[02:20] <chrisccoulson_> it's quiet in here tonight!
[02:20] <chrisccoulson_> where is everyone?
[02:20] <desrt> AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
[02:20] <chrisccoulson_> hi!
[02:20] <bcurtiswx> trying to sort out flights to BUD :-\
[02:20] <chrisccoulson_> i'm not the only person awake then ;)
[02:20] <desrt> flying to budapest seems to be not-cheap
[02:20] <chrisccoulson_> bcurtiswx, oh, you're coming to uDS?
[02:20] <kenvandine> hey guys
[02:21] <bcurtiswx> chrisccoulson_, yes :)
[02:21] <chrisccoulson_> bcurtiswx, have you been before?
[02:21] <chrisccoulson_> hi kenvandine!
[02:21] <bcurtiswx> chrisccoulson_, nope
[02:21] <chrisccoulson_> it looks like i woke everyone up ;)
[02:21] <chrisccoulson_> or, perhaps it was desrt "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" which woke everyone up ;)
[02:22] <TheMuso> 8Or, the Aussies are just working away industriously. :)
[02:22] <kenvandine> chrisccoulson_, it isn't late for some of us :)
[02:23] <chrisccoulson_> heh :)
[02:23] <chrisccoulson_> kenvandine, it's not late for me either ;)
[02:23] <kenvandine> for some definition of late
[02:23] <kenvandine> :)
[02:24] <TheMuso> Well it is late morning here in Australia, east coast.
[02:24] <TheMuso> :)
[02:24] <kenvandine> hehe
[02:26] <chrisccoulson_> it's early morning here in the UK ;)
[02:26] <chrisccoulson_> but i didn't finish working long enough ago to fall asleep just yet
[02:26] <chrisccoulson_> so, it's beer'o'clock now
[02:29] <bcurtiswx> chrisccoulson_, its 9:30PM here in the east coast US
[02:30] <chrisccoulson_> bcurtiswx, it's 2.30am here ;)
[02:31]  * kenvandine will be up until 2:30am tonight.. i am sure
[02:31] <chrisccoulson_> heh :)
[02:32]  * kenvandine starts hacking dee into gwibber tonight
[02:33] <chrisccoulson_> my head hurts from looking at assembler and trying to figure out how the linker works for most of the day
[02:33] <bcurtiswx> considering my finacee wakes up at 5:00AM some days... i'd hope to never be up then
[02:34] <kenvandine> bcurtiswx, my kids get me up by 6 or 6:30 am everyday!
[02:34] <kenvandine> and i never go to bed before 1am
[02:34] <kenvandine> chrisccoulson_, i really do love firefox4... i have never really liked any browser before
[02:34] <bcurtiswx> don't they go to school yet?
[02:34] <kenvandine> but i have to say, firefox is sweet now
[02:35] <kenvandine> bcurtiswx, 2 of them do
[02:35] <chrisccoulson_> nice :)
[02:35] <kenvandine> but they started spring break today
[02:35] <kenvandine> doesn't matter
[02:35] <kenvandine> they are up early...no matter what
[02:35] <bcurtiswx> oooh, fun fun, fun fun.. fri--eeee-day
[02:35] <kenvandine> :)
[02:35] <kenvandine> i wish they would sleep in... i would love to sleep until 8 :)
[02:36] <bcurtiswx> nothing a few crumbs of ambien in their midnight snack won't help ;)
[02:38] <bcurtiswx> so should I switch off of chromium?
[02:38]  * kenvandine doesn't like chromium
[02:38] <kenvandine> and ff4 is definately faster
[02:39] <chrisccoulson_> ff4 is so last week. i'm on 4.2 now!
[02:39] <chrisccoulson_> ;)
[02:39] <kenvandine> chrisccoulson_, crack head!
[02:40] <chrisccoulson_> lol
[02:41] <chrisccoulson_> kenvandine, have you tried mozilla f1 yet?
[02:41] <kenvandine> f1?
[02:41] <kenvandine> remember... i hate web browsers
[02:41] <chrisccoulson_> kenvandine, http://f1.mozillamessaging.com/
[02:43] <kenvandine> chrisccoulson_, 2 cycles ago i wrote a firefox extension for gwibber
[02:43] <kenvandine> to share a link
[02:43] <chrisccoulson_> nice!
[02:43]  * kenvandine should resurrect that
[02:43] <chrisccoulson_> yeah, that would be cool
[02:43] <kenvandine> it added a gwibber logo next to the address bar
[02:44] <kenvandine> i suppose i could add it inside the awesome bar now?
[02:45] <chrisccoulson_> yeah, that would be possible
[02:45] <kenvandine> in my infinite spare time, i'll take a look again
[02:46] <TheMuso> lol
[05:08] <RAOF> chrisccoulson_: I've recently played the “stare at instruction streams and try to work out what's happening” game.  If you'd like someone to complain at/sympathise/talk at, feel free to ping me :)
[05:31] <micahg> is there a reason mutter didn't get updated in the distro past 2.91.90?
[05:32] <micahg> ah, in universe, nm
[06:21] <jbicha> could someone look at the mail I sent to the gnome3-team mailing list and is probably stuck in the moderation queue?
[06:23] <jbicha> oh I guess I need to talk to the team administrator
[07:58] <didrocks> good morning
[08:17] <seb128> hey desktop-ers
[08:17] <Sweetshark> seb128: Morning!
[08:17] <pitti> Good morning
[08:18] <seb128> hey pitti
[08:18] <seb128> hey Sweetshark
[08:18] <pitti> kenvandine: refresh interval> I think that's below the FFE treshold
[08:18] <pitti> i. e. just do it
[08:18] <pitti> Sweetshark: moin moin!
[08:18] <seb128> nice to get a good night, I'm feeling better today ;-)
[08:19] <pitti> seb128: oh, you were sick?
[08:19] <seb128> no, I just did a 3am hacking night on tuesday and I feeled tired yesterday
[08:20] <seb128> I played with GNOME3 yesterday
[08:21] <seb128> some things there are nice, and it's nice looking out of the padding and spacing which is a bit over what it should be
[08:21] <seb128> but I really miss a launcher easily accessible, having to switch to the activity view doesn't work well for me, I also miss a background and an easy way to access my files, downloads, etc
[08:22] <pitti> seb128: sounds very similar to my experience yesterday  indeed
[08:22] <seb128> I'm not impressed by the new control center though
[08:23] <seb128> like you get on specific configuration pages from different ui parts like indicator
[08:23] <seb128> with the first button in the dialog being a "go back to other settings"
[08:23] <pitti> yes, I've seen it
[08:23] <seb128> which when you click send you on the control-center grid where you didn't come from without an obvious way to get back where you were
[08:24] <seb128> the background capplet is weird as well
[08:24] <seb128> the pictures are like 10x10 pixels images on a sidebar
[08:25] <seb128> but otherwise performances seemed fine and I like the look
[08:25] <seb128> well it's a nice start, I'm waiting for 3.2 ;-)
[08:26] <desrt> seb128: too black for my tastes :)
[08:26] <seb128> hey desrt
[08:27] <desrt> hey
[08:27] <desrt> interesting point you make about the control centre btw... i hadn't considered that
[08:27] <seb128> I think getting ride of the desktop before giving an easy access to your files is a mistake though
[08:27] <desrt> ya.....
[08:27] <desrt> gnome-tweak-tool lets you turn that back on
[08:27] <seb128> I can see lot of users getting angry over that
[08:27] <desrt> seb128: or the minimise button :)
[08:28] <seb128> I didn't miss that one ;-)
[08:28] <seb128> I also noticed that I got used to the unity launcher, I really missed not having one with shell yesterday
[08:28] <seb128> if you are in lazy mode with an hand on the mouse it's less convenient to switch between applications
[08:29] <seb128> if you use the keyboard that's less an issue though
[08:29] <desrt> i find it's even more annoying with the trackpoint... harder to slam that up into the top/left
[08:29] <desrt> but even still, not too annoying
[08:29] <seb128> oh
[08:30] <seb128> is there a way to add clock locations?
[08:30] <seb128> I didn't find how to do it
[08:30] <desrt> i think it's missing functionality
[08:30] <seb128> I like to know what time it is for my co workers when I ping them ;-)
[08:30] <seb128> ok
[08:30] <desrt> i imagine the shell team has a whole laundry list of features that didn't make it in time
[08:30] <desrt> which is pretty understandable
[08:30] <seb128> it is
[08:31] <seb128> it's a 3.0
[08:31] <seb128> 3.2 will have those I guess
[08:31] <desrt> i think we successfully dodged 'kde 4.0' :)
[08:31] <seb128> ;-)
[08:31] <desrt> but it's still very much .0 indeed
[08:32] <seb128> I find the notifications nice as well
[08:37] <ricotz> seb128, hi
[08:37] <desrt> time for bed, i think
[08:37] <desrt> nite
[08:37] <ricotz> seb128, did you tested the ppa?
[08:38] <ricotz> desrt, night
[08:40] <ricotz> the gnome-shell 3.0.0.1 deb has a weird problem with the filepermissions in /usr/share/gnome-shell which might be ppa related since it doesnt happen with a local build
[08:40] <seb128> hey ricotz, no I downloaded the gnome3.org iso
[08:40] <ricotz> more precisely in /usr/share/gnome-shell/themes
[08:41] <ricotz> ok
[08:41] <seb128> 'night desrt
[08:43] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - oh, you're a new gnome-shell convert now are you? ;)
[08:43] <seb128> lol
[08:43] <seb128> not quite ;-)
[08:44] <seb128> though I like the look it's still missing quite some things
[08:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it does look quite nice
[08:45] <seb128> oh, I also noticed that I got used to have clean dialogs, i.e without menus etc
[08:52] <chrisccoulson> nice, my laptop died when i docked it
[08:55] <Laney> do you know if gconf has a way of transitioning users from one key to another? banshee-1 → banshee in this case
[08:55] <Laney> for users who previously manually set banshee-1 as their default and will now be broken because it renamed
[09:08]  * pitti stops bombarding u-desktop@ with oneiric topics now
[09:19] <Laney> a graphical net installer would be nice
[09:22] <hyperair> net installer as in via pxebooting?
[09:26] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i responded to the firefox translations topic ;)
[09:26] <Laney> hyperair: as in a cd-sized environment which downloads the rest at install
[09:26] <Laney> like debian netinst
[09:31] <hyperair> aah i see
[09:35] <seb128> chrisccoulson, hey
[09:35] <chrisccoulson> hi seb128
[09:35] <seb128> chrisccoulson, could you send one about default email client? ;-)
[09:35] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, can do ;)
[09:35] <seb128> thanks
[09:38] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yay!
[09:39] <seb128> pitti, you stole my GNOME3 topic!
[09:39] <chrisccoulson> lol
[09:39] <chrisccoulson> and my translations topic ;)
[09:41]  * pitti hugs seb128
[09:41]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[09:41] <pitti> seb128: I just dumped everything that we should do from my POV :)
[09:44] <seb128> pitti, btw I don't think moving to an usb image would starting to not care about being rigourous, it would just give us an updated target revisited to nowadays standards
[09:44] <seb128> would "mean" starting
[09:44] <pitti> seb128: yes, I think 1 GB is a sensible upgrade
[09:44] <seb128> like we can realistically ship qt over our current stack
[09:45] <pitti> I think available bandwidth certainly grew by the factor 1.4 since 2004
[09:45] <seb128> it would also mean to get back a bit in a translated world ;-)
[09:45] <seb128> pitti, right
[09:45] <pitti> (1.4 being 1 GB / 700 MB)
[09:45] <seb128> that was my though as well
[09:45] <broder> yeah, i think 1G is a reasonable number, but i wonder if it would be better to do something like grow it by 100M every release to make sure we keep thinking long-term
[09:45] <pitti> seb128: we just couldn't ship CDs any more, just DVDs
[09:45] <pitti> broder: that seems way too fast to me, though
[09:46] <seb128> well and iso download is not really an argument
[09:46] <broder> pitti: err, sorry - not that it should grow indefinitely
[09:46] <seb128> knowing that after a few weeks you get half the iso in sru downloads anyway
[09:46] <pitti> well, I still don't download DVDs, and many other people can't either
[09:46] <broder> but rather that we shouldn't jump immediately from 700M to 1G
[09:46] <pitti> broder: ah, right
[09:46] <seb128> if we care about downloads we should get delta debs
[09:46] <broder> since i suspect that we will come up with ways to fill 1G rather quickly, and then be in the same position again
[09:47] <pitti> broder: I like that
[09:47] <broder> pitti: i'll reply on list so it's recorded
[09:47] <seb128> I would just jump but fill it with langpacks
[09:47] <seb128> then we can argue on tradding langpacks with things worth it
[09:47] <seb128> when needed
[09:47] <broder> seb128: doesn't that put us in a position of planning regressions down the road for people using those langpacks?
[09:47] <seb128> ?
[09:47] <pitti> broder: only regressions in terms of what you need to download during install
[09:48] <seb128> we always tweaked the langpacks we ship
[09:48] <seb128> like german and french are on the edge each cycle
[09:48] <broder> i suppose as an english-speaking american pig i'm never exposed to that :-P
[09:52] <pitti> seb128: we should really start having French or German as "C" strings in applications :)
[09:52] <seb128> ;-)
[09:52] <didrocks> +1
[09:53] <didrocks> (seems that I switch to ubuntu-desktop IRC channel when it's needed :p)
[09:53] <seb128> pitti, though sense (I think it was him) had a nice blog post on the topic this week saying that's it's a disadvantage for english
[09:53] <seb128> since the strings are written by hackers and don't get any review, etc as other locales
[09:53] <pitti> that's right
[09:54] <pitti> and more importantly, in a lot of cases by non-native English speaking hackers :)
[09:56] <seb128> btw do you guys have an opinion on whether "classic GNOME" should be similar to 10.10 or to what we have now
[09:57] <seb128> or said different if we should have the logo menu and appmenu or if we should go back to the 3 menus without appmenu on the default layout
[09:57] <broder> you mean panel vs. unity-2d?
[09:57] <seb128> no, gnome-panel "classic" session default layout
[09:57] <broder> oh, hmm...i haven't checked out the current classic environment in a while :)
[09:59] <seb128> we switched to use the logo menu rather than the application, places, system one and we added appmenu to be closer from unity since that was the 2d fallback session as well
[09:59] <didrocks> people on the french forum seems surprised when they go to the classic environment to not find the traditional menu
[10:00] <seb128> but since we have unity-2d for those who want a 2d session similar to unity
[10:00] <seb128> didrocks, right, I think users wait from the classic session to be ...classic ;-)
[10:00] <didrocks> agreed with that, I unerstand the 2 rationales though :-)
[10:00] <didrocks> understand*
[10:01] <broder> with unity-2d, we should never have to show a user the classic environment unless they explicitly opt into it, right?
[10:01] <seb128> if unity-2d was on the CD yes
[10:01] <seb128> but that's not the case (yet)
[10:02] <broder> i'd say that if we get unity-2d on the cd somehow, then someone who specifically asks for classic should get the old-school layout
[10:03] <seb128> but we don't for this cycle
[10:03] <broder> oh, you're talking about for 12.04? yeah, i don't know for that one
[10:11] <pitti> seb128: with GNOME 3 is there actually still a well-defined "gnome 2d" experience?
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, still gnome-panel
[10:11] <seb128> though they tweaked it a bit to be closer from the gnome-shell layout
[10:11] <pitti> seb128: my gut feeling is that gnome-2d session should continue to be what we have now, to avoid jumping back and forth and also to provide a slightly more consistent user experience
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, so with appmenu?
[10:11] <pitti> yes
[10:12] <pitti> but I have no strong opinion about it TBH
[10:12] <pitti> but for upgraders we'll reuse the existing config anyway
[10:12] <pitti> it took me a fair while to actually see the "new" layout in natty, with a new user
[10:13] <seb128> it depends of how we communicate about "classic" though
[10:13] <seb128> we don't communicate it as being a 2d session
[10:13] <seb128> we called it "classic"
[10:14] <ogra_> pitti, do i want overlay scrollbar on netbook ? (just saw your meta upload)
[10:14] <seb128> like users say that's what you should use if you like the old GNOME better than unity or g-s
[10:14] <pitti> ogra_: question for DX, but I guess so
[10:15] <pitti> seb128: ah, good point
[10:25] <Laney> so classic = gnome 2.32 (~ 10.10)?
[10:25] <rodrigo_> morning
[10:25] <kklimonda> hey rodrigo_
[10:26] <seb128> hey rodrigo_
[10:26] <rodrigo_> hi kklimonda
[10:26] <rodrigo_> hi seb128
[10:26] <seb128> Laney, yes with appmenu configured by default
[10:27] <seb128> rodrigo_, how are you?
[10:28] <rodrigo_> seb128, very tired, didn't sleep much last night, as my gf had a small accident with the bike yesterday and she had a bad night
[10:29] <seb128> rodrigo_, oh? is she ok? did she get injured?
[10:30] <rodrigo_> seb128, yes, just some bruises, nothing serious, but enough to feel some pain when sleeping
[10:30] <seb128> ok
[10:34] <Sweetshark> pitti: didrocks asked about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/720716 still being fixed. After some failed attempts (it fun to have multiple sets of .desktop files in multiple repositories, some unused) I think I have a solution. How would that be handled wrt to FF and translations?
[10:35] <didrocks> Sweetshark: chrisccoulson made it for firefox on a wiki page as translation isn't handled by launchpad
[10:35] <didrocks> hence the fact I pointed that yesterday, you should talk about it with dpm as well :)
[10:35] <chrisccoulson> yes, we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Wanted/FirefoxDesktop for firefox
[10:37] <pitti> Sweetshark: right, it's an UIF issue, and by and large missing translations; I think we should at least collect translations for the more popular languages (Spanish, Portugese, Chinese, and of course French!) before we upload this, as this doesn't have any langpack support
[10:37] <pitti> Sweetshark: please subscribe u-release and ubuntu-translators to the bug and ask for a UIF, and perhaps point to a wiki page like for firefox
[10:38] <TeTeT> hi, on Natty I've seen that Lotus Notes uses the global menu, but eclipse doesn't. Can I exclude Notes from the global menu somehow, as it doesn't work that well?
[10:44] <seb128> TeTeT, unset UBUNTU_MENUPROXY
[10:44] <seb128> TeTeT, then start it
[10:47] <ogra_> we probably should have a wrapper that does this on all wxgtk apps ;)
[10:48] <ogra_> audacity isnt usable under unity
[10:48] <ogra_> (works fine in classic)
[10:52] <jibel> ogra_, this is bug 722375
[10:53] <seb128> ogra_, that's fixed today in natty
[10:53] <TeTeT> seb128: thanks
[10:54] <ogra_> oh, awesome, so i can switch my desktop machine back to unity !
[10:54] <TeTeT> works nicely
[10:54]  * ogra_ is currently digitizing his LPs ... not having audacity is kind of blocking ;)
[10:55] <fta> didrocks, hi, just updated that bamf/chromium bug, definitely not fixed
[10:55] <didrocks> fta: which one? the webapps match?
[10:55] <fta> bug 744972
[10:56] <fta> (the one jorge pointed me to yesterday)
[10:56] <didrocks> yeah, please reopen it and take in touch with the contributor making the patch
[10:56] <seb128> rodrigo_, can you check on bug #753047
[10:57] <seb128> ?
[10:57] <seb128> ogra_, you could just have unset UBUNTU_MENUPROXY to run it under unity...
[10:59] <rodrigo_> seb128, yes
[10:59] <seb128> thanks
[11:07] <dholbach> hiya
[11:07] <dholbach> does anybody know anything about the patch in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/633125?
[11:07] <dholbach> (it's actually a patch for gnome-settings-daemon)
[11:07] <dholbach> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/68447735/use_xrecord.patch
[11:08] <rodrigo_> seb128, hmm, you merged this -> https://code.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/lucid/couchdb-glib/fix-571286/+merge/24754 but it wasn't needed anymore, just for lucid
[11:09] <seb128> rodrigo_, no, I manually set the merge request to merged on launchpad so it stops showing in the merges queue
[11:09] <rodrigo_> seb128, ah, ok
[11:09] <seb128> rodrigo_, I could have deleted it or set to anything else
[11:09] <seb128> rodrigo_, it was just to stop having it listed ;-)
[11:09] <rodrigo_> seb128, yes, no problem, didn't pull the branch before asking you
[11:10] <seb128> rodrigo_, but feel free to set the correct status
[11:10] <rodrigo_> seb128, it was abandoned, so yeah, no problem
[11:10] <seb128> dholbach, do you have any clue about dholbach's question?
[11:10] <dholbach> seb128, no
[11:10] <seb128> ups
[11:10] <dholbach> that's why I asked ;-)
[11:10] <seb128> rodrigo_, ^
[11:10] <seb128> dholbach, it was for rodrigo
[11:10] <rodrigo_> hmm
[11:10]  * dholbach hugs seb128 :)
[11:10]  * seb128 hugs dholbach
[11:10]  * dholbach hugs rodrigo_ too :)
[11:11]  * rodrigo_ hugs dholbach back :)
[11:11] <rodrigo_> dholbach, looking...
[11:12] <Sweetshark> GROUPHUG!
[11:12] <rodrigo_> dholbach, I guess it looks ok, shouldn't break anything, so do you want me to submit the package with the patch?
[11:12]  * dholbach hugs Sweetshark too :-)
[11:12] <rodrigo_> Sweetshark, :)
[11:13] <rodrigo_> Sweetshark, jealous, eh? :D
[11:13] <dholbach> rodrigo_, I personally didn't know too much about the patch - should I forward it to upstream, etc.?
[11:13] <dholbach> it's just my patch pilot day and I was trying to get another opinion on it
[11:13] <rodrigo_> dholbach, I'm upstream, so I can forward it myself
[11:13] <dholbach> :-D
[11:13] <dholbach> fast-forward!
[11:13] <dholbach> awesome
[11:14] <dholbach> I'm happy to test-build, etc, upload to Ubuntu
[11:14] <rodrigo_> although I see in the bug it needed a change in syndaemon
[11:14] <dholbach> oh?
[11:15] <fta> didrocks, the last compiz regressed for me. lots of artifacts in chromium: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fta/chromium-artifacts.ogv
[11:15] <didrocks> dbarth: ^^
[11:15] <didrocks> fta: can you open a bug about it?
[11:15] <seb128> it seems that somehow fta is a bug magnet
[11:15] <rodrigo_> dholbach, it needs to be compiled with xrecord, for -R to work, I guess?
[11:15] <seb128> or he has very weird configs ;-)
[11:15] <didrocks> seb128: yeah ;)
[11:16] <rodrigo_> dholbach, well, I'll submit a package fix for natty and file the patch to b.g.o
[11:16] <dholbach> rodrigo_, ok, let me know if there's anything else I can do
[11:16] <dholbach> and thanks for your work on this
[11:16] <rodrigo_> dholbach, not sure how syndaemon would react if it gets -R but not compiled with XRecord
[11:17] <Sweetshark> didrocks, chrisccoulson: Looking good like that? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Wanted/LibreOfficeCalc  Just asking before I create a copy for base, draw, impress, math, startcenter, writer.
[11:17] <dholbach> rodrigo_, there's also https://code.launchpad.net/~dylanmccall/ubuntu/natty/gnome-settings-daemon/fix-748805/+merge/56096
[11:18] <dholbach> but it seems to be still under discussion
[11:18] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that one needs fixing
[11:18] <chrisccoulson> the patch doesn't really make things any better, it just changes them slightly
[11:19] <rodrigo_> ok
[11:19] <chrisccoulson> Sweetshark, yeah, looks good
[11:23] <dbarth> ?
[11:23] <dbarth> ah ok
[11:23] <dbarth> damage issues again i guess
[11:24] <Sweetshark> hmmm, I get a tasty internal server error everytime I save something on the ubuntu wiki ...
[11:25] <fta> seb128, should I add a tag for the regression or something?
[11:26] <Daviey> rodrigo_, I was just prepping a merge proposal for the one dholbach raised, but if you are on the case i'll leave it.
[11:26] <Daviey> looks more complicated that patch piloting anyway :)
[11:27] <rodrigo_> Daviey, yes, almost done
[11:27]  * dholbach hugs rodrigo_ and Daviey
[11:28] <dholbach> awesome
[11:28] <fta> didrocks, dbarth: bug 753369
[11:28] <fta> no bot?
[11:28] <rodrigo_> dholbach, :)
[11:28] <didrocks> fta: I'll let dbarth deal with it, on other things right now
[11:28] <Daviey> rodrigo_, \o/
[11:30] <pitti> desrt: is it possible in gsettings to construct new subtrees dynamically? such as a tree with properties for each hotpluggable drive you have (/apps/nautilus/volume_options/MyUsbStick/ has an "automount" gboolean flag, and possibly a list of mount options) etc.
[11:30] <pitti> desrt: I don't see anything in the gsettings API to do that, it all seems to rely on a predefined schema?
[11:31] <seb128> fta, no
[11:31] <seb128> fta, there is no such tag during unstable series
[11:31] <pitti> desrt: or is the solution for that to just have a /apps/nautilus/volume_options key which is a dictionary gvariant? (mapping UUIDs/Labels to options)
[11:34] <seb128> is there any take for bug #741425
[11:34] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/policykit-1-gnome/+bug/741425
[11:34] <seb128> that's polkit aborting on "assertion failed: (info->alignment == 0 || info->alignment == 1 || info->alignment == 3 || info->alignment == 7)""
[11:35] <pitti> I really doubt that it's on login
[11:35] <pitti> seems on logout
[11:36] <pitti> I just can't reproduce it :/
[11:36] <pitti> I already tried to kill it in various ways
[11:36] <pitti> if anyone has a recipe, I'm happy to workon it
[11:37] <seb128> pitti, right
[11:37] <seb128> pitti, I'm wondering if there is a way we could detect and ignore crash on logout
[11:38] <pitti> seb128: can we ask gnome-session somehow? i. e. does it have a shutdown phase or so?
[11:38] <pitti> (not that it would be easy to get to that from a kernel context, but that's details)
[11:38] <vuntz> pitti: there's a shutdown phase, yes
[11:39] <pitti> we can probably steal the dbus address from the crashed process' environment and query the session dbus
[11:39] <vuntz> pitti: there's actually more than one phase for that. But everything after RUNNING means "we're leaving guys"
[11:40] <pitti> there's a SessionOver() signal, but that's not of much use in apport
[11:41] <pitti> is there a property we can query on org.gnome.SessionManager?
[11:41] <Sweetshark> didrocks: any opinion on this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/720716/comments/2 ? esp. on the startcenter?
[11:42] <didrocks> Sweetshark: the .desktop file looks good
[11:42] <didrocks> Sweetshark: just stick with what design asks for Natty I would say
[11:43] <didrocks> Startcenter shouldn't be in the launcher once bamf is fixed
[11:50] <rodrigo_> can someone please review/merge/upload this -> https://code.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/natty/gnome-settings-daemon/fix-633125/+merge/56726 ?
[11:50] <rodrigo_> dholbach, Daviey: ^^
[11:50] <dholbach> looking
[11:51] <dholbach> rodrigo_, so there were no additional changes required?
[11:52] <rodrigo_> dholbach, yes, the syndaemon compilation with XRecord enabled, which is already in natty, as the bug comments say
[11:52] <dholbach> ah great
[11:53] <dholbach> rodrigo_, so we'll carry it as a distro patch as it's too hard for g-s-d to find out if XRecord is enabled in syndaemon?
[11:53] <rodrigo_> dholbach, that's why I'm not pushing the fix to git.gnome yet, as I need to confirm the -R is harmless if syndaemon is not compiled with XRecord
[11:53]  * dholbach nods
[11:54] <Sweetshark> pitti: "ubuntu-translators" finds 17 pages of hits in launchpad, is there something more specific (a complete email address maybe?)
[11:55] <dholbach> Sweetshark, you mean the mailing list of the ubuntu translators?
[11:55] <Sweetshark> 11:37 < pitti> Sweetshark: please subscribe u-release and ubuntu-translators to the bug and ask for a UIF, and  perhaps point to a wiki page like for firefox
[11:56] <dholbach> ah, in that case, just subscribe the teams on the bug report (+ subscribe someone else) and put "ubuntu-translators" and "ubuntu-release" in there
[11:56] <Sweetshark> "Ubuntu Translations Coordinators" sounds good ...
[11:57] <pitti> Sweetshark: ah, it's actually a ML: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[11:57] <dholbach> dpm can probably help too
[11:57] <pitti> Sweetshark: but yes, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-translations-coordinators sounds good
[11:57] <dholbach> ah he's not around today
[11:58] <Daviey> rodrigo_, the only thing i'd say is the author doesn't have an email address... and as a personal preference you can use the short version of the lp bug url.
[11:58] <Daviey> minor really.
[11:58] <rodrigo_> Daviey, couldn't find an email address in the author's lp page
[11:58] <Daviey> rodrigo_,  snizovtsev@gmail.com
[11:58] <dholbach> pro tip: click on the gpg key link
[11:58] <rodrigo_> and yes, changing it to the short version
[11:58] <dholbach> :)
[11:58] <rodrigo_> ah
[11:59] <Daviey> (https://launchpad.net/bugs/633125)
[12:01] <rodrigo_> ok, fixed and pushed
[12:02] <dholbach> Daviey, do you want to upload it?
[12:02] <dholbach> I can do it too - as you like it
[12:03] <rodrigo_> dholbach, Daviey: if you upload it, please also merge the branch with lp:~ubuntu-desktop/gnome-settings-daemon/ubuntu
[12:03] <dholbach> yes
[12:04] <dholbach> Daviey, I'll take care of it
[12:06] <dbarth> #753369 ?
[12:06] <Daviey> dholbach, super
[12:06]  * dholbach ^5s everyone
[12:20] <Daviey> Hi, would someone from the desktop team decide if this is worth carrying?  patch on bug 501426 ..  thanks :)
[12:20] <Daviey> is ubotu dead? :(
[12:32] <davmor2> guys out of curiosity why was w3c removed from the install?  you now can't report a bug if x doesn't start.
[12:34] <tjaalton> davmor2: ubuntu-bug doesn't work?
[12:34] <tjaalton> or does it need a browser
[12:34] <davmor2> tjaalton: Ubuntu bug uses the default browser for the environment it is in to send the report
[12:34] <tjaalton> ok..
[12:35] <soren> davmor2: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2008-June/001698.html
[12:37] <davmor2> soren: ah mdz's to blame then :D thanks  I thought it was possibly just to save space on the cd
[12:37] <soren> davmor2: It probably was.
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> wow, my head feels like it's going to explode now
[13:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson, extensive debugging seance?
[13:18] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, for bug 663294
[13:18] <seb128> did you crack it?
[13:18] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - well, i think it's a linker bug, and i've got a very small test case now which demonstrates the issue
[13:19] <seb128> ok, so it's a doko issue ;-)
[13:19] <seb128> we need to get a bug bot back btw
[13:19] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i was just wondering where it had gone
[13:19] <soren> It's still in #ubuntu-ops?
[13:19] <soren> So it's alive.
[13:20] <seb128> I've asked on #ubuntu-devel
[13:20] <chrisccoulson> it's probably doing what i should be doing right now - going out to grab a burger ;)
[13:20] <seb128> lol
[13:20] <chrisccoulson> :)
[13:20] <seb128> he's having a burger for 2 days
[13:20] <rodrigo_> yeah, lunch for me also, bbl
[13:20] <seb128> that's a cow
[13:20] <chrisccoulson> lol
[13:20] <seb128> not a burger
[13:21] <seb128> chrisccoulson, rodrigo_: enjoy guys
[13:23] <chrisccoulson> welcome ubot5 \o/
[13:23] <seb128> rodrigo_, vish: could you stop Cc-ing submitters when replying on a list?
[13:23] <seb128> grrr at people who spam my inbox rather than reply to the list
[13:23] <vish> ;p
[13:24] <vish> sure :)
[13:24] <seb128> thanks
[13:24] <seb128> how come you guys don't just reply to the list?
[13:24] <vish> not sure, i think i hit reply all , instead of reply?
[13:25] <vish> i blame evolution and the desktop team that chose it ! ;p
[13:25] <chrisccoulson> heh. evolution defaults to "reply to all" when you do that
[13:25] <seb128> there is a reply to list
[13:25] <chrisccoulson> rather than "reply to list"
[13:25] <seb128> well at list it has a reply to list
[13:25] <seb128> which some mailer don't
[13:25] <chrisccoulson> i've fallen in to that trap before ;)
[13:25] <seb128> I'm used to ctrl-l to reply to list
[13:25] <vish> seb128: yea, and there is Launchpad lists which do not reply to list
[13:26] <seb128> ?
[13:26] <om26er> hi! is there anything wrong with the daily ISOs i dont see one?
[13:26] <om26er> only for powerpc
[13:26] <seb128> hey om26er
[13:26] <vish> seb128: for launchpad mailing lists where we have to make sure to use "reply all"
[13:26] <vish> otherwise it doesnt go to the list..
[13:26] <Laney> why doesn't evolution set Reply-To if that's what you want?
[13:26] <om26er> hello seb128
[13:27] <om26er> seb128, how are you today?
[13:27] <seb128> Reply-To is a list thing not a mua option
[13:28] <seb128> om26er, I'm fine thanks
[13:28] <vish> Laney: i think it might be a launchpad mailing list config issue; (where it doesnt set a reply to addy?)
[13:28] <Laney> the list can override it if it wants
[13:28] <seb128> om26er, the daily build failed probably, I'm checking that
[13:28] <seb128> right, that's another discussion
[13:28] <seb128> but doing "reply to list" should do the right thing
[13:28] <Laney> but if it doesn't then the client can set it
[13:28] <seb128> the Reply-To just determine if "reply" goes to the submitter or the list
[13:29] <seb128> "reply to list" should always work
[13:29] <Laney> it's a user thing
[13:29] <Laney> you can make 'reply' send replies where you want them to go
[13:31] <seb128> Laney, the issue is that some users decide it's fine to Cc the submitter on list replies
[13:31] <seb128> which is not
[13:31] <seb128> om26er, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu/natty/daily-live-20110407.log
[13:31] <seb128> om26er, seems a casper issue, check on #ubuntu-devel maybe, it's not really desktopish
[13:32] <vish> Laney: i think it has something to do with mailiman setting, all mailman mailing lists have the "reply-to" set to the mailing addy, so if we hit "reply" it just goes to mailing list.  but launchpad ML dont, so if we just use "reply" it wont go to list
[13:32] <seb128> om26er, oh, seems likely cjwatson already fixed it seeing today updates
[13:33] <vish> and while switching between these two mailing lists we(i?) forget :p
[13:33]  * om26er have a broken natty system and don't have any natty ISO :(
[13:33] <seb128> vish, nothing to do with launchpad and it's a frequent discussion subject
[13:33] <seb128> om26er, take yesterday's one?
[13:33] <om26er> seb128, broken too it seems
[13:33] <seb128> vish, those are ubuntu lists not launchpad ones
[13:33] <seb128> om26er, how is your system broken?
[13:33] <om26er> updated the kernel now i see busybox
[13:34] <seb128> vish, it's a policy decision, that has been argued over several times and some people are on each side, some consider reply should go the submitter and others to the list
[13:34] <seb128> om26er, can't you pick the previous one in the grub lists?
[13:35] <om26er> seb128, seems older kernel have the same problem, so should be some other thing causing
[13:35] <vish> seb128: yay! then its not my fault for being confused.. ;p someone needs to decide on a common behavior ;)
[13:35] <om26er> have happened the third time over the past month
[13:35] <seb128> vish, you just need to use reply to list on lists
[13:35] <seb128> om26er, try asking on #ubuntu-devel about your issue maybe
[13:36] <seb128> seems like a bug that should be fixed
[13:36] <vish> but but.. hitting a button is so easy :s
[13:36] <vish> ;)
[13:36]  * vish files wishlist for reply-to-list button..
[13:36] <om26er> seb128, I will, thanks :)
[13:36] <seb128> om26er, you're welcome
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> pitti, i'm going to take http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-utils/commit/?id=6f49c05ceb2a1935d07c49c2e100b5cf3cdf5f26 so we can get the default browser check working in chromium again
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> ...but....
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> that won't work on it's own, because it does a gnome-3 check based on the existance of gnome-default-application-properties
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> i'm just wondering if it's acceptable to just hard-code that on natty, or use something else (like lsb-release)
[13:42] <seb128> chrisccoulson, see bug #670128
[13:43] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, that's the bug i want to fix :)
[13:43] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I had a go to it and went lazy since the diff isn't near to apply with tweaks
[13:43] <seb128> like it patches .in which are not in our version and has conflicts
[13:43] <seb128> but you can hardcode the gnome3 case
[13:43] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'll have a look now
[13:44] <chrisccoulson> fill my head with something other than assembler!
[13:44] <chrisccoulson> :)
[13:44] <seb128> did you fix those libdbusmenu crashers btw? ;-)
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - which ones? have i still got some assigned to me?
[13:45]  * chrisccoulson goes and checks
[13:45] <seb128> the about to show ones
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> oh
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> not yet ;)
[13:45] <seb128> ;-)
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> i'll take a look at those today too
[13:45] <seb128> do you want new ones if we get somes?
[13:45] <seb128> thanks
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, new ones are fine too
[13:45] <seb128> excellent
[13:46] <seb128> but get lunch first
[13:46] <seb128> you need food to work ;-)
[13:46] <chrisccoulson> i had an interesting bug with the thunderbird menu at the weekend. someone installed an extension that caused all of the menu icons to be 510x400 images
[13:46] <chrisccoulson> and sending pixbufs of that size over dbus is pretty painful ;)
[13:47] <chrisccoulson> it sent so much data that the connection was terminated and gdbus aborted thunderbird ;)
[13:47] <chrisccoulson> some people install some crazy things
[13:47] <kklimonda> ugh, so there are limits to how much data can dbus handle! ;)
[13:48] <chrisccoulson> kklimonda, i guess so. thunderbird was aborting with "g_dbus_connection_real_closed: Remote peer vanished with error: Underlying GIOStream returned 0 bytes on an async read (g-io-error-quark, 0). Exiting."
[13:48] <chrisccoulson> so i guess that means it sent too much data ;)
[13:49] <kklimonda> grr, pulseaudio has once again decided to quit
[13:49] <kklimonda> and now it has done it under g-s so it's not a Unity issue..
[13:49] <chrisccoulson> it's trying to save resources for you ;)
[13:50] <pitti> chrisccoulson: (sorry, was at lunch); that commit looks harmless enough to me, and not too hard to port? (If not by letter, then at least in spirit)
[13:51] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: that's what I've suspected (well, that pa quits when nothing plays for a while) but it makes no sense, and TheMuso haven't seen the issue..
[13:51] <pitti> chrisccoulson: great progress on the PIE debugging!
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> pitti - heh, that one's pretty painful :)
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> i could do with some help from someone on foundations really
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> it should be easier now i have a test case
[13:53] <pitti> Linaro also has a few gcc experts
[14:01] <dholbach> pitti, what's the best place for things like this nowadays? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hal-info/+bug/745094
[14:01] <pitti> dholbach: uh, I thought this was fixed ages ago
[14:02] <pitti> dholbach: but in general, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hotkeys/Troubleshooting
[14:02] <pitti> dholbach: i. e. almost always an udev bug, but it needs some particular debugging information
[14:02] <dholbach> it has a patch attached
[14:02] <dholbach> but seems the patch is for linux(?)
[14:03] <pitti> dholbach: I can translate that into an udev rule; I'll have a look
[14:03] <dholbach> pitti, you rock!
[14:03]  * dholbach hugs pitti
[14:04] <pitti> dholbach: actually, it's really already fixed, for about three releases now
[14:05] <pitti> ah, for this model only since maverick
[14:06] <pitti> dholbach: bug updated
[14:06]  * dholbach hugs pitti
[14:06] <dholbach> thanks a lot
[14:06]  * pitti hugs back dholbach
[14:07]  * vish edits /usr/share/evolution/2.30/ui/evolution-mail-reader.ui and replaces  <toolitem action='mail-reply-all'/>  with  <toolitem action='mail-reply-list'/> … booooo! no more being able to annoy seb128  :(
[14:07] <seb128> lol
[14:07] <seb128> that will break when you want to reply to a direct email when several people are Cc-ed though
[14:08] <vish> yea, i dont do many of those, but rather that than annoy people :)
[14:08] <ogra_> just use ctrl-L ;)
[14:09] <vish> heh, I've several times done that ctrl+l in xchat and *poof*..
[14:13] <bcurtiswx> seb128, http://paste.ubuntu.com/590752/
[14:13] <seb128> bcurtiswx, ? I've nothing to do with that
[14:14] <seb128> bcurtiswx, why do you ask me?
[14:14] <seb128> brb
[14:14] <bcurtiswx> seb128, ok then. sorry :-\
[14:14] <seb128> it's being mentioned on #ubuntu-devel by jibel
[14:14] <seb128> if you want to track it
[14:15]  * bcurtiswx thinks today is a busy day for lots of people
[14:26] <mpt> cyphermox, hi, got a few minutes to talk about Network Manager 0.9?
[14:29] <rickspencer3> vuntz, rodrigo_, seb128_, pedro_ check out http://www.ubuntu.com
[14:29] <rickspencer3> wait for the 2nd banner
[14:30] <pitti> hah
[14:30] <seb128_> rickspencer3, nice!
[14:30] <chrisccoulson> nice!
[14:30] <pedro_> rickspencer3, neat! :-)
[14:33] <seb128_> mterry, translated locations for natty then? \o/
[14:33] <cyphermox> mpt, sure
[14:34] <mterry> seb128, looks like it!  :)
[14:38] <seb128> mterry, I've assigned you an indicator-application crash we got today btw
[14:38] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, time to update my machine for the first time in a week
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> i wonder if things will carry on working afterwards ;)
[14:39] <mterry> seb128, sa
[14:39] <mterry> w
[14:39] <seb128> great
[14:41] <mpt> cyphermox, just trying to get a list of what features NM has that ConnMan doesn't, and vice versa
[14:42] <vuntz> rickspencer3: sweet!
[14:43] <rickspencer3> congrats vuntz! you da' man
[14:43]  * vuntz hugs rickspencer3 
[14:43] <cyphermox> mpt, ok. can I get back to you on that? I'll need to double-check somethings and cross-check all of that against the list kvalo had made on the wiki somewhere
[14:43] <mpt> cyphermox, sure
[14:43]  * rickspencer3 hugs vuntz
[14:44] <pitti> vuntz: tried the live CD yesterday, looks really nice! congratulations!
[14:44] <vuntz> pitti: thanks!
[14:44] <seb128> vuntz, well done ;-) I tried the livecd as well
[14:45] <mpt> cyphermox, I know about WPA Enterprise, VPNs, modems, Wimax
[14:45] <mpt> and IPv6
[14:45] <cyphermox> ok
[14:45] <cyphermox> here's another one then: usb tethering :/
[14:45] <cyphermox> I was looking at the last release notice, kind of surprised it's not in connman yet TBH
[14:46] <cyphermox> some num
[14:46] <cyphermox> mpt: some number of modems are actually supported in connman via ofono, but it's not as many as many as modemmanager, afaict
[14:50] <mpt> Maybe I was imagining the IPv6 part
[14:50] <cyphermox> mpt, it probably made it in recently
[14:53] <mpt> cyphermox, there's a small list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConnMan#Status
[14:53] <mpt> from the ConnMan p.o.v.
[14:57] <cyphermox> yup
[15:21] <rodrigo_> rickspencer3, nice (re: www.ubuntu.com)
[15:22]  * Laney approves of the application in the screenshot :-)
[15:23] <seb128> mterry, can you check if you can figure anything from bug #745115 while you are doing indicator-application hacking? ;-)
[15:24] <seb128> the first frame is missing in the stacktrace but the others are there
[15:25]  * mterry doesn't NEED first frames
[15:26] <seb128> mterry, ;-)
[15:26] <seb128> kklimonda, does gnome-shell even official use or support notification area icons? like things we patch for indicator now are all using gnome-shell custom indicators in GNOME3
[15:26] <seb128> the keyboard layout, gnome-bt, ...
[15:29] <kklimonda> seb128: yes, they are displayed in the same place (at the bottom of the screen) where notifications are.
[15:30] <seb128> kklimonda, right, that's a fallback thing though, none of their official component use it?
[15:32] <kklimonda> seb128: yes, notification area is being deprecated in gnome3, but it's still being used by other projects. I'd like to make appindicators dependant on Unity/Unity 2D if possible, to make people complain about one less thing when they hear "Ubuntu". :)
[15:33] <seb128> why would indicators depend of unity?
[15:33] <seb128> they are displayed fine in KDE and GNOME with the corresponding applet
[15:34] <kklimonda> seb128: but it can't be queried at the runtime afaik
[15:34] <rodrigo_> oh, bug bot is back!
[15:34] <seb128> rodrigo_, right ;-)
[15:34] <rodrigo_> cool :)
[15:34] <kklimonda> seb128: we could make them depend on some env variable, it doesn't have to be DESKTOP_SESSION
[15:34] <seb128> kklimonda, why would they need to?
[15:34] <seb128> kklimonda, I'm not sure to understand the issue you are trying to solve
[15:36] <kklimonda> seb128: the fallback for appindicators doesn't really bring the original menu back, it just shows the same menu that indicator shows, but using GtkStatusIcon
[15:36] <seb128> right
[15:36] <seb128> but that's just the default thing
[15:36] <seb128> you can overwrite it with a custom handle if you want
[15:36] <seb128> that's an upstream decision
[15:37] <seb128> if upstream use libappindicator it's up to them to figure if they want a simple fallback or overwrite it in a custom way
[15:37] <seb128> there is nothing really unity or Ubuntu specific there
[15:37] <kklimonda> seb128: are there examples of applications that use the custom handle to reimplement the old menu?
[15:37] <seb128> not that I know about
[15:37] <seb128> we mostly spent efforts on the primary use for things we did
[15:38] <seb128> not on making fallback behave differently
[15:38] <seb128> still it doesn't tell what issue you are trying to solve as an application developper
[15:38] <seb128> you are attached to the old systray and want to keep it as a first class citizen even if modern desktop move away from it?
[15:39] <seb128> like KDE, gnome-shell or unity don't use it in their design or their components
[15:39] <kklimonda> seb128: I'm not really attached to it, but I'm attached to Ubuntu, and getting complains from users that tray behaves differently on Ubuntu made me wonder if we can fix it.
[15:39] <cyphermox> mpt, seems like there's another page that was largely kept up to date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ConnectionManagerComparison
[15:40] <mpt> cyphermox, brilliant, thanks
[15:40] <seb128> kklimonda, users don't like change, that's probably an issue which will go away as gnome-shell moved away from it for the most part as well
[15:40] <cyphermox> I'll merge my data into it later, but it's very much the same
[15:40] <kklimonda> seb128: it's more about Ubuntu as a whole, I'm just concerned about how the choices we make affect the community. Lately all I've been hearing from users is how Ubuntu changes everything, how bad it is for our uses, and how will everyone start recommending Mint.
[15:41] <rodrigo_> kklimonda, Mint?
[15:41] <seb128> kklimonda, those are small minority which tends to make noise
[15:41] <seb128> rodrigo_, it's an ubuntu derivative
[15:41] <Tommeh> Or a Debian derivative.
[15:41] <Tommeh> (They do a rolling release based on Debian)
[15:41] <rodrigo_> ah, didn't know about it
[15:41] <Tommeh> In addition to the regular Ubuntu builds. :)
[15:42] <Tommeh> I found the idea quite interesting.
[15:43] <rodrigo_> so, I see they have a xfce builkd, a kde one, etc
[15:43] <Tommeh> Indeed
[15:44] <Tommeh> Personally I thought a lot of the actual difference was in bundling 'non-free' software by default to provide the best out-of-the-box experience.
[15:44] <rodrigo_> ah, I see
[15:44] <kklimonda> seb128: they may be a minority, I don't argue with that. But they are also our most experienced users, and if we start losing them, Ubuntu as OS will suffer. I'm already seeing sings of it in our LoCo where people are just starting to copy&paste voodoo commands to each other, without understanding them.
[15:45] <mpt> kklimonda, are there any particular applications these users mention?
[15:45] <mpt> I'm reviewing indicators in general right now.
[15:45] <seb128> kklimonda, well I say that's not worth doing efforts, but those are resistant to changes but them wanting or not desktops are changing and GNOME3 will be as much change as unity is
[15:45] <rodrigo_> to be honest, if instead of so many distros, desktops, etc, etc, we all worked together, free software would have today a 90% market share :)
[15:45] <rodrigo_> but yes, "linux is about choice"
[15:45] <mpt> rodrigo_, you could say the same about proprietary software.
[15:46] <rodrigo_> mpt, yes, but those are rival companies
[15:46] <mpt> Ditto.
[15:46] <seb128> mpt, will we get an hardware indicator or something that handle keyboard layouts and gnome-bt?
[15:46] <seb128> mpt, not sure how much of the code we patch will still be there in GNOME3 for those
[15:46] <seb128> mpt, it would be better to get a system indicator that patching GNOME component for those
[15:47] <kklimonda> mpt: wrt indicators it's mostly that they don't behave the same as they do in other distributions, even when indicator applet is gone, and app falls back to GtkStatusIcon. But I've had a lengthy discussion with a friend of mine about Unity in general, and he wasn't happy with pushing it so fast to users.
[15:47] <mpt> seb128, I have a very long list of things I'd like done. That's on it. But nobody works for me. :-)
[15:47] <seb128> mpt, ;-)
[15:47] <mpt> seb128, what's the underlying code for the keyboard layouts in particular? xkb?
[15:47] <Sweetshark> whom should I subscribe bug 753627 to for advice? "Canonical User Experience and Design Team"?
[15:47] <seb128> mpt, we patch the gnome-settings-daemon notification area icon, but gnome-shell moved to have the indicator as shell code
[15:48] <mpt> Sweetshark, Paul Sladen
[15:49] <Sweetshark> mpt: thx
[15:49] <seb128> mpt, well the notification area code is probably still there for the fallback session but still it would make our job easier to move that to a real indicator than patching GNOME fallback code
[15:51] <kklimonda> mpt: I believe his choice of words was "pushing not finished software, and making users test it, is immoral" and that "FOSS should compete with closed source with stability, engaging users, and getting their trust, and not with features". So yes, he's working with FSF (or rather the Polish counterpart) but he does have a point. What if we gamble with Unity, and lose?
[15:52] <mpt> seb128, so as I understand it, there are roughly three options, (1) (easiest) port the existing application indicator to the new version of g-s-d; (2) convert the existing application indicator to a basic system indicator; (3) (nicest) implement the full-blown KeyboardSettings spec as a system indicator.
[15:52] <seb128> mpt, right
[15:52] <mpt> ok
[15:53] <seb128> mterry, bug #743564
[15:53] <seb128> mterry, please check on that one as well
[15:53] <seb128> mterry, then we are done with indicator-application cleaning ;-)
[15:53] <mterry> seb128, why do indicators crash all the time?  :)
[15:53] <pitti> chrisccoulson: just read your ffox translations proposal; that makes a lot of sense to me
[15:53] <seb128> mterry, it's all ted's fault
[15:53] <seb128> ;-)
[15:55] <pitti> chrisccoulson: (answering in detail by email now)
[15:56] <kklimonda> wow, my .xsession-errors got to 1.1G in gnome-shell..
[15:56] <seb128> mterry, but joke aside we are hitting the bottom of it I think, we don't have frequent crashers reported recently, only a few corner cases
[15:57] <mterry> seb128, yeah
[16:04] <mterry> mpt, btw, when a user clicks on the other locations in the datetime indicator, what is your desired behavior?  right now nothing happens but we used to have it switch your timezone (with an authorization prompt)
[16:05] <mpt> mterry, yes, change the time zone
[16:06] <mpt> oh, huh, I didn't mention that in the spec, derp
[16:08] <mpt> mterry, sorry about that. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeAndDate?action=diff&rev2=34&rev1=33
[16:17] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks for the comments on the e-mail, i'll take a look in a bit
[16:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson, what happened to the email client topic? ;-)
[16:17] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - oh, i'm getting round to it, i'm just trying to get a couple of other issues out of the way first :)
[16:23] <mpt> kklimonda, then we'd be in a difficult situation. But the indicators work independently from the rest of Unity (as demonstrated by 10.04 and 10.10).
[16:27] <seb128> kklimonda, we don't gamble a lot, classic GNOME is still available in the default installation and the same it was in 10.10, gnome-shell is available in a ppa with GNOME3, KDE is available... up to the user to pick
[16:28] <seb128> kklimonda, we add options and set on a default one but we don't force anyone to use those
[16:29] <mterry> tedg, you doing an indicator-datetime release today?  I have a branch I want to squeeze in if it's not too late
[16:29] <tedg> mterry, I am doing one, it's not too late.
[16:29] <tedg> For some reason I'm failing to upload to LP for dbusmenu :-(
[16:30] <mterry> tedg, the code to switch timezones when you click one in the menu disappeared from teh codebase, so I'm adding it back in
[16:31] <tedg> mterry, Uhm.  wow.  Oops.
[16:33] <mterry> tedg, it seems to be because the old code used liboops, so we were like "well, let'd drop that crap", but never added in new shiny code
[16:34] <kklimonda> seb128: right, but it is a default option, and that's what most people will see, and what they'll judge. I know that we have to get it tested as much as possible before the next LTS, but if reviews (from both users and bloggers/journalists) indicate that Unity wasn't ready then it's going to be hard to bring back them later, when it's finally ready. I guess what I'd like it is for Ubuntu to
[16:34] <kklimonda> slow down, but I know we can't, so I'd like to make LTS releases what people use, and call other releases "tech previews", but that has too many downsides, and knowing all that makes me frustrated, and I don't know what to do. ;)
[16:34] <seb128> kklimonda, well unity doesn't feel ready to you? what concerns do you have about current natty?
[16:35] <seb128> kklimonda, the plan has been from the start to ship it if ready or to ship the classic GNOME otherwise, that didn't change
[16:35] <kklimonda> seb128: the global menu is hidden by default, I have a problem managing my applications when I run more then 10 of them, and some icons are "folded".
[16:36] <seb128> well those are small issues
[16:36] <kklimonda> oh, and it crashes a lot for me, but I blame nvidia blob for this. :)
[16:36] <seb128> the first one is a discovaribility issue
[16:37] <seb128> well some people had difficulties managing applications with GNOME
[16:37] <seb128> some have with gnome-shell
[16:37] <seb128> none of those issues seem real show stopper ones
[16:37] <kklimonda> seb128: it's more than just a discoverability issue - when the menu is visible I know where to move the mouse but when it's hidden I first have to show it.
[16:38] <kklimonda> it makes it harder (or slower) for me to access menu
[16:38] <seb128> well you have to learn once where the menu is
[16:38] <seb128> then you know where to move the mouse
[16:38] <seb128> no?
[16:39] <kklimonda> seb128: but when I don't see the "File Edit Help" I don't know where to move it exactly.
[16:39] <seb128> oh, I know what you mean
[16:40] <seb128> do you use the menus that often?
[16:40] <seb128> I almost never use any menu
[16:40] <seb128> but yeah, it makes it like 1 second slower to aim maybe when you want to open a menu with the mouse
[16:40] <dobey> in the apps where i have to use the menu often, it's quite annoying. mainly the evolution composer window
[16:40] <kklimonda> seb128: I use it quite a lot in Evolution
[16:41] <seb128> so maybe we need to tweak the composer bar to have the useful icons
[16:41] <seb128> what actions do you miss there?
[16:43] <seb128> kklimonda, well those are small usability issues, it's not like GNOME2 didn't have any
[16:43] <dobey> mainly i always have to go to the menu to change the page format. it doesn't have a keybinding or icon because it's a radio selection group now, and not a toggle as it used to be
[16:43] <seb128> that doesn't mean they are not improvements in new desktops as well
[16:44] <kklimonda> seb128: I don't really use toolbar (probably should have).
[16:44] <dobey> i have lots of problems with unity that are much larger issues, but i don't really have time to go into all of them :(
[16:49] <kklimonda> rodrigo_: hmm.. any idea what may be a reason for this bug: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kklimonda/wtf.png
[16:49] <kklimonda> rodrigo_: it's gnome3 from ppa, and I'm running nouveau
[16:50] <mterry> tedg, https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/indicator-datetime/switch-tz-from-menu/+register-merge
[16:50] <mterry> whoops
[16:50] <mterry> tedg, https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/indicator-datetime/switch-tz-from-menu/+merge/56791
[16:50] <rodrigo_> kklimonda, hmm, nouveau driver problem, I guess
[16:51] <kklimonda> damn
[16:51] <kklimonda> but it worked fine... two weeks ago
[16:51] <rodrigo_> kklimonda, I've seen something similar on unity, moving to another workspace and back fixed it for me
[16:51] <rodrigo_> kklimonda, some redraw problem I guess
[16:53] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, are you working on this one -> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution-data-server/+bug/751751 ?
[16:54] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, not yet
[16:54] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, ok, I'll get it, I think I know wht the problem is
[16:54] <cyphermox> cool :)
[16:57] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, in fact, if my fix fixes the problem, that might be the cause of other google backend problems
[16:58] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, I fixed one of the google issues... but what's your fix?
[16:59] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, since we are "forcing" 2.32 to use gdata 0.7, that new API expects a GCancellable, and if NULL, it just aborts
[16:59] <rodrigo_> 0.6 accepted a NULL GCancellable, but not 0.7
[16:59] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, awesome, that's something else ;)
[16:59] <rodrigo_> but haven't really confirmed yet
[17:00] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, what's the other things you're seeing?
[17:00] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, i did the port to 0.7 and messed up in the updated_min call ;)
[17:00] <rodrigo_> ah
[17:02] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, if you want to include my fix in your testing: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mathieu-tl/evolution-data-server/lp720434
[17:05] <chrisccoulson> dang, my machine is in a right mess after upgrading
[17:05] <chrisccoulson> Cannot open pixbuf loader module file '/usr/lib/gdk-pixbuf-2.0/2.10.0/loaders.cache': No such file or directory
[17:05] <chrisccoulson> i'm guessing that's because the upgrade aborted
[17:05] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, ok
[17:06] <chrisccoulson> ah, yes. loads of stuff still unconfigured
[17:06] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson, dunno, i saw this this morning too
[17:06] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, the update aborted because of file conflicts with branding-ubuntu
[17:08] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson, ok
[17:08] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, bug  753449 is the cause of all my problems
[17:28] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, https://code.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/natty/evolution-data-server/fix-gdata-0.7-porting <- I am not sure though if it fixes it, since for me it works both with and without that
[17:28] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, so feel free to not include it in your branch
[17:29] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, what's the correct libgdata version to have >= 0.7?
[17:30] <rodrigo_> I have all these -> http://pastebin.com/xwRUY0mW
[17:37] <seb128> rodrigo_, bounced bug #752468 your way as well though it's mostly a "need details from the submitter"
[17:38] <seb128> it might be due to one of the issues you already worked on or fixed in natty
[17:39] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, you should have 11 -- 0.8.0. libgdata10 is supposed to not be used by anything anymore
[17:41] <cyphermox> rodrigo_, I'll build a local package with your changes and see how well it works for me, and try to reproduce the crash
[17:42] <cyphermox> seb128, Invalid query for Google contacts is what we were just discussing... I messed up the patch to port gdata to 0.7
[17:42] <seb128> right
[17:42] <pitti> impressive unity changelog, as always :)
[17:42] <seb128> the bug also mention ubuntuone issues
[17:42] <seb128> pitti, indeed ;-)
[17:42] <cyphermox> yes... that's definitely something else ;)
[17:49] <rodrigo_> seb128, ok
[17:49] <seb128> thanks
[17:49] <rodrigo_> cyphermox, ok
[17:54]  * didrocks waves goodnight
[18:45] <pitti> good night everyone
[19:14] <nperry> Trying the gnome 3 stack and getting  trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/mutter/Meta-3.0.typelib', which is also in package gir1.2-mutter-2.91 3.0.0-0ubuntu1~build1
[19:38] <czajkowski> nhandler: /c
[19:38] <czajkowski> bah
[19:40]  * JFo waves
[20:09] <jcastro> Laney: so I did a reinstall today and can confirm this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/gkwvn/i_found_out_how_to_make_banshee_really_fast/
[20:09] <jcastro> that the plugin is enabled by default
[20:10] <Laney> ooer
[20:10] <jcastro> I can't tell if it's any faster or not
[20:10] <jcastro> but think it might be worth investigating
[20:11] <Laney> that's two issues: speed and the open port
[20:12] <Laney> the port is daap sharing
[20:18] <Laney> jcastro: it's pretty late now, we can revisit the list of default extensions for O if you want?
[20:18] <Laney> unless having daap on by default is a massive problem
[20:18] <mdeslaur> Laney: uhm...we need to close the open port
[20:18] <mdeslaur> Laney: is the open port daap?
[20:18] <Laney> yes
[20:19] <jcastro> Laney: your decision, I was just pointing it out.
[20:20] <Laney> Can't say I've been bothered by startup time :-)
[20:20] <jcastro> Laney: I wonder if we can measure how much each plugin affects startup? Also, let's say I load it up, hit play, and all these web-enabled plugins spam my network connection, etc.
[20:20] <jcastro> but yeah, O material
[20:21] <Laney> I'd like to do that, and I think upstream would probably be interested too
[20:21] <Laney> things like internet archive can probably go to false without much pain
[20:21] <mdeslaur> Laney: so by default, everyone's music is shared on the local network?
[20:22] <jcastro> mdeslaur: other way around
[20:22] <jcastro> if someone is sharing on the network it finds that music
[20:23] <mdeslaur> jcastro: I don't seem to have an option to choose if _my_ music is being shared or not...and the open port would seem to indicate it's available to others...or am I missing something?
[20:24] <jcastro> we must be, banshee doesn't have music serving capabilities
[20:29] <bcurtiswx> mdeslaur, AFAIK banshee can share your music and get ones from others on the local loopback
[20:29] <Laney> it's some weird proxy
[20:33] <Laney> mdeslaur: apparently it's a proxy which is needed for gst (I don't really understand)
[20:33] <Amaranth> hmm, I think I should request emerald be removed from the archive
[20:33] <Laney> gabriel is fixing it to bind to localhost only
[20:33] <mdeslaur> Laney: for gst? that's odd
[20:34] <Laney> definitely
[20:34] <Amaranth> It hasn't been updated since hardy and it doesn't work with modern compiz
[20:34] <Amaranth> But now it doesn't compile either so someone finally noticed
[20:35] <mdeslaur> Laney: it there a bug open for the open port, so we can track it?
[20:35] <Laney> don't think so
[20:35] <Laney> i will grab the commit
[20:35] <tedg> mterry, Are you looking at bug 743564
[20:36] <mterry> tedg, yeah
[20:36] <mterry> tedg, not quite sure why it's happening yet
[20:37] <tedg> mterry, Okay.  Don't let me interrupt :-)
[20:41] <mdeslaur> Laney: bug 753986
[20:41] <Laney> cheers
[20:42] <Laney> can you confirm that listening to loopback is ok as a fix?
[20:43] <mdeslaur> Laney: yeah, that's ok
[20:43] <Laney> cool
[20:52] <Laney> jcastro: thanks for the tip
[20:57] <broder> what X event gets sent when the window in focus changes? is it a CirculateNotify or something else?
[20:57] <broder> (i'm trying to follow a code path in compiz)
[21:04] <jcastro> Laney: thanks for the quick response!
[21:05] <jbicha> I want to experiment with the gnome3 ppa packaging but I don't see the original source in bzr, just the debian directory
[21:17] <jbicha> ok, I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr which helps some
[22:18] <jbwiv_> guys, regarding the gnome3 ppa, after I've added it and apt-get updated, what do I install to actually get gnome3?