holsteinKokito: o/06:13
Kokitohi holstein :)06:23
* ckontros waves: www.webupd8.org/2011/04/ubuntu-1110-will-not-ship-with-classic.html13:51
ckontros(confirms assumptions made during yesterdays chats)13:52
scott-upstairsanybody here for the meeting already?14:44
scott-upstairswe have about fifteen minutes i believe14:44
* ckontros is here.14:46
scott-upstairsthat's a quick agenda i knocked together14:50
holsteinscott-upstairs: thanks :)14:51
scott-upstairsholstein, i'm copying my that intro video to my website14:52
scott-upstairsbut it's going sssslllllooooowwwww :P14:52
holsteinscott-upstairs: i need to get that song written14:53
holsteinwell, recorded14:53
holsteinthe 'get it together' song 14:53
holsteinthat guitarman has to sing on :)14:53
scott-upstairswhich song is that, holstein ?14:54
scott-upstairsi would like guitarman to sing on it though, he's got a really good voice IMO14:54
scott-upstairsalthough the title reminds me of "come together" by the beatles14:54
holsteina song idea i had for an ubuntustudio promo thing14:54
scott-upstairswhich is a good thing also IMO14:54
scott-upstairsoh, groovy man14:54
holsteinive had it for a long time14:55
holsteinwhen you were talking first about the idea of a vid14:55
holsteinanyways... we'll see14:55
holsteinand it can be used for other things14:55
scott-upstairsany help that i might provide, just let me know, man14:55
* ckontros is here but floating in/out a little.14:56
holsteinckontros: thanks for looking that up14:58
holsteinabout gnome14:58
scott-upstairsit's meeting time, anyone else here but me, holstein, and cory?15:00
azmI'm here too15:00
scott-upstairslol, hi azm, thanks :)15:00
holsteinailo: ping-o-la ?15:00
holsteinpaultag: ?15:00
azmHi scott, np :)15:00
scott-upstairswhile we wait a few minutes for other people, here's a brief agenda:15:01
scott-upstairs* read agenda15:01
scott-upstairs* amendments15:01
scott-upstairs* note meeting time and recurrence15:01
scott-upstairs* -lowlatency kernel15:01
scott-upstairs* ubuntustudio-controls15:01
scott-upstairs* ubuntu studio future15:01
scott-upstairs* artwork15:01
scott-upstairs* website15:01
scott-upstairseffectively we have just completed "* read agenda"15:02
holsteinwell, any talk about the kernels?15:02
holsteinnot much we can do but note that here15:02
holsteinim still hoping that by 12.04, we can just use the -generic one15:03
scott-upstairsi had thought we would talk about it under "-lowlatency kernel" but i suppose i should have just left it as "kernel"15:03
holsteinits going to take more than the -generic kernel doing the job though15:03
scott-upstairsright, let's get going then15:03
holsteintheres a thread on the mailing list15:03
holsteinabout 10.10 not having -rt15:03
holsteinand my suggestiong of trying the -generic kernel was blown-off quite quickly15:04
azmwhat about ship the US with all three ?15:04
holsteini mean, the fact is, most users dont need latency below 20ms15:04
holsteinAND, the video-graphics folks are probabaly ok with -generic now15:05
holsteinazm: we *might* get -lowlatency pushed in the repos15:05
azmyeah, you could choose during installation process15:05
holsteini think thats more of a *probabaly*15:05
ckontrosholstein: Well, "users" depends on audience. Folks trying to replace Pro-Tools or your average new user. it makes a fifference who you target.15:06
scott-upstairsany amendments to the agenda, anything else people want to talk about?15:06
holsteinazm: i think for now, we are aiming for -lowlatency for 11.415:06
scott-upstairsi think holstein wants to add some other kernel talk :)15:06
scott-upstairsholstein, would it be okay if we discussed this under "lowlatency kernel"?15:06
scott-upstairsokay, i wanted to note we should be having this meeting regularly again15:06
ckontrosAnd yeah. Only -audio needs low latency.15:06
holsteinscott-upstairs: sure, i dont want to hi-jack15:06
holsteini thought this could be brainstorming15:06
scott-upstairswe can always build what we want to and keep it in a ppa though15:06
holsteinwhile we wait a bit15:06
holsteinfor others to come15:07
scott-upstairsholstein, nah, it's got momentum, just going with it15:07
holsteinsince, we literally cant do anything about the kernel 15:07
azmbtw, we skiped * amendments and * note meeting time and recurrence ?15:07
scott-upstairsi would like to push the -lowlatency kernel to the repos, use that as default kernel for ubuntustudio, and try to offer -rt kernel as possible in ppa15:07
holsteinscott-upstairs: i think thats a good goal15:08
ckontrosscott-upstairs:  +115:08
scott-upstairsazm, i can come back to those15:08
holsteinand do-able15:08
scott-upstairsi really feel that the -rt kernel is required at this moment for a majority of users who have firewire interfaces15:08
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Does Alessio have access to our PPA or does he still publish to his own?15:09
scott-upstairsthis might change if some of the kernel changes happen where the -generic might allow the resolution of irq conflicts with the -rt kernel15:09
holsteinckontros: there is no ubuntustudio ppa15:09
ckontrosActually, his can be testing and ours be stable.15:09
holsteinand should be, if possible15:09
scott-upstairsckontros, he currently pushes to his own, i do not know if he has access or not15:09
azmyou guys know the technical differences between rt and low ? I still haven't studied it.15:09
scott-upstairsckontros, yes, i like that15:09
holsteinazm: ailo is crazy on kernel testing15:09
holsteinif you get a minute to hang with hiim15:10
scott-upstairsholstein, i think ubuntustudo-dev does have a ppa15:10
holsteinscott-upstairs: but, the goal is to not do that right?15:10
holsteinso we can just pull from the main repo?15:10
holsteinat install?15:10
ckontrosholstein: Its a band-aid for now.15:10
scott-upstairsholstein, i think we can use the ubuntustudio-dev ppa for the -rt kernel15:10
scott-upstairssince it will not probably ever be in the repos again15:11
holsteinckontros: agreed15:11
holsteinscott-upstairs: yeah, and i think thats OK15:11
holsteinas long as -lowlatency is default15:11
holsteinOR -generic does the job15:11
holsteinout of the box15:11
scott-upstairsi think we could also add to ubuntustudio-default-settings to add the ppa automatically if desired15:11
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Well, it /could/ be. It was before and wasnt a nightmare for anyone. Just needs a good dedicated person to maintain.15:11
holsteinPPA's are easy for those users that need15:11
ckontrosWe can note on how to enable in the release notes.15:12
azmwell in my case generic cause a lot of xrunson my notebook so I switched to falktx rt15:12
holsteinazm: thats usually the case15:12
holsteinhowever, i have hardware that is quite opposite15:13
holsteinprobably due to the verion of the -generic kernel15:13
scott-upstairsthis may sound bourgeois, but should we support netbooks?  aren't they intentiontally underpowered and not necessarily for audio work?15:13
holsteinscott-upstairs: i use them quite often actually15:14
holsteinbut, i dont think we need to say anything about it either way15:14
ckontrosI would say no. If we had someone on the team just for it, sure. But with limited resources...15:14
holsteinits a low-powered machine15:14
holsteinif someone wants to mess around and get it working15:14
holsteinwhy not15:15
scott-upstairsi agree with ckontros about limited resources15:15
scott-upstairsof course if it works, then it works15:15
holsteinbut i dont think we need to say 'no netbook support'15:15
scott-upstairsbut conversely if it doesn't work, then perhaps it doesn't work15:15
ckontrosholstein:  agreed15:15
scott-upstairsso we agree to do "nothing" :P15:15
holsteineasy :)15:15
holsteinif i get bored15:16
holsteini'll try and put some documentation up about running what i run on netbooks15:16
scott-upstairsbut we probably should point out if asked about netbooks and people having problems, that they aren't our target hardware i guess15:16
azmwhat about proper jack-pulse support ?15:16
azmif I can ask now15:16
holsteinscott-upstairs: yeah, we should say 'runs great on netbooks and old hardware'15:16
holsteinazm: sure, you can ask15:17
scott-upstairsokay, i'm working with alessio on the -lowlatency kernel, we are waiting for 2.6.39 to get stable and will try to get it into ocelot15:17
scott-upstairspersia has agreed in the past to push the -lowlatency kernel into the repos without "permission" from UKT15:17
ckontrosAs he should.15:17
azmI have to basically download pulse-jack bridge from different distro to have sound15:17
scott-upstairsholstein, what do you mean "runs great on netbooks and old hardware"?15:17
ckontrosIts not their territory.15:17
holsteinwell, it *should* be cool15:17
azmno tutorials on this topic on US web15:18
holsteinscott-upstairs: shouldnt*15:18
holsteinsorry :)15:18
scott-upstairsckontros, there is a blueprint for kernels, it has the UKT coming with documentation about how to build/package a kernel derivative15:18
scott-upstairsckontros, it was a "great colloboration" between us and them15:18
scott-upstairsmy quotes and term15:18
holsteinazm: we'll get to that15:19
scott-upstairsat this point, however, it has completely failed because the documentation continues to remain forthcoming15:19
scott-upstairsi think persia has reached his limit and will move rather unilaterally now to push it into the repos :)15:19
scott-upstairssorry, azm, your question again?15:20
holsteinand Jfo comes in here from the UKT15:20
holsteinso, i dont think its going to be a big issue15:20
holsteinwe need it15:20
holsteinand its great that we are going to get it :)15:20
scott-upstairsholstein, as cory pointed out, it's not their perview if our kernel goes into multiverse, it's -motu15:20
scott-upstairsand persia is part of -motu15:21
holsteinscott-upstairs: azm is inquiring about the pulse-jack bridge15:21
azmscott-upstairs, np, I was asking of support pulseaudio and jack working together15:21
holsteinthat is not going to debian upstream15:21
scott-upstairsazm, are you saying that you do not have any sound at all with ubuntu studio?15:21
holsteinlast i heard falk talk about it15:21
holsteinthe pulse guys didnt like it15:21
holsteinbecause it kills pulse15:22
azmscott-upstairs, sure I have, but If I run jack then pa stop workin, if I stop jack pa will not start15:22
holsteinscott-upstairs: do we have plans of including that package?15:22
azmI know jack must be setup properly15:22
holsteinfalks pulse-jack thingy?15:22
scott-upstairsah, azm, i am assuming you have a single audio interface or you are trying to use a single audio interface to play streams from both pusle and jack?15:22
azmscott-upstairs, yes15:22
ckontrosThe pulse-jack thing has hounded us since pulse was introed. JACK in main was supposed to be our ticket. Since it hasnt happened, for whatever reason, I saw we push during 11.10 for a bit. If it doesnt happen, PPA it is.15:23
holsteini think its such a specialized need15:23
scott-upstairsbut jack is in the main15:23
azmwell I already figured how to get it working15:23
azmbut for beginners it could be pita15:23
azmbtw. does US have wiki?15:24
holsteinazm: IF its proper documentation15:24
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Yep. Which was supposed to allow us to enable JACK support in pulse.15:24
holsteinyou and i would set down and make a WIKI sometime15:24
holsteinmaybe you and I and [lsd]15:24
scott-upstairsckontros, ah, okay15:24
holstein[lsd] know the old method quite well15:24
holsteinand we can just make whatever WIKI we need15:24
holsteinthats what they are for15:24
scott-upstairsckontros, maybe we need to file another bug or if one exists we push that one15:25
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Im sure there's already several.15:25
holsteinckontros: its the pulse guys AFAIK15:25
holsteinthey dont have a JACK option15:25
scott-upstairsi'll check to see if a "enable JACK support in pulse" bug exists and see where they stand then15:25
holsteinthats where i think we should put the pressure15:25
holsteinif possible15:25
holsteinthat would make life SO much easier15:26
holsteinbut, there are issues with it15:26
scott-upstairsholstein, like what?15:26
holsteinpulse would have to stop15:26
holsteinand start again15:26
ckontrosholstein: Naa... Pulse guys wont do it. The JACK-Pulse stuff was written by las AFAIK.15:26
holsteinand they dont like that15:26
holsteinthey = pulse team15:26
scott-upstairslike falk's jack-bridge ?15:26
scott-upstairsckontros, who is las?15:26
holsteinhe said they were kinda pissed about it15:27
holsteinlas= paul davis15:27
scott-upstairsoh yeah15:27
holsteinstill, thats literally all it would take15:27
holsteinthe pulse guys to allow JACK support15:27
holsteinand boom15:27
holsteineverything is in the main repos15:27
scott-upstairswe could host falktx's jack-bridge in our ppa, like the -rt kernel?15:27
holsteinand it would just work15:27
holsteinscott-upstairs: that would be easy15:27
ckontrosbug 10965915:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 109659 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "jack sink missing in pulseaudio" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/10965915:28
holsteinfalk already has documentation15:28
ckontrosbug 48010315:28
ubottuLaunchpad bug 480103 in jack-audio-connection-kit (Ubuntu) "Pulseaudio not working while jackd is running" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/48010315:28
holsteinabout how to add it to ubuntu15:28
scott-upstairsit says "fix released", ergo we don't actually have a problem ;)15:28
holsteini think jack sink missing in pulseaudio should be the one15:28
ckontrosum,, yeah. ;)15:28
holsteini personally could care less15:28
holsteini stop JACK15:28
holsteinand watch whatever15:29
holsteini dont need JACK + web15:29
holsteinbut, it would be nice15:29
holsteinfor some15:29
scott-upstairsi'll crawl through launchpad more in the coming week and follow up with the bugs and see where they are at, and see who i need to bug about it15:29
holsteinyeah, lets just think about if we want the bridge in the PPA15:29
scott-upstairsbut we should have an alternative solution (if possible) if the we aren't able to enable jack support in pulse15:29
holsteinand azm, ask me sometime15:30
holsteinand we'll make some documentation15:30
ckontrosholstein: Sure. But that's where our "audience" comes in. Personally, during my "reign" :P advanced users were the focus.15:30
ckontrosBut new users dont know why things dont work together.15:30
scott-upstairsjust wanted to note as well, that this meeting is recurring each month on the first sunday of the month at this same time15:30
holsteinyup :)15:30
scott-upstairsif anyone is having problems with the date or time, please let us know and we will see what we can do15:30
scott-upstairsalright, moving onto ubuntustudio-controls15:31
azmalso I would replace zynadd with yoshimi15:31
holsteinazm: thats happening15:31
scott-upstairsalready done in natty, azm15:31
scott-upstairsthey are borked right now, current functionality is either not necessary anymore or broken15:31
azmoh, nice15:31
holsteinpaultag and ailo are working on studio controls right?15:31
scott-upstairsailo and paultag have been working on it :)15:32
scott-upstairslol holstein 15:32
holsteinyeah, i wanted to say thanks officially to them15:32
scott-upstairsbut we don't have a stable build yet and therefore nothing to build a diff from to push into the repos for natty15:32
azmis there some audio app extension program? Like if you adding some new valuable software to dvd ?15:32
scott-upstairsso, the new target is ocelot for the -controls update15:32
holsteinscott-upstairs: i think thats fine15:33
scott-upstairsazm, can you explain that a little more expansively?  i'm not sure i understand your question15:33
holsteinwe can get by with what we need in natty as-is15:33
scott-upstairsholstein, agreed15:33
holsteinand maybe the controls get moved to XFCE or whatever15:33
scott-upstairshowever, themuso assured me that we can SRU -controls back into natty as required even if it is pulled from the seeds15:33
scott-upstairsand i did ask themuso to remove -controls from the seeds15:34
holsteinanother offical thanks there too then15:34
scott-upstairsailo has expressed concerns about trying to get eh updated -controls back into maverick and lucid and they have broken -controls currently as well15:34
scott-upstairsagree holstein :)15:34
holsteini like that we seem to be more able to be flexible15:34
holsteinand thats what we need right now15:34
scott-upstairsnext topic, is ubuntu studio's future in regards to gnome and unity15:35
azmscott-upstairs, like eg. adding up to date new ladspa, lv2 plugins, mayne vst support15:35
scott-upstairssomething that ckontros has expressed some concerns15:35
holsteinazm: that should be coming to the repos soon15:35
scott-upstairsazm, for ladspa, lv2...you only need to add the package from synaptic or software center, the plugins will be installed and usable then15:36
holsteinazm: i say, keep an eye on what you are interested in15:36
holsteinand lets track them upstream15:36
holsteinand get more pro-active if needed15:36
scott-upstairsvst support is a different beast, azm, due to licensing15:36
holsteinyeah, we dont need that15:36
azmthats sounds good15:37
holsteini would like to go on record as being a dick about vst support15:37
scott-upstairsazm, or are you saying updates to existing lv2 plugins, version 3.1 of foo, rather than 3.0 of foo15:37
scott-upstairslol holstein 15:37
azmIm no fan of it either15:37
ckontroshaha. VSTs. Will they ever stop being an issue. :P15:37
holsteinwith the work that falk is doing15:37
holsteinit should be easy to add that functionality if needed15:38
scott-upstairswhy do you say that holstein ?15:38
scott-upstairsdo you mean his work with cadence?15:38
azmscott-upstairs, yep, and adding some new creations like IR15:38
holsteinfalk seems to add support for VST's when possible15:38
azmbut thats maybe off topic as it is some beta version15:38
azmthat wa just example15:38
scott-upstairsazm, that's a multifaceted question, but i'll be brief15:38
holsteinmaybe its just certain ones15:38
scott-upstairsazm, brand new plugins (ladspa or lv2) need to be packaged15:39
scott-upstairsbut they also need to be packaged and built for the appropriate release of ubuntu/ubuntu studio15:39
scott-upstairsonce they are, then we can see about putting them into studio15:39
scott-upstairsazm, does that help somewhat?15:39
holsteinyeah, and right now, we are more in the mode of putting out fires15:39
holsteinsince, when those builds break, its scott-upstairs fixing them15:40
holsteinand whoever he can rope into helping him ;)15:40
scott-upstairsheh, sadly very true about putting out fires15:40
ailoSorry, I missed the meeting. I'm here now. Reading the scroll15:40
holsteinadding packages right now is not where we are15:40
holsteinhopefully by 12.04 though15:40
holsteinwe can have resources for maintainting packages15:40
scott-upstairsckontros, do you want to take lead on this?15:40
holsteinyup :)15:41
azmscott-upstairs, yes. So for some other updates ppa is the place where to search addition stuff during next release period15:41
holsteinailo: no worries 15:41
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Sure. It will mostly be a recap of yesterday.15:41
ckontrosSo, in tinkering yesterday it looks like rebasing on XFCE is viable.15:42
ckontrosThat is, if thats the direction the team wants to go in.15:42
holsteini like that idea15:42
holsteini think we should entertain that15:42
holsteinlike the live installer15:42
holsteinreally think about all the implications15:42
holsteinand make sure its something we can live with for years15:43
ckontrosLXDE is also an option but I feel integration/UI consistency will be harder.15:43
holsteinckontros: i agree15:43
holsteinckontros: any idea on the longevity of XFCE ?15:43
holsteinseems like a well maintained project when i check in on it15:43
ckontrosUsing XFCE also gives us a slightly larger -dev team as we will have to work with Xubuntu.15:43
scott-upstairsbacking up a bit:  there is a confluence of situations that is causing us to look at other alternatives for a DE and windows managers15:43
scott-upstairscanonical/ubuntu moving to unity and then waylaynd15:44
scott-upstairsgnome 3 coming out with single app focus like unity15:44
scott-upstairsthey are not conducive for a studio environment15:44
holsteini dont think XFCE is challenging though15:44
holsteinnot like KDE can be15:44
ckontrosCanonical ditching the "classic" GNOME option for 11.1015:44
holsteincoming from gnome*15:44
holsteinKDE or LXDE or soemthing like fluxbox15:44
holsteini feel those are a lot different than gnome15:45
scott-upstairsckontros, are they not even providing gnome-classic at 11.10, they have stated this somewhere?15:45
holsteinand XFCE should be easier15:45
holsteinno matter what, we are going to hear about it ;)15:45
holsteinim +1 on XFCE15:45
ckontrosReady for me to continue?15:46
scott-upstairswell, it appears that jono was wrong about ubuntu always providing gnome :/15:46
scott-upstairsckontros, sure15:46
holsteinwell, i think gnome3 will be in the repos15:46
ckontrosSo if there's a consensus on XFCE, a UI direction should be tinkered with.15:46
ckontrosI'm advocating a single, AWN across the bottom.15:47
holsteinckontros: avant?15:47
scott-upstairsi agree with xfce, it has numerous advantages that lxde or others do not have15:47
holsteindoes that still require 3d ?15:47
ckontrosYes. Avant. Simple, gives the most screenspace and does everything and more a panel does.15:48
ckontrosholstein: XFCE can do sw composite.15:48
ckontros(last i knew anyway)15:48
holsteinckontros: i would like to see some overhead on avant15:48
scott-upstairshttp://imagebin.org/146291  this is currently xfce from live cd, notice the bottom AWN panel15:48
holsteini remember when i was using it15:48
holsteinit seemed heavy15:48
holsteinthat was 9.10 though i bet15:48
ckontrosAnd my simple testing from yesterday: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6728/screenshotoof.png15:49
holsteini went to wbar15:49
holsteinthen, i just started using gnome-do15:49
holsteinckontros: im not opposed though15:49
holsteini think AWN does look modern15:49
holsteinand thats what we need i think15:49
holsteinif we go to XFCE15:49
scott-upstairsi like ckontros 's screenshot, even better if the AWN panel is set to autohide15:49
holsteinand have a really slick looking DE15:49
ailoXFCE is nice, but in some way, it would feel like more of a safe choice, than a preferred choice.15:50
holstein^ if anybody still says that ;p15:50
ckontrosholstein: There's some graphic to tinkering to do but its the least of our issues. ;)15:50
ckontrosSo +'s to XFCE?15:50
holsteinyup +115:50
holsteini say, +1 even if gnome2 is sticking around15:51
ailoI'm still not sure. But, perhaps XFCE is the smartest choice, at least for 11.1015:51
ckontrosOk. In the coming weeks I'll start a BZR branch to start testing.15:51
scott-upstairsckontros, i wonder if we might convince some xubuntu developers might help us figure out a way to do software selection during installation15:51
scott-upstairsincidentally, this would give us the live dvd option i believe15:51
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Im sure they would. I'll reach out to them soon.15:52
ckontrosscott-upstairs: After 11.04. A Planet note will also be good. But not till after Natty releases.15:52
scott-upstairsckontros, absolutely :)15:52
jussiooh, its a ckontros!15:53
scott-upstairsckontros, but this will give us a live dvd, will it not?15:53
ckontrosBAM! :)15:53
ckontrosHi Jussi15:53
holsteinjussi: o/15:53
scott-upstairshi jussi15:53
jussicripes, everyones awake15:53
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Well, that's a different issue. It comes down to *if* you want one.15:53
jussickontros: you are probably interested in the new Qt app - tomahawk15:54
jussiits brilliant15:54
scott-upstairsright, so ckontros will work on this more and talk to the xubuntu people and see if we can forge a relationship15:54
ckontrosscott-upstairs:  we'd also have to work with the Edubuntu guys on install options.15:54
scott-upstairsi'll do a post about it after natty comes out15:54
scott-upstairsyes! ckontros, they've done some cool stuff :)15:54
ckontrosjussi: Seen it. :P15:54
jussickontros: seen, or used? 15:55
ckontrosjussi:  Just seen. But we're /tryin'/ ta have a meetin'!! :P15:55
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Ok. So thats 2 groups to reach out to.15:56
jussickontros: oh, my apologies, just walked in15:56
scott-upstairsdo we have anymore to say about ubuntu studio and gnome/unity/xfce ?15:56
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Maybe we get together a tri-team meeting. E/X/US-devs?15:57
scott-upstairsckontros, that is a great idea, is that something you can coordinate?15:57
ailoI would like to investigate gnome 3 and Unity more. I wonder if there will be a Ubuntu 11.10 version using Gnome 3, like Xubuntu or Kubunt.15:58
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Sure. But remind me after release. I wanna let the focus continue to be on Natty for those teams.15:58
holsteinailo: gubuntu or whatever15:58
holsteini bet15:58
scott-upstairsckontros, absolutely15:58
scott-upstairsailo, fedora has a live gnome3 disc available15:59
ckontrosailo: Doubtful. Unity is Canonicals focus and K/X will most likelt stick with what they have.15:59
scott-upstairsgnome3 thought tends to have a single app focus though15:59
ckontrosIt will most likly be Mint or something that goes GNOME3.15:59
scott-upstairsNEW TOPIC:  WEBSITE UPDATE15:59
scott-upstairsi was hoping that jorge (kokito i believe) would be here :(16:00
scott-upstairsbut then neither is david or stochastic, so it's a matched set :P16:00
ailoscott-upstairs, I am trying it out now. I haven't even tried Unity much. I know very little about them, and the way things are going, with Wayland, QT, X, one wonders how things will look like in the future16:00
ailoI'm not against single app focus, if it is practical. I've sometimes thought about that16:01
scott-upstairsailo, from my limited exposure to them i found that they are not conducive to studio work especially when working with midi sequencers and synths16:01
scott-upstairsfor the website update, i've posted another email per jorge's question about the purpose of the website update16:02
scott-upstairsi hope that helps those involved understand where i think we should be heading16:02
scott-upstairsof course i also said that i don't develop website and if i'm wrong with some of my comments, please correct me16:03
* ckontros is away for a sec16:03
scott-upstairsthere is an example of the current version of the updated website16:03
scott-upstairsthis is it:  http://mousike.dyndns.org/ubuntustudio/16:04
scott-upstairsi've already noted that i think we should be using the vertical spacing better, especially for laptop/netbook users16:04
holsteinyeah, i remember that suggestion16:05
holsteinand agree16:05
* ckontros notes the tagline should be lower case, the blue is, "wrong" (unless its a design choice) and it feels, less, "professional" that the old site. :(16:07
scott-upstairsckontros, this was the other option that people voted on:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp#Audio%20Horizons%20v216:08
holsteinckontros: the mailing list is really where most of the website work happens16:08
ckontrosSomething along Horizons v2 would be my vote also.16:09
holsteini think kokito can really add some polish :)16:09
ailoSince there's probably going to be a new theme for 10.10, we could let the website use colors from the new theme.16:09
scott-upstairsi voted for horizons myself as well16:10
ckontrosI dont think its 100%, but better than the other IMO.16:10
scott-upstairsi thought the dark horizons looked pretty good and matched our theme pretty well16:10
ckontrosWe should also see how the new "ubuntu" font would look used there.16:11
ailoWhen should the new site be published? Is there a time set for that?16:12
ckontros"Impact" /could/ work with some revamp. But Horizons I feel makes a better initial impact.16:13
holsteini think we are on a 'when its ready' kinda thing16:13
ckontrosailo: I would push for 11.10 release.16:13
scott-upstairsckontros, since there is not much movement on the impact theme, you want me to talk to the horizon guys and see what could be worked up16:13
ailockontros, +1 to that16:13
ckontrosscott-upstairs: Sounds reasonable.16:14
scott-upstairsailo, it was loosely hoped to coincide with natty release, but that isn't going to happen since the development has been really, really slow :P16:14
scott-upstairsckontros, i will do that then16:14
scott-upstairsckontros, would you like to be included on the emails to provide some artistic feedback?  i'll do all the logistics and coordinating16:16
ckontrosscott-upstairs: What list is the chat on?16:16
scott-upstairsit would probably be a mixture of direct and the -dev mailing list16:17
scott-upstairsdirect just to make sure they see the email :P16:17
ckontrosIll sub to -dev again.16:17
scott-upstairsany other comments or concerns in relation to the meeting?16:18
scott-upstairsif not, we can conclude the meeting16:18
ckontrosNot here.16:18
holsteinyeah, i have one16:19
ckontrosAnyone don't know how I am? err.. was?16:19
holsteini might talk more to Daviey about getting a mootbot in here16:19
holsteinfor the meetings16:19
holsteinif no objections ?16:19
ckontrosI realize I didnt inro myself to a couple of folks. :P16:19
holsteintalk to Daviey more*16:19
holsteinckontros: go for it16:19
scott-upstairsi think ckontros is a legend myself16:19
holsteinckontros: glad you're here :)16:20
scott-upstairsholstein, i think that would be a good idea, it would certainly with minutes for meetings, especially if we are getting into regular meetings again16:20
ckontrosI just noticed some new folks.16:20
ckontrosDidnt want anyone to be like: "Who the fuck is this guy?" :P16:20
scott-upstairsckontros, do you want to mention some of your background with studio?16:20
scott-upstairshi Kokito !16:20
Kokitosorry I am late for the meeting16:21
scott-upstairswe were just about to wrap it up, but we can talk about the website stuff if you want16:21
ailockontros, I've been around since the beginning of Natty development. I realize there are some people I haven't met yet. I'm a musician / Linux enthusiast, just hanging around, helping if I can, hoping not to screw anything up.16:22
scott-upstairsactually, ailo is a HUGE asset to the team, he's really dove into many things and helped quite a bit16:22
scott-upstairsKokito, did you get my email about goals of the website?16:22
ckontros(got the wiki is slow)16:23
holsteinKokito: hello again :)16:23
Kokitoscott-upstairs: I will meed another 10 minutes or so before I can chat. sorry...16:23
holsteinwe're about to the end here, but you and scott-upstairs can touch base it seems16:23
scott-upstairsfor those who don't know ckontros, cory kontros was probably the most active project lead and major force of will for ubuntu studio16:23
scott-upstairsubuntu studio certainly wouldn't exist as it does today without cory16:24
scott-upstairsi believe he also had a very heavy hand in developing the current dark theme16:24
holsteinwhich is awesome :)16:24
azmtheme is nice really.16:24
ckontrosJesus. I cant bring up my wiki page to save my life.16:25
scott-upstairsi've also had problem with the wiki where it times out or something and won't bring up the page16:25
ckontroshttps://launchpad.net/~coryisatm and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CKontros16:25
scott-upstairsholstein, http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/video/intro0001-7275.ogg is my video i'm working on in blender16:26
scott-upstairsit's still very rough, but you should get the idea16:26
holsteinnice :)16:27
holsteini need a horn section for the tune i have16:27
scott-upstairsckontros, have you seen this theme:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=13287516:27
holsteinmaybe i can talk the guys im playing with wednesday into playing the part real quick16:27
holsteinand i can paste it around16:28
ckontrosOk. I got some stuff to do. scott-upstairs: Ill chime in on anything you need me to if you post to the list.16:28
scott-upstairsckontros, right, thanks for coming to the meeting :)16:28
holsteinckontros: yeah, thanks :)16:28
ckontrosIll look over the theme.16:28
holsteinscott-upstairs: thats going to be very helpful16:28
scott-upstairsi need to leave as well, the kids are starting to kill each other16:28
holsteinyeah, i gotta watch some TV16:28
holsteinand kick back16:29
scott-upstairsholstein, i hope so, it targets comletely new people to help educate them on why ubuntu studio is something they should download and use :)16:29
holsteinthis is my first day off in weeks :)16:29
scott-upstairsi'll still check in on ScottL from time to time throughout the day as usual16:29
holsteingreat meeting guys 16:29
holsteinthanks ailo Kokito azm & jussi 16:30
azmIm here more as a newbie-user not dev guy16:31
azmhope its ok16:31
ScottLazm, absolutely :)16:31
holsteinyeah, me too azm16:31
ailoXFCE, hmm. I hope at least we can get everything else together for 11.10. -lowlatency, -controls and even a new theme.16:32
ailoAnd documentation16:32
holsteinailo: if we miss most of that16:32
holsteinand it spurs some community envolvment16:32
holsteini say thats good enough :)16:32
ailoazm, You asked about the difference between -rt and -lowlatency, right?16:33
azmailo, yep, Im interested 16:33
ailo-rt is an Ubuntu specific kernel with added source. So, it's a realtime kernel, but using Ubuntu specific code16:34
ailo-realtime is a vanilla kernel, with the realtime patch. It's also a realtime kernel, but not Ubuntu specific.16:34
ailo-lowlatency is exactly the same as -generic, but is compiled using a different configuration16:35
azmailo, I see, and are there some disadvantages in security or in different area using realtime kernel ?16:36
ScottLbut the patch for real-time isn't available for every kernel version or point release16:38
ailoMore and more of the realtime patch is being included into the main kernel source.16:39
AnAntHello, is there some sort of setting (gconf maybe) to change the default session to Classic instead of Unity ? 16:40
holsteinailo: do you know how we did that?16:40
holsteinin natty?16:40
ScottLKokito, when ever you are ready to talk about the website, just let me know (this is scott-upstairs, but down "downstairs")16:40
holsteingnome be default16:40
ScottLAnAnt, when you are loggin in you set it16:40
ScottLAnAnt, when you pick your name at the login in screen, and BEFORE you enter password16:41
holsteinScottL: more in a building sense16:41
ScottLAnAnt, look down at the bottom of the screen, there is an option for setting the session16:41
AnAntScottL: I am working on a derivative distro, and I want the default setting to be Classic instead of Unity16:41
ScottLAnAnt, choose the "ubuntu classic desktop"16:41
ScottLAnAnt, i cannot answer for a derivative of ubuntu studio, you should contact that maintainer16:42
AnAntderivative of Ubuntu actually16:42
ailoazm, I consider a realtime kernel a little experimental. From what I understand, the realtime kernel is 100% deterministic with latency, which -generic is not, but in practice, -lowlatency is virtually as good as a realtime kernel, in most cases.16:42
AnAntScottL: I was told that Ubuntu Studio did that16:42
holsteini grabbed AnAnt because we dont boot into untity16:42
holsteinby default16:42
ScottLAnAnt, but i can assure you, it is not a gconf settings, unity is a completely different xsession than gnome16:43
ScottLit's very aking to the differences between xfce, kde, and gnome16:43
ailoholstein, What do you mean? Including realtime code into the main kernel source?16:43
AnAntScottL: ah, thanks16:43
ScottLand it functions similarly as to how you can choose between the three during login16:43
holsteinailo: nah, im on this other thing16:44
ScottLAnAnt, i'm sorry that i could not be of better help16:44
AnAntScottL: no worries16:44
ailoholstein, Ok. No, I wasn't involved in that16:44
azmailo, ok, thanks16:45
KokitoScottL: I am ready, sorry for the long wait16:56
KokitoScottL: I read your summary on the website in the mailing list16:56
KokitoI guess my first question would be: specifically about the theme, I have a question: what is the motivation to move away from the current website theme?16:58
ScottLKokito, any concerns, questions, suggestions, random statements16:58
ScottLokay, the current website hasn't been updating in a long time16:59
ScottLwe felt that as long as we were going to update it we might as well put forward a new theme16:59
ScottLi don't really care which way we go (as long as someone isn't suggestions a My Little Pony theme)16:59
ScottLbut the point is, i want a website that will encourage people to use it and that is functional17:00
KokitoI think there are two aspects17:00
Kokitoone is the structure of the website, how to develop it ideally to meet your goals in terms of appealing to your target audience17:01
Kokitothe other is the theme, that is, the looks. this one should be one component of your overall identity or brand17:01
Kokitoabout the former, I think what you described in your email seems fine17:01
ScottLgood :)17:02
Kokitothere seem to be som decisions to make, like whether to go with the Ubuntu wiki/forums or have your own, but that's not a technical issue17:02
KokitoDrupal can accomodate both wiki-style content and forums as well17:02
Kokitoon the latter, I am not sure what your goal is in terms of brand, so it is hard to comment17:03
Kokitoand by latter, I mean the theme17:03
ScottLKokito, to be honest, if it is less work (certainly less invasive) to keep the current theme and modify it, then by all means, that's the way to go17:03
ScottLbecuase currently, progress is simply not happening17:03
KokitoI am willing to put the work on developing a new theme17:03
Kokitobut I need to understand the brand where it has to fit into17:04
ScottLas for developing a goal in terms of branding, i haven't really explored that17:04
Kokitoshort of that, I could come up with something and see if it sticks :)17:04
ScottLdid you look at the two other themes that were proposed?17:04
ScottLdo you have comments on those?17:04
ScottLi'm not suggesting that we follow those, i'm just curious on your thoughts17:04
KokitoI saw the one that was linked to from the mailing list and, to be honest, I think the current theme and colors are much better17:05
Kokitolet me pull it out to see if I can give you some specific input17:07
Kokitothis one: http://mousike.dyndns.org/ubuntustudio/17:07
Kokitofirst impression is that it is too monotone17:08
KokitoIMHO, it does not convey an image of playfulness and creatitivy17:09
KokitoI do like to text logo :)17:09
Kokitobeing monotone, it really lacks visual impact17:10
KokitoUbuntuStudio is supposed to be a tool for creators, so I visualize something with much more visual impact and whizzbang factor :)17:11
ScottLsorry,was away17:13
ScottLKokito, the text logo is something that cory and i worked up together :)17:13
KokitoI like it :)17:13
ScottLKokito, i agree with lack of colors, i think dark, right colors offset against a black background would be nice17:13
ScottLbut i'm not a graphic designer, cory is much, much better than it17:14
Kokitois the current website running on Drupal? if so, do we know what version?17:14
ailoKokito, It's on my server, so I can provide you with access and info17:15
Kokitoailo: that would be nice17:16
ScottLKokito, the current version is on drupal but i don't know which version17:16
ailoKokito, I need to look up some things. I can mail you the info later, if that's ok.17:16
ScottLKokito, ailo :  the one on ailo's server is not the current site, it is the mock up17:17
Kokitoailo: sounds like a plan :)17:17
ailoOh, I see17:17
ailoYou were talking about the current version17:17
ScottLKokito, if you would to create a branding idea, that would be awesome :)17:17
KokitoScottL: I can try17:17
ScottLKokito, currently only one person has access to the current site on the canonical-hosted website, i'm trying to get it but it might be a month more before they send it to me17:18
KokitoScottL: just to give you an idea, I developed the Haiku identity, which you can see here: https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/MyHaikuArtwork#17:18
KokitoScottL: sounds like it would be better to host the site ourselves17:19
ailoSince I already setup a Drupal thing on my server, I won't mind if it used for mockups later on as well. I think my Drupal version is 6.2017:24
KokitoScottL: would hosting the site independently pose a problem in regards to the relationship with Canonical?17:24
Kokitoailo: cool. 6.20 is the lastes D6 rev17:25
Kokitoailo: I do my development locally17:25
Kokitowhen I have something to show, we can put it up online17:25
ailoKokito, Just let me know if you need my server for that, then.17:26
ScottLsorry, back again17:26
ScottLKokito, your not the first one to push hosting ourselves, it's just a matter of identifying where the funds will come17:27
ScottLi don't mind springing for hosting, but i don't want to maintain it indefintely17:28
ScottLwith canonical, it's free hosting for the unforseeable future17:28
KokitoScottL: I understand17:29
Kokitoit's just so much more flexible when you run it yourself17:30
ScottLKokito, that is very, very true :)17:30
Kokitoand I hear it is pretty difficult to get Canonical to respond on website hosting issues17:30
ScottLi had wanted to sell ubuntu studio merchandise and use those proceeds to fund some develop and also hosting17:30
ScottLKokito, yes, it takes a lot of time :/17:30
KokitoScottL: I started the Haiku store on CafePress, so I am familiar with that aspect as well17:31
Kokitoincluding integrating it into Drupal17:31
ScottLKokito, i asked canonical about merchandise and received a rather long and indefitinitive answer17:35
ScottLbut i believe the short answer was "no"17:35
ScottLso we don't have that vector for funding :(17:35
KokitoScottL: unless you change the name and create your own brand17:36
ScottLthat's true, but then we lose the building process, which is all canonical/ubuntu automated building17:37
ScottLnot to mention their iso hosting and bandwidth17:37
ScottLi've given thought to this before17:37
KokitoI see17:37
ScottLwe could separate from ubuntu and rename/rebrand but i think we aren't setup for it as well17:38
ScottLthe ubuntu studio team is pretty small and still pretty new to development17:38
ScottLi would say that that most if not practically all of the "old guard" who were experienced and knowledge have moved on to other things17:39
ScottLor are just peripherally involved when asked directly17:39
ScottLbut i offer this...17:39
ScottLif we have a website that is ready to implement and we cannot move forward because of canonical,17:39
ScottL(especially given that i've been trying to get proper access to the site for months)17:40
ScottLwe will host ourselves even if i have to dip into my personal "fun stuff" cache and pay for a year or two of hosting17:40
ScottLi say "i've been trying for months" which isn't to lay all the blame at their feet,17:41
ScottLi had requested the access, waited a month or more and got the code, but it was gpg'd using an older key of mine17:41
ScottLso that is my fault17:41
ScottLbut i've asked for it again, while explaining the problem and expressing that it was my fault, but that's been probably over a month ago17:41
KokitoScottL: if it comes to that, I am pretty sure we can find hosting without having to dip into our own pockets :)17:42
Kokitobtw, ScottL , I am pretty sure Kubuntu has a store of their own17:42
ScottLKokito, but also we have someone who _does_ have access on the team, although he has seemed to disappear for several months, but pops up every now and then and says he wants to help :/17:42
ScottLKokito, i thought i looked at the kubuntu store and determined that it was acutally still the canonical store, but i could be wrong17:43
ScottLi'll look again later17:43
KokitoScottL: I am pretty sure there is a case to make with Canonical about selling merchandise to raise funds for the project17:47
ScottLoh, i would love too, even if we shared the revenue17:47
ScottLi think it would be minor though, *shrug* but i could be wrong about that as well17:48
ScottLi know *i* would buy some stuff ;)17:48
ScottLKokito, i'd like to summarize our discussion in email and include cory on it17:48
ScottLhe's really the creative and artistic force in ubuntu studio17:48
Kokitosounds good ScottL 17:49
ScottLthat's not to say that dick macinnis (the new art lead) isn't creative or artistic, he just hasn't made himself felt yet since he just started17:49
ScottLcory is the one that pretty much by shear force of will, got ubuntu studio off the ground (of course based on work others had started)17:49
ScottLand cory has a definitive eye about design17:50
KokitoScottL: sounds good17:50
ScottLi think it's rather telling that you and cory both have made almost the same comments about our existing website17:50
KokitoI will wait for his response before I dig into the new theme then :)17:50
ScottLokay, i'll send it in a few hours, need to do stuff with family17:50
Kokitosame here :)17:50
Kokitoenjoy your Sunday!17:50
Kokitooh, a last one before I go: can you make the IRC log available somewhere>17:51
Kokitowould like to read through it to pickup what was discussed in detail17:51
ScottLKokito, they logs are, well, logged18:15
ScottLi post the link 18:15
ScottLlook for ubuntustudio-dev down very close to the bottom18:16
ScottLyou can choose either html or txt18:16
ScottLtxt is just text, black and white18:17
ScottLhtml has nice colors, one consistent color for each individual18:17
Kokitothanks ScottL 18:50
KokitoI wonder if the Horizon theme that you guys were talking about on the meeting is something like this > http://drupal.org/project/newhorizon18:50
Kokitoah, never mind. saw the mockups in the wiki18:52
ScottLKokito, email sent, kinda wandering, but just wanted to get something rolling while i had time to sit down and write it19:28
ronjI'm testing todays isos21:54
ronjcouldn't install from the iso, after selecting "install ubuntu studio" the only thing I have is a black screen. maybe I borked the iso to usb, will try again this evening or during the week21:55
ronjand unfortunately I'm unable to install abogani's lowlatency because of missing headers :-/21:57
ronjsudo apt-get install linux-lowlatency linux-headers-lowlatency linux-headers-2.6.38-8-lowlatency21:57
ronjThe following packages have unmet dependencies:21:57
ronj linux-headers-2.6.38-8-lowlatency : Depends: linux-headers-2.6.38-8 but it is not installable21:57
ronjScottL, holstein, do you think I should ask abogani for an update of his ppa?21:58
ailo_ronj, Did you install from usb stic?22:00
ronjailo_, yes22:00
ronjknown problem?22:00
ailo_ronj, Did you solve it? I had to install ubuntustudio-desktop from recovery mode. Only the base system was installed. 22:01
ailo_ronj, I suppose it is not meant to work from usb stick. I used unetbootin.22:01
ronjailo_, no I just ended up installing ubuntu normal and adding ubuntustudio packages22:02
ronjailo_, yes it should work fine with usb-creator-gtk22:02
ronjit's the first time it fails for me...22:02
ronjbut again, maybe i just borked the setup to usb, i'll try again before reporting a problem with the iso22:03
ailo_ronj, Well, there are two of us now, who had that problem. The screen shut itself off after bootin? 22:03
ronjwell I have the ustudio menu, press ENTER to install, then nothing happens22:04
ronjailo_, same symptoms for you?!22:04
ronji don't remember whether the screen did shut down22:05
ailo_ronj, Oh, sorry. I misread before22:05
ailo_ronj, I thought you had installed. I did, using unetbootin, but not everything was installed. However, installing to Virtualbox was no problem22:05
ailo_ronj, I don't remember clearly, but I think using usb-creator-gtk has failed for me before, why I automatically thought it would not work22:06
ronjok, i'll try unetbootin22:07
ailo_ronj, Which version of Ubuntustudio has worked for you in the past?22:08
ronjuh.... from 6.06 to now?22:08
ronjdon't know22:08
ronjbut again, it works now22:09
ronjit's just that _maybe_ there is a problem with the iso22:09
ailo_ronj, I have still not had it working for me a single time, but I have not tried that many times22:10
ronjwhat is "it"?22:10
ailo_Installing from usb, or even creating the usb-installer22:11
ailo_So, that was also my question about versions. Which version of Ubuntu Studio has worked installing from usb...22:12
ronjhmmmm at least 9.something22:12
ronji've been installing all my oses (windows, linux) exclusively from usb for a few years22:13
ailo_It's really nice to get rid of those CD's and DVD's22:15
ailo_I quit installing Ubuntu Studio from DVD when it happened to often that the DVD was corrupt. At least 1/2 of the burns would fail for me22:16
ailo_ScottL, I believe https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Upgrade%20from%20Ubuntu is getting some attention because of it's irrelevancy. I did a couple of small edits, but that page should really be rewritten from scratch. I'm thinking what would be the best strategy for keeping info on older releases. The last few releases all have a slightly different setup.22:55
ailo_I suppose there could be chapter for each release..22:55
ailo_ScottL, On the "documentation api" we could decide on what strategy to use for multiple releases. 23:00
ScottLi agree with that :)23:05
ScottLailo_, i'll start looking at it tonight23:05
ailo_I still haven't tried Gnome 3. For some reason novaeau drivers don't play well with my graphic card :(23:36
ailo_nouveau* ?23:36
ailoScottL, I don't agree that Gnome 3 has a single app focus.23:54

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