=== yofel_ is now known as yofel === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan === thermi is now known as Thermi === doko_ is now known as doko === Thermi is now known as thermi === thermi is now known as Thermi [16:00] murp [16:00] #startmeeting [16:00] Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is NCommander. [16:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:00] [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407# [16:00] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110407# [16:01] * rsalveti waves [16:01] hi [16:01] [topic] Action Items from last meeting [16:01] New Topic: Action Items from last meeting [16:02] [topic] Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G [16:02] New Topic: Everyone with a panda to test panda with mem=1G [16:02] * ogra_ hasnt found the time :( [16:02] * NCommander didnt test [16:02] well, c/o [16:02] * GrueMaster was laid up. [16:02] we need these tests ... [16:02] [topic] GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage [16:02] New Topic: GrueMaster to create OnericIdeas wikipage [16:02] Done [16:03] where ? :) [16:03] I have been running with 1G since then [16:03] no issues on my panda [16:03] janimo, did you build any heavy packages ? [16:03] Link is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/Oneric [16:03] seems its load related [16:03] and I did builds - not kernels or Qts but smaller packages in and outside of pbuilder [16:03] GrueMaster, merci :) [16:04] [topic] GrueMaster to document released images [16:04] New Topic: GrueMaster to document released images [16:04] er [16:04] whoops [16:04] ogra_, right maybe my builds did not push the limits of highmem then [16:04] janimo: could be [16:04] janimo: ogra_ the action item been carried over, lets take that offline [16:04] as predicted Oneiric will have its fair share of misspellings [16:04] Oneric above [16:05] I also didn't test, but will fire a kernel build today, since I'm done with the drm stuff [16:05] WIP. Link is https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/ARM/NattyReleaseNotes [16:05] Finally, right window. [16:05] yep [16:05] [topic] everyone, add spec ideas to wiki [16:05] New Topic: everyone, add spec ideas to wiki [16:05] * NCommander will do so, but hasn yet [16:06] * janimo has no ideas [16:06] janimo, be creative :) [16:06] withing the constrains of the ARM image/FTBFS work it does not seem easy [16:07] it is either linaro or generic ubuntu desktop material that I can think of [16:07] janimo: well, right now, its jusy ideas so cook as many as you can and hen weĺl go through it [16:07] anyway, moving on [16:07] [topic] Standing Items [16:07] New Topic: Standing Items [16:08] I guess things like be fater/smaller footprint are things we can always aim for in case we don't have bluprints [16:08] * ogra_ would prefer to discuss VIP bugs instead of WIs [16:08] [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html [16:08] New Topic: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html [16:08] faster [16:08] [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html [16:08] New Topic: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-2.html [16:08] given the freeze is on monday [16:08] looking bad because of the gles spec [16:08] yeah, saw the changes related with the compiz package [16:09] and don't think they will accept as compiz is such a core package now [16:09] hmm [16:09] and they want it to be very stable for the release [16:09] the development to have gles support is not yet complete, but already have something [16:09] nux is still not started [16:10] well, postpone what you have to [16:10] yeah, and then we can start working with a ppa [16:10] anyone else or canI move on? [16:11] but besides that things looks ok [16:11] the edid bp is finally "done" === robbiew1 is now known as robbiew [16:11] waiting some more testing from GrueMaster so I can send the pull request to the kernel team [16:11] and finish the bp [16:11] I'll try to get some done today. [16:12] cool, thanks [16:12] kernel in your chinstap directory? [16:12] with the drm driver I'm now able to get 1400x900@60-32bpp since the first boot with my monitor [16:12] GrueMaster: will post the link in some minutes [16:13] k [16:13] still uploading [16:13] heh, NCommander whats that one last item you have there [16:13] looks a lot better than before [16:13] improving internet in china ? :) [16:14] I'm done, if you want to move [16:14] yeah, move [16:14] [topic] Unity 2d status [16:14] New Topic: Unity 2d status [16:15] will get the final code drop today or tomorrow [16:15] nothing else to report, upstream works their asses off [16:15] move unless there are questions [16:16] [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti) [16:16] New Topic: Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti) [16:16] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ti-omap4/+bug/746137 [16:17] Ubuntu bug 746137 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "Page allocation failure on omap4" [High,New] [16:17] thats our main focus beyond the highmem an sound issues [16:17] same bug also affects beagle xm [16:17] because of the smsc driver [16:17] yup [16:17] right, any fix in sight before freeze ? [16:18] not atm, for now just that workaround [16:18] will try to debug it properly [16:18] tell me if i have to set sysctl from jasper ... if its not ready by monday [16:18] maybe ppisati could also help us here [16:18] yeah [16:18] ogra_: cool [16:18] NCommander, didnt you add ppisati to the topic list of people ? [16:19] * ogra_ sees only cooloney and rsalveti [16:19] and for omap 4 there are lots of discussions about latest rebase [16:19] ogra_: I don remember being asked [16:20] last meeting iirc :) [16:20] anyway, please add him next time so he gets pinged [16:20] so I believe we should have a new update, with a new rebase and latest kernel stable updates soon [16:20] kernel freeze is 14th [16:21] rsalveti, beta freeze is 11th [16:21] will be hard to upload anything from monday on [16:21] final freeze is 14th too [16:21] well, for kernel we don't need to have another upload now [16:21] it's more if they will accept in the kernel tree [16:22] after 14th all patches should also have a sru [16:22] yes [16:22] but ince i add the sysctl setting for the workaround it will be hard to remove again [16:22] Once [16:22] so i would prefer an in-kernel fix if any possible [16:22] yeah, me too [16:23] can Imove? [16:23] fine by me [16:23] [topic]ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo) [16:23] New Topic: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo) [16:24] mono upstream believes they have the SMP bug properly fixed, as soon as I get my panda up, Iĺl ben validating there work [16:24] otherwise nothing to report [16:25] janimo: anything to report? [16:25] nope, going trhrough ftbfs slowly [16:25] [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [16:25] New Topic: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [16:25] how does main look like atm ? [16:26] NCommander, planning to add proper mono fix if it works instead of disabling SMP workaround? [16:26] janimo: will discuss with the SRU team on the subject [16:26] is anyone looking at the kde issues ? [16:27] seems there is still a lot [16:27] hmm, and gnome-games and tomboy [16:27] Community has been on top of it recently. [16:27] great [16:28] kdethat is. [16:28] yes, got that [16:28] [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster) [16:28] New Topic: QA Status (GrueMaster) [16:28] so image status ... [16:28] NCommander, ! [16:28] tomboy only ftbfs in pbuilder , builds otherwise [16:28] Not much to report here. [16:28] I investigat [16:28] NCommander, stop moving without asking please [16:28] gnome-games is some egl-clutter issue [16:29] did not look into yet [16:29] ok [16:29] [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [16:29] New Topic: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [16:29] well, we should be down to 1 package in main by release [16:29] java? [16:29] yep [16:29] thats fails on purpose atm [16:29] agree [16:29] ok [16:29] images [16:29] ogra_: it should be marked Not-for-us [16:29] */nitpick* [16:29] NCommander, you mean PAS [16:29] I hope kde devs will not upload new packages 1 day before release [16:30] same for gnome for that matter [16:30] that was discussed and denied afaik [16:30] NCommander, i dont remember why though, ask doko [16:30] janimo: no such luck. [16:30] PAS ? [16:30] images ... omap4 builds fine, omap3 ... acorn had issues [16:30] janimo, pacjkages arch specific [16:30] the arch override list [16:31] ah [16:31] NCommander, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-linaro-mx51/+bug/742430 do you feel like implementing a new subarch ? [16:31] Ubuntu bug 742430 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "FFe to start making mx51 images" [Wishlist,Triaged] [16:31] i'm not sure i'll find the time and you are the only other cdimage member that might be able to do it [16:32] Iḿ not going to spin a new image at this point [16:32] k, then i'll try to do a nightshift on the weekend or so [16:32] and will actively attempt to block unless Iḿ overruled by the release team [16:32] 3 weeks before final release we start a new image? [16:33] If images for mx51 were to be built, they should have started to have been spun ages ago [16:33] well, seems it was promised to ScottK by someone that we'd do it [16:33] and its an unsupported community image [16:33] ogra_: who promised it? Who oversaw it? Who is the image supervisor? [16:33] ogra_: we have a POLICY in place about spinning images now per last UDS [16:33] scott is the supervisor and wasnt aware what it takes [16:33] give him rootstock. [16:33] so he didnt know whom to ping about what [16:34] ogra_: and it only comes up now?! [16:34] it came up two weeks ago [16:34] ogra_: this should have come up before feature freeze [16:34] i agree [16:35] Unless the release team signs off on it, Iḿ against any attempts to spin mx51 images [16:35] release team signs off on it for sure if someone implements the build scripts [16:35] ogra_: kde packages are compiling now, we haven't had any failures so far, just ones waiting on other packages [16:35] I have to agree here. [16:35] its an unsupported headless image [16:35] janimo: no big uploads planned now that 4.6.2 is in [16:35] it has been discussed in #ubuntu-release for a while [16:36] Riddell, awesome ! [16:36] * NCommander wonders why we even bother to have freezes anymore [16:36] NCommander, who cares about freezes for an unsupported image we are not responsible for [16:37] my problem is that whenever a new imagew is made, I inveritbly end up gaving to test itand any updates. [16:37] its not that we take any responsibility, but we are the only ones being able to add the needed scripts [16:37] GrueMaster, do you have any efika hardware at all ? [16:37] ogra_: I rather have no image, then a rushed and poorly tested one that ius labeled únsupported´´ [16:37] I have babbage3. [16:37] GrueMaster, not efika :) [16:37] wouldnt boot [16:38] so no risk for you [16:38] I have already been asked about it. [16:38] ogra_: not to menthon that given the kernel incompatibility with babage, this should be a separate subarch and not imx51 [16:38] NCommander, it would be labelled that even if it happened before FF [16:38] Can't they use a linaro image? [16:38] the mx51 kernel in the archive runs on both [16:39] ogra_: what it was named is a moot point. The fact that we are three weeks to release, and this is the first Iǘe heard about it [16:39] (we dont have imx51 at all anymore) [16:39] s/was/is/g [16:39] It also sets a very bad precident [16:40] NCommander, well, its not mandatory that we write the scripts, its just a nice gestzure towards the community if we do [16:40] Linaro has headless images. Point to them. [16:40] we will have to do it for O then [16:40] ogra_: fine, lets do it for o-cycle. I object to having poorly tested things let out the door, even on the label of unsupported [16:40] GrueMaster, community actually wants a kde image [16:40] ogra_: we have KDE images [16:40] headless was a fallback because i denied the changes [16:41] NCommander, that run on the efikasb or efikamx ? [16:41] ogra_: you are obviously missing the point, and I see no futher progress is to be made here [16:41] lets take this offline [16:41] NCommander, anyway, if you dont want to do it, i'll see if i can manage, if not we have to do it in O [16:41] [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster) [16:41] New Topic: QA Status (GrueMaster) [16:42] * ogra_ wasnt done with images yet [16:42] Not much to report, as I am personally in recovery mode. [16:42] sigh. [16:43] there were some changes to jasper i'd like verified by a third party (works here) ... [16:43] is itin today's image? [16:44] the sysctl chnages for SD cards were moved to a different file, i would appreciate if someone testing the images could check it lands in /etc/sysctl.d properly [16:44] GrueMaster, should be [16:44] then I'll test it later today. [16:44] and the TI icon should be on the desktop ... if not, please shout at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/ti-omap4-software-channel/+bug/747247 [16:44] Ubuntu bug 747247 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu Natty) "No TI icon in favorites on omap4 netbook images" [High,In progress] [16:45] if its clearly there i can file a removal bug for the package [16:45] ok [16:45] (doesnt need to work, i can fix that later still, but needs to show up) [16:45] * ogra_ is done === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha [16:45] NCommander, move [16:46] [topic] AOB [16:46] New Topic: AOB [16:46] i have two bugs we should look at ... [16:46] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libdebian-installer/+bug/744862 [16:46] Ubuntu bug 744862 in libdebian-installer (Ubuntu Natty) "/proc/cpuinfo strings for OMAP4 devices changed with 2.6.38 kernels" [Medium,New] [16:46] libdebian-installer needs a fix, i'm not sure i'll get to it ... [16:47] mainly cosmetic, but it fixes archdetect (not sure if we use it anywhere atm) [16:47] and the sound bug will need testing once we get the patches in [16:47] yeah, lots of testing [16:47] quite lots of changes [16:47] We also need UCM config for beaglexm [16:47] that will be very very short termed, so please everyone do a stresstest once you see an alsa-libs upload [16:48] GrueMaster, feel free to create one, i dont think TI will provide one [16:48] Currently Beagle alsa works, but you need to muck with alsaixer. [16:48] yeah, xm should be on our hands [16:48] and i wouldnt know who else uses UCM on beagle yet [16:48] I'll try, but I am limited in mobility atm. [16:48] so you cant get one anywhere [16:49] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-lib/+bug/746023 has a config for omap4 [16:49] Ubuntu bug 746023 in alsa-lib (Ubuntu) "No sound on omap4" [Medium,New] [16:49] you might be able to derive something from it [16:49] thats all i had ... [16:50] anyone else? [16:51] I'm closing the meeting in 3 [16:52] 2 [16:52] 1 [16:52] #endmeeting [16:52] Meeting finished at 10:52. === Guest86158 is now known as MichealH [18:58] \o [19:00] Keybuk: just us so far. mdz, pitti, and cjwatson are all unable to attend. haven't seen sabdfl yet. [19:01] Keybuk: er, no, wait, I only see email from pitt and cjwatson. mdz, are you here? [19:02] kees, we had a discussion on #ubuntu-devel earlier where it sounded like nobody could make it :-/ [19:02] mdz: well, if you and sabdfl aren't here, then we don't have quorum. [19:03] kees: clearly my prediction of a rebel 11am Pacific Time meeting with 2 people was accurate :p [19:03] mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda seems to be rather empty right now, do we have something urgent to discuss? [19:03] mdz: currently asking myself whether I can weasel out of this today, and go to a friend's bday party [19:03] oh argh, I forgot about that - I can't make today's meeting, sorry [19:03] pitti, I may have to miss it too... [19:03] I'm waiting to find out if a phone call is off or on [19:04] there's 1 item on the agenda that I see. I haven't checked the bug list yet, but the mailing list is clear [19:08] mdz: so, I assume we're going to cancel this week then? [19:09] kees, I'm available unless I get an email saying my call is on :-) [19:09] I can't chair [19:09] looks like I can participate though [19:10] dmandell's topic likely can't wait another 2 weeks given Natty's release schedule. :P [19:10] is there an email on it? i haven't seen it [19:10] I'll chair [19:10] #startmeeting [19:10] Meeting started at 13:10. The chair is kees. [19:10] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [19:10] [topic] action review [19:10] New Topic: action review [19:11] looks like everything got done from last time (cjwatson sent email about the moderation team) [19:11] sorry about flaking as chair [19:11] [topic] Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell) [19:11] New Topic: Classic Gnome Desktop by default (dmandell) [19:11] dmandell: hi! what did you want to cover on this? sounds like this is a reaction to Unity. [19:12] kees: Sure. I've had some time to use Unity and just don't think it's a suitable default desktop environment for Ubuntu. [19:13] There are some frustrating bugs and inconsistencies with the left-side dockbar. [19:13] And some pretty important (to me at least) things have been stripped out of the desktop environment. [19:13] The system tray appears to have disappeared for instance... there's no easy way through the menuing system to find settings, stuff like that. [19:13] I've seen a very long list of bugs on unity myself. mdz, what's the justification for switching to unity by default? it hasn't really seemed "ready" to me (and to others). [19:14] me neither [19:14] I'm actually planning to recommend to friends and family that they don't upgrade to natty; based on my experience with Unity in its current state [19:14] though "Classic Gnome Desktop" at this point is also a difficult point, since GNOME changed its shell in its current release too [19:15] and I'm not convinced that's any better either [19:15] kees, the justification is varied, but basically amounts to: it's the future, and we should get going [19:15] Keybuk: right, gnome 3 doesn't look much better, but the gnome 2 stuff seems better off. menu-bar and session saving needs restoration there, though. [19:16] the plan was to use it as default, and evaluate late in the cycle if it was possible to stabilize it in time [19:16] such that we could fall back if it wasn't ready, in classic time-box fashion [19:16] mdz: at the cost of users and bad media attention? that doesn't seem right. unity is certainly "the future", but it doesn't seem stable enough for "default" use to me. [19:16] mdz: I can understand the desire to want to make big changes, but there's just so much wrong with the way it works now. [19:16] mdz: that was my understanding, I don't believe that the release team have performed their "evaluation" at this point? [19:16] dmandell, I think everyone is aware that it's not releasable in its current state [19:17] Why not make Classic Gnome the default environment and let those who want to use the "next big thing" switch to Unity? [19:17] but there's a lot of work underway to fix the remaining issues [19:17] it seems like we're at the critical moment then, since we're 2 weeks from final images. [19:17] Keybuk, I understood it to be scheduled for "beta" [19:17] which is not so specific now that we have two [19:17] I'm asking rickspencer3 in another window for clarification [19:17] ah, but he's at lunch [19:18] pitti would surely know the status as well, but he couldn't be here today [19:18] to me, just at gut level, this is a -release decision [19:18] the recency of serious behavioral bugs in unity does not fill me with confidence that current fixes will encompass "the remaining issues". [19:18] until such time as -release make a decision that the developers disagree with, and then refer it to TB [19:18] we may need to take this offline unless we have good desktop team representation here [19:19] Keybuk, I agree in principle [19:19] while I do feel strongly about this, I do feel we have a release team for a reason and shouldn't reempt them on things we have delegated to them [19:19] though I fully expect it to be a controversial decision and get punted up to the TB [19:19] especially when they have a pending decision to make [19:19] well, perhaps then the question is "who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame" [19:20] our next meeting isn't until the 21st which seems Too Late to me. we'd need an out-of-band discussion on the mailing list. [19:20] kees, the latter question is one I really should have a better answer for, but I just got back from holidays+travel and I'm a bit out of the loop this week [19:20] we could convene a special meeting if needed [19:20] * kees nods [19:21] dmandell, is this answering your question? [19:21] mdz: I guess it depends on when/where the special meeting is and whether or not I'll be able to be involved. [19:22] dmandell: it sounds like a lot of bug fixes are currently going in, and that the ubuntu release team may reevaluate this at the next beta release (apr 14th). if things are still not okay my your estimation, and the release team hasn't decided to pull unity, then it might be time to raise this again to the tech board via the mailing list. [19:22] oh hi rickspencer3 [19:22] hiya [19:22] kees: Alright then. [19:22] s/my/by [19:22] rickspencer3, I was hoping you could update us on the status of evaluating Unity as default [19:22] sure [19:22] AIUI there was a plan to evaluate at "beta" (i.e. nowish) [19:22] heya rickspencer3, thanks for joining us [19:22] hi kees [19:23] did I miss the discussion? [19:23] rickspencer3, I've pasted you a URL to a pastebin with the meeting backlog [19:23] rickspencer3: a bit yes. :) [19:23] ah, mdz beat me to it. [19:23] there wasn't too much discussion because the TB members who are present don't have answers :-) [19:24] some of the unanswered questions I posed are: [19:24] "who makes the decision", "who would people go to have that decision reversed", and "what is the time-frame" [19:24] (pitti, cjwatson and sabdfl couldn't make it today) [19:25] these are toughies [19:25] I guess rickspencer3 is reading the backlog :-) [19:25] yeah [19:25] and also thinking [19:25] these aren't easy questions [19:25] rickspencer3, I know we planned to do an evaluation around this point in the cycle. did it happen already? what was the result? [19:25] so, I've been tracking progress closely, and in my determination it is ready [19:25] can the facts be made available to the release team and/or TB for consideration? [19:26] so, I've been representing my viewpoint on the readiness on my blog: [19:26] http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/unity-almost-there.html [19:26] LINK received: http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/unity-almost-there.html [19:26] rickspencer3: is there some place that documents maybe a subset of dmandell's noted missing features and behaviors? if people still see unity as a regression, that doesn't seem like the best way to go for natty. [19:26] in my estimation, Unity will be ready, and we should go for it [19:27] well, there is never a perfect overlap between two products, each will have features the other lacks [19:27] rickspencer3: thanks for the spider web by the way :) [19:27] davmor2 ;) [19:28] so, I feel that we are shipping a really solid experience in that you can choose "classic" in login [19:28] so what's the hierarchy for the decision making? desktop < release < techboard ? [19:28] but net/net I think users will be best served wtih Unity [19:28] kees, are you asking me? [19:28] I think this is always an ambiguous area [19:28] kees, that sounds about right [19:28] rickspencer3: Some of the programs I use today are seriously impacted without being able to place their icons in the system tray. [19:29] rickspencer3: asking you, yeah. mdz wasn't fully sure. [19:29] rickspencer3: that seems like a regression. [19:29] dmandell, well, there is a workaround for that [19:29] but, those apps will stop working in mainline GNOME as well [19:30] rickspencer3: I'm also concerned (based on other people's reports as well as my own observations) that Classic is affected by unity too (top-menu panel, lack of session saving, indicators, etc) Classic isn't really classic. [19:30] (it should be noted that the systray has been on the chopping block for a year, and would have likely been removed anyway unity or not) [19:30] rickspencer3: not in our gnome 2 mainline. they'll break for sure in gnome 3. [19:31] kees, except for the top-menu panel, all that stuff has been in Ubuntu for several releases [19:31] but that's not really the question. unity (and gnome 3) are clearly the future. it seems the question is about using it by default in natty. [19:31] session saving going was independent of unity wasn't it? [19:31] rickspencer3: ah, so classic ubuntu desktop, not classic gnome desktop. fair enough. [19:31] kees, right, I think Unity is so much better then the classic experience, it should be the default [19:31] james_w: not sure; I haven't used it. I just heard about it as a regression from maverick. [19:32] james_w, yes. that feature has been way too unreliable for ages [19:32] rickspencer3: okay, cool. [19:32] kees, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just saying what I think [19:32] since I think that's what I was asked [19:32] so, my "decision" is that we should default to Unity [19:33] rickspencer3: sure, and that matters. I'm just trying to sort out what the chain of decision-making is to make sure dmandell goes to the right place. [19:33]