chris4585cjwatson, I hate to bother you.. but I think I know what happened03:23
chris4585I believe my data was encrypted, I'm looking up how to fix this atm03:25
evcjwatson: explaining the situation to mpt now09:34
cjwatsonis it a simple adjustment or is there contention?09:34
evwell, we're trying to phrase it without being too verbose09:35
mptcjwatson, I've changed "No files will be deleted." to "Documents, music, and other personal files will be kept."09:36
cjwatsonI don't want to overwhelm people with words either09:36
mptBeyond that, whether to show the upgrade option at all in 11.04 is up to you.09:36
evcjwatson: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfkkjjcj_101gnkrpg5v#4_5_1_Automatic_partitioning_o_8475526086986065 could you look that over and let us know if there are any lingering issues?09:36
cjwatsonmpt: OK - can we do anything about the "upgrade" word?09:36
evso mpt has left that up to us, and I'm not entirely convinced changing it to reinstall it is the best path forward09:37
cjwatsonI'm not sure about "reinstall" either - that's too far in the other direction09:38
evit's also used elsewhere there09:38
mptcjwatson, I don't see how it could possibly then be understandably distinct from "Erase Ubuntu and reinstall"09:38
ev"Erase everything and reinstall Ubuntu [maps to use_device]" for example09:38
evwhoops, not trying to gang up09:39
cjwatsonno that's fine, it's a valid point09:39
cjwatsonI'm just trying to make it distinct from "upgrade" as used elsewhere09:39
cjwatson(in Ubuntu)09:39
evsure, I understand your concerns there09:39
mptIt is an upgrade, it just has differences from the internal upgrade process if you have server software installed.09:40
mpt(Albeit those are important differences if you do.)09:40
cjwatsonif we describe it as an upgrade, users will turn up saying they upgraded, and the behaviour won't be as we expect for upgrades09:40
mptI asked ev what software this would affect. Web servers, database servers, what else?09:40
cjwatsonit's impossible to narrow it down to particular kinds of software09:41
cjwatsonfor example I've seen Linux games that you downloaded as a tarball and unpacked into /usr/local09:41
evPerhaps our best option is to make the description a bit verbose "Installed software will be kept where possible, system settings will not."?09:41
evwe keep /usr/local09:41
evyou designed that bit :-P09:41
cjwatsonheh, gotcha09:41
evcjwatson: I believe mpt meant what are the common cases in which this would burn you?  What software would you have installed that you'd be making conf file changes to.09:43
cjwatsonright, well the thing that matters is whether dpkg-repack will pick it up or not09:43
evpresumably because that's who we need to message this to09:43
evI think we should just assume dpkg-repack will not be invoked for the purposes of explaining all this09:44
cjwatsonI know we can't have that in the explanation, but we need to think about it09:44
cjwatsonany case where you create a new file in /etc (or change a configuration file that isn't a conffile?) will not be preserved09:44
evany time you change a system level setting to a package period, unless that package is unavailable and thus repacked with dpkg-repack09:45
evin which caseu I believe your above assessment is correct09:45
cjwatsonaha, I missed that subtlety09:46
cjwatsonso anything in the System menu that requires unlocking, basically09:46
ev(lp:apt-clone if it's easier to follow along in code)09:46
evI think so09:46
cjwatson"system settings" seems a reasonable way to put that, then09:46
evjust trying to think of the things I could possibly be missing here :)09:46
cjwatsonideally I'd like a new word that's a synonym for "upgrade" but that means that users will show up saying they did that rather than that they upgraded09:47
cjwatson(and that distinguishes it for more clueful users)09:47
evthat's a really good point that I hadn't considered09:47
evand was demonstrated in that exchange from last night09:48
cjwatsonI take mpt's point that it is an upgrade, in much the same sense as e.g. a Windows upgrade is09:48
ev(mpt is radio silent because he's helping Ivanka)09:48
cjwatsonalthough it's worth noting that video that somebody posted recently where they did a load of Windows upgrades and noted what kinds of configuration it kept09:49
cjwatson(did you see that?)09:49
evI haven't actually watched it yet -- I always feel a bit weird about going on Youtube while in the office, but I had heard about it, yes09:50
cjwatsonactually, better, http://rasteri.blogspot.com/2011/03/chain-of-fools-upgrading-through-every.html09:50
evyay monkey island09:55
cjwatsonthe rest of that section of the UX spec looks largely OK, although I'd point out that in the case where the same version of Ubuntu is already installed, we have the same problem that mpt raised above - "Reinstall Ubuntu {same version}" is not very distinct from "Erase Ubuntu and reinstall", unless you read the small print09:56
cjwatsonfailing to think of appropriate not-hopelessly-jargon synonyms for upgrade09:56
cjwatsonsystem settings> BTW, I think it's OK if that doesn't cover all the bases, because people who've installed non-trivial software will likely read "system settings" and think "hm, that's vague and I'm not sure whether it will nuke my configuration, better keep a backup" (slightly optimistic, but I think it guides them in that direction)09:58
evmpt: when you get a chance, what are your thoughts on expanding the description as mentioned at 9:41?10:11
mptAn unfortunate collision there is that as of 11.04 we're starting to update "System Settings" as the name for non-application settings in general, whether personal or system-wide10:13
mptI guess "system-wide" settings would work10:13
mpt(and so the syllable count creeps ever upwards)10:13
cjwatsonlucky you don't speak French :-)10:13
cjwatson(but yeah, that works for me)10:14
evmaybe it's better finessed in other languages.  Perhaps the germans have a single word for all of this ;)10:14
cjwatsonhaving failed to think of any suitable synonyms, I'm happy to shelve the "upgrade" bit if we fix everything else to be clear10:14
cjwatsonthough we need to warn the rest of the development community10:14
cjwatsonit's going to affect their bug triaging10:14
evindeed. Do you think a post to ubuntu-devel-announce will be enough?10:16
cjwatsonthere may be some documentation that needs to be updated, but I don't know where it is ... -devel-announce is a good start10:17
cjwatsonI wonder why that user lost /home though - he said he thought he knew what the problem was and that his data was encrypted, so maybe we're failing to copy ecryptfs configuration across or something?10:18
evI thought we handled that...10:18
cjwatsonso did I10:18
evwe most certainly force them back into encrypt home if they selected it before10:18
evthough I wonder10:18
cjwatsonwhat if they pick a different password?10:19
evI have a note that the UID preservation is probably broken with the move to parallel steps10:19
evperhaps that did it?10:19
cjwatsonthough for single-user systems it'll be 1000 either way10:19
cjwatsonI mean, chances are10:19
mptcjwatson: "Documents, music, and other personal files will be kept. Installed software will be kept where possible. System-wide settings will be cleared."10:27
evsounds good10:33
evhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/590149/ - how's that?10:43
evspeaking of documentation, I really need to find some time to learn restructured text and sphinx10:43
evso we can generate pretty (and hopefully comprehensive) developer documentation for ubiquity like we do with d-i10:45
evfor example: http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/mock/10:45
cjwatson590149> looks good10:59
evcool, thanks11:07
CIA-7ubiquity: evand * r4645 trunk/debian/ (changelog ubiquity.templates):11:14
CIA-7ubiquity: Provide a better description for the upgrade/reinstall option that11:14
CIA-7ubiquity: intends to make the difference between it and a traditional Ubuntu11:14
CIA-7ubiquity: upgrade clear.11:14
CIA-7ubiquity: cjwatson * r4646 trunk/debian/ (changelog source/options):11:36
CIA-7ubiquity: Switch to xz compression for the source package, saving nearly a11:36
CIA-7ubiquity: megabyte.11:36
ogra_hmm, does the removal of the live seed packages also remove the recommends they pulled in ?11:39
CIA-7ubiquity: evand * r4647 trunk/debian/changelog: Add LP bug reference.11:39
cjwatsonogra_: yes, it should prune everything back to the desktop seed, basically11:41
cjwatsonit works based on differences between manifests11:42
ogra_hrm, k11:42
ogra_then i'll probably move the TI ppa handling back into jasper11:42
ogra_having a package doesnt seem to make much sense here11:44
evcjwatson: aquarius just mentioned to me an idea of installing to /Ubuntu_$VER to make multiple versions easy, with the real intent being able to try an upgrade while still being able to go back12:04
evso I mentioned this was the intent of some of our work with btrfs snapshots12:04
evwhich got me thinking, given that you can seemingly mount snapshots without rolling back to them, could we muck about with the grub config and initramfs such that you could boot into one as well?12:05
cjwatsonI'm not sure enough about the semantics of btrfs snapshots12:05
cjwatsonit should be possible12:05
evyeah, me either12:05
cjwatsonon the initramfs side it's just rootflags=subvol=@whatever12:06
evI get hazy in what happens to the data from that point12:06
evoh nice12:06
evthat is, does it always start from the snapshot, or do any changes you make get carried into that snapshot path12:06
evpresumably breaking the ability to roll back to it12:07
cjwatsongrub.cfg would need you to construct entries rooted at /@whatever rather than /@, I think12:07
cjwatsonright, that's the sort of thing I have no idea about12:07
cjwatsonwhether they're tags or branches, which ones are significant, etc.12:07
cjwatsonI suspect that in part btrfs just provides some tools and it may be up to us to layer meaning on top, but not sure12:08
cjwatsonacross dist-upgrades, home directory data is going to start diverging too - think firefox profiles, for example12:08
cjwatsonso that gets tricky for full rollbacks, might need to snapshot both in theory and offer various possibilities12:09
evI wonder if you could snapshot both and only present the user the one where they can muck about, but keep the other around for being able to roll back12:11
evemm, that wouldn't be ideal12:11
evworthy of a UDS discussion?12:12
cjwatsonyeah, probably12:13
evI'll add it to the wiki then, thanks12:15
ev(and will endeavor to learn more about this particular bit of machinery before then)12:16
* cjwatson wonders how entertainingly http://paste.ubuntu.com/590197/ is going to fail12:53
cjwatsonwill need to be paired with a Wubi change12:55
cjwatsonev: would you object to something like http://paste.ubuntu.com/590207/, to make ubiquity/nonfree_package preseedable the way the documentation says it is?13:14
cjwatsonit would make it possible to preseed "install restricted drivers, but not restricted host software"13:14
cjwatsone.g. "Colin is doing Wubi tests and wants his wireless to work each time"13:14
cjwatson(OK, that's a crappy use case, but YKWIM :-) )13:15
=== kdoandal is now known as nevrax
evsorry, was out at lunch14:00
evlooking now14:00
evlooks okay to me14:01
evmterry: reviewing your branches now.  Just trying to get your changes to work locally.15:42
evseems to not like client.SetSortMode15:58
cr3setting the hostname in a preseeded and networked installation of natty with the alternate image doesn't seem to work with netcfg/get_hostname whereas it seems to work with the desktop image for a networked install over nfs, might it be possible that something changed?16:11
cr3for some reason, the hostname seems to be set to "ubuntu" rather than the string provided to d-i16:11
cjwatsonchanged?  bug 21896516:12
cr3cjwatson: heh, we've been using desktop images so much more frequently that I haven't noticed so much the side effect with alternate images16:13
cr3cjwatson: mathiaz mentionned remastering the iso, does that mean I could potentially set a kernel parameter to set the hostname instead of the preseed?16:14
cjwatsonthe bug log remembers more than I do right now16:15
cr3cjwatson: no worries, thanks for the pointer16:16
cjwatsonev: could you build wubi r207?16:26
evon it now16:26
* cjwatson fires up a scary lupin upload16:27
CarlFKcr3: I saw that hostname="ubuntu" thing about a week ago. network install, hostname supplied by dhcp, I thought it was because I had a dash, (test-1) but when I tried to track it down it went away.16:31
cjwatsonCarlFK: hostname supplied by dhcp is a very different code path from what cr3 is doing16:32
cjwatsonthe bug I referenced is pretty specific16:32
CarlFKah - known issue.  never mind.16:35
evcjwatson: wubi is up17:07
mterryev, :( about sphinx17:45
evstill trying to get it going17:45
evis it working for you?17:45
mterryev, I must have misused the python api.  If I sort on command line it works17:45
evor was this a cowboy?17:45
mterryBut I couldn't get python api to connect to my server at all, so I didn't get far enough to test tht17:45
evor the python api is broken17:45
* mterry isn't even sure he's actually running a sphinx server vs local instance17:46
mterryev, it was sorta-cowboy17:46
mterryev, I looked at the python api code to make sure I got the arguments right... and it matched what I was doing on console17:46
mterrybut I must have screwed something up17:46
evfrom what I can tell you seem to be matching the docs17:47
* mterry tries to get my sphinx server up17:50
evah ha17:55
evclient._error helps17:55
evsort-by attribute 'population' not found17:55
mterryev, I just retested locally and it worked in python17:58
mterrydid you re-index?17:58
evdoing that now18:00
evthanks mterry18:01
mterrythat branch really improves the quality of the results18:02
evand I've merged the other one now as well18:06
evthanks a bunch for doing that18:06
evmterry: do you have other things in the pipe or should I pester IS to update from that branch?18:08
mterryev, I have something in the pipe for localization, not sure when.  I think end of week at worst18:19
evokay, I'll hold off then18:19
evbest to batch these things up, methinks18:19
evI'll have to unearth the Windows VM from my NAS tonight to give this a try - http://paste.ubuntu.com/590378/18:55
evhmm, actually that's going to need to be a bit more clever, given Windows' insane locking18:56
CIA-7ubiquity: evand * r4648 trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs):19:24
CIA-7ubiquity: Don't show the biggest_free option if we can't fit Ubuntu in the19:24
CIA-7ubiquity: free space (LP: #751145).19:24

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