[06:13] Kokito: o/ [06:23] hi holstein :) [13:51] * ckontros waves: www.webupd8.org/2011/04/ubuntu-1110-will-not-ship-with-classic.html [13:52] (confirms assumptions made during yesterdays chats) [14:44] anybody here for the meeting already? [14:44] we have about fifteen minutes i believe [14:46] * ckontros is here. [14:47] o/ [14:50] sweet [14:50] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011Apr3 [14:50] that's a quick agenda i knocked together [14:51] scott-upstairs: thanks :) [14:52] holstein, i'm copying my that intro video to my website [14:52] but it's going sssslllllooooowwwww :P [14:53] scott-upstairs: i need to get that song written [14:53] well, recorded [14:53] the 'get it together' song [14:53] that guitarman has to sing on :) [14:54] which song is that, holstein ? [14:54] i would like guitarman to sing on it though, he's got a really good voice IMO [14:54] although the title reminds me of "come together" by the beatles [14:54] a song idea i had for an ubuntustudio promo thing [14:54] which is a good thing also IMO [14:54] oh, groovy man [14:55] ive had it for a long time [14:55] when you were talking first about the idea of a vid [14:55] anyways... we'll see [14:55] and it can be used for other things [14:55] any help that i might provide, just let me know, man [14:56] :) [14:56] * ckontros is here but floating in/out a little. [14:58] ckontros: thanks for looking that up [14:58] about gnome [14:58] np [15:00] it's meeting time, anyone else here but me, holstein, and cory? [15:00] I'm here too [15:00] lol, hi azm, thanks :) [15:00] ailo: ping-o-la ? [15:00] paultag: ? [15:00] Hi scott, np :) [15:01] while we wait a few minutes for other people, here's a brief agenda: [15:01] * read agenda [15:01] * amendments [15:01] * note meeting time and recurrence [15:01] * -lowlatency kernel [15:01] * ubuntustudio-controls [15:01] * ubuntu studio future [15:01] * artwork [15:01] * website [15:02] effectively we have just completed "* read agenda" [15:02] :) [15:02] well, any talk about the kernels? [15:02] not much we can do but note that here [15:03] im still hoping that by 12.04, we can just use the -generic one [15:03] i had thought we would talk about it under "-lowlatency kernel" but i suppose i should have just left it as "kernel" [15:03] its going to take more than the -generic kernel doing the job though [15:03] right, let's get going then [15:03] theres a thread on the mailing list [15:03] about 10.10 not having -rt [15:04] and my suggestiong of trying the -generic kernel was blown-off quite quickly [15:04] what about ship the US with all three ? [15:04] i mean, the fact is, most users dont need latency below 20ms [15:05] AND, the video-graphics folks are probabaly ok with -generic now [15:05] azm: we *might* get -lowlatency pushed in the repos [15:05] yeah, you could choose during installation process [15:05] i think thats more of a *probabaly* [15:06] holstein: Well, "users" depends on audience. Folks trying to replace Pro-Tools or your average new user. it makes a fifference who you target. [15:06] any amendments to the agenda, anything else people want to talk about? [15:06] azm: i think for now, we are aiming for -lowlatency for 11.4 [15:06] i think holstein wants to add some other kernel talk :) [15:06] holstein, would it be okay if we discussed this under "lowlatency kernel"? [15:06] okay, i wanted to note we should be having this meeting regularly again [15:06] 11.10* [15:06] And yeah. Only -audio needs low latency. [15:06] scott-upstairs: sure, i dont want to hi-jack [15:06] i thought this could be brainstorming [15:06] we can always build what we want to and keep it in a ppa though [15:06] while we wait a bit [15:07] for others to come [15:07] holstein, nah, it's got momentum, just going with it [15:07] since, we literally cant do anything about the kernel [15:07] today [15:07] btw, we skiped * amendments and * note meeting time and recurrence ? [15:07] :) [15:07] i would like to push the -lowlatency kernel to the repos, use that as default kernel for ubuntustudio, and try to offer -rt kernel as possible in ppa [15:08] scott-upstairs: i think thats a good goal [15:08] scott-upstairs: +1 [15:08] azm, i can come back to those [15:08] agreed [15:08] and do-able [15:08] i really feel that the -rt kernel is required at this moment for a majority of users who have firewire interfaces [15:09] scott-upstairs: Does Alessio have access to our PPA or does he still publish to his own? [15:09] this might change if some of the kernel changes happen where the -generic might allow the resolution of irq conflicts with the -rt kernel [15:09] ckontros: there is no ubuntustudio ppa [15:09] Actually, his can be testing and ours be stable. [15:09] and should be, if possible [15:09] shouldnt* [15:09] ckontros, he currently pushes to his own, i do not know if he has access or not [15:09] you guys know the technical differences between rt and low ? I still haven't studied it. [15:09] ckontros, yes, i like that [15:09] azm: ailo is crazy on kernel testing [15:10] if you get a minute to hang with hiim [15:10] holstein, i think ubuntustudo-dev does have a ppa [15:10] scott-upstairs: but, the goal is to not do that right? [15:10] so we can just pull from the main repo? [15:10] at install? [15:10] holstein: Its a band-aid for now. [15:10] holstein, i think we can use the ubuntustudio-dev ppa for the -rt kernel [15:11] since it will not probably ever be in the repos again [15:11] ckontros: agreed [15:11] scott-upstairs: yeah, and i think thats OK [15:11] as long as -lowlatency is default [15:11] OR -generic does the job [15:11] out of the box [15:11] i think we could also add to ubuntustudio-default-settings to add the ppa automatically if desired [15:11] scott-upstairs: Well, it /could/ be. It was before and wasnt a nightmare for anyone. Just needs a good dedicated person to maintain. [15:11] PPA's are easy for those users that need [15:12] We can note on how to enable in the release notes. [15:12] well in my case generic cause a lot of xrunson my notebook so I switched to falktx rt [15:12] azm: thats usually the case [15:13] however, i have hardware that is quite opposite [15:13] probably due to the verion of the -generic kernel [15:13] this may sound bourgeois, but should we support netbooks? aren't they intentiontally underpowered and not necessarily for audio work? [15:14] scott-upstairs: i use them quite often actually [15:14] but, i dont think we need to say anything about it either way [15:14] I would say no. If we had someone on the team just for it, sure. But with limited resources... [15:14] its a low-powered machine [15:14] if someone wants to mess around and get it working [15:15] why not [15:15] i agree with ckontros about limited resources [15:15] of course if it works, then it works [15:15] but i dont think we need to say 'no netbook support' [15:15] +1 [15:15] but conversely if it doesn't work, then perhaps it doesn't work [15:15] holstein: agreed [15:15] so we agree to do "nothing" :P [15:15] yeah [15:15] easy :) [15:16] if i get bored [15:16] i'll try and put some documentation up about running what i run on netbooks [15:16] but we probably should point out if asked about netbooks and people having problems, that they aren't our target hardware i guess [15:16] what about proper jack-pulse support ? [15:16] if I can ask now [15:16] scott-upstairs: yeah, we should say 'runs great on netbooks and old hardware' [15:17] azm: sure, you can ask [15:17] okay, i'm working with alessio on the -lowlatency kernel, we are waiting for 2.6.39 to get stable and will try to get it into ocelot [15:17] persia has agreed in the past to push the -lowlatency kernel into the repos without "permission" from UKT [15:17] As he should. [15:17] I have to basically download pulse-jack bridge from different distro to have sound [15:17] holstein, what do you mean "runs great on netbooks and old hardware"? [15:17] Its not their territory. [15:17] well, it *should* be cool [15:18] no tutorials on this topic on US web [15:18] scott-upstairs: shouldnt* [15:18] sorry :) [15:18] ckontros, there is a blueprint for kernels, it has the UKT coming with documentation about how to build/package a kernel derivative [15:18] ckontros, it was a "great colloboration" between us and them [15:18] gotcha [15:18] my quotes and term [15:19] azm: we'll get to that [15:19] at this point, however, it has completely failed because the documentation continues to remain forthcoming [15:19] i think persia has reached his limit and will move rather unilaterally now to push it into the repos :) [15:20] sorry, azm, your question again? [15:20] and Jfo comes in here from the UKT [15:20] so, i dont think its going to be a big issue [15:20] we need it [15:20] and its great that we are going to get it :) [15:20] holstein, as cory pointed out, it's not their perview if our kernel goes into multiverse, it's -motu [15:21] and persia is part of -motu [15:21] scott-upstairs: azm is inquiring about the pulse-jack bridge [15:21] scott-upstairs, np, I was asking of support pulseaudio and jack working together [15:21] AFAIK [15:21] that is not going to debian upstream [15:21] azm, are you saying that you do not have any sound at all with ubuntu studio? [15:21] last i heard falk talk about it [15:21] the pulse guys didnt like it [15:22] because it kills pulse [15:22] scott-upstairs, sure I have, but If I run jack then pa stop workin, if I stop jack pa will not start [15:22] scott-upstairs: do we have plans of including that package? [15:22] I know jack must be setup properly [15:22] falks pulse-jack thingy? [15:22] ah, azm, i am assuming you have a single audio interface or you are trying to use a single audio interface to play streams from both pusle and jack? [15:22] scott-upstairs, yes [15:23] The pulse-jack thing has hounded us since pulse was introed. JACK in main was supposed to be our ticket. Since it hasnt happened, for whatever reason, I saw we push during 11.10 for a bit. If it doesnt happen, PPA it is. [15:23] i think its such a specialized need [15:23] but jack is in the main [15:23] well I already figured how to get it working [15:23] but for beginners it could be pita [15:24] btw. does US have wiki? [15:24] azm: IF its proper documentation [15:24] scott-upstairs: Yep. Which was supposed to allow us to enable JACK support in pulse. [15:24] you and i would set down and make a WIKI sometime [15:24] maybe you and I and [lsd] [15:24] ckontros, ah, okay [15:24] [lsd] know the old method quite well [15:24] knows* [15:24] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio [15:24] and we can just make whatever WIKI we need [15:24] thats what they are for [15:25] ckontros, maybe we need to file another bug or if one exists we push that one [15:25] scott-upstairs: Im sure there's already several. [15:25] ckontros: its the pulse guys AFAIK [15:25] they dont have a JACK option [15:25] i'll check to see if a "enable JACK support in pulse" bug exists and see where they stand then [15:25] thats where i think we should put the pressure [15:25] if possible [15:26] that would make life SO much easier [15:26] but, there are issues with it [15:26] holstein, like what? [15:26] pulse would have to stop [15:26] and start again [15:26] holstein: Naa... Pulse guys wont do it. The JACK-Pulse stuff was written by las AFAIK. [15:26] and they dont like that [15:26] they = pulse team [15:26] like falk's jack-bridge ? [15:26] right [15:26] ckontros, who is las? [15:27] he said they were kinda pissed about it [15:27] las= paul davis [15:27] oh yeah [15:27] still, thats literally all it would take [15:27] the pulse guys to allow JACK support [15:27] and boom [15:27] everything is in the main repos [15:27] we could host falktx's jack-bridge in our ppa, like the -rt kernel? [15:27] and it would just work [15:27] scott-upstairs: that would be easy [15:27] bug 109659 [15:28] Launchpad bug 109659 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "jack sink missing in pulseaudio" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/109659 [15:28] falk already has documentation [15:28] bug 480103 [15:28] Launchpad bug 480103 in jack-audio-connection-kit (Ubuntu) "Pulseaudio not working while jackd is running" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/480103 [15:28] about how to add it to ubuntu [15:28] it says "fix released", ergo we don't actually have a problem ;) [15:28] i think jack sink missing in pulseaudio should be the one [15:28] kidding [15:28] BUT [15:28] um,, yeah. ;) [15:28] i personally could care less [15:28] i stop JACK [15:29] and watch whatever [15:29] i dont need JACK + web [15:29] but, it would be nice [15:29] for some [15:29] i'll crawl through launchpad more in the coming week and follow up with the bugs and see where they are at, and see who i need to bug about it [15:29] yeah, lets just think about if we want the bridge in the PPA [15:29] but we should have an alternative solution (if possible) if the we aren't able to enable jack support in pulse [15:30] and azm, ask me sometime [15:30] and we'll make some documentation [15:30] holstein: Sure. But that's where our "audience" comes in. Personally, during my "reign" :P advanced users were the focus. [15:30] ok [15:30] But new users dont know why things dont work together. [15:30] just wanted to note as well, that this meeting is recurring each month on the first sunday of the month at this same time [15:30] yup :) [15:30] noted [15:30] if anyone is having problems with the date or time, please let us know and we will see what we can do [15:31] alright, moving onto ubuntustudio-controls [15:31] also I would replace zynadd with yoshimi [15:31] azm: thats happening [15:31] already done in natty, azm [15:31] they are borked right now, current functionality is either not necessary anymore or broken [15:31] oh, nice [15:31] paultag and ailo are working on studio controls right? [15:32] ailo and paultag have been working on it :) [15:32] lol holstein [15:32] yeah, i wanted to say thanks officially to them [15:32] but we don't have a stable build yet and therefore nothing to build a diff from to push into the repos for natty [15:32] is there some audio app extension program? Like if you adding some new valuable software to dvd ? [15:32] so, the new target is ocelot for the -controls update [15:33] scott-upstairs: i think thats fine [15:33] azm, can you explain that a little more expansively? i'm not sure i understand your question [15:33] we can get by with what we need in natty as-is [15:33] holstein, agreed [15:33] and maybe the controls get moved to XFCE or whatever [15:33] anyways... [15:33] however, themuso assured me that we can SRU -controls back into natty as required even if it is pulled from the seeds [15:34] and i did ask themuso to remove -controls from the seeds [15:34] another offical thanks there too then [15:34] ailo has expressed concerns about trying to get eh updated -controls back into maverick and lucid and they have broken -controls currently as well [15:34] agree holstein :) [15:34] i like that we seem to be more able to be flexible [15:34] and thats what we need right now [15:35] next topic, is ubuntu studio's future in regards to gnome and unity [15:35] scott-upstairs, like eg. adding up to date new ladspa, lv2 plugins, mayne vst support [15:35] something that ckontros has expressed some concerns [15:35] *maybe [15:35] azm: that should be coming to the repos soon [15:36] azm, for ladspa, lv2...you only need to add the package from synaptic or software center, the plugins will be installed and usable then [15:36] azm: i say, keep an eye on what you are interested in [15:36] and lets track them upstream [15:36] and get more pro-active if needed [15:36] vst support is a different beast, azm, due to licensing [15:36] yeah, we dont need that [15:37] thats sounds good [15:37] i would like to go on record as being a dick about vst support [15:37] azm, or are you saying updates to existing lv2 plugins, version 3.1 of foo, rather than 3.0 of foo [15:37] lol holstein [15:37] Im no fan of it either [15:37] haha. VSTs. Will they ever stop being an issue. :P [15:37] with the work that falk is doing [15:38] it should be easy to add that functionality if needed [15:38] why do you say that holstein ? [15:38] do you mean his work with cadence? [15:38] scott-upstairs, yep, and adding some new creations like IR [15:38] falk seems to add support for VST's when possible [15:38] but thats maybe off topic as it is some beta version [15:38] that wa just example [15:38] azm, that's a multifaceted question, but i'll be brief [15:38] maybe its just certain ones [15:39] azm, brand new plugins (ladspa or lv2) need to be packaged [15:39] but they also need to be packaged and built for the appropriate release of ubuntu/ubuntu studio [15:39] once they are, then we can see about putting them into studio [15:39] azm, does that help somewhat? [15:39] yeah, and right now, we are more in the mode of putting out fires [15:40] since, when those builds break, its scott-upstairs fixing them [15:40] and whoever he can rope into helping him ;) [15:40] heh, sadly very true about putting out fires [15:40] Sorry, I missed the meeting. I'm here now. Reading the scroll [15:40] adding packages right now is not where we are [15:40] hopefully by 12.04 though [15:40] NEW TOPIC: GNOME-PANELS, GNOME3 (AKA GNOME-SHELL), AND UNITY [15:40] we can have resources for maintainting packages [15:40] ckontros, do you want to take lead on this? [15:41] yup :) [15:41] scott-upstairs, yes. So for some other updates ppa is the place where to search addition stuff during next release period [15:41] ailo: no worries [15:41] scott-upstairs: Sure. It will mostly be a recap of yesterday. [15:41] brb [15:42] So, in tinkering yesterday it looks like rebasing on XFCE is viable. [15:42] That is, if thats the direction the team wants to go in. [15:42] i like that idea [15:42] i think we should entertain that [15:42] like the live installer [15:42] really think about all the implications [15:43] and make sure its something we can live with for years [15:43] LXDE is also an option but I feel integration/UI consistency will be harder. [15:43] ckontros: i agree [15:43] ckontros: any idea on the longevity of XFCE ? [15:43] seems like a well maintained project when i check in on it [15:43] Using XFCE also gives us a slightly larger -dev team as we will have to work with Xubuntu. [15:43] backing up a bit: there is a confluence of situations that is causing us to look at other alternatives for a DE and windows managers [15:44] canonical/ubuntu moving to unity and then waylaynd [15:44] gnome 3 coming out with single app focus like unity [15:44] they are not conducive for a studio environment [15:44] i dont think XFCE is challenging though [15:44] not like KDE can be [15:44] Canonical ditching the "classic" GNOME option for 11.10 [15:44] coming from gnome* [15:44] KDE or LXDE or soemthing like fluxbox [15:45] i feel those are a lot different than gnome [15:45] ckontros, are they not even providing gnome-classic at 11.10, they have stated this somewhere? [15:45] and XFCE should be easier [15:45] http://www.webupd8.org/2011/04/ubuntu-1110-will-not-ship-with-classic.html [15:45] no matter what, we are going to hear about it ;) [15:45] argh! [15:45] im +1 on XFCE [15:46] Ready for me to continue? [15:46] well, it appears that jono was wrong about ubuntu always providing gnome :/ [15:46] ckontros, sure [15:46] k [15:46] well, i think gnome3 will be in the repos [15:46] So if there's a consensus on XFCE, a UI direction should be tinkered with. [15:47] I'm advocating a single, AWN across the bottom. [15:47] ckontros: avant? [15:47] i agree with xfce, it has numerous advantages that lxde or others do not have [15:47] does that still require 3d ? [15:48] Yes. Avant. Simple, gives the most screenspace and does everything and more a panel does. [15:48] holstein: XFCE can do sw composite. [15:48] (last i knew anyway) [15:48] ckontros: i would like to see some overhead on avant [15:48] http://imagebin.org/146291 this is currently xfce from live cd, notice the bottom AWN panel [15:48] i remember when i was using it [15:48] it seemed heavy [15:48] that was 9.10 though i bet [15:49] And my simple testing from yesterday: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6728/screenshotoof.png [15:49] i went to wbar [15:49] then, i just started using gnome-do [15:49] ckontros: im not opposed though [15:49] i think AWN does look modern [15:49] and thats what we need i think [15:49] if we go to XFCE [15:49] i like ckontros 's screenshot, even better if the AWN panel is set to autohide [15:49] and have a really slick looking DE [15:50] XFCE is nice, but in some way, it would feel like more of a safe choice, than a preferred choice. [15:50] boo-ya [15:50] ^ if anybody still says that ;p [15:50] holstein: There's some graphic to tinkering to do but its the least of our issues. ;) [15:50] So +'s to XFCE? [15:50] +1 [15:50] yup +1 [15:51] i say, +1 even if gnome2 is sticking around [15:51] I'm still not sure. But, perhaps XFCE is the smartest choice, at least for 11.10 [15:51] Ok. In the coming weeks I'll start a BZR branch to start testing. [15:51] ckontros, i wonder if we might convince some xubuntu developers might help us figure out a way to do software selection during installation [15:51] incidentally, this would give us the live dvd option i believe [15:52] scott-upstairs: Im sure they would. I'll reach out to them soon. [15:52] scott-upstairs: After 11.04. A Planet note will also be good. But not till after Natty releases. [15:52] ckontros, absolutely :) [15:53] ooh, its a ckontros! [15:53] ckontros, but this will give us a live dvd, will it not? [15:53] BAM! :) [15:53] Hi Jussi [15:53] jussi: o/ [15:53]