frankhello, does anyone know how to find the desktop effects in natty narwal?00:05
TheMusofrank: What desktop effects are you looking for?00:09
frankthe ones that make my windows go wobbly for instance00:12
* maco branches ubiquity00:27
TheMusoGah he leaves... *sigh*00:28
TheMusomaco: If we are unable to get these done for Natty, I know it would be useful to get them into Vinux.00:29
macoTheMuso: there should be a tutorial for this00:42
macoTheMuso: have you played with this before? i'm a bit confused with doing this programmatically instead of in the glade file00:44
TheMusoQuick question for people currently in here. With the accessibility profiles, do you think its safe to assume that any new users created on an installed system should also have accessibility enabled?00:44
TheMusomaco: Sorry I haven't.00:45
TheMusoI am working with a patch from a regular contributor who thinks that any new user accounts that are created will want various accessibility bits enabled for their account.00:46
macooh i found the wiki page i had up earlier00:46
macohttp://live.gnome.org/GAP/AtkGuide#GAP.2BAC8-AtkGuide.2BAC8-GtkAtk.Using_GTK.2B-_and_ATK_to_Build_Accessible_Applications  <--00:46
macoTheMuso: how do you use orca?02:15
macoi'm confused02:15
macoi'm trying to run ubiquity locally (and just not do the apply step) with orca to test, but orca isn't reading the ubiquity window at all02:16
TheMusomaco: What do you mean?02:16
TheMusoYou need to enable accessibility for a start.02:16
TheMusoAnd restart your session.02:16
TheMusoAnd if you are running ubiquity in a KDE session, not everything is correctly set up.02:16
macoi installed ubiquity-frontend-gtk02:16
* maco sets up a vm02:22
* maco scowls02:40
macoat-spi crashed while running that test02:40
macoand quitting orca doesn't quit it02:40
macoit asks are you sure, and if you click cancel, the "are you sure?" window closes and orca keeps running. if you click "quit" it does nothing02:41
macohmm or maybe it just takes forever02:41
TheMusoOrca should quit when you click quit.02:43
macoit apparently quits after a lag02:45
macowow, its really annoying using apt-get with orca running02:46
TheMusoDisable speech with insert + s02:46
TheMusoThen re-enable it with the same keystroke.02:46
macoTheMuso: thank you02:54
macoit apparently doesnt show the partition stepif you're on an empty disk. 03:09
TheMusomaco: Does it totally freeze, or does it ask something different?03:29
macoTheMuso: skips it03:30
TheMusoah ok03:31
macomy first attempted-patch was to make the labels (instead of radio button id's) be read for the radio buttons on the partition page. so i need to actually have it come up ;-)03:33
macoTheMuso: so, programmatically, there ARE accelerators for Forward/Back -- i can see them now that gtk has failed to use a proper theme04:25
macowhen it looks like Windows 98, i can see that there are accelerators04:25
maco(and they work)04:25
TheMusoHeh wonderful.04:32
macoTheMuso: im having a lot of trouble with testing. at-spi keeps crashing04:34
macohmm wait maybe this is my fault04:35
TheMusoThats weird, I don't ever get crashes here.04:35
macowell, at-spi-registryd becomes non-responsive, and i never get the partition screen04:35
maco(im using today's daily live image)04:35
TheMusoSounds like ubiquity is doing something funky.04:35
TheMusoHow are you running ubiquity?04:36
macofrom the terminal04:36
TheMusoOk, are you running it with gksu?04:36
TheMusoI think its trying to get root privs but can't.04:36
macooooh could try04:37
TheMusomaco: It may also be worth running with the blindness a11y profile, as that will completely set things up such that things should work/04:37
TheMusoi.e boot the image using an a11y profile, and then run ubiquity using gksu.04:37
macoi did boot with the screen reader option04:37
TheMusoHrm ok, so trying with gksu/root privs is the next option.04:37
TheMusoAs ubiquity needs it.04:37
macoi used gksu this time, and it still went language, "get updates from internet?", time zone, keyboard...04:38
macoit should have asked about partitioning before the timezone stuff i think04:39
TheMusoYes it shoudl have. Is the disk you are trying to use pre-partitioned, or empty?04:40
macoit should have an existing partition04:40
TheMusoLet me grab the latest daily, and have a squiz myself.04:40
macobecause im booting the iso over top of a maverick vm04:40
macoits possible my changes just broke that .py and it fails silently04:40
macobut i dont know how to make it fail LOUDLY04:41
* maco wonders if python has anything like "perl -c"04:42
TheMusoI don't know.04:43
macooh i see. the little underlines for accelerators appear only when you hold down alt04:54
TheMusoI disagree with that personally.04:57
macoTheMuso: since thats no use if you cant see it happen?05:04
TheMusomaco: No, for those who want to use them need to visually rpes a key before they know what they are.05:06
Nafaidang it.  was there a meeting today?05:09
TheMusoNafai: You didn't miss much.05:13
macoTheMuso: its gotta be something about my changes05:15
macobcause i just tried it in a vm unmodified and it came up05:15
macothough orca got silent after the first page, oddly05:16
* maco headdesk05:16
macoi wonder if i just need to "import atk" ...05:16
maco(and at-spi still crashed with my unmodified version)05:17
NafaiTheMuso: Ok.  I meant to be here, but I was sleeping. :)05:18
TheMusomaco: Could I see your changes? I think there are atk calls in the pygtk bindings but not entirely sure.05:21
macoTheMuso: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590532 has the chunk i was adding in to ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py05:21
TheMusomaco: Thanks.05:21
maco(and adding "import atk" didnt help)05:22
macoputting that chunk in still kills that page05:22
TheMusomaco: What does self refer to in this context?05:22
TheMusomaco: Actually, there may be debugging in /var/log/installer/debug or one of the other files in that directory.05:22
macoTheMuso: the page05:23
TheMusomaco: ok05:23
macooooh hey yes it DOES have debugging there! thank you05:24
macohmm and the debug log is saying invalid syntax at line 148...which is a few lines after my changes. so maybe i messed up parentheses or something05:26
maco...and there are .pyc files. i hate .pyc files. they destroy debugability what with their persistence beyond my changes -_-05:28
TheMusoI agree.05:29
* TheMuso regrets deleting his ubiquity branch. It takes ages to download again, particularly over an international connection that has been slow to Aus recently...05:31
macooh wait dang. this is with my stuff commented05:32
macowell. now that ive sorted out the steps required (rm .pyc, then gksu ubiquity, then tail /var/log/installer/debug) maybe i can figure out why my code go boom05:32
* maco headdesk05:34
macono "could not import module..." errors this time like before05:34
macobut again it doesnt show05:34
macoif its fine with my syntax, why is it ignoring the entire file? -_-05:35
TheMusomaco: I'd get the original and your modified version and get a unified diff.05:36
TheMusoI always find unified diffs to help me work out what may be going on.05:37
macoTheMuso: my modifications are just that one chunk of lines being inserted...the context around it isn't very helpful05:37
macoknow a way to run it interactively?05:38
TheMusoNo, my python skills are still very much undeveloped.05:39
TheMusoSomeone in ubuntu-dev or a python channel would know for sure.05:39
macoheyyy progress05:42
TheMusomaco: One thing I don't understand with your fragment is why you think the atk functions are addressable from the self object... I would think you want to get them from the gtk object...05:42
TheMusomaco: oooh whats the problem?05:42
macoi commented out all but one radio button's-worth and that still failed so then i commented out the two lines of that button's code that use atk relationships and the page is now showing05:43
macoso the .get_accessible()'s are at least working05:43
macoand to answer that:05:44
TheMusoI think you only need one relationship, i.e label for, or labelled by,.05:44
macothe docs im reading show both in use, but i could try just commenting one05:44
macoself.atk_resize_use_free = self.resize_use_free.get_accessible()     <--- .get_accessible() returns an atk.Object05:44
macoso my self.atk_resize_use_free is of type atk.Object05:44
TheMusoah ok05:45
TheMusothat makes sense.05:45
macook so commenting one and leaving the other goes back to it being invisible05:46
macoatk.RELATION_LABEL_FOR  <-- im guessing this constant is having a problem05:46
macowell the atk relation constants in general05:47
macoor maybe im just using add_relation() wrong. i only saw a C example of that one05:47
TheMusoWorth digging throught eh pygtk bindings I think05:47
TheMusomaco: There is a piece of example code in the python gtk2 source: Let me pastebin it.05:50
macoi think i found it05:50
TheMusomaco: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590579/05:50
macoadd_relationship() not add_relation() ...05:50
TheMusomaco: Right but I think you should look at that code, as it deals with relation sets.05:50
* hajour is going to uds in may :))05:51
macoit works!05:51
TheMusomaco: sweet.05:52
TheMusohajour: Congratulations!05:52
hajourye still not can believe it :)05:52
hajourjust have read the mail05:52
hajourand thank you05:52
* UndiFineD looks jealously at hajour 05:53
UndiFineDcongratulations my dear05:53
hajour:) hehe thank you my dear05:55
macoTheMuso: ok so its less sucky but still not right. its reading the label (yay!) but also still reading the variable name for the radio button (boo!)05:58
hajourbtw that will not go be  a habit. XD saying nicknames in chat05:58
TheMusomaco: Probably best to set the atk name for the radio button. I am guessing something like in the example I pastebinned above.05:59
hajourbtw already got a nice nick name her in chat hajour06:00
TheMusoSo self.radiobuttonblah.set_name("Name of radio button")06:00
hajourok i go have some breakfast then sleep and reading logs again :)06:02
macoTheMuso: what im seeing happen now is that when i get to that page it reads the first one's label twice, then the radio button id. if i move to another radio button or back to it, labels are read once then the radio button id. im not sure why it's doubling or why its reading the id afterward, but adding    self.atk_resize_use_free.set_name(self.resize_use_free.get_text())     doesn't make it stop reading the id06:23
TheMusomaco: I am looking through glade now, and this can all be done in glade, assigning the label for something etc.06:31
* TheMuso digs up the ui file for the partitioning page.06:31
macoTheMuso: translations...06:31
macodoing it in glade means hardcoding it in english06:31
macoalso, some of them make glade throw an error and refuse to open06:32
TheMusomaco: I am sure glade allows for translations. But I was thinking assigning the label for and label by stuff06:32
TheMusohrm interesting.06:32
macoi hit the same thing as Riddell here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/08/12/%23ubuntu-installer.txt06:32
macohe said try installing ubiquity and ubiquity-frontend-gtk to get the gtkwidgets thing it's looking for, but that didnt improve the situatoin06:33
TheMusoyup see what you mean.06:33
macooh i see where you can set the labelled by / label for stuff in glade06:34
macodo you think setting it in glade versus programmatically will change whether orca reads the id afterward?06:34
TheMusoNot sure, as I've never actually played with this myself.06:35
macoah ok yeah glade lets you set a "translateable" checkbox for the accessible name06:35
macowe're past translation freeze though06:35
TheMusoYeah, but why Orca is not considering the text on screen I don't know.06:36
macoif it's the same as the label, will the po do magic and make the translations match?06:36
macooh no, orca IS considering the text on the screen06:36
macoi got it to do that06:36
TheMusoSo what is the remaining problem?06:36
macoits just that its ALSO readin the variable name afterwad06:36
TheMusomaco: You might want to install accerciser into the environment, and have a look in accerciser to see what Orca is seeing...06:36
TheMusomaco: Seems the gtkwidgets.xml file has a hard-coded path in it.06:41
TheMusoWhats worse, is that the UI for ubiquity will need to be ported to pigi for oneiric.06:42
TheMusohrm no difference.06:46
macoaccerciser doesnt even see that there's a ubiquity window06:48
macoif i try running accerciser with gksu it crashes06:48
TheMusoProbably because the ubiquity window is running as root.06:48
TheMusoI wonder if its possible to check what user the GUI thread is running as.06:49
macoit's bedtime here06:50
TheMusonp thanks for doing as much as you have.06:50
macoso far i can at least get it to read the stuff it needs to read, if not stfu about the stuff it doesnt06:50
macothats at lp:~maco.m/ubiquity/bug749653 06:50
TheMusoooh thanks.06:50
* TheMuso decides to package it up and try it out.06:55
macoi looked a little into where the titles of the pages are coming from, but im not sure how to get it to read them. it seems like maybe this is like when you  have ajax and need commands telling the screenreader "hey look i updated something! go read it!"06:57
* AlanBell hugs maco again06:58
AlanBellawesome work so far06:58
macoTheMuso: when the pigi thing happens can the ubiquity devs be convinced to put the atk hints in *the first time*?06:59
TheMusomaco: Yes, I'll make sure of that, however I think they will be using .ui files again, just changing the code in python, but yes, I'll make a point of getting that checked out.07:00
TheMusomaco: Actually, even better, lets have an installer accessibility review at UDS. :)07:00
TheMusoAs for the titles, Orca may need to do a little scrounging around itself for those.07:01
leoquanthello erkan^ 08:31
ubottuYou're testing my patience!08:39
jussiok, so thats a temporary bot for you. please alert myself or tsimpson when your regular bot gets back08:39
UndiFineDthanks jussi 08:45
AlanBellhi ivanka 09:23
ivankahi AlanBell09:24
AlanBellso the ubuntu onscreen keyboard looks like this at the moment09:24
AlanBellbut I did some branding tweaks and mine looks like this now: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png09:24
AlanBellivanka: do you think you could help with a UI freeze exception to get that in Natty?09:25
* ivanka looks09:27
AlanBelland any feedback on colours and design would be great09:27
ivankaAlanBell: new definitely looks better and has better contrast09:28
AlanBelluses ubuntu font and some #dd481409:29
AlanBellthe pink bits are tones of the aubergine09:29
AlanBelland I added rounded corners09:29
ivankaAlanBell: marcus and otto aren't in yet. Will show to them and then hassle some people09:29
ivankaAlanBell: looks very nice :-)09:30
AlanBellthe code is in https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/onboard but I probably need to put it in a branch that isn't +junk09:30
AlanBelland I filed bug 75189109:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 751891 in onboard (Ubuntu) "onboard does not follow Ubuntu branding and looks dated" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75189109:31
ivankaAlanBell: have you pinged anyone about it? just so I can name names :-)09:31
AlanBellmost people in here have seen it09:32
AlanBellI mentioned it in #ayatana too09:32
AlanBellI want the design team to pick this up as a brandable element of the platform09:33
ivankaAlanBell: makes a lot of sense but to warn you, UI exceptions are getting harder and harder.09:38
ivankaAlanBell: that won't stop me trying though as this does look much much better09:38
JanCit's not like Onboard is in a lot of screenshots, I think, and the rest is sort of a themeing tweak?09:41
UndiFineDJanC, I doubt any exist for onboard on natty in the wild, and even those for maverick may be rare09:49
AlanBellpeople are taking screenshots09:50
AlanBellakgraner is working on the next version of the official ubuntu book for example09:50
UndiFineDmy first hit is on someone who replace onboard by something else on 10.10 spinoff09:53
AlanBellhowever, looking at the 5th edition of the book I see no screenshot of onboard09:53
AlanBelland very very little on a11y at all09:54
UndiFineDthe second valid hit: sept 25th 2010: http://ubuntuguide.net/onboardenable-simple-on-screen-keyboard-for-ubuntu-gnome09:54
AlanBellUndiFineD: the UI freeze concern is mainly about people writing books and manuals to be published soon after release09:54
UndiFineDwell I am in some of those teams, #ubuntu-manual has just appointed their new people09:55
ivankaAlanBell: Yes, am aware of that09:55
ivankaAlanBell: just looking with otto09:55
UndiFineD#ubuntu-tour is very inactive09:55
ivankaAlanBell: wondering if we have enough contrast, this being primarily for accessibility?09:56
UndiFineDit could be used by anyone without a keyboard attached09:57
ivankaAlanBell: how valuable is the colour coding? I am wondering if it should just be white keys with black/very dark text?09:58
ivankaAlanBell: the rounding is all good09:59
AlanBellivanka: not really too sure about the value of the colour coding, I did make sure the main keys were the highest contrast, followed by the numbers10:01
UndiFineDI am not sure it is fully valid according to the WCAG standards, but it looks very usable to me10:01
AlanBellshift and space don't need contrast so have the boldest colours10:01
AlanBellthe orange and aubergine on the right bring up overlay layers for symbols and other stuff10:02
AlanBellI changed the opacity of them a bit10:02
AlanBellivanka: it is for accessibility, but I want it also to be useful for tablet PCs and touchscreens10:03
AlanBellbecause then more people will maintain it10:03
ivankaAlanBell: all good points10:04
=== API is now known as apinheiro
AlanBellhi all13:02
AlanBellif people could be around in about 24 hours from now that would be great13:03
PendulumAlanBell: that was a bit vague...13:04
AlanBellthe ubuntu.com web team want to share some new designs with us to get feedback from an a11y perspective13:04
PendulumI suspect it is too early for charlie-tca, but I'll try to be here13:04
Pendulumcan you e-mail the list?13:04
AlanBellI will ask yaili to do that when she picks a time13:07
PendulumAlanBell: great, thanks :)13:07
Pendulumhi ivanka :)13:07
ivankahi pendulum13:07
PendulumAlanBell: you have access to approving blog comments, right?13:45
Pendulumcan you look at the most recent one? I don't quite know what it's talking about so I haven't approved it, but I'm wondering if it relates to one of your bugs13:46
Pendulum(feel free to approve it if it does)13:46
AlanBellI approved it already and it does13:46
Pendulumah, okay :)13:46
AlanBellit related to me being confused by the map bit in the installer13:47
AlanBellit is a bit odd if you are using just the keyboard13:47
AlanBello/ joanmarie 14:23
joanmariedutchie: ping and hi14:24
joanmarieWell, I'm about to go into a meeting. But dutchie if you are interested in a collaborator on the Simon persona, I'd love to help. My DayJob is 15 years (and counting) as an instructor and consultant teaching individuals who are blind or visually impaired (ages 3 - seniors)14:28
dutchieooh, that might be nice14:28
joanmarieup to you14:29
dutchiei haven't had any time to work on it due to university :(14:29
joanmarieI don't like to interfere14:29
joanmarieBut it might be fun to help14:29
joanmariebtw I'm also the Orca project lead14:29
* AlanBell wonders what joanmarie thinks about bug 74970014:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 749700 in gnome-orca (Ubuntu) "Default button should be "help"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/74970014:32
joanmarieI will look after the meeting14:32
joanmarieWell, given my time-telling challenges, lemme look at that bug now AlanBell :-)14:37
joanmarieAlanBell: bug commented upon14:52
hajourAlanBell, are there differences in colour by the numbers and fonts.i am not sure you see. by this >>>   http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png14:54
hajourlooks very nice btw AlanBell 14:54
leoquantthats a board i would like to have14:56
hajouryes that's nice thought that board14:57
leoquantpage -up and down -button would be nice for me14:57
hajourand function buttons14:57
leoquantno more double tabbing the buttons: uujkkj14:57
hajoura i have the same problem if i use my left hand double tabbing14:58
hajouralso i cant use it only very short time my left hand14:59
joanmarieso is the reason Caribou is not being used compatibiliy issues with Unity, or stability issues, or something else?14:59
joanmariemind you I like the bigger buttons on that screen shot as I have hand tremors and my aim is lousy15:00
joanmarieanyway dutchie my address is joanied at gnome dot org. If you would like input/collaboration, ping me that way and/or via irc (I'm either joanie or joanmarie)15:02
AlanBellleoquant: page up and page down are behind the orange overlay15:04
AlanBellleoquant: just try running onboard, you have it installed already15:04
AlanBell!info caribou15:05
ubottuPackage caribou does not exist in maverick15:05
hajourand is there difference in colour in numbers and fonts ? 15:05
* hajour is wondering about that15:05
AlanBellthe numbers are a different colour to the keys15:06
AlanBellbut only because I made them slightly different15:06
hajourmm ok . i was doubting about that15:07
joanmarieAlanBell: This page is out of date, but https://live.gnome.org/Caribou15:07
AlanBelljoanmarie: I have never used caribou, onboard is in the repos and is installed by default on the CD15:07
joanmariecode is here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/caribou15:07
* hajour have learned last weeks more English words :)15:07
joanmariefair enough15:07
AlanBellit certainly isn't due to compatibility with unity, onboard isn't entirely compatible :(15:07
hajourbtw who more go to uds from accessibility ? just curious :)15:09
joanmarieI'd be interested to find out if Caribou is.15:09
AlanBellso would I15:09
joanmarieJust today there was an interesting bug filed15:09
AlanBellI suspect not15:09
* joanmarie looks for it15:09
hajourhee charlie-tca 15:09
ubottuGnome bug 646980 in default "Core/UI separation" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed]15:09
AlanBellthe problem is the way unity draws itself kind of outside or over the top of compiz15:09
joanmarieThe implication being that a full separation should, I'd think, make it possible for a nux(?) caribou15:10
joanmariei.e. it would look more incorporated15:10
AlanBellI just wanted to make onboard a bit more shiny and pretty so that the unity people will pick it up and incorporate it15:10
hajouro sorry if i am still a bit much switch fast often from subject.meds not yet full work15:10
joanmarieAs I stated in that bug, we're doing something in that direction for Orca15:10
joanmarieso we "look native" wherever we are15:11
joanmarieI may do a proof of concept using Nux. Depends on my time and what the learning curve is15:11
AlanBellone thing I would like to do with orca is get an easy to install nicer voice15:11
joanmarieYou know what...15:12
AlanBellwhich is more of a speech dispatcher thing really15:12
joanmarieThe Andalucían government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival15:12
joanmariethey are my favorite voices now15:12
joanmariealas, not english15:12
joanmariebut I wonder what exactly it was they did15:12
joanmarieand then the next question would be: What would it take to cause that work to happen in the other Festival voices15:13
joanmarieit is my understanding that Festival works with speech-dispatcher15:13
AlanBellit does15:13
hajourmaybe they have slow or faster the voice joanmarie ?15:13
AlanBellopenmary has some awesome voices too15:13
hajoursee AlanBell 15:13
joanmariehajour: I don't follow?15:14
paul_hwe need a proper speech-dispatcher module for the swift voices too15:14
dutchiejoanmarie: will do, thanks15:14
joanmarieI mean, the voices all can be made slower or faster15:14
joanmariepaul_h: hey, we're in all the same places :-)15:14
hajourThe Andalucían government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival15:14
hajour<joanmarie> they are my favorite voices now15:14
hajour<joanmarie> alas, not english15:14
joanmariethe problem with swift is that, well, when it's swift it doesn't sound good15:14
joanmariehajour: right. That's not a speed issue15:14
joanmarieyou have to listen to their custom voices15:15
hajouri am not a dev joanmarie 15:15
joanmariebut they just sound more natural15:15
joanmariethat's okay15:15
joanmarieyou don't have to be15:15
joanmarieif you are able to hear the voices, just compare what they did with the normal spanish voices15:15
hajouri just in IRC IT world from date 30 nov. 201015:15
joanmarietheirs are way, way better15:15
AlanBellpaul_h: got a link to info about the swift voices?15:16
hajouri just know that the voices from open mary where made much improved by AlanBell 15:16
AlanBellthe default orca voice would remain espeak as that is titchy and will go on the CD15:16
hajoura new word learned15:17
joanmariefor me too15:18
AlanBellvoices can take up a lot of disk space15:18
paul_hAlanBell: www.cepstral.com15:18
AlanBellnice, thanks15:19
hajouri wait till this is subject is ready else it will go be some confusing i think15:19
paul_hthe "eloquence" voice windows users like doesn't appear to be for sale for linux anymore 15:20
hajour? paul_h ?15:21
hajouris eloquence a name ?15:21
joanmariepaul_h: well, the equivalent is voxin. The problem as I understand it, is that while they sell it, they are not doing much (if any) development. 15:22
paul_hJoanie: no, they're not selling it anymore15:22
joanmariehajour: Eloquence is the name of a windows synthesizer used by (among other software) the leading commercial windows screen reader15:23
hajoura ok thanks joanmarie 15:24
joanmariepaul_h: huh. I see that on their site. Missed the announcement (obviously)15:24
joanmarieoh well, it had those crasher issues Eloquence had from years back. :-/15:24
hajourjust want to note something.that the primary schools 18 of them are hanging on the accessibility part for to go use edubuntu/ubuntu15:25
leoquantAlanBell, I am busy with my health insurrance for additional hardware/keyboards/even computers. so i would like "onboard" as a hardware product!15:26
hajournetherlands primary schools15:26
hajourbecause netherland is eager to get children whit issues to hold on normal schools so much they can15:28
hajourwas just to inform you all15:28
hajourif we got a good accessibility i can get at least 18 primary schools big change they go use edubuntu/ubuntu15:29
hajourfor to start15:29
joanmariehajour: That's cool. The Andalucían government in Spain has a similar interest for its citizens. As a result, they have been contributing to GNOME a11y projects. 15:29
joanmarieWhen governments are interested and/or concerned, it can be a very good thing. :-)15:30
joanmarieIt's too bad we don't see similar interest from more corporations.15:30
hajouryep if government will give the good example15:30
hajourjoanmarie,  i cant fill in my tax forms from internet or either on paper because of very small fonts.the size cant go be increased.and there are also no audio to listen to for reading problems15:32
joanmarieugh. That's not good. :-(15:32
hajourwhat i find very annoying15:32
hajourand that is a small part from it15:33
hajourits also by job sites from government and well fair15:33
hajourseams me government have to let see a good example before to go pointing to others15:34
hajourwhat i will go tell them to15:35
hajourso i had called many times to them (tax office).last week i had get a letter if i not go fill in form from 2009 i get mm not know how to say in english. boete (pay money to them)because i am to late :S.so i called them whit again ask for help15:38
hajourthen i can get help for 2010 but not for 2009 because i had called to late ?15:39
hajouri lost count on how many times i have called them in a year15:39
hajourso 2009 is still problem not solved15:39
hajourthey asked or i was satisfied.i asked honest truth?15:40
hajouri feel very abandoned by government system15:40
hajourthen she said annoyed you can fill  in on paper15:41
hajouri said ever seen how small that font s are.15:41
hajourshe said its just normal fonts.i said yes.so do you think someone whit bad sight would be able to read it or dyslectic15:42
hajourhave a good day miss.15:43
hajourand she hang up15:43
hajourso then that day i decided to hold a petition on europian lvl for to give government a good push in right direction to make internet program use accessible15:45
hajourand to go to brussel to give all assignments to IT and issues minister with press being around15:46
hajourand i will go stay nag and nag till they do something on it15:47
hajourso my new project was born.15:48
hajoursorry for flooding again btw15:48
hajouro charlie-tca i go to uds15:49
charlie-tcaGreat! Glad to hear it15:49
hajourjust have seen in mail this morning for i was go to sleep15:49
JanCwho else is going from the a11y team?15:50
hajouri hope i will be able to help others15:50
charlie-tcaIt is a good thing to go to, when you can!15:50
hajoura11y team?15:50
charlie-tcaThat is the only one approved so far, I think15:50
hajourJanC,  you can write and read french write?15:51
JanCI can read French, but writing would probably contain errors  ☺15:51
hajourif i have the petition ready the letter all what is going to be send around.i want it in different languages15:52
hajourso many as possible15:52
JanCah, best ask that to native speakers then15:52
hajouro btw you think it would be all-right if i go give the assignments in brussel i go invite minister from IC to the UDS what comes after the one from may15:54
hajouri know she is pro open source you see15:54
hajourhai jono :)15:55
JanChajour: minister for IT-related things in the Netherlands?15:55
hajourminister kroese15:55
JanCwhat party is she from?15:55
jonohe hajour15:56
leoquantJanC, liberals15:56
JanCoh, you mean Kroes, she's not a minister, but something similar indeed15:56
hajourshe do all things on europian lvl15:57
leoquantkroes is an europolit.15:57
hajouralso the person from accessibility things i want invite then15:58
hajourfrom europe15:58
JanCI don't think she has time to attend a complete UDS, but it would already be some help if one of her assistants would come of course  ;)15:58
hajourkicking only against the low layer do not help 15:58
leoquantshe used to have anti-kartel portef.15:58
hajourbut i will go try she self will come15:59
hajouri talked to her 1 time she is very nice person15:59
JanCanyway, I think there are already laws about accessibility for the government...15:59
hajouryes but only on paper 15:59
hajourin reality nothing happens16:00
hajouralmost nothing16:00
hajourafter years of meetings i want to see results16:01
JanCit would help if a major newspaper or TV station would shame them about this software16:01
hajouryes and UndiFineD  have worked for tv16:01
hajouri go use all contacts16:01
hajourhe knows a lot of people there and trough them well just chain reaction16:02
hajourwell cant help it if i have something in my mind i not have rest before i really have done it16:03
hajourbtw i asked UndiFineD  if there was a meeting.but he said he thought there was no meeting.think he thought i really needed to sleep :P16:05
JanChm, new earthquake in Japan?  :-/16:07
hajouruch really?16:08
JanCthey just said in on the radio news16:09
hajouri almost never listen radio.much commercial.and the commercial is so very loud 16:10
hajourhurts my ears16:10
hajouro btw i cant load the meeting log with chromium browser at all16:11
JanCwe have radio stations with less commercial music, and radio 1 has lots of news & explanation about the news from 16-20h16:11
hajourfrom belgian or netherland?16:11
JanCexplanations about the backgrounds behind the news16:12
JanCFlemish Radio 116:12
hajoura ok16:12
hajouris that also trough internet?16:13
hajouri have not a radio you see16:13
charlie-tca7.4 earthquake with a 1 meter tsunumi16:15
JanC7.4 is a lot16:15
charlie-tca1 meter tsunami (wave in the ocean)16:15
hajourmmm i hope there are not many victims16:16
hajouri hope also rx007 will be all-right16:17
JanChajour: the Flemish public radio's streams are here: http://www.digitaleradio.be/dab/hoeluisteren/pc/help/Links_streams.html16:17
hajoura thank you JanC 16:17
JanCif you like classical music, you can listen to Klara  ☺16:18
hajourJanC,  i cant load the accessibility log with chromium browser btw.i not yet tried with firefox yet16:18
hajouryes i like classical music16:18
hajourhave played myself classical music for years before my hands started to nag16:19
hajouri played in harmony with clarinet16:20
hajour16 years long16:20
JanCnice  ☺16:21
JanCis UndiFineD going to UDS too?16:23
hajourchakofsky , paganini,beethoven ,brams,stravinsky ect16:24
hajourno only me16:24
Pendulumhajour: congrats on UDS 16:24
hajourthank you Pendulum :)16:24
* Pendulum did not get sponsorship so will not be there16:24
hajour? i thought you would get it honest say Pendulum 16:25
PendulumI've been to 2 and I suspect they wanted some new people16:25
hajoura ok16:26
hajouri hoped you would be there to.wanted to meet you :)16:26
PendulumI'd really wanted to be there, but I guess it's not to be :)16:26
hajouri really learn much from you every time again16:27
JanCalso, if they want to alternate between some people, they will probably prefer European people for European UDS & Northern-American people for American UDS ?16:28
AlanBellmy understanding is that they don't really care about that16:29
AlanBelleven though it would be logical16:29
hajourmm seams me it ould be good all from over the world meet each other would be a good thing16:29
* Pendulum shrugs16:29
hajourwould i meant16:29
PendulumI probably can't do Orlando this year so on that side it doesn't really matter to me16:29
JanCthere are peopel from all over the world anyway16:29
hajouri am curious and nerves to go to uds16:30
hajouris there also go someone to there who speaks dutch like me .?16:31
Pendulumhajour: I don't know. You might want to ask in the dutch loco channels16:31
hajouri mean if i not know a subtend  word in english16:32
hajourbah surtend not know the right word16:32
JanChm, Jelmer might go16:32
hajourok i not yet have meet jelmer thought16:33
JanCnot sure if thisfred will be there (from the UbuntuOne team at Canonical)16:33
hajouris jelmer thisfred or are that 2 different persons?16:35
JanC2 different persons16:36
JanCjelmer is going16:36
JanChe's in #ubuntu-nl  ☺16:37
hajourbut i have to help my daughter now with making pancakes have to tell here how to do some of the things16:37
hajoura ok is he there also in about a few hours from now?16:37
hajouri am in the channel now JanC 16:37
hajourtot later16:41
hajourtill later sorry16:41
hajourwrong language16:42
Pendulumcharlie-tca: how early can you be up tomorrow?18:56
charlie-tcaHow early you want me to be?18:56
PendulumAlanBell: ^^18:56
Pendulumwe've got design team people who want to come in and talk tomorrow :)18:56
Pendulumabout the website18:57
charlie-tcaNot sure I am the best one for that.18:57
PendulumI know18:57
Pendulumjust thought you might have opinions on it18:58
UndiFineDwhich site18:58
UndiFineDor is this all ubuntu sites in general ?18:59
charlie-tcaOf course I do, but ... :-(18:59
PendulumUndiFineD: all the ubuntu sites19:01
Pendulum think19:01
PendulumI think19:01
UndiFineDok, but in general none of the sites would fit accessibility, it is hard to be stylish and and accessible19:02
UndiFineDI have a good approach here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml19:02
UndiFineDbut it is close to the best one can do19:03
charlie-tcaFor starters, they could approve the theme AlanBell requested a long time ago19:03
charlie-tcaAnytime it takes more than 6 months to make such a simple decision says you don't really care.19:04
UndiFineDyeah, I am taking it to the extreme, we want full AAA compliance19:05
* UndiFineD is away for a moment19:06
AlanBellno, just about ubuntu.com19:17
AlanBellthat was no to "all ubuntu sites in general"19:20
PendulumAlanBell: do we have a time yet?19:24
AlanBellafternoon, London time19:25
AlanBellnothing more specific19:25
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hajour Message to #ubuntu-accessibility throttled due to flooding20:01
hajourwell i not go explain  something again20:02
hajouri not go type for nothing 20:02
hajourUndiFineD, said nothing was to see from it20:02
AlanBellthere is no floodbot here20:05
hajoursee message above20:06
hajourwas to see in freenode this message20:06
hajouri cant use pastebin i cant link to see meetinglogs what are attached to chromium20:08
hajourbecause chromium is much to slow loading20:08
hajourso i had explained what issues where in netherlands internet and programs for accessibility thats the onnly thing i had type longh20:10
hajourlike above20:10
* hajour is go stop typing because else same will happen again20:10
hajouri go do something else till in about a hour. need a cooldown on the moment20:13
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