[16:00] <ogra_> murp
[16:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is NCommander.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407#
[16:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407#
[16:01]  * rsalveti waves
[16:01] <janimo> hi
[16:01] <NCommander> [topic] Action Items from last meeting
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from last meeting
[16:02] <NCommander> [topic] Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G
[16:02]  * ogra_ hasnt found the time :(
[16:02]  * NCommander didnt test
[16:02] <ogra_> well, c/o
[16:02]  * GrueMaster was laid up.
[16:02] <ogra_> we need these tests ...
[16:02] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage
[16:02] <GrueMaster> Done
[16:03] <ogra_> where ? :)
[16:03] <janimo> I have been running with 1G since then
[16:03] <janimo> no issues on my panda
[16:03] <ogra_> janimo, did you build any heavy packages ?
[16:03] <GrueMaster> Link is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/Oneric
[16:03] <ogra_> seems its load related
[16:03] <janimo> and I did builds - not kernels or Qts but smaller packages in and outside of pbuilder
[16:03] <ogra_> GrueMaster, merci :)
[16:04] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to document released images
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to document released images
[16:04] <NCommander> er
[16:04] <NCommander> whoops
[16:04] <janimo> ogra_, right maybe my builds did not push the limits of highmem then
[16:04] <rsalveti> janimo: could be
[16:04] <NCommander> janimo: ogra_ the action item been carried over, lets take that offline
[16:04] <janimo> as predicted Oneiric will have its fair share of misspellings
[16:04] <janimo> Oneric above
[16:05] <rsalveti> I also didn't test, but will fire a kernel build today, since I'm done with the drm stuff
[16:05] <GrueMaster> WIP. Link is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/NattyReleaseNotes
[16:05] <GrueMaster> Finally, right window.
[16:05] <ogra_> yep
[16:05] <NCommander> [topic] everyone, add spec ideas to wiki
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  everyone, add spec ideas to wiki
[16:05]  * NCommander will do so, but hasn yet
[16:06]  * janimo has no ideas
[16:06] <ogra_> janimo, be creative :)
[16:06] <janimo> withing the constrains of the ARM image/FTBFS  work it does not seem easy
[16:07] <janimo> it is either linaro or generic ubuntu desktop material that I can think of
[16:07] <NCommander> janimo: well, right now, its jusy ideas so cook as many as you can and hen weĺl go through it
[16:07] <NCommander> anyway, moving on
[16:07] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[16:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[16:08] <janimo> I guess things like be fater/smaller footprint are things we can always aim for in case we don't have bluprints
[16:08]  * ogra_ would prefer to discuss VIP bugs instead of WIs 
[16:08] <NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[16:08] <janimo> faster
[16:08] <NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html
[16:08] <ogra_> given the freeze is on monday
[16:08] <rsalveti> looking bad because of the gles spec
[16:08] <rsalveti> yeah, saw the changes related with the compiz package
[16:09] <rsalveti> and don't think they will accept as compiz is such a core package now
[16:09] <ogra_> hmm
[16:09] <rsalveti> and they want it to be very stable for the release
[16:09] <rsalveti> the development to have gles support is not yet complete, but already have something
[16:09] <rsalveti> nux is still not started
[16:10] <ogra_> well, postpone what you have to
[16:10] <rsalveti> yeah, and then we can start working with a ppa
[16:10] <NCommander> anyone else or canI move on?
[16:11] <rsalveti> but besides that things looks ok
[16:11] <rsalveti> the edid bp is finally "done"
[16:11] <rsalveti> waiting some more testing from GrueMaster so I can send the pull request to the kernel team
[16:11] <rsalveti> and finish the bp
[16:11] <GrueMaster> I'll try to get some done today.
[16:12] <rsalveti> cool, thanks
[16:12] <GrueMaster> kernel in your chinstap directory?
[16:12] <rsalveti> with the drm driver I'm now able to get 1400x900@60-32bpp since the first boot with my monitor
[16:12] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: will post the link in some minutes
[16:13] <GrueMaster> k
[16:13] <rsalveti> still uploading
[16:13] <ogra_> heh, NCommander whats that one last item you have there
[16:13] <rsalveti> looks a lot better than before
[16:13] <ogra_> improving internet in china ? :)
[16:14] <rsalveti> I'm done, if you want to move
[16:14] <ogra_> yeah, move
[16:14] <NCommander> [topic] Unity 2d status
[16:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2d status
[16:15] <ogra_> will get the final code drop today or tomorrow
[16:15] <ogra_> nothing else to report, upstream works their asses off
[16:15] <ogra_> move unless there are questions
[16:16] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[16:16] <ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ti-omap4/+bug/746137
[16:17] <ogra_> thats our main focus beyond the highmem an sound issues
[16:17] <rsalveti> same bug also affects beagle xm
[16:17] <rsalveti> because of the smsc driver
[16:17] <rsalveti> yup
[16:17] <ogra_> right, any fix in sight before freeze ?
[16:18] <rsalveti> not atm, for now just that workaround
[16:18] <rsalveti> will try to debug it properly
[16:18] <ogra_> tell me if i have to set sysctl from jasper ... if its not ready by monday
[16:18] <rsalveti> maybe ppisati could also help us here
[16:18] <ogra_> yeah
[16:18] <rsalveti> ogra_: cool
[16:18] <ogra_> NCommander, didnt you add ppisati to the topic list of people ?
[16:19]  * ogra_ sees only cooloney and rsalveti 
[16:19] <rsalveti> and for omap 4 there are lots of discussions about latest rebase
[16:19] <NCommander> ogra_: I don remember being asked
[16:20] <ogra_> last meeting iirc :)
[16:20] <ogra_> anyway, please add him next time so he gets pinged
[16:20] <rsalveti> so I believe we should have a new update, with a new rebase and latest kernel stable updates soon
[16:20] <rsalveti> kernel freeze is 14th
[16:21] <ogra_> rsalveti, beta freeze is 11th
[16:21] <ogra_> will be hard to upload anything from monday on
[16:21] <ogra_> final freeze is 14th too
[16:21] <rsalveti> well, for kernel we don't need to have another upload now
[16:21] <rsalveti> it's more if they will accept in the kernel tree
[16:22] <rsalveti> after 14th all patches should also have a sru
[16:22] <ogra_> yes
[16:22] <ogra_> but ince i add the sysctl setting for the workaround it will be hard to remove again
[16:22] <ogra_> Once
[16:22] <ogra_> so i would prefer an in-kernel fix if any possible
[16:22] <rsalveti> yeah, me too
[16:23] <NCommander> can Imove?
[16:23] <rsalveti> fine by me
[16:23] <NCommander> [topic]ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[16:24] <NCommander> mono upstream believes they have the SMP bug properly fixed, as soon as I get my panda up, Iĺl ben validating there work
[16:24] <NCommander> otherwise nothing to report
[16:25] <NCommander> janimo: anything to report?
[16:25] <janimo> nope, going trhrough ftbfs slowly
[16:25] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[16:25] <ogra_> how does main look like atm ?
[16:26] <janimo> NCommander, planning to add proper mono fix if it works instead of disabling SMP workaround?
[16:26] <NCommander> janimo: will discuss with the SRU team on the subject
[16:26] <ogra_> is anyone looking at the kde issues ?
[16:27] <ogra_> seems there is still a lot
[16:27] <ogra_> hmm, and gnome-games and tomboy
[16:27] <GrueMaster> Community has been on top of it recently.
[16:27] <ogra_> great
[16:28] <GrueMaster> kdethat is.
[16:28] <ogra_> yes, got that
[16:28] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[16:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[16:28] <ogra_> so image status ...
[16:28] <ogra_> NCommander, !
[16:28] <janimo> tomboy only ftbfs in pbuilder , builds otherwise
[16:28] <GrueMaster> Not much to report here.
[16:28] <janimo> I investigat
[16:28] <ogra_> NCommander, stop moving without asking please
[16:28] <janimo> gnome-games is some egl-clutter issue
[16:29] <janimo> did not look into yet
[16:29] <ogra_> ok
[16:29] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[16:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[16:29] <ogra_> well, we should be down to 1 package in main by release
[16:29] <janimo> java?
[16:29] <ogra_> yep
[16:29] <ogra_> thats fails on purpose atm
[16:29] <janimo> agree
[16:29] <ogra_> ok
[16:29] <ogra_> images
[16:29] <NCommander> ogra_: it should be marked Not-for-us
[16:29] <NCommander> */nitpick*
[16:29] <ogra_> NCommander, you mean PAS
[16:29] <janimo> I hope kde devs will not upload new packages 1 day before release
[16:30] <janimo> same for gnome for that matter
[16:30] <ogra_> that was discussed and denied afaik
[16:30] <ogra_> NCommander, i dont remember why though, ask doko
[16:30] <GrueMaster> janimo: no such luck.
[16:30] <janimo> PAS ?
[16:30] <ogra_> images ... omap4 builds fine, omap3 ... acorn had issues
[16:30] <ogra_> janimo, pacjkages arch specific
[16:30] <ogra_> the arch override list
[16:31] <janimo> ah
[16:31] <ogra_> NCommander, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-linaro-mx51/+bug/742430 do you feel like implementing a new subarch ?
[16:31] <ogra_> i'm not sure i'll find the time and you are the only other cdimage member that might be able to do it
[16:32] <NCommander> Iḿ not going to spin a new image at this point
[16:32] <ogra_> k, then i'll try to do a nightshift on the weekend or so
[16:32] <NCommander> and will actively attempt to block unless Iḿ overruled by the release team
[16:32] <GrueMaster> 3 weeks before final release we start a new image?
[16:33] <NCommander> If images for mx51 were to be built, they should have started to have been spun ages ago
[16:33] <ogra_> well, seems it was promised to ScottK by someone that we'd do it
[16:33] <ogra_> and its an unsupported community image
[16:33] <NCommander> ogra_: who promised it? Who oversaw it? Who is the image supervisor?
[16:33] <NCommander> ogra_: we have a POLICY in place about spinning images now per last UDS
[16:33] <ogra_> scott is the supervisor and wasnt aware what it takes
[16:33] <GrueMaster> give him rootstock.
[16:33] <ogra_> so he didnt know whom to ping about what
[16:34] <NCommander> ogra_: and it only comes up now?!
[16:34] <ogra_> it came up two weeks ago
[16:34] <NCommander> ogra_: this should have come up before feature freeze
[16:34] <ogra_> i agree
[16:35] <NCommander> Unless the release team signs off on it, Iḿ against any attempts to spin mx51 images
[16:35] <ogra_> release team signs off on it for sure if someone implements the build scripts
[16:35] <Riddell> ogra_: kde packages are compiling now, we haven't had any failures so far, just ones waiting on other packages
[16:35] <GrueMaster> I have to agree here.
[16:35] <ogra_> its an unsupported headless image
[16:35] <Riddell> janimo: no big uploads planned now that 4.6.2 is in
[16:35] <ogra_> it has been discussed in #ubuntu-release for a while
[16:36] <ogra_> Riddell, awesome !
[16:36]  * NCommander wonders why we even bother to have freezes anymore
[16:36] <ogra_> NCommander, who cares about freezes for an unsupported image we are not responsible for
[16:37] <GrueMaster> my problem is that whenever a new imagew is made, I inveritbly end up gaving to test itand any updates.
[16:37] <ogra_> its not that we take any responsibility, but we are the only ones being able to add the needed scripts
[16:37] <ogra_> GrueMaster, do you have any efika hardware at all ?
[16:37] <NCommander> ogra_: I rather have no image, then a rushed and poorly tested one that ius labeled únsupported´´
[16:37] <GrueMaster> I have babbage3.
[16:37] <ogra_> GrueMaster, not efika :)
[16:37] <ogra_> wouldnt boot
[16:38] <ogra_> so no risk for you
[16:38] <GrueMaster> I have already been asked about it.
[16:38] <NCommander> ogra_: not to menthon that given the kernel incompatibility with babage, this should be a separate subarch and not imx51
[16:38] <ogra_> NCommander, it would be labelled that even if it happened before FF
[16:38] <GrueMaster> Can't they use a linaro image?
[16:38] <ogra_> the mx51 kernel in the archive runs on both
[16:39] <NCommander> ogra_: what it was named is a moot point. The fact that we are three weeks to release, and this is the first Iǘe heard about it
[16:39] <ogra_> (we dont have imx51 at all anymore)
[16:39] <NCommander> s/was/is/g
[16:39] <NCommander> It also sets a very bad precident
[16:40] <ogra_> NCommander, well, its not mandatory that we write the scripts, its just a nice gestzure towards the community if we do
[16:40] <GrueMaster> Linaro has headless images.  Point to them.
[16:40] <ogra_> we will have to do it for O then
[16:40] <NCommander> ogra_: fine, lets do it for o-cycle. I object to having poorly tested things let out the door, even on the label of unsupported
[16:40] <ogra_> GrueMaster, community actually wants a kde image
[16:40] <NCommander> ogra_: we have KDE images
[16:40] <ogra_> headless was a fallback because i denied the changes
[16:41] <ogra_> NCommander, that run on the efikasb or efikamx ?
[16:41] <NCommander> ogra_: you are obviously missing the point, and I see no futher progress is to be made here
[16:41] <NCommander> lets take this offline
[16:41] <ogra_> NCommander, anyway, if you dont want to do it, i'll see if i can manage, if not we have to do it in O
[16:41] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[16:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[16:42]  * ogra_ wasnt done with images yet
[16:42] <GrueMaster> Not much to report, as I am personally in recovery mode.
[16:42] <GrueMaster> sigh.
[16:43] <ogra_> there were some changes to jasper i'd like verified by a third party (works here) ...
[16:43] <GrueMaster> is itin today's image?
[16:44] <ogra_> the sysctl chnages for SD cards were moved to a different file, i would appreciate if someone testing the images could check it lands in /etc/sysctl.d properly
[16:44] <ogra_> GrueMaster, should be
[16:44] <GrueMaster> then I'll test it later today.
[16:44] <ogra_> and the TI icon should be on the desktop ... if not, please shout at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/ti-omap4-software-channel/+bug/747247
[16:45] <ogra_> if its clearly there i can file a removal bug for the package
[16:45] <GrueMaster> ok
[16:45] <ogra_> (doesnt need to work, i can fix that later still, but needs to show up)
[16:45]  * ogra_ is done 
[16:45] <ogra_> NCommander, move
[16:46] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[16:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:46] <ogra_> i have two bugs we should look at ...
[16:46] <ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libdebian-installer/+bug/744862
[16:46] <ogra_> libdebian-installer needs a fix, i'm not sure i'll get to it ...
[16:47] <ogra_> mainly cosmetic, but it fixes archdetect (not sure if we use it anywhere atm)
[16:47] <ogra_> and the sound bug will need testing once we get the patches in
[16:47] <rsalveti> yeah, lots of testing
[16:47] <rsalveti> quite lots of changes
[16:47] <GrueMaster> We also need UCM config for beaglexm
[16:47] <ogra_> that will be very very short termed, so please everyone do a stresstest once you see an alsa-libs upload
[16:48] <ogra_> GrueMaster, feel free to create one, i dont think TI will provide one
[16:48] <GrueMaster> Currently Beagle alsa works, but you need to muck with alsaixer.
[16:48] <rsalveti> yeah, xm should be on our hands
[16:48] <ogra_> and i wouldnt know who else uses UCM on beagle yet
[16:48] <GrueMaster> I'll try, but I am limited in mobility atm.
[16:48] <ogra_> so you cant get one anywhere
[16:49] <ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-lib/+bug/746023 has a config for omap4
[16:49] <ogra_> you might be able to derive something from it
[16:49] <ogra_> thats all i had ...
[16:50] <GrueMaster> anyone else?
[16:51] <NCommander> I'm closing the meeting in 3
[16:52] <NCommander> 2
[16:52] <NCommander> 1
[16:52] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[16:52] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:52.
[18:58] <kees> \o
[19:00] <kees> Keybuk: just us so far. mdz, pitti, and cjwatson are all unable to attend. haven't seen sabdfl yet.
[19:01] <kees> Keybuk: er, no, wait, I only see email from pitt and cjwatson. mdz, are you here?
[19:02] <mdz> kees, we had a discussion on #ubuntu-devel earlier where it sounded like nobody could make it :-/
[19:02] <kees> mdz: well, if you and sabdfl aren't here, then we don't have quorum.
[19:03] <Keybuk> kees: clearly my prediction of a rebel 11am Pacific Time meeting with 2 people was accurate :p
 mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda seems to be rather empty right now, do we have something urgent to discuss?
[19:03] <mdz>  mdz: currently asking myself whether I can weasel out of this today, and go to a friend's bday party
 oh argh, I forgot about that - I can't make today's meeting, sorry
 pitti, I may have to miss it too...
[19:03] <mdz> I'm waiting to find out if a phone call is off or on
[19:04] <kees> there's 1 item on the agenda that I see. I haven't checked the bug list yet, but the mailing list is clear
[19:08] <kees> mdz: so, I assume we're going to cancel this week then?
[19:09] <mdz> kees, I'm available unless I get an email saying my call is on :-)
[19:09] <mdz> I can't chair
[19:09] <mdz> looks like I can participate though
[19:10] <kees> dmandell's topic likely can't wait another 2 weeks given Natty's release schedule. :P
[19:10] <mdz> is there an email on it? i haven't seen it
[19:10] <kees> I'll chair
[19:10] <kees> #startmeeting
[19:10] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:10. The chair is kees.
[19:10] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:10] <kees> [topic] action review
[19:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  action review
[19:11] <kees> looks like everything got done from last time (cjwatson sent email about the moderation team)
[19:11] <mdz> sorry about flaking as chair
[19:11] <kees> [topic] Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell)
[19:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell)
[19:11] <kees> dmandell: hi! what did you want to cover on this? sounds like this is a reaction to Unity.
[19:12] <dmandell> kees: Sure.  I've had some time to use Unity and just don't think it's a suitable default desktop environment for Ubuntu.
[19:13] <dmandell> There are some frustrating bugs and inconsistencies with the left-side dockbar.
[19:13] <dmandell> And some pretty important (to me at least) things have been stripped out of the desktop environment.
[19:13] <dmandell> The system tray appears to have disappeared for instance... there's no easy way through the menuing system to find settings, stuff like that.
[19:13] <kees> I've seen a very long list of bugs on unity myself. mdz, what's the justification for switching to unity by default? it hasn't really seemed "ready" to me (and to others).
[19:14] <Keybuk> me neither
[19:14] <Keybuk> I'm actually planning to recommend to friends and family that they don't upgrade to natty; based on my experience with Unity in its current state
[19:14] <Keybuk> though "Classic Gnome Desktop" at this point is also a difficult point, since GNOME changed its shell in its current release too
[19:15] <Keybuk> and I'm not convinced that's any better either
[19:15] <mdz> kees, the justification is varied, but basically amounts to: it's the future, and we should get going
[19:15] <kees> Keybuk: right, gnome 3 doesn't look much better, but the gnome 2 stuff seems better off. menu-bar and session saving needs restoration there, though.
[19:16] <mdz> the plan was to use it as default, and evaluate late in the cycle if it was possible to stabilize it in time
[19:16] <mdz> such that we could fall back if it wasn't ready, in classic time-box fashion
[19:16] <kees> mdz: at the cost of users and bad media attention? that doesn't seem right. unity is certainly "the future", but it doesn't seem stable enough for "default" use to me.
[19:16] <dmandell> mdz: I can understand the desire to want to make big changes, but there's just so much wrong with the way it works now.
[19:16] <Keybuk> mdz: that was my understanding, I don't believe that the release team have performed their "evaluation" at this point?
[19:16] <mdz> dmandell, I think everyone is aware that it's not releasable in its current state
[19:17] <dmandell> Why not make Classic Gnome the default environment and let those who want to use the "next big thing" switch to Unity?
[19:17] <mdz> but there's a lot of work underway to fix the remaining issues
[19:17] <kees> it seems like we're at the critical moment then, since we're 2 weeks from final images.
[19:17] <mdz> Keybuk, I understood it to be scheduled for "beta"
[19:17] <mdz> which is not so specific now that we have two
[19:17] <mdz> I'm asking rickspencer3 in another window for clarification
[19:17] <mdz> ah, but he's at lunch
[19:18] <mdz> pitti would surely know the status as well, but he couldn't be here today
[19:18] <Keybuk> to me, just at gut level, this is a -release decision
[19:18] <kees> the recency of serious behavioral bugs in unity does not fill me with confidence that current fixes will encompass "the remaining issues".
[19:18] <Keybuk> until such time as -release make a decision that the developers disagree with, and then refer it to TB
[19:18] <mdz> we may need to take this offline unless we have good desktop team representation here
[19:19] <mdz> Keybuk, I agree in principle
[19:19] <Keybuk> while I do feel strongly about this, I do feel we have a release team for a reason and shouldn't reempt them on things we have delegated to them
[19:19] <mdz> though I fully expect it to be a controversial decision and get punted up to the TB
[19:19] <Keybuk> especially when they have a pending decision to make
[19:19] <kees> well, perhaps then the question is "who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame"
[19:20] <kees> our next meeting isn't until the 21st which seems Too Late to me. we'd need an out-of-band discussion on the mailing list.
[19:20] <mdz> kees, the latter question is one I really should have a better answer for, but I just got back from holidays+travel and I'm a bit out of the loop this week
[19:20] <mdz> we could convene a special meeting if needed
[19:20]  * kees nods
[19:21] <mdz> dmandell, is this answering your question?
[19:21] <dmandell> mdz: I guess it depends on when/where the special meeting is and whether or not I'll be able to be involved.
[19:22] <kees> dmandell: it sounds like a lot of bug fixes are currently going in, and that the ubuntu release team may reevaluate this at the next beta release (apr 14th). if things are still not okay my your estimation, and the release team hasn't decided to pull unity, then it might be time to raise this again to the tech board via the mailing list.
[19:22] <mdz> oh hi rickspencer3
[19:22] <rickspencer3> hiya
[19:22] <dmandell> kees: Alright then.
[19:22] <kees> s/my/by
[19:22] <mdz> rickspencer3, I was hoping you could update us on the status of evaluating Unity as default
[19:22] <rickspencer3> sure
[19:22] <mdz> AIUI there was a plan to evaluate at "beta" (i.e. nowish)
[19:22] <kees> heya rickspencer3, thanks for joining us
[19:22] <rickspencer3> hi kees
[19:23] <rickspencer3> did I miss the discussion?
[19:23] <mdz> rickspencer3, I've pasted you a URL to a pastebin with the meeting backlog
[19:23] <kees> rickspencer3: a bit yes. :)
[19:23] <kees> ah, mdz beat me to it.
[19:23] <mdz> there wasn't too much discussion because the TB members who are present don't have answers :-)
[19:24] <kees> some of the unanswered questions I posed are:
[19:24] <kees> "who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame"
[19:24] <mdz> (pitti, cjwatson and sabdfl couldn't make it today)
[19:25] <rickspencer3> these are toughies
[19:25] <mdz> I guess rickspencer3 is reading the backlog :-)
[19:25] <rickspencer3> yeah
[19:25] <rickspencer3> and also thinking
[19:25] <rickspencer3> these aren't easy questions
[19:25] <mdz> rickspencer3, I know we planned to do an evaluation around this point in the cycle. did it happen already? what was the result?
[19:25] <rickspencer3> so, I've been tracking progress closely, and in my determination it is ready
[19:25] <mdz> can the facts be made available to the release team and/or TB for consideration?
[19:26] <rickspencer3> so, I've been representing my viewpoint on the readiness on my blog:
[19:26] <rickspencer3> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/unity-almost-there.html
[19:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/unity-almost-there.html
[19:26] <kees> rickspencer3: is there some place that documents maybe a subset of dmandell's noted missing features and behaviors? if people still see unity as a regression, that doesn't seem like the best way to go for natty.
[19:26] <rickspencer3> in my estimation, Unity will be ready, and we should go for it
[19:27] <rickspencer3> well, there is never a perfect overlap between two products, each will have features the other lacks
[19:27] <davmor2> rickspencer3: thanks for the spider web by the way :)
[19:27] <rickspencer3> davmor2 ;)
[19:28] <rickspencer3> so, I feel that we are shipping a really solid experience in that you can choose "classic" in login
[19:28] <kees> so what's the hierarchy for the decision making? desktop < release < techboard ?
[19:28] <rickspencer3> but net/net I think users will be best served wtih Unity
[19:28] <rickspencer3> kees, are you asking me?
[19:28] <rickspencer3> I think this is always an ambiguous area
[19:28] <mdz> kees, that sounds about right
[19:28] <dmandell> rickspencer3: Some of the programs I use today are seriously impacted without being able to place their icons in the system tray.
[19:29] <kees> rickspencer3: asking you, yeah. mdz wasn't fully sure.
[19:29] <dmandell> rickspencer3: that seems like a regression.
[19:29] <rickspencer3> dmandell, well, there is a workaround for that
[19:29] <rickspencer3> but, those apps will stop working in mainline GNOME as well
[19:30] <kees> rickspencer3: I'm also concerned (based on other people's reports as well as my own observations) that Classic is affected by unity too (top-menu panel, lack of session saving, indicators, etc) Classic isn't really classic.
[19:30] <jcastro> (it should be noted that the systray has been on the chopping block for a year, and would have likely been removed anyway unity or not)
[19:30] <kees> rickspencer3: not in our gnome 2 mainline. they'll break for sure in gnome 3.
[19:31] <rickspencer3> kees, except for the top-menu panel, all that stuff has been in Ubuntu for several releases
[19:31] <kees> but that's not really the question. unity (and gnome 3) are clearly the future. it seems the question is about using it by default in natty.
[19:31] <james_w> session saving going was independent of unity wasn't it?
[19:31] <kees> rickspencer3: ah, so classic ubuntu desktop, not classic gnome desktop. fair enough.
[19:31] <rickspencer3> kees, right, I think Unity is so much better then the classic experience, it should be the default
[19:31] <kees> james_w: not sure; I haven't used it. I just heard about it as a regression from maverick.
[19:32] <chrisccoulson> james_w, yes. that feature has been way too unreliable for ages
[19:32] <kees> rickspencer3: okay, cool.
[19:32] <rickspencer3> kees, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just saying what I think
[19:32] <rickspencer3> since I think that's what I was asked
[19:32] <rickspencer3> so, my "decision" is that we should default to Unity
[19:33] <kees> rickspencer3: sure, and that matters. I'm just trying to sort out what the chain of decision-making is to make sure dmandell goes to the right place.
[19:33] <rickspencer3> however, it's not clear to me that this my "Decision" to make, certainly not unilateraly
[19:33] <rickspencer3> in that case, I would suggest that we take it as a given that we will default to Unity, and he should escelate to here
[19:34] <rickspencer3> kees, did that answer your question from my POV?
[19:34] <mdz> I think that in the spirit of the do-ocracy, the folks doing the work (in this case Canonical) get first crack at decisions like these
[19:34] <kees> rickspencer3: yeah, totally.
[19:34] <mdz> but when questions are raised, the conflict should be resolved through the community government
[19:35] <kees> rickspencer3: I think I'm trying to figure out how community member should engage us when they disagree with something like this.
[19:35] <rickspencer3> kees, well, I think raising it here is good
[19:35] <mdz> kees, I think what dmandell has done is entirely appropriate
[19:35] <rickspencer3> I also think that the desktop list is a good place to discuss as well
[19:36] <mdz> if there hasn't already been a public debate about this, that would be surprising to say the least
[19:36] <mdz> we had a lot of discussion early in the cycle of course, but if there's a reckoning to be done, that should be fully transparent as well
[19:37] <kees> dmandell: if over the next week you aren't satisfied with the progress made on Unity, would you be able to raise your objections again, but to the desktop list (and/or tech-board list)?
[19:37] <mdz> kees, I don't think we should make this dmandell's responsibility to track and raise again
[19:37] <Keybuk> kees: I would say release list not desktop
[19:37] <dmandell> kees:  Sure, next week is the beta2 release, right?
[19:37] <Keybuk> because the desktop team have made their decision at this point, and now would be the appropriate time to discuss with them
[19:37] <Keybuk> "in a week" would be release team to me
[19:38] <mdz> if the desktop team has made a decision, and there's no URL where I can read about it, then that needs to be unwound as job #1
[19:38] <Keybuk> mdz: perhaps we should organise a town hall meeting the week after beta2 in concert with the desktop and release teams?
[19:38] <kees> Keybuk: fair point. mdz: right also.  but who should drive that then?
[19:38] <dmandell> I know this is rather late in the game, but I was taken aback by how buggy the interface was ostensibly 3 weeks before release.
[19:38] <Keybuk> for people to voice their concerns, and for all decision makers to be present
[19:38] <kees> dmandell: yeah, next thu is the beta 2 scheduled release
[19:38] <mdz> Keybuk, I think the sooner the better, when we actually have a chance of influencing the outcome
[19:38] <rickspencer3> I think I should send an email to desktop list
[19:39] <Keybuk> mdz: I would agree - but also people should at least be talking about the proposed final version (which I assume will be in beta2 and isn't in now?)
[19:39] <rickspencer3> stating that I have decided that we should default to unity
[19:39] <mdz> if there are serious bugs remaining which haven't gotten attention, then we should give the Unity team every opportunity to address them, and that means giving them time
[19:39] <Keybuk> if the current HEAD is proposed final, then anytime ;)
[19:39] <mdz> Keybuk, I for one would appreciate hearing from the Unity team which issues they are tracking and which are expected to be fixed for release
[19:39] <ScottK> Wasn't Unity by default sabdfl'ed in at the start of UDS?
[19:39] <mdz> even though that work won't be in HEAD yet
[19:40] <ScottK> (in which case the lack of public discussion on a decision would hardly be suprising)
[19:40] <rickspencer3> ScottK, yes, that was the stated intention
[19:40] <mdz> ScottK, yes, but with the understanding that we would run with it during the cycle, and evaluate (as we do with everything else) whether it was ready in time
[19:40] <mdz> it's not a fait accompli
[19:40] <Keybuk>                ^
[19:41] <Keybuk>                d'
[19:41] <Keybuk> :p
[19:41] <mdz> the question of whether the code is ready to release isn't a planning decision, it's a fact-based judgement
[19:41] <kees> okay, so then, should this public evaluation happen now or after beta2?
[19:41] <mdz> I suggest ASAP
[19:41] <mdz> it doesn't have to be all at once
[19:41] <mdz> maybe a preliminary airing of the issues and the plan for resolution
[19:41] <mdz> and then we can decide whether there's a need for more than that
[19:42] <rickspencer3> mdz, from my point of view, the remaining issues are compiz crashers
[19:42] <rickspencer3> but those are getting picked off quickly
[19:42] <mdz> rickspencer3, thanks, but I'd like to get a more comprehensive view than that
[19:42] <kees> rickspencer3: will you start the thread on the -desktop list then? I'm trying to find some 'actions' out of this topic. :)
[19:43] <mdz> e.g.: here is the list of the most serious bugs and their anticipated final status in 11.04
[19:43] <mdz> then people can look at that list and comment
[19:43] <mdz> e.g. if a particular issue is missing but considered serious
[19:43] <rickspencer3> mdz, kees, ok, I can do this this afternoon
[19:43] <rickspencer3> I'll do it on the desktop list
[19:43] <mdz> or, they can look at it and say "if those things are resolved, I agree it will be ready for release"
[19:43] <rickspencer3> it will take me some time to compose
[19:44] <rickspencer3> sound okay?
[19:44] <mdz> we can help people (including the TB) get an informed opinion
[19:44] <kees> [action] rickspencer3 will bring up the state of unity on the -desktop list for public review and discussion
[19:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rickspencer3 will bring up the state of unity on the -desktop list for public review and discussion
[19:44] <mdz> rickspencer3, sounds great
[19:44] <mdz> dmandell, that work for you?
[19:44] <rickspencer3> thanks to dmandell for triggering this discussion, btw
[19:44] <dmandell> mdz: yup.
[19:44] <dmandell> rickspencer: no problem.  I'm glad I can be involved.
[19:45] <kees> cool, thanks rickspencer3, dmandell :)
[19:45] <kees> [topic] the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
[19:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
[19:46] <kees> does the Zeitgeist email need a response from us?
[19:48] <kees> I assume not, or that it will go to the mailing list. moving on...
[19:48] <kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[19:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[19:48] <kees> nothing new in the list, but there are still 3 bugs listed
[19:49] <kees> 273921 seems solved?
[19:50] <kees> oh, no, there is no redirect.
[19:50] <kees> that's in IS's court.
[19:50] <kees> (did I netsplit?)
[19:50] <mdz> I think it's obsolete and can be closed
[19:50] <kees> 273921? okay
[19:51] <mdz> there are only four bugs remaining open
[19:51] <mdz> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=151820
[19:51] <mdz> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=308832
[19:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=151820
[19:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=308832
[19:51] <mdz> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=35325
[19:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=35325
[19:51] <mdz> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=326677
[19:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=326677
[19:51] <mdz> and I will make sure they all have the patches attached in the Debian BTS
[19:52] <kees> [action] mdz to attach missing patches for debian bugs 151820 308832 35325 and 326677 (related to LP: #273921)
[19:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to attach missing patches for debian bugs 151820 308832 35325 and 326677 (related to LP: #273921)
[19:52] <kees> [topic] Select a chair for the next meeting
[19:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
[19:53] <kees> mdz: you want to just shift to the next meeting?
[19:53] <mdz> kees, yes, thanks a lot for filling in
[19:53] <kees> sure, np.
[19:53] <kees> okay, that's it then!
[19:53] <kees> thanks everyone for participating!
[19:54] <kees> #endmeeting
[19:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:54.
[19:55] <mdz> kees, my action is done
[19:55] <kees> mdz: okay, thanks
[19:59]  * charlie-tca waves
[20:00] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[20:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:00. The chair is charlie-tca.
[20:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Let's go ahead with the Xubuntu Community Meeting
[20:00] <charlie-tca> The full agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[20:01] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
[20:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
[20:02] <charlie-tca> charlie-tca to check on 11.04 docs - docs were re-written for 11.04
[20:02] <charlie-tca> # charlie-tca needs to review Testing wiki pages - done; there are still some items that need to be cleaned up, but it is mostly up to date
[20:02] <highvoltage> hey charlie-tca
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Hello, highvoltage
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Charlie as Project Lead will draw up a proposal to be added the the Xubuntu Strategy Document for choosing a new Project Lead by community vote
[20:03] <charlie-tca> This one I have not done
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Any questions on old business?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team Updates
[20:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Updates
[20:04] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
[20:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
[20:04] <highvoltage> charlie-tca: why are you stepping down? other commitments?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Got an update?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> stepping down where?
[20:04] <mr_pouit> yep, I've a lot of updates
[20:04] <charlie-tca> We just need a way to decide who the next leader will be when the term expires
[20:04] <highvoltage> charlie-tca: sorry I see I misunderstood
[20:04] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: go ahead
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Fixed a locale issue between gdm and xfce4-session.
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Fixed an issue with xfce4-panel's default settings, sorry for the panel layout breakage ;-)
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Applied upstream patch to fix task grouping/dropdown button issue in xfce4-panel.
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Fixed FTBFS of xfce4-radio-plugin (port to libv4l1, testing welcome).
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Uploaded xubuntu-default-settings to fix the ugly resize/move box for xfwm4, and xubuntu-artwork to include some icon fixes from ochosi.
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Uploaded new bugfix releases for garcon (and another upload to fix a regression found by micahg), xfce4-panel and xfce4-terminal.
[20:05] <mr_pouit> * Uploaded a few minutes ago what I found in lp:xubuntu-docs (closed 32 bugs).
[20:06] <mr_pouit> voila :)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> wOw!
[20:06] <charlie-tca> that's a lot
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Thank you very much, for doing all that, mr_pouit
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Any questions for development?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
[20:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Beta1 testing and testing in the Global Jam uncovered a couple of issues.
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Thanks to pleia2 for testing xubuntu specifically during the jam
[20:08] <charlie-tca> We are testing the Beta2 image next week, for release on Thursday.
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Then we have only two weeks to the final release
[20:09] <charlie-tca> To the best of my knowledge, we begin testing the final release on April 21
[20:09] <charlie-tca> any questions?
[20:09] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
[20:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Canonical has not responded to our website staging area request yet
[20:10] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
[20:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
[20:10] <charlie-tca> * icon-theme was updated to fix gdm, xfce-panel-plugins etc.
[20:11] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Documentation
[20:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation
[20:11] <charlie-tca> As mr_pouit said, we will have updated documentation for 11.04. It might not be perfect, but it is much better than what we have had for two releases!
[20:12] <mr_pouit> yeah, latest commit was 9 weeks ago apparently
[20:12] <charlie-tca> Any questions about any of this?
[20:12] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
[20:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
[20:13] <charlie-tca> UDS sponsorship approvals/disapprovals went out yesterday.
[20:13] <charlie-tca> Some of us have very slow email, apparently
[20:13] <charlie-tca> Beta 2 next week! Help with testing is always welcome
[20:14] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business - all/anyone
[20:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business - all/anyone
[20:14] <charlie-tca> We need to re-examine the meeting dates and times
[20:14] <charlie-tca> This is not ideal for many of us, now.
[20:14] <mr_pouit> +1
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Perhaps this would be best visited on the ML, but the dates are going to be between Monday, Thursday, Friday only
[20:15] <beardygnome> +1
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Any day better than another?
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Okay, anyone want to take this item?
[20:16] <beardygnome> out of the three, monday would be best for me
[20:16] <charlie-tca> Get the email out, organize the new times?
[20:16] <beardygnome> i don't mind dropping this on to the ml
[20:16] <beardygnome> seeing as it was me that prompted it :-)
[20:17] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Thurs, Fri only for days
[20:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Thurs, Fri only for days
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Well, forgot the name, but we know who it is.
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Let's give it two weeks for discussion?
[20:18] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: do we need meetings between now and final release? I don't know, myself.
[20:18] <beardygnome> i take it we need a time around early evening UTC?
[20:18] <beardygnome> to cover both europe and us
[20:18] <charlie-tca> yes, normally
[20:18] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: I don't know, but I don't think there'll be many things to report.
[20:19] <mr_pouit> we're still reachable on #xubuntu-devel anyway.
[20:19] <charlie-tca> I am USA, mr_pouit is france, knome and ochosi are finland, I think
[20:19] <mr_pouit> (austria for ochosi I think)
[20:20] <charlie-tca> ouch
[20:20] <charlie-tca> Sorry, didn't mean to get that wrong, but that does make it harder, too.
[20:20] <charlie-tca> pleia2 is USA
[20:20] <charlie-tca> but we are two hours apart, too
[20:20] <beardygnome> why does that make it harder?
[20:21] <charlie-tca> Isn't Austria about 12 hours different?
[20:21] <beardygnome> no, that's australia
[20:21] <charlie-tca> oh
[20:21] <beardygnome> austria is the same timezone as central europe
[20:21] <charlie-tca> I am at 1 pm here, but europe is 9-10pm already
[20:22] <beardygnome> in uk, where i am it's 8.22
[20:22] <beardygnome> austria france and finland will be 9.22
[20:22] <pleia2> noon here
[20:22] <charlie-tca> Okay, let's plan to take this up on April 21, we should have something by then, right?
[20:22] <charlie-tca> That should be a short meeting, too.
[20:22] <charlie-tca> Anything else we need to discuss?
[20:23] <beardygnome> ok, i'll email the ml and ask for suggestions for mon, thurs or fri
[20:23] <charlie-tca> beardygnome: I am open to anything from about 12:00 UTC and up
[20:23] <beardygnome> ok charlie-tca
[20:23] <charlie-tca> great! I just am not giving up my weekends yet
[20:24] <beardygnome> i guess there's a core group of people who need to be able to make it each week?
[20:24] <charlie-tca> yes
[20:24] <charlie-tca> and if we can get others to participate, they might become core too
[20:24] <beardygnome> you, pleia, knome, mr_pouit, micahg any others at this stage?
[20:25] <charlie-tca> ochosi,
[20:25] <charlie-tca> you
[20:25] <beardygnome> thanks
[20:25] <beardygnome> would it be better to sort this off-ml first?
[20:25] <charlie-tca> We have a whole new release next month to start in on. Got to try to get something right?
[20:25] <charlie-tca> How so?
[20:26] <beardygnome> so that we get a time that's best for the core people first
[20:26] <beardygnome> then open it up for others later
[20:26] <charlie-tca> That's the hardest part, getting a time that's good for all of us
[20:26] <ScottK> Generally it's better to be transparent from the beginning.
[20:26] <beardygnome> i'm just thinking that if loads of people make one suggestion but we go with something else to suit the core people, we might give the wrong impression
[20:26] <charlie-tca> If you think we can do that, sure. But usually that takes either an email poll or some other poll to set it up
[20:27] <beardygnome> i'll go with whatever people think is best
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Anyone really interested in making a meeting will reply with a best time, and if asked, will give two or three best times
[20:27] <beardygnome> that's true
[20:28] <beardygnome> i'll stick with emailing the ml then
[20:28] <charlie-tca> We picked this one because me, mr_pouit, and sometimes ochosi could make it
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Okay
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Any other business?
[20:28] <beardygnome> just the dev ml at this stage?
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Next meeting April 21, 19:00 UTC
[20:28] <beardygnome> or should i open it up to the users ml too?
[20:29] <charlie-tca> yes, beardygnome. Just the devel ML for this one
[20:29] <beardygnome> ok, i'll do that now
[20:29] <charlie-tca> Users will be invited to attend, but let's get the best time for those active
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Thanks to all of you for participating! It is great to have more than just me here.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Let's go do our thing now.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:30.
[20:30] <micahg> charlie-tca: you realize that's too late to change anything for natty without grave exception, right?
[20:30] <charlie-tca> yes
[20:30] <micahg> k
[20:30] <charlie-tca> that's why I didn't plan for next week to have a meeting.
[20:31] <charlie-tca> Changes can not be made at whim anymore
[20:31] <charlie-tca> but reminders to test help, right?
[20:31] <micahg> right, but by the 21st images will have been spun
[20:31] <charlie-tca> That doesn't mean they won't respin for bugs
[20:32] <charlie-tca> basically, everything is froze already, and we get what we have.
[20:32] <charlie-tca> What's with this firefox 5 I hear coming in june?
[20:34] <micahg> yep
[21:33] <amber198> Hi All,My company has just recently migrated from a Windows to a Linux farm.  At the moment we don’t have document storage system so we are using Google docs at the present time. We don’t see this as the safest method of document storage so I have been assigned the task of finding a better solution.I have been advised to set an FTP server but this method seems dated and the search functionality isn’t very good and I’ve 
[21:34] <broder> amber198: this channel is for ubuntu-related online meetings. you might want to try #ubuntu-server or askubuntu.com
[21:35] <amber198> ok, thanks!