[00:26] <JanC> does anybody know what nicks the "OMG Ubuntu"-people are using on IRC ?  (assuming they are on IRC...?)
[00:27] <Pendulum> humphreybc is humphreybc
[00:27] <Pendulum> dunno past that
[00:30] <nhandler> JanC: They have #omg!ubuntu! and #omg!ubuntu!ops . You could look at the user lists to find the people you need
[03:16] <jcastro> test
[03:16] <jcastro> test
[03:16] <nhandler> We can hear you jcastro :)
[03:17] <jcastro> heh
[04:20] <nigelb> heh, everyone's poking poor paultag :)
[04:55] <duanedesign> akgraner: kazam is another app other then gtk-recordmydektop that i have used
[06:58] <paultag> hahaha
[06:58] <paultag> thanks you guy
[06:58] <paultag> s
[06:58] <paultag> game was rough, I'm super bumed
[06:58] <nigelb> paultag: We all love you :)
[06:58] <paultag> love you too. Well, it's 2 AM and I'm pretty drunk, Got ya'lls text, one love!
[07:05] <nigelb> OMG OMGOMG
[07:05] <nigelb> Last night was my first year as Ubuntu member :)
[07:05] <pleia2> happy anniversary :)
[07:06] <nigelb> :)
[07:20] <duanedesign> hmm, mine 'expires' this October. What happens then? Do you have to go before the membership board again?
[07:20] <pleia2> no, it's self-renewing
[07:20] <pleia2> you just renew it for another two years
[07:21] <duanedesign> aha
[07:22] <duanedesign> BT membership needs to be self renewing
[07:22] <pleia2> yeah, I wish it was :\
[07:22] <pleia2> but for BT they want proof of sustained involvement
[07:23] <duanedesign> ill mention it and see
[07:56] <nigelb> morning folks
[08:14] <dholbach> good morning
[08:15] <nigelb> I'm not a lady gaga fan, but.. http://www.junauza.com/2011/04/lady-gaga-goes-gaga-over-ubuntu.html
[08:15] <pleia2> oh no, dholbach waking up means it's way past my bedtime
[08:15] <pleia2> morning dholbach :)
[08:15] <dholbach> hey pleia2
[08:15]  * dholbach hugs pleia2
[08:16]  * pleia2 hugs dholbach 
[08:16] <nigelb> bah, april fools joke and I fll for it
[08:16] <nigelb> pleia2: heh
[08:19] <AlanBell> morning all
[08:19] <nigelb> hey AlanBell
[08:19] <AlanBell> looking forward to UDS nigelb?
[08:19] <nigelb> AlanBell: I dunno, did you see my later posts?
[08:22] <AlanBell> well I hope you get there
[08:22] <nigelb> Me too :)
[08:23] <AlanBell> the dinner on Thursday looks good http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/meet-daniela/
[08:24] <AlanBell> anyone going to UDS is encouraged to join in with that one
[08:24]  * AlanBell isn't going though
[08:24] <nigelb> nice
[08:25] <JanC> nigelb: in the Netherlands there *is* a well-known singer & TV host in the IRC channels, so it could have been true...   ;)
[08:25] <nigelb> JanC: NICE
[08:29] <JanC> actually, she's in #ubuntu-women too
[08:48] <kim0> Morning
[09:08] <jussi> I had a fairly well known singer from iceland over last night :D
[09:08] <czajkowski> Aloha
[09:08] <jussi> good morning czajkowski!
[09:08] <czajkowski> jussi: howdy
[09:31] <czajkowski> *yawns*
[09:31] <czajkowski> so did not sleep well at all last night
[09:50] <popey> morning all
[09:55] <czajkowski> popey: ello, any luck with the mini9 ?
[10:03] <popey> honestly, not touched it yet.
[10:03] <popey> will take a look tonight
[10:03] <popey> it glared at me as I left the house this morning
[10:06] <czajkowski> no bother
[10:10] <jussi> czajkowski: hows the back treating you? any better today?
[10:10] <czajkowski> god bit better thanks
[10:10] <czajkowski> a few days of just lying down and not moving has helped
[10:11] <jussi> czajkowski: excellent, hope it continues to improve.
[10:11] <czajkowski> me too thanks
[10:16] <popey> wonder if we can get jcastro to wear a streaming head-cam at UDS so we can all follow along with what sessions he's in :)
[10:16] <jussi> popey: that would be epic :D
[10:17] <jussi> sigh... and this ubuntu server image doesnt work for me. /me redownloads :(
[10:46] <AlanBell> akgraner: ping
[10:50] <jussi> AlanBell: if she isnt asleep now she should be :P
[10:50] <AlanBell> yeah I know
[10:52] <akgraner> AlanBell, pong
[10:52] <AlanBell> good morning akgraner
[10:52] <akgraner> morning :-)
[10:53] <akgraner> still working on the good part ;-p
[10:53] <AlanBell> :)
[10:53] <akgraner> what's up?
[10:53] <AlanBell> I have done some updates to onboard that I am trying to get through as a UI freeze exception (although I don't really know what I am doing with that)
[10:54] <AlanBell> just wondered if that was going to mess up screenshots for the book or anything
[10:54] <AlanBell> going from http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/oldonboard.png
[10:54] <AlanBell> to http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png or something like that
[10:55]  * akgraner looks
[10:55] <AlanBell> and possibly with the letters in the centre of the keycaps if someone can help me do that (hint hint people)
[10:56] <akgraner> I don't think it will, but I just made a note of it to check when I do the final review...:-)
[10:56] <akgraner> thanks!
[10:58] <nigelb> AlanBell: awesome onboard is awesome
[10:58] <JanC> alternatively: it might be good to add something about a11y to the book ☺
[10:59] <akgraner> JanC I'll mention something to the editors for Edition 7
[11:00] <akgraner> I mean publisher not editor grrrr
[11:17] <popey> bug 749660
[11:17] <popey> bah!
[11:22] <nigelb> pad.lv/749660
[11:39] <duanedesign> 'lo all
[12:07] <daker> hey kim0 kimos.com seems to be down
[12:08] <kim0> daker: yes it seems so indeed .. I don't directly control it, so will need some time to figure out what has happened
[12:09] <daker> tyt
[14:16] <jussi> hehe, did anyone realise UDS ends on friday the 13th.... :P
[14:19] <Pici> dun dun dunnnnn
[14:20]  * nhandler didn't even realize we had a Friday the 13th coming up
[14:23] <nigelb> oh boi
[14:23] <jussi> UDS takes place on Monday 9th - Friday 13th May from 9.00am - 6.00pm each day.
[14:24] <tsimpson> there are 3 next year
[14:25] <tsimpson> in January, April and July

[14:26] <jussi> ooh, my mums birthday will be on the 13th next year then.
[14:26] <jussi> friday the 13th
[14:26] <jussi> (its on the 13th every year :P)
[15:00] <jcastro> I just don't get it
[15:00] <jcastro> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1721627
[15:00] <jcastro> does anyone think I'm being unreasonable here?
[15:05] <popey> well, my perspective is that "How-to" guides should not be in the forums, but nobody listens to me
[15:11] <nhandler> The forum also tends to rank very well in google search results (especially the archive), so I often find answers burried in there. Many of the answers that I find are really not appropriate for the wiki. I do agree that guides/howtos should be moved to the wiki or something similar. I also feel that anytime you are following advice on the forum or IRC or anything like that, you should always be cautious if you ...
[15:11] <nhandler> ... don't know the user giving the help
[15:12] <Pici> But similar to that, contributors to the wiki aren't vetted in advance etiher.
[15:17] <popey> doesnt matter
[15:17] <popey> wiki is editable
[15:17] <popey> so crack can be fixed
[15:17] <Pici> Right.
[15:20] <jcastro> right
[15:20] <jcastro> the wiki being broken is another problem
[15:21] <jcastro> true, it sucks and doesn't help the cause
[15:21] <jcastro> though I don't want to slight the ndiswrapper person's work, because it looks substantial
[15:21] <jcastro> even though all that does is break people's stuff
[15:22] <jcastro> and the real answer is "go spend $20 on a new dongle"
[15:22] <jcastro> but whatever, at least the person is keeping it up to date
[15:30] <jcastro> "I have changed my mind on this topic. I think that the most important thing is to grow & optimise the Ubuntu wiki."
[15:30] <jcastro> hah
[15:30] <jcastro> the second thing I want to delete. :)
[15:34] <akgraner> hehe  - I have such a love hate relationship with wiki pages
[15:37]  * JFo loves to hate them
[15:39] <duanedesign> jcastro: i tried to come to your defense in that thread on the forum
[15:40] <jcastro> I think everyone needs to collectively realize (and this is project wide) that deleting things can be just as useful as writing them
[15:41] <duanedesign> jcastro: definetly if the info is worth keeping it is worth moving to a resource that can be maintained
[15:42] <duanedesign> jcastro: not only the wiki but I have my BOUCFT projrct. It tales the best of the forums and puts it in DocBook format viewable by Yelp
[15:47] <akgraner> what is a "bamfdaemon" cause whatever it is it keeps crashing...:-/
[15:47]  * akgraner goes to look it up :-)
[15:49] <jcastro> akgraner: it's a window matcher
[15:49] <jcastro> just submit the crasher and mark it unprivate
[15:49] <jcastro> tons of fixes tomorrow folks!
[15:49] <duanedesign> akgraner: \o/
[15:49] <duanedesign> oops
[15:49] <jcastro> ever crash I had yesterday was a dupe or already fixed upstream
[15:49] <akgraner> and I learned (probably something you all already knew) that I can have Chromium open on startup with all the websites I have been manually opening everyday..like poof magic there it is :-)  I'm super happy :-)
[15:50] <duanedesign> akgraner: you are going to be making some screencasts?
[15:50] <akgraner> jcastro, awesome :-)
[15:51] <akgraner> duanedesign, I can :-)  I have a ton of them to make for the Ubuntu book...so by release I should be good or at least acceptable at making them
[15:52] <duanedesign> akgraner: i  just saw it mentioned earlier. I wnt to make an effort to increase the screecast team and the amount of screencasts being made
[15:52] <akgraner> the barnes and noble version of the book with come with an extra cd of howto's :-)
[15:52] <akgraner> s/with/will
[15:53] <duanedesign> akgraner: so if you do make some I would love to put them up on the screencast team resources like screencasts.ubuntu.com and the YouTube site
[15:53] <akgraner> duanedesign, I'll send them your way once I have the screencasts done
[15:53]  * akgraner makes a note to do that
[15:53] <duanedesign> thank you.If you have any question, or ai can help ley mw know :)
[15:55] <akgraner> duanedesign, sweet  - thanks!
[15:56] <duanedesign> akgraner: also if you have any trouble with gtkrecordmydesktop or kazam I have a sceencasting script that i use
[15:56] <duanedesign> i had issues with screen 'tearing' and audio not lining up
[15:58] <jcastro> <3 recordmydesktop
[15:58]  * popey stabs recordmydesktop
[15:58] <popey> needs fixing badly
[16:11] <akgraner> duanedesign, what does the script do?  I am so new to this..:-/
[16:16] <akgraner> oh wow - digging the new Hinder CD  - All American Nightmare...
[16:17] <akgraner> sorry jono Hinder just ousted Severed Fifth from my playlist today ;-)
[16:21] <daker> Woaa Commodore 64x with Ubuntu 10.04 LTS
[16:31] <jcastro> akgraner: ugh crap, openweek
[16:31] <akgraner> yep :-)
[16:31] <akgraner> I'm working on that after 4pm today
[16:32] <akgraner> well according to my calendar anyway
[16:32] <akgraner> :-)
[16:35] <jcastro> ok, I AM ON IT!
[17:33] <Pendulum> paultag: so the good news from last night's baseball game is that I'm not going to force you to quit school and start traveling with them as their lucky fan :P
[17:36] <dholbach> ok my friends - I call it a day
[17:36] <dholbach> see you all tomorrow - hugs
[17:53] <akgraner> Check out Project Harmony :-) http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/News/Project-Harmony-Launches-Today
[18:13]  * AlanBell wonders if the "gobby is sub-optimal/etherpad would be better" conversation is actually going to go anywhere
[18:14] <maco> AlanBell: has anyone gone over etherpad with orca yet?
[18:18] <AlanBell> yes
[18:18] <Pendulum> I think Luke commented on that thread
[18:20] <maco> i think he said a webapp will never beat a desktop app
[18:20] <Pendulum> yes
[18:20] <AlanBell> my desktop is behaving badly at the moment, but I did have orca reading etherpad reasonably well
[18:20] <maco> i somehow doubt all the ajax hints that should be in there are there in etherpad
[18:20] <Pendulum> probably not
[18:20] <Pendulum> he did try etherpad at one point
[18:20] <Pendulum> it wasn't horrible
[18:21] <Pendulum> google docs is pretty much unuseable
[18:21] <AlanBell> the point to note is that the new gobby does not work with orca anyway
[18:21] <Pendulum> right
[18:22] <maco> oh ew
[18:25] <AlanBell>  orca is behaving badly on my desktop at the moment
[18:25] <AlanBell> however I think it can read etherpad content just fine, however echo by word does not seem to work
[18:26] <AlanBell> character by character works fine if you have key echos on
[18:27] <AlanBell> there is never going to be a perfect multi-cursor editor because you can't keep a mental map of the state of the document
[18:32] <jcastro> ok so it's feature-equivalent
[18:32] <jcastro> they both suck?
[18:32] <czajkowski> jcastro: the ask Ubunut lense keeps crashing
[18:32] <jcastro> czajkowski: OHRLY
[18:32] <czajkowski> should I report the bug or is it known
[18:32] <jcastro> czajkowski: does the apport thing fire off?
[18:33] <czajkowski> yeah but I just closed it
[18:33] <jcastro> ok holla at me when it goes off again
[18:34] <AlanBell> jcastro: etherpad is OK with orca, especially for reading
[18:35] <jcastro> AlanBell: if you update the thread with your findings I'll poke again for a decision
[18:35] <czajkowski> jcastro: it's when I restart the machine
[18:36] <jcastro> czajkowski: oh
[18:36] <AlanBell> I don't think I can post to -devel
[18:36] <jcastro> is it the lens or the unity something service?
[18:36] <jcastro> AlanBell: you can it'll just be moderated
[18:36] <czajkowski> hold on and let me restart jcastro and then I'll have more info
[18:36] <jcastro> cooh
[18:37] <czajkowski> brb
[18:38] <czajkowski> hmm didnt crash this time
[18:38] <czajkowski> bugger
[18:39] <czajkowski> oh it did
[18:39] <czajkowski> there we go
[18:39] <czajkowski> the problem cannot be reported
[18:39] <czajkowski> this is not a genuine Ubuntu package
[18:40] <czajkowski> jcastro: ^^^
[18:41] <jcastro> hmm
[18:41] <jcastro> is there a way to read that
[18:41] <jcastro> one sec
[18:41] <jcastro> ok do this
[18:42] <jcastro> is there something in /var/crash
[18:42] <jcastro> like a .crash file for it?
[18:43] <czajkowski> hmm
[18:43] <czajkowski> let me go and see
[18:44] <czajkowski> jcastro: there is a _lib_unity-place-askubuntu_unity-askubuntu-daemon.1000.crash
[18:44] <jcastro> excellent
[18:44] <jcastro> file a bug on lp:askubuntu-lens and attach it please
[18:45] <jcastro> stefano is on german time so he might not get to it today
[18:45] <jcastro> czajkowski: I believe that's our first crasher!
[18:45] <czajkowski> jcastro: not sure how to attach that file though ...
[18:45] <jcastro> there is an attachment  button on the bottom of the bug form
[18:45] <jcastro> like for screenshots and stuff
[18:45] <czajkowski> so ubuntu-bug askubuntu-lens?
[18:46] <jcastro> I don't think it will let you do that
[18:46] <jcastro> since it's from like a ppa
[18:46] <jcastro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/askubuntu-lens/+filebug
[18:46] <jcastro> we go old school!
[18:46] <AlanBell> can someone else try connecting to gobby.ubuntu.com please
[18:47] <jcastro> czajkowski: lunching, be back in 20 to check up!
[18:47] <czajkowski> ok
[18:47] <AlanBell> gah, never mind, wrong version of gobby
[18:49] <czajkowski> jcastro: done
[18:52] <AlanBell> actually gobby-0.5 does work OK with orca
[18:53] <AlanBell> in Natty
[18:54] <sense> Warning: watch out with todays udev update for Natty, it has a risk of making your system unbootable.
[18:55] <czajkowski> hmm
[18:55] <czajkowski> I need to explain to loco teams I am not shipit
[18:55] <czajkowski> :/
[18:56] <czajkowski> hmm alt tab kills my sessions
[18:57] <czajkowski> bugger
[18:57] <czajkowski> this really is not my week
[18:59] <JanC> IIRC there is a bug report about "alt tab kills compiz" somewhere
[19:00] <czajkowski> aye
[19:00] <czajkowski> damn annoying bug
[19:00] <JanC> I suppose it's difficult to debug too, as it only happens sometimes
[19:02] <czajkowski> aye
[19:04] <JanC> pfff, the combined-application-launcher-and-window-switcher-and-locations-thing is clearly not designed for people who use a lot of applications...  :-/
[19:14] <AlanBell> jcastro: email held in moderation
[19:15] <jcastro> AlanBell: they stay on top of  that queue pretty well, we should be good
[19:15] <AlanBell> it includes "Does anyone know whether the "delete a page brings down the whole server" issue has actually been fixed on gobby.ubuntu.com? Heh, scrub that, just tested it! Someone might like to file an RT to get the server turned back on."
[19:16] <czajkowski> reading the -meeting now
[19:16] <AlanBell> which I think makes the point quite well :)
[19:16] <czajkowski> discssing unity being the default
[19:16] <czajkowski> interesting
[19:21] <czajkowski> I really enjoy the TB meetings
[19:21] <jcastro> it's important to note that the systray was going away in natty anyway
[19:24] <czajkowski> jcastro: if you want any more info on the askUbuntu issue let me know
[19:25] <jcastro> czajkowski: I need to wait to see what stefano says
[19:25] <jcastro> this is all greek to me
[19:25] <czajkowski> welcome to my world :)
[19:26] <JFo> discussion going on in -meeting right now about who decides if we keep unity for release and when do they make that determination.
[19:26] <czajkowski> aye
[19:26] <czajkowski> it's interesting
[19:26] <czajkowski> TB says it's the reelease team possibly
[19:26] <czajkowski> and release team seems to think it's ready
[19:26] <czajkowski> it's not flipping ready
[19:26]  * czajkowski mutters
[19:26]  * czajkowski goes and finds some chocolate 
[19:28] <jcastro> I think people are mixing up ready with what they think it's supposed to do
[19:28] <czajkowski> jcastro: true, possibly
[19:28] <czajkowski> there are some very annoying quirks though jcastro
[19:29] <jcastro> https://launchpad.net/unity/3.0/3.8.4
[19:29] <jcastro> new fixes today!
[19:29] <jcastro> czajkowski: true, but gnome 2.x had quirks too
[19:29] <czajkowski> jcastro: I could alt tab in gnome
[19:29] <czajkowski> I do that now and things crash and I've to restart ...
[19:29] <czajkowski> alt tabbing between applications is a given
[19:30] <popey> set your expectations lower
[19:30] <kim0> :)
[19:30] <popey> alt-tab has been crashy for me for a long while :)
[19:30] <czajkowski> tis the wise old popey
[19:30] <popey> oi!
[19:31] <czajkowski> ;)
[19:31] <popey> my best mate may be coming along to the beerex
[19:31] <czajkowski> it's gonna be a funn one
[19:31] <czajkowski> trying to get lanky in surrey to come along too
[19:32] <jcastro> I do agree with kees
[19:33] <jcastro> I don't know why we mess with the classic session
[19:33] <jcastro> should have left it ... classic
[19:33] <JFo> yep
[19:34] <Pendulum> I don't understand the messing with classic, either
[19:34] <Pendulum> especially as someone who *can't* use Unity
[19:34] <jcastro> I think I'll bring that up in -desktop post meeting
[19:34] <Pendulum> really what this means is that I'm not going to upgrade and possibly can't upgrade for another year
[19:35] <czajkowski> Pendulum: point that out in -meeting ?
[19:35] <Pendulum> (I can't run 3D, but I need accessibility support and I have a suspicion that 2D a11y support won't be in for Oneiric
[19:35] <Pendulum> )
[19:36] <Pendulum> czajkowski: decision has already been made that accessibility profiles will default to 'Classic'
[19:37] <jcastro> hey JFo
[19:37] <jcastro> gather your 1990's linux users
[19:37] <jcastro> I am going to ask this question on -desktop
[19:38] <JFo> ok
[19:39] <JFo> I'll see who I can find
[19:42] <Pendulum> my biggest complaint with Unity as default is idealogical, not technical. But I don't understand why Classic was messed with
[19:42] <JFo> on the plus side they are planning to do a full on review with release and desktop it looks like
[19:43] <Pendulum> yeah
[19:43] <JFo> I like that mdz isn't settling with just rick's opinion
[19:43] <JFo> I think that is the correct thing
[19:43] <Pendulum> I do too
[19:44]  * czajkowski has a lot of respect for mdz he balances things out
[19:44] <czajkowski> and goes to a lot of rounds to find out the right information before making any decsision
[19:45] <Pendulum> yes, definitely
[19:45] <popey> Pendulum: idealogically how?
[19:46] <Pendulum> I don't think that a distro that claims that one of its core values is accessibility should have a default desktop that's not accessible
[19:47] <jcastro> JFo: ok I'm going to see what rick posts.
[19:47] <jcastro> JFo: and also, we RTM in 21 days
[19:47] <JFo> ok
[19:47] <jcastro> it is a bit late
[19:47] <JFo> indeed
[19:47] <sense> Pendulum: GNOME Panel was restored to the app/places/system menus setup again today.
[19:47] <jcastro> even if DX is landing /animations/ today
[19:47] <Pendulum> yes, 'Classic' is, but if you can't use the default you're sending the message that users who need accessibility are 2nd class
[19:47] <jcastro> sense: wait what? link?
[19:47] <Pendulum> I'm scared about Oneiric when Classic goes completely away
[19:48] <Pendulum> since I haven't seen any discussion of how Unity 2D will be accessible
[19:48] <sense> jcastro: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/1:2.32.1-0ubuntu6.2
[19:49] <jcastro> sense: man. awesome.
[19:50] <sense> Today was a horrible day with regard to the updates though: branding-ubuntu came crashing down, taking aptd with it, interrupting udev's udpate process without me knowing it, which made my system unbootable until Stéphane told me to run dpkg --configure -a in chroot.
[19:50] <czajkowski> sense: you starting uni over in the UK in september ?
[19:50] <sense> czajkowski: If everything goes right, I have to be there at 30 september in the afternoon!
[19:50] <czajkowski> sense: which college?
[19:51] <sense> czajkowski: King's College. ;)
[19:51] <czajkowski> where is that ?
[19:51] <sense> czajkowski: King's Parade, Cambridge
[19:52] <czajkowski> sense: well done and best of luck with it
[19:52] <sense> thanks
[19:52] <Pendulum> sense: congrats!
[19:52] <AlanBell> awesome sense
[19:53] <jcastro> sense: are you going to get all english on us?
[19:53] <sense> jcastro: I will talk to you in the most posh posh I can come up with in a few years!
[19:53] <AlanBell> sense: /join #ubuntu-uk
[19:53] <Pendulum> sense: you know AlanBell is going to try to pull you into the UK loco, right? ;-)
[19:53] <czajkowski> it's ok I'm still keeping my Irish accent over here :)
[19:53] <sense> AlanBell: I will certainly take a look, but currently I'm too busy leading Ubuntu NL :)
[19:53] <AlanBell> resistance is futile
[19:53] <Pendulum> and, it seems he has already started while I was typing :P
[19:54] <sense> AlanBell: Lets do a William III here: personal union of LoCos!
[19:54] <Pendulum> haha
[19:54] <czajkowski> this did make my day today though  https://identi.ca/notice/70577200
[19:55] <Pendulum> czajkowski: that's because you're awesome!
[19:55] <sense> czajkowski: Reminds me of remarks from my classmates recently who said they really liked Scottish and Irish accents. Be proud of it!
[19:55] <czajkowski> Pendulum: :)
[19:55] <czajkowski> sense: :)
[19:56] <AlanBell> well King Billy did like Orange
[19:56] <maco> i just learned while at uds orlando who the heck William & Mary are
[19:56] <maco> i did not figure out WHY they have a uni inthe US though
[19:56] <sense> AlanBell: A bit too much, he used his position as stadholder not to benefit the Dutch state, but to grab the English and Scottish thrones
[19:57] <Pendulum> maco: they chartered the college
[19:57] <maco> they're that recent?
[19:57] <sense> maco: 1688
[19:57] <sense> was the invasion
[19:57] <sense> William II died in 1702
[19:57] <sense> William III
[19:58] <maco> i guess i tend to forget anything was even going on in the US pre-1700 other than umm...dying of strange new diseases the invaders had never seen
[19:58] <maco> so...you're saying there were unis founded on this continent prior to 1700?
[19:58] <Pendulum> maco: 1792 for William & Mary
[19:58] <Pendulum> err.. 1692
[19:59] <sense> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_university_in_the_United_States
[19:59] <maco> hmm...its almost like this society is old enough to have history or something
[19:59] <sense> :)
[19:59] <Pendulum> maco: Harvard was 1636
[19:59] <sense> That's almost as old as New York!
[19:59] <Pendulum> (it's oldest, W&M is 2nd)
[19:59] <maco> O_o
[19:59] <maco> but they only got here in 1620!
[20:00] <sense> New Netherlands was established in 1614.
[20:00] <sense> I believe there were already English by then.
[20:00] <AlanBell> yeah, we have proper history
[20:00] <Pendulum> maco: they needed some way to train new ministers
[20:01] <sense> That has indeed been a very important reason for establishing universities.
[20:01] <sense> The same reason we founded our first in 1595.
[20:01] <sense> Which actually isn't even long before 1636.
[20:01] <Pendulum> interestingly, it's never had an official affiliation with a specific church
[20:01] <maco> Plymouth was 1620. were there english here prior to plymouth? if not, nederlanders win
[20:02] <Pendulum> maco: Virginia Bay was 1607, I think
[20:02] <AlanBell> this is like one of those slashdot threads about who has the lowest uid
[20:02] <sense> The Pilgrim Fathers weren't the first, were they?
[20:02] <sense> They just took over everything.
[20:02] <Pendulum> sense: I think they were the first to really take hold
[20:02] <AlanBell> we were invaded by the Romans in 43 AD, beat that!
[20:02] <sense> Wikipedia: "On April 10, 1606, King James I of England issued two charters, one for each of the Virginia Companies, London and Plymouth."
[20:03] <sense> AlanBell: Indian history is history too! :)
[20:03] <maco> this just made me look up whether the reason the dutch came here was mennonite persecution, but it looks like that was 50 years later
[20:03] <Pendulum> first Dutch were traders, I think
[20:04] <Pendulum> and Pennsylvannia Dutch is German, not Dutch
[20:04] <maco> (i said "this society" not "this continent" because the Invasion of the White People marked a societal change, whereas the Brits have been the Brits for 1000 years)
[20:04] <Pici> Deutch
[20:04] <JanC> Pennsylvania Deutsch
[20:04] <sense> Pendulum: Dutch traders were everywhere.
[20:04] <maco> bah howd i forget that?
[20:04] <Pici> (eh, close)
[20:04]  * maco headdesk
[20:04] <sense> Pendulum: Dutch, Deutsch and Duits have the same origin.
[20:04] <maco> i'm pennsylvanian!
[20:05] <Pendulum> maco: you maybe didn't have the history obsession that I did as a kid? ;-)
[20:05] <JanC> and "Dietsch"  ;)
[20:05]  * Pendulum did recreation colonial and early 1800s summer camps and everything
[20:05] <sense> Pendulum: They all referred to a group of people living in the Netherlands and probably a large part of Germany. We and the Germans started to use it for all Germans, the English for Dutch.
[20:05] <maco> Pendulum: i had a field trip to meet the amish! and they splained this! and i even was thinking it a couple days ago! and i still forgotted
[20:05]  * Pici remembers learning most of this in school
[20:05] <maco> Pendulum: also, my obsession with history is several centuries earlier than yours
[20:05]  * maco is going to Pennsic this year!
[20:05] <Pici> I don't necessarily remember it, but I remember learning it ;)
[20:06] <Pendulum> maco: I live with a Medieval/Renn Studies major (and if my brother lived here, it'd be with 2)
[20:06] <maco> Pendulum: kickass!
[20:06] <maco> erm i mean
[20:06] <maco> AWESOME
[20:06] <maco> <_<
[20:06] <maco> >_>
[20:06] <Pendulum> maco: ask my mum about it this summer since I suspect we will see you again :P
[20:06] <sense> I like it how we funded the US rebels as part of our anti-British foreign policy and now we are controlled by the US. It's inverse!
[20:06] <maco> Pendulum: for a moment, i thought you meant you were going to come to pennsic too
[20:07] <sense> History is awesome.
[20:07] <maco> then i remembered
[20:07]  * maco smiles at Dr Moon
[20:07] <Pendulum> maco: nope. I don't have SCA interests and will probably not be travelling at that point anyway
[20:08] <maco> (this isnt #kubuntu-devel... can i still make gratuitous Doctor Who references and have them be recognised?)
[20:08] <Pendulum> maco: :)
[20:08] <Pici> (either I'm forgetful, or the references are too old for me)
[20:08] <maco> Pendulum: Silence in the Library / Forest of the DEad
[20:08] <Pici> Oh, oh, that guy.
[20:08] <czajkowski> :D
[20:09] <Pici> I was going to watch that episode this past weekend again, but I went with The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang instead.
[20:09] <AlanBell> http://starrgazr.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/john-cleeses-letter-to-america/
[20:09] <JanC> sense: the funny thing about New Amsterdam is also that the first "Dutch" settlement there were people from Hainaut (part of the French-speaking Wallonia in Belgium)   :P
[20:09] <Pendulum> I need to catch up. I haven't actually seen the 2nd half of the last series :-/
[20:10] <Pici> New Series starts on the 23rd.
[20:10] <maco> AlanBell: #1 also needs "leisure" and "schedule"
[20:10] <sense> JanC: Nationality wasn't very important. During the Anglo-Dutch wars many Dutch ships were manned with English, who fought for us because we paid better.
[20:11] <JanC> it was part of the Netherlands back then I think
[20:11] <JanC> but French-speaking  ;)
[20:11] <sense> AlanBell: That is an awesome letter. Though terribly politically incorrect, probably. But great. :)
[20:11] <sense> JanC: In those days Belgium was the primary battlefield of the Western world. Territory there has changed hands much since.
[20:12] <sense> "(except Kansas, which she does not fancy)" LOL
[20:12] <maco> AlanBell: "leisure" now sounds right to me your way. listened to Rat Race by the Specials a few too many times ;-)
[20:12] <JanC> sense: it's still, just nowadays it's diplomatic battles being fought  ☺
[20:12] <sense> fitting
[20:12] <sense> maco: In the US the pronounce it like leesure, right?
[20:13] <maco> sense: yes
[20:13] <JanC> with the EU, NATO, Swift, etc. all being located in/near Brussels
[20:14] <sense> I recently looked up how many 'security-related' organisations/institutions the EU has.
[20:14] <sense> There even is a European Union Military Staff! Though that only has an advisory role.
[20:20] <maco> "You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad."
[20:22] <JanC> didn't a million people tell you who killed him already?  ;)
[20:22] <Pici> Wow, Hoary was released 6 years ago tomorrow.
[20:23] <maco> AlanBell: how does the pronunciation of "revocation" differ between the US and the UK though?
[20:25] <sense> maco: Maybe it's just about the meaning.
[20:25] <maco> sense: it says pronunciation
[20:25] <sense> for aluminium
[20:26] <sense> maco: howjsay.com puts the stress on the first e
[20:27] <maco> aluminium i knew about it
[20:27] <sense> We had to learn this whole list of differences at school and make a choice to stick with.
[20:27] <maco> the one in howjsay sounds normal to me
[20:28] <AlanBell> maco: no idea, I just say "revocation"
[20:28] <AlanBell> well actually I don't very much, pretty rare word to actually use
[20:28] <sense> howjsay usually says two when the British and American pronuncation differ
[20:29] <sense> e.g. http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=either
[20:29] <sense> '12. The Former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling “gasoline”) – roughly $8/US per gallon. Get used to it.' Will you survive?
[20:32] <maco> sense: ee versus aye in "either" isnt USvUK
[20:33] <sense> maco: Oh, of course. I forgot that. I actually heard Jeremy Clarkson say eether at least once.
[20:33] <maco> (at least, in the US both are acceptable!)
[20:33] <sense> Well, the Oxford Dictionary uses -ize, the differences aren't always following country boundaries.
[20:33] <jcastro> JFo: I doomed myself yesterday
[20:34] <JFo> how so?
[20:34] <jcastro> so usually towards late beta I backup/clean/and redo
[20:34] <JFo> yeah
[20:34] <jcastro> so I did that yesterday, kickstart
[20:34] <jcastro> it takes me like an hour tops
[20:34] <jcastro> all smooth
[20:34] <jcastro> then, I spent some time making it just right
[20:35] <jcastro> today I realize I i386'ed, so I'm missing like 6+gb of ram
[20:35] <JFo> argh!
[20:35] <jcastro> "man why are my VMs so slow?!?!"
[20:35] <JFo> oh man, that sucks
[20:35] <jcastro> it got the wrong netboot img
[20:35] <JFo> I almost did that on this laptop last time
[20:35] <JFo> I was kicking off the install when I realized
[20:36] <JFo> are you fixed now or are you gonna have to redo it?
[20:36] <jcastro> this is why I want cobbler
[20:36] <jcastro> just go do that stuff
[20:36] <jcastro> and gen me a nice curses menu on pxe pls.
[20:36] <JFo> heh
[20:36] <jcastro> JFo: gonna redo it, just been waiting for all the unity releases today so I can test it all at once
[20:36] <JFo> yeah, good call
[20:37] <JFo> I'm going crazy looking at bugs
[20:37] <JFo> well, I was always crazy
[20:37] <jcastro> I know right
[20:37] <JFo> just getting worse, I fear
[20:37] <jcastro> it's nice to redo it all clean, and look back on the cycle
[20:37] <JFo> yep
[20:39] <popey> 20:32:28 < maco> sense: ee versus aye in "either" isnt USvUK
[20:39] <popey> thats not clear cut
[20:40] <jcastro> akgraner: everything's set, just need announcements
[20:45] <maco> popey: is only one accepted there while both are fine here?
[20:58]  * jcastro wishes we defaulted to 32px for the launcher
[21:16] <mhall119> if Fedora 16 is called the Beefy Miracle, the rest of the FLOSS community no longer gets to complain about Ubuntu release names
[21:16] <popey> i doubt redhat will allow that to happen
[21:16] <mhall119> jcastro: better idea would be to auto-size based on the number of launchers kept in the launcher
[21:16] <mhall119> the more you have, the smaller the icons
[21:17] <mhall119> popey: allow which, the name, or people no longer complaining about Ubuntu's names
[21:17] <popey> the name :)
[21:18] <mhall119> that'd be pretty anti-community, if someone decided to unilaterally reject a name with popular support

[21:19]  * popey whispers the worlds smallest 'meh'
[21:20]  * jcastro is glad we don't mention the names as prominently as we used to
[21:20] <jono> jcastro, so is a Unity release on it's way?
[21:20] <jcastro> jono: already in there
[21:20] <jono> jcastro, cool
[21:20] <jcastro> some parts haven't built yet
[21:20] <jcastro> but there's a new ayatana stack upload anyway
[21:21] <jcastro> give it an hour or so and you should be set, testing it now on a clean install
[21:21] <jono> jcastro, awesome
[21:21] <jono> thanks
[21:22] <jcastro> jono: and in awesome news, seb made the classic mode classic again
[21:22] <jcastro> so it's what it was before, not like the old panel with the weird menu and appmenu
[21:24] <jcastro> jono: in case you missed it the ayatana scrollbars are in too
[21:26] <popey> ubuntu.com seems sick
[21:30] <czajkowski> popey: in what way ?
[21:31] <jono> jcastro, cool
[21:31] <jono> jcastro, yeah scrollbars don't work on all apps
[21:31] <popey> czajkowski: nvm, reported to sysadmins
[21:31] <czajkowski> popey: fair enough
[21:31] <jono> jcastro, thanks for getting dbarth lined up for tomorrow
[21:32] <jcastro> jono: maybe announce it now?
[21:32] <jcastro> people always have tons of unity questions
[21:32] <jcastro> we could have a good turnout
[21:33] <jono> jcastro, will do
[21:33] <jono> just grabbing lunch and then will
[21:33] <jono> do
[21:35] <pleia2> popey: the awfulness of sounder caused me to set up mutt today because it has threading (that unity & israel thread was horrible)
[21:35] <popey> wondering whether to put it on the cc agenda
[21:36] <pleia2> yeah, I think we should
[21:36] <popey> leave -users alone, just kill sounder
[21:36] <jcastro> sounder used to be so amazing. :(
[21:36] <Technoviking> sweet naaty working on Macbook, now to get Unity running
[21:36] <pleia2> I never really bought the argument of "if we don't have sounder the ubuntu-users list will have no where to dump the offtopic people"
[21:36] <pleia2> actually, they have the rest of the internet :)
[21:37] <popey> the offtopic people can.. GTFO IMO
[21:37] <Technoviking> crap can't upgrade now, unity package are being help back
[21:37] <jcastro> Technoviking: you're in the middle of the upload
[21:37] <jcastro> Technoviking: it's ok, it's nothing but fixes, give it until the top of the hour
[21:37] <jcastro> that's when the next publisher run should go
[21:38] <pleia2> popey: "For about the eleventy-billionth time." grin
[21:38] <Technoviking> cool, will work on nvidia and getting Unity happy-ish
[21:38] <akgraner> jcastro, roger that
[21:38] <popey> :)
[21:39] <Technoviking> With Sounder, #ubuntu-offtopic, and Community Cafe forum Ubuntu slogan should be "Ubuntu, we let you bitch":)
[21:40] <pleia2> I don't know much about the forums, but the other two are mostly just toxic
[21:40] <jcastro> but it used to not be like that
[21:40] <jcastro> it was like how we are in here right now
[21:40] <jcastro> chit chat fun
[21:40] <pleia2> I was actually interested in the unity thread (they were all complaining and stuff, but it's nice to know what people are complaining about)
[21:40] <pleia2> not so much interested when they started on a giant rant about israel and palestine
[21:41] <Technoviking> pleia2: the worst part it is really a few people stirring up folks
[21:41] <pleia2> Technoviking: yeah :\
[21:41] <pleia2> and we've talked to them before
[21:41] <Technoviking> the unity rwached Godwin at epic speed
[21:42] <popey> i should have stepped in early on
[21:42] <popey> :(
[21:43] <pleia2> you've worn the flak jacket a lot on both -users and sounder
[21:44] <pleia2> no one else is willing to (I'm a bit too thin-skinned at the moment for it)
[21:44] <Technoviking> Unity-fied:) and I think all the hardware except nvidia work on my Macbook Pro OOTB
[21:46] <jcastro> i'd be more than happy to get yelled at
[21:46] <jcastro> after the forums this should be easy. :p
[21:47] <popey> hah
[21:47] <popey> feel free to join sounder and slap people about a bit
[21:47] <Technoviking> heh
[21:47] <jcastro> can't we make jono do it?
[21:48] <pleia2> more eyes on -users would be nice too (but that's calmed down a lot)
[21:48] <jcastro> he's at lunch, let's pile up on him so when he comes back he won't know any better
[21:48] <pleia2> lol
[21:48] <Technoviking> is skype in natty yet in canonical archive?
[21:48] <jcastro> I don't think it is
[21:48] <jcastro> I grabbed the new beta by hand last night
[21:49] <jcastro> I upgraded my wife to natty
[21:49] <Technoviking> bbiab, need to get son at school
[21:50] <jcastro> ok on second thought, I'm staying out of sounder
[21:50] <jcastro> reading that makes me want to quit
[21:50] <jcastro> someone should really flag all this junk for the CC though
[21:51] <popey> as far as I can tell everyone joining in is a non-contributor, in pretty much every sense
[21:53] <jcastro> to be fair, ogra has been complaining about the noise/garbage in ubuntu-user for like 4 years.
[21:53] <popey> -users is much better
[21:54] <pleia2> yeah, we actually kicked some people off -users earlier this year, it helped
[21:55] <jcastro> if the CC would just grant me some temporary powers

[21:56] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[21:56] <popey> done
[21:57] <pleia2> you forgot the part about it being a wretched hive of scum and villainy
[21:57]  * popey re-edits
[21:57] <pleia2> (jcastro started the star wars thing!)
[21:58] <jcastro> In order to ensure the safety and security of the community
[21:58] <jcastro> Ubuntu will be reorganize!
[21:58] <jcastro> into the first, galactic ..... empire!
[21:58] <czajkowski> heh
[21:58] <jcastro> for a safe! and secure ..... society!
[21:58] <pleia2> :)
 so, this is how libery dies
 with thunderous applause!
[21:59] <pleia2> noo, that was padme!
[21:59] <popey> I actually put on voices as I read those lines out
[21:59] <pleia2> haha
[21:59]  * JFo looks good in black
[21:59] <popey> losing it
[21:59] <popey> JFo: .... pudding ?
[21:59] <jcastro> pleia2: are you watching clone wars? (the cgi cartoon?)
[22:00] <JFo> dunno popey never worn pudding before :)
[22:00] <popey> ..PROCESSING..
[22:00] <pleia2> jcastro: nah, I pretty much gave up on the new stuff
[22:00] <popey> ..NEGATIVE..
[22:05] <popey> I see Charlie gives Avi an apology, yet the insult was thrown at me.
[22:05] <popey> nice, really nice
[22:06] <jcastro> ooh link
[22:06] <jcastro> pleia2: I love the new stuff
[22:06] <jcastro> I think I am the only one though
[22:07] <popey> Meh.
[22:13] <JanC> popey: sounder ?  ☺
[22:13] <popey> yes. sounder
[22:14] <JanC> some people on sounder have nothing else to do, it seems...  ;)
[22:15] <JanC> or they have a compulsion to answer to every single mail on the list
[22:33] <Technoviking> popey: good call on adding sounder to CC agenda
[22:34] <popey> ta
[22:34] <popey> Daviey: seen the reply from James?
[22:34] <popey> get packaging etherpad! :D
[22:35] <Technoviking> half the fun at UDS is bitching about Gobby, what madness is next, curing the Ubuflu:)
[22:35] <Technoviking> heh
[22:36] <Pendulum> ubuflu will never go away
[22:44] <JFo> it simply waits
[22:48] <JanC> popey: etherpad survives UDS now?
[22:49] <Pici> Its going to go away at a UDS that ends on Friday the 13th? I think not.
[22:49] <JanC> I seem to remember that during the presentation of etherpad at UDS-M the thing went into zen-meditation mode and stopped responding  ;)
[22:50] <jcastro> JanC: that's because it was running on some cheap linode
[22:50] <popey> that was because nobody warned daviey
[22:50] <popey> worst demo ever
[22:51] <popey> stuck in everyones minds
[22:51] <jcastro> or on some i386 in his living room
[22:51] <AlanBell> I wouldn't have done it if I knew there would be negative consequences of it failing
[22:52] <AlanBell> or I would have done it on a server I knew was built for the load
[22:52] <AlanBell> which we did move on to after we knocked down the first one
[22:52] <popey> sorry, didnt mean it like that
[22:53] <AlanBell> its OK, I agree with you
[22:53] <JanC> well, it was probably also because 100 people connected within seconds
[22:53] <AlanBell> yeah, all loading the UI
[22:54] <AlanBell> the actual load of running clients isn't going to be much at all
[22:54] <popey> maybe we could set one up and see how many people we can get on it
[22:54] <AlanBell> I did pre-announce that I was going to demo etherpad and that server as a lightning talk
[22:55] <JanC> I was on the server before the talk started BTW  ;)
[22:55] <AlanBell> I just didn't make it clear I was going to start the talk with "everyone pile on this URL, lets see if we can crash this thing"
[22:55] <popey> given I wont be at UDS and will be at work so behind a proxy I cant use gobby easily at all.
[22:56] <Pici> What did you expect people were going to do?
[22:56] <AlanBell> what does james want in terms of packaging?
[22:56] <akgraner> jcastro, proposed announcement in your inbox....
[22:56] <popey> AlanBell: something that runs on lucid I'd imagine
[22:56] <AlanBell> Pici: *I* expected them to all pile on, I don't know what Daviey expected!
[22:56] <popey> if a package can be made that can just be installed and up and running on a lucid VM
[22:56] <AlanBell> popey: well there is a .deb
[22:56] <popey> does it work?
[22:57] <popey> i suspect he wants someone to own it
[22:57]  * popey tickles Daviey 
[22:58] <AlanBell> I don't know if it works, but I could find out
[22:58] <AlanBell> I am not sure if that is sufficient, or if he wants it in Debian or something
[22:58] <akgraner> everytime someone mentions etherpad I have this overwhelming need to say, "I <3 etherpad!"
[22:58] <popey> http://apt.etherpad.org/
[22:58] <popey> i have it on hilight akgraner :)
[22:58] <akgraner> popey, sweet!
[23:00] <JanC> how much resources does it really need?
[23:00]  * popey says "java" at JanC 
[23:01]  * AlanBell wonders if it will install on Natty server
[23:02] <popey> http://www.threadless.com/product/2574/Spacebar/tab,girls/style,shirt
[23:02] <popey> i love that t-shirt
[23:03] <AlanBell> etherpad : Depends: sun-java6-jdk but it is not installable
[23:03] <popey> http://apt.etherpad.org/binary-i386/sun-java6-jdk_6-13-1_i386.deb
[23:03] <popey> also amd64 version available
[23:04] <popey> or not
[23:04] <popey> :S
[23:04] <JanC> it needs Sun Java?
[23:04] <Pici> Interesting
[23:04] <popey> http://apt.etherpad.org/dists/all/source/
[23:04] <popey> the source debs
[23:04] <popey> for someone who might want to change them
[23:05] <popey> http://mclear.co.uk/2010/03/10/installing-etherpad-on-debian/ is useful here
[23:06] <AlanBell> I think I will leave the packaging part of the problem to the experts
[23:07] <Technoviking> Evolution or Thunderbird in Natty?
[23:08] <popey> evolution seems okay
[23:08] <AlanBell> I am happy to spin up a VM running any version of Ubuntu with anything up to 10GB of ram if someone wants to do some load testing
[23:08] <popey> we could do that during the podcast on tuesday?
[23:09] <AlanBell> and there are some summit tweaks which could be put in place if we are going to have notes on etherpad
[23:09] <Pici> Did we ditch having an 'RC' for 'Beta 2'?
[23:10] <AlanBell> popey: I kind of know john mclear who runs primarypad
[23:11] <popey> heh
[23:11] <popey> maybe he could speak up about performance
[23:15] <IdleOne> Pici: yes
[23:16] <IdleOne> to extend the "testing period" iirc
[23:17] <JanC> more like not wanting to release a RC just before the Easter weekend, I think...  ;)
[23:30] <Technoviking> hmmm.. evolution is showing 24 hour instead of 12 hour time
[23:34] <akgraner> Pici, yep this release it will go straight from beta 2 to final
[23:35] <Pici> akgraner, IdleOne: thanks for the info
[23:35] <IdleOne> welcome
[23:38] <cjohnston> akgraner: wanna come help me paint?
[23:52] <akgraner> cjohnston, uh nope :-)
[23:55] <popey> cjohnston: I'll do it!
[23:55] <popey> You pay for the flight, I'll bring the beer!
[23:56] <popey> (it'll get me out of painting my sons bedroom this weekend!)
[23:56] <popey> oh. Hang on.
[23:56] <akgraner> dang a plane ticket might be cheaper than hiring someone  ;-)
[23:56] <popey> :D
[23:56] <akgraner> depending on how much you have to paint
[23:57] <akgraner> I am ban from painting anything at my house ever again...all because about 10 years or so ago I painted one of the bathrooms purple
[23:57] <popey> ITYM Aubergine ;)
[23:57] <akgraner> while Pete was out of town...he was less than thrilled...
[23:58] <popey> heh
[23:58] <popey> It's the artistic side in you I'm sure he loves :)
[23:58] <akgraner> sure we'll go with love...
[23:59] <Pendulum> akgraner: was it an aubergine purple?