[02:44] <Pendulum> TheMuso: So you were the only person who wanted 2200 UTC. I set the meeting at 2100 UTC, but IIRC you didn't have many (if any) items on the community blueprint
[02:45] <Pendulum> and I can hold your items to the end of stuff so that you don't have to get up so early :)
[03:08] <TheMuso> Pendulum: Ok thanks, I'll do my best to attend at that time anyway.
[03:09] <TheMuso> Sorry, almost lost your message in the flood of disconnects I've been having. :)
[19:31]  * AlanBell tries to kick off a discussion of bug 751891 in #ayatana
[19:37] <UndiFineD> AlanBell, got a link ?
[19:38] <AlanBell> more to the point, where is the bot?
[19:39] <UndiFineD> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/751891
[19:46] <UndiFineD> AlanBell, did you make that in some html ?
[19:46] <AlanBell> no, it is onboard
[19:47] <AlanBell> it reads some svg to get keycap positions and sizes and colours
[19:47] <AlanBell> some python code changes to set fonts and other bits like the rounded corners
[19:48] <AlanBell> it looks like this at the moment if you just run onboard: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/oldonboard.png
[19:48] <charlie-tca> And we still can't even get a menu entry for it
[19:50] <charlie-tca> since everybody knowws those who need a software keyboard can just type in terminal to start it, right?
[20:00] <AlanBell> hmm, well you can do it with just the mouse, but you have to set it to launch on login and then log out to get it to run
[20:00] <AlanBell> and type your password of course as that doesn't get it to run in gdm
[20:03] <UndiFineD> yeah that would be great to have it available at least at login
[20:03] <charlie-tca> And that and the ability to type in terminal is why they refuse to put it in menu at all
[20:28] <AlanBell> arguably onboard should not need a menu option, but should just run if you don't have a keyboard plugged in
[20:28] <AlanBell> but it doesn't do that as far as I know
[20:28] <Pendulum> AlanBell: what about laptop users
[20:31] <AlanBell> true, I was mostly thinking about touch screens and tablet devices
[20:32] <charlie-tca> I keep of thinking of those disabled that can not type
[20:39] <AlanBell> yes, but using what kind of pointing device?
[20:40] <charlie-tca> straw, hitting one key at time?
[20:40] <Pendulum> or switch users
[20:40] <UndiFineD> there are laptops with touchscreens
[20:41] <charlie-tca> Many U.S. Veterans have to use trackballs, since they can spin the ball with the entire palm, when the fingers don't work
[20:41] <UndiFineD> indeed, trackballs are very usable too
[20:42] <UndiFineD> and i suppose .. joysticks
[20:42] <charlie-tca> Even seen some that use trackballs with the back of their hand, since it is fixed in position and won't move
[20:42] <charlie-tca> joysticks are harder to use without fingers that work
[20:43] <UndiFineD> I even have a new sidewinder in a box
[20:43] <charlie-tca> tape all the fingers and thumb together with a splint or brace and try to use it
[20:45] <AlanBell> whilst I do think it should be in the menu I still think it would be nicer if it just launched when you have no keyboard plugged in
[20:46] <charlie-tca> You might have two people using the computer, one fully abled and one disabled. 
[20:47] <AlanBell> sure
[20:47] <charlie-tca> Although, yes, I agree. It would be really nice to have it launch when there is no hardware keyboard
[20:47] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I think both solutions would be good
[20:47] <charlie-tca> but what would that do to headless servers and stuff?
[20:47] <maco> charlie-tca: no X anyway...
[20:48] <charlie-tca> oh! Then it would be great1
[20:48] <charlie-tca> oh! Then it would be great, even!
[20:48] <AlanBell> yeah, on screen keyboard on a headless server is an interesting concept!
[20:49] <charlie-tca> Got to ask... :-)
[20:52] <leoquant> it makes me very frustrated and angry that most of all inovations comes from th spinoff from the war industry. pilots do use their voice and eyeball tracking to get their machines from te ground
[20:53] <leoquant> and we disabled are waiting for solutions.....
[20:53] <charlie-tca> War is one of those things that get almost unlimited funding for research
[20:54] <leoquant> ;o0 9 o;
[20:54]  * leoquant slashes his keyboard
[20:54] <maco> charlie-tca: sad as it is
[20:55] <maco> the US Congress is currently having a fight over the budget, which if they dont resolve this week, will result in a government shutdown
[20:55] <maco> they keep talking about needing to cut spending...yet war spending seems to be untouchable :(
[20:56] <leoquant> i am off, too angry to think
[20:56] <charlie-tca> Yup, that is the way it works. I am interested in this shutdown. Most things are completely unaffected by government spending shutdown
[20:58] <charlie-tca> those missiles used by the US in Libya cost 1.5 million dollars each, and will probably have to replaced :-(
[20:58] <maco> necessary services keep running, such as emergency, police, and postal
[21:00] <itsthelatte> Anyone attending the CSUN conference right now?
[21:03] <charlie-tca> They are not part of the federal government budget, though
[21:03] <Pendulum> I wish :(
[21:03] <maco> charlie-tca: capitol police are
[21:03] <charlie-tca> post office is now 100% funded by profits, police are mostly state and local, emergency are about the same
[21:04] <charlie-tca> heh, I guess I don't count them
[21:04] <maco> the national park service would close down
[21:04] <maco> no more tours of the Washington Monument
[21:04] <maco> right as Tourist Season is kicking in
[21:09] <maco> charlie-tca: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/06/2153836/who-stays-on-job-in-federal-government.html
[21:25] <charlie-tca> Note most of congress and most of their aides get to keep working
[21:27] <maco> well how else would they fix the lack of budget?
[21:27] <maco> we'd be belgium!
[21:28] <charlie-tca> Do they really need the aides? Can't the congressmen themselves do something?
[21:29] <maco> the staffers do most of the drafting. the congress critters review it and then present it
[21:29] <JanC> maco: we don't have a lack of budget  ;)
[21:30] <maco> in the case of the one "necessary" personnel i know in a congressional office, that person makes sure email (and networking stuff in general) works so constituents can complain to the congress critter about their budget :P
[21:30] <maco> JanC: was referring to the lack of government
[21:30] <maco> or did you get one now?
[21:30] <JanC> we don't have a lack of government either
[21:30] <JanC> the old one is not allowed to go away until we have a new one, so...
[21:31] <maco> ahh, so thats what the "interim" refers to 
[21:31] <charlie-tca> The United States is 6 months into the fiscal year without a new budget. 
[21:31] <maco> the zombie government ;-)
[21:32] <maco> eep http://www.presstv.ir/detail/173460.html
[21:32] <IdleOne> charlie-tca: no need for a budget if you have limitless credit
[21:32] <maco> (what came up as breaking news when i googled belgium government)
[21:32] <charlie-tca> heh, true. 
[21:33] <JanC> legally the interim government has the same powers as any other government...
[21:34] <charlie-tca> Maybe we could loan them some, and help them out :-)
[21:34] <JanC> the issue is more that they don't really have a majority in parliament & senate anymore, so any decision that goes against the majority there risks getting overturned
[21:35] <IdleOne> charlie-tca: who is this "we" and why are they loaning out my money?
[21:35] <IdleOne> not that I have any
[21:35] <IdleOne> but if I did I would want to know
[21:35] <charlie-tca> The U.S. Government, and it is not "your" money, since they have none anyway
[21:36] <maco> and since IdleOne isn't a USian
[21:36] <charlie-tca> The U.S. government is trillions in debt, a few million would not matter, would it?
[21:36] <IdleOne> probably won't make a difference no
[21:37] <IdleOne> I do have USian childrens
[21:37] <charlie-tca> The President wants to cut something like 6 billion this year, which won't even dent the national debt
[21:38] <IdleOne> as long as he cuts in the right places, you know, eduction and health care.
[21:38] <IdleOne> oh and adds to national defense
[21:39] <IdleOne> this seems really offtopic for this channel though :)
[21:39] <JanC> *national* defense?
[21:39] <Pendulum> IdleOne: well, healthcare isn't really offtopic :P
[21:39] <IdleOne> yes de fence that the nationals protect
[21:40] <IdleOne> Pendulum: ahh good so I'll keep babbling about things I know nothing about :)
[21:40] <maco> you may like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbWDEEytCmQ
[21:40] <charlie-tca> That would be the fence on the US / Mexico border?
[21:40] <maco> (more off topic politics stuff)
[21:40] <maco> haha
[21:40]  * Pendulum refuses to get into political debates today because she already feels sick :P
[21:41] <IdleOne> charlie-tca: the ones all the illegal mexicans are going to build
[21:41] <charlie-tca> The US built it already, they just have to go around it
[21:41] <maco> charlie-tca: or over
[21:41] <IdleOne> would have been cheaper to have the illegals build it.
[21:41] <JanC> or under
[21:41] <IdleOne> and probably better built
[21:43] <JanC> there is always the sea, I guess, a bit difficult to put a fence there?
[22:00] <AlanBell> ok, it is 21:00 UTC by my calculations
[22:00] <AlanBell> Pendulum: want me to chair still?
[22:01] <Pendulum> AlanBell: nope, I can do it
[22:01] <Pendulum> (sorry lost track of time
[22:01] <Pendulum> okay, meeting time!
[22:01] <Pendulum> #startmeeting
[22:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Apr  6 21:01:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
[22:01] <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
[22:01] <Pendulum> so who's here for the meeting?
[22:01] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[22:02] <IdleOne> present but not sure I can offer anything.
[22:02] <itsthelatte> Hey there
[22:02] <Pendulum> yeah, this is mostly a follow-up meeting so I'm hoping won't be too long :)
[22:02] <AlanBell> o/
[22:02] <paul_h> I'm listening in :)
[22:03]  * Pendulum pokes Cheri703 in case she has anything to add to the meeting :P
[22:03] <Cheri703> I'm present
[22:04] <Cheri703> am on the phone :)
[22:04] <Pendulum> okay, so the purpose of this meeting is to go over what's been done on our blueprint and have a sense of what else we think we can fit in this cycle and what needs to get posponed
[22:04] <Cheri703> not anymore :)
[22:04] <Pendulum> #topic Natty Blueprint
[22:04] <meetingology> TOPIC: Natty Blueprint
[22:05] <Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info
[22:05] <Pendulum> by the way, I apologize as I meant to clean up and see if there were things that could get changed in status earlier today, but I ended up spending most of my afternoon sick
[22:06] <TheMuso> Thats ok, better that you get well.
[22:08] <Pendulum> so I'm behind on a bunch of my things. I did start to talk to the doc team so I'm going to move that to done
[22:09] <AlanBell> I am behind on the personas, but I do have another one to publish tonight hopefully
[22:09] <Pendulum> also, TheMuso and charlie-tca, would it be fair for me to move most Unity testing things to postponed due to the fact that Natty is no longer our target for Unity?
[22:10] <UndiFineD> o/
[22:10] <TheMuso> Yes I think so.
[22:11] <Pendulum> AlanBell: did we move from trying to get all the personas rough drafts done to working on getting final versions of each before moving on to the next?
[22:12] <AlanBell> well the rough drafts are done, or at least the thinking about each of the characters
[22:12] <Pendulum> okay
[22:13] <AlanBell> I know who they all are, what their principal impairments are and we did the survey to get bits to put into the storys
[22:13] <Pendulum> yeah
[22:13] <AlanBell> Faisal is published
[22:13]  * Pendulum changes 'rough drafts' to done :)
[22:13] <AlanBell> Daniela is a draft on wordpress
[22:13] <Pendulum> *nods*
[22:14] <Pendulum> TheMuso: you've reported back pretty much all of the a11y that we know is working, right?
[22:15] <TheMuso> Pendulum: Yeah I'm pretty sure I have, because there is not a lot. The launcher minus quicklists, and the top panel, and some indicators identify themselves properly.
[22:15] <Pendulum> yeah
[22:16] <Pendulum> okay, I'm updating the blueprint
[22:16] <TheMuso> ok thanks
[22:16] <Pendulum> I think the outstanding items that don't need to be postponed or aren't already in progress are with people who aren't here
[22:17] <Pendulum> or are me
[22:17] <Pendulum> (people can feel free to kick me about stuff I haven't done, don't worry) :P
[22:17] <Pendulum> if you guys want to refresh and let me know if that looks accurate?
[22:19] <TheMuso> Looks good to me.
[22:20] <Pendulum> does anyone else have anything to add?
[22:20] <Pendulum> (seriously, that's all I had for the meeting)
[22:21] <TheMuso> Well, short and sweet is good.
[22:21] <TheMuso> Allows me to get some breakfast and ptter around until its time for work. :)
[22:21] <TheMuso> potter
[22:21] <Pendulum> anyone else?
[22:21] <Pendulum> I guess not
[22:22] <Pendulum> #endmeeting
[22:22] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Apr  6 21:22:00 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
[22:22] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-06-21.01.moin.txt
[22:22] <AlanBell> I would like some people to have a look at the daniela blog post in a sec
[22:22] <Pendulum> AlanBell: yep :)
[22:23] <TheMuso> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/04/as-schools-shift-to-google-apps-blind-students-object.ars
[22:26] <AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/?p=65&preview=true does that ask you for a password?
[22:26] <Pendulum> gives a page not found
[22:26] <AlanBell> ok, I will have to publish it properly then
[22:27] <AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/meet-daniela/
[22:27] <AlanBell> any comments would be great, especially if it is stuff I can fix before the planet picks it up
[22:28] <TheMuso> Damnit this stupid unity window decorator has some BAAAAAAAD focus issues.
[22:31] <Pendulum> AlanBell: missing end of sentence under Life Goals
[22:31] <AlanBell> so it is
[22:32] <AlanBell> wonder how I was going to continue that bit
[22:33] <JanC> TheMuso: the window *decorator* ?
[22:33] <TheMuso> JanC: Not sure to be honest, it could just be compiz's window management...
[22:34] <IdleOne> AlanBell: ....ability to use her laptop to gain more independence
[22:34] <JanC> I have an issue with almost all windows ending up in the top left corner of the screen currently... under the launcher & the top panel  :-/
[22:35] <IdleOne> I am guessing is where you were headed there
[22:35] <JanC> all new windows
[22:35] <JanC> and trying to find what compiz plugin might be misconfigured or this is just a bug
[22:35] <Pendulum> AlanBell: probably better for 'ability to use her laptop to find new places to explore'
[22:36] <charlie-tca> Sorry, had to put a gate back up and get snowed on again
[22:36] <AlanBell> I put something about alarms, but I will add that too
[22:37] <charlie-tca> I read the log, and I think you got it covered, though
[22:37] <TheMuso> JanC: fun
[22:39] <maco> AlanBell: on the video of the screen-reader install, you say "custom_partitions, thats not too insane" around 6:30 or 6:40 into it... would it be possible to redub it to not use "insane" that way?
[22:39] <maco> 6:29
[22:41] <AlanBell> oh :(
[22:41] <AlanBell> probably not
[22:42] <AlanBell> or I don't know how
[22:42] <AlanBell> but I will redo the whole thing again at some point close to release or with the final release
[22:44] <charlie-tca> I will write the new test case before monday. Next week we are testing Beta2, so we have to try again. :-)
[22:45] <maco> ew, this video is just...
[22:45] <maco> TheMuso: i'm sorry :(
[22:45] <TheMuso> heh thats ok.
[22:45] <AlanBell> maco: why don't you do the next version of it!
[22:46] <charlie-tca> heh, progress
[22:46] <maco> AlanBell: im not ewing at you doing it, i'm ewing at the wtfness of the results!
[22:46] <maco> i do want to try a kubuntu install this way though
[22:46] <maco> now that qt4-at-spi has now gotten into natty
[22:46] <charlie-tca> maco: considering what he tried to do, it worked pretty good
[22:46] <AlanBell> oh, I understood that :)
[22:47] <AlanBell> yes, it would be great to do a kubuntu one
[22:47] <maco> charlie-tca: the screenreader worked fine, the stupid labeling on the buttons, though!
[22:47] <maco> and pages
[22:47] <maco> "Page"
[22:47] <maco> "page"
[22:47] <maco> "page"
[22:47]  * maco headdeks
[22:47] <maco> oops
[22:47] <charlie-tca> and shortcut keys and ...
[22:47] <charlie-tca> and the thing doesn't work right out of the box, really
[22:48] <charlie-tca> Although, we got a better screen-reader install than we had in 10.10p
[22:48] <maco> AlanBell: haha "i do have a pound key, good thing i can see it" ... and if it said "do you have a pound key?" all us americans would go "wait does it mean # or £???"
[22:49] <AlanBell> yup
[22:49] <AlanBell> as I understand it #="Pound" has almost no basis at all
[22:51] <charlie-tca> It's the abreviation we use in America for weight = pound
[22:51] <charlie-tca> although I have no idea how it gets to be that.
[22:53]  * TheMuso sighs. Some of the comments to that Ars article are really disappointing to read.
[22:58] <maco> whats going on is its reading all the id="" on the stuff. id="" is used by the programmers to refer to the widgets so they can modify them programmatically (for example making a textbox uneditable if a checkbox is unchecked)
[22:58] <maco> TheMuso: do you know what program is used to make the .ui files in ubiquity? ive only seen .ui for qt, but this is clearly gtk
[22:58] <maco> and for gtk i just knew glade, but that makes .glade files
[22:59] <AlanBell> I think it is glade
[22:59] <maco> (by the way, is this reading as "dot you eye" and "dot glade" or just "ewwee" and "glade"? and 
[22:59] <maco> erm, ignore that last "and"
[23:02] <AlanBell> dot you eye and dot glade
[23:03] <AlanBell> if anyone is going to UDS and is interested in the invisible dinner thing it would be great if you could leave a comment on the blog
[23:04] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you going to UDS?
[23:04]  * Pendulum is not
[23:06] <TheMuso> maco: Something to do with glade/gtkbuilder.
[23:06] <charlie-tca> I did not get the message yet
[23:07] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Thanks for the heads up, must do that.
[23:07] <charlie-tca> but I think so
[23:07] <maco> ok. i'll look at a11y patches for the installer
[23:07]  * AlanBell hugs maco 
[23:16] <TheMuso> maco: Bearing in mind that I think a lot of the problems are webkit related...
[23:16] <maco> TheMuso: yeah i know, but at least the gtk widgets could be sensibly labeled!
[23:16] <TheMuso> This is true.
[23:16] <maco> a lot of the things AlanBell ran into were the id="" being read because no accessible_name="" was given
[23:16] <TheMuso> ah.
[23:17] <TheMuso> Goes to show just how much I test the installer. :)
[23:17] <TheMuso> If ubiquity supported LVM, then things would be different.
[23:17]  * TheMuso uses LVM on all systems.
[23:17]  * charlie-tca doesn't use LVM at all
[23:20] <TheMuso> I use LVM because the software I use for building packages in chroots works best with LVM snapshots.
[23:21] <TheMuso> And it allows me to easily resize filesystems without having to possibly break partitioning./
[23:21] <maco> AlanBell: want to update that post's bug list? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/749653
[23:22] <maco> that one i can fix at least. as i dig in, i'll see which others i can get through tonight
[23:23] <JanC> TheMuso: btrfs should help solving that too
[23:23] <AlanBell> I think I will remove [Undecided,New] from all of them
[23:24] <TheMuso> maco: Ping me when done, as I have commit privs, and can look them over.
[23:24] <maco> TheMuso: ok
[23:24] <TheMuso> JanC: Yes but sbuild already works with lvm snapshots, which is good enough.
[23:24] <maco> TheMuso: you have commit privs for ubiquity?
[23:24] <maco> or referring to the package since you're a core dev?
[23:25] <TheMuso> maco: Commit privs for ubiquity, I am on the installer team for slving just such accessibility issues./
[23:25] <TheMuso> I need to use ubiquity more, but lack of LVM makes that difficult.
[23:25] <maco> ah ok
[23:25]  * maco raises an eyebrow at these .ui files
[23:25] <maco> i think the reason titles never get read is that it's a frame
[23:25] <maco> the stuff inside the frame is read, but not what's around it
[23:26] <JanC> TheMuso: but btrfs is more likely to be supported in Ubiquity
[23:26] <maco> because those titles? they're not in these .ui files
[23:26] <maco> i probably can't tonight sort out how to make it inform the reader to pipe up when new text appears (such as "passwords don't match!") but small improvements...
[23:27] <TheMuso> JanC: Yeah I know, but there is still the aprtitions/filesystem resizing issue.
[23:45] <valorie> http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2011/02/07/a-diversity-statement-for-ubuntu/ <--- one fabulous comment at the end by a Debian user