=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan
=== thermi is now known as Thermi
=== doko_ is now known as doko
=== Thermi is now known as thermi
=== thermi is now known as Thermi
MootBotMeeting started at 10:00. The chair is NCommander.16:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:00
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407#16:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407#16:00
* rsalveti waves16:01
NCommander[topic] Action Items from last meeting16:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Action Items from last meeting16:01
NCommander[topic] Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G16:02
* ogra_ hasnt found the time :(16:02
* NCommander didnt test16:02
ogra_well, c/o16:02
* GrueMaster was laid up.16:02
ogra_we need these tests ...16:02
NCommander[topic] GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage16:02
ogra_where ? :)16:03
janimoI have been running with 1G since then16:03
janimono issues on my panda16:03
ogra_janimo, did you build any heavy packages ?16:03
GrueMasterLink is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/Oneric16:03
ogra_seems its load related16:03
janimoand I did builds - not kernels or Qts but smaller packages in and outside of pbuilder16:03
ogra_GrueMaster, merci :)16:03
NCommander[topic] GrueMaster to document released images16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  GrueMaster to document released images16:04
janimoogra_, right maybe my builds did not push the limits of highmem then16:04
rsalvetijanimo: could be16:04
NCommanderjanimo: ogra_ the action item been carried over, lets take that offline16:04
janimoas predicted Oneiric will have its fair share of misspellings16:04
janimoOneric above16:04
rsalvetiI also didn't test, but will fire a kernel build today, since I'm done with the drm stuff16:05
GrueMasterWIP. Link is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/NattyReleaseNotes16:05
GrueMasterFinally, right window.16:05
NCommander[topic] everyone, add spec ideas to wiki16:05
MootBotNew Topic:  everyone, add spec ideas to wiki16:05
* NCommander will do so, but hasn yet16:05
* janimo has no ideas16:06
ogra_janimo, be creative :)16:06
janimowithing the constrains of the ARM image/FTBFS  work it does not seem easy16:06
janimoit is either linaro or generic ubuntu desktop material that I can think of16:07
NCommanderjanimo: well, right now, its jusy ideas so cook as many as you can and hen weĺl go through it16:07
NCommanderanyway, moving on16:07
NCommander[topic] Standing Items16:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Standing Items16:07
janimoI guess things like be fater/smaller footprint are things we can always aim for in case we don't have bluprints16:08
* ogra_ would prefer to discuss VIP bugs instead of WIs 16:08
NCommander[topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html16:08
MootBotNew Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html16:08
NCommander[topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html16:08
MootBotNew Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html16:08
ogra_given the freeze is on monday16:08
rsalvetilooking bad because of the gles spec16:08
rsalvetiyeah, saw the changes related with the compiz package16:08
rsalvetiand don't think they will accept as compiz is such a core package now16:09
rsalvetiand they want it to be very stable for the release16:09
rsalvetithe development to have gles support is not yet complete, but already have something16:09
rsalvetinux is still not started16:09
ogra_well, postpone what you have to16:10
rsalvetiyeah, and then we can start working with a ppa16:10
NCommanderanyone else or canI move on?16:10
rsalvetibut besides that things looks ok16:11
rsalvetithe edid bp is finally "done"16:11
=== robbiew1 is now known as robbiew
rsalvetiwaiting some more testing from GrueMaster so I can send the pull request to the kernel team16:11
rsalvetiand finish the bp16:11
GrueMasterI'll try to get some done today.16:11
rsalveticool, thanks16:12
GrueMasterkernel in your chinstap directory?16:12
rsalvetiwith the drm driver I'm now able to get 1400x900@60-32bpp since the first boot with my monitor16:12
rsalvetiGrueMaster: will post the link in some minutes16:12
rsalvetistill uploading16:13
ogra_heh, NCommander whats that one last item you have there16:13
rsalvetilooks a lot better than before16:13
ogra_improving internet in china ? :)16:13
rsalvetiI'm done, if you want to move16:14
ogra_yeah, move16:14
NCommander[topic] Unity 2d status16:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Unity 2d status16:14
ogra_will get the final code drop today or tomorrow16:15
ogra_nothing else to report, upstream works their asses off16:15
ogra_move unless there are questions16:15
NCommander[topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)16:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)16:16
ubottuUbuntu bug 746137 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "Page allocation failure on omap4" [High,New]16:17
ogra_thats our main focus beyond the highmem an sound issues16:17
rsalvetisame bug also affects beagle xm16:17
rsalvetibecause of the smsc driver16:17
ogra_right, any fix in sight before freeze ?16:17
rsalvetinot atm, for now just that workaround16:18
rsalvetiwill try to debug it properly16:18
ogra_tell me if i have to set sysctl from jasper ... if its not ready by monday16:18
rsalvetimaybe ppisati could also help us here16:18
rsalvetiogra_: cool16:18
ogra_NCommander, didnt you add ppisati to the topic list of people ?16:18
* ogra_ sees only cooloney and rsalveti 16:19
rsalvetiand for omap 4 there are lots of discussions about latest rebase16:19
NCommanderogra_: I don remember being asked16:19
ogra_last meeting iirc :)16:20
ogra_anyway, please add him next time so he gets pinged16:20
rsalvetiso I believe we should have a new update, with a new rebase and latest kernel stable updates soon16:20
rsalvetikernel freeze is 14th16:20
ogra_rsalveti, beta freeze is 11th16:21
ogra_will be hard to upload anything from monday on16:21
ogra_final freeze is 14th too16:21
rsalvetiwell, for kernel we don't need to have another upload now16:21
rsalvetiit's more if they will accept in the kernel tree16:21
rsalvetiafter 14th all patches should also have a sru16:22
ogra_but ince i add the sysctl setting for the workaround it will be hard to remove again16:22
ogra_so i would prefer an in-kernel fix if any possible16:22
rsalvetiyeah, me too16:22
NCommandercan Imove?16:23
rsalvetifine by me16:23
NCommander[topic]ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)16:23
MootBotNew Topic: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)16:23
NCommandermono upstream believes they have the SMP bug properly fixed, as soon as I get my panda up, Iĺl ben validating there work16:24
NCommanderotherwise nothing to report16:24
NCommanderjanimo: anything to report?16:25
janimonope, going trhrough ftbfs slowly16:25
NCommander[topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)16:25
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)16:25
ogra_how does main look like atm ?16:25
janimoNCommander, planning to add proper mono fix if it works instead of disabling SMP workaround?16:26
NCommanderjanimo: will discuss with the SRU team on the subject16:26
ogra_is anyone looking at the kde issues ?16:26
ogra_seems there is still a lot16:27
ogra_hmm, and gnome-games and tomboy16:27
GrueMasterCommunity has been on top of it recently.16:27
GrueMasterkdethat is.16:28
ogra_yes, got that16:28
NCommander[topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)16:28
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)16:28
ogra_so image status ...16:28
ogra_NCommander, !16:28
janimotomboy only ftbfs in pbuilder , builds otherwise16:28
GrueMasterNot much to report here.16:28
janimoI investigat16:28
ogra_NCommander, stop moving without asking please16:28
janimognome-games is some egl-clutter issue16:28
janimodid not look into yet16:29
NCommander[topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)16:29
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)16:29
ogra_well, we should be down to 1 package in main by release16:29
ogra_thats fails on purpose atm16:29
NCommanderogra_: it should be marked Not-for-us16:29
ogra_NCommander, you mean PAS16:29
janimoI hope kde devs will not upload new packages 1 day before release16:29
janimosame for gnome for that matter16:30
ogra_that was discussed and denied afaik16:30
ogra_NCommander, i dont remember why though, ask doko16:30
GrueMasterjanimo: no such luck.16:30
janimoPAS ?16:30
ogra_images ... omap4 builds fine, omap3 ... acorn had issues16:30
ogra_janimo, pacjkages arch specific16:30
ogra_the arch override list16:30
ogra_NCommander, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-linaro-mx51/+bug/742430 do you feel like implementing a new subarch ?16:31
ubottuUbuntu bug 742430 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "FFe to start making mx51 images" [Wishlist,Triaged]16:31
ogra_i'm not sure i'll find the time and you are the only other cdimage member that might be able to do it16:31
NCommanderIḿ not going to spin a new image at this point16:32
ogra_k, then i'll try to do a nightshift on the weekend or so16:32
NCommanderand will actively attempt to block unless Iḿ overruled by the release team16:32
GrueMaster3 weeks before final release we start a new image?16:32
NCommanderIf images for mx51 were to be built, they should have started to have been spun ages ago16:33
ogra_well, seems it was promised to ScottK by someone that we'd do it16:33
ogra_and its an unsupported community image16:33
NCommanderogra_: who promised it? Who oversaw it? Who is the image supervisor?16:33
NCommanderogra_: we have a POLICY in place about spinning images now per last UDS16:33
ogra_scott is the supervisor and wasnt aware what it takes16:33
GrueMastergive him rootstock.16:33
ogra_so he didnt know whom to ping about what16:33
NCommanderogra_: and it only comes up now?!16:34
ogra_it came up two weeks ago16:34
NCommanderogra_: this should have come up before feature freeze16:34
ogra_i agree16:34
NCommanderUnless the release team signs off on it, Iḿ against any attempts to spin mx51 images16:35
ogra_release team signs off on it for sure if someone implements the build scripts16:35
Riddellogra_: kde packages are compiling now, we haven't had any failures so far, just ones waiting on other packages16:35
GrueMasterI have to agree here.16:35
ogra_its an unsupported headless image16:35
Riddelljanimo: no big uploads planned now that 4.6.2 is in16:35
ogra_it has been discussed in #ubuntu-release for a while16:35
ogra_Riddell, awesome !16:36
* NCommander wonders why we even bother to have freezes anymore16:36
ogra_NCommander, who cares about freezes for an unsupported image we are not responsible for16:36
GrueMastermy problem is that whenever a new imagew is made, I inveritbly end up gaving to test itand any updates.16:37
ogra_its not that we take any responsibility, but we are the only ones being able to add the needed scripts16:37
ogra_GrueMaster, do you have any efika hardware at all ?16:37
NCommanderogra_: I rather have no image, then a rushed and poorly tested one that ius labeled únsupported´´16:37
GrueMasterI have babbage3.16:37
ogra_GrueMaster, not efika :)16:37
ogra_wouldnt boot16:37
ogra_so no risk for you16:38
GrueMasterI have already been asked about it.16:38
NCommanderogra_: not to menthon that given the kernel incompatibility with babage, this should be a separate subarch and not imx5116:38
ogra_NCommander, it would be labelled that even if it happened before FF16:38
GrueMasterCan't they use a linaro image?16:38
ogra_the mx51 kernel in the archive runs on both16:38
NCommanderogra_: what it was named is a moot point. The fact that we are three weeks to release, and this is the first Iǘe heard about it16:39
ogra_(we dont have imx51 at all anymore)16:39
NCommanderIt also sets a very bad precident16:39
ogra_NCommander, well, its not mandatory that we write the scripts, its just a nice gestzure towards the community if we do16:40
GrueMasterLinaro has headless images.  Point to them.16:40
ogra_we will have to do it for O then16:40
NCommanderogra_: fine, lets do it for o-cycle. I object to having poorly tested things let out the door, even on the label of unsupported16:40
ogra_GrueMaster, community actually wants a kde image16:40
NCommanderogra_: we have KDE images16:40
ogra_headless was a fallback because i denied the changes16:40
ogra_NCommander, that run on the efikasb or efikamx ?16:41
NCommanderogra_: you are obviously missing the point, and I see no futher progress is to be made here16:41
NCommanderlets take this offline16:41
ogra_NCommander, anyway, if you dont want to do it, i'll see if i can manage, if not we have to do it in O16:41
NCommander[topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)16:41
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)16:41
* ogra_ wasnt done with images yet16:42
GrueMasterNot much to report, as I am personally in recovery mode.16:42
ogra_there were some changes to jasper i'd like verified by a third party (works here) ...16:43
GrueMasteris itin today's image?16:43
ogra_the sysctl chnages for SD cards were moved to a different file, i would appreciate if someone testing the images could check it lands in /etc/sysctl.d properly16:44
ogra_GrueMaster, should be16:44
GrueMasterthen I'll test it later today.16:44
ogra_and the TI icon should be on the desktop ... if not, please shout at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/ti-omap4-software-channel/+bug/74724716:44
ubottuUbuntu bug 747247 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu Natty) "No TI icon in favorites on omap4 netbook images" [High,In progress]16:44
ogra_if its clearly there i can file a removal bug for the package16:45
ogra_(doesnt need to work, i can fix that later still, but needs to show up)16:45
* ogra_ is done 16:45
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
ogra_NCommander, move16:45
NCommander[topic] AOB16:46
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB16:46
ogra_i have two bugs we should look at ...16:46
ubottuUbuntu bug 744862 in libdebian-installer (Ubuntu Natty) "/proc/cpuinfo strings for OMAP4 devices changed with 2.6.38 kernels" [Medium,New]16:46
ogra_libdebian-installer needs a fix, i'm not sure i'll get to it ...16:46
ogra_mainly cosmetic, but it fixes archdetect (not sure if we use it anywhere atm)16:47
ogra_and the sound bug will need testing once we get the patches in16:47
rsalvetiyeah, lots of testing16:47
rsalvetiquite lots of changes16:47
GrueMasterWe also need UCM config for beaglexm16:47
ogra_that will be very very short termed, so please everyone do a stresstest once you see an alsa-libs upload16:47
ogra_GrueMaster, feel free to create one, i dont think TI will provide one16:48
GrueMasterCurrently Beagle alsa works, but you need to muck with alsaixer.16:48
rsalvetiyeah, xm should be on our hands16:48
ogra_and i wouldnt know who else uses UCM on beagle yet16:48
GrueMasterI'll try, but I am limited in mobility atm.16:48
ogra_so you cant get one anywhere16:48
ogra_https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-lib/+bug/746023 has a config for omap416:49
ubottuUbuntu bug 746023 in alsa-lib (Ubuntu) "No sound on omap4" [Medium,New]16:49
ogra_you might be able to derive something from it16:49
ogra_thats all i had ...16:49
GrueMasteranyone else?16:50
NCommanderI'm closing the meeting in 316:51
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:52.16:52
=== Guest86158 is now known as MichealH
keesKeybuk: just us so far. mdz, pitti, and cjwatson are all unable to attend. haven't seen sabdfl yet.19:00
keesKeybuk: er, no, wait, I only see email from pitt and cjwatson. mdz, are you here?19:01
mdzkees, we had a discussion on #ubuntu-devel earlier where it sounded like nobody could make it :-/19:02
keesmdz: well, if you and sabdfl aren't here, then we don't have quorum.19:02
Keybukkees: clearly my prediction of a rebel 11am Pacific Time meeting with 2 people was accurate :p19:03
mdz<pitti> mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda seems to be rather empty right now, do we have something urgent to discuss?19:03
mdz mdz: currently asking myself whether I can weasel out of this today, and go to a friend's bday party19:03
mdz<cjwatson> oh argh, I forgot about that - I can't make today's meeting, sorry19:03
mdz<mdz> pitti, I may have to miss it too...19:03
mdzI'm waiting to find out if a phone call is off or on19:03
keesthere's 1 item on the agenda that I see. I haven't checked the bug list yet, but the mailing list is clear19:04
keesmdz: so, I assume we're going to cancel this week then?19:08
mdzkees, I'm available unless I get an email saying my call is on :-)19:09
mdzI can't chair19:09
mdzlooks like I can participate though19:09
keesdmandell's topic likely can't wait another 2 weeks given Natty's release schedule. :P19:10
mdzis there an email on it? i haven't seen it19:10
keesI'll chair19:10
MootBotMeeting started at 13:10. The chair is kees.19:10
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:10
kees[topic] action review19:10
MootBotNew Topic:  action review19:10
keeslooks like everything got done from last time (cjwatson sent email about the moderation team)19:11
mdzsorry about flaking as chair19:11
kees[topic] Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell)19:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell)19:11
keesdmandell: hi! what did you want to cover on this? sounds like this is a reaction to Unity.19:11
dmandellkees: Sure.  I've had some time to use Unity and just don't think it's a suitable default desktop environment for Ubuntu.19:12
dmandellThere are some frustrating bugs and inconsistencies with the left-side dockbar.19:13
dmandellAnd some pretty important (to me at least) things have been stripped out of the desktop environment.19:13
dmandellThe system tray appears to have disappeared for instance... there's no easy way through the menuing system to find settings, stuff like that.19:13
keesI've seen a very long list of bugs on unity myself. mdz, what's the justification for switching to unity by default? it hasn't really seemed "ready" to me (and to others).19:13
Keybukme neither19:14
KeybukI'm actually planning to recommend to friends and family that they don't upgrade to natty; based on my experience with Unity in its current state19:14
Keybukthough "Classic Gnome Desktop" at this point is also a difficult point, since GNOME changed its shell in its current release too19:14
Keybukand I'm not convinced that's any better either19:15
mdzkees, the justification is varied, but basically amounts to: it's the future, and we should get going19:15
keesKeybuk: right, gnome 3 doesn't look much better, but the gnome 2 stuff seems better off. menu-bar and session saving needs restoration there, though.19:15
mdzthe plan was to use it as default, and evaluate late in the cycle if it was possible to stabilize it in time19:16
mdzsuch that we could fall back if it wasn't ready, in classic time-box fashion19:16
keesmdz: at the cost of users and bad media attention? that doesn't seem right. unity is certainly "the future", but it doesn't seem stable enough for "default" use to me.19:16
dmandellmdz: I can understand the desire to want to make big changes, but there's just so much wrong with the way it works now.19:16
Keybukmdz: that was my understanding, I don't believe that the release team have performed their "evaluation" at this point?19:16
mdzdmandell, I think everyone is aware that it's not releasable in its current state19:16
dmandellWhy not make Classic Gnome the default environment and let those who want to use the "next big thing" switch to Unity?19:17
mdzbut there's a lot of work underway to fix the remaining issues19:17
keesit seems like we're at the critical moment then, since we're 2 weeks from final images.19:17
mdzKeybuk, I understood it to be scheduled for "beta"19:17
mdzwhich is not so specific now that we have two19:17
mdzI'm asking rickspencer3 in another window for clarification19:17
mdzah, but he's at lunch19:17
mdzpitti would surely know the status as well, but he couldn't be here today19:18
Keybukto me, just at gut level, this is a -release decision19:18
keesthe recency of serious behavioral bugs in unity does not fill me with confidence that current fixes will encompass "the remaining issues".19:18
Keybukuntil such time as -release make a decision that the developers disagree with, and then refer it to TB19:18
mdzwe may need to take this offline unless we have good desktop team representation here19:18
mdzKeybuk, I agree in principle19:19
Keybukwhile I do feel strongly about this, I do feel we have a release team for a reason and shouldn't reempt them on things we have delegated to them19:19
mdzthough I fully expect it to be a controversial decision and get punted up to the TB19:19
Keybukespecially when they have a pending decision to make19:19
keeswell, perhaps then the question is "who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame"19:19
keesour next meeting isn't until the 21st which seems Too Late to me. we'd need an out-of-band discussion on the mailing list.19:20
mdzkees, the latter question is one I really should have a better answer for, but I just got back from holidays+travel and I'm a bit out of the loop this week19:20
mdzwe could convene a special meeting if needed19:20
* kees nods19:20
mdzdmandell, is this answering your question?19:21
dmandellmdz: I guess it depends on when/where the special meeting is and whether or not I'll be able to be involved.19:21
keesdmandell: it sounds like a lot of bug fixes are currently going in, and that the ubuntu release team may reevaluate this at the next beta release (apr 14th). if things are still not okay my your estimation, and the release team hasn't decided to pull unity, then it might be time to raise this again to the tech board via the mailing list.19:22
mdzoh hi rickspencer319:22
dmandellkees: Alright then.19:22
mdzrickspencer3, I was hoping you could update us on the status of evaluating Unity as default19:22
mdzAIUI there was a plan to evaluate at "beta" (i.e. nowish)19:22
keesheya rickspencer3, thanks for joining us19:22
rickspencer3hi kees19:22
rickspencer3did I miss the discussion?19:23
mdzrickspencer3, I've pasted you a URL to a pastebin with the meeting backlog19:23
keesrickspencer3: a bit yes. :)19:23
keesah, mdz beat me to it.19:23
mdzthere wasn't too much discussion because the TB members who are present don't have answers :-)19:23
keessome of the unanswered questions I posed are:19:24
kees"who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame"19:24
mdz(pitti, cjwatson and sabdfl couldn't make it today)19:24
rickspencer3these are toughies19:25
mdzI guess rickspencer3 is reading the backlog :-)19:25
rickspencer3and also thinking19:25
rickspencer3these aren't easy questions19:25
mdzrickspencer3, I know we planned to do an evaluation around this point in the cycle. did it happen already? what was the result?19:25
rickspencer3so, I've been tracking progress closely, and in my determination it is ready19:25
mdzcan the facts be made available to the release team and/or TB for consideration?19:25
rickspencer3so, I've been representing my viewpoint on the readiness on my blog:19:26
MootBotLINK received:  http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/unity-almost-there.html19:26
keesrickspencer3: is there some place that documents maybe a subset of dmandell's noted missing features and behaviors? if people still see unity as a regression, that doesn't seem like the best way to go for natty.19:26
rickspencer3in my estimation, Unity will be ready, and we should go for it19:26
rickspencer3well, there is never a perfect overlap between two products, each will have features the other lacks19:27
davmor2rickspencer3: thanks for the spider web by the way :)19:27
rickspencer3davmor2 ;)19:27
rickspencer3so, I feel that we are shipping a really solid experience in that you can choose "classic" in login19:28
keesso what's the hierarchy for the decision making? desktop < release < techboard ?19:28
rickspencer3but net/net I think users will be best served wtih Unity19:28
rickspencer3kees, are you asking me?19:28
rickspencer3I think this is always an ambiguous area19:28
mdzkees, that sounds about right19:28
dmandellrickspencer3: Some of the programs I use today are seriously impacted without being able to place their icons in the system tray.19:28
keesrickspencer3: asking you, yeah. mdz wasn't fully sure.19:29
dmandellrickspencer3: that seems like a regression.19:29
rickspencer3dmandell, well, there is a workaround for that19:29
rickspencer3but, those apps will stop working in mainline GNOME as well19:29
keesrickspencer3: I'm also concerned (based on other people's reports as well as my own observations) that Classic is affected by unity too (top-menu panel, lack of session saving, indicators, etc) Classic isn't really classic.19:30
jcastro(it should be noted that the systray has been on the chopping block for a year, and would have likely been removed anyway unity or not)19:30
keesrickspencer3: not in our gnome 2 mainline. they'll break for sure in gnome 3.19:30
rickspencer3kees, except for the top-menu panel, all that stuff has been in Ubuntu for several releases19:31
keesbut that's not really the question. unity (and gnome 3) are clearly the future. it seems the question is about using it by default in natty.19:31
james_wsession saving going was independent of unity wasn't it?19:31
keesrickspencer3: ah, so classic ubuntu desktop, not classic gnome desktop. fair enough.19:31
rickspencer3kees, right, I think Unity is so much better then the classic experience, it should be the default19:31
keesjames_w: not sure; I haven't used it. I just heard about it as a regression from maverick.19:31
chrisccoulsonjames_w, yes. that feature has been way too unreliable for ages19:32
keesrickspencer3: okay, cool.19:32
rickspencer3kees, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just saying what I think19:32
rickspencer3since I think that's what I was asked19:32
rickspencer3so, my "decision" is that we should default to Unity19:32
keesrickspencer3: sure, and that matters. I'm just trying to sort out what the chain of decision-making is to make sure dmandell goes to the right place.19:33
rickspencer3however, it's not clear to me that this my "Decision" to make, certainly not unilateraly19:33
rickspencer3in that case, I would suggest that we take it as a given that we will default to Unity, and he should escelate to here19:33
rickspencer3kees, did that answer your question from my POV?19:34
mdzI think that in the spirit of the do-ocracy, the folks doing the work (in this case Canonical) get first crack at decisions like these19:34
keesrickspencer3: yeah, totally.19:34
mdzbut when questions are raised, the conflict should be resolved through the community government19:34
keesrickspencer3: I think I'm trying to figure out how community member should engage us when they disagree with something like this.19:35
rickspencer3kees, well, I think raising it here is good19:35
mdzkees, I think what dmandell has done is entirely appropriate19:35
rickspencer3I also think that the desktop list is a good place to discuss as well19:35
mdzif there hasn't already been a public debate about this, that would be surprising to say the least19:36
mdzwe had a lot of discussion early in the cycle of course, but if there's a reckoning to be done, that should be fully transparent as well19:36
keesdmandell: if over the next week you aren't satisfied with the progress made on Unity, would you be able to raise your objections again, but to the desktop list (and/or tech-board list)?19:37
mdzkees, I don't think we should make this dmandell's responsibility to track and raise again19:37
Keybukkees: I would say release list not desktop19:37
dmandellkees:  Sure, next week is the beta2 release, right?19:37
Keybukbecause the desktop team have made their decision at this point, and now would be the appropriate time to discuss with them19:37
Keybuk"in a week" would be release team to me19:37
mdzif the desktop team has made a decision, and there's no URL where I can read about it, then that needs to be unwound as job #119:38
Keybukmdz: perhaps we should organise a town hall meeting the week after beta2 in concert with the desktop and release teams?19:38
keesKeybuk: fair point. mdz: right also.  but who should drive that then?19:38
dmandellI know this is rather late in the game, but I was taken aback by how buggy the interface was ostensibly 3 weeks before release.19:38
Keybukfor people to voice their concerns, and for all decision makers to be present19:38
keesdmandell: yeah, next thu is the beta 2 scheduled release19:38
mdzKeybuk, I think the sooner the better, when we actually have a chance of influencing the outcome19:38
rickspencer3I think I should send an email to desktop list19:38
Keybukmdz: I would agree - but also people should at least be talking about the proposed final version (which I assume will be in beta2 and isn't in now?)19:39
rickspencer3stating that I have decided that we should default to unity19:39
mdzif there are serious bugs remaining which haven't gotten attention, then we should give the Unity team every opportunity to address them, and that means giving them time19:39
Keybukif the current HEAD is proposed final, then anytime ;)19:39
mdzKeybuk, I for one would appreciate hearing from the Unity team which issues they are tracking and which are expected to be fixed for release19:39
ScottKWasn't Unity by default sabdfl'ed in at the start of UDS?19:39
mdzeven though that work won't be in HEAD yet19:39
ScottK(in which case the lack of public discussion on a decision would hardly be suprising)19:40
rickspencer3ScottK, yes, that was the stated intention19:40
mdzScottK, yes, but with the understanding that we would run with it during the cycle, and evaluate (as we do with everything else) whether it was ready in time19:40
mdzit's not a fait accompli19:40
Keybuk               ^19:40
Keybuk               d'19:41
mdzthe question of whether the code is ready to release isn't a planning decision, it's a fact-based judgement19:41
keesokay, so then, should this public evaluation happen now or after beta2?19:41
mdzI suggest ASAP19:41
mdzit doesn't have to be all at once19:41
mdzmaybe a preliminary airing of the issues and the plan for resolution19:41
mdzand then we can decide whether there's a need for more than that19:41
rickspencer3mdz, from my point of view, the remaining issues are compiz crashers19:42
rickspencer3but those are getting picked off quickly19:42
mdzrickspencer3, thanks, but I'd like to get a more comprehensive view than that19:42
keesrickspencer3: will you start the thread on the -desktop list then? I'm trying to find some 'actions' out of this topic. :)19:42
mdze.g.: here is the list of the most serious bugs and their anticipated final status in 11.0419:43
mdzthen people can look at that list and comment19:43
mdze.g. if a particular issue is missing but considered serious19:43
rickspencer3mdz, kees, ok, I can do this this afternoon19:43
rickspencer3I'll do it on the desktop list19:43
mdzor, they can look at it and say "if those things are resolved, I agree it will be ready for release"19:43
rickspencer3it will take me some time to compose19:43
rickspencer3sound okay?19:44
mdzwe can help people (including the TB) get an informed opinion19:44
kees[action] rickspencer3 will bring up the state of unity on the -desktop list for public review and discussion19:44
MootBotACTION received:  rickspencer3 will bring up the state of unity on the -desktop list for public review and discussion19:44
mdzrickspencer3, sounds great19:44
mdzdmandell, that work for you?19:44
rickspencer3thanks to dmandell for triggering this discussion, btw19:44
dmandellmdz: yup.19:44
dmandellrickspencer: no problem.  I'm glad I can be involved.19:44
keescool, thanks rickspencer3, dmandell :)19:45
kees[topic] the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)19:45
MootBotNew Topic:  the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)19:45
keesdoes the Zeitgeist email need a response from us?19:46
keesI assume not, or that it will go to the mailing list. moving on...19:48
kees[topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)19:48
MootBotNew Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)19:48
keesnothing new in the list, but there are still 3 bugs listed19:48
kees273921 seems solved?19:49
keesoh, no, there is no redirect.19:50
keesthat's in IS's court.19:50
kees(did I netsplit?)19:50
mdzI think it's obsolete and can be closed19:50
kees273921? okay19:50
mdzthere are only four bugs remaining open19:51
MootBotLINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=15182019:51
MootBotLINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=30883219:51
ubottuDebian bug 151820 in dhcp3-client "dhcp3-client: Does not send hostname to server by default" [Wishlist,Open]19:51
ubottuDebian bug 308832 in dhcp3-server "dhcp3-server: Please do not run the server as root" [Wishlist,Open]19:51
MootBotLINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3532519:51
ubottuDebian bug 35325 in sysklogd "sysklogd: There should be a way to run sysklogd without root privileges" [Wishlist,Open]19:51
MootBotLINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=32667719:51
ubottuDebian bug 326677 in sysvinit "sysvinit: Support quiet booting for splash screens?" [Wishlist,Open]19:51
mdzand I will make sure they all have the patches attached in the Debian BTS19:51
kees[action] mdz to attach missing patches for debian bugs 151820 308832 35325 and 326677 (related to LP: #273921)19:52
MootBotACTION received:  mdz to attach missing patches for debian bugs 151820 308832 35325 and 326677 (related to LP: #273921)19:52
ubottuDebian bug 151820 in dhcp3-client "dhcp3-client: Does not send hostname to server by default" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/15182019:52
kees[topic] Select a chair for the next meeting19:52
MootBotNew Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting19:52
keesmdz: you want to just shift to the next meeting?19:53
mdzkees, yes, thanks a lot for filling in19:53
keessure, np.19:53
keesokay, that's it then!19:53
keesthanks everyone for participating!19:53
MootBotMeeting finished at 13:54.19:54
mdzkees, my action is done19:55
keesmdz: okay, thanks19:55
* charlie-tca waves19:59
MootBotMeeting started at 14:00. The chair is charlie-tca.20:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:00
charlie-tcaLet's go ahead with the Xubuntu Community Meeting20:00
charlie-tcaThe full agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings20:00
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Old business20:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Old business20:01
charlie-tcacharlie-tca to check on 11.04 docs - docs were re-written for 11.0420:02
charlie-tca# charlie-tca needs to review Testing wiki pages - done; there are still some items that need to be cleaned up, but it is mostly up to date20:02
highvoltagehey charlie-tca20:02
charlie-tcaHello, highvoltage20:03
charlie-tcaCharlie as Project Lead will draw up a proposal to be added the the Xubuntu Strategy Document for choosing a new Project Lead by community vote20:03
charlie-tcaThis one I have not done20:03
charlie-tcaAny questions on old business?20:03
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Team Updates20:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Team Updates20:04
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Packaging & Development20:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Packaging & Development20:04
highvoltagecharlie-tca: why are you stepping down? other commitments?20:04
charlie-tcamr_pouit: Got an update?20:04
charlie-tcastepping down where?20:04
mr_pouityep, I've a lot of updates20:04
charlie-tcaWe just need a way to decide who the next leader will be when the term expires20:04
highvoltagecharlie-tca: sorry I see I misunderstood20:04
charlie-tcamr_pouit: go ahead20:04
mr_pouit* Fixed a locale issue between gdm and xfce4-session.20:05
mr_pouit* Fixed an issue with xfce4-panel's default settings, sorry for the panel layout breakage ;-)20:05
mr_pouit* Applied upstream patch to fix task grouping/dropdown button issue in xfce4-panel.20:05
mr_pouit* Fixed FTBFS of xfce4-radio-plugin (port to libv4l1, testing welcome).20:05
mr_pouit* Uploaded xubuntu-default-settings to fix the ugly resize/move box for xfwm4, and xubuntu-artwork to include some icon fixes from ochosi.20:05
mr_pouit* Uploaded new bugfix releases for garcon (and another upload to fix a regression found by micahg), xfce4-panel and xfce4-terminal.20:05
mr_pouit* Uploaded a few minutes ago what I found in lp:xubuntu-docs (closed 32 bugs).20:05
mr_pouitvoila :)20:06
charlie-tcathat's a lot20:06
charlie-tcaThank you very much, for doing all that, mr_pouit20:06
charlie-tcaAny questions for development?20:06
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing20:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing20:07
charlie-tcaBeta1 testing and testing in the Global Jam uncovered a couple of issues.20:07
charlie-tcaThanks to pleia2 for testing xubuntu specifically during the jam20:07
charlie-tcaWe are testing the Beta2 image next week, for release on Thursday.20:08
charlie-tcaThen we have only two weeks to the final release20:08
charlie-tcaTo the best of my knowledge, we begin testing the final release on April 2120:09
charlie-tcaany questions?20:09
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Website & Marketing20:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Website & Marketing20:09
charlie-tcaCanonical has not responded to our website staging area request yet20:09
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Artwork20:10
MootBotNew Topic:  Artwork20:10
charlie-tca* icon-theme was updated to fix gdm, xfce-panel-plugins etc.20:10
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Documentation20:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Documentation20:11
charlie-tcaAs mr_pouit said, we will have updated documentation for 11.04. It might not be perfect, but it is much better than what we have had for two releases!20:11
mr_pouityeah, latest commit was 9 weeks ago apparently20:12
charlie-tcaAny questions about any of this?20:12
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Announcements20:12
MootBotNew Topic:  Announcements20:12
charlie-tcaUDS sponsorship approvals/disapprovals went out yesterday.20:13
charlie-tcaSome of us have very slow email, apparently20:13
charlie-tcaBeta 2 next week! Help with testing is always welcome20:13
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Any Other Business - all/anyone20:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business - all/anyone20:14
charlie-tcaWe need to re-examine the meeting dates and times20:14
charlie-tcaThis is not ideal for many of us, now.20:14
charlie-tcaPerhaps this would be best visited on the ML, but the dates are going to be between Monday, Thursday, Friday only20:15
charlie-tcaAny day better than another?20:15
charlie-tcaOkay, anyone want to take this item?20:15
beardygnomeout of the three, monday would be best for me20:16
charlie-tcaGet the email out, organize the new times?20:16
beardygnomei don't mind dropping this on to the ml20:16
beardygnomeseeing as it was me that prompted it :-)20:16
charlie-tca[ACTION] email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Thurs, Fri only for days20:17
MootBotACTION received:  email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Thurs, Fri only for days20:17
charlie-tcaWell, forgot the name, but we know who it is.20:17
charlie-tcaLet's give it two weeks for discussion?20:17
=== hggdh_ is now known as hggdh
charlie-tcamr_pouit: do we need meetings between now and final release? I don't know, myself.20:18
beardygnomei take it we need a time around early evening UTC?20:18
beardygnometo cover both europe and us20:18
charlie-tcayes, normally20:18
mr_pouitcharlie-tca: I don't know, but I don't think there'll be many things to report.20:18
mr_pouitwe're still reachable on #xubuntu-devel anyway.20:19
charlie-tcaI am USA, mr_pouit is france, knome and ochosi are finland, I think20:19
mr_pouit(austria for ochosi I think)20:19
charlie-tcaSorry, didn't mean to get that wrong, but that does make it harder, too.20:20
charlie-tcapleia2 is USA20:20
charlie-tcabut we are two hours apart, too20:20
beardygnomewhy does that make it harder?20:20
charlie-tcaIsn't Austria about 12 hours different?20:21
beardygnomeno, that's australia20:21
beardygnomeaustria is the same timezone as central europe20:21
charlie-tcaI am at 1 pm here, but europe is 9-10pm already20:21
beardygnomein uk, where i am it's 8.2220:22
beardygnomeaustria france and finland will be 9.2220:22
pleia2noon here20:22
charlie-tcaOkay, let's plan to take this up on April 21, we should have something by then, right?20:22
charlie-tcaThat should be a short meeting, too.20:22
charlie-tcaAnything else we need to discuss?20:22
beardygnomeok, i'll email the ml and ask for suggestions for mon, thurs or fri20:23
charlie-tcabeardygnome: I am open to anything from about 12:00 UTC and up20:23
beardygnomeok charlie-tca20:23
charlie-tcagreat! I just am not giving up my weekends yet20:23
beardygnomei guess there's a core group of people who need to be able to make it each week?20:24
charlie-tcaand if we can get others to participate, they might become core too20:24
beardygnomeyou, pleia, knome, mr_pouit, micahg any others at this stage?20:24
beardygnomewould it be better to sort this off-ml first?20:25
charlie-tcaWe have a whole new release next month to start in on. Got to try to get something right?20:25
charlie-tcaHow so?20:25
beardygnomeso that we get a time that's best for the core people first20:26
beardygnomethen open it up for others later20:26
charlie-tcaThat's the hardest part, getting a time that's good for all of us20:26
ScottKGenerally it's better to be transparent from the beginning.20:26
beardygnomei'm just thinking that if loads of people make one suggestion but we go with something else to suit the core people, we might give the wrong impression20:26
charlie-tcaIf you think we can do that, sure. But usually that takes either an email poll or some other poll to set it up20:26
beardygnomei'll go with whatever people think is best20:27
charlie-tcaAnyone really interested in making a meeting will reply with a best time, and if asked, will give two or three best times20:27
beardygnomethat's true20:27
beardygnomei'll stick with emailing the ml then20:28
charlie-tcaWe picked this one because me, mr_pouit, and sometimes ochosi could make it20:28
charlie-tcaAny other business?20:28
beardygnomejust the dev ml at this stage?20:28
charlie-tcaNext meeting April 21, 19:00 UTC20:28
beardygnomeor should i open it up to the users ml too?20:28
charlie-tcayes, beardygnome. Just the devel ML for this one20:29
beardygnomeok, i'll do that now20:29
charlie-tcaUsers will be invited to attend, but let's get the best time for those active20:29
charlie-tcaThanks to all of you for participating! It is great to have more than just me here.20:30
charlie-tcaLet's go do our thing now.20:30
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:30.20:30
micahgcharlie-tca: you realize that's too late to change anything for natty without grave exception, right?20:30
charlie-tcathat's why I didn't plan for next week to have a meeting.20:30
charlie-tcaChanges can not be made at whim anymore20:31
charlie-tcabut reminders to test help, right?20:31
micahgright, but by the 21st images will have been spun20:31
charlie-tcaThat doesn't mean they won't respin for bugs20:31
charlie-tcabasically, everything is froze already, and we get what we have.20:32
charlie-tcaWhat's with this firefox 5 I hear coming in june?20:32
=== Thermi is now known as thermi
amber198Hi All,My company has just recently migrated from a Windows to a Linux farm.  At the moment we don’t have document storage system so we are using Google docs at the present time. We don’t see this as the safest method of document storage so I have been assigned the task of finding a better solution.I have been advised to set an FTP server but this method seems dated and the search functionality isn’t very good and I’ve 21:33
broderamber198: this channel is for ubuntu-related online meetings. you might want to try #ubuntu-server or askubuntu.com21:34
amber198ok, thanks!21:35
=== dgjones is now known as DJones

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!