[00:01] <OO> Not too sure what happened there, those pics drove my computer to a grinding halt :/
[00:03] <OO> Could you say again atall?
[00:07] <shauno> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23042/screen.jpg   seems to be pretty relevant :/
[00:11] <ali1234> hmm looks familiar
[00:12] <ali1234> istr a maverick bug that did that, it wasn't actually a problem with sata though, but something else completely random
[00:12] <ali1234> the ata errors were none fatal and just happened to be the last thing on the screen
[00:12] <ali1234> could be unrelated though
[00:12] <shauno> that's all dmesg has for that device
[00:13] <ali1234> hmm ok you grepped
[00:13] <ali1234> so what's on tail of dmesg?
[00:14] <shauno> and grep sg0 just has a "sd 0:0:0:0: Attached SCSI generic sg0 type 0"
[00:14] <ali1234> can you see it in /dev/ or mount it or anything like that?
[00:15] <shauno> It's in dev, but mount tells me it's not a block device.
[00:15] <shauno> Booting again now, will find out what dmesg has for me
[00:17] <shauno> Assuming sg0 is ata2 as there's no sdb,c, etc. Just sda which is mountable
[00:18] <ali1234> sounds bad
[00:19] <Guest> Why thanks ubuntu
[00:19] <Guest> You have 206 updates available!
[00:25] <hamitron> better than having 205 and an extra "problem" left
[00:25] <hamitron> ;)
[00:25] <shauno> I don't see anything else odd in dmesg; http://oneil.me.uk/dmesg.txt in it's entirety
[00:27] <shauno> it didn't add any other log messages until I found a usb key to stick in it 1-2 minutes later
[00:29] <shauno> just seems to spend about 15 seconds waiting for ata2 to make sense, then gives up and dumps me into initramfs
[00:30] <shauno> (this is beta1, daily did the same)
[00:41] <shauno> well, I should drop it for tonight.  gotta be up in 4 hours.  added to the forum thread to see if anyone else running the same is seeing this.
[00:41] <shauno> join date nov 2004, and that's my first post.  forums aren't my bag, baby
[00:58] <hamitron> haha
[02:11] <ali1234> cool i earned the tumbleweed achievement on askubuntu :)
[07:24] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:24] <danfish> hello!
[07:26] <danfish> over the past 3 days I've upgraded (not fresh install \o/) natty on my laptop, revo box and zoneminder server, and touching wood, four leafed shamrocks etc, everything works as expected :)
[07:28] <danfish> my experience with Unity can be summed up as a 30min rollercoaster - 10mins 'how does this thing work', 10mins 'this is cr*p and is going out of the window, to a final 10mins of 'this is actually an interesting way of working and is quite good'
[07:38] <danfish> anywho, enjoy the weather all :) Off to work time :(
[08:00] <MooDoo> hello
[08:04] <shauno> mornin
[08:07] <diplo> Morning
[08:12] <smittix> Mornin
[08:13] <smittix> can anyone find this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/749660
[08:13] <smittix> Weird, Submitted a bug last night and got a reply saying it was a duplicate with the above.
[08:13] <smittix> and it doesnt exist
[08:45] <DJones> G'Day
[08:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> I've not used Natty yet - is this a reasonably accurate precis so far? http://journalxtra.com/2011/04/ubuntu-11-04-what-have-they-done/
[08:58] <MartijnVdS> imho, yes
[08:59] <Tommeh> Yes, but you can just switch to Ubuntu Classic
[08:59] <Tommeh> And then it looks/works mostly like 10.10 :)
[08:59] <MartijnVdS> Except for the #@( global menu
[08:59] <Tommeh> Ah, he says this at the bottom.
[09:00] <Tommeh> ... And you can't re-arrange items on the task switcher
[09:00] <Tommeh> -10 points for not allowing my compulsive behaviour :(
[09:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> Jeez - that sounds like a pile of poo.
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: Hence my switch to xubuntu
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> Tommeh: But the design team is god, and knows everything better than you!
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> Tommeh: they're professionals! trust them!
[09:04] <Tommeh> Heh
[09:04] <Tommeh> To be fair to them, IMO, they've made some risky changes in the past and it's turned out for the better.
[09:04] <Tommeh> Some people hate change .. Me, I'm on the fence about Unity. If I could have an easier way to switch workspaces I'd be using it.
[09:04] <MartijnVdS> The titlebar buttons you mean?
[09:04] <Tommeh> Things like libnotify
[09:05] <Tommeh> I remember it was 'risky' to not allow them to be closed/removed, etc.
[09:06] <DJones> When I ran it on a liveusb at the weekend, I was quite impressed, it looked quite clean & worked otb, the only problem I had was the installer crashing out & failing to install grub
[09:06] <danfish> TheOpenSourcerer: I quite liked Unity. I even filed a bug to that effect :P
[09:06] <Tommeh> It'll be like marmite for a while :)
[09:07] <Tommeh> Even if it's not polished-up in this release, they'll be working on making it suit.
[09:10] <DJones> Whats the saying, "Time is a great healer", as people get used to it and the experience improves, I'm sure people will get used to it
[09:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> Tommeh: "an easier way to switch workspaces..." What is the problem here then?
[09:12] <oimon> ali1234: ping
[09:12] <wintellect> Mornin campers
[09:12] <Tommeh> TheOpenSourcerer: I have to open the thing on the left to change workspaces
[09:13] <Tommeh> And even then you have to wait for it to zoom out, select a workspace, zoom in
[09:13] <MartijnVdS> wintellect: Campers? This isn't an FPS game is it? :P
[09:13] <Tommeh> Very annoying
[09:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Doesn't CTL+ALT+Arrow work?
[09:13] <Tommeh> I don't want to use my keyboard all the time!
[09:13] <wintellect> MartijnVdS: :P
[09:13] <Tommeh> Second person to have said that.
[09:14] <Tommeh> Sometimes I really don't have both hands on the keyboard...
[09:14] <Tommeh> So instead of one click to switch workspaces, it's three -- with waiting for transitions in between.
[09:15] <Tommeh> Makes it very annoying to multi-task across multiple workspaces.
[09:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> I'm always running 3 or 4 desktops...
[09:15] <Tommeh> Good for you :)
[09:15] <DJones> Tommeh: That won't be problem for men, my wife always says that mem can't do two things at once
[09:15] <DJones> s/mem/men
[09:16]  * TheOpenSourcerer goes and shuts every window that isn't the current focus of my attention to please DJones ' wife
[09:16] <DJones> Heh
[09:16] <hoover> good mornin
[09:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hang on, haven't finished yet.
[09:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> :P
[09:17] <DJones> Although I think her idea of multi-tasking is, sitting on the couch, watching tv & playing on facebook
[09:17]  * DJones checks to make sure she hasn't joined the channel to see what I talk about
[09:18] <MooDoo> popey: just speaking to markdude who sends his regards :)
[09:19] <popey> morning all
[09:19] <popey> MooDoo: in real life?
[09:19] <kazade> good morning everyone! How are you all today?
[09:19] <MooDoo> popey: no, fedora-ambassadors IRc
[09:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> last night I created my daily zsync script for natty. Am now going to test the desktop in VBox, see if it is bad as it sounds.
[09:20] <popey> ah
[09:20] <MooDoo> popey: he mentioned chickens :)
[09:20] <popey> has he left Ubuntu to join Fedora then?
[09:21] <MooDoo> popey: no idea, i've always seen him in that channel
[09:21] <oimon> Tommeh: i joine the convo late, are you speaking of gnome shell, unity, or both?
[09:23] <Tommeh> With respect to what?
[09:23] <Tommeh> A lack of simple workspace switching?
[09:24] <oimon> yep
[09:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> The installer is nice. Like the way it does stuff in the background whilst you fill out the other info.
[09:25] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:27] <popey> Tommeh: enable the thing that lets you switch workspace by nudging the mouse against the edge of the screen?
[09:27] <Tommeh> That's one idea, but in the past I've tried using similar things with compiz and it's just driven me mad due to hitting it by accident :(
[09:27] <Tommeh> However I'd like a simple workspace switcher, as I have now
[09:27] <Tommeh> Click, switch, click, switch.
[09:29] <bigcalm> I'm a secret lemonade drinker
[09:29] <bigcalm> Don't know why you made me think of that
[09:29]  * TheOpenSourcerer attempts to not say "R-Whites" 
[09:29] <bigcalm> Too late :D
[09:31] <oimon> Tommeh: i suggest you raise a feature request for right click on workspace switcher to show a quicklist of all desktops , then the process is right click workspace switcher, choose desktop number
[09:31] <popey> that would work nicely
[09:31]  * popey pokes gord 
[09:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> This is because there is no bottom panel any more and no workspace display in the bottom right?
[09:32] <popey> yes
[09:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> Argh
[09:33] <popey> i never used that switcher
[09:33] <popey> too hard to hit
[09:33] <bigcalm> I used to enjoy holding alt and scrolling the scroll wheel to change desktops
[09:33] <popey> yeah, i use that
[09:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> I tend to use CTL+ALT+>
[09:33] <bigcalm> Doesn't work in Windows :D
[09:33] <popey> i usually use CTRL+ALT+arrows tbh though
[09:33] <popey> because thats not far from where my hands rest anyway
[09:34] <bigcalm> My left hand naturally rests on wasd :(
[09:34]  * oimon looks down and sees his left hand on sdf
[09:34]  * TheOpenSourcerer doesn't even ponder where bigcalm 's right would be resting ;-)
[09:34] <oimon> returns his pinky to the a key
[09:35] <bigcalm> TheOpenSourcerer: it would squeek if it could
[09:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[09:37] <gord> oimon, bring it up on ayatana list or file a feature request bug, can't do it for this cycle sorry
[09:48] <HazRPG> \o
[09:48] <MartijnVdS> \o hazman
[09:49] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: \o/
[09:50] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: how's it going?
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: We've just moved a big project to Debian at work :)
[09:50] <oimon> \o/
[09:50] <HazRPG> seems my body has gone back in sync with normal times again... although I can see it going out of wack again in a few days time
[09:50] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: \o/ score!
[09:53] <bigcalm> I hope it wasn't from Ubuntu to Debian
[09:54] <HazRPG> I've just downloaded natty alt + desktop in both i386 and amd64 \o/
[09:54] <HazRPG> I'll keep those seeding for a week or so :)
[09:58] <HazRPG> I think I should learn the ol' bzr I think... upload my code recipe to it :)
[09:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> HazRPG: I use a zsync script to update all 6 daily Natty isos overnight
[09:59] <HazRPG> TheOpenSourcerer: ooo, how does that work exactly?
[09:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[10:00] <HazRPG> does that just download the new bits?
[10:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> hang on I'll paste the script
[10:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/590121/
[10:01] <HazRPG> heh typical... the day I want to use LaunchPad and its down for maintenance :P
[10:01] <HazRPG> TheOpenSourcerer: nice :)
[10:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> Just run that in the background overnight the first time to get all the isos then when it runs later it just gets the differences.
[10:04] <HazRPG> nice :)
[10:04] <HazRPG> much thanks
[10:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hmm, Natty fails to boot now I've installed the Guest Editions. Hangs at "Checking battery state..."
[10:04] <HazRPG> bug report \o/
[10:05] <bigcalm> Distro change!
[10:06] <HazRPG> xD
[10:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> Does holding down the shift key work in VBox to get to the grub menu usually? Isn't working for me right now
[10:06] <HazRPG> wow, I've managed to seed a ratio of 0.80 of Wikipedia Feb 2011! >_<
[10:07] <bigcalm> HazRPG: a lot of data?
[10:07] <HazRPG> TheOpenSourcerer: erm, make sure the screen has grabbed your mouse by clicking on it first before you hold shift... otherwise it won't work I think
[10:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> To answer my own question - YES. But you have to be quick.
[10:08] <HazRPG> bigcalm: Well it's the whole of wikipedia up until feb 2011! (about 6.5GB tarballed)
[10:08] <bigcalm> That all? My goodness
[10:09] <HazRPG> just the english wiki, without images
[10:09] <bigcalm> Ah, ok
[10:09] <bigcalm> Text compresses well
[10:09] <HazRPG> it extracts out of the tarball as 11.4GB
[10:09] <HazRPG> although that's a WikiTaxi file... so even that could be compressed too
[10:13] <bigcalm> Does it include discussions and revisions?
[10:13] <HazRPG> bigcalm: ah, here we go... it uncompresses to 27GB
[10:13] <HazRPG> no, just current revisions
[10:14] <HazRPG> all revisions, all pages is a ~31GB 7z file (uncompresses to over 5TB)
[10:14] <HazRPG> or a bz2 ~280GB file
[10:15] <HazRPG> bigcalm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
[10:15] <bigcalm> Funky
[10:17] <HazRPG> wow the arabic one isn't as big :S
[10:19] <HazRPG> TheOpenSourcerer: would zsync work with .bz2 files :P?
[10:20] <HazRPG> ah maybe not cos they don't have a zsync file
[10:20] <HazRPG> (reading through the pastebin)
[10:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hmm The daily Natty Desktop 64bit won't start in VBox for me. Was OK until I installed the Guest Editions to get 3D. Now bored, will go and do proper work instead.
[10:26] <HazRPG> heh :P
[10:26] <popey> hah
[10:28] <HazRPG> just updated my LP to have my wiki on it now :)
[10:28] <HazRPG> I wish there was a way to have under languages English first then Arabic... because English is my 1st language, not arabic lol
[10:35] <gord> nice, gmail was saying i had -1 messages ;)
[10:35] <smittix> Wow, I just tried Gnome3
[10:35] <shauno> all the zero-inbox nuts will be jealous :)
[10:37] <jpds> gord: Have you been reading your email before receiving it?
[10:49] <directhex> smittix, and you gazed into the very heart of darkness?
[10:54] <smittix> directhex: Actually I thought it was a pleasant experience.
[10:56] <bigcalm> I'm actually looking forward to seeing a complete and fully opperational deathst^Wunity
[10:58] <bigcalm> Missquoted *sigh*
[10:59] <jonsaint> hi all. just installed ubuntu on a dell inspiron mini. problem i got is that i got the wifi to work with my router but after 5 mins of being connected, it kicked me off and now i cant reconnect again despite having all the right details put in. any advice??
[11:02] <davmor2> morning all
[11:02] <jonsaint> anyone????
[11:02] <X3N> jonsaint: do you know which drivers you are using for wifi? iirc there are two available, you can cehck by going to system > administration > aditional drivers
[11:03] <jonsaint> just looking
[11:04] <jonsaint> X3N, its brought 2 up, broadcom b43 wireless driver and a broadcom sta proprietary wireless driver with the first one active
[11:04] <X3N> try switching to the proprietary driver
[11:05] <X3N> you may need to plug into the wired to download the driver if you don't already have it
[11:05] <jonsaint> yeah doing hat now to see if it works
[11:06] <jonsaint> just doing a restart on it to see what happens
[11:06] <davmor2> jonsaint: the b43 driver sucks you need to use the sta one
[11:07] <jonsaint> just trying that one now
[11:08] <jonsaint> its saying wireless networks disconnected
[11:09] <jonsaint> i even got the windows wireless drivers thing added from the software centre
[11:10] <HazRPG> davmor2: morning dude
[11:10] <davmor2> jonsaint: have you tried connecting to a wireless connection
[11:10] <davmor2> HazRPG: morning
[11:10] <oo> Hey guys & gals i need a suggestion
[11:10] <jonsaint> davmor2, yeah i was connected at first for about 5 mins then it suddenly went off and not been able to connect since
[11:10] <oo> I got this computer a while back and i'm in the process of migrating the old system (windows xp) over to ubuntu
[11:11] <HazRPG> do many people here use jabber.org?
[11:11] <oo> I need to import the pictures, music, videos and docs from xp to ubuntu
[11:11] <oo> Problem is, xp is currently sitting on 70gb and ubuntu has 6gb assigned to it (hd is 76gb), what would you say is the best way to approace this?
[11:12] <oo> At the moment i'm slowly shrking the xp partition and slowly cutting things from xp to ubuntu as i used ntfs-config to get the drive writable in ubuntu
[11:12] <oo> But it's slow as heck
[11:12] <bigcalm> oo: copy data to an external drive. Delete the windows partition. Resize unbuntu partition to fill the gap
[11:13] <oo> Damn i knew i'd have to go digging for an external drive lol
[11:13] <bigcalm> Or CDs/DVDs
[11:13] <oo> The cd drive on this pc is buggered so the only way i could install ubuntu was via wubi
[11:14] <oo> Usb booting isn't supported on this computer ;( (Well, i've never got it to work!)
[11:14] <bigcalm> You are having a fun time with it then :D
[11:14] <oo> Oh i don't mind i'm tempted to use nab my brothers hd lol
[11:15] <davmor2> czajkowski: somebody kidnapped you last night,  I went to insult you and there you were gone I'm glad you're back you muppet :)
[11:15] <oo> I gave it to him in the first place (he's got 150gb free) it's a 250gb drive
[11:15] <oo> My drive is 76gb (sobs)
[11:15] <oo> My video folder alone is 20gb
[11:16] <HazRPG> brb updating pidgin
[11:20] <oimon> HazRPG: just checked my pidgin on lucid and i'm on v2.6.6  - worth upgrading?
[11:20] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: still not using irssi then?
[11:20] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: nope lol
[11:20] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Empathy > * for IM, irssi > * for irc
[11:21] <HazRPG> oimon: erm... considering its 2.7.11 I'd say so :P
[11:21] <HazRPG> oimon: depends what you use it for
[11:21] <oimon> gmail chat and irc
[11:21] <oimon> trawling the changelogs but can't see much in terms of features
[11:22] <oimon> mainly bugfixes
[11:22] <HazRPG> erm... its up to you then, I'd do it for the patches for bugfixes and protocol changes
[11:22] <HazRPG> things like MSN, Yahoo, and I think Jabber have changed a fair bit over that time
[11:23] <HazRPG> I prefer to be up-to-date
[11:23] <HazRPG> but that's me ^^
[11:23]  * oimon adds yet another PPA to his system
[11:23] <shauno> grrrrrrr lp :/
[11:23] <HazRPG> ppa:pidgin-developers/ppa is for pidgin
[11:24] <oimon> i'm there :P
[11:24] <HazRPG> :)
[11:24] <HazRPG> it always shocks me how things like pidgin never get updated on older ubuntu's
[11:24] <shauno> can't figure out for the life of me how to submit a bug against the kernel in launchpad :/
[11:24] <oimon> never felt the need to try empathy when pidgin works
[11:25] <HazRPG> esp. since those are things with protocols that always changes
[11:25] <oimon> 2.6.6 is 14 months old
[11:25] <oimon> LTS without PPA would be lame
[11:25] <HazRPG> shauno: which kernel?
[11:26] <shauno> no idea, I can't boot a live system
[11:26] <shauno> I'm not sure it's meant to be filed against a package when it's the installer's kernel
[11:26] <HazRPG> shauno: try: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
[11:27] <oimon> HazRPG: now on 2.7.11 :P
[11:27] <HazRPG> oimon: \o/
[11:27] <shauno> that tries to send me to bugzilla.kernel.org
[11:27] <oimon> i never think to upgrade stuff when apt-get does things for me
[11:27] <HazRPG> oimon: I do when it involves programs that rely on their own protocols
[11:30] <HazRPG> I recall back in the ol' 9.04 - 9.10 days, pidgin wouldn't connect to any of my accounts (except irc) because the protocols in question had dropped support for older versions
[11:35] <HazRPG> I think pidgin are always a version or two behind things like msn
[11:35] <HazRPG> because MSN protocol is currently v19
[11:35] <HazRPG> and I think pidgin is using MSNP14
[11:35] <HazRPG> (even the most recent)
[11:36] <HazRPG> msn drop support for protocols whenever they release a completely new one, because they want people to use their most greatest (and resource hungry) application
[11:37] <MartijnVdS> \o/ gtalk/xmpp
[11:37] <bigcalm> \o/ telephone
[11:37]  * DJones drops support/consideration for msn
[11:41] <shauno> I think I've managed to move everyone worth talking to to gtalk.  except my parents :/
[11:45] <bigcalm> I'm stuck using skype as that's what most of my clients use
[11:45] <bigcalm> Business needs take priority
[11:46] <gord> i use skype/gtalk/facebook chat (its just jabber) - works out fine
[11:47] <directhex> my company is a major force in xmpp, so...
[11:47] <gord> i still don't know much about xmpp, apart from that it seems quite versatile
[11:48] <HazRPG> shauno: lucky git, I've been trying for years :(
[11:48] <oimon> skype desktop sharing for ubuntu - any good?
[11:49] <HazRPG> oimon: erm I tried it about a year ago and it works quite well
[11:49] <oimon> gets round NAT firewalls?
[11:49] <directhex> we use xmpp desktop sharing at work
[11:49] <HazRPG> probably works better now
[11:49] <HazRPG> directhex: xmpp has desktop sharing :o
[11:49] <HazRPG> ??*
[11:50] <directhex> HazRPG, well, empathy does. not sure what it uses on the back-end
[11:50] <directhex> probably tubes
[11:50] <HazRPG> I think empathy needs a few things added to it before I consider using it myself
[11:50] <HazRPG> I like its clean interface, but it just lacks a few things for irc, etc
[11:53] <HazRPG> woot! I have jabber account now \o/
[11:54]  * popey wonders who 85.82.194.254 is
[11:54] <popey> they seem to be poking ubuntu-uk podcast server every second
[11:54] <gord> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hViWJ35GXr8 shell looks more familiar every time i see videos of it..
[11:54] <oo> Scary times ran outta space :/
[11:55]  * HazRPG goes to whois
[11:55] <HazRPG> popey: denmark?
[11:55] <HazRPG> apparently
[11:55]  * HazRPG goes to update his LP with his jabber
[11:56] <oo> jabber :D
[11:56] <HazRPG> ah, there we go, my LP feels so much more complete now :D
[11:56] <HazRPG> oo: Well I don't want spam in my gmail ;)
[11:56] <HazRPG> already get enough of that as it is :P
[11:57] <oo> eah i agree, i try to keep my gmail as clean as possible
[11:57] <oo> It got overun by some stupid music advertiser recently though :/
[11:57] <popey> "Inbox (2892)"
[11:57] <popey> "You are currently using 3247 MB (42 %) of your 7567 MB."
[11:57] <dogmatic69> o.o
[11:57] <dogmatic69> select all -> delete
[11:58] <popey> s/delete/archive
[11:58] <oo> crikey i think i have about that many messages but i'm using about 1% lol
[11:58] <HazRPG> "Inbox (372)" here
[11:58] <oo> Forever noattachements :(
[11:58] <shauno> my idea of a tidy gmail is simply not missing anyone who should be getting paid
[11:58] <HazRPG> "0.9 GB (3%) of 27.4 GB"
[11:58] <dogmatic69> 'Woohoo! You've read all the important messages in your inbox.'
[11:58] <bigcalm> Wifi is depressing. scp a file from a client to my dev server at 1.9mb/s. scp that same file from the dev server to my laptop at 1.1mb/s :(
[11:59] <dogmatic69> HazRPG: beat 'You are currently using 472 MB (6 %) of your 7569 MB.'
[11:59] <gord> get some N wifi?
[11:59] <oo> Can't wait till flapping my arms around like a chicken composes a new email with the new google motion ;)
[11:59] <HazRPG> Yeah I have 20GB extra because it was cheap, and I needed it for my picasaweb account
[11:59] <dwatkins> I suspect wifi is indeed to blame, but are you sure it's the bottleneck, bigcalm?
[11:59] <oimon> arrgh my funds appeared in my account 1 day late for the ISA deadline :(
[12:00] <dogmatic69> oimon: unlucky
[12:00] <bigcalm> dev server is on wifi (revo under the tv), laptop is also on wifi. Maybe that's the issue
[12:00] <bigcalm> oimon: sue hsbc
[12:00] <oimon> sue everybody :)
[12:00] <shauno> this is why no-one uses 16bit busses anymore
[12:01] <oimon> it's everyone elses fault except for this numpty who left it a bit late ;)
[12:01] <popey> 32 bits of a bus
[12:01] <oo> Urgh hsbc
[12:01] <popey> (c) Compaq / Jon Cleese
[12:01] <bigcalm> Humm, it is. I just plugged the laptop into the router and the same file scp'd at 2.7mb/s
[12:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK - Anyone know WTF this means?...
[12:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> SSLError: [Errno 336265218] _ssl.c:337: error:140B0002:SSL routines:SSL_CTX_use_PrivateKey_file:system lib
[12:02] <bigcalm> I should move the dev server into the office. Can't remember the last time it was actually used with the tv
[12:02] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: sounds like your private key file isn't one
[12:02] <oo> Lol i went in the pub the other day and accidently got out my wrong passport and showed them my passport that expired in 2000, the picture in it was when i was 5 years old, needless to say I got my drink :)
[12:02] <oimon> oo: which country are you in?
[12:02] <HazRPG> hmm, I wonder why LP is hiding my jabber account
[12:03] <dwatkins> What is LP, HazRPG?
[12:03] <oo> United Kingdom
[12:03] <HazRPG> dwatkins: LaunchPad
[12:03] <dwatkins> ahh
[12:03] <oimon> passports to buy beer nowadays :S i wouldn't even know where to find my passport
[12:03] <oo> No i didn't buy beer with my passport
[12:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hmm. MartijnVdS - I just created the things. Thought it was a permissions issue but the server process owner can read both the key and the cert.
[12:04] <oo> lol, they asked my for identity to prove i was over 18
[12:04] <Laney> you carry around an 11-year out of date passport?!
[12:04] <bigcalm> Oh too look young again
[12:05] <oimon> people are always surprised when they find out i am in my mid 30s..they think i am 20 something
[12:05] <oo> Not usually no, but I had it on me then
[12:05] <oo> When i cut my hair i lost a few years
[12:05] <oo> Amazing what long hair can do
[12:05] <DJones> ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH....Channel 5 are paying for 2 new series of big brother
[12:05] <oo> Why didn't that tv show die years ago?
[12:05] <bigcalm> My fiancee, who is 39 next month, hates it when she's asked for ID. Personally I'd take it as a compliment
[12:06] <oo> Yeah same i'm quite irritated by being asked for id
[12:06] <oo> But then again i'm 20, clean shaved not the tallest either ;)
[12:06] <oimon> i used to get ID'd when with a big group of lads..not very confiedence building
[12:06] <oimon> at least i still have my own hair compared to the boys with hair on their chests at 14
[12:07] <oo> Lol :P I've been wanting to grow a small neat beard for ages
[12:07] <bigcalm> Grow a big bushy beard
[12:07] <oimon> i discovered something that they never teach you at school the other day.
[12:07] <oo> But i haven't got enough hair follicles under my chin yet, it would be a patchwork mess
[12:08] <oo> Was anyone else unable to grow a decent beard at 20? It's quite a pain
[12:08] <oo> Wondering when i actually can..
[12:08] <oimon> pick the 3 spoddiest girls from your year/class at school, and check them out at 35. invariably they have become beautiful and successful/talented
[12:08] <popey> o_O
[12:09] <oo> Got to agree oimon, not the case all the time but alot of the time yeah
[12:09] <oo> My friend lost 6 stone, quite a transformation, she was good looking anyway but what a stunner when all that was lost
[12:10] <oimon> meanwhile a lot of the "attractive" girls that all the lads fancied are still single and body clocks ticking
[12:10] <bigcalm> http://cuth.eu/beard <- me at 29
[12:10] <Laney> nice robe
[12:11] <bigcalm> Cheers, M&S finest
[12:11] <oimon> did anyone see the programme on bbc the other day about the guy whose english step-brother had become an islamist extremist?
[12:11] <shauno> no wizzard hat :(
[12:11] <oo> You've got a decent head of hair for 29
[12:11] <oimon> had the most disgusting beard i'd ever seen
[12:12] <oo> One of my friends (19) is in the developing stages of mpb
[12:12] <bigcalm> oo: and 3 years later I still do ;)
[12:12] <oimon> http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/04/article-1301921345820-0B70595C00000578-210079_636x300.jpg
[12:12] <bigcalm> Wow
[12:13] <oo> How long d'ya reckon he's had this beard for? http://swick.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Weird%20Beards/Beard%202_Icy.jpg
[12:14] <oo> One can only dream of a beard like this: http://swick.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Weird%20Beards/Beard%208_Full%20Face.jpg
[12:15] <oimon> i think those men are single.
[12:15]  * oimon goes to clear his firefox cache
[12:15] <Myrtti> I wish I don't inherit my mums high hairline, it's a bit weird looking at times
[12:15] <shauno> that's awesome.  zz-tip tucked into your sunnies
[12:15] <shauno> er, *top
[12:15] <oo> I wish i had a hairline
[12:16] <oo> I can never brish my hair properly because i can't find it!
[12:16] <oimon> when i had long hair, women would stop me and ask for tips on keeping it in good condition :o|
[12:16] <Myrtti> she reminds reverend mother helen mohiam from the dune movie at times
[12:16] <oo> ^ same
[12:16] <shauno> heh, I had that.  never had any idea what to tell them either
[12:17] <oo> To be honest i found using nothing but the bare essentials, no hair masks, yada yada was the best way to keep it in the best condition
[12:17] <Myrtti> not dying it every two months helps
[12:17] <shauno> I think that's the trick.  don't drown it in chemicals and see what it's capable of doing for itself
[12:18] <oo> ^ I tried explaining that to my girlfriend
[12:18] <bigcalm> popey: 1/7 :O
[12:18] <oo> But it's harder said than done
[12:18] <shauno> I tried dying mine once.  it was meant to go black, and came out blue.  nevar again.
[12:18] <Myrtti> or washing every day, every other day is the max... mine goes all hemp if I wash too often
[12:19] <oo> I get greasy hair fast, i have to wash it daily :(
[12:19] <shauno> now I just shave it off whenever I notice it's back.  problem solved :)
[12:20] <oo> Don't suit skinhead
[12:20] <Myrtti> it might get greasy so fast because you wash it so much ;-)
[12:20] <oo> Haven't got the right shape of face
[12:20] <Myrtti> I should have a good inch or two cut
[12:21] <oo> This could be true
[12:21] <directhex> my grandad died with a full head of hair. my dad's in his 60s without any hair loss. things could be worse.
[12:22] <popey> hehe bigcalm
[12:22] <shauno> why do redhat keep trying to sell me training :/  I assume they've seen their own prices
[12:23] <oimon> bigcalm: what's that code you're trading with popey?
[12:23] <Myrtti> I'm happy the chemo hasn't taken mums hair, she has almost as much good condition hair as I do
[12:23] <popey> oimon: see my latest tweet
[12:24] <oimon> 7/7 :)
[12:25] <Myrtti> I don't even know how much first class stamp is here, even less UK... futile
[12:26] <oimon> wonder if popey's tweets should get plumbed straight into the channel for clarity :P
[12:26] <Pendulum> Myrtti: I made an guess (and was correct)
[12:26] <oo> Bought some yesterday, £5:12 for a pack of 12 first class, they rose 5p today
[12:26] <Pendulum> popey: I should have actually outscored you on that, but I hit a wrong button on one of answers so we ended up even ;-)
[12:27] <oimon> man, it sucks how slow servers do their POST checks :(
[12:27] <oimon> 5 mins of waiting around
[12:29] <directhex> POST on desktops is pretty useless, though. "is there a cpu/ good enough. BOOT FASTOR!"
[12:30] <shauno> not sure anyone actually wants to see their bios crawl thru their ram anymore
[12:30] <popey> who reboots?
[12:30] <shauno> it was cute when I had 8Mb.  now, not so much
[12:31] <oimon> i had just removed RAM, so it stuck half way for me to press F1 too :(
[12:31] <oimon> machine hasn't come up so i have to go back in the cold room :(
[12:32] <bigcalm> I fear that today might be a sub day
[12:33]  * bigcalm slithers off to feed himself
[12:36] <oo> What the hell is eating up all the space
[12:36] <oo> I had 4gb free 5 mins ago, now 0bytes free, i'm screwed when i logout
[12:36] <shauno> dark matter
[12:36] <popey> moomins
[12:37] <oimon> HazRPG: do you use docky? my pidgin docklet helper thing doesn't tell me how many unread lines in the conversation now:(
[12:37] <popey> i blame HP printers
[12:37] <oo> 41kb free space
[12:37] <HazRPG> oimon: no I don't
[12:37] <shauno> last I heard you were trying to shuttle data between partitions & externals? is there a chance you got the destination wrong for a copy?
[12:38] <oo> No everything going direct to the external hardrive from the windows xp parition
[12:39]  * popey tickles gmb
[12:39] <oo> Is there a command where i can view whats takin up what and lists it by size?
[12:39] <popey> yes
[12:39] <popey> du -hs /
[12:39] <popey> but easier to run the disk space analyser
[12:39] <popey> which is in the accesories menu
[12:40] <oo> du is running now, i haven't got that disk space analyser
[12:41] <popey> how come?
[12:41] <popey> not ubuntu?
[12:41] <oo> It was originally unitl i removed gnome and put lxde on it
[12:41] <oo> My computer simply can't handle gnome
[12:41] <oo> 512mb ram
[12:42] <popey> oimon: look in /var/log
[12:42] <popey> any big files in there?
[12:42] <popey> du -hs /var/log
[12:42] <oo> sugar
[12:42] <oo> popey is there a way to exclude a directory
[12:43] <popey> from what?
[12:44] <davmor2> popey: did you pull the plug out of the ocean?
[12:45] <dwatkins>        -x, --one-file-system
[12:45] <dwatkins>               skip directories on different file systems
[12:45] <oo> Uh oh, everythings starting to go wrong
[12:45]  * gmb hugs popey
[12:45] <dwatkins> is that what you need, oo?
[12:45] <oo> I didn't get any of the last responses, xchat crashed
[12:46] <oo> And again..
[12:47] <oo> Well i just made 580mb by moving my pictures folder onto the xp paritition, that was the only thing in my linux partition
[12:47] <oo> I really didn't want to do that as i can't afford to lose them
[12:48] <jonsaint> hi all. why do i keep getting package operation failed when i try to install smething from the software centre?
[12:48] <MartijnVdS> Minecrafters: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gjrf4/iama_indie_game_developer_who_made_a_commercially/
[12:49] <gord> oh yeah, graze sent me chocolate
[12:50] <oimon> returning to pidgin v2.6.6 and reminding himself not to fiddle with things that work
[12:50] <HazRPG> oimon: it could just be docky needs updating too
[12:50] <oimon> HazRPG:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/dockmanager/+bug/740168
[12:51] <gord> actually a honeycomb flapjack with chocolate, you are all jealous :P
[12:51] <czajkowski> davmor2: bleugh
[12:51] <oimon> HazRPG: possibly, but that might break something else :P
[12:51] <shauno> MartijnVdS: that's fantastic.  "You seemed to have combined the best parts of LEGO and Heroin together."5
[12:52] <oimon> It seems that the method used in the helper, "PurpleConversationGetData" isn't exported through DBUS by pidgin anymore.
[12:52] <HazRPG> oimon: ah, I wonder why
[12:52] <oimon> i'm surprised that others don't use this - how else can you see the number of unread lines in irc/pidgin?
[12:55] <jonsaint> help! wifi problem
[12:55] <oimon> yay works again. now starting to worry that unity launcher might not show this ...
[12:58] <HazRPG> question about bzr: do I do, bzr whoami "My Name <email@address.domain>", or, bzr whoami "LaunchPad.Name <email@address.domain>" ?
[13:02] <oo> At last: The moving is complete
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: bzr help whoami
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: it haz exampleses!
[13:02] <jonsaint> anyone help for wifi problem??
[13:03] <czajkowski> ivanka: ping
[13:03] <ivanka> czajkowski: you caught me with purse in hand heading for lunch - how may I help you?
[13:04] <czajkowski> ivanka: is the logo wrong I have on my twibbon?
[13:04] <czajkowski> or did you find out who loaded it up ?
[13:05] <ivanka> czajkowski: no it isn't. I didn't find who loaded it. I just thought that if we did find who loaded it we could make it into generic ubuntu rather than 10.04
[13:05] <czajkowski> nods
[13:05] <ivanka> czajkowski: I think we could get better  bigger number with a "we are ubuntu" than with a release specifica
[13:05] <czajkowski> aye I agree
[13:06] <ivanka> czajkowski: would help if it were administered by some person (or people) who can tinker when needed
[13:06] <czajkowski> yeah the thing is anyone can upload any image :)
[13:06] <czajkowski> ivanka: contact twibbbon and ask them can they remove 10.04
[13:06] <ivanka> czajkowski: good idea! will see what I can do
[13:07] <czajkowski> enjoy lunch
[13:07] <ivanka> czajkowski: anyway - this has become my little side project this week rather randomly :-)
[13:07] <ivanka> czajkowski: I will!
[13:07] <jonsaint> anyone??? help!
[13:07] <czajkowski> sorry about that
[13:07] <czajkowski> I blame iaian he pointed out I had the old one
[13:10] <jonsaint> dont anyone know about wifi and drivers?
[13:11] <diplo> jonsaint, just hang around it's lunch time.
[13:11] <diplo> If someone can help they will
[13:11] <jonsaint> cheers
[13:11] <jonsaint> il pop back laters
[13:11] <czajkowski> jonsaint: just ask your question and if people can help they will
[13:12] <diplo> I'd stay connected jonsaint
[13:12] <diplo> People will message you in here
[13:12] <jonsaint> keep getting system error: install archives failed on everything i try
[13:12] <oo> does gparted list the ubuntu partition or just any other partitions and hides ubuntus one
[13:14] <popey> czajkowski: is it really our place to tell twibbon what logos to host?
[13:14] <popey> (I think not)
[13:14] <czajkowski> popey: no I'm not saying that...
[13:15] <popey> 13:06:37 < czajkowski> ivanka: contact twibbbon and ask them can they remove 10.04
[13:15] <czajkowski> popey: just the word
[13:15] <czajkowski> the twibbon is perfect rather than uploading the same image again
[13:15] <czajkowski> it was just an idea
[13:15] <czajkowski> to remove the word after it to make it generic
[13:17] <popey> ah
[13:17] <czajkowski> I perhaps didnt explain myself very well
[13:18] <gord> grr, if letter boxes were bigger then graze could send me more tastier stuff. royal mail ruins everything!
[13:19] <oimon> gord: how about a note on the parcel: leave on doorstep/neighbour/behind plant
[13:27] <oo> Anyone know much about gparted?
[13:27] <popey> oo: wassup?
[13:27] <oo> I installed ubuntu via wubi
[13:28] <oo> I've just nuked xp after copying everything off it so there's 76gb of space i need to give ubuntu
[13:28] <popey> eh
[13:28] <oo> Well, i need to give ubuntu the entire hd space now
[13:28] <popey> you re-installing?
[13:29] <oo> No, i'm on ubuntu now, i've just wiped so i have 76gb of space free
[13:29] <oo> How do i resize my ubuntu partition to make use of that free space
[13:29] <oo> I can't see ubuntu in my partition list
[13:29] <popey> uhm, hang on
[13:30] <popey> so you started with a disk that had windows on it, and installed ubuntu to a file inside that windows partition
[13:30] <popey> yes?
[13:30] <oo> Well, i installed it via wubi
[13:30] <popey> ok
[13:30] <oo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/590215/ < sudo fdisk -l
[13:30] <popey> so that will give you a file inside your windows partition
[13:30] <popey> containing ubuntu
[13:31] <popey> are you currently booted to the ubuntu install that was done with wubi, or a live cd?
[13:31] <HazRPG> I just uploaded my first lot of code to launchpad \o/
[13:31] <oimon> \o/
[13:31] <oo> Currently booted, using it now
[13:31] <popey> HazRPG: are the words "hello" and "world" featured?
[13:31] <popey> oo: and you have done what exactly to windows?
[13:31] <HazRPG> popey: nope, it's a recipe for Calibre ;)
[13:32] <HazRPG> its the first of hopefully many that will help get some arabic support into Calibre :D
[13:32] <oo> Killed it, it's the whole ntfs partition is empty
[13:32] <popey> that ntfs partition _contained_ your ubuntu install
[13:32] <oo> I dreaded that
[13:32] <HazRPG> since it doesn't handle arabic well, I'm planning on reporting some bugs to calibre
[13:32] <oo> Oh fu...
[13:33] <HazRPG> yet it seems to handle other RTL languages...
[13:33] <oo> So as soon as i shutdown/reboot and attempt to start it up again i'm royally screwed?
[13:33] <popey> almost certainly, yes
[13:34] <oo> Shoot me now
[13:34] <popey> *blam*
[13:34]  * popey reloads
[13:34] <popey> *blam* *blam*
[13:34]  * DJones throws a grenade over
[13:35] <oo> I'm screwed, no cd drive, no usb booting, floppy drive, and two gunshot and a grenade wound
[13:36] <popey> do you have a usb disk handy?
[13:36] <X3N> incase anyone is in london and interested: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-uk-list/2011-April/msg00000.html
[13:36] <X3N> *in case
[13:36] <oo> Yes
[13:36] <popey> plug it in and copy your data off?
[13:36] <oo> My datas safe, i have no viable way of getting ubuntu back on the computer though :/
[13:36] <oo> I backed that up before i nuked xp
[13:37] <popey> ah
[13:37] <oo> I guess i shouldn't even wonder into the install via floppy disk method?
[13:37] <DJones> oo: Can you take the drive out and put it in another computer to install onto
[13:38] <dwatkins> oo: how did you install initially?
[13:38] <popey> he used wubi
[13:38] <oo> Windows was put on there when the cd drive worked
[13:38] <dwatkins> oh right, I assume the motherboard doesn't support USB booting, from what you say
[13:39] <oo> not too sure i've never got it to work
[13:39] <oo> http://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/professionalpc/Scenic/ScenicC/scenicC.htm < My computer
[13:40] <dwatkins> is replacing the CD drive possible?
[13:43] <oimon> X3N: that's a good pub
[13:43] <DJones> oo: http://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/professionalpc/FAQ/USB_BIOSUpdate.pdf suggests that USB boot should work
[13:44] <X3N> oimon: yes, yes it is :)
[13:44] <oo> Well i've just got a cd drive, my brother wont notice
[13:44] <oimon> X3N: don't bump your head though
[13:44] <X3N> one of the few advantages of not being tall :)
[13:44] <DJones> oo: Press F2 during boot to get into boot to get into bios and have a look for a boot order selection
[13:45] <oo> Yeah i've fond that in the past
[13:46] <oo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/590216/ < Only bootable options when going to the boot order
[13:47] <oimon> maybe wubi installer should include an option to upgrade an existing wubi install to a dedicated partition
[13:47] <DJones> On machines I've got, usb boot normally only appears if it finds a bootable usb stick inserted though, or hard disk drive has a sub setting for a physical hdd and a 2nd one for USB drive
[13:48] <oo> If it actually is bootable then i could try again
[13:48] <oo> The motherboard is a D1544 by Fujitsu
[13:49] <oo> http://uk.ts.fujitsu.com/rl/servicesupport/techsupport/Boards/Motherboards/Fujitsu/D1544/D1544.htm < tech info
[13:49] <HazRPG> hi ho hi ho... its off to town I go
[13:49] <HazRPG> catch ya later guys
[13:49] <oo> Cya
[13:50] <DJones> oo: Looking at the boot order from that page, it only lists floppy/HDD/CD/Network boot
[13:51] <dwatkins> network boot.... hmmm
[13:51] <dwatkins> oo: do you have another machine on which you could either install linux or boot from CD and use as a network server, that might be an option but it's not easy.
[13:56] <popey> I'd just yank the disk out and slam it in another machine
[13:56] <popey> much less effort IMO
[13:57] <popey> (assuming you have another machine)
[13:57] <oimon> or borrow a CD drive
[13:57] <oimon> i give away machines that are newer than that ..where are you?
[13:58] <oo> Kent
[13:58] <oo> I'll try that option in a sec popey once the hd is gone i go lol
[13:58] <oimon> have about 20 dimension 2400/3000 to offload onto students who already blew their cash on idevices
[14:00] <oo> I'm not a student atm, just not in a greast situation atm :/
[14:01] <oo> If you want to see how the computer running right now this is it: http://i.imgur.com/egfry.jpg
[14:04] <hamitron> HMRC suck :/
[14:04] <shauno> uhoh .. what'd they do you for?
[14:04] <hamitron> nothing
[14:05] <hamitron> but I am getting a lot of phone calls for support, for the end of year
[14:05] <hamitron> seems their servers can't handle it, and my clients always bug me first
[14:05] <shauno> ah
[14:06] <hamitron> one of my clients loves it though
[14:06] <hamitron> he thinks it is great 70+ employee are going to get their wages delayed
[14:07] <hamitron> hehe
[14:07] <oimon> hmm
[14:07] <dwatkins> I suppose I should do my self-assessment with HMRC.
[14:07] <oimon> umm dwatkins wasn't that due in jan?
[14:08] <dwatkins> oimon: yeah
[14:08] <dwatkins> I didnt get the letter for ages because I've moved house
[14:08] <oimon> doh
[14:08] <oimon> i owed them 34p
[14:08] <dwatkins> I was told I didn't need to do it last year, then they sent me a letter anyway, then a fine
[14:09] <dwatkins> hopefully they owe me money which might mean I don't have to pay, but I've never done it before, so am at a loss about the process, need to read-up on how to fill the forms out
[14:10] <hamitron> I just pay someone to do mine
[14:10] <popey> http://www.geteasypeasy.com/ - "Millions of people worldwide use the EasyPeasy Operating System to make their netbook a lean, mean surfing machine."
[14:10] <popey> *millions*
[14:10] <popey> wonder how they measure that
[14:10] <dwatkins> hamitron: I think I probably should do that also
[14:10] <hamitron> millions of trillions or whoopyllions
[14:11] <oimon> popey: i hear apple make more ludicrous claims :P
[14:11] <popey> they can be backed up with sales data
[14:11] <hamitron> dwatkins: costs me £20 every quarter
[14:11] <hamitron> well worth it :)
[14:12] <hamitron> and the girl who does them is rather pleasing to the eye
[14:12] <oimon> popey: ahem http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/03/steve-jobs-reality-distortion-takes-its-toll-on-truth/
[14:12] <dwatkins> blimey, hamitron - what kind of company is that which you use?
[14:12] <dwatkins> please excuse my ancient profanity
[14:13] <hamitron> she does it self employed
[14:13] <hamitron> £10 per hour
[14:13] <oimon> chinese sweatshop?
[14:13] <dwatkins> superb
[14:13] <dwatkins> I imagine it's easy for someone who knows what information is required etc.
[14:14] <oo> I'll see you lot later
[14:14] <hamitron> that £20 includes the organising of my books too
[14:14] <oo> Turning of the computer now, god knows when i'll be back
[14:14] <dwatkins> good luck, oo
[14:14] <bigcalm> Good luck oo
[14:14] <hamitron> she is a saint to put up with my record keeping ;)
[14:14] <oimon> oo: did anyone suggest a dd over the network?
[14:15] <oo> no?
[14:15] <hamitron> talking of tablets
[14:15] <hamitron> http://www.maplin.co.uk/viewpad-7-touch-tablet-511340?&c=maplin&u=maplinnewsletter&utm_source=banners&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_content=newsletterproducts&utm_campaign=maplin
[14:16] <oimon> oo: are you on the machine that is broken, and do you need to keep any data?
[14:16] <oo> TO be honest i think i'm going to try popey's suggestion and put the hardrive in something else and try installing it that way
[14:16] <oo> No i;ve backed up all the data
[14:16] <oo> Lol this is the machine: http://i.imgur.com/egfry.jpg
[14:16] <oimon> oo: yes, that's easier solution - i won't complicate things
[14:16] <oo> No working cd drive, floppy drive only, can't boot from usb
[14:17] <oimon> except you could extract the live cd onto a 1gb partition and make it bootable
[14:17] <dwatkins> oo: yeah, if you can't boot from CD that may be the only way, I just hope the other machine has similar enough hardware it boots ok when you move the disk back
[14:18] <oo> I'll try figure out a way
[14:18] <oo> It's riving me a bit mad, im going to go outside for a bit and relax lol
[14:19] <oo> When i'm next on will be when i've got lubuntu up and running again and it's all going well
[14:19] <oo> So i'll see you.... in a few years lol :) Cheers for the help!
[14:19] <oimon> i discovered today that not all 240pin PC2-5300 RAM is the same :(
[14:20] <oimon> fully buffered ram is different shape :(
[14:23] <brobostigon> good afternoon everyone.
[14:23] <shauno> 'lo bob
[14:24] <brobostigon> hi shauno
[14:26] <xwx> hello good night
[14:26] <brobostigon> nos da xwx
[14:26] <xwx> brobostigon: hi?
[14:26] <brobostigon> xwx: you said good night, i replied with good night in welsh.
[14:26] <xwx> brobostigon: What are you doing now?
[14:27] <brobostigon> xwx: playng with google android app inventor
[14:27] <xwx> brobostigon: I am in China
[14:27] <brobostigon> ah.
[14:28] <xwx> brobostigon: And you??
[14:29] <brobostigon> england.
[14:29] <xwx> brobostigon: Where are you?
[14:29] <xwx> oh
[14:29] <oimon> LOL.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU
[14:29] <xwx> brobostigon: My english is poor
[14:30] <brobostigon> xwx: my welsh is aswell, only more practice will help, :)
[14:30]  * bigcalm shudders at autotune
[14:31] <oimon> bigcalm: used to good effect here :)
[14:31] <oimon> watch out for the ray guns
[14:31] <bigcalm> Still, I can't stand the sound of it
[14:31]  * bigcalm watches with the sound off
[14:32] <xwx> brobostigon: Can you speak chinese?
[14:33] <oimon> bigcalm: the original interview is even funnier..so that's what it's like to only have 1 brain cell
[14:35]  * hamitron aspires to those with a brain cell
[14:37] <brobostigon> xwx: none, sorry.
[14:38] <oimon> xwx is linux popular in china?
[14:38] <xwx> oimon: no
[14:38] <oimon> :(
[14:39] <oimon> not even red flag linux?
[14:39]  * brobostigon unsubcribes from the gnome-shell mailing list, as he didnt like the way a discussion was going.
[14:41] <MartijnVdS> RAGEQUIT ;)
[14:43] <xwx> oimon: what say?
[14:43] <brobostigon> good afternoon MartijnVdS :9
[14:43] <oimon> xwx:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux
[14:43] <brobostigon> :)*
[14:44] <gord> brobostigon, the fedora one?
[14:46] <xwx> oimon: I'm a novice at linuxsystem
[14:46] <brobostigon> gord: gnome's gnome-shell mailing list.
[14:46] <gord> brobostigon, right, i mean there is a large thread about fedora testing on there
[14:47] <xwx> oimon: i am using ubuntu system
[14:47] <brobostigon> gord: that is the one that annoyed me abit.
[14:48] <xwx> oimon: where are you?
[14:49] <xwx> oimon: hello?
[14:50] <jpds> xwx: Probably safe to assume that most of us are in the UK.
[14:52] <oimon> xwx:  i am in uk, as are most of us, for chinese language forums and irc there are also #ubuntu-cn and http://forum.ubuntu.org.cn/ if you wish
[14:53] <brobostigon> gord: simply put, some of the views that were expressed, that clearly werent from people who either knew whatthey were talking about, and or, regurgitating other people's views, and not their own.
[14:54] <xwx> oimon: thanks a lot
[14:56] <gord> if you have post-its on your monitor with things to do on them, and one falls off. that means you don't have to do it right?
[14:56] <bigcalm> Yep
[14:56] <brobostigon> spoton yes, :)
[14:59] <HippyChick1> depends on how interesting it was...
[15:01] <shauno> boy I love early shifts.  getting home at 3pm feels like cheating :)
[15:08] <bigcalm> I used to enjoy late shifts, getting up around 11am was very relaxing
[15:09] <shauno> the difference between 6-6.30 and 6-2.30 doesn't seem to do the numbers justice
[15:33] <MooDoo> hullo all
[15:34] <brobostigon> afternoonings MooDoo :)
[15:35] <MooDoo> hows natty for stability at the moment?   got a show n tell for our local camera club :)
[15:36] <brobostigon> with gnome-shell here, its pretty good.
[15:36] <Tommeh> (Just don't use two monitors.. Then it's confusing)
[15:36] <MooDoo> laptop to i won't be using monitors
[15:37] <brobostigon> becareful of gpu lockups, if you have specifc intel gpu's.
[15:37] <MooDoo> brobostigon: dell studio 1737
[15:37] <brobostigon> like the one in my eeepc 900.
[15:38] <brobostigon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/715096
[15:39] <brobostigon> also interesting are some of its duplicates with different intel gpu's.
[15:39] <MooDoo> ok i'll have a think
[15:40] <shauno> I think the safest claim is that it'd be wise to spend some time with it before flashing it around in public :)
[15:40] <brobostigon> MooDoo: i havent had a gpu lockup in around a week though, so it may have beem worked out.
[15:40] <MooDoo> shauno: it's only really to show it off and demonstrate some apps with the photographer in mind, i don't really need natty :)
[15:41] <shauno> aye, but I wouldn't demo anything else without trying it on first.  just so you're less surprised than they are
[15:41] <MooDoo> aye thanks :)
[15:41] <shauno> even if it's death by powerpoint, I want to see it before they do :/
[15:43] <MooDoo> shauno: i'm only really showing gimp, shotwell and a few raw processing apps
[15:43] <MooDoo> nothing to over strenuous
[15:52] <shauno> well, rescuing the old laptop's partition table went flawlessly :D  phew!
[16:06] <brobostigon> :)
[16:19] <brobostigon> hmm, why doesnt banshee have something as basic as a graphical equaliser, :(
[16:24] <brobostigon> ouch, banshee is using 56% of my ram,
[16:25] <brobostigon> amazing.
[16:25] <Azelphur> Can Ubuntu server move a process to a different core when that core gets busy?
[16:26] <Azelphur> IE: I have 8 game servers running on 4 cores, would it be better to taskset each server or let the kernel handle moving the servers to keep everything running smoothly
[16:26] <MattJ> Not an easy question :)
[16:26] <Azelphur> Indeed :)
[16:26] <Azelphur> I saw it when I was running a ruby benchmark on my desktop, the process seemed to hop between a few cores before finishing
[16:26] <MattJ> Do the processes communicate with each other?
[16:26] <Azelphur> not at all, entirely separate
[16:27] <MattJ> Then I don't think it matters much
[16:27] <gord> let the kernel do its thing
[16:27] <Azelphur> cool :)
[16:27] <Azelphur> when one server is full it'll 100% a core, so I assume the kernel would shuffle everything around such that it fits ok
[16:27] <MattJ> If they did, it could make sense to bind each to its own core, it prevents unnecessary context switching in some cases
[16:28] <MattJ> You don't have to worry about that :)
[16:28] <Azelphur> I don't have to worry about full servers? :o
[16:28]  * Azelphur glares :p
[16:29] <MattJ> Not until they overheat :)
[16:29] <Azelphur> haha
[16:29] <Azelphur> more worried about lag :p
[16:39]  * brobostigon shakes fist at xserver-xorg-video-intel
[16:42] <brobostigon> wow, huge lag :(
[16:51] <Sr_ubuntu> Hello. How i can create one theme mouse from zero? GNOME.
[16:55] <ali1234> brobostigon: i tested natty on my 945 system, gpu works ok, but fan never switches on
[16:55] <ali1234> so gpu lockups could be related to overheating
[16:55] <ali1234> i think it's broken my battery too
[16:55] <ali1234> (again)
[16:56] <brobostigon> ali1234: under normal running, its reporting temperture around 55-59c.
[16:57] <gord> ali1234, you need a fan for a 945 system?
[16:57] <ali1234> yes
[16:57] <ali1234> when i picked it up it nearly hot enough to burn me
[16:58] <brobostigon> ali1234: my eeepc never gets that hot,, it would burn me.
[16:58] <ali1234> probably wouldn't need a fan if you didn't insist on hammering the GPU with flashy effects
[16:58] <gord> it doesn't need a fan
[16:58] <gord> i have several fanless 945 systems
[16:59] <Azelphur> btw popey / HazRPG I was talking to you guys a couple of months ago about a guy DoSing various people and you said I should mail the abuse@ instead of publicly shaming :p
[16:59]  * ali1234 blames gord for breaking acpi support on i945
[16:59] <Azelphur> it's been a month now, no reply from comcast abuse :(
[17:00] <Azelphur> I mailed them packet logs, connection logs, and a list of forum threads from other server admins talking about how to mitigate attacks from the guy
[17:01] <ali1234> did he stop dosing you?
[17:01] <Azelphur> probably, I just iptabled him straight away and carried on
[17:01] <popey> many abuse@ places don't reply at all
[17:02] <Azelphur> other people running game servers obviously arn't as educated / don't have the access to do that
[17:02] <popey> they just do what they have to do
[17:02] <popey> they are under no obligation to contact you back, you're not their customer
[17:02] <Azelphur> popey: I see, his connection is still up :)
[17:02] <popey> they may have contacted him
[17:02] <popey> or may have done nothing
[17:02] <Azelphur> \o/
[17:03] <shauno> most in the US won't do jack without legal threats.  they're too busy taking the front end of the *IAA's abuse to bother worrying about anything they can ignore.
[17:03] <davmor2> http://richarddawkins.net/articles/612418-texas-beer-joint-sues-church-over-lightning-strike moreati just linked to this it's funny as hell :D
[17:04] <ali1234> lol... intellectual checkmate
[17:05] <Azelphur> I did just notice something cool, their domain expires in may
[17:05] <Azelphur> Wonder if they'll let it expire :)
[17:05] <ali1234> fake according to snopes
[17:06] <Azelphur> shauno: \o/
[17:06] <shauno> I think snopes is fake, myself
[17:06] <popey> i think shauno is fake, myself
[17:06] <shauno> (genuinely.  don't trust anything you wrote on the internet, unless snopes writes it on the internet ..?)
[17:06] <Azelphur> i think popey is fake, myself
[17:07] <shauno> heh, I'm serious :/
[17:07] <popey> shauno: snopes tends to have citations
[17:07] <shauno> they do
[17:07] <popey> and its not as black and white as you make it out
[17:07] <shauno> ala http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/spiders.asp
[17:07] <shauno> cited "PC Professional" magazine doesn't, and has never existed
[17:08] <popey> see, I dont believe that :)
[17:09] <popey> http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/506300/VNU-favourite-buy-Ziff-Davis-UK-magazines/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH
[17:09] <popey> "Ziff-Davis publishes seven titles in continental Europe. PC Professional, PC Direct and Internet Professional published in Germany and PC Expert, PC Direct and Yahoo! Internet Life in France"
[17:10] <brobostigon> question, do we have any working ocr software?
[17:10] <popey> that took seconds
[17:10] <shauno> I believe that was PC Pro, not PC Professional
[17:11] <shauno> the germans had a PC Professionall too.  neither of them ever had an article by this Lisa Holst tho
[17:12] <shauno> most of snopes is just alt.folklore.urban rehashed with no actual research.  so citations are just repeated over and over again without ever having existed
[17:14] <shauno> there's people that have chased these by calling the publishers, the us library of congress, etc.  we just take snopes at face value, while they teach us not to do so
[17:14] <ali1234> maybe all the people who claim to have done that are just making it up
[17:14] <ali1234> maybe NOTHING IS REAL OH GOD
[17:15] <DJones> ali1234: To quote teh rocky horror picture show, "Life is an illusion, reality is a figment of the imagination"
[17:16] <ali1234> sorry i can't hear you over my existential crisis
[17:16] <davmor2> DJones: So lets do the timewarp again
[17:16] <DJones> davmor2: Its just a jump to the left..
[17:17] <davmor2> ali1234: just pinch yourself if it hurts you're really and therefore the universe is real too
[17:18] <shauno> unless you don't believe your body is 'you' :)
[17:19] <shauno> "I think", "i do", but I don't "beat my heart".  my heart beats for me.  where the line between "you" and your body as a possession lays, is never that obvious :)
[17:22] <shauno> .. I'll go back to mistreating my laptop now.  the transplant is not without some teething problems.
[17:27] <ali1234> brobostigon: tesseract works
[17:28] <brobostigon> ali1234: thank you, i was just looking on help.ubuntu.com/community  :)
[17:31] <Azelphur> http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/04/05/modernized-commodore-64-pc-will-confuse-co-workers/ win :D
[17:33] <shauno> I can't believe that's actually going anywhere.  commodore usa  have misfired repeatedly trying to sell PCs last few years
[17:33] <Azelphur> seems quite novel to me :p
[17:34] <shauno> I keep trying to pick up a tower case from their last attempt to rehouse my a1200, but it's either stupid shipping prices, or flats of 50
[17:39] <Azelphur> fun
[17:47] <shauno> aww, they have shots of the amiga models they keep promising now, and they're just boxes :(
[18:10] <HazRPG> howdy
[18:10] <brobostigon> good evening HazRPG :)
[18:10] <HazRPG> brobostigon: good evening
[18:12] <HazRPG> hmm, that's annoying... apparently my thread on mobileread.com has been looked at 22 times... but no one has commented :S
[18:13] <brobostigon> :(
[18:14] <HazRPG> and the one of someone asking for arabic feeds, I commented and uploaded a mobi of the most recent news feeds in arabic, but warned about the issues I was having has been looked at a further ~100 times but no comments... I think people have been downloading it, just not caring the thank or at least help fix problems that's with it :(
[18:15] <HazRPG> hum-bug :(
[18:17] <bigcalm> Hi kids
[18:17] <bigcalm> Waiting and working from hospital
[18:17] <Pendulum> bigcalm: you okay?
[18:18] <bigcalm> Pendulum: I'm fine. Visiting Hayley's brother who isn't
[18:18] <Pendulum> bigcalm: aww :( I hope things get better for him
[18:18] <shauno> HazRPG: this is the miracle of free software.  mostly, miraculous that people face the onslaught and carry on gifting their time regardless :)
[18:18] <bigcalm> Left work early to drive us here, but brought my actual laptop this time instead of just my eeepc
[18:18] <HazRPG> bigcalm: :( *hugs*
[18:19] <bigcalm> He's on a ventilator and under sedation, so hopefully he's comfortable
[18:19] <bigcalm> Time to go and have some tea. Taaraa for now
[18:22] <Azelphur> did anyone solve screen glare yet? XD
[18:23] <Azelphur> I like my desk being near the window for sunshine and blue skies, but I can't see my damned screen
[18:26] <HazRPG> Azelphur: screen glare?
[18:26]  * Azelphur takes photo
[18:26] <HazRPG> add three flaps to your monitor :)
[18:26] <HazRPG> top, left, right :)
[18:27] <HazRPG> that'll solve screen glare ;)
[18:27] <Tommeh> And take you right back to the 80's, all at the same time.
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: hey at least I told you how to make it prettier :P
[18:27] <Azelphur> HazRPG: would work if I wasn't quad screen :P
[18:28] <HazRPG> Tommeh: i know right!
[18:28] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: you did?
[18:28] <HazRPG> Azelphur: would, depends how far apart they are
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: yes.. ?
[18:28] <Azelphur> HazRPG: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/March%202010/IMG_20110406_182439.jpg xD
[18:28] <Azelphur> they are touching lol
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: # coding=utf-8
[18:29] <HazRPG> if they're all just next to each other... then same would still apply, except you'd need more cardboard for the top half :P
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: I think one problem is that most people here don't read Arabic very well
[18:29] <Azelphur> lol
[18:30] <Azelphur> strategic curtain positioning \o/
[18:30] <shauno> if you do, love nit picking, and fancy helping, I'm sure there's an i18n team somewhere that'd love to borrow you :)
[18:31] <HazRPG> shauno: heh, just noticed your comment... I must agree, since I can /read/ arabic (sort of) yet I'm still making recipes regardless xD
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Ireland switched to Arabic? 8-)
[18:31] <shauno> MartijnVdS: I more meant somewhere in ubuntuland :p
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> (Irabic?)
[18:32] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: ah, yes I know what your talking about now :)... yeah I'll be getting that moved over so that it works better like that :)
[18:32] <shauno> and no, no arabic here.  we're still working on english.
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> shauno: you'll get the hang of it eventually :)
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> shauno: http://www.ef.com/epi/ef-epi-ranking/
[18:32] <HazRPG> Azelphur: I have a full length curtain to block out my glare problems :D
[18:33] <HazRPG> shauno: hmm, nit picking, i18n team?
[18:33] <Azelphur> hehe
[18:33] <MartijnVdS> I have vertical blinds \o/
[18:34] <shauno> i18n is Internationalization, but a whole lot easier to type
[18:35] <shauno> (eg, arabic isn't a skill your stereotypical contributor possesses, and one that could be handy to the right teams :)
[18:36] <HazRPG> Azelphur: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n1C_fqyz0Rt8GAWU7j1ZHQ?feat=directlink (picture 1)
[18:36] <Azelphur> haha
[18:37] <HazRPG> Azelphur: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nkVPvIS2xXSn2PUqzCBu4w?feat=directlink (picture 2 - closed curtain)
[18:37] <Azelphur> \o/
[18:37] <HazRPG> works for me :)
[18:38] <HazRPG> if I really need the light, I can open the door to the right of me (or to the left if your looking at the picture linked above)... and insta-extra light! (because straight on from that door is the half-glass door to the outside world!
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> MAGIC!
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> WITCH!
[18:39] <Azelphur> ^
[18:40] <HazRPG> shauno: ah cool, I'm with you now... I might need to further my skill level in arabic reading first :P
[18:40] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: hehe
[18:41] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: that's how I roll, magic is in the blood ;)
[18:41] <shauno> HazRPG: :)  if you can get by enough to spot where it breaks, good practice & good hunting :)  just a thought
[18:41] <HazRPG> shauno: indeed!
[18:43] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: hmmm... I'm curious as to why Egypt isn't on that link you sent... considering they teach English to all 5 year olds and improve on it as they progress through school
[18:44] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: yet saudi is on there, and I'm pretty sure saudi local schools don't teach english until they're like mid-teens
[18:44] <fujisan> Hello may i ask a question?
[18:44] <HazRPG> fujisan: that's what we're here for, fire away
[18:44] <fujisan> is there a zero tolerance policy against racism in Ubuntu channels?
[18:44] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: they might not have run the poll there
[18:44] <fujisan> i just experienced racism in a dutch ubuntu channel i rebelled against it and i got banned
[18:45] <fujisan> makes me really sad things like this still happen in the 21st century in ubuntu channels esp.
[18:45] <fujisan> it happened in a dutch ubuntu channel so i shouldnt be too surprised
[18:45] <HazRPG> fujisan: as far as I know, no racism is in the code of conduct... so in theory they shouldn't allow it
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: the Dutch ubuntu community was annoying when I left 4 years ago
[18:46] <fujisan> maybe i overreacted but still
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: it hasn't gotten better..
[18:46] <fujisan> ye
[18:46] <Myrtti> interesting...
[18:46] <fujisan> MartijnVdS unfortunately
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: just report it "up" to the next council
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> they'll help fix it
[18:46] <HazRPG> fujisan: we're friendly enough here, so stick around :)
[18:46] <fujisan> oh ok thanks
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Well, we try to be :)
[18:47] <brobostigon> definatly, :)
[18:47] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: trying is better than *not* at all :P
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: good point
[18:47] <fujisan> MartijnVdS i captured it in my comic chat client it's in dutch http://imgur.com/gFbol
[18:47] <fujisan> supposedly it was a joke but i didnt find it funny
[18:48] <HazRPG> fujisan: haha winner! I haven't seen microsoft chat in since back in the win98 days!
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: It's a joke, but a tasteless one
[18:48] <HazRPG> I thought that died years ago :(
[18:48] <fujisan> ye
[18:49] <HazRPG> I don't get why microsoft killed support for that, I thought it was a pretty awesome client
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: complaining to the ops should work, especially if it happens (more) often
[18:49] <HazRPG> I managed to knock together my own lil character for it n everything back when I was 15 :)
[18:49] <gordonjcp> fujisan: is it even worth putting that into Google Translate?
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: you're still 15, right?
[18:49] <shauno> woah.  howdy fujisan
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: no.
[18:50] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: it won't happen more often if he's banned though :/
[18:50] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: I wish xD
[18:50] <HazRPG> life is so much simple when your 15 :P
[18:50] <HazRPG> simpler*
[18:53] <fujisan> MartijnVdS not to the belgian op he banned me
[18:53] <fujisan> he didnt even see it as a problem
[18:53] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: also depends on the way you ask/tell of course
[18:53] <fujisan> hi shauno :)
[18:54] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam
[18:54] <fujisan> i followed the path of righteous indignation wish was probably wrong
[18:54] <fujisan> i think i just won't go there anymore even if they ever unban me
[18:55] <fujisan> HazRPG ye for sure
[18:55] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: but if you don't follow the "official" Ubuntu-irc path to get unbanned, they'll never learn
[18:55] <fujisan> ye sure
[18:55] <fujisan> i'll try
[18:55] <fujisan> then
[18:56] <MartijnVdS> fujisan: you might want to point at the official logs rather than your image though
[18:56] <MartijnVdS> !logs
[18:56] <fujisan> the channel is logged so that shouldnt be a problem
[18:56] <fujisan> i just dont have the logs myself
[18:57] <shauno> the image made me chuckle  (don't understand the text myself), but their own logs are impartial (and easier to read :)
[18:57] <fujisan> hmz
[18:57] <fujisan> i dont see the offtopic channel listed
[18:58] <Myrtti> which offtopic channel?
[18:58] <fujisan> ubuntu-nl-offtopic
[18:59]  * bigcalm returns for a bit
[18:59] <brobostigon> wb bigcalm :)
[19:00] <bigcalm> Cheers :)
[19:00] <bigcalm> As far as hospitals go, this one isn't too bad
[19:00] <brobostigon> thats good.
[19:01]  * brobostigon points out now.he doesnt like hospitals, he has been in hospital enough times.
[19:01] <bigcalm> Pleasing that I'm actually able to get a strong enough signal for hspda
[19:01] <brobostigon> wow, :)
[19:01] <brobostigon> hsdpa*
[19:02] <bigcalm> Thank you ;)
[19:02] <bigcalm> Correct letters, wrong order
[19:02] <bigcalm> I could just say edge
[19:02] <brobostigon> not accurate.
[19:02] <bigcalm> No?
[19:02] <bigcalm> Ho hum
[19:03] <brobostigon> hsdpa is a 3g technology, edge is 2.5g.
[19:03] <bigcalm> My phone says H instead of 3G or 3.5G
[19:03] <brobostigon> bigcalm: so does mine,
[19:03] <bigcalm> Ah, I see
[19:03] <brobostigon> and 2.2.1
[19:03] <brobostigon> android*
[19:04] <bigcalm> 2.3.3 CyanogenMod 7 rc4
[19:04] <brobostigon> heh :(
[19:04] <bigcalm> Isn't there a build for your handset?
[19:06] <HazRPG> fujisan: still can't believe that microsoft chat still gets used! :)
[19:06] <brobostigon> bigcalm: yes and no, CM have working source for htc dream, however, to try and do anything with it, gingerbread uses too much ram and memory, k9 consitently restarts for example, because it tryies to use ram, but gets killed, when it tries to use ram. gingerbreadisjust too ram hungry.
[19:06] <brobostigon> sorry, that is a assay.:(
[19:06] <HazRPG> fujisan: I just thought, that could partially the reason you got banned, because I recall microsoft chat does spam the channel a bit due to the avatars n what not
[19:06] <fujisan> HazRPG it's very creative though
[19:07] <bigcalm> brobostigon: sucky :(
[19:07] <brobostigon> bigcalm: very, yes, :(
[19:07] <HazRPG> fujisan: I agree, I use to use it for years until microsoft pulled it out of their support life-cycle
[19:07] <fujisan> http://kurlander.net/DJ/Projects/ComicChat/resources.html
[19:07] <fujisan> i just find it interesting
[19:07] <brobostigon> bigcalm: so this is the cloest and newest to a properlyfunctioning system.
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> On another channel I'm on (not Ubuntu-related :)) we used to annoy Comic Chat users
[19:08] <fujisan> hehe
[19:08] <MartijnVdS> #APPEARS AS TIKI
[19:08] <HazRPG> fujisan: you've sort of inspired me to make a pidgin plugin that does something similar :)
[19:08] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: O M G NOOO
[19:08] <fujisan> lol
[19:09] <brobostigon> bigcalm: and i can get hsdpa here, however the signal is pretty patchy and bad. :(
[19:09] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: hehe, aww why not! I use to love comic chat!
[19:09] <shauno> I've lived in a fair few channels where uttering the phrase 'Appears as' provoked the bots into banning you.  comic chat is funny, the 'out of band' messages it subjects everyone else to, can get a bit tiresome
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: make it an empathy/gwibber theme :)
[19:09] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: obviously I'd devise a way so that it didn't spam the main channel...
[19:09] <gordonjcp> shauno: "appears as"?
[19:10] <bigcalm> brobostigon: just stay close to a wifi signal - sit in mcdonald's all day
[19:10] <shauno> gordonjcp: the first utterance of the comic chat client.  "# Appears as <name>"
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: Comic chat says "#APPEARS AS <comic character name>"
[19:10] <brobostigon> bigcalm: mc-donalds, i dont think so.
[19:10] <gordonjcp> ah, okay
[19:11] <popey> brobostigon: I often use the free wifi in mcdonalds
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> popey: because you eat there every day, right?
[19:12] <popey> :)
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> *ahem*
[19:12] <popey> not quite
[19:12] <brobostigon> popey: i would prefer a whetherspoons myself. :9
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> every other day then :P
[19:12] <popey> understandable brobostigon :)
[19:12] <brobostigon> :)
[19:14] <bigcalm> The coffee isn't that bad. Handy when you're in the depths of Wales with a weak phone signal
[19:14] <popey> heh
[19:14] <popey> thats exactly where I used to use it most
[19:14] <bigcalm> Speaking of which, we need to make a trip to Aberystwyth soon. Not that far away and lovely coast
[19:15] <brobostigon> bigcalm: a ger together with the ubuntu-cymru guys?
[19:15] <brobostigon> get*
[19:16] <bigcalm> brobostigon: newp, just want to show Hayley where I used to go for holidays as a child
[19:16] <bigcalm> My grandparents used to have a cottage near Borth
[19:16] <brobostigon> bigcalm: ah, sounds interesting, :)
[19:16] <brobostigon> ok,
[19:16] <popey> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Maes-y-felin,+swansea&aq=&sll=51.523337,-3.588302&sspn=0.008705,0.02444&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Maes+y+Felin,+Swansea,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.677578,-3.996084&spn=0.002169,0.00611&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.678066,-3.996103&panoid=Jl-Q48jT8bipnug_T6Oa6w&cbp=12,237.95,,0,13.51
[19:17] <popey> that one!
[19:17] <bigcalm> And the country side is stunning. Really want to just drive there now :)
[19:18] <bigcalm> popey: I can't believe you went looking for the location of the mcdonald's you used to frequent!
[19:18] <popey> :)
[19:18] <popey> yes, you can :)
[19:18] <MartijnVdS> Java people? (Azelphur ?) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL2D3qzHtqY
[19:18] <bigcalm> Aye, that's true
[19:19] <bigcalm> Oh, 3 days booked in the Premier Inn...
[19:19] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: haha, I'm trying to be a java person
[19:19] <popey> :)
[19:19] <Azelphur> so far I've done hello world.
[19:20] <bigcalm> This is as far as I got with Java http://lazygnome.net/projects/WebClock2/
[19:20] <MartijnVdS> "Missing plugin"
[19:20] <bigcalm> Java
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> apparently, I don't have java installed :)
[19:21] <bigcalm> :P
[19:21] <brobostigon> the most i have done with java, that i understood is with google app inventor, and that isnt even java,
[19:21] <brobostigon> done/understood.*
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> I've done a little bit of Java in school, 12 years ago :)
[19:22] <HazRPG> I made a client/server app that serves an access database
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> and a few "Hello world" Android bits
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> oh and some "Hello world" JavaME bits back in the early Smart Phone Age
[19:22] <HazRPG> back in college
[19:22] <Azelphur> I'm currently trying to do some contrib to yaaic though :P
[19:22] <HazRPG> Azelphur: if I've still got the zip with all my tutors lectures and examples for making a client/server, I'll link you up to them if you like
[19:23] <Azelphur> that sounds cool
[19:23] <bigcalm> Time to visit Hayley's brother for a bit before we go home.
[19:23] <bigcalm> Laters peeps
[19:24] <HazRPG> its got both the labs and also explanation files, along with some source code files when it said "try using ... file" and change to do /this/ and /that/, etc
[19:24] <jacobw> head first java
[19:24] <brobostigon> bye bigcalm
[19:24] <popey> o/
[19:24] <bigcalm> Toodles :)
[19:24] <Azelphur> HazRPG: cool :D
[19:25] <HazRPG> Azelphur: found it!
[19:25] <Azelphur> :D
[19:26] <HazRPG> Azelphur: it doesn't have lessons 1-6, but I don't think he ever shared those... and they were just about basic hello world stuff
[19:26] <HazRPG> 1-5* even
[19:26] <Azelphur> hehe
[19:26] <jacobw> ah, android irc, i knew i'd heard of yaaic
[19:26] <HazRPG> Azelphur: ah no wait, they were powerpoint files... and those are in its own folder :) - seems I packaged this collection quite well :)
[19:27] <Azelphur> HazRPG: :D
[19:27] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Congratulations on GNOME 3! - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/04/06/congratulations-on-gnome-3/
[19:27] <HazRPG> Azelphur: sent you an IM with the link :)
[19:27] <Azelphur> ty
[19:28] <HazRPG> Azelphur: bare in mind this is the files he would hand out and he did explain it more in the lectures... however the files do explain things pretty well regardless
[19:28] <Azelphur> :D
[19:29] <HazRPG> he used some funny names for his variables, so just keep that in mind
[19:29] <HazRPG> (e.g. a socket was just labelled "ss", etc - but they sort of make sense)
[19:29] <fujisan> anybody going to watch the CL game?
[19:29] <HazRPG> fujisan: CL?
[19:30] <fujisan>  chelsea vs manutd
[19:30] <jacobw> nope :p
[19:45] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: the sound on that video for JVM is pretty scratchy and hurts my ears >_<
[19:46] <HazRPG> anyone out there that has dual-screens using the nvidia drivers on a linux distro confirm if youtube works properly now?
[19:46] <Azelphur> HazRPG: full screen?
[19:46] <HazRPG> I suppose I could just disable my hack to get it to work and see if it works :/
[19:46] <HazRPG> Azelphur: yeah
[19:46] <Azelphur> No, on natty
[19:46] <Azelphur> I havn't rebooted for the most recent update though
[19:46] <MartijnVdS> nvidia + properly? hahaha
[19:47] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: :P
[19:47] <HazRPG> Azelphur: you should lookup ali1234's fullscreen hack :)
[19:47] <HazRPG> Azelphur: works amazingly!
[19:48] <Azelphur> HazRPG: yea I need to do that sometime
[19:48] <HazRPG> only issue is that it still puts the fullscreen-ed window onto the first monitor (or monitor 0)
[19:48] <HazRPG> but that's due to flash more than anything else
[19:49] <ali1234> i was thinking about that
[19:49] <ali1234> it actually opens on the first window but with the size of which ever window flashplugin started on
[19:50] <ali1234> s/window/screen/
[19:50] <HazRPG> so if it was started on a smaller screen, it would still stretch incorrectly?
[19:57]  * MartijnVdS cleans up his ~ in preparation of a reinstall
[20:14] <brobostigon> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/04/06/congratulations-on-gnome-3/
[20:20] <brobostigon> http://www.osnews.com/comments/24609
[20:23] <brobostigon> can i shke my fist atthem, either, it seems the people commenting havent tried it, and or are regurgitating otherpeoples thoughts, and nothing original. worst is saying, someone there comparing it to windows, and saying, window's gui hasnt changed, hmm, i dont believe it.
[20:23] <brobostigon> arghh.
[20:25] <jacobw> its no different to what people said about kde4, even people who've pontificated about change for years don't like change
[20:26] <brobostigon> jacobw: i think you are right, it meaningless and i will ignore it for most, unless it is original constructive discussion.
[20:27] <directhex> it's @1990slinuxuser!
[20:27] <brobostigon> directhex: i didnt truly use linux then.
[20:28] <ali1234> thing is we had the same thing with gnome 2
[20:28] <directhex> brobostigon, twitter.com/1990slinuxuser
[20:28] <ali1234> everyone hated it
[20:28] <jacobw> brobostigon: i think 'thom holwerda' is right, "we're living in fortunate times .. with two wildly divergent open source desktops."
[20:28] <ali1234> what happened was slowly all the things everyone hated got reverted
[20:28] <ali1234> and gnome developers acted like they never did anything wrong
[20:29] <brobostigon> jacobw: he cannot comment, ashe hanst tried it, yes. and open source is choice here, and i am up for constructive disicussion, but not stupis regurgitation.
[20:30] <brobostigon> ali1234: i hope that doesnt happen, in truth.
[20:30] <ali1234> i've tried it; it sucks
[20:30] <ali1234> therefore your argument is invalid
[20:30] <brobostigon> ali1234: gnome2 or gnome3?
[20:30] <ali1234> both actually
[20:30] <ali1234> gnome 2 sucked when it was new
[20:31] <ali1234> gnome 3 sucks too
[20:31] <ali1234> give it about 2 years and all the bad stuff will get removed
[20:31] <ali1234> the maximize button will be back
[20:31] <brobostigon> ali1234: gnome3 improves in alot of ways on gnome2, like its workspace management, like it notifications.
[20:31] <ali1234> sure
[20:32] <ali1234> the things that work will be kept, the things that are dumb will go
[20:32] <brobostigon> ali1234: and why have minimise, if you have nothing to minimise too?
[20:32] <ali1234> that's how it works
[20:32] <brobostigon> zilch.
[20:32] <ali1234> they will relent on that one too
[20:32] <ali1234> either they'll add a task bar to gnome-shell, or everyone will just stay with gnome classicv
[20:32] <brobostigon> ali1234: why, you only need to minimise windows, if you have something to minimise too.
[20:33] <ali1234> either way the buttons will be back
[20:33] <brobostigon> no point,
[20:33] <brobostigon> ali1234: you didnt answer my question.
[20:33] <ali1234> that's like saying you only need roads if you have cars, therefore you don't need roads, because we've taken away your cars
[20:33] <ali1234> it doesn't make any sense in the real world
[20:34] <brobostigon> ali1234: my only need for minimise, was to access the desktop, i had no other purpose for it, there were other ways to manage progs and their windows.
[20:34] <ali1234> so what?
[20:34] <ali1234> you are one person
[20:35] <ali1234> and you think beos is the best thing evar
[20:35] <brobostigon> ali1234: it seems the gnome design team, and alot of other people agree with me.
[20:35] <brobostigon> and my logic,
[20:35] <ali1234> funny i don't see them anywhere
[20:35] <ali1234> nobody agreed with the gnome design team when 2 was released, and nobody agrees with them now
[20:36] <gord> design means nothing until its tested, we changed a bunch of stuff in unity once we got it in the hands of testers
[20:36] <brobostigon> ali1234: in its basic OS design yes, like a microkernel, and servers ontop of it, and its FS, etc.
[20:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: this time they're really wrong though
[20:36] <ali1234> history will repeat itself
[20:36] <brobostigon> gord: which they have done over time with gnome-shell aswell, :)
[20:36] <ali1234> the principle behind gnome 3, unity, kde 4 etc seems to be "throw a bunch of **** at the wall and see what sticks"
[20:36] <ali1234> which is fair enough
[20:37]  * MartijnVdS turns on the fan :P
[20:37] <gord> brobostigon, no - i mean real testers
[20:37] <gord> kicking something out of the door will get you far more testers than you ever wanted/needed ;)
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> gord: yeah noticed that today :)
[20:37] <brobostigon> gord: alot of people test gnome-shell in real life, i have for the last year, more orless,
[20:37] <gord> brobostigon, no matter how many do, its not enough and its people invested in the idea
[20:38] <MartijnVdS> gord: (we switched a customer-facing bit of code from FreeBSD to Debian, in a new version..)
[20:39] <brobostigon> gord: you maybe right, alot of peopleworked on its design, who probebly deserve more appreication.
[20:40] <gord> brobostigon, thats not what i'm saying, what i'm saying is that people invested in the idea testing doesn't help. unity was designed in much the same way - then we put it infront of real people - who had never seen unity before and it was tough for them. that sucked, we went back after that and took a second look at lots of our design
[20:40] <gord> basically, until you kick something out the door, get people who don't even know what it it using it, its not a tested design
[20:40] <ali1234> the exact same thing has happened in windows over the years
[20:41] <ali1234> so many new features touted as the greatest innovation ever, only to be quietly turned off in service packs :)
[20:41] <brobostigon> gord: they ans we, who use gnome-shell/gnome3 will be doing the same thing. no doubt,
[20:42] <brobostigon> gord: and i will be taking a page out of popey's book, and putting gnome3 in  few weeks, infront of my mum.
[20:46] <ali1234> i can't really think of any examples where apple has gone back on new features
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Everything pre-OSX:)
[20:46] <ali1234> yeah
[20:46] <ali1234> but since then...
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> window rollup
[20:46] <brobostigon> well using unix, is a huge improvement really.
[20:46] <gord> i have a feeling they will go back on some of the new iphonification they are doing to osx
[20:46] <gord> in time
[20:47] <ali1234> i mean like changing something, claiming the new way is better, then going back because everyone hated it
[20:47] <gord> course it'll be announced as a new feature ;)
[20:47] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: striped grey backgrounds
[20:47] <brobostigon> no idea, never use mac-osx, i have used its underlying bsd, darwin before.
[20:47] <brobostigon> used*
[20:48] <ali1234> like gnome 2 and windows 95 did with spatial browsing
[20:48] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: it's a mach kernel with some bsd userland
[20:48] <gord> i thought gnome2 stuck with spatial browsing?
[20:48] <ali1234> or clippy/the search dog is another example
[20:48] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yes, based in part on nextstep. i agree. hence partly darwin.
[20:48] <gord> it was an ubuntu distropatch that disabled it
[20:48] <ali1234> gord: they might have, but all distros turn it off because it sucks
[20:49] <brobostigon> spatial browsing?
[20:49] <ali1234> and every windows after win95 has it off by default
[20:49] <gord> brobostigon, basically folder windows always opening in new windows
[20:50] <ali1234> also you can only open each folder once
[20:50] <brobostigon> gord: i hated that, yes.
[20:50] <ali1234> everyone except gnome designers hated it
[20:51] <ali1234> just like gnome-shell :)
[20:51] <jacobw> designers suck :p
[20:51] <brobostigon> ali1234: gnome3 uses nautilus, its all in one window,
[20:51] <ali1234> quite often they seem extremely out of touch with real users
[20:51] <ali1234> but if 50% of what they come up with is good i can live with that
[20:52] <brobostigon> ali1234: nautilus does not open new windows, for each file manager change.
[20:52] <ali1234> it doesn't any more
[20:52] <ali1234> it did when gnome 2 was first released
[20:52] <ali1234> then they quietly went back on it
[20:52] <brobostigon> ali1234: it didnt in 10.10's nautilus either.
[20:52] <ali1234> of course it didn't, gnome 2 is like 10 years old
[20:52] <brobostigon> ali1234: hmmm,
[20:53] <ali1234> i don't know what happens if you install gnome 2 from upstream source
[20:53] <ali1234> maybe it still uses spatial by default, idk... but the fact is nobody actually uses gnome 2 vanilla except gnome developers
[20:54] <gord> brobostigon, ubuntu has always turned spacial mode off
[20:54] <gord> its not the gnome default
[20:54] <shauno> spatial was awkward.  it made logical sense, but went against what people are used to.  sometimes the right thing to do, isn't the right thing to do.
[20:54] <nperry> Happy Gnome3 Day <3
[20:55] <brobostigon> gord: oh, i see. interesting, i didnt know.
[20:55] <brobostigon> nperry: yay, :), yes.
[20:55] <ali1234> did they release it today or something?
[20:55] <brobostigon> ali1234: gnome3 fully, yes.
[20:56] <ali1234> that's probably why nobody looked at my bug report from yesterday yet then
[20:56] <ali1234> too busy arguing about minimize button on web forums
[20:56] <brobostigon> ali1234: is it to do with gnome3 somehow?
[20:56] <brobostigon> ali1234: link me up, please.
[20:56] <shauno> I miss garnome.  once upon a time, I'd be building gnome by now :)
[20:57] <ali1234> brobostigon: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646867
[20:57] <brobostigon> ali1234: i will give it a read.
[20:58] <ali1234> there's no need unless you're planning on writing a patch, it's a cut and dried bug :)
[20:58] <brobostigon> valgrind ?
[20:58] <ali1234> yes, valgrind
[20:58] <ali1234> !valgrind
[20:58] <MartijnVdS> hmm valgrind
[20:59] <ali1234> aw no factoid
[20:59] <MartijnVdS> good thing I don't use non-compiled languages anymore :)
[20:59] <brobostigon> !info valgrind
[20:59] <MartijnVdS> uhr
[20:59] <MartijnVdS> compiled*
[20:59] <brobostigon> !info valgrind natty
[20:59] <brobostigon> ah, ok. i see.
[20:59] <brobostigon> sorry.
[20:59]  * nperry gets my whistle out for gnome3
[20:59] <nperry> 10seconds
[21:00] <ali1234> download the testcase and run it if you want to see the bug
[21:00] <nperry> Ok, gnome3 is here.
[21:00] <ali1234> you'll hit OOM in about 5 minutes
[21:00] <brobostigon> ali1234: i might yes,
[21:00] <brobostigon> ali1234: maybe not then, no.
[21:00] <ali1234> i need to report the other bug on gnome-system-monitor too
[21:00] <brobostigon> nperry: you a gnome3 user?
[21:01] <phonex01> hello guys
[21:01] <phonex01> how are you there ?
[21:01] <nperry> brobostigon: I am..
[21:01] <brobostigon> good evening phonex01
[21:01] <brobostigon> nperry: :)
[21:01] <jacobw> quite a few of us are here
[21:01] <phonex01> it is amazing weather here ,,,,, good for hacking hahahha
[21:01] <nperry> brobostigon: Just installing the gnome3 ppa stack.. Been an avid jhbuilder for the last 6 months.
[21:01] <brobostigon> nperry: we were justdiscussing some of the design an philosopihcal decisions behind it.
[21:02] <brobostigon> nperry: i am using the gnome3-teams ppa in natty.
[21:02] <phonex01> i have three WIFI access point around and im thinking ....
[21:02]  * nperry hopes for buttons not to come up.
[21:02] <brobostigon> nperry: we discussed that.
[21:02] <nperry> brobostigon: just my two cents... I don't use max or min.... EVER!
[21:03] <nperry> So it fits well with me.
[21:03] <jacobw> most people do though :|
[21:03] <willy1977> evening...
[21:03] <brobostigon> nperry: i only used minimise, to get to dsktop myself, so it had very littleppoint in being there, once a traditional desktop no longer existed.
[21:04] <nperry> jacobw: rm -rf *; git clone nperry
[21:04] <ali1234> i use minimize any time i want to see the window behind the window i'm using
[21:04] <MartijnVdS> nperry: you're saying some git is cloning you?
[21:04] <brobostigon> ali1234: alt-tab ?
[21:04] <ali1234> no, i never use alt-tab
[21:05] <brobostigon> ali1234: you should do, it is very useful, :)
[21:05] <ali1234> no, it sucks
[21:05] <nperry> alt+tab means taking your hand from my trackpad
[21:05] <nperry> as normaly you move into a window to move curose not type.
[21:05] <ali1234> alt tab fails quite hard on a dual head setup
[21:05] <ali1234> you never know what you're going to get when you press it
[21:06] <brobostigon> nperry: i try and use my mouse as little as possible, and alt-tab works vert well to achieve that,
[21:06] <ali1234> with minimize i know i will always get the window behind the current window
[21:06] <ali1234> with alt tab it can be a window on the other monitor
[21:06] <ali1234> pretty much all these fancy new desktops fail horrible on dual head
[21:06] <ali1234> another thing i do very often is minimize or maximize a window that doesn't have focus
[21:06] <brobostigon> ali1234: i have never use multi-monitor, so i had no idea, i couldnt speak for.
[21:07] <ali1234> which doesn't really work when the buttons are hidden on all but the focussed window
[21:07] <ali1234> see "how do i minimize firefox?" image i posted the other day - there is actually bug on launchpad about this now
[21:08] <ali1234> since some windows you *can't* focus for one reason or another
[21:08] <ali1234> then you can never minimize them
[21:08] <ali1234> then there's windows where clicking on them would perform some action you don't want
[21:09] <brobostigon> i would simply alt-tab and or by some method choose the window i want, irrelivant as to minimise, what if all window are minimised and only desktop is visible.
[21:09] <ali1234> well yeah that's another problem with alt tab
[21:09] <ali1234> at any given time probably 75% of my windows are minimized
[21:09] <ali1234> alt-tab is going to show them all
[21:10] <ali1234> or i can just work on a subset using minimize/maximize/restore
[21:10] <brobostigon> its not an issue, alt-tabworks very well, and  for my use, it works perfectly.
[21:10] <brobostigon> alt-tab in gnome-shell show the apps, and then the window within those apps, works very well.
[21:10] <brobostigon> good window management.
[21:11] <brobostigon> windows*
[21:11] <brobostigon> shows*
[21:11] <ali1234> it's the same problem that unity's start menu has
[21:11] <ali1234> instead of allowing you to work in a subset, it just slaps everything into one huge list because "it's simpler"
[21:11] <brobostigon> unity doesnt have a start menu.
[21:11] <ali1234> yes it does
[21:12] <brobostigon> no,
[21:12] <ali1234> http://www.hackourlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Unity-Start-Menu.jpeg
[21:12] <ali1234> that's out of date
[21:12] <ali1234> it still exists though
[21:13] <brobostigon> ali1234: can we be specifc as to what we mean by a start menu, as in a windows like one?
[21:13] <ali1234> start menu = menu you click on to start programs
[21:13] <ali1234> just because it's crap doesn't mean it's not a start menu :)
[21:13] <ali1234> even the KDE4 one is less annoying
[21:14] <brobostigon> ali1234: i click on nothing to start progs, i hit super button, start typing, and hit enter, i havent clicked on anything.
[21:14] <ali1234> super button... as in the windows key? as in the key that shows the start menu on windows?
[21:14] <brobostigon> yes.
[21:14] <ali1234> when i want to run programs by typing the name of them, i use a shell
[21:15] <ali1234> but yeah... that search box is a part of the start menu
[21:16] <ali1234> i actually do the same thing, because hunting through the menus is so awful
[21:16] <ali1234> but i don't like it at all
[21:16] <ali1234> when it searches it's really slow
[21:16] <ali1234> it's like the firefox awesome bar
[21:16] <brobostigon> there is an applist seperate though, always there,
[21:16] <ali1234> type 3 chars, wait 30 seconds while the computer grinds...
[21:16] <brobostigon> ali1234: gnome-shells is quite quick, even on my eeepc,
[21:17] <brobostigon> ali1234: almost immediate,
[21:18] <ali1234> i bet it won't be quick when whatever database backend it uses gets full of cruft
[21:19] <HazRPG> wow, seems I missed a lot by watching a google talk on youtube T_T
[21:19] <brobostigon> ali1234: it has had about 2 months of going now, and is same speed, if not quicker.
[21:19] <nperry> brobostigon: You said you was using the gnome3 ppa?
[21:19] <HazRPG> gnome3 + unity discussions are relevant to my interests! I hate both!
[21:19] <HazRPG> simply put
[21:19] <ali1234> mee too
[21:20] <brobostigon> nperry: gnome3-teams ppa, yes.
[21:20] <HazRPG> multi-screens sort of kills the whole "fancy desktop" situation
[21:20] <ali1234> actually i don't hate gnome3, just gnome-shell
[21:20] <HazRPG> before I had 2 screens, I use to be a frequent alt+tabber
[21:20] <ali1234> HazRPG: yeah we already went over that
[21:20] <HazRPG> but now that I have 2 screens... it sort of doesn't work
[21:20] <HazRPG> ali1234: yeah I know, I'm just assuring brobostigon that your not the only one that feels that way
[21:20] <brobostigon> on my next machine, i will get multi-monitor, and try, and see.
[21:21] <ali1234> despite the way it seems, i'm not unique :)
[21:21] <willy1977> you don't work in the same way with dual head...
[21:21] <willy1977> hence the fancy dan stuff get's in the way ;)
[21:21] <ali1234> i just like to argue against the majority viewpoint
[21:21] <brobostigon> willy1977: as i said,i will try it out, and see.
[21:21] <HazRPG> brobostigon: trust me alt+tabbing will become annoying when you realise that if your looking at one screen and you alt+tab, and suddenly something shows up on your other screen...
[21:21] <ali1234> if everyone was bashing gnome-shell i'd probably say it was great
[21:22] <brobostigon> HazRPG: hmm, i cant really imagine that, unless i try it, i think.
[21:22] <willy1977> brobostigon: indeed it's worth a look makes you think different I run it at work as I have the space don't have the space here at home ;)
[21:22] <jacobw> ali1234 is contrary :p
[21:23] <willy1977> or ali1234: fights for the underdog?
[21:23] <brobostigon> willy1977: i could make the space, no easy, but i could, if i had enough money to,
[21:23] <HazRPG> brobostigon: using multiple screens can make life SOOOOO much easier, however some designs for desktop management can get in the way of it though
[21:24] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i would love to see more than one window at once, i can imagine it, it would help hugely.
[21:24] <ali1234> such as the design where you're only allowed a launcher on the first screen
[21:24] <willy1977> ah money always the issue...
[21:24] <HazRPG> brobostigon: I see if I can describe it. Lets say you have four applications, 2 on each screen. However lets say for example you opened them at alternate times, so app 1 and 3 are on the left screen and app 2 and 4 are on the right screen (this can get even more annoying when you have as many apps open as I do).
[21:25] <willy1977> HazRPG: definitely more productive with it - but the simpler desktops work better with it IMO
[21:25] <HazRPG> willy1977: agreed
[21:25] <brobostigon> HazRPG: ok, yes, i think i understand,
[21:26]  * brobostigon goes for a rest, in search of beer in the fridge,
[21:26] <shauno> the main catch isn't the order they were opened in.  it's that alt-tab tries to re-arrange the tab order constantly so repeatedly alt-tapping flips between the app in front, and the app you last used behind it.
[21:26] <shauno> it's an assumption that isn't always true for dualhead
[21:26] <ali1234> shauno: bingo
[21:27] <shauno> and when it's true, it's luck.  luck-based task switching sucks.
[21:27] <ali1234> heh
[21:27] <HazRPG> brobostigon: so when you alt+tab, your not alt+tabbing to the app directly behind the one your looking at, your alt+tabbing to the one on the other screen... and the more you have open, the worse this is. In fact even holding ALT and cycling through tabs can sometimes not help at all, because your not sure which screen its going to pop up on.
[21:27] <ali1234> this is why i have a start enu and a task bar on both screens
[21:28] <brobostigon> HazRPG: hmmm, that isnt logical behaviour,
[21:29] <ali1234> right, and that's why none of us uses alt-tab afaict
[21:29] <HazRPG> brobostigon: yeah, I guess... but this is how it works once you've got two screens.
[21:29]  * brobostigon returns, beer in hand,
[21:29] <HazRPG> and why it gets frustrating
[21:30] <brobostigon> HazRPG: it makes no sense, i would want fine choice and to what is open, how, and where, and not leave it down to chance,
[21:30] <HazRPG> ali1234: I have 3 panels total, don't see the point in two task bars. Plus 2 menu's are pointless when I have most used apps on the two top panels
[21:31] <ali1234> two task bars so that the task bar only shows apps from that screen
[21:31] <ali1234> and two menus because i often run fullscreen apps on both displays
[21:31] <willy1977> I think win 7 deals with this (depending on how you bring up the alt-tab list) by giving a set of numbered applications when you hover over one it highlights it up on the screen it's running on... hmmm?
[21:31] <ali1234> gaming on primary, watching videos on secondary
[21:31] <HazRPG> ali1234: ahhh I didn't realise task bars did that!
[21:32] <HazRPG> I might have to add another task bar :)
[21:32] <nperry> brobostigon: You not getting a deps fail?
[21:32] <nperry>   gnome-icon-theme-symbolic: Depends: gnome-icon-theme (< 2.92) but 3.0.0-0ubuntu1~build1 is installed.
[21:32] <ali1234> yeah, it's good
[21:32] <brobostigon> i would probeblt be much happier if app lists, and task bars, werent there, and a better way of prog/window/app management was invented.
[21:32] <brobostigon> nperry: nope,
[21:32] <nperry> making gnome-shell uninstallable
[21:32] <willy1977> nperry: I think it got broke a few days ago I've not been able to get it on yet... :s
[21:32] <brobostigon> nperry: i didnt have that here, i woulkd get holdof the ppa guys.
[21:33] <shauno> I just use expose for task switching.  adapts to dualhead nicely :)
[21:33] <willy1977> my understanding was they were aware of it, but yeah as brobostigon says get in touch again it can't hurt.
[21:33] <ali1234> i feel like the owner of two carefully organized desks, and then someone has come in and taken everything from both desks and piled it into a huge pile on one desk, and then said "i'm helping!" and then run off
[21:33] <nperry> brobostigon: I take it that'd be #ubuntu-desktop ?
[21:33] <willy1977> shauno: expose?
[21:33]  * willy1977 wanders off to google...
[21:34] <brobostigon> nperry: no idea, i havent had to, not a clue. sorry.
[21:34] <shauno> willy1977: the mac thing that swishes all the windows away into thumbnailed views
[21:34] <willy1977> oh yeah...
[21:34] <shauno> it was a pain until multitouch made it a twitch reaction
[21:35] <willy1977> that's kind of what win 7 can do...
[21:35] <brobostigon> nperry: maybe file a bug on their launchpad page.
[21:35] <HazRPG> ali1234: oh wow, this is amazing! Thanks for the tip :D
[21:35] <ali1234> i don't like expose... all my windows look the same when they are tiny
[21:35] <shauno> altho I found binding it to one of the junk keys right of the spacebar, made it very nifty on a laptop trackpad
[21:36] <ali1234> HazRPG: i no rite?
[21:36] <HazRPG> ali1234: ^^
[21:36] <HazRPG> ali1234: you've saved me so much heart ache!
[21:36] <willy1977> you can of course run expose on win 7 too :D
[21:37] <HazRPG> I always thought it just cloned everything over the two desktops
[21:37] <shauno> most likely.  I'm fairly sure I saw some semblance of it in ubuntu at one stage too.
[21:38] <shauno> ah.  compiz fusion called it 'scale' as a window management option
[21:39] <HazRPG> yeah I thought compiz did that :)
[21:40] <shauno> I tend to only use alt-tab if I have something fullscreened, because I can never really trust what they'll do with the multitouch otherwise
[21:41] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i think i would be happiest, with a workbench like gui, over multi-monitor, maybe, or a multi-monitor aware of haiku's app-server.
[21:42] <HazRPG> shauno: I use alt+tab for the same reason, except not because of touch-screen - mainly because I don't know how its going to handle the ESC key
[21:42] <HazRPG> multi-touch* rather
[21:42] <HazRPG> some apps with ESC out of full-screen and back to normal... some will just close
[21:43] <HazRPG> just like some apps accept CTRL+W as a close method
[21:43] <shauno> I think it's mostly because if I have something fullscreen, it's usually vmware or a photo app.  both of which will capture the multitouch & try to do something 'useful' with it
[21:43] <HazRPG> however some use both ESC and CTRL+W, some use neither - and that really confuses me
[21:44] <shauno> I have one app that'll only obey alt-f4.  that's insanely irritating.
[21:44] <HazRPG> oh yeah, that's another annoying one :/
[21:44]  * brobostigon goes to enjoy his beer, with some music, 
[21:44] <HazRPG> I keep forgetting alt+f4 is an actual thing
[21:45] <HazRPG> until some app throws it in as a monkey wrench to annoy me
[21:45] <shauno> that's it.  I'm on a mac.  it's not an actual thing :p
[21:45] <shauno> fn+alt+f4 does not feature in my muscle-memory
[21:46] <brobostigon> my big issue, is when windows force themselves on me, i have to get rid if it or them, to continue, i hate that.
[21:47] <shauno> I don't like apps that are allowed to bring themselves to focus.  that strikes me a real issue.  I could be typing passwords, credit card numbers, I want my keyboard focus where I put it.
[21:47] <directhex>  i agree
[21:47] <directhex> i hate it when i start my machine, start all my apps, start typping in irc and EVERY new app to start steals focus
[21:47] <directhex> it's a window manager issue, fwiw
[21:48] <shauno> or more likely, I could be finishing a sentence of drivel on irc, smack enter and agree to some dialog that was only on the screen for a split second
[21:48] <brobostigon> shauno: i want the choice, no a window blocking me, however, also sticking if its assential.
[21:48] <brobostigon> spot on.
[21:48] <shauno> it's it's genuinely important, it can come to front.  I need to see it.  it doesn't need to steal the keyboard too.  that raises the chances I'll smack enter and _not_ see it.
[21:49] <HazRPG> shauno: heh I hate it when dialogues do that too
[21:49] <HazRPG> dialogues should be banned as a thing
[21:49]  * willy1977 hates the dialog box thingy too... not sure they can be banned mind ;)
[21:49] <HazRPG> which is why I like chrome's take on it, by having them as tabs, or as a window inside a tab
[21:50] <shauno> that one's not just me being grumpy either.  you see $averageuser putting three-letter sentences into their chat client of choice, enter's every 4th key :)
[21:50] <HazRPG> willy1977: when I say banned, I mean they should be nicely integrated into the app somewhere as like a frame that pops up inside it and greys the rest out to show you that the app needs your interaction
[21:51] <brobostigon> this issue was one that was tried to be solved, first on the amiga, and then in classic macos, and then in BeOS and haiku.
[21:51] <directhex> shauno, it's the WM's fault. compiz allows it to happen, by default. not every WM has this behaviour
[21:52] <shauno> there's ways to solve it that just need common sense, not a complete rethink.  not stealing focus would be nice.  if you can't help it (or the WM decides for you), don't have a default option, so it's not dismissed unintentionally
[21:53] <brobostigon> BeOS's app server, wasnt very good at it, as it could be overriden, however haiku's is much better, and it needs to be explicit and definate to take focus.
[21:53] <brobostigon> nothing steals focus, expliccitly, unless, abolsutly made to.
[21:53] <HazRPG> shauno: I think by default keyboard shouldn't have focus taken away, and it should also not be allowed to be changed by an app - but an overall config that the user can define
[21:54] <shauno> this is one place I agree with gnome (and apple).  making things like that a user-defined policy is just admitting you couldn't get it right
[21:54]  * brobostigon shuts up now,
[21:55] <ali1234> bacon-message-connection.c - uh, ok then
[21:55] <willy1977> ah...
[21:55] <shauno> if you get it right, no-one notices it was ever a problem :)
[21:55] <HazRPG> e.g. keyboard always stays on focus of where it was left previous, and if you want to allow it to take focus away... this should be configurable manually, but forced by the way the application is coded
[21:55] <willy1977> messing with irssi for the first time so couldn't respond as I had the nickserv window "stuck" :)
[21:56] <HazRPG> willy1977: CTRL+n :)
[21:56] <HazRPG> willy1977: or CTRL+p
[21:56] <HazRPG> or even CTRL+<number>
[21:56] <brobostigon> alt + left-right arrow.
[21:56] <HazRPG> but I'm guessin you figured that
[21:56] <HazRPG> brobostigon: ooo, yeah that works too :)
[21:56] <brobostigon> HazRPG: :)
[21:57] <willy1977> nope did it by faffin with /window show x off meh... your shortcuts are better :p
[21:57] <HazRPG> slightly off current-topic... shauno: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w35UVc_MPDc (chiptune collection)
[21:58] <shauno> I gripe about this because itunes is doing it constantly to me atm, as I import thousands of tracks
[21:58] <brobostigon> HazRPG: amazing, thank you, you responded to something i said. i was talking bout the same as everyone else there for a while, and i was ignored.
[21:58] <shauno> i just have no opinion on how beos/haiku handle it because I've never tried them
[21:59]  * brobostigon hugs HazRPG 
[21:59] <HazRPG> brobostigon: nah, I think everyone was just getting into their own grump over things :P
[21:59] <brobostigon> shauno: where as, that the longest system, i have experience with.
[21:59] <HazRPG> I tend to go off on one (rant), and then get back to people once I've said my piece
[21:59] <brobostigon> HazRPG: good point. yes.
[21:59] <brobostigon> HazRPG: sorry,
[22:00] <HazRPG> brobostigon: I agree, amiga and beos did try and fix it
[22:00] <shauno> I don't recall the amiga ever throwing a modal at me from another app, but I rarely multitask in it
[22:00] <HazRPG> its just something people can't get use to though, when windows don't pop up people start to worry I think.
[22:00] <brobostigon> HazRPG: and more success than most, because of simple app-server/wm design.
[22:01] <shauno> I think some things do need to come to front and poke you in the eye.  I think it's also a very short list
[22:01] <shauno> it's a shame the notification bubbles on ubuntu are so .. wrong.  else they'd be a good option for everything else
[22:02] <HazRPG> shauno: heh, I'll leave my rant about that to myself, but I agree ubuntu's notifications are well and truly broken... and they don't seem to have any intention on fixing that :/
[22:02] <brobostigon> shauno: this is why i like the notifications in gnome-shell, because they dont block what you are doing, and or steal focus, unike in gnome2 sometimes.
[22:02] <shauno> if it's important enough to shove it in your face, it's important enough to follow-up on.  so why can't you click them to reach context?
[22:02] <willy1977> it's a cool discussion this with some great points - may have to download the archive because I'm off to bed... night all.
[22:03] <ali1234> because most of the things indicator is used for are not important at all
[22:03] <HazRPG> brobostigon: I think he was more referring to the fact that you can't click on notifications to see what it said, nor see a history about what was said with a simple click
[22:03] <ali1234> like social rubbish
[22:03] <KrimZon> has anyone here tried gnome 3 much?
[22:03] <ali1234> it's only there because everyone has to have a "social desktop" these days
[22:03] <HazRPG> (in  fact I don't think it actually logs notifications! - prove me wrong though if there's something I'm missing)
[22:04] <brobostigon> HazRPG: which you can in gnome-shell,
[22:04] <ali1234> you can in kde as well
[22:04] <brobostigon> KrimZon: alot. yes.
[22:04] <ali1234> kde notifications are a lot more powerful of course
[22:04] <ali1234> like everything in kde
[22:04] <KrimZon> how do I change the wireless password after having entered it wrong?
[22:04] <ali1234> but of course they look terrible, also like everything in kde
[22:04] <shauno> I don't believe the indicator ones are logged, no.  I had a lot of fun with that seeing if you could recover messages that were left from gnome-screensaver
[22:04] <brobostigon> KrimZon: change that in network manager.
[22:05] <brobostigon> KrimZon: via its applet.
[22:05] <shauno> I do use notifications for things like 'so and so has come online' tho.  they're useful.  if I click on them, it opens an IM session with so & so.
[22:05] <shauno> if I get "fred has mentioned you in #ubuntu-uk", and I click on it, it brings irc to front.  etc.
[22:05] <KrimZon> brobostigon: I don't see any way to
[22:06] <HazRPG> ali1234: that's one thing that puts me off kde... its terrible design choices (or rather visual design choices) - the extra power it gives is amazing however
[22:06] <shauno> if a message has no context worth clicking thru to, it's most likely not a message that's worth seeing.
[22:06] <brobostigon> KrimZon: right click on applet, and edit conenctions.
[22:06] <ali1234> HazRPG: a lot of it isn't choices but abstention from choices
[22:06] <HazRPG> if both the KDE group and Gnome group were to bump heads together, I'm sure it would be a fantastic piece of work (if they picked the best of both worlds)
[22:06] <ali1234> HazRPG: the rest is just pure bugs
[22:06] <matti> ;]
[22:06] <KrimZon> oh, I get the same as left click when right clicking the applet
[22:07] <shauno> HazRPG: in the real world, when kde & gnome bump heads, someone loses teeth :)
[22:07] <jacobw> kde > gnome
[22:07] <shauno> or worse .. they create freedesktop.org
[22:07] <ali1234> HazRPG: for example, KDE lets you change almost any font anywhere in the UI, but if you do, then text won't align properly on widgets, because their theming engine is broken
[22:07] <brobostigon> KrimZon: yesterdays updates, should put that behaviour back to normal, form the gnome3-teams ppa.
[22:07] <ali1234> so KDE only looks "good" with default fonts
[22:08] <ali1234> and only in the default sizes too
[22:08] <brobostigon> KrimZon: or just use the network editor in gnome-control-panel.
[22:08] <HazRPG> shauno: I agree, that was one thing I liked in windows too... with notifications - however most notifications in windows were application specific, the ones built into windows were ... well if you'd seen one, it usually meant some bad had happened
[22:08] <jacobw> its far more functional though, plasma can adapt itself or be adapted to most preferences
[22:09]  * jacobw is a kde fan
[22:09] <ali1234> jacobw: really? how do i change the colour of my taskbar to match the windows then?
[22:09] <KrimZon> there's a thing in the control panel to edit networks, but the options button is greyed out
[22:10] <brobostigon> KrimZon: it should have an unlock option.
[22:10] <shauno> I can't stand notifications in windows.  they only ever tell me I've plugged something in (repeatedly, excitedly, as windows slowly figures out what just happened).  or they're reminding me there's icons on my desktop.
[22:10] <ali1234> jacobw: my standard challenge to all who say that KDE can be configured to do whatever you want: make KDE4 look identical to ubuntu desktop with human theme
[22:10] <brobostigon> KrimZon: i wouldnt try to run gnome-control-panel as root.
[22:11] <KrimZon> it's a livecd
[22:11]  * jacobw quietly mutters "why would you want to.."
[22:11] <brobostigon> KrimZon: fedora?
[22:11] <KrimZon> suse
[22:11] <brobostigon> KrimZon: no idea, sorry.
[22:11] <ali1234> jacobw: to prove that what KDE developers claim is actually true
[22:12] <ali1234> jacobw: here is a screenshot you can work from: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/clean_install.png
[22:12] <shauno> I can't really say much about kde, I haven't used it since 2.x
[22:12] <dwatkins> wow, the beep got removed from Ubuntu and won't re-enable, that
[22:12] <dwatkins> that's kinda interesting
[22:12] <HazRPG> shauno: I hated the "OUT OF MEMORY" notifications, because usually when that popped up... windows spazzed out no end >_<
[22:13] <shauno> well, that's shooting the messenger.  that's the rare case of windows telling you something you should probably know (if it's reached the point it can't handle it itself)
[22:13] <ali1234> jacobw: here's another with some windows: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/Screenshot-7.png
[22:14] <shauno> in general tho, it shouldnt' be telling me that I can use the device I just plugged in.  that should be expected, and it should tell me if there's a good reason I can't
[22:15] <HazRPG> shauno: yeah I agree... however point out the obvious is daft, it would be much more efficient to notify when /before/ I ran out
[22:15] <shauno> not sure about that.  before it runs out, it should be dealing with it.  memory management is not a user's task.
[22:16] <dwatkins> I have enough trouble finding my keys some days.
[22:16] <shauno> if/when it can't get that right, then it's polite to offer an apology before it falls over and dies.
[22:18] <shauno> the victorians would have said "little girls should be seen and not heard".  100 years later, I apply the same to my computer :)
[22:19] <brobostigon> shauno: i like that analogy.
[22:19] <dwatkins> Isn't that what piping to /dev/null is for? ;)
[22:19] <shauno> I've no doubt in another 100 years, computers will slap me for saying it too
[22:19] <brobostigon> dwatkins: or not stealing focus, yes.
[22:20]  * jacobw is imagining being slapped by a computer
[22:20] <shauno> it'll happen, one day.
[22:21] <shauno> probably when you mention it's getting a bit sluggish and could use an upgrade.
[22:21] <jacobw> lol
[22:21] <brobostigon> shauno: and you try and optimise it,
[22:23] <HazRPG> xD
[22:25] <shauno> I'm a mac owner.  I don't optimize.  I buy something prettier :D
[22:25] <brobostigon> it seems sometimes, my computer, has PD like me, and has weird xtraordinery moods.
[22:25] <brobostigon> shauno: lol.
[22:25] <shauno> seriously, I'm almost ashamed of how my last laptop ended up
[22:26] <shauno> it used to take 14 screws to open it up.  2 of them are still there.
[22:26] <brobostigon> shauno: my last laptop, my thinkpad, is lieing under my desk, still working, last time i fired it up.
[22:26] <shauno> my laptop will actually disassemble itself in a good crosswind
[22:27] <brobostigon> lol
[22:27] <KrimZon> I was just thinking of reviving my old latitude cs 400 today
[22:27] <shauno> oh it still works.  it's my minecraft server atm :)
[22:27] <brobostigon> shauno: :)
[22:27] <shauno> it's just a bit less portable, and a bit more ugly than it was 4 years ago
[22:28] <shauno> I broke too many wee plastic tabs converting it to dvorak, so certain keys fly off if you type too fast.  or type a sentence that contains too many R's
[22:28] <brobostigon> lol.
[22:28] <brobostigon> again*
[22:29] <shauno> it's going to find a second life tho.  mostly because I'd be ashamed to take money off someone for it.
[22:30] <HazRPG> heh
[22:30] <shauno> between that, a bunch of buttons I bought off dealextreme, and an oversized dell crt that's so it's beige, I think the only thing between me and a mame cabinet is laziness
[22:30] <HazRPG> for a second there I thought you meant you were going to play "second life" on it xD
[22:30] <shauno> *so old it's beige
[22:30] <shauno> HazRPG: no.  I refuse to sink any lower than Wow
[22:31] <HazRPG> shauno: heh
[22:31] <HazRPG> now I feel like a dunce
[22:31] <HazRPG> I played that, mainly in sandbox areas making random items - if anything I should have just learned to use blender better and would have had the same experience
[22:32] <brobostigon> my dad just didnt get, when in joke, i called milton keynes a suburb of bletchley park.
[22:32] <brobostigon> when the joke*
[22:32] <HazRPG> to me second life was just IRC where you could make 3D objects and show off without having to take screenshots
[22:33] <directhex> second life is evil.
[22:33] <HazRPG> doesn't milton keynes have a concrete cow?
[22:33] <shauno> I tried SL.  It seemed like IRC, where everyone has fur, and ungentlemanly intentions towards you.
[22:33] <brobostigon> was that not funny,?
[22:33] <directhex> SL is a horse sex simulator.
[22:33] <KrimZon> I heard it has one pub
[22:33]  * HazRPG recalls passing a concrete cow in my cow when I was in that general area
[22:33] <shauno> directhex: that's the one
[22:33] <brobostigon> ohwell.
[22:34] <HazRPG> shauno: heh where did you hang out?
[22:34] <HazRPG> shauno: I barely ever saw anyone to talk to, but I mainly hung out in sandboxes like I said
[22:35] <HazRPG> every once in a while I would wander to the competition area of the sandbox, and see what people were creating within 30 minutes (timed competition)
[22:36] <brobostigon> ok, thank you for pointing it out, i am not funny and cannot make a joke. it dont bother me anymore. i can try none-the-less.
[22:36] <shauno> HazRPG: I didn't :)
[22:36] <HazRPG> also script islands, to talk with other scripters to see how things were made
[22:36] <shauno> I did SL roman style.  I came, I saw, I ran away and left it to the germans.
[22:37] <shauno> veni, vidi, visigoths!
[22:37] <HazRPG> brobostigon: I didn't get it, but that's because I don't really know milton keynes nor know what bletchley park is
[22:37] <HazRPG> hard to laugh at something I can't relate to
[22:38] <directhex> HazRPG, bletchley park is where a gay, some poles, and some secretaries won world war 2
[22:38] <HazRPG> if you said something like "It was heart warm... I'm a man, you're a man... we're both men!"
[22:38] <shauno> all I know about milton keynes is that OU is there.
[22:38] <shauno> directhex: that sounds like a helluva night out
[22:38] <brobostigon> HazRPG: milton keynes exanded around bletchley park inthe housing boom, and colosus, alan turing's machine, was designed ansd built in bletchley.
[22:38] <brobostigon> expanded*
[22:39] <HazRPG> heh, ok I think I get it now then :P
[22:39] <directhex> HazRPG, the enigma code, germany's secret cipher, was cracked there
[22:39] <HazRPG> shauno: xD
[22:39] <brobostigon> the predeccessor to ghcq was founded there.
[22:39] <brobostigon> gchq*
[22:40] <shauno> short version: the nerd's version of the battle of britain
[22:40] <dwatkins> I've been to Bletchley, I look forward to going back again for another tour.
[22:40] <brobostigon> dwatkins: i want to make a peper tape for  collosus,
[22:41] <brobostigon> dwatkins: and learn how to.
[22:41] <dwatkins> brobostigon: nice, they seem to have rebuilt it from scratch from a few photographs and people's memories
[22:41] <brobostigon> dwatkins: yes, i haveseen it, a few times.
[22:44] <brobostigon> dwatkins: it is truly amazing,
[22:45] <dwatkins> brobostigon: yeah, especially considering the available technology at the time
[22:45] <brobostigon> dwatkins: and what they have available now to rebuild it, aswell.
[22:46] <dwatkins> brobostigon: yeah, it's unbelievable they don't have a better budget.
[22:46] <ali1234> jacobw: time to play spot the difference: http://imagebin.org/146930
[22:47] <ali1234> it took me about two days to set all that up
[22:47] <jacobw> ali1234: no custom menu bar :o
[22:47] <brobostigon> dwatkins: yes, very true.
[22:47] <ali1234> and several bugs were exposed at the same time
[22:47] <dwatkins> ali1234: nice font, too
[22:47] <ali1234> like eg if i set the font to 11 pt instead of 10.8 pt, there is no visible difference between bold and normal
[22:47] <jacobw> developers must love you :D
[22:47] <ali1234> also text is not correctly vertical aligned
[22:47] <ali1234> it's too near the bottom on window titles and also the task bar
[22:48] <HazRPG> ali1234: urgh, that looks like kde >_<
[22:48] <ali1234> HazRPG: yeah, all the bad KDE-isms are still present
[22:48] <ali1234> also notice the lol-huge font on the clock
[22:48] <ali1234> you can't change that
[22:48] <ali1234> and you can't make the panel match the windows
[22:48] <HazRPG> ali1234: that was the first thing I noticed
[22:48] <ali1234> also the window docorations are not round enough
[22:49] <ali1234> but this was as close as i could get
[22:49] <ali1234> there are no plasma themes that don't have ugly gradients on them
[22:49] <ali1234> this was the best one i could find
[22:51] <ali1234> so the moral of the story, you can spend days configuring KDE, unfortunately it doesn't have an option to turn off the bugs, so it will always suck
[22:51] <ali1234> gnome otoh is broken by design :)
[22:52] <jacobw> does any software have an option to turn off the bugs :p
[22:52] <ali1234> i dunno, but i've been complaining about misaligned fonts in KDE for about 10 years and it never gets any better
[22:53] <dwatkins> Gnome and KDE are both very complex, you can't expect them to work perfectly all the time.
[22:53] <dwatkins> ali1234: have you logged bugs about it?
[22:53] <ali1234> no
[22:53] <shauno> I never expected kde to work :/  it always seemed to be ugly by default, and provided a vast array of options to make it worse.  (again, I haven't seen it since kde2 ..)
[22:53] <ali1234> i wouldn't even know where to start
[22:53] <ali1234> i just stopped using KDE
[22:54] <dwatkins> I agree it can be very annoying when things don't work right.
[22:54] <ali1234> the general uglyness of KDE is why i switched to gnome
[22:54] <ali1234> they might make bad decisions, but it's better than no decisions at all
[22:54] <dwatkins> I switch to tinymc as a window border straight away, I don't like how big the borders in Gnome are
[22:55] <dwatkins> sorry 'ThinMC'
[22:55] <jacobw> i think worrying about uglyness misses the point of whether something is fit for purpose
[22:55] <ali1234> they are both fit for purpose
[22:56] <dwatkins> only by providing feedback to the developers can we improve them
[22:56] <ali1234> oh i provided plenty of feedback :)
[22:56] <jacobw> what do you think of unity ali1234
[22:56] <dwatkins> whereabouts, ali1234?
[22:56]  * jacobw realises that might be 'big question'
[22:57] <ali1234> unity would be nice on a tablet, if it wasn't for the way it hides things until you mouse over them, which is impossible on a tablet. worthless for a desktop system
[22:58] <ali1234> i don't need massive buttons that fill 1/4 of the screen when i'm using a keyboard + mouse
[22:58] <ali1234> on a touchscreen it works
[22:58] <ali1234> i particularly dislike the new startmenu though, especially the "recommended apps" part
[22:59] <jacobw> i don't think the redundacy with 'internet apps' 'media apps' 'other apps'
[22:59] <ali1234> overall i rate unity: not as good as hildon
[22:59] <jacobw> hildon?
[22:59] <dwatkins> I like fluxbox.
[22:59] <ali1234> yes, hildon
[23:00] <dwatkins> I still can't believe my little Eee 901 does wobbly windows.
[23:00] <ali1234> jacobw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBmfqQrsFg
[23:01] <dwatkins> It's clearly time for the desktop cube...
[23:01] <jacobw> is that maemo?
[23:01] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG40LvV9A4&NR=1
[23:02] <ali1234> yeah hildon was developed for maemo
[23:02] <ali1234> maemo was always a tablet OS though, not a phone OS
[23:02] <directhex> yay, hildon
[23:03] <shauno> has anyone been watching the hms ark royal series on discovery?
[23:03] <ali1234> and hildon is still the best working tablet UX... probably the *only* working one currently
[23:04] <ali1234> so i don't see where unity fits in... it *looks* like a tablet UX with huge buttons and simplified app switching, yet it has things like menu hiding that absolutely won't work on a tablet
[23:04] <ali1234> otoh on a desktop system unity looks comically huge
[23:04] <ali1234> and the cut down methods just annoy
[23:04] <directhex> ali1234, i think webos will fit perfectly on a tablet
[23:05] <ali1234> ah webos... never tried it
[23:05] <ali1234> but i was talking about open source things
[23:05] <jacobw> well, i'm agnostic about unity, but i can see myself being able install unity on a novice users pc and say "just click on the application you want from the bar on the left"
[23:06] <ali1234> people aren't as dumb as you think
[23:06] <ali1234> if they can handle windows 7 then you bet they can handle classic gnome too
[23:06] <ali1234> if they claim they can't, then they are going to "fail" at using any OS except the one they actually wanted
[23:06] <HazRPG> how can they have a film called "source code" and not be able geeks?
[23:07] <HazRPG> s/able/about
[23:07] <directhex> HazRPG, i immediately assume that film will be terrible. the reviews say otherwise
[23:08] <HazRPG> its about some dude that "mind jacks" (to use the terms a recent game calls it) into a past life of someone else...
[23:08] <ali1234> it has nothing to do with source code... it's an homage to quantum leap.... meant to be quite good
[23:09] <ali1234> even has cameo by scott bakula
[23:09] <HazRPG> seems like just another phone booth, except their budget stretches to being able to get a hold of a moving train :/
[23:11] <dwatkins> HazRPG: I wondered what that film was about, thanks for saving me the time to look into its 'plot'
[23:12] <HazRPG> dwatkins: haven't seen it yet, other than trailers, but that's the gist I get... its about bombs, a guy being able to "mind jack" into some dude on a train... and he has 8 mins for each "mind jack" to stop the bomb...
[23:13] <HazRPG> it just seems like it's a film that's going to loop that way
[23:13] <HazRPG> its ground hog day all over again, except with bombs xD
[23:13] <dwatkins> Yeah, reminds me of the awful remake of Wargames which almost made me cry.
[23:13] <jacobw> i quickly get fustrated with impossible uses of tech etc in films
[23:13] <dwatkins> Agreed, jacobw.
[23:14] <ali1234> it's fine if it's just a plot device
[23:14] <HazRPG> I thought die hard did a good job
[23:14] <ali1234> which this blatantly is
[23:14] <dwatkins> I find it difficult to watch any sci-fi with transporters, sometimes.
[23:14] <HazRPG> loved how linux was plastered all over that :D
[23:14] <ali1234> dwatkins: the fly?
[23:14] <dwatkins> ali1234: yeah, although the transporter in star trek was to save money initially ;)
[23:14] <dwatkins> ali1234: that's not so bad
[23:14] <ali1234> (the jeff goldblum remake)
[23:14] <ali1234> remakes aren't always bad
[23:15] <HazRPG> two words... "help meeeeeeeeee"
[23:15] <ali1234> the sequels to it though... that's another story
[23:15] <shauno> I think the good ones are rarities :/
[23:15] <ali1234> of course
[23:16] <HazRPG> I recall the fly concepts showed up in teenage mutant ninja turtles (if someone corrects me with hero... I'll flip!)
[23:16] <shauno> that said.  and I'll get tarred and feathered for this one.  I really liked the scifi channel's version of dune.  better than the lynch one.
[23:16] <ali1234> shauno: they both had their good and bad points
[23:16] <HazRPG> *picks up mag he bought earlier today*
[23:17] <HazRPG> "Broadband Meltdown"
[23:17] <ali1234> but neither is as good as the books
[23:17] <HazRPG> that's the headline, I wonder what this is going to say (feels like he's missed something, reason for buying this too)
[23:17] <shauno> I think the scifi channel tried harder to stay faithful
[23:17] <ali1234> yeah
[23:17] <ali1234> but the characters in the lynch version are way more memorable
[23:18] <ali1234> everyone in the scifi version looks the same
[23:18] <shauno> difficult to emulate the books when so much of it's internal.  but they made a pretty solid effort.  especially considering it's the scifi channel.
[23:18] <shauno> about the last good thing I remember them doing before they .. whatever they're doing.
[23:18] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVqXE9ZY5wk vs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrG4g6yNLJU
[23:21] <shauno> that just makes the scifi one look cheap :)
[23:22] <ali1234> to be fair they both look pretty crappy by today's standards
[23:22] <shauno> lynch undoubtably did holywood better.  but I think scifi did the story better
[23:23] <ali1234> yes totally
[23:23] <ali1234> the main problem i had with scifi is everyone looks like a generic 20-something actor
[23:24] <ali1234> i got really confused cos i couldn't remember who was who
[23:25] <hamitron> broadband meltdown? :(
[23:25] <hamitron> damn this warm weather
[23:32] <hamitron> I wish windows 7 had a virtual desktop option like wine does :/
[23:33] <hamitron> then could run old games alongside other stuff :)
[23:34] <awilkins> /me is still on Vista
[23:34] <brobostigon> hamitron: cant you? i thought MS put alot of affort into backward compatibility.
[23:34] <hamitron> I can't see an option...
[23:35] <brobostigon> hamitron: i wouldnt know, i havent used windows after 2000, and then longhorn.
[23:35] <awilkins> What about VirtualBox? It allegedly has 3D suppot
[23:36] <awilkins> Might be good enough for older games
[23:36] <hamitron> pffffffffft to vm "3d" is all I have to say ;/
[23:36] <hamitron> only have 1 retail license also, and that is my host OS
[23:37] <brobostigon> nos da everyone , sleep well.
[23:38] <awilkins> I only have Windows for games now...
[23:38] <awilkins> If only I could become enlightened and adopt purer pursuits.
[23:39] <jacobw> minecraft is a purer pursuit :p
[23:39] <hamitron> yeh, that is my me also awilkins
[23:39] <hamitron> :)
[23:39] <awilkins> I have the box set of "The Art of Computer Programming" coming soon. That should keep me busy.
[23:40] <hamitron> I am reading up on the skills required for making games....
[23:40] <hamitron> but I need entertainment still
[23:40] <jacobw> maths and maths and more maths as far as i can tell :p
[23:40] <hamitron> I like maths
[23:40] <hamitron> ;/
[23:40] <awilkins> Trig, matrices
[23:41] <hamitron> still torn between C and C++
[23:41] <hamitron> if to bother using SDL
[23:41] <jacobw> i do like maths, but i don't know as much as i should
[23:41] <awilkins> I think games tend to be C++ these days, but I know nothing.
[23:42] <jacobw> my knowledge is gleaned from reading about how andrew wiles solved fermats last theorum :|
[23:42] <hamitron> most are C++, yeh
[23:42] <hamitron> but I am familiar with C
[23:42] <hamitron> ;)
[23:42] <directhex> c is smelly
[23:42] <directhex> like bums
[23:42] <awilkins> And my C is very rusty (never really progressed past fooling with Amiga compilers)
[23:42] <directhex> bums that are smelly
[23:42] <hamitron> haha dh
[23:42] <directhex> not clean bums, obviously
[23:43] <hamitron> I could start coding something now, if I was to use C
[23:43] <hamitron> but I am thinking it would be better in the long run to learn C++ first
[23:43]  * jacobw makes a joke about introspection
[23:43] <directhex> c, like c++, has a specific use case. if you write gui code in c or c++, you're doing it wrong.
[23:43] <hamitron> then use fun projects to practice C++
[23:44] <awilkins> Yeah, no wonder wht all those game guys do is write a Lua engine and then write their game logic in Lua
[23:45] <directhex> or python, or c#
[23:45] <directhex> or something home-made
[23:45] <hamitron> or tcl
[23:45] <directhex> but yes, it's a good example. graphics backend in c(++), anything user-centric in a higher-level language the designers can write in
[23:46] <awilkins> Did anything come of that game where you could send units back to the past?
[23:46] <directhex> hamitron, i've never seen a game with tcl in it
[23:46] <awilkins> And they could fight alongside themselves?
[23:46] <directhex> awilkins, i've only seen that in puzzle games
[23:46] <hamitron> directhex: I think one of my books uses it for the scripting part
[23:46] <awilkins> this was an RTS
[23:47] <awilkins> Forgotten it's name.
[23:47] <hamitron> it does :D
[23:47] <ali1234> wasn't that red alert 2?
[23:47] <hamitron> "Programming Linux Games" by John R. Hall
[23:48] <directhex> maddog?
[23:48] <awilkins> That was just an effect that made a unit immune to damage for a while - this is a full on proper time-travel RTS with timelines and butterfly effect
[23:49] <jacobw> time travelling RTS :o
[23:49] <hamitron> I recall something about that
[23:49] <jacobw> ordinary RTS fry my brain enough
[23:50] <awilkins> Achron
[23:50] <ali1234> so is there any good rts game on linux?
[23:51] <ali1234> maybe a mod for spring with sensible graphics?
[23:51] <hamitron> something 2100
[23:51] <awilkins> There's a port of Earth 2100
[23:51] <ali1234> played that one
[23:51] <jacobw> running linux is an rts game in itself :p
[23:51] <directhex> the new oil rig thing?
[23:51] <hamitron> haha
[23:51] <ali1234> it's called warzone 2100
[23:52] <hamitron> yeh warzone, it worth playing?
[23:52] <ali1234> it's too complicated
[23:52] <andylockran> hey guys
[23:52] <hamitron> I heard similar from others
[23:52] <hamitron> :/
[23:52] <jacobw> i think i remember playing warzone 2100 on the ps1?
[23:52] <andylockran> I've installed an entropykey and have ekeyd listening on external ip port 888
[23:52] <andylockran> 8888
[23:52] <ali1234> yeah it was commercial, went open source
[23:52] <jacobw> cool :)
[23:53] <ali1234> i like RTS games where i can implicitly understand the units
[23:53] <andylockran> I want to connect an egd daemon to it - but when I do (egd-linux) it doesn't seem to populate the kernel entropy pool in teh same was that ekeyd does when set to kernel mode
[23:53] <hamitron> I really want Enemy Nations to be ported now the source is open, but not sure about the license :/
[23:53] <directhex> andylockran, several simtec people in #debian-uk
[23:53] <ali1234> so basically have it set in the real world
[23:54] <jacobw> its quite exciting actually that this game i used to play is now open source
[23:54] <ali1234> it certainly runs well
[23:54] <directhex> jacobw, quake 3?
[23:54] <ali1234> i just don't like it as a game
[23:55] <jacobw> that's another one i guess
[23:55] <andylockran> directhex: thanks
[23:55] <hamitron> I've heard warzone 2100 is overly complicated, so if you play online you get whooped by people who know it too well :/
[23:55] <jacobw> i was talking about this warzone 2100 though
[23:55] <andylockran> directhex: which irc server?
[23:55] <andylockran> ping merriam_
[23:55] <directhex> oftc
[23:56] <andylockran> Mez
[23:57] <awilkins> This achron game is selling pre order betas - and supports Linux (amd64) - ooooo.
[23:58] <awilkins> May have discovered what to do with my remaining leave....
[23:59] <hamitron> only 64 bit?