[21:42] <coz_>  good day to all
[21:42] <Ronnie> hey coz_
[21:42] <coz_> Ronnie,  hey guy
[21:45] <Ronnie> coz_: i created a mockup (http://ubuntuone.com/p/kvg/) for the packagning guide from dholbach http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/guide/index.html . are you an designer and have feedback for it?
[21:46] <coz_> Ronnie,  well I am artist.. if that is what you mean... and let me look hol on
[21:50] <coz_> Ronnie,  the layout looks nice,, :)
[21:50] <Ronnie> thx coz_ , any feedback on it?
[21:53] <coz_> Ronnie,  well,, other than its appearance,, the page layout,,  which is real nicely done,  the information looks correct,..  this is going to be the replacement for  the second link you linked ot?
[21:53] <Ronnie> yes, i hope so. i made the design, lets hope some 'coders' start working. some started already, but had no sense of styling
[21:55] <Ronnie> coz_: if you want i have another one for our local forum: http://ubuntuone.com/p/ZrY/ as a replacement of http://forum.ubuntu-nl.org/index.php
[21:55] <coz_> Ronnie,  comparing the two links,, yours is by far easy on the eyes...
[21:57] <Ronnie> coz_: its indeed an improvement, but it does not feel 'right/finished' yet, but running out of ideas
[21:59] <Ronnie> i had a lot of mockups for that page: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/Artwork/Projecten/WebsiteTheme/Forum/FrontLayout but none of them is the way i want it to be
[21:59] <darkmatter> coz_: have you seen the new wip gnome site yet? it's fairly easy on the eyes and more inviting than the current piece of crap ;)
[21:59] <coz_> Ronnie,  the second set of links,, the original is in a list form and yours in  categories... yours again is much "easier" on the eyes,, than the original,,, not sure how much improvement can be made with lists like this,,  I may not have an idea at the moment,, ooo I like that thrid link  with the red bands
[21:59] <coz_> darkmatter,  no I h avent
[22:00] <coz_> Ronnie,  the one with the red bands titling the category is much nicer :)
[22:01] <Ronnie> the one with the 'non-round' corners?
[22:01] <darkmatter> coz_: its an early bit. but I'm liking the direction:
[22:01] <darkmatter> http://wptest.gnome.org/
[22:01] <coz_> Ronnie,  and would be nice with those tiny background dots
[22:01] <coz_> Ronnie,  no  this one  http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/Artwork/Projecten/WebsiteTheme/Forum/FrontLayout
[22:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  huh!  I didnt even het a hint about this site  ,,,, nice
[22:02] <Ronnie> somehow the round corners feel 'constrained' to me. like the title it 'locked-up'
[22:02] <coz_> Ronnie,  then go with your feel of it
[22:02] <coz_> Ronnie,   I didnt see the one with squared corners though
[22:03] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. obviously far from done, but it's friendly and seems to suit gnome quite well
[22:03] <coz_> Ronnie,   you mean this one ?  http://ubuntuone.com/p/ZrY/
[22:03] <Ronnie> coz_: scroll down a bit on the last link. there are much more mockups
[22:03] <Ronnie> http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/Artwork/Projecten/WebsiteTheme/Forum/FrontLayout
[22:04] <coz_> Ronnie,  you're right !  I do prefer the sqared corners
[22:04] <coz_> let me stare at these  a bit :)
[22:08] <coz_> Ronnie,  well.. not sure now,,, the one with sqare corners is layed out symetrically,,, each category about the same veritical height,, the one with rounded corners looks a bit off  with the "Teams"  category being wider.. it isthrowing the symetry off,, the squared corners are "clean" looking..and seems more of a "separator"  for the categories,  the rounded edges seem more of a "title bar" or topic heading...not sure now which I like  :)
[22:09] <coz_> Ronnie,  I would have to see that "red header"  as on the second one with the square edges   put on the rounded edge mockup..  this is going to be your call in the end  :)
[22:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo  I am liking the simplicity of that one theme I am looking at :)
[22:10] <coz_> darkmatter,    http://wptest.gnome.org/gnome-3/
[22:12] <coz_> Ronnie,  but the header on all of the ones you showed have squared edges,, so maybe that is the best  ?
[22:12] <Ronnie> im not sure, ill try to make a round corner variant of the 2nd
[22:12] <darkmatter> coz_yes. adwaita is nice save for _1_ little problem. it's freaking huge. mentioned that to aday earlier (on how gigantic widgets and toolbers are actually detrimental to accessibility and usability. along with one or two small non-theme bits in 3). he said most of it is a bug
[22:13] <coz_> Ronnie,  is the header a different orange than the category bars?
[22:13] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh damn!.. why so huge?
[22:14] <coz_> m gnome 3  still not quite ready in ubuntu !?!
[22:15] <Ronnie> round corners is possible: dont know which is better, both are good i think: http://ubuntuone.com/p/l4H/
[22:15] <Ronnie> the orange is supposed to be the same. i guess the header has some sort of tranparant white layer above it
[22:16] <coz_> Ronnie,  that's nice :)  only one category header is rounded
[22:16] <Ronnie> yes, so we can compare better
[22:16] <coz_> Ronnie,  well I actually like the first one being rounded and the others squared :)
[22:17] <coz_> Ronnie,  that would definitly be your call though
[22:17] <darkmatter> coz_: an example: epiphany with menubar/toolbar has the same chrome height as firefox with menubar/toolbar/bookmarks bar _and_ tabs in current gen themes. that a 2x size ratio (approximately). and its consistent throughout the theme
[22:17] <darkmatter> not sure the overall rational. I know part of it is just theme bugs. and it wouldn't be so bad if the ui elements scaled with text. the default font is pretty big, if you select _small_ in accessibility (small is around 8pt or so) the ui doesn't changfe. so i makes it seem even bigger
[22:17] <darkmatter> small font. huge widgets :P
[22:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  it doens scale with text??
[22:18] <darkmatter> coz_: or another example of the scale of the theme. nautilus preferences dialog is approx 620 pixels in height. lol
[22:19] <Ronnie> i even think it will be a total rewrite. i can do better if i have inspiration. other pages worked out well (http://ubuntuone.com/p/ezu/ (different site) and http://ubuntuone.com/p/ZrX/)
[22:20] <darkmatter> coz_: nope. I dunno if its a limitation of the theme  itself, a gtk+3 bug, or other (haven't checked, lol) but what you see for dimensions and padding is what you get
[22:21] <coz_> Ronnie,   these are all very nice  guy :).. I am flipping quickly between the variations.. as if I just went to the sites ,, switching back and forth,,  it seems I am with you on the squared edges...
[22:21] <darkmatter> coz_: http://blogs.gnome.org/cosimoc/files/2011/03/scr1.png
[22:21] <darkmatter> http://blogs.gnome.org/cosimoc/files/2011/03/scr2.png
[22:22] <darkmatter> it's only _slightly_ obese.
[22:22] <darkmatter> lol
[22:22] <coz_> :)
[22:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  what is the mixing of png  svg  there?
[22:23] <darkmatter> coz_: the mockups he was using as reference for realizing the theme
[22:23] <coz_> ah
[22:23] <Ronnie> coz_: thx for thinking with me. if i have more (better) mockups ill be back for sure
[22:23] <coz_> darkmatter,  is the final in svg ?
[22:24] <darkmatter> coz_: can't complain about the look. it's no worse than a mac or a windows box, but damn. I need to sit 6 feet from my display xD
[22:24] <coz_> Ronnie,  I would really like to see them :)  these are quite nice,,,
[22:25] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh!!!  wow
[22:25] <darkmatter> coz_: umm... it's mostly css iirc. I'll check in a bit. dling the latest live build atm, then burning and rebooting from cd to play around a bit
[22:25] <coz_> darkmatter,  i would like to see a theme done solely in svg
[22:25] <Ronnie> 16th april we have a 'late' ubuntu jam with a lot non-tech persons. Hope we can work on this theme :)
[22:25] <coz_> Ronnie,  cool :)
[22:27] <coz_> darkmatter,  I realize svg  can  be somewhat more resource intensive,, although  I am not sure how much more it would be in a theme or how "slow / bloated"  it would feel
[22:27] <coz_> darkmatter,  I have to say,, that theme is very minimal and "Clear"
[22:27] <coz_> sharp,,, easy looking
[22:28] <darkmatter> coz_: but of course, you can tell its a fat theme from the nautilus screenie I linked. but its pretty nice. and clutter has finally restablized. so the shell runs again (and its lightning fast compared to gnome2 (at least judging by the speed of running live and vm)
[22:28] <coz_> doesnt interfere with work,, although the "grey"  / "gray"  I'm not sure about
[22:28] <coz_> if it came in colors..rather different values of gray maybe
[22:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  I lke how this "fits the eye"  http://blogs.gnome.org/cosimoc/files/2011/03/scr2.png
[22:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  very clean
[22:29] <coz_> my eye is directed to the list of options and not the theme
[22:29] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. svg would be nice, but has (really, not joking) fairly crappy support in linux
[22:30] <darkmatter> not just heavier resource usage, but renders somewhat poorly at the ui level
[22:30] <coz_> darkmatter,  really?  wow I didnt realize that!
[22:30] <coz_> darkmatter,  that's a disapointment
[22:31] <darkmatter> yeah
[22:32] <coz_> darkmatter,   on all platforms..however, svg is far more resource intensive  for sure,,
[22:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  text to image   I suppose is the reason
[22:33] <coz_> the calculations
[22:33] <coz_> and then that is still rendered in bit map in the end if I am not mistaken
[22:33] <darkmatter> coz_: aye. though surprisingly svg is pretty snappy on, dare I say i? dare I make you long for... *gasp*... yellow... TABS? :O
[22:34] <coz_> lol
[22:34] <coz_> oh  how I love window tabs :)
[22:34] <coz_> that expance with test
[22:34] <coz_> expand
[22:37] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. but seriously, I thing the Be family (I'm saying family because of offshoots and cloning) had/have superior libraries for that. (not that I've actually compared mind you). yellow tabbiness was always about keeping things simple
[22:37] <darkmatter> I mean, it only took one guy 4 hours to write the ui toolkit xD
[22:38] <coz_> wow
[22:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  yes ,, BeOs  had a real nice way of dealing with these things... very well done.. certainly fast and clean
[22:39] <darkmatter> coz_: it was written for performance after all. I mean, time travel with me and remember the insane level of multitasking it endured
[22:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  I definitly remember
[22:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  and on low end systems no less
[22:39] <darkmatter> not just media centric, but media _heavy_
[22:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  smspillaz   also is a BeOs , Haiku fan,, we talked about the possible porting of compiz to haiku lol
[22:40] <darkmatter> hehe
[22:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  i would switch tomorrow if that happened :)
[22:41] <coz_> except for damn java implimentation,, Be never did have that but it was way back when ,, I guess
[22:41] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. the only thing I disliked about haiku was it's quest for binary compatibility... slows progress imo. but now they're caring less about '90s apps. more about modernizing it
[22:42] <darkmatter> finally has a browser, and webkit based no less
[22:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo  I suppose that's good
[22:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  too bad the  BE people screwed things up..seriously,,, I would have never come to Ubuntu
[22:44] <darkmatter> coz_: still doing it with a Be mentality, but at least they're aming for progress.
[22:44] <darkmatter> the whole legacy thing is also what held amiga back (os 4 is like os 2 with better theming :P)
[22:45] <darkmatter> yay. daily gnome3 finished downloading!
[22:46] <coz_> nature call...be back in a bit
[22:50] <darkmatter> coz_: check the conf-editor icon http://people.gnome.org/~jclinton/gnome3_screenshots/app_list.png
[22:50] <darkmatter> actually, most of them are getting like that. crayola isn't what it used to be ;)
[22:52] <darkmatter> I still dislike the style at smaller sizes, but the highres is nice.
[22:52] <darkmatter> except for the fact that I loath empathy's new icon ;)
[22:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  nice and all,, but in all honesty ,, I am not a fan of netbook stuff
[22:53] <coz_> its too claustrophobic
[22:53] <coz_> rather  clostrophobic
[22:54] <darkmatter> coz_yeah. me neither.
[22:54] <darkmatter> I was just referencing the icons
[22:54] <darkmatter> but I'd definitely change metaphors for a lot of stuff
[22:54] <darkmatter> like a message in a bottl for messaging instead of a speech balloon with a smilie. lol
[22:55] <darkmatter> you know. more human metaphors, less artifical
[22:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, I would like some things to get beyong the "kids' view
[22:59] <darkmatter> coz_: or make traditional metaphors more *fun*. like that friggin steel filing cabinet. make it a) wooden b) open drawer, slighlty messy c) a small mess of papers or whatnot scattered at its base
[22:59] <coz_> darkmatter,  one day it will all mature,, at that point we will be " oh man I miss the days  when ... "  lol
[22:59] <darkmatter> or inside jokes. like a slice of burnt toast for brasero. that or a drink coaster :P
[23:00] <darkmatter> coz_: but you get what I mean
[23:00] <coz_> darkmatter,  sure go :)  but they can keep brasero.. I dont like it
[23:00] <coz_> let them do what they want with it
[23:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  rather " sure do "
[23:03] <darkmatter> coz_: the environment as a whole (and not just specific to gnome) is far too artificial
[23:03] <darkmatter> everything feels like plastic. lol
[23:03] <coz_> oh y eah,, that's it , make a statement and  leave !! lol
[23:04] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah that's it,, ,make a statement then leave  :)
[23:04] <darkmatter> coz_: haha. server hating me doesn't equate to leaving :P
[23:05] <coz_> darkmatter,   :)
[23:13] <coz_> ok I have to break here,,  enough irc for now