OONot too sure what happened there, those pics drove my computer to a grinding halt :/00:01
=== UndiFineD is now known as UndiFineD_
=== UndiFineD_ is now known as UndiFineD
OOCould you say again atall?00:03
=== Mattb90_ is now known as Mattb90
shaunohttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/23042/screen.jpg   seems to be pretty relevant :/00:07
ali1234hmm looks familiar00:11
ali1234istr a maverick bug that did that, it wasn't actually a problem with sata though, but something else completely random00:12
ali1234the ata errors were none fatal and just happened to be the last thing on the screen00:12
ali1234could be unrelated though00:12
shaunothat's all dmesg has for that device00:12
ali1234hmm ok you grepped00:13
ali1234so what's on tail of dmesg?00:13
shaunoand grep sg0 just has a "sd 0:0:0:0: Attached SCSI generic sg0 type 0"00:14
ali1234can you see it in /dev/ or mount it or anything like that?00:14
shaunoIt's in dev, but mount tells me it's not a block device.00:15
shaunoBooting again now, will find out what dmesg has for me00:15
shaunoAssuming sg0 is ata2 as there's no sdb,c, etc. Just sda which is mountable00:17
ali1234sounds bad00:18
GuestWhy thanks ubuntu00:19
GuestYou have 206 updates available!00:19
hamitronbetter than having 205 and an extra "problem" left00:25
shaunoI don't see anything else odd in dmesg; http://oneil.me.uk/dmesg.txt in it's entirety00:25
shaunoit didn't add any other log messages until I found a usb key to stick in it 1-2 minutes later00:27
shaunojust seems to spend about 15 seconds waiting for ata2 to make sense, then gives up and dumps me into initramfs00:29
shauno(this is beta1, daily did the same)00:30
shaunowell, I should drop it for tonight.  gotta be up in 4 hours.  added to the forum thread to see if anyone else running the same is seeing this.00:41
shaunojoin date nov 2004, and that's my first post.  forums aren't my bag, baby00:41
=== issyl0_ is now known as Guest27687
ali1234cool i earned the tumbleweed achievement on askubuntu :)02:11
=== matti__ is now known as matti
=== txwikinger2 is now known as txwikinger
AlanBellmorning all07:24
danfishover the past 3 days I've upgraded (not fresh install \o/) natty on my laptop, revo box and zoneminder server, and touching wood, four leafed shamrocks etc, everything works as expected :)07:26
danfishmy experience with Unity can be summed up as a 30min rollercoaster - 10mins 'how does this thing work', 10mins 'this is cr*p and is going out of the window, to a final 10mins of 'this is actually an interesting way of working and is quite good'07:28
danfishanywho, enjoy the weather all :) Off to work time :(07:38
=== ivanka is now known as ivanka-train
smittixcan anyone find this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/74966008:13
lubotu3Error: Launchpad(https://launchpad.net) bug 749660 not found08:13
smittixWeird, Submitted a bug last night and got a reply saying it was a duplicate with the above.08:13
smittixand it doesnt exist08:13
=== dgjones is now known as DJones
TheOpenSourcererI've not used Natty yet - is this a reasonably accurate precis so far? http://journalxtra.com/2011/04/ubuntu-11-04-what-have-they-done/08:56
MartijnVdSimho, yes08:58
TommehYes, but you can just switch to Ubuntu Classic08:59
TommehAnd then it looks/works mostly like 10.10 :)08:59
MartijnVdSExcept for the #@( global menu08:59
TommehAh, he says this at the bottom.08:59
Tommeh... And you can't re-arrange items on the task switcher09:00
Tommeh-10 points for not allowing my compulsive behaviour :(09:00
TheOpenSourcererJeez - that sounds like a pile of poo.09:02
MartijnVdSTheOpenSourcerer: Hence my switch to xubuntu09:03
MartijnVdSTommeh: But the design team is god, and knows everything better than you!09:03
MartijnVdSTommeh: they're professionals! trust them!09:03
TommehTo be fair to them, IMO, they've made some risky changes in the past and it's turned out for the better.09:04
TommehSome people hate change .. Me, I'm on the fence about Unity. If I could have an easier way to switch workspaces I'd be using it.09:04
MartijnVdSThe titlebar buttons you mean?09:04
TommehThings like libnotify09:04
TommehI remember it was 'risky' to not allow them to be closed/removed, etc.09:05
DJonesWhen I ran it on a liveusb at the weekend, I was quite impressed, it looked quite clean & worked otb, the only problem I had was the installer crashing out & failing to install grub09:06
danfishTheOpenSourcerer: I quite liked Unity. I even filed a bug to that effect :P09:06
TommehIt'll be like marmite for a while :)09:06
TommehEven if it's not polished-up in this release, they'll be working on making it suit.09:07
DJonesWhats the saying, "Time is a great healer", as people get used to it and the experience improves, I'm sure people will get used to it09:10
TheOpenSourcererTommeh: "an easier way to switch workspaces..." What is the problem here then?09:11
oimonali1234: ping09:12
wintellectMornin campers09:12
TommehTheOpenSourcerer: I have to open the thing on the left to change workspaces09:12
TommehAnd even then you have to wait for it to zoom out, select a workspace, zoom in09:13
MartijnVdSwintellect: Campers? This isn't an FPS game is it? :P09:13
TommehVery annoying09:13
TheOpenSourcererDoesn't CTL+ALT+Arrow work?09:13
TommehI don't want to use my keyboard all the time!09:13
wintellectMartijnVdS: :P09:13
TommehSecond person to have said that.09:13
TommehSometimes I really don't have both hands on the keyboard...09:14
TommehSo instead of one click to switch workspaces, it's three -- with waiting for transitions in between.09:14
TommehMakes it very annoying to multi-task across multiple workspaces.09:15
TheOpenSourcererI'm always running 3 or 4 desktops...09:15
TommehGood for you :)09:15
DJonesTommeh: That won't be problem for men, my wife always says that mem can't do two things at once09:15
* TheOpenSourcerer goes and shuts every window that isn't the current focus of my attention to please DJones ' wife09:16
hoovergood mornin09:16
TheOpenSourcererHang on, haven't finished yet.09:16
DJonesAlthough I think her idea of multi-tasking is, sitting on the couch, watching tv & playing on facebook09:17
* DJones checks to make sure she hasn't joined the channel to see what I talk about09:17
MooDoopopey: just speaking to markdude who sends his regards :)09:18
popeymorning all09:19
popeyMooDoo: in real life?09:19
kazadegood morning everyone! How are you all today?09:19
MooDoopopey: no, fedora-ambassadors IRc09:19
TheOpenSourcererlast night I created my daily zsync script for natty. Am now going to test the desktop in VBox, see if it is bad as it sounds.09:20
MooDoopopey: he mentioned chickens :)09:20
popeyhas he left Ubuntu to join Fedora then?09:20
MooDoopopey: no idea, i've always seen him in that channel09:21
oimonTommeh: i joine the convo late, are you speaking of gnome shell, unity, or both?09:21
TommehWith respect to what?09:23
TommehA lack of simple workspace switching?09:23
TheOpenSourcererThe installer is nice. Like the way it does stuff in the background whilst you fill out the other info.09:25
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)09:25
popeyTommeh: enable the thing that lets you switch workspace by nudging the mouse against the edge of the screen?09:27
TommehThat's one idea, but in the past I've tried using similar things with compiz and it's just driven me mad due to hitting it by accident :(09:27
TommehHowever I'd like a simple workspace switcher, as I have now09:27
TommehClick, switch, click, switch.09:27
bigcalmI'm a secret lemonade drinker09:29
bigcalmDon't know why you made me think of that09:29
* TheOpenSourcerer attempts to not say "R-Whites" 09:29
bigcalmToo late :D09:29
oimonTommeh: i suggest you raise a feature request for right click on workspace switcher to show a quicklist of all desktops , then the process is right click workspace switcher, choose desktop number09:31
popeythat would work nicely09:31
* popey pokes gord 09:31
TheOpenSourcererThis is because there is no bottom panel any more and no workspace display in the bottom right?09:32
popeyi never used that switcher09:33
popeytoo hard to hit09:33
bigcalmI used to enjoy holding alt and scrolling the scroll wheel to change desktops09:33
popeyyeah, i use that09:33
TheOpenSourcererI tend to use CTL+ALT+>09:33
bigcalmDoesn't work in Windows :D09:33
popeyi usually use CTRL+ALT+arrows tbh though09:33
popeybecause thats not far from where my hands rest anyway09:33
bigcalmMy left hand naturally rests on wasd :(09:34
* oimon looks down and sees his left hand on sdf09:34
* TheOpenSourcerer doesn't even ponder where bigcalm 's right would be resting ;-)09:34
oimonreturns his pinky to the a key09:34
bigcalmTheOpenSourcerer: it would squeek if it could09:35
gordoimon, bring it up on ayatana list or file a feature request bug, can't do it for this cycle sorry09:37
=== czajkows1i is now known as czajkowski
MartijnVdS\o hazman09:48
HazRPGMartijnVdS: \o/09:49
HazRPGMartijnVdS: how's it going?09:50
MartijnVdSHazRPG: We've just moved a big project to Debian at work :)09:50
HazRPGseems my body has gone back in sync with normal times again... although I can see it going out of wack again in a few days time09:50
HazRPGMartijnVdS: \o/ score!09:50
bigcalmI hope it wasn't from Ubuntu to Debian09:53
HazRPGI've just downloaded natty alt + desktop in both i386 and amd64 \o/09:54
HazRPGI'll keep those seeding for a week or so :)09:54
HazRPGI think I should learn the ol' bzr I think... upload my code recipe to it :)09:58
TheOpenSourcererHazRPG: I use a zsync script to update all 6 daily Natty isos overnight09:59
HazRPGTheOpenSourcerer: ooo, how does that work exactly?09:59
HazRPGdoes that just download the new bits?10:00
TheOpenSourcererhang on I'll paste the script10:00
HazRPGheh typical... the day I want to use LaunchPad and its down for maintenance :P10:01
HazRPGTheOpenSourcerer: nice :)10:01
TheOpenSourcererJust run that in the background overnight the first time to get all the isos then when it runs later it just gets the differences.10:03
HazRPGnice :)10:04
HazRPGmuch thanks10:04
TheOpenSourcererHmm, Natty fails to boot now I've installed the Guest Editions. Hangs at "Checking battery state..."10:04
HazRPGbug report \o/10:04
bigcalmDistro change!10:05
TheOpenSourcererDoes holding down the shift key work in VBox to get to the grub menu usually? Isn't working for me right now10:06
HazRPGwow, I've managed to seed a ratio of 0.80 of Wikipedia Feb 2011! >_<10:06
bigcalmHazRPG: a lot of data?10:07
HazRPGTheOpenSourcerer: erm, make sure the screen has grabbed your mouse by clicking on it first before you hold shift... otherwise it won't work I think10:07
=== victorp_ is now known as victorp
TheOpenSourcererTo answer my own question - YES. But you have to be quick.10:07
HazRPGbigcalm: Well it's the whole of wikipedia up until feb 2011! (about 6.5GB tarballed)10:08
bigcalmThat all? My goodness10:08
HazRPGjust the english wiki, without images10:09
bigcalmAh, ok10:09
bigcalmText compresses well10:09
HazRPGit extracts out of the tarball as 11.4GB10:09
HazRPGalthough that's a WikiTaxi file... so even that could be compressed too10:09
bigcalmDoes it include discussions and revisions?10:13
HazRPGbigcalm: ah, here we go... it uncompresses to 27GB10:13
HazRPGno, just current revisions10:13
HazRPGall revisions, all pages is a ~31GB 7z file (uncompresses to over 5TB)10:14
HazRPGor a bz2 ~280GB file10:14
HazRPGbigcalm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download10:15
HazRPGwow the arabic one isn't as big :S10:17
HazRPGTheOpenSourcerer: would zsync work with .bz2 files :P?10:19
HazRPGah maybe not cos they don't have a zsync file10:20
HazRPG(reading through the pastebin)10:20
TheOpenSourcererHmm The daily Natty Desktop 64bit won't start in VBox for me. Was OK until I installed the Guest Editions to get 3D. Now bored, will go and do proper work instead.10:26
HazRPGheh :P10:26
HazRPGjust updated my LP to have my wiki on it now :)10:28
HazRPGI wish there was a way to have under languages English first then Arabic... because English is my 1st language, not arabic lol10:28
gordnice, gmail was saying i had -1 messages ;)10:35
smittixWow, I just tried Gnome310:35
shaunoall the zero-inbox nuts will be jealous :)10:35
jpdsgord: Have you been reading your email before receiving it?10:37
directhexsmittix, and you gazed into the very heart of darkness?10:49
smittixdirecthex: Actually I thought it was a pleasant experience.10:54
bigcalmI'm actually looking forward to seeing a complete and fully opperational deathst^Wunity10:56
bigcalmMissquoted *sigh*10:58
jonsainthi all. just installed ubuntu on a dell inspiron mini. problem i got is that i got the wifi to work with my router but after 5 mins of being connected, it kicked me off and now i cant reconnect again despite having all the right details put in. any advice??10:59
davmor2morning all11:02
X3Njonsaint: do you know which drivers you are using for wifi? iirc there are two available, you can cehck by going to system > administration > aditional drivers11:02
jonsaintjust looking11:03
jonsaintX3N, its brought 2 up, broadcom b43 wireless driver and a broadcom sta proprietary wireless driver with the first one active11:04
X3Ntry switching to the proprietary driver11:04
X3Nyou may need to plug into the wired to download the driver if you don't already have it11:05
jonsaintyeah doing hat now to see if it works11:05
jonsaintjust doing a restart on it to see what happens11:06
davmor2jonsaint: the b43 driver sucks you need to use the sta one11:06
jonsaintjust trying that one now11:07
jonsaintits saying wireless networks disconnected11:08
jonsainti even got the windows wireless drivers thing added from the software centre11:09
HazRPGdavmor2: morning dude11:10
davmor2jonsaint: have you tried connecting to a wireless connection11:10
davmor2HazRPG: morning11:10
ooHey guys & gals i need a suggestion11:10
jonsaintdavmor2, yeah i was connected at first for about 5 mins then it suddenly went off and not been able to connect since11:10
ooI got this computer a while back and i'm in the process of migrating the old system (windows xp) over to ubuntu11:10
HazRPGdo many people here use jabber.org?11:11
ooI need to import the pictures, music, videos and docs from xp to ubuntu11:11
ooProblem is, xp is currently sitting on 70gb and ubuntu has 6gb assigned to it (hd is 76gb), what would you say is the best way to approace this?11:11
ooAt the moment i'm slowly shrking the xp partition and slowly cutting things from xp to ubuntu as i used ntfs-config to get the drive writable in ubuntu11:12
ooBut it's slow as heck11:12
bigcalmoo: copy data to an external drive. Delete the windows partition. Resize unbuntu partition to fill the gap11:12
ooDamn i knew i'd have to go digging for an external drive lol11:13
bigcalmOr CDs/DVDs11:13
ooThe cd drive on this pc is buggered so the only way i could install ubuntu was via wubi11:13
ooUsb booting isn't supported on this computer ;( (Well, i've never got it to work!)11:14
bigcalmYou are having a fun time with it then :D11:14
ooOh i don't mind i'm tempted to use nab my brothers hd lol11:14
davmor2czajkowski: somebody kidnapped you last night,  I went to insult you and there you were gone I'm glad you're back you muppet :)11:15
ooI gave it to him in the first place (he's got 150gb free) it's a 250gb drive11:15
ooMy drive is 76gb (sobs)11:15
ooMy video folder alone is 20gb11:15
HazRPGbrb updating pidgin11:16
oimonHazRPG: just checked my pidgin on lucid and i'm on v2.6.6  - worth upgrading?11:20
MartijnVdSHazRPG: still not using irssi then?11:20
HazRPGMartijnVdS: nope lol11:20
MartijnVdSoimon: Empathy > * for IM, irssi > * for irc11:20
HazRPGoimon: erm... considering its 2.7.11 I'd say so :P11:21
HazRPGoimon: depends what you use it for11:21
oimongmail chat and irc11:21
oimontrawling the changelogs but can't see much in terms of features11:21
oimonmainly bugfixes11:22
HazRPGerm... its up to you then, I'd do it for the patches for bugfixes and protocol changes11:22
HazRPGthings like MSN, Yahoo, and I think Jabber have changed a fair bit over that time11:22
HazRPGI prefer to be up-to-date11:23
HazRPGbut that's me ^^11:23
* oimon adds yet another PPA to his system11:23
shaunogrrrrrrr lp :/11:23
HazRPGppa:pidgin-developers/ppa is for pidgin11:23
oimoni'm there :P11:24
HazRPGit always shocks me how things like pidgin never get updated on older ubuntu's11:24
shaunocan't figure out for the life of me how to submit a bug against the kernel in launchpad :/11:24
oimonnever felt the need to try empathy when pidgin works11:24
HazRPGesp. since those are things with protocols that always changes11:25
oimon2.6.6 is 14 months old11:25
oimonLTS without PPA would be lame11:25
HazRPGshauno: which kernel?11:25
shaunono idea, I can't boot a live system11:26
shaunoI'm not sure it's meant to be filed against a package when it's the installer's kernel11:26
HazRPGshauno: try: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux11:26
oimonHazRPG: now on 2.7.11 :P11:27
HazRPGoimon: \o/11:27
shaunothat tries to send me to bugzilla.kernel.org11:27
oimoni never think to upgrade stuff when apt-get does things for me11:27
HazRPGoimon: I do when it involves programs that rely on their own protocols11:27
HazRPGI recall back in the ol' 9.04 - 9.10 days, pidgin wouldn't connect to any of my accounts (except irc) because the protocols in question had dropped support for older versions11:30
HazRPGI think pidgin are always a version or two behind things like msn11:35
HazRPGbecause MSN protocol is currently v1911:35
HazRPGand I think pidgin is using MSNP1411:35
HazRPG(even the most recent)11:35
HazRPGmsn drop support for protocols whenever they release a completely new one, because they want people to use their most greatest (and resource hungry) application11:36
MartijnVdS\o/ gtalk/xmpp11:37
bigcalm\o/ telephone11:37
* DJones drops support/consideration for msn11:37
shaunoI think I've managed to move everyone worth talking to to gtalk.  except my parents :/11:41
bigcalmI'm stuck using skype as that's what most of my clients use11:45
bigcalmBusiness needs take priority11:45
gordi use skype/gtalk/facebook chat (its just jabber) - works out fine11:46
directhexmy company is a major force in xmpp, so...11:47
gordi still don't know much about xmpp, apart from that it seems quite versatile11:47
HazRPGshauno: lucky git, I've been trying for years :(11:48
oimonskype desktop sharing for ubuntu - any good?11:48
HazRPGoimon: erm I tried it about a year ago and it works quite well11:49
oimongets round NAT firewalls?11:49
directhexwe use xmpp desktop sharing at work11:49
HazRPGprobably works better now11:49
HazRPGdirecthex: xmpp has desktop sharing :o11:49
directhexHazRPG, well, empathy does. not sure what it uses on the back-end11:50
directhexprobably tubes11:50
HazRPGI think empathy needs a few things added to it before I consider using it myself11:50
HazRPGI like its clean interface, but it just lacks a few things for irc, etc11:50
HazRPGwoot! I have jabber account now \o/11:53
* popey wonders who is11:54
popeythey seem to be poking ubuntu-uk podcast server every second11:54
gordhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hViWJ35GXr8 shell looks more familiar every time i see videos of it..11:54
ooScary times ran outta space :/11:54
* HazRPG goes to whois11:55
HazRPGpopey: denmark?11:55
* HazRPG goes to update his LP with his jabber11:55
oojabber :D11:56
HazRPGah, there we go, my LP feels so much more complete now :D11:56
HazRPGoo: Well I don't want spam in my gmail ;)11:56
HazRPGalready get enough of that as it is :P11:56
ooeah i agree, i try to keep my gmail as clean as possible11:57
ooIt got overun by some stupid music advertiser recently though :/11:57
popey"Inbox (2892)"11:57
popey"You are currently using 3247 MB (42 %) of your 7567 MB."11:57
dogmatic69select all -> delete11:57
oocrikey i think i have about that many messages but i'm using about 1% lol11:58
HazRPG"Inbox (372)" here11:58
ooForever noattachements :(11:58
shaunomy idea of a tidy gmail is simply not missing anyone who should be getting paid11:58
HazRPG"0.9 GB (3%) of 27.4 GB"11:58
dogmatic69'Woohoo! You've read all the important messages in your inbox.'11:58
bigcalmWifi is depressing. scp a file from a client to my dev server at 1.9mb/s. scp that same file from the dev server to my laptop at 1.1mb/s :(11:58
dogmatic69HazRPG: beat 'You are currently using 472 MB (6 %) of your 7569 MB.'11:59
gordget some N wifi?11:59
ooCan't wait till flapping my arms around like a chicken composes a new email with the new google motion ;)11:59
HazRPGYeah I have 20GB extra because it was cheap, and I needed it for my picasaweb account11:59
dwatkinsI suspect wifi is indeed to blame, but are you sure it's the bottleneck, bigcalm?11:59
oimonarrgh my funds appeared in my account 1 day late for the ISA deadline :(11:59
dogmatic69oimon: unlucky12:00
bigcalmdev server is on wifi (revo under the tv), laptop is also on wifi. Maybe that's the issue12:00
bigcalmoimon: sue hsbc12:00
oimonsue everybody :)12:00
shaunothis is why no-one uses 16bit busses anymore12:00
oimonit's everyone elses fault except for this numpty who left it a bit late ;)12:01
popey32 bits of a bus12:01
ooUrgh hsbc12:01
popey(c) Compaq / Jon Cleese12:01
bigcalmHumm, it is. I just plugged the laptop into the router and the same file scp'd at 2.7mb/s12:01
TheOpenSourcererOK - Anyone know WTF this means?...12:01
TheOpenSourcererSSLError: [Errno 336265218] _ssl.c:337: error:140B0002:SSL routines:SSL_CTX_use_PrivateKey_file:system lib12:01
bigcalmI should move the dev server into the office. Can't remember the last time it was actually used with the tv12:02
MartijnVdSTheOpenSourcerer: sounds like your private key file isn't one12:02
ooLol i went in the pub the other day and accidently got out my wrong passport and showed them my passport that expired in 2000, the picture in it was when i was 5 years old, needless to say I got my drink :)12:02
oimonoo: which country are you in?12:02
HazRPGhmm, I wonder why LP is hiding my jabber account12:02
dwatkinsWhat is LP, HazRPG?12:03
ooUnited Kingdom12:03
HazRPGdwatkins: LaunchPad12:03
oimonpassports to buy beer nowadays :S i wouldn't even know where to find my passport12:03
ooNo i didn't buy beer with my passport12:03
TheOpenSourcererHmm. MartijnVdS - I just created the things. Thought it was a permissions issue but the server process owner can read both the key and the cert.12:03
oolol, they asked my for identity to prove i was over 1812:04
Laneyyou carry around an 11-year out of date passport?!12:04
bigcalmOh too look young again12:04
oimonpeople are always surprised when they find out i am in my mid 30s..they think i am 20 something12:05
ooNot usually no, but I had it on me then12:05
ooWhen i cut my hair i lost a few years12:05
ooAmazing what long hair can do12:05
DJonesARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH....Channel 5 are paying for 2 new series of big brother12:05
ooWhy didn't that tv show die years ago?12:05
bigcalmMy fiancee, who is 39 next month, hates it when she's asked for ID. Personally I'd take it as a compliment12:05
ooYeah same i'm quite irritated by being asked for id12:06
ooBut then again i'm 20, clean shaved not the tallest either ;)12:06
oimoni used to get ID'd when with a big group of lads..not very confiedence building12:06
oimonat least i still have my own hair compared to the boys with hair on their chests at 1412:06
ooLol :P I've been wanting to grow a small neat beard for ages12:07
bigcalmGrow a big bushy beard12:07
oimoni discovered something that they never teach you at school the other day.12:07
ooBut i haven't got enough hair follicles under my chin yet, it would be a patchwork mess12:07
ooWas anyone else unable to grow a decent beard at 20? It's quite a pain12:08
ooWondering when i actually can..12:08
oimonpick the 3 spoddiest girls from your year/class at school, and check them out at 35. invariably they have become beautiful and successful/talented12:08
ooGot to agree oimon, not the case all the time but alot of the time yeah12:09
ooMy friend lost 6 stone, quite a transformation, she was good looking anyway but what a stunner when all that was lost12:09
oimonmeanwhile a lot of the "attractive" girls that all the lads fancied are still single and body clocks ticking12:10
bigcalmhttp://cuth.eu/beard <- me at 2912:10
Laneynice robe12:10
bigcalmCheers, M&S finest12:11
oimondid anyone see the programme on bbc the other day about the guy whose english step-brother had become an islamist extremist?12:11
shaunono wizzard hat :(12:11
ooYou've got a decent head of hair for 2912:11
oimonhad the most disgusting beard i'd ever seen12:11
ooOne of my friends (19) is in the developing stages of mpb12:12
bigcalmoo: and 3 years later I still do ;)12:12
ooHow long d'ya reckon he's had this beard for? http://swick.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Weird%20Beards/Beard%202_Icy.jpg12:13
ooOne can only dream of a beard like this: http://swick.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Weird%20Beards/Beard%208_Full%20Face.jpg12:14
oimoni think those men are single.12:15
* oimon goes to clear his firefox cache12:15
MyrttiI wish I don't inherit my mums high hairline, it's a bit weird looking at times12:15
shaunothat's awesome.  zz-tip tucked into your sunnies12:15
shaunoer, *top12:15
ooI wish i had a hairline12:15
ooI can never brish my hair properly because i can't find it!12:16
oimonwhen i had long hair, women would stop me and ask for tips on keeping it in good condition :o|12:16
Myrttishe reminds reverend mother helen mohiam from the dune movie at times12:16
oo^ same12:16
shaunoheh, I had that.  never had any idea what to tell them either12:16
ooTo be honest i found using nothing but the bare essentials, no hair masks, yada yada was the best way to keep it in the best condition12:17
Myrttinot dying it every two months helps12:17
shaunoI think that's the trick.  don't drown it in chemicals and see what it's capable of doing for itself12:17
oo^ I tried explaining that to my girlfriend12:18
bigcalmpopey: 1/7 :O12:18
ooBut it's harder said than done12:18
shaunoI tried dying mine once.  it was meant to go black, and came out blue.  nevar again.12:18
Myrttior washing every day, every other day is the max... mine goes all hemp if I wash too often12:18
ooI get greasy hair fast, i have to wash it daily :(12:19
shaunonow I just shave it off whenever I notice it's back.  problem solved :)12:19
ooDon't suit skinhead12:20
Myrttiit might get greasy so fast because you wash it so much ;-)12:20
ooHaven't got the right shape of face12:20
MyrttiI should have a good inch or two cut12:20
ooThis could be true12:21
directhexmy grandad died with a full head of hair. my dad's in his 60s without any hair loss. things could be worse.12:21
popeyhehe bigcalm12:22
shaunowhy do redhat keep trying to sell me training :/  I assume they've seen their own prices12:22
oimonbigcalm: what's that code you're trading with popey?12:23
MyrttiI'm happy the chemo hasn't taken mums hair, she has almost as much good condition hair as I do12:23
popeyoimon: see my latest tweet12:23
oimon7/7 :)12:24
MyrttiI don't even know how much first class stamp is here, even less UK... futile12:25
oimonwonder if popey's tweets should get plumbed straight into the channel for clarity :P12:26
PendulumMyrtti: I made an guess (and was correct)12:26
ooBought some yesterday, £5:12 for a pack of 12 first class, they rose 5p today12:26
Pendulumpopey: I should have actually outscored you on that, but I hit a wrong button on one of answers so we ended up even ;-)12:26
oimonman, it sucks how slow servers do their POST checks :(12:27
oimon5 mins of waiting around12:27
directhexPOST on desktops is pretty useless, though. "is there a cpu/ good enough. BOOT FASTOR!"12:29
shaunonot sure anyone actually wants to see their bios crawl thru their ram anymore12:30
popeywho reboots?12:30
shaunoit was cute when I had 8Mb.  now, not so much12:30
oimoni had just removed RAM, so it stuck half way for me to press F1 too :(12:31
oimonmachine hasn't come up so i have to go back in the cold room :(12:31
bigcalmI fear that today might be a sub day12:32
* bigcalm slithers off to feed himself12:33
ooWhat the hell is eating up all the space12:36
ooI had 4gb free 5 mins ago, now 0bytes free, i'm screwed when i logout12:36
shaunodark matter12:36
oimonHazRPG: do you use docky? my pidgin docklet helper thing doesn't tell me how many unread lines in the conversation now:(12:37
popeyi blame HP printers12:37
oo41kb free space12:37
HazRPGoimon: no I don't12:37
shaunolast I heard you were trying to shuttle data between partitions & externals? is there a chance you got the destination wrong for a copy?12:37
ooNo everything going direct to the external hardrive from the windows xp parition12:38
* popey tickles gmb12:39
ooIs there a command where i can view whats takin up what and lists it by size?12:39
popeydu -hs /12:39
popeybut easier to run the disk space analyser12:39
popeywhich is in the accesories menu12:39
oodu is running now, i haven't got that disk space analyser12:40
popeyhow come?12:41
popeynot ubuntu?12:41
ooIt was originally unitl i removed gnome and put lxde on it12:41
ooMy computer simply can't handle gnome12:41
oo512mb ram12:41
popeyoimon: look in /var/log12:42
popeyany big files in there?12:42
popeydu -hs /var/log12:42
oopopey is there a way to exclude a directory12:42
popeyfrom what?12:43
davmor2popey: did you pull the plug out of the ocean?12:44
dwatkins       -x, --one-file-system12:45
dwatkins              skip directories on different file systems12:45
ooUh oh, everythings starting to go wrong12:45
* gmb hugs popey12:45
dwatkinsis that what you need, oo?12:45
ooI didn't get any of the last responses, xchat crashed12:45
ooAnd again..12:46
ooWell i just made 580mb by moving my pictures folder onto the xp paritition, that was the only thing in my linux partition12:47
ooI really didn't want to do that as i can't afford to lose them12:47
jonsainthi all. why do i keep getting package operation failed when i try to install smething from the software centre?12:48
MartijnVdSMinecrafters: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gjrf4/iama_indie_game_developer_who_made_a_commercially/12:48
gordoh yeah, graze sent me chocolate12:49
oimonreturning to pidgin v2.6.6 and reminding himself not to fiddle with things that work12:50
HazRPGoimon: it could just be docky needs updating too12:50
oimonHazRPG:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/dockmanager/+bug/74016812:50
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 740168 in DockManager "Pidgin Helper not showing unread messages" [Undecided,New]12:50
gordactually a honeycomb flapjack with chocolate, you are all jealous :P12:51
czajkowskidavmor2: bleugh12:51
oimonHazRPG: possibly, but that might break something else :P12:51
shaunoMartijnVdS: that's fantastic.  "You seemed to have combined the best parts of LEGO and Heroin together."512:51
oimonIt seems that the method used in the helper, "PurpleConversationGetData" isn't exported through DBUS by pidgin anymore.12:52
HazRPGoimon: ah, I wonder why12:52
oimoni'm surprised that others don't use this - how else can you see the number of unread lines in irc/pidgin?12:52
jonsainthelp! wifi problem12:55
oimonyay works again. now starting to worry that unity launcher might not show this ...12:55
HazRPGquestion about bzr: do I do, bzr whoami "My Name <email@address.domain>", or, bzr whoami "LaunchPad.Name <email@address.domain>" ?12:58
ooAt last: The moving is complete13:02
MartijnVdSHazRPG: bzr help whoami13:02
MartijnVdSHazRPG: it haz exampleses!13:02
jonsaintanyone help for wifi problem??13:02
czajkowskiivanka: ping13:03
ivankaczajkowski: you caught me with purse in hand heading for lunch - how may I help you?13:03
czajkowskiivanka: is the logo wrong I have on my twibbon?13:04
czajkowskior did you find out who loaded it up ?13:04
ivankaczajkowski: no it isn't. I didn't find who loaded it. I just thought that if we did find who loaded it we could make it into generic ubuntu rather than 10.0413:05
ivankaczajkowski: I think we could get better  bigger number with a "we are ubuntu" than with a release specifica13:05
czajkowskiaye I agree13:05
ivankaczajkowski: would help if it were administered by some person (or people) who can tinker when needed13:06
czajkowskiyeah the thing is anyone can upload any image :)13:06
czajkowskiivanka: contact twibbbon and ask them can they remove 10.0413:06
ivankaczajkowski: good idea! will see what I can do13:06
czajkowskienjoy lunch13:07
ivankaczajkowski: anyway - this has become my little side project this week rather randomly :-)13:07
ivankaczajkowski: I will!13:07
jonsaintanyone??? help!13:07
czajkowskisorry about that13:07
czajkowskiI blame iaian he pointed out I had the old one13:07
jonsaintdont anyone know about wifi and drivers?13:10
diplojonsaint, just hang around it's lunch time.13:11
diploIf someone can help they will13:11
jonsaintil pop back laters13:11
czajkowskijonsaint: just ask your question and if people can help they will13:11
diploI'd stay connected jonsaint13:12
diploPeople will message you in here13:12
jonsaintkeep getting system error: install archives failed on everything i try13:12
oodoes gparted list the ubuntu partition or just any other partitions and hides ubuntus one13:12
popeyczajkowski: is it really our place to tell twibbon what logos to host?13:14
popey(I think not)13:14
czajkowskipopey: no I'm not saying that...13:14
popey13:06:37 < czajkowski> ivanka: contact twibbbon and ask them can they remove 10.0413:15
czajkowskipopey: just the word13:15
czajkowskithe twibbon is perfect rather than uploading the same image again13:15
czajkowskiit was just an idea13:15
czajkowskito remove the word after it to make it generic13:15
czajkowskiI perhaps didnt explain myself very well13:17
gordgrr, if letter boxes were bigger then graze could send me more tastier stuff. royal mail ruins everything!13:18
oimongord: how about a note on the parcel: leave on doorstep/neighbour/behind plant13:19
ooAnyone know much about gparted?13:27
popeyoo: wassup?13:27
ooI installed ubuntu via wubi13:27
ooI've just nuked xp after copying everything off it so there's 76gb of space i need to give ubuntu13:28
ooWell, i need to give ubuntu the entire hd space now13:28
popeyyou re-installing?13:28
ooNo, i'm on ubuntu now, i've just wiped so i have 76gb of space free13:29
ooHow do i resize my ubuntu partition to make use of that free space13:29
ooI can't see ubuntu in my partition list13:29
popeyuhm, hang on13:29
popeyso you started with a disk that had windows on it, and installed ubuntu to a file inside that windows partition13:30
ooWell, i installed it via wubi13:30
oohttp://paste.ubuntu.com/590215/ < sudo fdisk -l13:30
popeyso that will give you a file inside your windows partition13:30
popeycontaining ubuntu13:30
popeyare you currently booted to the ubuntu install that was done with wubi, or a live cd?13:31
HazRPGI just uploaded my first lot of code to launchpad \o/13:31
ooCurrently booted, using it now13:31
popeyHazRPG: are the words "hello" and "world" featured?13:31
popeyoo: and you have done what exactly to windows?13:31
HazRPGpopey: nope, it's a recipe for Calibre ;)13:31
HazRPGits the first of hopefully many that will help get some arabic support into Calibre :D13:32
ooKilled it, it's the whole ntfs partition is empty13:32
popeythat ntfs partition _contained_ your ubuntu install13:32
ooI dreaded that13:32
HazRPGsince it doesn't handle arabic well, I'm planning on reporting some bugs to calibre13:32
ooOh fu...13:32
HazRPGyet it seems to handle other RTL languages...13:33
ooSo as soon as i shutdown/reboot and attempt to start it up again i'm royally screwed?13:33
popeyalmost certainly, yes13:33
ooShoot me now13:34
* popey reloads13:34
popey*blam* *blam*13:34
* DJones throws a grenade over13:34
ooI'm screwed, no cd drive, no usb booting, floppy drive, and two gunshot and a grenade wound13:35
popeydo you have a usb disk handy?13:36
X3Nincase anyone is in london and interested: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-uk-list/2011-April/msg00000.html13:36
X3N*in case13:36
popeyplug it in and copy your data off?13:36
ooMy datas safe, i have no viable way of getting ubuntu back on the computer though :/13:36
ooI backed that up before i nuked xp13:36
ooI guess i shouldn't even wonder into the install via floppy disk method?13:37
DJonesoo: Can you take the drive out and put it in another computer to install onto13:37
dwatkinsoo: how did you install initially?13:38
popeyhe used wubi13:38
ooWindows was put on there when the cd drive worked13:38
dwatkinsoh right, I assume the motherboard doesn't support USB booting, from what you say13:38
oonot too sure i've never got it to work13:39
oohttp://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/professionalpc/Scenic/ScenicC/scenicC.htm < My computer13:39
dwatkinsis replacing the CD drive possible?13:40
oimonX3N: that's a good pub13:43
DJonesoo: http://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/professionalpc/FAQ/USB_BIOSUpdate.pdf suggests that USB boot should work13:43
X3Noimon: yes, yes it is :)13:44
ooWell i've just got a cd drive, my brother wont notice13:44
oimonX3N: don't bump your head though13:44
X3None of the few advantages of not being tall :)13:44
DJonesoo: Press F2 during boot to get into boot to get into bios and have a look for a boot order selection13:44
ooYeah i've fond that in the past13:45
oohttp://paste.ubuntu.com/590216/ < Only bootable options when going to the boot order13:46
oimonmaybe wubi installer should include an option to upgrade an existing wubi install to a dedicated partition13:47
DJonesOn machines I've got, usb boot normally only appears if it finds a bootable usb stick inserted though, or hard disk drive has a sub setting for a physical hdd and a 2nd one for USB drive13:47
ooIf it actually is bootable then i could try again13:48
ooThe motherboard is a D1544 by Fujitsu13:48
oohttp://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/Boards/Motherboards/Fujitsu/D1544/D1544.htm < tech info13:49
HazRPGhi ho hi ho... its off to town I go13:49
HazRPGcatch ya later guys13:49
DJonesoo: Looking at the boot order from that page, it only lists floppy/HDD/CD/Network boot13:50
dwatkinsnetwork boot.... hmmm13:51
dwatkinsoo: do you have another machine on which you could either install linux or boot from CD and use as a network server, that might be an option but it's not easy.13:51
popeyI'd just yank the disk out and slam it in another machine13:56
popeymuch less effort IMO13:56
popey(assuming you have another machine)13:57
oimonor borrow a CD drive13:57
oimoni give away machines that are newer than that ..where are you?13:57
ooI'll try that option in a sec popey once the hd is gone i go lol13:58
oimonhave about 20 dimension 2400/3000 to offload onto students who already blew their cash on idevices13:58
ooI'm not a student atm, just not in a greast situation atm :/14:00
ooIf you want to see how the computer running right now this is it: http://i.imgur.com/egfry.jpg14:01
hamitronHMRC suck :/14:04
shaunouhoh .. what'd they do you for?14:04
hamitronbut I am getting a lot of phone calls for support, for the end of year14:05
hamitronseems their servers can't handle it, and my clients always bug me first14:05
hamitronone of my clients loves it though14:06
hamitronhe thinks it is great 70+ employee are going to get their wages delayed14:06
dwatkinsI suppose I should do my self-assessment with HMRC.14:07
oimonumm dwatkins wasn't that due in jan?14:07
dwatkinsoimon: yeah14:08
dwatkinsI didnt get the letter for ages because I've moved house14:08
oimoni owed them 34p14:08
dwatkinsI was told I didn't need to do it last year, then they sent me a letter anyway, then a fine14:08
dwatkinshopefully they owe me money which might mean I don't have to pay, but I've never done it before, so am at a loss about the process, need to read-up on how to fill the forms out14:09
hamitronI just pay someone to do mine14:10
popeyhttp://www.geteasypeasy.com/ - "Millions of people worldwide use the EasyPeasy Operating System to make their netbook a lean, mean surfing machine."14:10
popeywonder how they measure that14:10
dwatkinshamitron: I think I probably should do that also14:10
hamitronmillions of trillions or whoopyllions14:10
oimonpopey: i hear apple make more ludicrous claims :P14:11
popeythey can be backed up with sales data14:11
hamitrondwatkins: costs me £20 every quarter14:11
hamitronwell worth it :)14:11
hamitronand the girl who does them is rather pleasing to the eye14:12
oimonpopey: ahem http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/03/steve-jobs-reality-distortion-takes-its-toll-on-truth/14:12
dwatkinsblimey, hamitron - what kind of company is that which you use?14:12
dwatkinsplease excuse my ancient profanity14:12
hamitronshe does it self employed14:13
hamitron£10 per hour14:13
oimonchinese sweatshop?14:13
dwatkinsI imagine it's easy for someone who knows what information is required etc.14:13
ooI'll see you lot later14:14
hamitronthat £20 includes the organising of my books too14:14
ooTurning of the computer now, god knows when i'll be back14:14
dwatkinsgood luck, oo14:14
bigcalmGood luck oo14:14
hamitronshe is a saint to put up with my record keeping ;)14:14
oimonoo: did anyone suggest a dd over the network?14:14
hamitrontalking of tablets14:15
oimonoo: are you on the machine that is broken, and do you need to keep any data?14:16
ooTO be honest i think i'm going to try popey's suggestion and put the hardrive in something else and try installing it that way14:16
ooNo i;ve backed up all the data14:16
ooLol this is the machine: http://i.imgur.com/egfry.jpg14:16
oimonoo: yes, that's easier solution - i won't complicate things14:16
ooNo working cd drive, floppy drive only, can't boot from usb14:16
oimonexcept you could extract the live cd onto a 1gb partition and make it bootable14:17
dwatkinsoo: yeah, if you can't boot from CD that may be the only way, I just hope the other machine has similar enough hardware it boots ok when you move the disk back14:17
ooI'll try figure out a way14:18
ooIt's riving me a bit mad, im going to go outside for a bit and relax lol14:18
ooWhen i'm next on will be when i've got lubuntu up and running again and it's all going well14:19
ooSo i'll see you.... in a few years lol :) Cheers for the help!14:19
oimoni discovered today that not all 240pin PC2-5300 RAM is the same :(14:19
oimonfully buffered ram is different shape :(14:20
brobostigongood afternoon everyone.14:23
shauno'lo bob14:23
brobostigonhi shauno14:24
xwxhello good night14:26
brobostigonnos da xwx14:26
xwxbrobostigon: hi?14:26
brobostigonxwx: you said good night, i replied with good night in welsh.14:26
xwxbrobostigon: What are you doing now?14:26
brobostigonxwx: playng with google android app inventor14:27
xwxbrobostigon: I am in China14:27
xwxbrobostigon: And you??14:28
xwxbrobostigon: Where are you?14:29
oimonLOL.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU14:29
xwxbrobostigon: My english is poor14:29
brobostigonxwx: my welsh is aswell, only more practice will help, :)14:30
* bigcalm shudders at autotune14:30
oimonbigcalm: used to good effect here :)14:31
oimonwatch out for the ray guns14:31
bigcalmStill, I can't stand the sound of it14:31
* bigcalm watches with the sound off14:31
xwxbrobostigon: Can you speak chinese?14:32
oimonbigcalm: the original interview is even funnier..so that's what it's like to only have 1 brain cell14:33
* hamitron aspires to those with a brain cell14:35
brobostigonxwx: none, sorry.14:37
oimonxwx is linux popular in china?14:38
xwxoimon: no14:38
oimonnot even red flag linux?14:39
* brobostigon unsubcribes from the gnome-shell mailing list, as he didnt like the way a discussion was going.14:39
MartijnVdSRAGEQUIT ;)14:41
xwxoimon: what say?14:43
brobostigongood afternoon MartijnVdS :914:43
oimonxwx:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux14:43
gordbrobostigon, the fedora one?14:44
xwxoimon: I'm a novice at linuxsystem14:46
brobostigongord: gnome's gnome-shell mailing list.14:46
gordbrobostigon, right, i mean there is a large thread about fedora testing on there14:46
xwxoimon: i am using ubuntu system14:47
brobostigongord: that is the one that annoyed me abit.14:47
xwxoimon: where are you?14:48
xwxoimon: hello?14:49
jpdsxwx: Probably safe to assume that most of us are in the UK.14:50
oimonxwx:  i am in uk, as are most of us, for chinese language forums and irc there are also #ubuntu-cn and http://forum.ubuntu.org.cn/ if you wish14:52
brobostigongord: simply put, some of the views that were expressed, that clearly werent from people who either knew whatthey were talking about, and or, regurgitating other people's views, and not their own.14:53
xwxoimon: thanks a lot14:54
gordif you have post-its on your monitor with things to do on them, and one falls off. that means you don't have to do it right?14:56
brobostigonspoton yes, :)14:56
HippyChick1depends on how interesting it was...14:59
shaunoboy I love early shifts.  getting home at 3pm feels like cheating :)15:01
bigcalmI used to enjoy late shifts, getting up around 11am was very relaxing15:08
shaunothe difference between 6-6.30 and 6-2.30 doesn't seem to do the numbers justice15:09
MooDoohullo all15:33
brobostigonafternoonings MooDoo :)15:34
MooDoohows natty for stability at the moment?   got a show n tell for our local camera club :)15:35
brobostigonwith gnome-shell here, its pretty good.15:36
Tommeh(Just don't use two monitors.. Then it's confusing)15:36
MooDoolaptop to i won't be using monitors15:36
brobostigonbecareful of gpu lockups, if you have specifc intel gpu's.15:37
MooDoobrobostigon: dell studio 173715:37
brobostigonlike the one in my eeepc 900.15:37
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 715096 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "[i945gm] GPU lockup (ESR: 0x00000001 IPEHR: 0x02000011)" [High,Incomplete]15:38
brobostigonalso interesting are some of its duplicates with different intel gpu's.15:39
MooDoook i'll have a think15:39
shaunoI think the safest claim is that it'd be wise to spend some time with it before flashing it around in public :)15:40
brobostigonMooDoo: i havent had a gpu lockup in around a week though, so it may have beem worked out.15:40
MooDooshauno: it's only really to show it off and demonstrate some apps with the photographer in mind, i don't really need natty :)15:40
shaunoaye, but I wouldn't demo anything else without trying it on first.  just so you're less surprised than they are15:41
MooDooaye thanks :)15:41
shaunoeven if it's death by powerpoint, I want to see it before they do :/15:41
MooDooshauno: i'm only really showing gimp, shotwell and a few raw processing apps15:43
MooDoonothing to over strenuous15:43
shaunowell, rescuing the old laptop's partition table went flawlessly :D  phew!15:52
=== Guest27687 is now known as issyl0
brobostigonhmm, why doesnt banshee have something as basic as a graphical equaliser, :(16:19
brobostigonouch, banshee is using 56% of my ram,16:24
AzelphurCan Ubuntu server move a process to a different core when that core gets busy?16:25
AzelphurIE: I have 8 game servers running on 4 cores, would it be better to taskset each server or let the kernel handle moving the servers to keep everything running smoothly16:26
MattJNot an easy question :)16:26
AzelphurIndeed :)16:26
AzelphurI saw it when I was running a ruby benchmark on my desktop, the process seemed to hop between a few cores before finishing16:26
MattJDo the processes communicate with each other?16:26
Azelphurnot at all, entirely separate16:26
MattJThen I don't think it matters much16:27
gordlet the kernel do its thing16:27
Azelphurcool :)16:27
Azelphurwhen one server is full it'll 100% a core, so I assume the kernel would shuffle everything around such that it fits ok16:27
MattJIf they did, it could make sense to bind each to its own core, it prevents unnecessary context switching in some cases16:27
MattJYou don't have to worry about that :)16:28
AzelphurI don't have to worry about full servers? :o16:28
* Azelphur glares :p16:28
MattJNot until they overheat :)16:29
Azelphurmore worried about lag :p16:29
* brobostigon shakes fist at xserver-xorg-video-intel16:39
brobostigonwow, huge lag :(16:42
Sr_ubuntuHello. How i can create one theme mouse from zero? GNOME.16:51
ali1234brobostigon: i tested natty on my 945 system, gpu works ok, but fan never switches on16:55
ali1234so gpu lockups could be related to overheating16:55
ali1234i think it's broken my battery too16:55
brobostigonali1234: under normal running, its reporting temperture around 55-59c.16:56
gordali1234, you need a fan for a 945 system?16:57
ali1234when i picked it up it nearly hot enough to burn me16:57
brobostigonali1234: my eeepc never gets that hot,, it would burn me.16:58
ali1234probably wouldn't need a fan if you didn't insist on hammering the GPU with flashy effects16:58
gordit doesn't need a fan16:58
gordi have several fanless 945 systems16:58
Azelphurbtw popey / HazRPG I was talking to you guys a couple of months ago about a guy DoSing various people and you said I should mail the abuse@ instead of publicly shaming :p16:59
* ali1234 blames gord for breaking acpi support on i94516:59
Azelphurit's been a month now, no reply from comcast abuse :(16:59
AzelphurI mailed them packet logs, connection logs, and a list of forum threads from other server admins talking about how to mitigate attacks from the guy17:00
ali1234did he stop dosing you?17:01
Azelphurprobably, I just iptabled him straight away and carried on17:01
popeymany abuse@ places don't reply at all17:01
Azelphurother people running game servers obviously arn't as educated / don't have the access to do that17:02
popeythey just do what they have to do17:02
popeythey are under no obligation to contact you back, you're not their customer17:02
Azelphurpopey: I see, his connection is still up :)17:02
popeythey may have contacted him17:02
popeyor may have done nothing17:02
shaunomost in the US won't do jack without legal threats.  they're too busy taking the front end of the *IAA's abuse to bother worrying about anything they can ignore.17:03
davmor2http://richarddawkins.net/articles/612418-texas-beer-joint-sues-church-over-lightning-strike moreati just linked to this it's funny as hell :D17:03
ali1234lol... intellectual checkmate17:04
AzelphurI did just notice something cool, their domain expires in may17:05
AzelphurWonder if they'll let it expire :)17:05
ali1234fake according to snopes17:05
Azelphurshauno: \o/17:06
shaunoI think snopes is fake, myself17:06
popeyi think shauno is fake, myself17:06
shauno(genuinely.  don't trust anything you wrote on the internet, unless snopes writes it on the internet ..?)17:06
Azelphuri think popey is fake, myself17:06
shaunoheh, I'm serious :/17:07
popeyshauno: snopes tends to have citations17:07
shaunothey do17:07
popeyand its not as black and white as you make it out17:07
shaunoala http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/spiders.asp17:07
shaunocited "PC Professional" magazine doesn't, and has never existed17:07
popeysee, I dont believe that :)17:08
popey"Ziff-Davis publishes seven titles in continental Europe. PC Professional, PC Direct and Internet Professional published in Germany and PC Expert, PC Direct and Yahoo! Internet Life in France"17:09
brobostigonquestion, do we have any working ocr software?17:10
popeythat took seconds17:10
shaunoI believe that was PC Pro, not PC Professional17:10
shaunothe germans had a PC Professionall too.  neither of them ever had an article by this Lisa Holst tho17:11
shaunomost of snopes is just alt.folklore.urban rehashed with no actual research.  so citations are just repeated over and over again without ever having existed17:12
shaunothere's people that have chased these by calling the publishers, the us library of congress, etc.  we just take snopes at face value, while they teach us not to do so17:14
ali1234maybe all the people who claim to have done that are just making it up17:14
ali1234maybe NOTHING IS REAL OH GOD17:14
DJonesali1234: To quote teh rocky horror picture show, "Life is an illusion, reality is a figment of the imagination"17:15
ali1234sorry i can't hear you over my existential crisis17:16
davmor2DJones: So lets do the timewarp again17:16
DJonesdavmor2: Its just a jump to the left..17:16
davmor2ali1234: just pinch yourself if it hurts you're really and therefore the universe is real too17:17
shaunounless you don't believe your body is 'you' :)17:18
shauno"I think", "i do", but I don't "beat my heart".  my heart beats for me.  where the line between "you" and your body as a possession lays, is never that obvious :)17:19
shauno.. I'll go back to mistreating my laptop now.  the transplant is not without some teething problems.17:22
ali1234brobostigon: tesseract works17:27
brobostigonali1234: thank you, i was just looking on help.ubuntu.com/community  :)17:28
Azelphurhttp://www.crunchgear.com/2011/04/05/modernized-commodore-64-pc-will-confuse-co-workers/ win :D17:31
shaunoI can't believe that's actually going anywhere.  commodore usa  have misfired repeatedly trying to sell PCs last few years17:33
Azelphurseems quite novel to me :p17:33
shaunoI keep trying to pick up a tower case from their last attempt to rehouse my a1200, but it's either stupid shipping prices, or flats of 5017:34
shaunoaww, they have shots of the amiga models they keep promising now, and they're just boxes :(17:47
brobostigongood evening HazRPG :)18:10
HazRPGbrobostigon: good evening18:10
HazRPGhmm, that's annoying... apparently my thread on mobileread.com has been looked at 22 times... but no one has commented :S18:12
HazRPGand the one of someone asking for arabic feeds, I commented and uploaded a mobi of the most recent news feeds in arabic, but warned about the issues I was having has been looked at a further ~100 times but no comments... I think people have been downloading it, just not caring the thank or at least help fix problems that's with it :(18:14
HazRPGhum-bug :(18:15
bigcalmHi kids18:17
bigcalmWaiting and working from hospital18:17
Pendulumbigcalm: you okay?18:17
bigcalmPendulum: I'm fine. Visiting Hayley's brother who isn't18:18
Pendulumbigcalm: aww :( I hope things get better for him18:18
shaunoHazRPG: this is the miracle of free software.  mostly, miraculous that people face the onslaught and carry on gifting their time regardless :)18:18
bigcalmLeft work early to drive us here, but brought my actual laptop this time instead of just my eeepc18:18
HazRPGbigcalm: :( *hugs*18:18
bigcalmHe's on a ventilator and under sedation, so hopefully he's comfortable18:19
bigcalmTime to go and have some tea. Taaraa for now18:19
Azelphurdid anyone solve screen glare yet? XD18:22
AzelphurI like my desk being near the window for sunshine and blue skies, but I can't see my damned screen18:23
HazRPGAzelphur: screen glare?18:26
* Azelphur takes photo18:26
HazRPGadd three flaps to your monitor :)18:26
HazRPGtop, left, right :)18:26
HazRPGthat'll solve screen glare ;)18:27
TommehAnd take you right back to the 80's, all at the same time.18:27
MartijnVdSHazRPG: hey at least I told you how to make it prettier :P18:27
AzelphurHazRPG: would work if I wasn't quad screen :P18:27
HazRPGTommeh: i know right!18:28
HazRPGMartijnVdS: you did?18:28
HazRPGAzelphur: would, depends how far apart they are18:28
MartijnVdSHazRPG: yes.. ?18:28
AzelphurHazRPG: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/March%202010/IMG_20110406_182439.jpg xD18:28
Azelphurthey are touching lol18:28
MartijnVdSHazRPG: # coding=utf-818:28
HazRPGif they're all just next to each other... then same would still apply, except you'd need more cardboard for the top half :P18:29
MartijnVdSHazRPG: I think one problem is that most people here don't read Arabic very well18:29
Azelphurstrategic curtain positioning \o/18:30
shaunoif you do, love nit picking, and fancy helping, I'm sure there's an i18n team somewhere that'd love to borrow you :)18:30
HazRPGshauno: heh, just noticed your comment... I must agree, since I can /read/ arabic (sort of) yet I'm still making recipes regardless xD18:31
MartijnVdSshauno: Ireland switched to Arabic? 8-)18:31
shaunoMartijnVdS: I more meant somewhere in ubuntuland :p18:31
HazRPGMartijnVdS: ah, yes I know what your talking about now :)... yeah I'll be getting that moved over so that it works better like that :)18:32
shaunoand no, no arabic here.  we're still working on english.18:32
MartijnVdSshauno: you'll get the hang of it eventually :)18:32
MartijnVdSshauno: http://www.ef.com/epi/ef-epi-ranking/18:32
HazRPGAzelphur: I have a full length curtain to block out my glare problems :D18:32
HazRPGshauno: hmm, nit picking, i18n team?18:33
MartijnVdSI have vertical blinds \o/18:33
shaunoi18n is Internationalization, but a whole lot easier to type18:34
shauno(eg, arabic isn't a skill your stereotypical contributor possesses, and one that could be handy to the right teams :)18:35
HazRPGAzelphur: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n1C_fqyz0Rt8GAWU7j1ZHQ?feat=directlink (picture 1)18:36
HazRPGAzelphur: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nkVPvIS2xXSn2PUqzCBu4w?feat=directlink (picture 2 - closed curtain)18:37
HazRPGworks for me :)18:37
HazRPGif I really need the light, I can open the door to the right of me (or to the left if your looking at the picture linked above)... and insta-extra light! (because straight on from that door is the half-glass door to the outside world!18:38
HazRPGshauno: ah cool, I'm with you now... I might need to further my skill level in arabic reading first :P18:40
HazRPGMartijnVdS: hehe18:40
HazRPGMartijnVdS: that's how I roll, magic is in the blood ;)18:41
shaunoHazRPG: :)  if you can get by enough to spot where it breaks, good practice & good hunting :)  just a thought18:41
HazRPGshauno: indeed!18:41
HazRPGMartijnVdS: hmmm... I'm curious as to why Egypt isn't on that link you sent... considering they teach English to all 5 year olds and improve on it as they progress through school18:43
HazRPGMartijnVdS: yet saudi is on there, and I'm pretty sure saudi local schools don't teach english until they're like mid-teens18:44
fujisanHello may i ask a question?18:44
HazRPGfujisan: that's what we're here for, fire away18:44
fujisanis there a zero tolerance policy against racism in Ubuntu channels?18:44
MartijnVdSHazRPG: they might not have run the poll there18:44
fujisani just experienced racism in a dutch ubuntu channel i rebelled against it and i got banned18:44
fujisanmakes me really sad things like this still happen in the 21st century in ubuntu channels esp.18:45
fujisanit happened in a dutch ubuntu channel so i shouldnt be too surprised18:45
HazRPGfujisan: as far as I know, no racism is in the code of conduct... so in theory they shouldn't allow it18:45
MartijnVdSfujisan: the Dutch ubuntu community was annoying when I left 4 years ago18:45
fujisanmaybe i overreacted but still18:46
MartijnVdSfujisan: it hasn't gotten better..18:46
fujisanMartijnVdS unfortunately18:46
MartijnVdSfujisan: just report it "up" to the next council18:46
MartijnVdSthey'll help fix it18:46
HazRPGfujisan: we're friendly enough here, so stick around :)18:46
fujisanoh ok thanks18:46
MartijnVdSHazRPG: Well, we try to be :)18:46
brobostigondefinatly, :)18:47
HazRPGMartijnVdS: trying is better than *not* at all :P18:47
MartijnVdSHazRPG: good point18:47
fujisanMartijnVdS i captured it in my comic chat client it's in dutch http://imgur.com/gFbol18:47
fujisansupposedly it was a joke but i didnt find it funny18:47
HazRPGfujisan: haha winner! I haven't seen microsoft chat in since back in the win98 days!18:48
MartijnVdSfujisan: It's a joke, but a tasteless one18:48
HazRPGI thought that died years ago :(18:48
HazRPGI don't get why microsoft killed support for that, I thought it was a pretty awesome client18:49
MartijnVdSfujisan: complaining to the ops should work, especially if it happens (more) often18:49
HazRPGI managed to knock together my own lil character for it n everything back when I was 15 :)18:49
gordonjcpfujisan: is it even worth putting that into Google Translate?18:49
MartijnVdSHazRPG: you're still 15, right?18:49
shaunowoah.  howdy fujisan18:49
MartijnVdSgordonjcp: no.18:49
HazRPGMartijnVdS: it won't happen more often if he's banned though :/18:50
HazRPGMartijnVdS: I wish xD18:50
HazRPGlife is so much simple when your 15 :P18:50
fujisanMartijnVdS not to the belgian op he banned me18:53
fujisanhe didnt even see it as a problem18:53
MartijnVdSfujisan: also depends on the way you ask/tell of course18:53
fujisanhi shauno :)18:53
MartijnVdSfujisan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam18:54
fujisani followed the path of righteous indignation wish was probably wrong18:54
fujisani think i just won't go there anymore even if they ever unban me18:54
fujisanHazRPG ye for sure18:55
MartijnVdSfujisan: but if you don't follow the "official" Ubuntu-irc path to get unbanned, they'll never learn18:55
fujisanye sure18:55
fujisani'll try18:55
MartijnVdSfujisan: you might want to point at the official logs rather than your image though18:56
lubotu3Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too; for older LoCo channel logs, see http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/18:56
fujisanthe channel is logged so that shouldnt be a problem18:56
fujisani just dont have the logs myself18:56
shaunothe image made me chuckle  (don't understand the text myself), but their own logs are impartial (and easier to read :)18:57
fujisani dont see the offtopic channel listed18:57
Myrttiwhich offtopic channel?18:58
* bigcalm returns for a bit18:59
brobostigonwb bigcalm :)18:59
bigcalmCheers :)19:00
bigcalmAs far as hospitals go, this one isn't too bad19:00
brobostigonthats good.19:00
* brobostigon points out now.he doesnt like hospitals, he has been in hospital enough times.19:01
bigcalmPleasing that I'm actually able to get a strong enough signal for hspda19:01
brobostigonwow, :)19:01
bigcalmThank you ;)19:02
bigcalmCorrect letters, wrong order19:02
bigcalmI could just say edge19:02
brobostigonnot accurate.19:02
bigcalmHo hum19:02
brobostigonhsdpa is a 3g technology, edge is 2.5g.19:03
bigcalmMy phone says H instead of 3G or 3.5G19:03
brobostigonbigcalm: so does mine,19:03
bigcalmAh, I see19:03
brobostigonand 2.2.119:03
bigcalm2.3.3 CyanogenMod 7 rc419:04
brobostigonheh :(19:04
bigcalmIsn't there a build for your handset?19:04
HazRPGfujisan: still can't believe that microsoft chat still gets used! :)19:06
brobostigonbigcalm: yes and no, CM have working source for htc dream, however, to try and do anything with it, gingerbread uses too much ram and memory, k9 consitently restarts for example, because it tryies to use ram, but gets killed, when it tries to use ram. gingerbreadisjust too ram hungry.19:06
brobostigonsorry, that is a assay.:(19:06
HazRPGfujisan: I just thought, that could partially the reason you got banned, because I recall microsoft chat does spam the channel a bit due to the avatars n what not19:06
fujisanHazRPG it's very creative though19:06
bigcalmbrobostigon: sucky :(19:07
brobostigonbigcalm: very, yes, :(19:07
HazRPGfujisan: I agree, I use to use it for years until microsoft pulled it out of their support life-cycle19:07
fujisani just find it interesting19:07
brobostigonbigcalm: so this is the cloest and newest to a properlyfunctioning system.19:07
MartijnVdSOn another channel I'm on (not Ubuntu-related :)) we used to annoy Comic Chat users19:07
HazRPGfujisan: you've sort of inspired me to make a pidgin plugin that does something similar :)19:08
MartijnVdSHazRPG: O M G NOOO19:08
brobostigonbigcalm: and i can get hsdpa here, however the signal is pretty patchy and bad. :(19:09
HazRPGMartijnVdS: hehe, aww why not! I use to love comic chat!19:09
shaunoI've lived in a fair few channels where uttering the phrase 'Appears as' provoked the bots into banning you.  comic chat is funny, the 'out of band' messages it subjects everyone else to, can get a bit tiresome19:09
MartijnVdSHazRPG: make it an empathy/gwibber theme :)19:09
HazRPGMartijnVdS: obviously I'd devise a way so that it didn't spam the main channel...19:09
gordonjcpshauno: "appears as"?19:09
bigcalmbrobostigon: just stay close to a wifi signal - sit in mcdonald's all day19:10
shaunogordonjcp: the first utterance of the comic chat client.  "# Appears as <name>"19:10
MartijnVdSgordonjcp: Comic chat says "#APPEARS AS <comic character name>"19:10
brobostigonbigcalm: mc-donalds, i dont think so.19:10
gordonjcpah, okay19:10
popeybrobostigon: I often use the free wifi in mcdonalds19:11
MartijnVdSpopey: because you eat there every day, right?19:12
popeynot quite19:12
brobostigonpopey: i would prefer a whetherspoons myself. :919:12
MartijnVdSevery other day then :P19:12
popeyunderstandable brobostigon :)19:12
bigcalmThe coffee isn't that bad. Handy when you're in the depths of Wales with a weak phone signal19:14
popeythats exactly where I used to use it most19:14
bigcalmSpeaking of which, we need to make a trip to Aberystwyth soon. Not that far away and lovely coast19:14
brobostigonbigcalm: a ger together with the ubuntu-cymru guys?19:15
bigcalmbrobostigon: newp, just want to show Hayley where I used to go for holidays as a child19:16
bigcalmMy grandparents used to have a cottage near Borth19:16
brobostigonbigcalm: ah, sounds interesting, :)19:16
popeythat one!19:17
bigcalmAnd the country side is stunning. Really want to just drive there now :)19:17
bigcalmpopey: I can't believe you went looking for the location of the mcdonald's you used to frequent!19:18
popeyyes, you can :)19:18
MartijnVdSJava people? (Azelphur ?) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL2D3qzHtqY19:18
bigcalmAye, that's true19:18
bigcalmOh, 3 days booked in the Premier Inn...19:19
AzelphurMartijnVdS: haha, I'm trying to be a java person19:19
Azelphurso far I've done hello world.19:19
bigcalmThis is as far as I got with Java http://lazygnome.net/projects/WebClock2/19:20
MartijnVdS"Missing plugin"19:20
MartijnVdSapparently, I don't have java installed :)19:21
brobostigonthe most i have done with java, that i understood is with google app inventor, and that isnt even java,19:21
MartijnVdSI've done a little bit of Java in school, 12 years ago :)19:22
HazRPGI made a client/server app that serves an access database19:22
MartijnVdSand a few "Hello world" Android bits19:22
MartijnVdSoh and some "Hello world" JavaME bits back in the early Smart Phone Age19:22
HazRPGback in college19:22
AzelphurI'm currently trying to do some contrib to yaaic though :P19:22
HazRPGAzelphur: if I've still got the zip with all my tutors lectures and examples for making a client/server, I'll link you up to them if you like19:22
Azelphurthat sounds cool19:23
bigcalmTime to visit Hayley's brother for a bit before we go home.19:23
bigcalmLaters peeps19:23
HazRPGits got both the labs and also explanation files, along with some source code files when it said "try using ... file" and change to do /this/ and /that/, etc19:24
jacobwhead first java19:24
brobostigonbye bigcalm19:24
bigcalmToodles :)19:24
AzelphurHazRPG: cool :D19:24
HazRPGAzelphur: found it!19:25
HazRPGAzelphur: it doesn't have lessons 1-6, but I don't think he ever shared those... and they were just about basic hello world stuff19:26
HazRPG1-5* even19:26
jacobwah, android irc, i knew i'd heard of yaaic19:26
HazRPGAzelphur: ah no wait, they were powerpoint files... and those are in its own folder :) - seems I packaged this collection quite well :)19:26
AzelphurHazRPG: :D19:27
ubuntuuk-planet[Jono Bacon] Congratulations on GNOME 3! - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/04/06/congratulations-on-gnome-3/19:27
HazRPGAzelphur: sent you an IM with the link :)19:27
=== mgdm_ is now known as mgdm
HazRPGAzelphur: bare in mind this is the files he would hand out and he did explain it more in the lectures... however the files do explain things pretty well regardless19:28
HazRPGhe used some funny names for his variables, so just keep that in mind19:29
HazRPG(e.g. a socket was just labelled "ss", etc - but they sort of make sense)19:29
fujisananybody going to watch the CL game?19:29
HazRPGfujisan: CL?19:29
fujisan chelsea vs manutd19:30
jacobwnope :p19:30
HazRPGMartijnVdS: the sound on that video for JVM is pretty scratchy and hurts my ears >_<19:45
HazRPGanyone out there that has dual-screens using the nvidia drivers on a linux distro confirm if youtube works properly now?19:46
AzelphurHazRPG: full screen?19:46
HazRPGI suppose I could just disable my hack to get it to work and see if it works :/19:46
HazRPGAzelphur: yeah19:46
AzelphurNo, on natty19:46
AzelphurI havn't rebooted for the most recent update though19:46
MartijnVdSnvidia + properly? hahaha19:46
HazRPGMartijnVdS: :P19:47
HazRPGAzelphur: you should lookup ali1234's fullscreen hack :)19:47
HazRPGAzelphur: works amazingly!19:47
AzelphurHazRPG: yea I need to do that sometime19:48
HazRPGonly issue is that it still puts the fullscreen-ed window onto the first monitor (or monitor 0)19:48
HazRPGbut that's due to flash more than anything else19:48
ali1234i was thinking about that19:49
ali1234it actually opens on the first window but with the size of which ever window flashplugin started on19:49
HazRPGso if it was started on a smaller screen, it would still stretch incorrectly?19:50
* MartijnVdS cleans up his ~ in preparation of a reinstall19:57
brobostigoncan i shke my fist atthem, either, it seems the people commenting havent tried it, and or are regurgitating otherpeoples thoughts, and nothing original. worst is saying, someone there comparing it to windows, and saying, window's gui hasnt changed, hmm, i dont believe it.20:23
jacobwits no different to what people said about kde4, even people who've pontificated about change for years don't like change20:25
brobostigonjacobw: i think you are right, it meaningless and i will ignore it for most, unless it is original constructive discussion.20:26
directhexit's @1990slinuxuser!20:27
brobostigondirecthex: i didnt truly use linux then.20:27
ali1234thing is we had the same thing with gnome 220:28
directhexbrobostigon, twitter.com/1990slinuxuser20:28
ali1234everyone hated it20:28
jacobwbrobostigon: i think 'thom holwerda' is right, "we're living in fortunate times .. with two wildly divergent open source desktops."20:28
ali1234what happened was slowly all the things everyone hated got reverted20:28
ali1234and gnome developers acted like they never did anything wrong20:28
brobostigonjacobw: he cannot comment, ashe hanst tried it, yes. and open source is choice here, and i am up for constructive disicussion, but not stupis regurgitation.20:29
brobostigonali1234: i hope that doesnt happen, in truth.20:30
ali1234i've tried it; it sucks20:30
ali1234therefore your argument is invalid20:30
brobostigonali1234: gnome2 or gnome3?20:30
ali1234both actually20:30
ali1234gnome 2 sucked when it was new20:30
ali1234gnome 3 sucks too20:31
ali1234give it about 2 years and all the bad stuff will get removed20:31
ali1234the maximize button will be back20:31
brobostigonali1234: gnome3 improves in alot of ways on gnome2, like its workspace management, like it notifications.20:31
ali1234the things that work will be kept, the things that are dumb will go20:32
brobostigonali1234: and why have minimise, if you have nothing to minimise too?20:32
ali1234that's how it works20:32
ali1234they will relent on that one too20:32
ali1234either they'll add a task bar to gnome-shell, or everyone will just stay with gnome classicv20:32
brobostigonali1234: why, you only need to minimise windows, if you have something to minimise too.20:32
ali1234either way the buttons will be back20:33
brobostigonno point,20:33
brobostigonali1234: you didnt answer my question.20:33
ali1234that's like saying you only need roads if you have cars, therefore you don't need roads, because we've taken away your cars20:33
ali1234it doesn't make any sense in the real world20:33
brobostigonali1234: my only need for minimise, was to access the desktop, i had no other purpose for it, there were other ways to manage progs and their windows.20:34
ali1234so what?20:34
ali1234you are one person20:34
ali1234and you think beos is the best thing evar20:35
brobostigonali1234: it seems the gnome design team, and alot of other people agree with me.20:35
brobostigonand my logic,20:35
ali1234funny i don't see them anywhere20:35
=== jenkins-5 is now known as jenkins
ali1234nobody agreed with the gnome design team when 2 was released, and nobody agrees with them now20:35
gorddesign means nothing until its tested, we changed a bunch of stuff in unity once we got it in the hands of testers20:36
brobostigonali1234: in its basic OS design yes, like a microkernel, and servers ontop of it, and its FS, etc.20:36
MartijnVdSali1234: this time they're really wrong though20:36
ali1234history will repeat itself20:36
brobostigongord: which they have done over time with gnome-shell aswell, :)20:36
ali1234the principle behind gnome 3, unity, kde 4 etc seems to be "throw a bunch of **** at the wall and see what sticks"20:36
ali1234which is fair enough20:36
* MartijnVdS turns on the fan :P20:37
gordbrobostigon, no - i mean real testers20:37
gordkicking something out of the door will get you far more testers than you ever wanted/needed ;)20:37
MartijnVdSgord: yeah noticed that today :)20:37
brobostigongord: alot of people test gnome-shell in real life, i have for the last year, more orless,20:37
gordbrobostigon, no matter how many do, its not enough and its people invested in the idea20:37
MartijnVdSgord: (we switched a customer-facing bit of code from FreeBSD to Debian, in a new version..)20:38
brobostigongord: you maybe right, alot of peopleworked on its design, who probebly deserve more appreication.20:39
gordbrobostigon, thats not what i'm saying, what i'm saying is that people invested in the idea testing doesn't help. unity was designed in much the same way - then we put it infront of real people - who had never seen unity before and it was tough for them. that sucked, we went back after that and took a second look at lots of our design20:40
gordbasically, until you kick something out the door, get people who don't even know what it it using it, its not a tested design20:40
ali1234the exact same thing has happened in windows over the years20:40
ali1234so many new features touted as the greatest innovation ever, only to be quietly turned off in service packs :)20:41
brobostigongord: they ans we, who use gnome-shell/gnome3 will be doing the same thing. no doubt,20:41
brobostigongord: and i will be taking a page out of popey's book, and putting gnome3 in  few weeks, infront of my mum.20:42
ali1234i can't really think of any examples where apple has gone back on new features20:46
MartijnVdSali1234: Everything pre-OSX:)20:46
ali1234but since then...20:46
MartijnVdSwindow rollup20:46
brobostigonwell using unix, is a huge improvement really.20:46
gordi have a feeling they will go back on some of the new iphonification they are doing to osx20:46
gordin time20:46
ali1234i mean like changing something, claiming the new way is better, then going back because everyone hated it20:47
gordcourse it'll be announced as a new feature ;)20:47
MartijnVdSali1234: striped grey backgrounds20:47
brobostigonno idea, never use mac-osx, i have used its underlying bsd, darwin before.20:47
ali1234like gnome 2 and windows 95 did with spatial browsing20:48
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: it's a mach kernel with some bsd userland20:48
gordi thought gnome2 stuck with spatial browsing?20:48
ali1234or clippy/the search dog is another example20:48
brobostigonMartijnVdS: yes, based in part on nextstep. i agree. hence partly darwin.20:48
gordit was an ubuntu distropatch that disabled it20:48
ali1234gord: they might have, but all distros turn it off because it sucks20:48
brobostigonspatial browsing?20:49
ali1234and every windows after win95 has it off by default20:49
gordbrobostigon, basically folder windows always opening in new windows20:49
ali1234also you can only open each folder once20:50
brobostigongord: i hated that, yes.20:50
ali1234everyone except gnome designers hated it20:50
ali1234just like gnome-shell :)20:51
jacobwdesigners suck :p20:51
brobostigonali1234: gnome3 uses nautilus, its all in one window,20:51
ali1234quite often they seem extremely out of touch with real users20:51
ali1234but if 50% of what they come up with is good i can live with that20:51
brobostigonali1234: nautilus does not open new windows, for each file manager change.20:52
ali1234it doesn't any more20:52
ali1234it did when gnome 2 was first released20:52
ali1234then they quietly went back on it20:52
brobostigonali1234: it didnt in 10.10's nautilus either.20:52
ali1234of course it didn't, gnome 2 is like 10 years old20:52
brobostigonali1234: hmmm,20:52
ali1234i don't know what happens if you install gnome 2 from upstream source20:53
ali1234maybe it still uses spatial by default, idk... but the fact is nobody actually uses gnome 2 vanilla except gnome developers20:53
gordbrobostigon, ubuntu has always turned spacial mode off20:54
gordits not the gnome default20:54
shaunospatial was awkward.  it made logical sense, but went against what people are used to.  sometimes the right thing to do, isn't the right thing to do.20:54
nperryHappy Gnome3 Day <320:54
brobostigongord: oh, i see. interesting, i didnt know.20:55
brobostigonnperry: yay, :), yes.20:55
ali1234did they release it today or something?20:55
brobostigonali1234: gnome3 fully, yes.20:55
ali1234that's probably why nobody looked at my bug report from yesterday yet then20:56
ali1234too busy arguing about minimize button on web forums20:56
brobostigonali1234: is it to do with gnome3 somehow?20:56
brobostigonali1234: link me up, please.20:56
shaunoI miss garnome.  once upon a time, I'd be building gnome by now :)20:56
ali1234brobostigon: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64686720:57
lubotu3Gnome bug 646867 in daemon "Memory leak on gvfsd "listMounts" dbus call" [Normal,Unconfirmed]20:57
brobostigonali1234: i will give it a read.20:57
ali1234there's no need unless you're planning on writing a patch, it's a cut and dried bug :)20:58
brobostigonvalgrind ?20:58
ali1234yes, valgrind20:58
MartijnVdShmm valgrind20:58
ali1234aw no factoid20:59
MartijnVdSgood thing I don't use non-compiled languages anymore :)20:59
brobostigon!info valgrind20:59
lubotu3valgrind (source: valgrind): A memory debugger and profiler. In component main, is optional. Version 1:3.6.0~svn20100724-0ubuntu2 (maverick), package size 20290 kB, installed size 51336 kB (Only available for i386 amd64 powerpc lpia armel)20:59
brobostigon!info valgrind natty20:59
lubotu3valgrind (source: valgrind): A memory debugger and profiler. In component main, is optional. Version 1:3.6.1-0ubuntu1 (natty), package size 27162 kB, installed size 72216 kB (Only available for i386 amd64 powerpc ppc64 lpia armel)20:59
brobostigonah, ok. i see.20:59
* nperry gets my whistle out for gnome320:59
ali1234download the testcase and run it if you want to see the bug21:00
nperryOk, gnome3 is here.21:00
ali1234you'll hit OOM in about 5 minutes21:00
brobostigonali1234: i might yes,21:00
brobostigonali1234: maybe not then, no.21:00
ali1234i need to report the other bug on gnome-system-monitor too21:00
brobostigonnperry: you a gnome3 user?21:00
phonex01hello guys21:01
phonex01how are you there ?21:01
nperrybrobostigon: I am..21:01
brobostigongood evening phonex0121:01
brobostigonnperry: :)21:01
jacobwquite a few of us are here21:01
phonex01it is amazing weather here ,,,,, good for hacking hahahha21:01
nperrybrobostigon: Just installing the gnome3 ppa stack.. Been an avid jhbuilder for the last 6 months.21:01
brobostigonnperry: we were justdiscussing some of the design an philosopihcal decisions behind it.21:01
brobostigonnperry: i am using the gnome3-teams ppa in natty.21:02
phonex01i have three WIFI access point around and im thinking ....21:02
* nperry hopes for buttons not to come up.21:02
brobostigonnperry: we discussed that.21:02
nperrybrobostigon: just my two cents... I don't use max or min.... EVER!21:02
nperrySo it fits well with me.21:03
jacobwmost people do though :|21:03
brobostigonnperry: i only used minimise, to get to dsktop myself, so it had very littleppoint in being there, once a traditional desktop no longer existed.21:03
nperryjacobw: rm -rf *; git clone nperry21:04
ali1234i use minimize any time i want to see the window behind the window i'm using21:04
MartijnVdSnperry: you're saying some git is cloning you?21:04
brobostigonali1234: alt-tab ?21:04
ali1234no, i never use alt-tab21:04
brobostigonali1234: you should do, it is very useful, :)21:05
ali1234no, it sucks21:05
nperryalt+tab means taking your hand from my trackpad21:05
nperryas normaly you move into a window to move curose not type.21:05
ali1234alt tab fails quite hard on a dual head setup21:05
ali1234you never know what you're going to get when you press it21:05
brobostigonnperry: i try and use my mouse as little as possible, and alt-tab works vert well to achieve that,21:06
ali1234with minimize i know i will always get the window behind the current window21:06
ali1234with alt tab it can be a window on the other monitor21:06
ali1234pretty much all these fancy new desktops fail horrible on dual head21:06
ali1234another thing i do very often is minimize or maximize a window that doesn't have focus21:06
brobostigonali1234: i have never use multi-monitor, so i had no idea, i couldnt speak for.21:06
ali1234which doesn't really work when the buttons are hidden on all but the focussed window21:07
ali1234see "how do i minimize firefox?" image i posted the other day - there is actually bug on launchpad about this now21:07
ali1234since some windows you *can't* focus for one reason or another21:08
ali1234then you can never minimize them21:08
ali1234then there's windows where clicking on them would perform some action you don't want21:08
brobostigoni would simply alt-tab and or by some method choose the window i want, irrelivant as to minimise, what if all window are minimised and only desktop is visible.21:09
ali1234well yeah that's another problem with alt tab21:09
ali1234at any given time probably 75% of my windows are minimized21:09
ali1234alt-tab is going to show them all21:09
ali1234or i can just work on a subset using minimize/maximize/restore21:10
brobostigonits not an issue, alt-tabworks very well, and  for my use, it works perfectly.21:10
brobostigonalt-tab in gnome-shell show the apps, and then the window within those apps, works very well.21:10
brobostigongood window management.21:10
ali1234it's the same problem that unity's start menu has21:11
ali1234instead of allowing you to work in a subset, it just slaps everything into one huge list because "it's simpler"21:11
brobostigonunity doesnt have a start menu.21:11
ali1234yes it does21:11
ali1234that's out of date21:12
ali1234it still exists though21:12
brobostigonali1234: can we be specifc as to what we mean by a start menu, as in a windows like one?21:13
ali1234start menu = menu you click on to start programs21:13
ali1234just because it's crap doesn't mean it's not a start menu :)21:13
ali1234even the KDE4 one is less annoying21:13
brobostigonali1234: i click on nothing to start progs, i hit super button, start typing, and hit enter, i havent clicked on anything.21:14
ali1234super button... as in the windows key? as in the key that shows the start menu on windows?21:14
ali1234when i want to run programs by typing the name of them, i use a shell21:14
ali1234but yeah... that search box is a part of the start menu21:15
ali1234i actually do the same thing, because hunting through the menus is so awful21:16
ali1234but i don't like it at all21:16
ali1234when it searches it's really slow21:16
ali1234it's like the firefox awesome bar21:16
brobostigonthere is an applist seperate though, always there,21:16
ali1234type 3 chars, wait 30 seconds while the computer grinds...21:16
brobostigonali1234: gnome-shells is quite quick, even on my eeepc,21:16
brobostigonali1234: almost immediate,21:17
ali1234i bet it won't be quick when whatever database backend it uses gets full of cruft21:18
HazRPGwow, seems I missed a lot by watching a google talk on youtube T_T21:19
brobostigonali1234: it has had about 2 months of going now, and is same speed, if not quicker.21:19
nperrybrobostigon: You said you was using the gnome3 ppa?21:19
HazRPGgnome3 + unity discussions are relevant to my interests! I hate both!21:19
HazRPGsimply put21:19
ali1234mee too21:19
brobostigonnperry: gnome3-teams ppa, yes.21:20
HazRPGmulti-screens sort of kills the whole "fancy desktop" situation21:20
ali1234actually i don't hate gnome3, just gnome-shell21:20
HazRPGbefore I had 2 screens, I use to be a frequent alt+tabber21:20
ali1234HazRPG: yeah we already went over that21:20
HazRPGbut now that I have 2 screens... it sort of doesn't work21:20
HazRPGali1234: yeah I know, I'm just assuring brobostigon that your not the only one that feels that way21:20
brobostigonon my next machine, i will get multi-monitor, and try, and see.21:20
ali1234despite the way it seems, i'm not unique :)21:21
willy1977you don't work in the same way with dual head...21:21
willy1977hence the fancy dan stuff get's in the way ;)21:21
ali1234i just like to argue against the majority viewpoint21:21
brobostigonwilly1977: as i said,i will try it out, and see.21:21
HazRPGbrobostigon: trust me alt+tabbing will become annoying when you realise that if your looking at one screen and you alt+tab, and suddenly something shows up on your other screen...21:21
ali1234if everyone was bashing gnome-shell i'd probably say it was great21:21
brobostigonHazRPG: hmm, i cant really imagine that, unless i try it, i think.21:22
willy1977brobostigon: indeed it's worth a look makes you think different I run it at work as I have the space don't have the space here at home ;)21:22
jacobwali1234 is contrary :p21:22
willy1977or ali1234: fights for the underdog?21:23
brobostigonwilly1977: i could make the space, no easy, but i could, if i had enough money to,21:23
HazRPGbrobostigon: using multiple screens can make life SOOOOO much easier, however some designs for desktop management can get in the way of it though21:23
brobostigonHazRPG: i would love to see more than one window at once, i can imagine it, it would help hugely.21:24
ali1234such as the design where you're only allowed a launcher on the first screen21:24
willy1977ah money always the issue...21:24
HazRPGbrobostigon: I see if I can describe it. Lets say you have four applications, 2 on each screen. However lets say for example you opened them at alternate times, so app 1 and 3 are on the left screen and app 2 and 4 are on the right screen (this can get even more annoying when you have as many apps open as I do).21:24
willy1977HazRPG: definitely more productive with it - but the simpler desktops work better with it IMO21:25
HazRPGwilly1977: agreed21:25
brobostigonHazRPG: ok, yes, i think i understand,21:25
* brobostigon goes for a rest, in search of beer in the fridge,21:26
shaunothe main catch isn't the order they were opened in.  it's that alt-tab tries to re-arrange the tab order constantly so repeatedly alt-tapping flips between the app in front, and the app you last used behind it.21:26
shaunoit's an assumption that isn't always true for dualhead21:26
ali1234shauno: bingo21:26
shaunoand when it's true, it's luck.  luck-based task switching sucks.21:27
HazRPGbrobostigon: so when you alt+tab, your not alt+tabbing to the app directly behind the one your looking at, your alt+tabbing to the one on the other screen... and the more you have open, the worse this is. In fact even holding ALT and cycling through tabs can sometimes not help at all, because your not sure which screen its going to pop up on.21:27
ali1234this is why i have a start enu and a task bar on both screens21:27
brobostigonHazRPG: hmmm, that isnt logical behaviour,21:28
ali1234right, and that's why none of us uses alt-tab afaict21:29
HazRPGbrobostigon: yeah, I guess... but this is how it works once you've got two screens.21:29
* brobostigon returns, beer in hand,21:29
HazRPGand why it gets frustrating21:29
brobostigonHazRPG: it makes no sense, i would want fine choice and to what is open, how, and where, and not leave it down to chance,21:30
HazRPGali1234: I have 3 panels total, don't see the point in two task bars. Plus 2 menu's are pointless when I have most used apps on the two top panels21:30
ali1234two task bars so that the task bar only shows apps from that screen21:31
ali1234and two menus because i often run fullscreen apps on both displays21:31
willy1977I think win 7 deals with this (depending on how you bring up the alt-tab list) by giving a set of numbered applications when you hover over one it highlights it up on the screen it's running on... hmmm?21:31
ali1234gaming on primary, watching videos on secondary21:31
HazRPGali1234: ahhh I didn't realise task bars did that!21:31
HazRPGI might have to add another task bar :)21:32
nperrybrobostigon: You not getting a deps fail?21:32
nperry  gnome-icon-theme-symbolic: Depends: gnome-icon-theme (< 2.92) but 3.0.0-0ubuntu1~build1 is installed.21:32
ali1234yeah, it's good21:32
brobostigoni would probeblt be much happier if app lists, and task bars, werent there, and a better way of prog/window/app management was invented.21:32
brobostigonnperry: nope,21:32
nperrymaking gnome-shell uninstallable21:32
willy1977nperry: I think it got broke a few days ago I've not been able to get it on yet... :s21:32
brobostigonnperry: i didnt have that here, i woulkd get holdof the ppa guys.21:32
shaunoI just use expose for task switching.  adapts to dualhead nicely :)21:33
willy1977my understanding was they were aware of it, but yeah as brobostigon says get in touch again it can't hurt.21:33
ali1234i feel like the owner of two carefully organized desks, and then someone has come in and taken everything from both desks and piled it into a huge pile on one desk, and then said "i'm helping!" and then run off21:33
nperrybrobostigon: I take it that'd be #ubuntu-desktop ?21:33
willy1977shauno: expose?21:33
* willy1977 wanders off to google...21:33
brobostigonnperry: no idea, i havent had to, not a clue. sorry.21:34
shaunowilly1977: the mac thing that swishes all the windows away into thumbnailed views21:34
willy1977oh yeah...21:34
shaunoit was a pain until multitouch made it a twitch reaction21:34
willy1977that's kind of what win 7 can do...21:35
brobostigonnperry: maybe file a bug on their launchpad page.21:35
HazRPGali1234: oh wow, this is amazing! Thanks for the tip :D21:35
ali1234i don't like expose... all my windows look the same when they are tiny21:35
shaunoaltho I found binding it to one of the junk keys right of the spacebar, made it very nifty on a laptop trackpad21:35
ali1234HazRPG: i no rite?21:36
HazRPGali1234: ^^21:36
HazRPGali1234: you've saved me so much heart ache!21:36
willy1977you can of course run expose on win 7 too :D21:36
HazRPGI always thought it just cloned everything over the two desktops21:37
shaunomost likely.  I'm fairly sure I saw some semblance of it in ubuntu at one stage too.21:37
shaunoah.  compiz fusion called it 'scale' as a window management option21:38
HazRPGyeah I thought compiz did that :)21:39
shaunoI tend to only use alt-tab if I have something fullscreened, because I can never really trust what they'll do with the multitouch otherwise21:40
brobostigonHazRPG: i think i would be happiest, with a workbench like gui, over multi-monitor, maybe, or a multi-monitor aware of haiku's app-server.21:41
HazRPGshauno: I use alt+tab for the same reason, except not because of touch-screen - mainly because I don't know how its going to handle the ESC key21:42
HazRPGmulti-touch* rather21:42
HazRPGsome apps with ESC out of full-screen and back to normal... some will just close21:42
HazRPGjust like some apps accept CTRL+W as a close method21:43
shaunoI think it's mostly because if I have something fullscreen, it's usually vmware or a photo app.  both of which will capture the multitouch & try to do something 'useful' with it21:43
HazRPGhowever some use both ESC and CTRL+W, some use neither - and that really confuses me21:43
shaunoI have one app that'll only obey alt-f4.  that's insanely irritating.21:44
HazRPGoh yeah, that's another annoying one :/21:44
* brobostigon goes to enjoy his beer, with some music, 21:44
HazRPGI keep forgetting alt+f4 is an actual thing21:44
HazRPGuntil some app throws it in as a monkey wrench to annoy me21:45
shaunothat's it.  I'm on a mac.  it's not an actual thing :p21:45
shaunofn+alt+f4 does not feature in my muscle-memory21:45
brobostigonmy big issue, is when windows force themselves on me, i have to get rid if it or them, to continue, i hate that.21:46
shaunoI don't like apps that are allowed to bring themselves to focus.  that strikes me a real issue.  I could be typing passwords, credit card numbers, I want my keyboard focus where I put it.21:47
directhex i agree21:47
directhexi hate it when i start my machine, start all my apps, start typping in irc and EVERY new app to start steals focus21:47
directhexit's a window manager issue, fwiw21:47
shaunoor more likely, I could be finishing a sentence of drivel on irc, smack enter and agree to some dialog that was only on the screen for a split second21:48
brobostigonshauno: i want the choice, no a window blocking me, however, also sticking if its assential.21:48
brobostigonspot on.21:48
shaunoit's it's genuinely important, it can come to front.  I need to see it.  it doesn't need to steal the keyboard too.  that raises the chances I'll smack enter and _not_ see it.21:48
HazRPGshauno: heh I hate it when dialogues do that too21:49
HazRPGdialogues should be banned as a thing21:49
* willy1977 hates the dialog box thingy too... not sure they can be banned mind ;)21:49
HazRPGwhich is why I like chrome's take on it, by having them as tabs, or as a window inside a tab21:49
shaunothat one's not just me being grumpy either.  you see $averageuser putting three-letter sentences into their chat client of choice, enter's every 4th key :)21:50
HazRPGwilly1977: when I say banned, I mean they should be nicely integrated into the app somewhere as like a frame that pops up inside it and greys the rest out to show you that the app needs your interaction21:50
brobostigonthis issue was one that was tried to be solved, first on the amiga, and then in classic macos, and then in BeOS and haiku.21:51
directhexshauno, it's the WM's fault. compiz allows it to happen, by default. not every WM has this behaviour21:51
shaunothere's ways to solve it that just need common sense, not a complete rethink.  not stealing focus would be nice.  if you can't help it (or the WM decides for you), don't have a default option, so it's not dismissed unintentionally21:52
brobostigonBeOS's app server, wasnt very good at it, as it could be overriden, however haiku's is much better, and it needs to be explicit and definate to take focus.21:53
brobostigonnothing steals focus, expliccitly, unless, abolsutly made to.21:53
HazRPGshauno: I think by default keyboard shouldn't have focus taken away, and it should also not be allowed to be changed by an app - but an overall config that the user can define21:53
shaunothis is one place I agree with gnome (and apple).  making things like that a user-defined policy is just admitting you couldn't get it right21:54
* brobostigon shuts up now,21:54
ali1234bacon-message-connection.c - uh, ok then21:55
shaunoif you get it right, no-one notices it was ever a problem :)21:55
HazRPGe.g. keyboard always stays on focus of where it was left previous, and if you want to allow it to take focus away... this should be configurable manually, but forced by the way the application is coded21:55
willy1977messing with irssi for the first time so couldn't respond as I had the nickserv window "stuck" :)21:55
HazRPGwilly1977: CTRL+n :)21:56
HazRPGwilly1977: or CTRL+p21:56
HazRPGor even CTRL+<number>21:56
brobostigonalt + left-right arrow.21:56
HazRPGbut I'm guessin you figured that21:56
HazRPGbrobostigon: ooo, yeah that works too :)21:56
brobostigonHazRPG: :)21:56
willy1977nope did it by faffin with /window show x off meh... your shortcuts are better :p21:57
HazRPGslightly off current-topic... shauno: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w35UVc_MPDc (chiptune collection)21:57
shaunoI gripe about this because itunes is doing it constantly to me atm, as I import thousands of tracks21:58
brobostigonHazRPG: amazing, thank you, you responded to something i said. i was talking bout the same as everyone else there for a while, and i was ignored.21:58
shaunoi just have no opinion on how beos/haiku handle it because I've never tried them21:58
* brobostigon hugs HazRPG 21:59
HazRPGbrobostigon: nah, I think everyone was just getting into their own grump over things :P21:59
brobostigonshauno: where as, that the longest system, i have experience with.21:59
HazRPGI tend to go off on one (rant), and then get back to people once I've said my piece21:59
brobostigonHazRPG: good point. yes.21:59
brobostigonHazRPG: sorry,21:59
HazRPGbrobostigon: I agree, amiga and beos did try and fix it22:00
shaunoI don't recall the amiga ever throwing a modal at me from another app, but I rarely multitask in it22:00
HazRPGits just something people can't get use to though, when windows don't pop up people start to worry I think.22:00
brobostigonHazRPG: and more success than most, because of simple app-server/wm design.22:00
shaunoI think some things do need to come to front and poke you in the eye.  I think it's also a very short list22:01
shaunoit's a shame the notification bubbles on ubuntu are so .. wrong.  else they'd be a good option for everything else22:01
HazRPGshauno: heh, I'll leave my rant about that to myself, but I agree ubuntu's notifications are well and truly broken... and they don't seem to have any intention on fixing that :/22:02
brobostigonshauno: this is why i like the notifications in gnome-shell, because they dont block what you are doing, and or steal focus, unike in gnome2 sometimes.22:02
shaunoif it's important enough to shove it in your face, it's important enough to follow-up on.  so why can't you click them to reach context?22:02
willy1977it's a cool discussion this with some great points - may have to download the archive because I'm off to bed... night all.22:02
ali1234because most of the things indicator is used for are not important at all22:03
HazRPGbrobostigon: I think he was more referring to the fact that you can't click on notifications to see what it said, nor see a history about what was said with a simple click22:03
ali1234like social rubbish22:03
KrimZonhas anyone here tried gnome 3 much?22:03
ali1234it's only there because everyone has to have a "social desktop" these days22:03
HazRPG(in  fact I don't think it actually logs notifications! - prove me wrong though if there's something I'm missing)22:03
brobostigonHazRPG: which you can in gnome-shell,22:04
ali1234you can in kde as well22:04
brobostigonKrimZon: alot. yes.22:04
ali1234kde notifications are a lot more powerful of course22:04
ali1234like everything in kde22:04
KrimZonhow do I change the wireless password after having entered it wrong?22:04
ali1234but of course they look terrible, also like everything in kde22:04
shaunoI don't believe the indicator ones are logged, no.  I had a lot of fun with that seeing if you could recover messages that were left from gnome-screensaver22:04
brobostigonKrimZon: change that in network manager.22:04
brobostigonKrimZon: via its applet.22:05
shaunoI do use notifications for things like 'so and so has come online' tho.  they're useful.  if I click on them, it opens an IM session with so & so.22:05
shaunoif I get "fred has mentioned you in #ubuntu-uk", and I click on it, it brings irc to front.  etc.22:05
KrimZonbrobostigon: I don't see any way to22:05
HazRPGali1234: that's one thing that puts me off kde... its terrible design choices (or rather visual design choices) - the extra power it gives is amazing however22:06
shaunoif a message has no context worth clicking thru to, it's most likely not a message that's worth seeing.22:06
brobostigonKrimZon: right click on applet, and edit conenctions.22:06
ali1234HazRPG: a lot of it isn't choices but abstention from choices22:06
HazRPGif both the KDE group and Gnome group were to bump heads together, I'm sure it would be a fantastic piece of work (if they picked the best of both worlds)22:06
ali1234HazRPG: the rest is just pure bugs22:06
KrimZonoh, I get the same as left click when right clicking the applet22:06
shaunoHazRPG: in the real world, when kde & gnome bump heads, someone loses teeth :)22:07
jacobwkde > gnome22:07
shaunoor worse .. they create freedesktop.org22:07
ali1234HazRPG: for example, KDE lets you change almost any font anywhere in the UI, but if you do, then text won't align properly on widgets, because their theming engine is broken22:07
brobostigonKrimZon: yesterdays updates, should put that behaviour back to normal, form the gnome3-teams ppa.22:07
ali1234so KDE only looks "good" with default fonts22:07
ali1234and only in the default sizes too22:08
brobostigonKrimZon: or just use the network editor in gnome-control-panel.22:08
HazRPGshauno: I agree, that was one thing I liked in windows too... with notifications - however most notifications in windows were application specific, the ones built into windows were ... well if you'd seen one, it usually meant some bad had happened22:08
jacobwits far more functional though, plasma can adapt itself or be adapted to most preferences22:08
* jacobw is a kde fan22:09
ali1234jacobw: really? how do i change the colour of my taskbar to match the windows then?22:09
KrimZonthere's a thing in the control panel to edit networks, but the options button is greyed out22:09
brobostigonKrimZon: it should have an unlock option.22:10
shaunoI can't stand notifications in windows.  they only ever tell me I've plugged something in (repeatedly, excitedly, as windows slowly figures out what just happened).  or they're reminding me there's icons on my desktop.22:10
ali1234jacobw: my standard challenge to all who say that KDE can be configured to do whatever you want: make KDE4 look identical to ubuntu desktop with human theme22:10
brobostigonKrimZon: i wouldnt try to run gnome-control-panel as root.22:10
KrimZonit's a livecd22:11
* jacobw quietly mutters "why would you want to.."22:11
brobostigonKrimZon: fedora?22:11
brobostigonKrimZon: no idea, sorry.22:11
ali1234jacobw: to prove that what KDE developers claim is actually true22:11
ali1234jacobw: here is a screenshot you can work from: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/clean_install.png22:12
shaunoI can't really say much about kde, I haven't used it since 2.x22:12
dwatkinswow, the beep got removed from Ubuntu and won't re-enable, that22:12
dwatkinsthat's kinda interesting22:12
HazRPGshauno: I hated the "OUT OF MEMORY" notifications, because usually when that popped up... windows spazzed out no end >_<22:12
shaunowell, that's shooting the messenger.  that's the rare case of windows telling you something you should probably know (if it's reached the point it can't handle it itself)22:13
ali1234jacobw: here's another with some windows: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/Screenshot-7.png22:13
shaunoin general tho, it shouldnt' be telling me that I can use the device I just plugged in.  that should be expected, and it should tell me if there's a good reason I can't22:14
HazRPGshauno: yeah I agree... however point out the obvious is daft, it would be much more efficient to notify when /before/ I ran out22:15
shaunonot sure about that.  before it runs out, it should be dealing with it.  memory management is not a user's task.22:15
dwatkinsI have enough trouble finding my keys some days.22:16
shaunoif/when it can't get that right, then it's polite to offer an apology before it falls over and dies.22:16
shaunothe victorians would have said "little girls should be seen and not heard".  100 years later, I apply the same to my computer :)22:18
brobostigonshauno: i like that analogy.22:19
dwatkinsIsn't that what piping to /dev/null is for? ;)22:19
shaunoI've no doubt in another 100 years, computers will slap me for saying it too22:19
brobostigondwatkins: or not stealing focus, yes.22:19
* jacobw is imagining being slapped by a computer22:20
shaunoit'll happen, one day.22:20
shaunoprobably when you mention it's getting a bit sluggish and could use an upgrade.22:21
brobostigonshauno: and you try and optimise it,22:21
shaunoI'm a mac owner.  I don't optimize.  I buy something prettier :D22:25
brobostigonit seems sometimes, my computer, has PD like me, and has weird xtraordinery moods.22:25
brobostigonshauno: lol.22:25
shaunoseriously, I'm almost ashamed of how my last laptop ended up22:25
shaunoit used to take 14 screws to open it up.  2 of them are still there.22:26
brobostigonshauno: my last laptop, my thinkpad, is lieing under my desk, still working, last time i fired it up.22:26
shaunomy laptop will actually disassemble itself in a good crosswind22:26
KrimZonI was just thinking of reviving my old latitude cs 400 today22:27
shaunooh it still works.  it's my minecraft server atm :)22:27
brobostigonshauno: :)22:27
shaunoit's just a bit less portable, and a bit more ugly than it was 4 years ago22:27
shaunoI broke too many wee plastic tabs converting it to dvorak, so certain keys fly off if you type too fast.  or type a sentence that contains too many R's22:28
shaunoit's going to find a second life tho.  mostly because I'd be ashamed to take money off someone for it.22:29
shaunobetween that, a bunch of buttons I bought off dealextreme, and an oversized dell crt that's so it's beige, I think the only thing between me and a mame cabinet is laziness22:30
HazRPGfor a second there I thought you meant you were going to play "second life" on it xD22:30
shauno*so old it's beige22:30
shaunoHazRPG: no.  I refuse to sink any lower than Wow22:30
HazRPGshauno: heh22:31
HazRPGnow I feel like a dunce22:31
HazRPGI played that, mainly in sandbox areas making random items - if anything I should have just learned to use blender better and would have had the same experience22:31
brobostigonmy dad just didnt get, when in joke, i called milton keynes a suburb of bletchley park.22:32
brobostigonwhen the joke*22:32
HazRPGto me second life was just IRC where you could make 3D objects and show off without having to take screenshots22:32
directhexsecond life is evil.22:33
HazRPGdoesn't milton keynes have a concrete cow?22:33
shaunoI tried SL.  It seemed like IRC, where everyone has fur, and ungentlemanly intentions towards you.22:33
brobostigonwas that not funny,?22:33
directhexSL is a horse sex simulator.22:33
KrimZonI heard it has one pub22:33
* HazRPG recalls passing a concrete cow in my cow when I was in that general area22:33
shaunodirecthex: that's the one22:33
HazRPGshauno: heh where did you hang out?22:34
HazRPGshauno: I barely ever saw anyone to talk to, but I mainly hung out in sandboxes like I said22:34
HazRPGevery once in a while I would wander to the competition area of the sandbox, and see what people were creating within 30 minutes (timed competition)22:35
brobostigonok, thank you for pointing it out, i am not funny and cannot make a joke. it dont bother me anymore. i can try none-the-less.22:36
shaunoHazRPG: I didn't :)22:36
HazRPGalso script islands, to talk with other scripters to see how things were made22:36
shaunoI did SL roman style.  I came, I saw, I ran away and left it to the germans.22:36
shaunoveni, vidi, visigoths!22:37
HazRPGbrobostigon: I didn't get it, but that's because I don't really know milton keynes nor know what bletchley park is22:37
HazRPGhard to laugh at something I can't relate to22:37
directhexHazRPG, bletchley park is where a gay, some poles, and some secretaries won world war 222:38
HazRPGif you said something like "It was heart warm... I'm a man, you're a man... we're both men!"22:38
shaunoall I know about milton keynes is that OU is there.22:38
shaunodirecthex: that sounds like a helluva night out22:38
brobostigonHazRPG: milton keynes exanded around bletchley park inthe housing boom, and colosus, alan turing's machine, was designed ansd built in bletchley.22:38
HazRPGheh, ok I think I get it now then :P22:39
directhexHazRPG, the enigma code, germany's secret cipher, was cracked there22:39
HazRPGshauno: xD22:39
brobostigonthe predeccessor to ghcq was founded there.22:39
shaunoshort version: the nerd's version of the battle of britain22:40
dwatkinsI've been to Bletchley, I look forward to going back again for another tour.22:40
brobostigondwatkins: i want to make a peper tape for  collosus,22:40
brobostigondwatkins: and learn how to.22:41
dwatkinsbrobostigon: nice, they seem to have rebuilt it from scratch from a few photographs and people's memories22:41
brobostigondwatkins: yes, i haveseen it, a few times.22:41
brobostigondwatkins: it is truly amazing,22:44
dwatkinsbrobostigon: yeah, especially considering the available technology at the time22:45
brobostigondwatkins: and what they have available now to rebuild it, aswell.22:45
dwatkinsbrobostigon: yeah, it's unbelievable they don't have a better budget.22:46
ali1234jacobw: time to play spot the difference: http://imagebin.org/14693022:46
ali1234it took me about two days to set all that up22:47
jacobwali1234: no custom menu bar :o22:47
brobostigondwatkins: yes, very true.22:47
ali1234and several bugs were exposed at the same time22:47
dwatkinsali1234: nice font, too22:47
ali1234like eg if i set the font to 11 pt instead of 10.8 pt, there is no visible difference between bold and normal22:47
jacobwdevelopers must love you :D22:47
ali1234also text is not correctly vertical aligned22:47
ali1234it's too near the bottom on window titles and also the task bar22:47
HazRPGali1234: urgh, that looks like kde >_<22:48
ali1234HazRPG: yeah, all the bad KDE-isms are still present22:48
ali1234also notice the lol-huge font on the clock22:48
ali1234you can't change that22:48
ali1234and you can't make the panel match the windows22:48
HazRPGali1234: that was the first thing I noticed22:48
ali1234also the window docorations are not round enough22:48
ali1234but this was as close as i could get22:49
ali1234there are no plasma themes that don't have ugly gradients on them22:49
ali1234this was the best one i could find22:49
ali1234so the moral of the story, you can spend days configuring KDE, unfortunately it doesn't have an option to turn off the bugs, so it will always suck22:51
ali1234gnome otoh is broken by design :)22:51
jacobwdoes any software have an option to turn off the bugs :p22:52
ali1234i dunno, but i've been complaining about misaligned fonts in KDE for about 10 years and it never gets any better22:52
dwatkinsGnome and KDE are both very complex, you can't expect them to work perfectly all the time.22:53
dwatkinsali1234: have you logged bugs about it?22:53
shaunoI never expected kde to work :/  it always seemed to be ugly by default, and provided a vast array of options to make it worse.  (again, I haven't seen it since kde2 ..)22:53
ali1234i wouldn't even know where to start22:53
ali1234i just stopped using KDE22:53
dwatkinsI agree it can be very annoying when things don't work right.22:54
ali1234the general uglyness of KDE is why i switched to gnome22:54
ali1234they might make bad decisions, but it's better than no decisions at all22:54
dwatkinsI switch to tinymc as a window border straight away, I don't like how big the borders in Gnome are22:54
dwatkinssorry 'ThinMC'22:55
jacobwi think worrying about uglyness misses the point of whether something is fit for purpose22:55
ali1234they are both fit for purpose22:55
dwatkinsonly by providing feedback to the developers can we improve them22:56
ali1234oh i provided plenty of feedback :)22:56
jacobwwhat do you think of unity ali123422:56
dwatkinswhereabouts, ali1234?22:56
* jacobw realises that might be 'big question'22:56
ali1234unity would be nice on a tablet, if it wasn't for the way it hides things until you mouse over them, which is impossible on a tablet. worthless for a desktop system22:57
ali1234i don't need massive buttons that fill 1/4 of the screen when i'm using a keyboard + mouse22:58
ali1234on a touchscreen it works22:58
ali1234i particularly dislike the new startmenu though, especially the "recommended apps" part22:58
jacobwi don't think the redundacy with 'internet apps' 'media apps' 'other apps'22:59
ali1234overall i rate unity: not as good as hildon22:59
dwatkinsI like fluxbox.22:59
ali1234yes, hildon22:59
dwatkinsI still can't believe my little Eee 901 does wobbly windows.23:00
ali1234jacobw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBmfqQrsFg23:00
dwatkinsIt's clearly time for the desktop cube...23:01
jacobwis that maemo?23:01
ali1234yeah hildon was developed for maemo23:02
ali1234maemo was always a tablet OS though, not a phone OS23:02
directhexyay, hildon23:02
shaunohas anyone been watching the hms ark royal series on discovery?23:03
ali1234and hildon is still the best working tablet UX... probably the *only* working one currently23:03
ali1234so i don't see where unity fits in... it *looks* like a tablet UX with huge buttons and simplified app switching, yet it has things like menu hiding that absolutely won't work on a tablet23:04
ali1234otoh on a desktop system unity looks comically huge23:04
ali1234and the cut down methods just annoy23:04
directhexali1234, i think webos will fit perfectly on a tablet23:04
ali1234ah webos... never tried it23:05
ali1234but i was talking about open source things23:05
jacobwwell, i'm agnostic about unity, but i can see myself being able install unity on a novice users pc and say "just click on the application you want from the bar on the left"23:05
ali1234people aren't as dumb as you think23:06
ali1234if they can handle windows 7 then you bet they can handle classic gnome too23:06
ali1234if they claim they can't, then they are going to "fail" at using any OS except the one they actually wanted23:06
HazRPGhow can they have a film called "source code" and not be able geeks?23:06
directhexHazRPG, i immediately assume that film will be terrible. the reviews say otherwise23:07
HazRPGits about some dude that "mind jacks" (to use the terms a recent game calls it) into a past life of someone else...23:08
ali1234it has nothing to do with source code... it's an homage to quantum leap.... meant to be quite good23:08
ali1234even has cameo by scott bakula23:09
HazRPGseems like just another phone booth, except their budget stretches to being able to get a hold of a moving train :/23:09
dwatkinsHazRPG: I wondered what that film was about, thanks for saving me the time to look into its 'plot'23:11
HazRPGdwatkins: haven't seen it yet, other than trailers, but that's the gist I get... its about bombs, a guy being able to "mind jack" into some dude on a train... and he has 8 mins for each "mind jack" to stop the bomb...23:12
HazRPGit just seems like it's a film that's going to loop that way23:13
HazRPGits ground hog day all over again, except with bombs xD23:13
dwatkinsYeah, reminds me of the awful remake of Wargames which almost made me cry.23:13
jacobwi quickly get fustrated with impossible uses of tech etc in films23:13
dwatkinsAgreed, jacobw.23:13
ali1234it's fine if it's just a plot device23:14
HazRPGI thought die hard did a good job23:14
ali1234which this blatantly is23:14
dwatkinsI find it difficult to watch any sci-fi with transporters, sometimes.23:14
HazRPGloved how linux was plastered all over that :D23:14
ali1234dwatkins: the fly?23:14
dwatkinsali1234: yeah, although the transporter in star trek was to save money initially ;)23:14
dwatkinsali1234: that's not so bad23:14
ali1234(the jeff goldblum remake)23:14
ali1234remakes aren't always bad23:14
HazRPGtwo words... "help meeeeeeeeee"23:15
ali1234the sequels to it though... that's another story23:15
shaunoI think the good ones are rarities :/23:15
ali1234of course23:15
HazRPGI recall the fly concepts showed up in teenage mutant ninja turtles (if someone corrects me with hero... I'll flip!)23:16
shaunothat said.  and I'll get tarred and feathered for this one.  I really liked the scifi channel's version of dune.  better than the lynch one.23:16
ali1234shauno: they both had their good and bad points23:16
HazRPG*picks up mag he bought earlier today*23:16
HazRPG"Broadband Meltdown"23:17
ali1234but neither is as good as the books23:17
HazRPGthat's the headline, I wonder what this is going to say (feels like he's missed something, reason for buying this too)23:17
shaunoI think the scifi channel tried harder to stay faithful23:17
ali1234but the characters in the lynch version are way more memorable23:17
ali1234everyone in the scifi version looks the same23:18
shaunodifficult to emulate the books when so much of it's internal.  but they made a pretty solid effort.  especially considering it's the scifi channel.23:18
shaunoabout the last good thing I remember them doing before they .. whatever they're doing.23:18
ali1234http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVqXE9ZY5wk vs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrG4g6yNLJU23:18
shaunothat just makes the scifi one look cheap :)23:21
ali1234to be fair they both look pretty crappy by today's standards23:22
shaunolynch undoubtably did holywood better.  but I think scifi did the story better23:22
ali1234yes totally23:23
ali1234the main problem i had with scifi is everyone looks like a generic 20-something actor23:23
ali1234i got really confused cos i couldn't remember who was who23:24
hamitronbroadband meltdown? :(23:25
hamitrondamn this warm weather23:25
hamitronI wish windows 7 had a virtual desktop option like wine does :/23:32
hamitronthen could run old games alongside other stuff :)23:33
awilkins/me is still on Vista23:34
brobostigonhamitron: cant you? i thought MS put alot of affort into backward compatibility.23:34
hamitronI can't see an option...23:34
brobostigonhamitron: i wouldnt know, i havent used windows after 2000, and then longhorn.23:35
awilkinsWhat about VirtualBox? It allegedly has 3D suppot23:35
awilkinsMight be good enough for older games23:36
hamitronpffffffffft to vm "3d" is all I have to say ;/23:36
hamitrononly have 1 retail license also, and that is my host OS23:36
brobostigonnos da everyone , sleep well.23:37
awilkinsI only have Windows for games now...23:38
awilkinsIf only I could become enlightened and adopt purer pursuits.23:38
jacobwminecraft is a purer pursuit :p23:39
hamitronyeh, that is my me also awilkins23:39
awilkinsI have the box set of "The Art of Computer Programming" coming soon. That should keep me busy.23:39
hamitronI am reading up on the skills required for making games....23:40
hamitronbut I need entertainment still23:40
jacobwmaths and maths and more maths as far as i can tell :p23:40
hamitronI like maths23:40
awilkinsTrig, matrices23:40
hamitronstill torn between C and C++23:41
hamitronif to bother using SDL23:41
jacobwi do like maths, but i don't know as much as i should23:41
awilkinsI think games tend to be C++ these days, but I know nothing.23:41
jacobwmy knowledge is gleaned from reading about how andrew wiles solved fermats last theorum :|23:42
hamitronmost are C++, yeh23:42
hamitronbut I am familiar with C23:42
directhexc is smelly23:42
directhexlike bums23:42
awilkinsAnd my C is very rusty (never really progressed past fooling with Amiga compilers)23:42
directhexbums that are smelly23:42
hamitronhaha dh23:42
directhexnot clean bums, obviously23:42
hamitronI could start coding something now, if I was to use C23:43
hamitronbut I am thinking it would be better in the long run to learn C++ first23:43
* jacobw makes a joke about introspection23:43
directhexc, like c++, has a specific use case. if you write gui code in c or c++, you're doing it wrong.23:43
hamitronthen use fun projects to practice C++23:43
awilkinsYeah, no wonder wht all those game guys do is write a Lua engine and then write their game logic in Lua23:44
directhexor python, or c#23:45
directhexor something home-made23:45
hamitronor tcl23:45
directhexbut yes, it's a good example. graphics backend in c(++), anything user-centric in a higher-level language the designers can write in23:45
awilkinsDid anything come of that game where you could send units back to the past?23:46
directhexhamitron, i've never seen a game with tcl in it23:46
awilkinsAnd they could fight alongside themselves?23:46
directhexawilkins, i've only seen that in puzzle games23:46
hamitrondirecthex: I think one of my books uses it for the scripting part23:46
awilkinsthis was an RTS23:46
awilkinsForgotten it's name.23:47
hamitronit does :D23:47
ali1234wasn't that red alert 2?23:47
hamitron"Programming Linux Games" by John R. Hall23:47
awilkinsThat was just an effect that made a unit immune to damage for a while - this is a full on proper time-travel RTS with timelines and butterfly effect23:48
jacobwtime travelling RTS :o23:49
hamitronI recall something about that23:49
jacobwordinary RTS fry my brain enough23:49
ali1234so is there any good rts game on linux?23:50
ali1234maybe a mod for spring with sensible graphics?23:51
hamitronsomething 210023:51
awilkinsThere's a port of Earth 210023:51
ali1234played that one23:51
jacobwrunning linux is an rts game in itself :p23:51
directhexthe new oil rig thing?23:51
ali1234it's called warzone 210023:51
hamitronyeh warzone, it worth playing?23:52
ali1234it's too complicated23:52
andylockranhey guys23:52
hamitronI heard similar from others23:52
jacobwi think i remember playing warzone 2100 on the ps1?23:52
andylockranI've installed an entropykey and have ekeyd listening on external ip port 88823:52
ali1234yeah it was commercial, went open source23:52
jacobwcool :)23:52
ali1234i like RTS games where i can implicitly understand the units23:53
andylockranI want to connect an egd daemon to it - but when I do (egd-linux) it doesn't seem to populate the kernel entropy pool in teh same was that ekeyd does when set to kernel mode23:53
hamitronI really want Enemy Nations to be ported now the source is open, but not sure about the license :/23:53
directhexandylockran, several simtec people in #debian-uk23:53
ali1234so basically have it set in the real world23:53
jacobwits quite exciting actually that this game i used to play is now open source23:54
ali1234it certainly runs well23:54
directhexjacobw, quake 3?23:54
ali1234i just don't like it as a game23:54
jacobwthat's another one i guess23:55
andylockrandirecthex: thanks23:55
hamitronI've heard warzone 2100 is overly complicated, so if you play online you get whooped by people who know it too well :/23:55
jacobwi was talking about this warzone 2100 though23:55
andylockrandirecthex: which irc server?23:55
andylockranping merriam_23:55
awilkinsThis achron game is selling pre order betas - and supports Linux (amd64) - ooooo.23:57
awilkinsMay have discovered what to do with my remaining leave....23:58
hamitrononly 64 bit?23:59

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