[00:05] hello, does anyone know how to find the desktop effects in natty narwal? [00:09] frank: What desktop effects are you looking for? [00:12] the ones that make my windows go wobbly for instance [00:27] * maco branches ubiquity [00:28] Gah he leaves... *sigh* [00:29] maco: If we are unable to get these done for Natty, I know it would be useful to get them into Vinux. [00:42] TheMuso: there should be a tutorial for this [00:44] TheMuso: have you played with this before? i'm a bit confused with doing this programmatically instead of in the glade file [00:44] Quick question for people currently in here. With the accessibility profiles, do you think its safe to assume that any new users created on an installed system should also have accessibility enabled? [00:45] maco: Sorry I haven't. [00:46] I am working with a patch from a regular contributor who thinks that any new user accounts that are created will want various accessibility bits enabled for their account. [00:46] oh i found the wiki page i had up earlier [00:46] http://live.gnome.org/GAP/AtkGuide#GAP.2BAC8-AtkGuide.2BAC8-GtkAtk.Using_GTK.2B-_and_ATK_to_Build_Accessible_Applications <-- [02:15] TheMuso: how do you use orca? [02:15] i'm confused [02:16] i'm trying to run ubiquity locally (and just not do the apply step) with orca to test, but orca isn't reading the ubiquity window at all [02:16] maco: What do you mean? [02:16] You need to enable accessibility for a start. [02:16] And restart your session. [02:16] oh. [02:16] And if you are running ubiquity in a KDE session, not everything is correctly set up. [02:16] i installed ubiquity-frontend-gtk [02:17] Right. [02:22] * maco sets up a vm [02:40] * maco scowls [02:40] at-spi crashed while running that test [02:40] and quitting orca doesn't quit it [02:41] it asks are you sure, and if you click cancel, the "are you sure?" window closes and orca keeps running. if you click "quit" it does nothing [02:41] hmm or maybe it just takes forever [02:43] Orca should quit when you click quit. [02:45] it apparently quits after a lag [02:46] wow, its really annoying using apt-get with orca running [02:46] Disable speech with insert + s [02:46] Then re-enable it with the same keystroke. [02:54] TheMuso: thank you [02:54] np [03:09] it apparently doesnt show the partition stepif you're on an empty disk. [03:29] right [03:29] maco: Does it totally freeze, or does it ask something different? [03:30] TheMuso: skips it [03:31] ah ok [03:33] my first attempted-patch was to make the labels (instead of radio button id's) be read for the radio buttons on the partition page. so i need to actually have it come up ;-) [03:56] Right. [04:25] TheMuso: so, programmatically, there ARE accelerators for Forward/Back -- i can see them now that gtk has failed to use a proper theme [04:25] when it looks like Windows 98, i can see that there are accelerators [04:25] (and they work) [04:32] Heh wonderful. [04:34] TheMuso: im having a lot of trouble with testing. at-spi keeps crashing [04:35] hmm wait maybe this is my fault [04:35] Thats weird, I don't ever get crashes here. [04:35] well, at-spi-registryd becomes non-responsive, and i never get the partition screen [04:35] right [04:35] (im using today's daily live image) [04:35] Sounds like ubiquity is doing something funky. [04:36] How are you running ubiquity? [04:36] from the terminal [04:36] Ok, are you running it with gksu? [04:36] I think its trying to get root privs but can't. [04:37] oooh could try [04:37] maco: It may also be worth running with the blindness a11y profile, as that will completely set things up such that things should work/ [04:37] i.e boot the image using an a11y profile, and then run ubiquity using gksu. [04:37] i did boot with the screen reader option [04:37] Hrm ok, so trying with gksu/root privs is the next option. [04:37] As ubiquity needs it. [04:38] i used gksu this time, and it still went language, "get updates from internet?", time zone, keyboard... [04:39] it should have asked about partitioning before the timezone stuff i think [04:40] Yes it shoudl have. Is the disk you are trying to use pre-partitioned, or empty? [04:40] it should have an existing partition [04:40] Right. [04:40] Let me grab the latest daily, and have a squiz myself. [04:40] because im booting the iso over top of a maverick vm [04:40] its possible my changes just broke that .py and it fails silently [04:41] but i dont know how to make it fail LOUDLY [04:42] * maco wonders if python has anything like "perl -c" [04:43] I don't know. [04:54] oh i see. the little underlines for accelerators appear only when you hold down alt [04:57] I disagree with that personally. [05:04] TheMuso: since thats no use if you cant see it happen? [05:06] maco: No, for those who want to use them need to visually rpes a key before they know what they are. [05:09] dang it. was there a meeting today? [05:09] yes [05:13] Nafai: You didn't miss much. [05:15] TheMuso: its gotta be something about my changes [05:15] bcause i just tried it in a vm unmodified and it came up [05:16] though orca got silent after the first page, oddly [05:16] * maco headdesk [05:16] i wonder if i just need to "import atk" ... [05:17] (and at-spi still crashed with my unmodified version) [05:18] TheMuso: Ok. I meant to be here, but I was sleeping. :) [05:21] maco: Could I see your changes? I think there are atk calls in the pygtk bindings but not entirely sure. [05:21] TheMuso: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590532 has the chunk i was adding in to ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py [05:21] maco: Thanks. [05:22] (and adding "import atk" didnt help) [05:22] putting that chunk in still kills that page [05:22] maco: What does self refer to in this context? [05:22] maco: Actually, there may be debugging in /var/log/installer/debug or one of the other files in that directory. [05:23] TheMuso: the page [05:23] maco: ok [05:24] oooh hey yes it DOES have debugging there! thank you [05:24] np [05:26] hmm and the debug log is saying invalid syntax at line 148...which is a few lines after my changes. so maybe i messed up parentheses or something [05:28] ...and there are .pyc files. i hate .pyc files. they destroy debugability what with their persistence beyond my changes -_- [05:29] heh [05:29] I agree. [05:31] * TheMuso regrets deleting his ubiquity branch. It takes ages to download again, particularly over an international connection that has been slow to Aus recently... [05:31] YAY [05:32] oh wait dang. this is with my stuff commented [05:32] well. now that ive sorted out the steps required (rm .pyc, then gksu ubiquity, then tail /var/log/installer/debug) maybe i can figure out why my code go boom [05:34] * maco headdesk [05:34] no "could not import module..." errors this time like before [05:34] but again it doesnt show [05:35] if its fine with my syntax, why is it ignoring the entire file? -_- [05:36] maco: I'd get the original and your modified version and get a unified diff. [05:37] I always find unified diffs to help me work out what may be going on. [05:37] TheMuso: my modifications are just that one chunk of lines being inserted...the context around it isn't very helpful [05:37] Right. [05:38] know a way to run it interactively? [05:39] No, my python skills are still very much undeveloped. [05:39] Someone in ubuntu-dev or a python channel would know for sure. [05:42] heyyy progress [05:42] maco: One thing I don't understand with your fragment is why you think the atk functions are addressable from the self object... I would think you want to get them from the gtk object... [05:42] maco: oooh whats the problem? [05:43] i commented out all but one radio button's-worth and that still failed so then i commented out the two lines of that button's code that use atk relationships and the page is now showing [05:43] so the .get_accessible()'s are at least working [05:44] Right. [05:44] and to answer that: [05:44] I think you only need one relationship, i.e label for, or labelled by,. [05:44] the docs im reading show both in use, but i could try just commenting one [05:44] self.atk_resize_use_free = self.resize_use_free.get_accessible() <--- .get_accessible() returns an atk.Object [05:44] so my self.atk_resize_use_free is of type atk.Object [05:45] ah ok [05:45] that makes sense. [05:46] ok so commenting one and leaving the other goes back to it being invisible [05:46] Right... [05:46] atk.RELATION_LABEL_FOR <-- im guessing this constant is having a problem [05:47] well the atk relation constants in general [05:47] or maybe im just using add_relation() wrong. i only saw a C example of that one [05:47] hrm. [05:47] Worth digging throught eh pygtk bindings I think [05:47] the [05:50] maco: There is a piece of example code in the python gtk2 source: Let me pastebin it. [05:50] i think i found it [05:50] maco: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590579/ [05:50] add_relationship() not add_relation() ... [05:50] maco: Right but I think you should look at that code, as it deals with relation sets. [05:51] * hajour is going to uds in may :)) [05:51] it works! [05:52] maco: sweet. [05:52] hajour: Congratulations! [05:52] ye still not can believe it :) [05:52] just have read the mail [05:52] http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-06-21.01.moin.txt [05:52] and thank you [05:53] * UndiFineD looks jealously at hajour [05:53] congratulations my dear [05:55] :) hehe thank you my dear [05:58] TheMuso: ok so its less sucky but still not right. its reading the label (yay!) but also still reading the variable name for the radio button (boo!) [05:58] btw that will not go be a habit. XD saying nicknames in chat [05:59] maco: Probably best to set the atk name for the radio button. I am guessing something like in the example I pastebinned above. [06:00] btw already got a nice nick name her in chat hajour [06:00] So self.radiobuttonblah.set_name("Name of radio button") [06:02] ok i go have some breakfast then sleep and reading logs again :) [06:23] TheMuso: what im seeing happen now is that when i get to that page it reads the first one's label twice, then the radio button id. if i move to another radio button or back to it, labels are read once then the radio button id. im not sure why it's doubling or why its reading the id afterward, but adding self.atk_resize_use_free.set_name(self.resize_use_free.get_text()) doesn't make it stop reading the id [06:31] maco: I am looking through glade now, and this can all be done in glade, assigning the label for something etc. [06:31] * TheMuso digs up the ui file for the partitioning page. [06:31] TheMuso: translations... [06:31] doing it in glade means hardcoding it in english [06:32] also, some of them make glade throw an error and refuse to open [06:32] maco: I am sure glade allows for translations. But I was thinking assigning the label for and label by stuff [06:32] hrm interesting. [06:32] i hit the same thing as Riddell here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/08/12/%23ubuntu-installer.txt [06:33] he said try installing ubiquity and ubiquity-frontend-gtk to get the gtkwidgets thing it's looking for, but that didnt improve the situatoin [06:33] yup see what you mean. [06:34] oh i see where you can set the labelled by / label for stuff in glade [06:34] do you think setting it in glade versus programmatically will change whether orca reads the id afterward? [06:35] Not sure, as I've never actually played with this myself. [06:35] ah ok yeah glade lets you set a "translateable" checkbox for the accessible name [06:35] we're past translation freeze though [06:36] Yeah, but why Orca is not considering the text on screen I don't know. [06:36] if it's the same as the label, will the po do magic and make the translations match? [06:36] oh no, orca IS considering the text on the screen [06:36] i got it to do that [06:36] So what is the remaining problem? [06:36] its just that its ALSO readin the variable name afterwad [06:36] maco: You might want to install accerciser into the environment, and have a look in accerciser to see what Orca is seeing... [06:41] maco: Seems the gtkwidgets.xml file has a hard-coded path in it. [06:42] Whats worse, is that the UI for ubiquity will need to be ported to pigi for oneiric. [06:46] hrm no difference. [06:48] accerciser doesnt even see that there's a ubiquity window [06:48] if i try running accerciser with gksu it crashes [06:48] Probably because the ubiquity window is running as root. [06:48] Lovely. [06:49] I wonder if its possible to check what user the GUI thread is running as. [06:50] it's bedtime here [06:50] np thanks for doing as much as you have. [06:50] so far i can at least get it to read the stuff it needs to read, if not stfu about the stuff it doesnt [06:50] Right. [06:50] thats at lp:~maco.m/ubiquity/bug749653 [06:50] ooh thanks. [06:55] * TheMuso decides to package it up and try it out. [06:57] i looked a little into where the titles of the pages are coming from, but im not sure how to get it to read them. it seems like maybe this is like when you have ajax and need commands telling the screenreader "hey look i updated something! go read it!" [06:58] * AlanBell hugs maco again [06:58] awesome work so far [06:59] TheMuso: when the pigi thing happens can the ubiquity devs be convinced to put the atk hints in *the first time*? [07:00] maco: Yes, I'll make sure of that, however I think they will be using .ui files again, just changing the code in python, but yes, I'll make a point of getting that checked out. [07:00] maco: Actually, even better, lets have an installer accessibility review at UDS. :) [07:01] As for the titles, Orca may need to do a little scrounging around itself for those. [08:31] hello erkan^ [08:39] !test [08:39] You're testing my patience! [08:39] ok, so thats a temporary bot for you. please alert myself or tsimpson when your regular bot gets back [08:45] thanks jussi [09:23] hi ivanka [09:24] hi AlanBell [09:24] so the ubuntu onscreen keyboard looks like this at the moment [09:24] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/oldonboard.png [09:24] but I did some branding tweaks and mine looks like this now: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png [09:25] ivanka: do you think you could help with a UI freeze exception to get that in Natty? [09:27] * ivanka looks [09:27] and any feedback on colours and design would be great [09:28] AlanBell: new definitely looks better and has better contrast [09:29] uses ubuntu font and some #dd4814 [09:29] the pink bits are tones of the aubergine [09:29] and I added rounded corners [09:29] AlanBell: marcus and otto aren't in yet. Will show to them and then hassle some people [09:29] thanks [09:30] AlanBell: looks very nice :-) [09:30] the code is in https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/onboard but I probably need to put it in a branch that isn't +junk [09:31] and I filed bug 751891 [09:31] Launchpad bug 751891 in onboard (Ubuntu) "onboard does not follow Ubuntu branding and looks dated" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/751891 [09:31] AlanBell: have you pinged anyone about it? just so I can name names :-) [09:32] most people in here have seen it [09:32] I mentioned it in #ayatana too [09:33] o/ [09:33] I want the design team to pick this up as a brandable element of the platform [09:38] AlanBell: makes a lot of sense but to warn you, UI exceptions are getting harder and harder. [09:38] AlanBell: that won't stop me trying though as this does look much much better [09:41] it's not like Onboard is in a lot of screenshots, I think, and the rest is sort of a themeing tweak? [09:49] JanC, I doubt any exist for onboard on natty in the wild, and even those for maverick may be rare [09:50] people are taking screenshots [09:50] akgraner is working on the next version of the official ubuntu book for example [09:53] my first hit is on someone who replace onboard by something else on 10.10 spinoff [09:53] however, looking at the 5th edition of the book I see no screenshot of onboard [09:54] and very very little on a11y at all [09:54] the second valid hit: sept 25th 2010: http://ubuntuguide.net/onboardenable-simple-on-screen-keyboard-for-ubuntu-gnome [09:54] UndiFineD: the UI freeze concern is mainly about people writing books and manuals to be published soon after release [09:55] well I am in some of those teams, #ubuntu-manual has just appointed their new people [09:55] AlanBell: Yes, am aware of that [09:55] AlanBell: just looking with otto [09:55] #ubuntu-tour is very inactive [09:56] AlanBell: wondering if we have enough contrast, this being primarily for accessibility? [09:57] it could be used by anyone without a keyboard attached [09:58] AlanBell: how valuable is the colour coding? I am wondering if it should just be white keys with black/very dark text? [09:59] AlanBell: the rounding is all good [10:01] ivanka: not really too sure about the value of the colour coding, I did make sure the main keys were the highest contrast, followed by the numbers [10:01] I am not sure it is fully valid according to the WCAG standards, but it looks very usable to me [10:01] shift and space don't need contrast so have the boldest colours [10:02] the orange and aubergine on the right bring up overlay layers for symbols and other stuff [10:02] I changed the opacity of them a bit [10:03] ivanka: it is for accessibility, but I want it also to be useful for tablet PCs and touchscreens [10:03] because then more people will maintain it [10:04] AlanBell: all good points === API is now known as apinheiro [13:02] hi all [13:03] if people could be around in about 24 hours from now that would be great [13:04] AlanBell: that was a bit vague... [13:04] the ubuntu.com web team want to share some new designs with us to get feedback from an a11y perspective [13:04] I suspect it is too early for charlie-tca, but I'll try to be here [13:04] can you e-mail the list? [13:07] I will ask yaili to do that when she picks a time [13:07] AlanBell: great, thanks :) [13:07] hi ivanka :) [13:07] hi pendulum [13:45] AlanBell: you have access to approving blog comments, right? [13:45] yup [13:46] can you look at the most recent one? I don't quite know what it's talking about so I haven't approved it, but I'm wondering if it relates to one of your bugs [13:46] (feel free to approve it if it does) [13:46] I approved it already and it does [13:46] ah, okay :) [13:47] it related to me being confused by the map bit in the installer [13:47] it is a bit odd if you are using just the keyboard [13:47] ah [14:23] o/ joanmarie [14:23] \o [14:24] dutchie: ping and hi [14:28] hello? [14:28] Well, I'm about to go into a meeting. But dutchie if you are interested in a collaborator on the Simon persona, I'd love to help. My DayJob is 15 years (and counting) as an instructor and consultant teaching individuals who are blind or visually impaired (ages 3 - seniors) [14:28] ooh, that might be nice [14:29] up to you [14:29] i haven't had any time to work on it due to university :( [14:29] I don't like to interfere [14:29] But it might be fun to help [14:29] btw I'm also the Orca project lead [14:32] * AlanBell wonders what joanmarie thinks about bug 749700 [14:32] Launchpad bug 749700 in gnome-orca (Ubuntu) "Default button should be "help"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749700 [14:32] I will look after the meeting [14:37] Well, given my time-telling challenges, lemme look at that bug now AlanBell :-) [14:52] AlanBell: bug commented upon [14:54] AlanBell, are there differences in colour by the numbers and fonts.i am not sure you see. by this >>> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png [14:54] looks very nice btw AlanBell [14:56] thats a board i would like to have [14:57] yes that's nice thought that board [14:57] page -up and down -button would be nice for me [14:57] and function buttons [14:57] no more double tabbing the buttons: uujkkj [14:57] gf [14:57] lk [14:58] a i have the same problem if i use my left hand double tabbing [14:59] also i cant use it only very short time my left hand [14:59] cant=can [14:59] so is the reason Caribou is not being used compatibiliy issues with Unity, or stability issues, or something else? [15:00] mind you I like the bigger buttons on that screen shot as I have hand tremors and my aim is lousy [15:02] anyway dutchie my address is joanied at gnome dot org. If you would like input/collaboration, ping me that way and/or via irc (I'm either joanie or joanmarie) [15:04] leoquant: page up and page down are behind the orange overlay [15:04] leoquant: just try running onboard, you have it installed already [15:05] !info caribou [15:05] Package caribou does not exist in maverick [15:05] and is there difference in colour in numbers and fonts ? [15:05] * hajour is wondering about that [15:06] the numbers are a different colour to the keys [15:06] but only because I made them slightly different [15:07] mm ok . i was doubting about that [15:07] AlanBell: This page is out of date, but https://live.gnome.org/Caribou [15:07] joanmarie: I have never used caribou, onboard is in the repos and is installed by default on the CD [15:07] code is here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/caribou [15:07] * hajour have learned last weeks more English words :) [15:07] fair enough [15:07] it certainly isn't due to compatibility with unity, onboard isn't entirely compatible :( [15:08] ugh [15:09] btw who more go to uds from accessibility ? just curious :) [15:09] I'd be interested to find out if Caribou is. [15:09] so would I [15:09] Just today there was an interesting bug filed [15:09] I suspect not [15:09] * joanmarie looks for it [15:09] hee charlie-tca [15:09] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646980 [15:09] Gnome bug 646980 in default "Core/UI separation" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed] [15:09] the problem is the way unity draws itself kind of outside or over the top of compiz [15:10] The implication being that a full separation should, I'd think, make it possible for a nux(?) caribou [15:10] i.e. it would look more incorporated [15:10] I just wanted to make onboard a bit more shiny and pretty so that the unity people will pick it up and incorporate it [15:10] o sorry if i am still a bit much switch fast often from subject.meds not yet full work [15:10] As I stated in that bug, we're doing something in that direction for Orca [15:11] so we "look native" wherever we are [15:11] interesting [15:11] I may do a proof of concept using Nux. Depends on my time and what the learning curve is [15:11] one thing I would like to do with orca is get an easy to install nicer voice [15:12] You know what... [15:12] which is more of a speech dispatcher thing really [15:12] The Andalucían government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival [15:12] they are my favorite voices now [15:12] alas, not english [15:12] but I wonder what exactly it was they did [15:13] and then the next question would be: What would it take to cause that work to happen in the other Festival voices [15:13] it is my understanding that Festival works with speech-dispatcher [15:13] it does [15:13] maybe they have slow or faster the voice joanmarie ? [15:13] openmary has some awesome voices too [15:13] see AlanBell [15:14] hajour: I don't follow? [15:14] we need a proper speech-dispatcher module for the swift voices too [15:14] joanmarie: will do, thanks [15:14] I mean, the voices all can be made slower or faster [15:14] paul_h: hey, we're in all the same places :-) [15:14] The Andalucían government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival [15:14] they are my favorite voices now [15:14] alas, not english [15:14] the problem with swift is that, well, when it's swift it doesn't sound good [15:14] hajour: right. That's not a speed issue [15:15] you have to listen to their custom voices [15:15] i am not a dev joanmarie [15:15] but they just sound more natural [15:15] that's okay [15:15] you don't have to be [15:15] if you are able to hear the voices, just compare what they did with the normal spanish voices [15:15] i just in IRC IT world from date 30 nov. 2010 [15:15] theirs are way, way better [15:16] paul_h: got a link to info about the swift voices? [15:16] i just know that the voices from open mary where made much improved by AlanBell [15:16] the default orca voice would remain espeak as that is titchy and will go on the CD [15:17] titchy? [15:17] small [15:17] ah [15:17] a new word learned [15:18] for me too [15:18] voices can take up a lot of disk space [15:18] AlanBell: www.cepstral.com [15:19] nice, thanks [15:19] i wait till this is subject is ready else it will go be some confusing i think [15:20] the "eloquence" voice windows users like doesn't appear to be for sale for linux anymore [15:21] ? paul_h ? [15:21] is eloquence a name ? [15:22] paul_h: well, the equivalent is voxin. The problem as I understand it, is that while they sell it, they are not doing much (if any) development. [15:22] Joanie: no, they're not selling it anymore [15:23] hajour: Eloquence is the name of a windows synthesizer used by (among other software) the leading commercial windows screen reader [15:24] a ok thanks joanmarie [15:24] paul_h: huh. I see that on their site. Missed the announcement (obviously) [15:24] oh well, it had those crasher issues Eloquence had from years back. :-/ [15:25] just want to note something.that the primary schools 18 of them are hanging on the accessibility part for to go use edubuntu/ubuntu [15:26] AlanBell, I am busy with my health insurrance for additional hardware/keyboards/even computers. so i would like "onboard" as a hardware product! [15:26] netherlands primary schools [15:28] because netherland is eager to get children whit issues to hold on normal schools so much they can [15:28] was just to inform you all [15:29] if we got a good accessibility i can get at least 18 primary schools big change they go use edubuntu/ubuntu [15:29] for to start [15:29] hajour: That's cool. The Andalucían government in Spain has a similar interest for its citizens. As a result, they have been contributing to GNOME a11y projects. [15:30] When governments are interested and/or concerned, it can be a very good thing. :-) [15:30] It's too bad we don't see similar interest from more corporations. [15:30] yep if government will give the good example [15:32] joanmarie, i cant fill in my tax forms from internet or either on paper because of very small fonts.the size cant go be increased.and there are also no audio to listen to for reading problems [15:32] ugh. That's not good. :-( [15:32] what i find very annoying [15:33] and that is a small part from it [15:33] its also by job sites from government and well fair [15:34] seams me government have to let see a good example before to go pointing to others [15:35]