rlameiroailo: I am sure that is possible:D i dont know enough about it, but i am sure that already exists00:00
rlameirolike some default policies for creating userd00:00
ailorlameiro, Right. Should not be too hard to add.00:00
ronjback, wow there is a lot to read :P00:02
ScottLi just had an idea...00:03
ScottLit wouldn't be hard to build another version of ubuntu studio with crap loads of things that ubuntu doesn't let us have00:04
ScottLafter the official iso is released we could rebuild the image (outside of the official buildd system) with the additional apps or drivers or whatnot00:04
rlameiroScottL: I like you more and more every time you talk :D00:04
ScottLdick macinnis already wants to make a live version of natty after it is released00:05
ScottLrlameiro, i already liked you :)00:05
rlameiroScottL: me to, but now even more!!!!00:05
ScottLand keep in mind we are already looking at moving towards a live install in the very near future00:05
ScottLlol rlameiro :)00:05
* ScottL is going outside with the kids and dogs for a bit00:05
* ronj will be pleased to be the witness at ScottL and rlameiro union00:06
rlameiroronj: well, i would love to ply with ScottL some day. 00:06
rlameiroat least when i have money to go to the US00:06
rlameiroMaybe making 2 songs for the RPM00:07
rlameiroUbuntu Studio 11.04 BETA 1 First Look Review Overview 00:12
ScottLrlameiro, you still around?01:51
ScottLi did some more organizing to the tutorial video webpage01:51
ScottLkeep in mind not all of these are going to have video tutorials01:52
ScottLbut they will probably have some sort of documentation01:52
ScottLmy thoughts were that the (very rough) outline would be...01:52
ScottL1. introduction01:52
ScottL2. installation01:52
ScottL3. simple tasks (audio/visual/graphical)01:52
ScottL4. advanced tasks (a/v/g)01:53
ScottLi will need yours and ailo and anyone else's assistance to help decide what needs to be in #3 and #401:53
ScottLi'm not asking everyone to actually do the documentation at this point, just help decide which tasks should be in #3 and #401:53
ScottLonce we have the framework then we can worry about who will help create the documentation and who is best suited to do what01:54
holsteinScottL: i really like that outline structure by the way01:56
ScottLholstein, thanks :)01:56
ScottLi feel pretty good about it as well, i really did try to frame things in a way that it was a narrative of me telling a friend that doesn't use ubuntu but is a musician01:58
ScottLi felt that this would be a good approach to informing and enticing another musician who isn't familiar with ubuntu to use ubuntu studio01:58
ScottLand hopefully give them enough background to help them navigate into linux01:58
ScottLi think there is another major consideration we face right now though01:59
holsteinXFCE ?01:59
ScottLlol, well, there is that one too :)02:00
ScottLbut i meant within the documentation bailiwick02:00
holsteinyeah, i hear you02:00
ScottLwhether we want to put the documentation on the canonical wiki or on the new website02:00
holsteini think we should try and make sure its mirrored at least02:00
holsteinlike, documentation on the site links directly to canonical02:01
holsteinor vice-versa02:01
holsteinsucks when its fragmented02:01
holsteinand the wikis can be a pain in the ass02:01
ScottLbut where would the actual content be located?  website or wiki02:01
holstein*not just in an ubuntustudio sense02:01
holsteinall the wikis in general02:01
holsteinchallenging to maintain02:01
holsteinScottL: what do you think?02:02
holsteinim leaning towards site02:02
holsteinjust for control02:02
ScottLi wanted to ask kokito to see if the content on the wiki could be read off the wiki and presented on the website02:02
holsteinthat would be nice02:02
holsteinone edit point is a win02:02
holsteinand plenty to keep up with in our state02:03
ScottLbut it may not format well with such formating as headers   = This is the Title =02:03
ScottLi don't think the equals sign would work well on the drupal website02:03
holsteini feel like we have a good team developing02:03
ScottLi think there are several benefits to hosting the documentation on the website02:03
holsteinif we can plan and try and be as future-proof as possible02:03
ScottLgood point02:04
holsteinwe actually have a lot of relevant documentation though02:04
holsteinif anything, we have too much documentation id say02:04
holsteinsome of the stuff is not needed anymore02:04
holsteinwhich is good02:05
ScottLtrue, some needs to deprecated (which i've done a bit)02:05
holsteini mean, ideally02:05
holsteinits all videos02:05
holsteinabout how to use the software02:05
holsteinfun, hands-on stuff :)02:05
holsteinkernel just works02:05
ScottLbut yes, a lot of it is good for archiving to understand what used to be necessary02:05
holsteinJACK'll usually just work02:05
holsteinthat'll be nice02:05
holsteinand i think we are acutally close to that02:05
holsteinthanks to the awesome upstream trickle down02:05
ScottLhosting on the website gives us a better looking format (i really still don't like the wiki's formatting)02:06
ScottLwe have more control over the content, both in scope and format02:06
holsteinScottL: to be honest, the wikis are a drag02:06
holsteintotally needed and necessary02:06
holsteinand i get it02:06
holsteinbut still...02:06
ScottLit will be in a single source for people to search on the internet, the place where they google "ubuntu studio" will also be where all the information is02:06
holsteinScottL: i think a really clear forum is going to be key02:07
ScottLwe can actually delete pages from the website :P  not like the wiki02:07
holsteinScottL: and when people go to help, are they dumped into #ubuntu?02:07
holsteincould we change that?02:07
ScottLi'm not sure what you mean by that02:07
holsteinto dump them in both #ubuntu and #ubuntustudio ?02:07
ScottLdo you mean on IRC?02:07
holsteinyeah, maybe thats not happening anymore02:08
holsteinive been using irssi for a couple releases now02:08
holsteinused to be you'd lauch pidgin or whatever02:08
ScottLno, i think when xchat is installed it defaults to #ubuntu for the ubuntu-severs02:08
holsteinand be dumped in #ubuntu by default02:08
ScottLbut i have faith we can fix that02:08
holsteinsomething for the back burner02:09
ScottLi have been aggregating a list of things that would be nice to fix and maybe we can for ocelot02:09
* ScottL dislikes the new code name for natty+1, too damn hard to spell and type02:09
ScottLbut hosting on the wiki has advantages as well02:09
holsteinim looking forward to proud paciderm02:09
holsteinor whatever02:09
ScottLanyone with launchpad account can add or edit content on the wiki02:10
ScottLwe dont' have to worry about the site itself as far as security, others do that02:10
ScottLwe don't have to worry about attacks to the site (like DDos), others do that02:10
ScottLholstein, keep in mind that formating wiki will probably be as difficult as formating in drupal :P02:11
holsteinthats true02:11
ScottLhosting docs on the website means that we would need to really get people accounts, we would be spending time managing the website way more then02:12
holsteinScottL: this is the time to think about it02:12
ScottLi can help you holstein with wiki formatting, there are only a few things to have to remember02:12
holsteinwe could just link offically to the wiki's02:12
holsteini usually just hit edit02:13
holsteinon some other page02:13
holsteinand steal what formatting i need :)02:13
ScottLholstein, there are some of things i thought about to help users (stochastic even suggested one as well)02:13
ScottLholstein, that's where i learned a lot of what i know....and playing around a bit02:15
ScottLbut usually i dump all the information in first then come back and edit the formatting quite a bit to get it right02:15
holsteinyeah, thats shaping up nicely :)02:17
holsteinim trying to remember what was challenging for me02:17
holsteinother than just getting the firewire device working back then02:17
ScottLit would cool to have a title screen like this for the ubuntu studio tutorials02:20
holsteinno flash :)02:21
ScottLi don't think that is flash is it?02:22
ScottLi thought they did .ogv :/02:22
holsteinno, i mean, it doesnt require flash 02:23
holsteinin a good way 02:23
holsteinand i like it02:23
ScottLoh, you were saying for *us* to not use flash02:23
holsteinyeah, just like they did02:23
holsteinits just playing in chromium like a champ02:24
holsteini like that02:24
holsteintheres still not a lot of content up like that yet though02:24
ScottLit plays well with firefox as well, especially the latest update or firefox402:26
ScottLginger coons (of libre graphics magazine) made a comment about ubuntu staff vs. others like fedora02:26
ScottLshe didn't like some of the politics because ubuntu staff doesnt' walk the walk, they use proprietary apps02:27
ScottLwhile fedora uses open source stuff02:27
holsteini do like to try and keep an open house02:27
ScottLi want to roll like fedora and screencasters02:27
ScottLyeah, i plan to use either .ogv or .webm02:27
ScottLhtml 5, baby!02:27
holsteinit works *so* well too02:27
holsteini mean, sometimes i compromise to be open02:28
ScottLyeah :/02:28
holsteini dont feel like that is a compromise in quality really02:28
ScottLand sometimes there isn't a viable open source alternative as well02:28
=== jussi01 is now known as Guest43108
holsteinits way better all the time though02:28
ScottLoh yeah, i don't feel that either .ogv or .webm is comprimising too be honest02:28
ScottLi * think * .ogv is better than some formats like .avi or .mpeg02:29
ScottLwell not .avi i guess, since i believe it's a container rather than a codec02:29
ScottLvideo is all really, really confusing02:29
holsteincan be02:29
ScottLyou can have a .mpeg container with the .mpeg coded (i believe) but also...02:29
holsteinlots of different formats02:29
holsteinand containers02:29
holsteinand crap02:29
ScottLa .mpeg container with a h.264 codec02:29
ScottLbut i'll shoot for either .ogv or .webm though02:30
ScottLthe trouble i'm having right now is that i'm running svn blender ( under lucid02:30
ScottLwhich doesn't have the fancy ffmpeg with webm enabled :(02:31
holsteinim getting that feeling that i should move on from lucid02:31
ScottLBUT the new blender is AWESOME!02:31
rlameiroScottL: here now02:31
ScottLyeah, me too, i probably will with natty...there are so many updates compared to lucid02:31
ScottLrlameiro, oh good ;)  did you read what i said?02:31
holsteinim going to try and wait it out02:31
rlameiroI Like it02:31
holsteinits so stable now02:31
holstein*my system02:31
rlameirojust readed it02:31
ScottLrlameiro, any thoughts, comments, corrections, suggestions, lottery numbers?02:32
ScottLholstein, good point, i do have the -rt kernel on it02:32
ScottLand it runs good02:32
holsteinthats a good kernel02:33
rlameiroScottL: nope, now is just crete content :D02:33
holsteinim using the newer abogani/falk one02:33
ScottLbut if i want to do the video i need to have a proper setup, of course i can dedicate a machine to it running natty and keep it away from development02:33
rlameiroone thing.... what kind of acees and space does ubuntustudio have?02:34
rlameirofor the webpage that is02:34
ScottLrlameiro, well, i would like to flesh out more of the tasks we would like to document,  like "setting up jack", "recording audio in ardour" type things02:34
ScottLand decide if they are "simple" or "advanced"02:34
rlameiroScottL: that was the idea :D02:34
ScottL"acees and space"?02:34
rlameiroaccess and space to webserver...02:35
rlameirofor the webpage02:35
ScottLwell, that's a funny situation02:35
rlameirois it possible to have another mysql db?02:35
rlameiroor how does it work?02:35
rlameirowho owns the domain?02:35
ScottLto make it a short explanation i would expect us to move to our own hosting02:35
ScottLthat's not definitive, but if things continue the way they have i would expect it to be the best move02:36
ScottLthis is the way i think it currently works02:36
ScottLthe website formatting (the drupal) part is contained in a bzr branch02:36
ScottLcanonical inspects changes to this and uploads it to the webserver (at their leisure i believe)02:37
ScottLnot to imply that it takes months and months to upload things02:37
ScottLi don't believe anyone has access to that part of the server02:37
rlameirowell, are we a comunity distro or not?02:37
ScottLi believe that currently stochastic and cory have access to the drupal website to edit content02:38
ScottLrlameiro, i think that answer is probably "not really"02:38
ScottLas far as making decisions goes, that is02:38
ScottLi think a lot of "earth shaking" decisions probably happen behind closed doors02:39
rlameirobut if we use our own hosting and stuff, do canonical kick us out?02:39
ScottLbut then again, i believe fedora relies on their community board to make decisions, so it's still not the community directly in those cases02:39
ScottLbut at least it seems to be transparent or more transparent02:39
ScottLrlameiro, i don't think so, i would imagine they would appreciate us hosting ourselves, less work for them02:40
rlameirowell, then we need to have the domain also02:40
rlameiroas we, ubuntustudio we02:40
ScottLnot that it's a lot of work currently i would imagine, maybe more of a personal nuisance to whoever has to do it02:40
ScottLcory said that canonical owns the domain name, but would point it wherever we wanted02:40
ScottLi can't validate how we knows that, but i trust cory on it02:41
rlameirocan we use subdomains?02:41
rlameirolike wiki.ubuntustudio.org?02:41
ailoI should have tried the latest -generic more than I did. I am unable to reproduce xruns at 64 frames/period at the moment. I't deja vu. Working like it did initially with 2.6.38-102:41
ScottLthat's a good question rlameiro , i have no idea02:42
rlameirowell, anyway, if that happens i am sure that ubuntustudio will have a boost02:42
rlameirowith documentation centralized, showed the way US wants it to be02:42
rlameiroand also if there is a respin after the "official" release :D02:43
ailoI think ubuntu wiki can do, if the documentation is just better organized02:43
rlameiroubuntustudio - core (official release)02:43
rlameiroubuntustudio - danger (respin)02:44
ScottLailo, interesting :P02:44
ailoCan you believe I'm not getting a single xrun with -generic at 64 frames/period02:44
rlameiroailo: interface?02:44
ailoThis was not the case, just a couple of days ago02:44
ScottLailo, part of me hopes it continues working well, part of me hopes that it bombs for you (so we should pursue -lowlatency)02:44
ailorlameiro, builtin HDA02:44
rlameiroailo: ohhh... not for me then02:45
ailoHDA intel02:45
ailorlameiro, Don't think it matters which interface, as long as you don't have some specific hardware issues.02:45
ScottLailo, i've used several dell machines (p4, 2.2 ghz) with onboard sound and gotten very stable 11 msec latencies :)02:45
rlameiroailo: FireWire maters, a lot :D02:45
ailoMy Sound Blaster card won't work well with any kernel02:45
rlameiroand if you have 8 ins and 8 outs running at the same time... well, then we speak hardcore stuff :D02:46
ScottLthat's what i used for a while before i got my delta02:46
ailoIt's a very old Sound Blaster card. It doesn't even start at low latency settings02:46
rlameiroailo: soundblaster never had good driver support in linux02:46
rlameirothe old ones where to closed by creative02:47
ailorlameiro, I use 12 ins and outs with M-audio delta cards, but those are of course PCI02:47
ScottLailo, rlameiro : i think currently that it would be too much work to put all documentation on the website and probably should just stick with the wiki for now02:47
rlameiroailo: yeah.... its awesome. but with laptops i really need Firewire02:47
ailorlameiro, holstein seems to have no problems with firewire. I would only expect those to have problems, who suffer from irq sharing, no?02:47
ailoWhich, hopefully, 2.6.39 will redeem02:48
rlameiroScottL: sure. But i dont se why not strating to "clone" sites on the process of reorganizing that ailo mentioned02:48
ScottLrlameiro, i like your idea of "ubuntu studio - danger" as a codename02:48
rlameirofor instance the jack documentation, when reorganized, cloned it to US-wiki02:49
rlameiroScottL: neat name isnt it :D02:49
rlameirowe could try to pull more stuff to that respin02:49
ScottLrlameiro, where would you start the "clone" site?  i am presuming you would clone it back to the ubuntu wiki02:49
rlameiromaybe we should make sure the server where the respin is, is not on the us :D02:50
rlameiroScottL: for instance, when one pages is worked on ubuntu wiki, after that we clone it to Ubuntu studio wiki02:50
rlameiroand maybe embedd some youtube videos showing it working etc02:51
ScottLoh, on wiki.ubuntustudio.org to be clone to02:51
rlameiroi dont think you can do that on the ubuntu wiki for instance02:51
rlameiroso basically do it on ubuntu, and the stuff you cant do in ubuntu wiki, well do int in wiki.US.org02:52
ScottLthe only thing i can think of that would not work well in that case would be the formating done on the wiki02:52
ScottLfor example, = This is a Heading =    and  == This is a Sub-Heading ==02:53
ScottLwe would need to manually strip that formating out and reformat however the drupal website needs it02:53
ScottLnot that this can't be done, but it will not necessarily be automatic02:53
ailorlameiro, Perhaps you will change your mind, if the documentation in the Ubuntu wiki is really nice and organized?02:54
rlameiroScottL: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MoinMoin/Filter02:54
* ailo is feeling pretty happy with the -generic at the moment. Would be good for others to give it a go as well.02:54
rlameiroif the wiki choosen is wikimedia of course02:54
ailoholstein, Do you have Natty installed still? Could you give the latest -generic a go?02:55
holsteinailo: sure02:55
holsteinwith FW?02:55
rlameiroailo: I dont have nothing agains the ubuntu wiki, dont get me wrong.02:55
rlameirowe shouldnt forget theat the wiki is suposed to be a developers tool02:56
rlameirohelp.ubuntu.com is for helping users02:56
rlameiroI think that that line could be crossed in a hipothetical ubuntustudio wiki02:57
ailoholstein, Yeah. Don't think a lot of people have been testing the -generic for a while02:57
rlameiroholstein: using Texas instruments chipset?>02:57
holsteinrlameiro: whats my name! :)02:58
holsteinim hoarding several PCI TI cards02:58
holsteinailo: its been a whil02:59
holsteinlet me run the updates02:59
rlameiroI really need to buy my pcixpress mini card...03:00
holsteinyeah, i got one of those too03:00
holsteinmanhattan brand03:00
holsteinwith TI03:00
ailoHaven't tried Mac or Windows for a while, but I don't think they can get 64 frames/period very easily. I really wouldn't have thought -generic would give us that.03:01
rlameiroailo: they can. well at least they say they can, but not really :D03:02
rlameirothey do latency compensation. On mac seems possible. 03:02
ScottLrlameiro, another solution would be to use the drupal wiki module as well03:03
rlameiroScottL: its always a solution03:03
ScottLailo, awesome that you are feeling good with it, i need to update my natty install and play with it03:03
rlameirowe dont need to clone everything, just the Core stuff, more importnat to new users03:03
ScottLi will do that this week, i want to also test some of falktx's stuff03:03
rlameirofor the more advanced a pointer to ubuntu wiki should be provided03:04
ailoScottL, It really turns things around, if it is consistent. 03:04
ScottLrlameiro, you are correct about wiki.u.c vs. help.u.c03:06
ScottLwe tend to use wiki as an interchangeable term03:06
ScottLincorrectly i should add03:06
ScottLi'll go update my natty install as well (instead of playing minecraft)03:09
holsteinScottL: you've earned some minecraft time :)03:09
ailoActually, I was trying out -generic 2.6.38-7. I'm updating too now, and the latest is 2.6.38-803:15
holsteinw0w 16 frames/period03:20
holstein2 periods buffer03:20
holsteinthats on lucid03:21
holsteinwith kernel 2.6.33-29-realtime :)03:21
holsteinsays .726 msec03:21
ailoholstein, I didn't know that was possible03:22
holsteinnot sure how much i would trust the stability of that running al the time though03:22
holsteinlet mre try running some things...03:22
holsteinJAMin is the test reall03:22
holsteinits *so* heavy03:22
holsteinyeah, not optimal03:24
holsteinlet me try 64/3 though03:24
holsteinim opening a decent sized session03:25
holstein7 tracks03:25
holsteinat 24 44.103:25
holsteinwith lots of effects03:25
holsteinand routing through JAMin03:25
holsteinyeah, this seems stable03:25
holsteinat 4.3ms03:26
holsteini get xruns from the UI03:27
holsteinswitching desktops while its playing03:27
holsteinoh well03:27
holsteinthats why i have several JACK profiles03:27
ailoThere are some programs I have noticed are not as reliable with jack03:28
ailoI just assume they are not well written, or something03:28
holsteinJAMin is just heavy03:28
ailoWell, pretty much the same deal on 2.6.38-8 for me, using -generic. 2.9 ms latency, 64 frames/period03:42
ScottLholstein, yeah, jamin is real heavy03:44
ScottLwhen i was using the old dell p4 i could do everything i wanted basically...except when i was using jamin03:44
ScottLit alone at up all the cpu cycles03:44
ScottLailo, good deal (getting the same good performance with 2.6.38-8)03:45
ScottLi'm doing partial upgrade on natty right now (after a few minutes of minecraft :P )03:45
holsteinim still waiting03:45
holstein 03:45
ailoJust the sound of the hard drive, when installing all those programs03:46
ailoHmm, tried starting Hexter. Says: "jack-dssi-host" (No such file or directory)04:04
holsteinim finally about to restart here :)04:10
holsteinailo: 2.6.38-8?04:10
ailoholstein, Yep04:11
holstein-lowlatency right?04:11
holsteinailo: ^04:11
ailoholstein, I get the same results with -generic. Try that one04:11
holsteinfor some reason04:11
holsteini only see 2.6.37-904:11
holsteindoes that sound right?04:12
ailoholstein, No, should be 2.6.38-804:13
holsteinwell, let me boot -lowlatency04:13
holsteinand i'll look into why i didnt get the -generic kernel04:13
ailoholstein: Are you dual booting?04:13
holsteineither installed or added to grub...04:13
holsteinyeah, but i went out and ran update-grub04:14
holsteinin lucid04:14
holsteinthat usually gets them04:14
holsteinthis is a confusing tripleboot actually...04:14
ailoupdate-grub should do it, but update-grub2 might be needed too. Should be done on the system that has the grub installed, though04:14
holsteinwell, it addedthat -lowlatency kernel04:15
holsteini might not have installed it somehow04:15
ScottLis 2.6.38 available for lucid?04:17
ScottLmight be a pretty ignorant question04:17
ailoApparently, installing hexter will not install one of it's dependencies: dssi-host-jack04:17
ScottLailo, you should file a bug for that, get it put into the control file04:18
ailoScottL, Not in the main repo04:18
ScottLoh yeah, you and holstein are getting from falktx's ppa aren't you?04:18
ailoScottL, Not me04:18
ailoAnyway, we should not test on another release. Should test on natty04:19
ScottLoh...perhaps i misunderstood, what is not in the main repo?04:19
ailoScottL, 2.6.38 for Lucid04:19
holsteinyeah, not on the test installs04:19
holsteinjust for lucid04:19
holsteinmy maverick and natty are just buntu04:19
holsteinfor testing purposes04:19
ScottLailo, right, that is what i thought :)  (2.6.38 not in the main repo for lucid)04:20
holsteinailo: looks great for -lowlatency04:20
ScottLailo, but i can test some tomorrow night on natty04:20
* ScottL is going upstairs to check on natty updates04:20
ailoholstein, I've had pretty much exactly the same results with -lowlatency all along. -generic has been up and down. Right now, it's the same as -lowlatency for me04:21
holsteinwoah, that unity bar04:21
holsteinthe launcher04:21
holsteinits brutal now04:21
ailoHaven't tried that yet04:21
ailoholstein, Is it good?04:21
holsteini guess thats all opinion04:22
holsteinits hiding in a really odd way04:22
holsteinyeah, somehow -generic just got removed04:24
holsteinthe metapackage or whatever04:24
holsteinim getting it now04:24
holsteinailo: you're not a fan of the XFCE idea?04:30
ailoholstein, I'm not auto-against it, but I don't think it's pointing towards the future, more so towards the past04:32
holsteinyeah, it'll start at 16/2 with -generic04:33
ailoI think Ubuntu Studio should be on the forefront of technology, but not get crazy with system needs04:33
holsteinlet me try some things at 128/204:33
holsteinits xrunning04:33
holsteinnot as nice as -lowlatency was04:34
holsteini cant get by with letting it run at 128/204:34
holsteinwithout xruns :/04:34
holsteinoh well04:34
ailoholstein: With firewire?04:34
holsteinin my setup04:34
ailoI think 128/2 is pretty good04:34
holsteinim noticing -lowlatency being quite stable04:34
holsteinbut -generic not really doing the job04:34
ailoHow about 64/2?04:35
holsteinsame deal really04:35
holsteinxrun right off the bat04:35
holsteinas long as i dont do *anything*04:36
ailoholstein, So you get xruns at 128/2? I must have misunderstood04:36
holsteinits stable04:36
holsteinailo: with -generic04:36
holsteinwith the -lowlatency04:36
holsteinthat seems usealbe04:36
ailoWell, let's hope 2.6.39 will be better.04:38
holsteinhey, i found the system setting :)04:38
holsteinunity is a lot like KDE for me right now04:38
holsteini cant find anything04:38
holsteinand the UI is odd ;)04:38
holsteinthey still got time04:40
holsteinits coming along great i think04:40
holsteinits just not for me at all04:40
holsteinailo: what are your ideas for US UI ?04:41
ailoholstein, I just tried Gnome 3 a bit. Coming out today, my time04:43
ailoholstein, I think it's virtually the same as Gnome2, but with a different panel system04:43
ailoMaybe it will get some getting used to, using the UI differently. The UI is probably adapted to a wider range of hardware.04:45
ailoLike touch screens04:45
holsteinailo: on lucid?04:46
holsteindid you add a ppa?04:46
holsteini like gnome04:46
ailoGnome3 and Unity are young. They need to be tested and tried, and developed. For US, I think XFCE could be a nice transition04:46
holsteini think the idea is that xfce would be nice and light04:47
holsteinbut still theme-able04:47
holsteinand modern feeling04:47
holsteinand maybe the teams could colaborate a bit04:47
ailoWell, I don't feel it is as modern as it is light04:47
ailoLight is good04:47
ailoBut, there are other systems that can be lighter than Ubuntu Studio. I don't think that should be the goal04:48
holsteini dont find it as bare-bones as LXDE04:48
holsteinrather gnome-like in feel04:48
ailoI think the goal should be a stable, modern system. 04:48
holsteinailo: you think KDE?04:48
holsteinlike KXstudio?04:48
ailoPuredyne uses XFCE. It works really well, but I'd much rather use Gnome04:48
ailoholstein, Personally, I don't like KDE much better. 04:49
holsteinyeah, i dont like it either04:50
holsteinbut i have to say04:50
holsteini think KDE4 is the most modern looking and feeling UI04:50
ailoholstein, I agree, that it looks modern, but I don't feel the functionality is really that much more modern04:51
ailoThe widgets, I don't like04:52
holsteini dont like the idea of them04:52
holsteinthey look slick04:52
holsteinailo: there is something to be said for being a gnome3 shop04:52
holsteinif folks are looking for gnome + ubuntu04:53
holsteinand we have that04:53
holsteinthat would get a lot of folks to install US04:53
holsteinjust for taht reason04:53
ailoFedora is going for Gnome3 with their next release04:53
ailoI would assume, Debian will too, but that will take some time04:53
holsteinKokito: o/04:55
Kokitohey holstein 04:55
holsteinailo: as long as gnome3 is in the ubuntu repos04:55
holsteinand is maintained04:55
holsteinwhich, i would assume it will be04:55
holsteinailo: is unity out of the question?04:56
holsteinwe should probably think about that04:56
ailoholstein, I haven't yet use Unity enough.04:56
ailoholstein, If Unity works well, why not, I think04:57
KokitoI played with Unity a bit the other day, and I kind of liked it. there will be a learning curve, though04:57
holsteinwould be the path of least resistance i suppose04:57
ailoholstein, Either way, ubuntustudio-desktop will need some work05:02
ailoI think one of the reasons to go for XFCE was the possibility to get some more help05:03
holsteinmore help05:04
holsteinand stability05:04
holsteinless drastic changes05:05
holsteinand xubuntu aint going anywhere05:05
ailoGnome3 will probably not change too much, too fast, so there would only be a lot of work needed initially. Unity might change more rapidly.05:07
ailoJust guessing05:07
holsteinsounds about right05:09
ailoEither we decide we can do the work during next release, if we choose to use one of those, or we take what could be an easier route with XFCE, and wait with deciding on Gnome3 or Unity. 05:10
holsteinyeah, maybe we could talk about how long the XFCE thing would be05:11
ailoThere might be other problems too. I have a problem with nouveau drivers on one of my computers05:11
holsteinif we could just try it for 11.1005:11
ailoGnome3 starts on it, but I get corrupted graphics05:12
ailoCould be a lot of that initially. It's not fun for a lot of users, if they get bugs like that05:13
holsteinwell, im not opposed to looking at gnome305:13
holsteinbut, so far, i really like the idea of XFCE05:13
holsteinfor lightness05:13
holsteinand customization05:14
holsteinand the extra help we could be getting05:14
holsteini gotta crash05:22
holsteinGN all..05:22
Kokitogn holstein 05:25
=== Guest43108 is now known as jussi01
=== jussi01 is now known as Guest36281
=== Guest36281 is now known as jussi01
ailoabogani: It would seem that -generic is working quite well again, but I asked holstein to try it with his firewire device. According to him, he gets a lot better performance from -lowlatency.13:24
ailoOn an updated system, like mine13:25
aboganiailo: ack13:25
scott-workailo: ralf talks about having posted to the mailing list his tests for the kernel: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2011-April/007437.html13:26
scott-worki thought you might be interested in that13:26
scott-workailo: also, i thought if this will have awake this morning in bed before my alarm went off...13:27
scott-workwe should probably include a troubleshooting section ofthe documetnation for the most common problems (like you mentioned before)13:27
scott-workso maybe   1. intro13:27
scott-work2. instal13:27
scott-work3 simple tasks13:27
scott-work4 advanced tasks13:27
scott-work5. troubleshooting13:27
scott-workalthough i would like to find a better way to parse between all the common tasks in a/v/g than just the "3. simple tasks" and "4. advanced tasks"13:28
scott-worki would like to find something a little more elegant and instructional13:28
ailoscott-work, I don't think we need to include all that many tasks. I think it's enough with one or two typical examples for audio, the same for graphics and video.13:30
ailoIt would be great to have a demo for those too13:32
ailoOr, videos as you have planned13:32
ailoI don't see a difference between simple and advanced tasks. 13:33
ailoMore, for a rock song I would do this, for an electronica song I would do that13:33
ailoOr, to create icons, I might use Inskape, and so on13:34
scott-workyou're right, i probably need to splend some time in front of a dry-erase board and list what i think should be in there and then see what the organization fits them13:34
scott-worki also realized this morning in bed that i should be followign the workflows :P13:35
scott-workthat shoudl help quite a bit13:35
ailoscott-work, We don't need to include too much reference on single programs, like Ardour and Qtractor. We can add links to documentation on those. We do however need to explain how to set up the system manually, I think, even if it isn't necessary, just as reference.13:36
scott-workhmmm, maybe we should add manual setup to either installing or add another section for setup then13:37
scott-workailo: i absolutely agree this should be included even if it is automated - having that reference could be hugely important later on if something changes13:37
ailoJack needs explanation of course.13:37
ailoscott-work, About ralphs tests, it seems they were made a long time ago, and would not be relevant today13:38
scott-workoh :(  okay..13:39
scott-workmaybe the "setup" part could be an appendix (don't know, just talking out loud)13:40
aboganiailo: IMHO You are wasting your time.13:46
aboganiabout ralf I meant.13:46
ailoabogani, About -lowlatency?13:46
aboganiNo about Ralf.13:46
ailoPerhaps Ralf will change his mind with 2.6.39 :P. Would be nice if more people were testing the kernels.13:49
ailoscott-work, The less we need to inform the user, the better, right?13:52
scott-workabogani: lol :)13:52
* scott-work really did LOL13:52
scott-workabogani: ralf seems knowledgeable, but he also seems a little like he has suffered some injury by the universe and is slightly either angry or paranoid that we don't all do exactly what he says or thinks like him13:54
scott-workbut that is just my opinion (for what it is worth) based on reading a fraction of his emails on the list13:54
* abogani agrees13:55
scott-workfor the number of problems ralf reports i wonder what kind of hardware he is using14:11
scott-workmaybe not the "number of problems" but perhaps the "severity of problems"14:11
aboganivery graves I think if only ps2 mouse movement can interfere on his computer performance. 14:27
scott-workabogani:  agreed14:59
ailoscott-work, For every creative task, I think there's basic things and then more and more advanced topics. For example, recording a rock song. First things first, how to record. The deeper you get into the production, the more advanced it gets. Changing tempos, using effects..15:05
ailoscott-work, Finally, you can get into things like bitrate and samplerate and things like that.15:05
ailoJust understanding a compressor may not be easy for a beginner, but again, that may not be something we need to teach the user15:06
ailoBut, we can always provide links to every topic we can think of15:06
scott-worksure (links), i think that is a good idea :)15:07
scott-worki believe we will need to keep a clear eye on what we consider the purpose of this documention....15:07
scott-workis it to teach others to use ubuntu studio or is it to teach others how to record music15:08
scott-workwhere do things like compressors fall into those categories?15:08
scott-workwe should certainly educate users on how to add plugins15:08
scott-workdo we want to explain how compressors work?15:08
ailoscott-work, I think it's a nice idea to include examples on how to use Ubuntu Studio. I like that, it's a very quick way to show what you can do with it. But, perhaps we don't need to dive that deep with every example15:08
scott-workshould we give some example settings for a typical compressor for vocals, or acoustic guitar?15:09
scott-worki'm certainly not against linking to a good explanation for compressor if we know of one15:09
scott-workbut i also know it's easy to get sucked into trying to explain everything as well :P15:10
ailoscott-work, I wouldn't want to spend time on things like that tbh. Rather, I would give a link to somewhere where audio production is a topic15:10
ailoscott-work, I think the key is, try spending time on those things that are Ubuntu Studio specific, and try using other resources as much as possible for those things, that aren't15:11
scott-workailo: agreed :)15:11
ailoBut, I do think giving some examples on how to do different things is a great idea15:11
scott-worki would really like to do that as well, along with some typical settings for plugins15:12
scott-worki haven't liked some of the "help" i've received for these things, which is usually "play with it and use the settings you like"15:12
scott-workand i say that i dont' like it because there are hundreds of plugins for hundreds of purposes and each one has hundreds of settings15:13
scott-worki can't possibly play with enough, contiguously enough, to really wrap my head around it15:13
scott-workit's like eating a whale, you can't do it all at once or really even comprehend what all is involved15:13
scott-workyou need to do it one bite at a time15:13
ailoscott-work, Audio engineering is a very big topic, I think. I've spent quite a lot of time studying and reading as well as recording and mixing. It takes a lot of time to learn it15:14
scott-workso if a typical setting for a compressor for vocals can be made available as a starting point, then that makes the proccess so muche easier15:14
ailoWhen I started out, around 2001-2002, there wasn't all that much to find tutorial wise on the net at the time. I'm sure the situation has improved.15:14
scott-workailo: i bought a book (well, a couple) that have helped somewhat, although i need to reread and apply some of the stuff i've read and learned15:15
scott-worki'd say that fault lies more with me than the books in this instance ;)15:15
scott-workailo: i'm sure it has, but i haven't look on the net in a while for these items15:15
ailoscott-work, Often they start explaining too much in detail, before you get to use and experience some settings first15:15
scott-workailo: and i've often found that there is too much information if you are not using it in a practical way, day to day15:16
ailoscott-work, Also, just getting used to hearing things takes a lot of time, at least it did for me15:16
scott-workailo:  absolutely15:16
ailoscott-work, I like practical. I like detailed reference too, but I always want to try some examples first15:17
scott-worki have had a few, small breakthroughs with some things like how reverd or delay can make the vocals sit in front of the music, in it, or behind it15:17
scott-workbut the main thing was that i was completely ignorant that reverb or delay could even do that!15:18
scott-worki still dont' know how it all works thoroughly15:18
ailoscott-work, Also, by eq'ing the reverb or delay, you can make it blend in more. Take away some of the top, so it won't sound as near as the main signal15:19
scott-workheh, eq is so subjective that i don't even want to consider doing it :P15:19
scott-workin this case, i'm extremely like you, i want some practical experience or a really good tutorial to say, move this fader to 10khz, notice how the sound changed ?15:20
ailoYes, and not only that, but why you want it to change15:20
ailoEQ: add punch to a bass or bass drum, by adding gain at 50-80 Hz, take away some muddy bass from around 150-300 Hz, add bass plectrum sound at 3000 Hz, add the click to the kick at 3000-5000 and perhaps some presence at the highes frequencies.15:22
ailoI think there 's a lot of that type of info these days.15:24
ailoscott-work, I wonder from where abogani gets the source in the first place, before he patches it and uploads it..17:40
ailoI believe this is the main source for Ubuntu next release http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-oneiric.git;a=summary17:41
scott-workailo: i'm not sure, but my understanding is that it is directly from ubuntu17:51
scott-workailo:  so i would presume the source you found may be it17:51
ailoscott-work_, So, I was going through what you wrote up. I'm a little puzzled by the last bit20:38
scott-work_ailo: which part?20:38
ailocd ..20:38
ailols (verify .changes name)20:38
ailodput ppa:<username>/<ppaname> <packagename.changes>20:38
scott-work_oh, the kernel stuff20:38
ailocd to the main folder?20:38
scott-work_hold on...let me me look20:38
ailoI'm trying out 2.6.39 kernel, without aboganis patch, just for fun20:39
scott-work_okay, to run debuild you need to be in the source directory20:39
scott-work_to find the .changes file you need to be one directory UP20:39
scott-work_hence the cd ..20:39
scott-work_that pulls you out of the source directory back to whatever directory you stored all this mess in20:39
scott-work_i like to "ls" to see what files are there20:40
scott-work_you may have run this multiple times and might have multiple .changes files20:40
scott-work_you want to verify that you are sending the correct one to your ppa20:40
ailoRight. I think I see it now20:40
scott-work_also, i like to copy the correct name by highlighting and right click/copy so this reduces the clutter of file names to sort through20:40
scott-work_oh good :)20:41
ailoThat should be what I upload, right?20:41
scott-work_i think this is a part of packaging and building that people have trouble understanding20:41
scott-work_you are not uploading the entire file again20:41
scott-work_you are only uploaded any differences (or delta) in your file compared to the original file20:41
ailoI see20:41
scott-work_which is why everyone gets so wonky (rightly so) about the orig.tar.gz files20:42
ailoSo, in launchpad, all of the Ubuntu source is already there?20:42
scott-work_if you dont' start with the same base original file the diffs get mad crazy20:42
scott-work_ailo: i presume so if you started with alessio's work20:42
ailoI'm just trying the main kernel source for now. I will try to find out how to patch it later20:43
scott-work_ailo: then i would certainly presume the original source file is there :)20:43
scott-work_but i think dput is pretty smart  (or launchpad is) because i think it wille even upload the source in some cases20:44
ailoThis will be my first upload to my PPA. Maybe not such a good idea to upload that kernel yet. Don't think I will install it on my system anyway20:44
scott-work_although i'm not exactly sure which cases it might or might not20:44
scott-work_ailo: you can always make another ppa for testing20:45
ailoIt's called testing, so hopefully people realize that20:45
scott-work_i took abogani 's advice and made one called "broken" to actively discourage people from using it20:45
ailoThat's a good name for a PPA20:46
ailoscott-work_, Hmm, I wonder if it was a good idea to change the name of the version, like you suggest on your scratchpad.20:46
scott-work_ailo: do you mean removing "-ubuntu1"?20:47
ailoscott-work_, Yes20:47
ailoscott-work_, Does it take a while, before the building starts? I see it as pending at the moment20:48
scott-work_alessio was quite emphatic about change the version, he mentioned it to me several times20:49
scott-work_ailo: yes, the build times are dependent on several factors, including what else is in the queue and what importance you stuff has to others20:49
scott-work_if the queue is already full, you have to wait20:50
scott-work_if you are almost ready to build (by time) but a security build with more importance comes through, you will end up waiting20:50
scott-work_i've had less than an hour to build then came back and found out i was days out from building because other stuff was apparently pushed in front of me20:51
ailoscott-work_, I see. They score the builds.20:51
scott-work_https://launchpad.net/~ailo.at/+archive/testing/+buildjob/2431896  look for the build score20:51
ailoWell, I can wait20:52
scott-work_what's weird is that i don't see an estimated start time though :/20:53
scott-work_usually it says "15 minutes" or "2 hours" or "April 7"20:53
ailoscott-work_, rncbc was testing the kernel before and said that the rtirq script worked out of the box20:53
scott-work_sweet :)20:53
ailoBut, I don't know exactly what that means. Hopefully it's enough just to install the script20:54
ailoscott-work_, I added the bug I mentioned yesterday about Hexter. http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hexter/+bug/75295022:09
ubottuUbuntu bug 752950 in hexter (Ubuntu) "Dependency listed wrongfully as Suggest" [Undecided,New]22:09
ailoI noticed that people sometimes want someone to confirm the bug22:09
scott-work_the only natty install i have is ubuntu studio which already has hexter and the dssi thingie as well22:18
scott-work_i can try removing both and see what happens and then report this in the bug22:18
scott-work_(and then reinstall both)22:18
ailoscott-work_, Uninstall both, and then just install hexter. 22:18
scott-work_going home22:20

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