awilkinsPlanned 32 bit00:00
awilkinsI'm on 64 anyway to support ludicrous Java RAM gobblers00:00
hamitronlike minecraft00:00
directhexoh, of course, sims medieval i sims 3 engine, so is mono-based00:00
ali1234what is local type inference?00:06
hamitronali1234: I cheated and used google http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb384937.aspx#Y20000:12
ali1234yeah i don't understand that00:12
hamitronsounds like some sort of guessing the variable type00:13
ali1234it reads like, if applied to C, it means you could write "x = 10;" instead of "int x = 10;" ... but only inside a function...00:13
hamitronnot something I've ever used, when mostly coding in C00:13
ali1234i don't see how that makes any sense or is useful to anyone at all00:13
hamitronuseful for scripting00:14
hamitronor lazy people00:14
ali1234most scripting languages are weakly typed anyway00:14
hamitronmy opinion is coders are been given the tools to get sloppier and sloppier, and some are not gaining a lot of the skills required to be "reliable"00:15
hamitronwhen coding with older methods00:16
ali1234either i'm misunderstanding this, or it's just another dumb idea presented as the fix for all problems00:16
hamitronI suspect it is what you think00:17
hamitronmother's day email offers for last few weeks.... now the easter offers :/00:35
ali1234http://www.mono-project.com/MoMA <- is this thingumy packaged on ubuntu?00:37
hamitronali1234: wouldn't most people test such things on windows before switching everything?00:42
directhexali1234, no. there's not much point since you want the latest version with the latest sigantures00:42
ali1234hamitron: that's not really the point, it's a mono app, should run anywhere00:42
hamitronah, k00:43
directhexit runs fine.00:43
ali1234directhex: actually what i would want is a version that matches the version of mono on ubuntu, so it can tell me if some random mono app i downloaded will work or not00:43
directhexbut it's not hugely valuable to package00:43
directhexali1234, oh... i see. that's a reasonable idea00:43
ali1234not that i download mono/.net apps or anything :)00:43
hamitronali1234: you just wanted to clear that up? ;)00:44
ali1234yes :)00:44
ali1234do windows users still download random shareware apps from websites?00:45
* hamitron does00:45
ali1234eg tucows, are they still going?00:45
ali1234i mean the aggregator sites... or do most people go to the developer's site these days?00:46
ali1234tucows was basically an appstore before anyone even heard of an appstore00:46
hamitronthings are still about, but I've grown out/tired of breaking things00:46
hamitronali1234: lies, Apple invented it00:47
ali1234i thought valve invented it00:47
directhexali1234 earns a wry smile00:47
directhexisn't apt-get the first app store? :>00:47
ali1234no, cos you can't browse with apt-get00:48
hamitronsuppose a ftp server with loads of apps for download is....00:48
ali1234tucows had screenshots and reviews of apps in like 199600:48
gordtucows was all shareware and demos, you couldn't buy anything - it was just a file server really00:50
hamitronso an appstore is like a fileserver, but demands money for individual things....?00:51
ali1234i think there was a a similar site where you could buy shareware stuff00:51
ali1234probably called "downloadbestwindowsshareware.com" or something00:51
ali123499% of those domains are virus sites now00:51
shaunotucows is pretty much a scumbucket now too :/00:52
ali1234man, i remember the days when we laughed at the idea of getting a virus on email00:52
hamitroncomputers and the internet are just a "tool" for the masses now00:54
shaunothis is just the usual trolling tho :/00:54
hamitronnot much better than tv00:54
hamitronI hate the term trolling00:56
shaunoirks me when people pick a falsehood and run it into the ground00:56
shaunoapple don't claim to have invented the appstore concept/model.  they just trademarked 'app store' itself, because they were the first to name it that.00:56
shaunobut feel free to whine away about who claims they invented what :)00:57
hamitronI hate claims to general terms too00:57
hamitronman, I need to stop moaning :/00:57
ali1234who actually did invent it though?00:58
* txwikinger seriously doubts the trademark would stand up if challenged00:58
ali1234txwikinger: it's being challenged now i thought?00:58
shaunoit has & is being challenged.00:58
txwikingerA grocery cannot trademark the term apple00:58
txwikingerYeah I think so00:58
shaunoif this is such a general term, who else was using it?00:58
hamitrondid MS get the right to the term "Windows"?00:59
txwikingerit is not about using it00:59
shaunosure it is.00:59
ali1234apple vs amazon00:59
ali1234so, amazon00:59
txwikingerif it is a term that is in general use in your field of business, you cannot trademark it - does not matter what00:59
txwikingerhamitron: Windows is different00:59
shaunoso "general use" = "a term no-one ever used" ?01:00
txwikingerno.. it has to be a general term in your field of business01:00
shaunookay, who in that field of business was using it01:00
hamitronthe term "app" has been used for a long time, and a "store" is too01:00
txwikingerThe beatles where able to trademark the term Apple records or whatever, since an apple has nothing to do with music01:00
shaunoyes, because trademarks are always in context01:01
txwikingerA super market could never trademark the term apple01:01
txwikingerApp is clearly a term in general use in the software business01:01
ali1234i'm sure they could if apple was a brand applied to many products other than apples01:02
shaunoit is now, because everyone's trying to emulate their success.01:02
shaunofact is, "app store" was not a common term, at all, by any reach of the imagination, before apple launched a product named thus.01:02
txwikingerWell.  application and short app was used for a long time01:03
ali1234it's just "hoover" all over again01:03
ali1234they have to defend it01:03
txwikingerI think app shop was01:03
ali1234apple could have called it "whargarble" and now everyone would be trying to make their own "whargarble"01:04
shaunoright.  and everyone would be claiming that whargarble was a perfectly common term :)01:04
txwikingerapp store is like if a grocery would trademark the term grocery01:04
ali1234it's more like if the first ever supermarket had tried to trademark the word supermarket01:04
hamitron"whargarble" does not use any terms in it01:04
directhexit's spelt wharrgarbl01:05
ali1234no, wharrgarbl is a common term, you can;t trademark that :)01:05
hamitronI dunno why they don't just shut the door, so others can't move in on their market01:07
hamitronby offering good value and service01:07
ali1234actually there is a similar example: 7-eleven is trademarked01:07
ali1234even though you might argue it's a common term, at least in america01:08
shauno'windows' is trademarked.  you can trademark generic terms within specific scopes.01:08
hamitronshauno: that is silly too01:08
shaunosure.  but otherwise there'd be nothing stopping me launching a magazine in the UK named 'computer shopper'.  I mean.  they're generic terms.01:10
hamitronand I'd agree you should be able to01:10
PalaPad_Trademark only applies if someone is trying to mislead others with an association to a registered Mark01:10
PalaPad_Just using the phrase app store would not be likely to lead to a successful case in court01:11
PalaPad_Mark holder needs to proves that the defendant is trying to mislead or consume others01:11
PalaPad_Rem silly iPad01:12
PalaPad_Mislead others01:12
hamitronreckon Apple own "i"?01:12
shaunoso you're telling me that a US court would agree that apple computer was trying to mislead customers by conflicting with apple records?01:12
ali1234there have been a few cases over iWhatevers01:13
PalaPad_So unless apple can prove that someone is trying to make people believe another app store is associated with apple or likely to lead people to believe it is, apple will not win01:13
hamitronI reckon Apple are trying to implement the I-Robot movie01:14
PalaPad_And that is why apple are likely to lose this one01:14
hamitronand it is all gonna go wrong01:14
ali1234handy checklist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_litigation_of_Apple_Computer01:14
PalaPad_Because ms can make reasoned arguments that no-one will confuse Ms app store with apple app store01:15
ali1234intel's is called "appup"01:15
PalaPad_Given the high profile of both brands01:15
shaunoI think the catch there is that it's rarely referred to as 'the apple app store'.  it's just "on the app store".01:16
PalaPad_Furthermore windows apps will not work on iOS01:16
PalaPad_So apple have very little chance of winning this battle01:16
ali1234that's the killer01:16
shaunoand I do believe MS are intentionally piggybacking that because their 900-odd apps can't compete otherwise.01:16
ali1234there's no way you can accidentally buy from the wrong one01:16
PalaPad_The only reason they are trying to enforce the trademark is for publicity really01:16
shaunobecause they need lawsuits for publicity?  for the 7 remaining people who haven't heard of them?01:17
shaunoyou can very easily be mislead into buying the wrong one01:17
PalaPad_They need to show they are not afraid of Microsoft01:17
PalaPad_It is just a big pr game01:17
PalaPad_Plus it would make it difficult for apple to then defend other trademarks against smaller companies01:18
shaunoyou hear some new racing game is out on the app store.  so you pull out your windows phone, punch up the clone store, and find ... what.01:18
PalaPad_They would be seen as vexatious01:18
hamitronthey were never given the set of toy soldiers they wanted as a kid.....01:18
PalaPad_Brb food01:19
shaunoyou certainly don't get told "no, this is halfords, we sell airfreshners.  you were looking for metal in the record store".  you get sold some subpar crap and the sale is hijacked.01:20
ali1234but you're just as likely to buy some knock-off from the real appstore01:20
shaunoand that maybe is exactly what MS are trying to gain, because their platform hasn't found any other way to compete01:21
hamitrontbh, it is tough drawing a line :/01:21
hamitronnon-generic terms of today will be accepted and thought of as generic tomorrow.... but then if someone who started it has the "rights" you can't have competition01:22
shaunosure you can.  you just don't call it the same thing.01:23
shaunoyou can sell a cooker without calling it an aga.01:23
shaunothis isn't any kind of rights over the model.  just the name.01:23
hamitronwhat about the term podcasts?01:24
directhex"app store" is pretty freaking generic01:24
directhexhamitron, that's a more interesting case, since it's based on a trademark - but isn't quite, and isn't apple's term to begin with01:24
shaunopeople keep saying this.  yet no-one can actually show it being used pre-apple01:24
ali1234we used to call it "downloading an mp3"01:25
hamitronwell, podcast is a generic term now, used on a lot of websites01:25
shaunoI mean appstore.  podcast was derivative but never anyone's to lose01:25
ali1234i don't like inventing new terms for things anyway01:25
hamitronif you assume apple do have the right to it.... how do other manufacturers "support" podcasts with their products?01:26
ali1234they should have called the ipod "the portable music in mp3 format listening box with white headphones"01:26
directhexi can see apple trying to lay claim to "app".01:26
hamitronhaha ali123401:26
shaunothat's what makes it completely different to "grocery store".  no-one called it an app store before them.  it was never generic.01:27
hamitronit is 2 generic terms01:27
shaunoso's safeway01:28
ali1234this is a pointless argument anyway, since the outcome of the case basically defines what the law says01:28
ali1234when it's decided then we can argue about if the judge made the right decision01:28
hamitron"debate" ;)01:28
hamitronargue sounds like we are biting chunks out of each other :/01:29
ali1234i just wanted to know how windows users get software these days01:29
shaunoI just wanted to point out that "haha, no apple invented the app store wink wink" was just FUD  :)01:30
hamitron"I am a windows user and get my apps from the web, and I have another program called AVG that automatically uninstalls them after use"01:30
ali1234well yeah01:30
ali1234i guess the answer is they add them on facebook01:31
PalaPad_It is all very well getting emotional, but from a legal perspective apple have very little chance of winning this01:31
hamitronso what is the best way to make a new trademark to work under?01:33
PalaPad_And as a legal scholar I say that with some educated confidence01:33
hamitronas an engineer I love attempting stuff, but the idea of all the legal stuff is just scarey01:34
shaunoso, <company> names their online _music_ store "itunes" in the face of apple's "itunes" trademark, apple wins01:34
PalaPad_Law is my life and I love it01:35
shaunothen <company> names their online _software_ store "app store" in the face of apple's "app store" trademark, and apple doesn't win01:35
PalaPad_But if apple had called iTunes "music Store" theynwould face the same difficulty they face in the app store case01:36
hamitronloosely related.... can someone patent an idea they can't get to work? just the general principle?01:36
shaunohamitron: currently, yes01:36
ali1234hamitron: there's loads of patents like that01:36
PalaPad_A patent has to be accompanied with diagrams01:36
hamitronbut do they stand up?01:36
ali1234for whacky stuff like pyramid healing and stuff01:36
shaunoyou can patent whatever you like.  the more stupid it is, the less chance it'll stand at dispute01:37
PalaPad_But the diagrams can be loosely conceptual01:37
hamitronI saw a patent for a client-server model for online gaming01:37
hamitronwith block diagrams01:37
PalaPad_The diagrams have to be such that anyone with equal skill could reproduce the thing being patented01:38
PalaPad_So strictly speaking you can't patent an idea as a concept01:39
hamitronmy personal attitude is if I made something and it clashed with it, I'd give them the middle finger if they complained01:39
ali1234anyone can build a patended device, you just can't sell it01:40
ali1234and if you're selling it you have something to lose by doing that01:40
PalaPad_But the patent has to provide all the information needed to make that "device"01:40
PalaPad_Which is why software patents are so controversial01:40
ali1234yes. that doesn't guarantee that it actually *works* though01:40
hamitronPalaPad_: so a car that powers itself off the air around it is not worth the paper it is written on?01:41
PalaPad_Not unless you can show how and others can reproduce from that explanation01:41
PalaPad_Although the caveat is US patents usually don't follow the rles01:42
ali1234dowsing rod patent01:42
ali1234anyone can build it, doesn't mean it will work though01:42
PalaPad_Patents are only as good as the patent office overseeing applications01:44
PalaPad_And US patent office is a joke01:44
hamitron1 area I am interested in, is researching renewable forms of energy01:45
hamitronbut a lot have taken gambles in general principles01:45
hamitronand when you read some of them you think, "why bother?"01:46
PalaPad_Anyway I am gonna watch a movie, didn't get home from meeting til 1am so need to chillax a bit01:46
hamitronokies, take care01:46
PalaPad_Finally get to go home tomorrow :)01:46
PalaPad_Will be nice to see my son and missus again01:47
shaunosomeone in the US managed to patent the act of patent trolling :/01:48
shaunowell, I shouldn't say managed.  it was filed atleast01:48
PalaPad_Haliburton filed a patent on filing patents01:48
hamitronpatent trolling would even break the patent for filing patents ;)01:49
hamitronif they were accepted ofc01:50
PalaPad_Not tonight01:55
hamitronevening chaps01:56
PalaPad_Although I am the wrong side of 6 double G&Ts01:56
* Seeker` has been wasting his time starting to write a raytracer01:56
hamitronwasted my evening talking in here, wasted my day with phone calls and problems01:58
hamitrongot nothing productive done, like gaming01:58
PalaPad_Spent my evening in a meeting01:58
directhexsponsored lots of packages01:58
hamitron5 hours left for sleep02:03
hamitronso better get off02:03
shaunosomeone really needs to come out with some new drive enclosures.  trying to read 500Gb over usb is pretty weak :/02:05
directhexshauno, thunderbolt!02:09
shaunoI know! but no-one's actually selling them yet :/02:09
shaunostill waiting to find out what the price is gonna be on http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=1054902:10
MattJSeeker`: aspiring name :)02:29
MattJand congratulations for being the reason I've opened my first .bmp file for almost 10 years02:29
HazRPGseems we had a bit of a breakup on the server but we are all back together again... morning \o05:25
knightwisemorning everybody06:35
knightwisehow are you MartijnVdS06:38
MartijnVdSbrak :)06:39
shaunoSilly question, but anyone know how to change keymap from the xp login screen?07:21
knightwisein Xp thats still a registry fix07:25
knightwisegoogle " Xp login screen keyboard layout reg fix"07:25
shaunoHm. Bit stuffed until I can login then07:27
HazRPGshauno: having issues with the dvorak :( ?07:27
HazRPGdid you not install it with the dvorak keyset?07:28
shaunoahhhh numpad to the rescue07:29
shaunomuch better :D07:29
shaunofor reasons probably best known to windows, my login screen was set to USian when I got in this morning07:30
shauno.... my password contains a £07:30
HazRPGshauno: heh I use brackets in mine07:30
HazRPGcan't imagine how confusing it is when my laptop plays funny with me and decides that the arabic keyset is my default :/07:31
shaunowhen they came up with this stupid requirement for special characters in passwords, I resorted to using ex-gf's phone numbers while holding down shift.07:31
shaunomay have to rethink this if I can't trust the layout :(07:32
HazRPGwait, who came up with the requirement? work?07:32
HazRPGoh, if your going to change your passwords... for the love of god don't use unprintables >_<07:33
HazRPGI have a friend who set his password to half things like ALT+192 etc...07:34
shaunoapparently, so did I.  I just didn't find out until this morning07:34
HazRPGand well when he went to change his windows password... it wouldn't let him because it couldn't recognise the characters07:34
HazRPGyet windows would let him enter it on startup!07:35
HazRPG(use the password I mean)07:35
HazRPGwhich to me means they have two methods for some reason to check the password :S07:35
knightwiseDear God ! Unprintable passwords07:35
shaunothey most likely do, especially if he's usint the ctrl+alt+delete to login thingie07:36
HazRPGknightwise: its great because they're hard to bruteforce... but not so great when things won't let you change them xD07:36
shaunoI can't remember what linux calls that, it's one of the SysRq incantations07:36
HazRPGI know the CTRL+ALT+DEL login thing07:38
HazRPG"press combo to begin login"07:38
shaunoI think it's sysrq+K (but don't try it, because magic keys are less forgiving than my memory)07:38
shaunoswitches to some kind of raw keyboard access so you know the program you're typing into is the only one receiving the keypresses07:39
shauno(which is the intention with ctrl+alt+del too.  if it's the wrong app, it'll kick you back to the xp security dialog)07:39
HazRPGoh right, I didn't realise that07:40
gordonjcphistorically ctrl-alt-del is actually detected by the keyboard controller and hardwired to a particular interrupt07:40
shaunoah, yeah; definately don't try sysrq+K at the bequest of my memory :)07:41
shauno"Kill all processes on the current virtual console (Can be used to kill X and svgalib programs, see below)07:41
HazRPGI won't :P07:41
shaunoThis was originally designed to imitate a Secure Access Key@07:41
HazRPGhmm, seems I've ran out of stuff to drink at home :/07:42
shaunoif you do it at a tty login tho, you'll kill  everything, respawn a getty, so you know you're getting the login bin the system intends07:42
HazRPGso coffee it is I guess07:42
HazRPGah cool07:43
shaunonot sure ubuntu has sysrq enabled out of the box, but interesting to know that ancient variants of 'ctrl+alt+del to login' are still knocking around :)07:43
HazRPGwhat's more interesting is the fact that SysRq still gets printed on the keyboard!07:45
HazRPGalong with Pause/Break07:46
HazRPGand scroll lock07:46
shaunosysrq should :D  it's really useful once you grow to trust it07:46
HazRPGI'm pretty sure scroll lock is only useful if your at a terminal/command prompt of some description07:46
MooDoohello all07:47
shaunonot sure scroll lock is any use unless the bios is handling the terminal.  which we don't tend to do anymore, because it's uglier than I am07:47
shaunomorning daubers, MooDoo07:47
HazRPGmornin' guys07:48
HazRPGshauno: that was what I kinda meant in my own quirky way07:48
shaunosysrq is useful all over again now that I've discovered you can use it without a local keyboard now :)07:51
shaunoanyhow.  taking 90 minutes to login to windows is my new favourite way to start a shift.07:52
shaunoI'm still waiting for MIS to find me.  thank $deity for internets phones.07:52
HazRPGFear & Loathing in Las Vegas based maybe? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjJEYTiga007:54
shaunofear & loathing is when you call MIS because you're the only person on shift and you don't have a computer07:55
shaunoand a lady in singapore answers07:56
shauno'follow the sun' can bite me, frankly07:57
HazRPG"Don't move!"07:58
HazRPG"I'm not moving!"07:58
HazRPGI suppose I should get some work done today :/08:00
HazRPG*grumbles about having to see a shoddy database*08:00
daubersHazRPG: You can go and train people for me instead if you want08:02
HazRPGdaubers: lol only if you'll build the website I need to make for me ^^08:03
daubersHazRPG: Or! You can teach me how to do 3d design properly :)08:10
* daubers goes to load up the car with heavy expensive things :(08:21
shaunodownside of v6 addresses, is they're not quite so elegant, are they :/08:28
MartijnVdSshauno: they can be08:50
MartijnVdSshauno: 2001:abcd::dead:beef:cafe08:50
shaunoMartijnVdS: I have dead:beef at home :D08:51
shaunoI noticed facebook's god nerded too08:52
shaunoer, *got08:52
shaunowww.v6.facebook.com     has AAAA address 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::308:52
MartijnVdS2001::faec:e5 8-)08:53
shaunoI like to think face:b00c is evidence that someone trapped in a basement somewhere actually has a sense of humour08:54
dwatkinshi folks08:59
dwatkinsis it IPv6 day?08:59
MartijnVdSdwatkins: not yet, but you may assume it is ;)08:59
dwatkinsMartijnVdS: every day should be IPv6 day, of course...09:00
knightwisehmm gnome 3 demo video's on Lifehacker09:02
phonex01hello guys09:06
phonex01how can i make FTP server on my own laptop so i can login to it and manage users and such things09:06
phonex01i mean local FTP serve09:06
lubotu3FTP clients: Nautilus (Places -> Connect to server), gFTP, FileZilla (for !GNOME); Konqueror, Kasablanca, KFTPGrabber (for !KDE); FireFTP (for Firefox); ftp, lftp (for !cli) - See also !FTPd09:08
lubotu3FTP servers: ftpd, proftpd, pure-ftpd, twoftpd, vsftpd, MuddleFTPd, wzdftpd - Graphical front-ends: PureAdmin, GProftpd (for GNOME), KcmPureftpd (for !KDE) - See also !FTP09:08
dwatkinsknightwise: I really like lifehacker, some amazingly useful stuff on there09:13
knightwisei just dont like the new blog layout09:13
knightwiseso i just read the rss feeds09:14
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)09:15
knightwisehey bigcalm09:16
DJonesMorning oo, did you manage to get your computer sorted out09:20
AlanBello/ ivanka09:21
ivankaAlanBell: hello!09:22
popeymorning all09:22
AlanBellivanka: can you pop in to #ubuntu-accessibility09:22
oimonanyone see the late april fools joke on slashdot? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/04/07/0212222/France-Outlaws-Hashed-Passwords09:22
ivankaAlanBell: sure - will add it to my chats09:23
bigcalmAfternoon popey09:23
bigcalmI forget, how does one clean out unwanted kernals, the 'propper' way (not just deleting from /boot and editing the grub menu)09:28
oimonbigcalm: ubuntu tweak has an option for that, or there's a big ugly one-liner to do it too09:29
knightwiseive taken a look at commodore64.net09:29
knightwisei think its vaporware though09:29
bigcalmoimon: might be quicker for me to hover /boot myself09:35
gpdknightwise: i ended up at commodore64.org ... very differnt!09:36
ooDJones: Yeah i managed to get a cd drive for it, and installed from there :)09:36
safiyyahmorning guys09:40
gpdknightwise: I still have my Amiga 500 in the cellar... :)09:41
MartijnVdS500 girlfriends in the cellar?09:41
shaunoI still have my 1200 on my desk :D09:41
gpdI'm still using an Amstrad 1512 (lies)09:42
shaunomy 1200 is in 4 peices atm  (not lies :()09:42
gpdhowever, I think i'd rather play Portal 2 than dig out the old games...09:43
* gpd ducks09:43
bigcalmNot long now09:44
gpdbigcalm: 17th right?09:44
* bigcalm shrugs09:44
bigcalmI haven't looked at steam recently09:45
bigcalmThis month though09:45
bigcalmEither 17th or 27th09:45
bigcalm19th heh09:45
gpdI have a horrible feeling they might have ruined it09:45
bigcalmOoo, there's a new video09:46
gpdthe end songwith the cake was a master piece09:46
gpdgame.co.uk says 21/0409:46
* MartijnVdS ordered it from Amazon09:47
MartijnVdSfor PS309:47
bigcalmI'm looking at it on the steam store09:47
bigcalmRelease Date: 19 Apr 201109:47
safiyyahis compiz an American room?09:48
shaunoI'm not sure it's meant to be geocentric, but chances are a good few idlers in there would be currently asleep09:50
safiyyahanyone here know about resetting compiz back to defaults?09:50
DJonessafiyyah: http://www.ubuntugeek.com/ubuntu-tip-how-to-reset-compiz-settings-to-default-system-settings-from-command-line.html09:53
safiyyahDJones, thanx09:56
winterweaverWhat does the last part of the if statement do in this script? http://dpaste.com/529560/    .... I'm referring to the "| wc -l` -lt 1" bit10:20
dwatkinswinterweaver: if it is 'less than' 110:20
dwatkins-lt as opposed to -gt etc. as comparisons in bash10:21
dwatkinsthe backticks surrounding the ps command mean that it is executed and the result is then used10:21
winterweaveraaaah ok10:21
winterweaverand the pipe to wc -l ?10:21
dwatkinsthat redirects the output to the wc command, you'll find details of the option on the manpage, i.e. at the terminal execute: man wc10:22
winterweaverok thx10:22
dwatkinsor just google 'man wc' like I do when I'm lazy10:22
dwatkinsbe aware there are sometimes different versions of  commands with different options, however10:23
winterweaverok thank you I see now how the command works :)10:23
AlanBellor type man:wc into firefox10:24
hoovergood mornin10:31
oimonman:wc is nicer in konqueror :P10:33
smittixWhy the hell can i not get a route out of my natty installation10:34
hooverwhats wrong smittix?10:34
hooverHave you tried setting it manually?10:34
smittixYeah I always do it manually10:34
smittixIt just doesn't work, It say's its there but no connection10:35
smittixOn my maverick box it works fine10:35
hooverok Weird... have you checked netstat -nr?10:36
smittixI think I did last time i tried. Going to try again in a mo10:36
smittixplus fglrx doesnt work for me10:38
Laneyschoolboy error10:53
Laneyshorts + t-shirt to work10:53
Laneyand now it's cold :'(10:53
oimonyesterday i wore 4 layers and had the opposite problem10:55
oimonredhat just released a glibc update that crashes evolution when sending mail :S11:00
shaunoworking as intended!11:02
oimonreported 5 april, no fix yet11:02
davmor2morning all11:11
oimonali1234: you there? i had some info regarding testing of the gvfs problem11:15
smittixSubmitted that bug and got a reply saying it was a duplicate of another - The bug that it was supposed to be a duplicate of doesnt exist :/11:17
popeyit probably does11:17
davmor2morning all11:17
popeyit's probably a private bug11:17
popeybug 74966011:17
smittixahh ok11:17
lubotu3Error: Launchpad bug 749660 could not be found11:17
oimonsmittix: crash reports are usually marked private by default in case of private info. then they are made public afterwards11:18
Laneyi made it public for you11:19
smittixAhh thanks :11:19
PalaPad_Yay on way home for 1st time in a week :)11:20
smittixwhat's up popey ?11:20
PalaPad_Hey popes11:20
smittixNow to see if FGLRX works.11:20
popeysmittix: i was trying to explain the issue you have to a launchpad developer11:21
popeywith whom I have discussed private bugs in the past11:21
popeyand how _people_ making public bugs dupes of private bugs is annoying11:21
popeyapport retracing doing that is even more annoying11:21
popeybut now Laney has made it public, you can't see the annoyance as easily11:21
smittixI understand11:22
Laneyit's not hard to understand the annoyance conceptually11:22
popeysure, and the comments make it clear11:22
oimonthere's an easy solution..instead of "bug number doesn't exist", LP should say, this is a private bug11:23
oimonit's just a papercut though, LP is a squillion times better than any other bug tracker out there though11:24
LaneyI have a soft spot for the BTS, but maybe I like baroque email-driven interfaces11:25
popeyoimon: actually it did used to say "private bug" but the lp developers saw that as a security risk11:32
popeyso they deliberately made launchpad say "not found" for bugs which are private11:32
shaunoare bugs numbered sequentially?11:32
shaunoand getting deleted isn't a common case.  they get closed with a reason.  so if one is missing from sequence, it's probably private :)11:33
davmor2shauno: it's safe to assume that than anything else :)11:34
oimona missing bug is a private one 99 times out of 100 , but it's not allowed to say so definitively. hmmm11:35
Laneywell, that and Launchpad allowed one to be marked as a duplicate of the other11:36
Laneyreferential integrity says that it must exist11:36
oimonthat sounds like a solution dreamed up by the consultants my employer is currently using11:37
smittixWeird, Fresh install of natty and FGLRX works fine11:51
smittixand it's allowing me to use that alternative route11:52
oimonbanshee decided to play the machinarium soundtrack to me, it's a free download. it's actually rather good11:56
directhexi like the world of goo soundtrack11:56
directhexwhich is also free11:57
imexilHi, does anybody know how to REPLACE the "Chat client" entry in the notification area of Natty so that pidgin is always started instead of empathy (it happens that I click simply on the chat entry instead of the pidgin entry and then the awful empathy is started)11:57
oimonyeah, i have that too11:57
oimonanyone know how to take screenshots of iphone or android screens?12:00
bigcalmHaha, that was silly. My home grown url shortener service just shortened (in tweetdeck) a pre-shortened URL from the same service. I should fix that.12:01
shaunooimon: for iphone, hold the home button, and click the top (sleep) button12:02
shauno(home won't act until you release it)12:02
oimonshauno: thanks.12:02
shaunoyou should get the same sound & animation as when you take a photo, and it'll end up the same place a photo would12:03
oimonimexil: i'm a pidgin user on lucid an never got it working either :(12:06
directhexandroid i use ddvm12:06
directhexfrom the android sdk12:06
directhexsorry, ddms12:06
oimondirecthex: you install that on your pc or phone?12:06
oimonnever used the sdk12:07
directhexddms is the android debugger. you install it on your pc, and enable usb debugging on your phone12:07
BigRedSoimon: I've only done it through aPC12:07
* oimon starts reading about the SDK12:08
oimonmany thx12:09
popeywhy did google make it so hard to take a screenshot?12:09
davmor2popey: who needs to take a screenshot of their phone?12:10
popeyi do, regularly12:10
oimonlots of apps in the market , for rooted phones only12:10
MartijnVdSpopey: probably to make it harder for mobile viruses (or something) to take repeated screenshots while entering a password or something12:10
davmor2popey: I'm guessing we are the exception to the rule12:10
MartijnVdSpopey: "another vector blocked"12:10
MartijnVdSs/virus/any kind of malware/ really12:11
popeyit doesnt have to be exposed as an API12:11
davmor2popey: you think that is hard try taking a quick screenshot in Windows12:11
imexiloimon: Too bad but thanks12:11
shaunoif your screen is flashing and playing the camera sound when you're entering a password, alarm bell12:11
popeydavmor2: no, i dont believe we are exceptions12:11
shaunoif your password is on screen in a format that's capturable by screenshot, alarm bell :p12:11
popeyI frequently see twitpics of people's phones12:12
oimonit shows the letter you are typing as you type12:12
popeythe fact that its just two buttons to press on an iphone makes it easy12:12
popeyso people do it12:12
popeyand the screen flashes so you know when its happening12:12
shaunooimon: yeah, but it's really not a subtle effect.  it flashes like when you take a photo12:12
shaunoif it's flashing away like paparazi, you'll notice12:12
popeyinterestingly you can take a screenshot on an iphone when it's locked12:13
popeyyou could DDOS the phone by filling it up12:13
davmor2popey: So you're average user want to regularly take screenshots of their phone?  Funny I've never heard anyone say that in a phone shop, or the lug, or friends and family, or see it a lot online....12:13
popeythats not what i said12:13
popeyhey ho, I'm not going to argue the toss about it12:13
popeyfact is its easy on iphone and hard/impossible on stock android12:14
shaunoI saw more screenshots than I'd ever want to during twitter's *cough*bar controversy :/12:14
popeyheh, yeah12:14
directhexandroid's security model makes taking screenshots HARD.12:15
davmor2popey: Sorry couldn't resist.  My point was if we are the minority that want to take screenshots then we become the exception to the rule rather than the rule.  I am however surprised that some enterprising sole hasn't seen it as a flaw in the system and create a screenshot tool for android.12:15
popeythere are tools for android12:15
popeythey require root12:15
oimoni'm creating a tutorial for users to setup activesync12:16
popeyits not about rules and exceptions to rules12:16
popeyfact is people use devices in different ways12:16
shaunoI don't believe it's easy in ios.  it's not a public api.  apps don't have simultaneous access to the screen.  your app can't screenshot mine.12:16
davmor2popey: need to talk to X (or whatever framebuffer they use) I guess and root is the only user that can?12:17
MartijnVdSoimon: set it up so it randomly wipes the boss' phone :)12:17
popeydavmor2: i have no idea about the technical details12:17
oimoni am the boss :(12:17
popeyjust that it doesnt work12:17
MartijnVdSoimon: ok someone you don't like then12:17
popeylots of people take screenshots12:17
popeyi do not believe that counts as "exception"12:18
smittixI use Munch on Blackberry12:18
oimonpopey: they takes them because they can. android users can't so they don't. i agree that it's dumb though12:18
popeythey take them because they need to12:19
shaunoI think the most telling thing, is what this would read like the other way around12:19
popeyalmost all taken with the dev kit12:20
popeyand using the sdk is massively niche12:20
shaunoif android made it easy and apple made it dev-only, it'd be the oss vs imperial march  :p12:21
* oimon wonders if it is rasied as a bug/feature request somehwere12:21
directhexyes, but you need to wait 90-120 days to see it12:21
oimonyay managed my first screen capture :P12:22
oimoneasy when you know how COUGH SPLUTTER* *$&*"12:22
shaunovaguely related, but possibly more interesting, atari released their '100 greatest hits' on ios last night.  well worth a look if you have a freedom hating handset and a retro bias (12eur for all 100)12:26
oimoni like how you can perform a screen capture while touching a menu on the screen to highlight it12:26
shaunothis has made my morning much more noisy :)12:26
ubuntuuk-planet[Laura Czajkowski] PRE Ordering Natty Narwhal CDs - http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/04/07/pre-ordering-natty-narwhal-cds/12:27
Mezandylockran: ?12:27
Mezandylockran: ekey stuff?12:28
* oimon thinks the installer also needs a button for "bring out the gimp" - who doesn't have it installed, after all?12:37
dwatkinsbut the gimp's sleeping12:38
MooDooooo how many cd's is this loco ordering :D12:39
* BigRedS doesn't install the gimp12:40
oimonBigRedS: there's always one isn't there :P12:40
shaunooimon: two!12:41
* MooDoo installs photoshop :p12:41
BigRedSI do always forget that I need to install vim, too. Why isn't that shipped by default?12:41
oimonvim-tiny sucks12:41
shaunobecause $mymom doesn't use vim   *ducks*12:41
oimonso does that nano program12:41
BigRedSHah. Every time I use nano I get warnings about unexpected ':w's12:42
oimonshauno: if a son is performing remote support for mumbuntu he might want it tho12:42
shaunoactually, I dread to think what my mom uses.  last time I saw her, she was still on mandake  (and it was still called mandrake)12:42
BigRedSshauno: your mum's an emacs user? *shudders*12:42
oimonjust got rid of the last few madrake machines here too12:42
oimonsecurity updates stopped a long time ago12:43
directhexthe gimp is overkill for most of what i do12:43
directhexi should get into the habit of using pinta12:43
shaunoI don't do mom support :/12:43
shaunoI'll support her PC when she stops marrying windows admins.12:43
MooDooshauno: lol12:44
oimondirecthex: but necessary for blurring out bits and cropping/cloning tho?12:44
shaunothey're freaking impossible to clean up after12:44
directhexoimon, no, that's the point, gimp is overkill for those things12:44
gordsigh, my landlord thinks instant messengers are email - doesn't understand the difference - just thinks i'm emailing back really quickly12:44
oimondirecthex: i didn't think there was an inbetween paintshoppro in the repo's though?12:44
popey12:42:34 < oimon> shauno: if a son is performing remote support for mumbuntu he might want it tho12:45
directhexoimon, pinta is partly based on paint.net, which is well regarded in that area12:45
oimondirecthex: in the repos?12:45
shaunoDear gord.  I found your last letter quite amusing.  I hope that works out for you without too much insanity.  regards, shauno12:45
gordshauno, yeah pretty much spot on12:45
MooDoopaint.net isn't in the repos i don't think, i think it works via wine though12:45
directhexoimon, yeah12:45
oimondirecthex: i'm on lucid..must be a new appearance12:46
shaunopaint.net isn't .. .net?12:46
directhex     pinta | 0.4+dfsg-2 | maverick/universe | source, all12:46
directhex     pinta |      0.6-1 | natty/universe | source, all12:46
oimon!info pinta lucid12:47
lubotu3Package pinta does not exist in lucid12:47
oimon!info pinta12:47
lubotu3pinta (source: pinta): a simple Gtk+ drawing/painting program. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4+dfsg-2 (maverick), package size 457 kB, installed size 1540 kB12:47
gordhrm this reminds me, i should find some time to get shotwell doing some basic image editing, cropping, - already does colour adjusting but eh not enough12:47
MooDooshauno: http://www.getpaint.net/12:47
directhexpaint.net doesn't run in wine.12:47
oimongord: would love for shotwell to gain feature parity with picasa12:47
AlanBellMooDoo: I have placed the order, it is a standard pack 250 Ubuntu, 50 Kubuntu, 50 Server12:48
MooDoooimon: /me would like a ppa setup for fedora that ubuntu has :)12:48
oimonanyone used krita?12:48
MartijnVdSSounds like a KDE app12:48
davmor2oimon: what are you after?12:49
MooDooAlanBell: awesome, and you distribute to people who want some or are having a meetup/event?12:49
MooDoodavmor2: we prodded czajkowski lately?12:49
AlanBellMooDoo: basically12:49
oimondavmor2: i proposed a motion that most users have gimp installed. shauno and others countered that motion, and directhex told me that pinta is in repos nowadays...then we were just chatting12:49
davmor2MooDoo: czajkowski no fun at the moment dosed up on pain killers so doesn't notice12:50
MooDoodavmor2: ah ok, i'll leave czajkowski alone then [for the moment]12:50
shaunooimon: I'm not most users.  I don't have an ubuntu machine with Xorg on it :p12:52
shauno(which I consider a valid use-case, but not a good model for the default install)12:53
oimonwho are most users nowadays though anyway?12:53
oimonprobably too varied to guess12:53
shaunoI think, in a nutshell, I'd categorize them as 'facebook users'.12:54
oimonfacebook is the internet12:55
shaunoand before you yell at me for it, remember irc users aren't $mostusers :p12:55
oimonfor a lot of schoolkids on my train12:55
dogmatic69oimon: you trying to imply there is more to the internet than fb?12:56
shaunoI think my model of what an average user is now, is based purely around how I see my wife using the computer.12:57
oimonzawinksi's law- Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.12:57
shaunogmail's for talking to old people, safari's for buying things, and "for everything else, there's facebook"12:57
oimonfriends reunited really missed the boat on that one didn' tthey?12:58
shaunoI still can't convince her to install updates, because they get in the way :/12:59
davmor2oimon: Again depends what you want to use it for.  For Photo enhancement shotwell, f-spot, digikam are all up to the general tasks that a user would need for more advanced stuff there is the gimp, inkscape, krita and the like12:59
oimondavmor2: my wife and I find picasa the sweet spot for average photo touching up. shotwell rather lacking13:00
MooDoooimon: i just use pcassa for backin up to google13:00
davmor2oimon: shotwell is early in it development to be fair but I find it covers most of my needs quite happily13:01
shaunoHazRPG1: fail13:02
=== HazRPG1 is now known as Hazmaster
Hazmastershauno: that was my pc booking back in again13:02
Hazmasterdon't know why but while trying to sort all this out, my ipv6 at home failed13:03
shaunowhere I come from, we call that sods' law :)13:03
Hazmastersod has a lot to answer for in my life13:03
dogmatic69running ff4, every time i close it and open it all plugins are gone and i have to reinstall them13:04
dogmatic69anyone see that happen before?13:04
shaunofood times13:04
shaunopopey: I tried to DoS my phone with screenshots.  turns out they're rate limited, and I got bored/frustrated quickly.13:31
shaunonot saying it can't be done, just that I have no stamina :)13:32
popeyand at 600K/shot it takes a long while to fill a 32GB phone13:33
shaunomaybe try again tonight when I can pre-stuff it with songs first13:33
shaunocurious to see what effect it'll have, because I know the OS is on a different partition to appdata.  so it should be awkward but not breaking.  I hope.13:33
=== HazRPG1 is now known as HazRPG
gordyou can prolly send things to your phone faster than it can write to the storage, thats why its limiting13:36
shaunoI can't tell if it's intentional or not.  it just got irritating enough that I decided it was the wrong way to spend my lunch break13:37
HazRPGargh silly thing13:38
dogmatic69HazRPG: having fun with the internet?13:39
HazRPGdogmatic69: having fun with ipv6!13:39
dogmatic69i tried ping ::1 the other day13:39
dogmatic69did not like it13:40
shaunosurfing has always had this problem.  that bit where you try to hop up and land both feet at once, is really bad for your modem :/13:40
HazRPGprobably because your meant to type ping6 ::113:40
HazRPGlikewise you have traceroute6 etc13:40
HazRPGjust add 6 at the end of usual stuff13:40
dogmatic69i see13:41
shaunoI can't wait for that to go away :/13:41
shaunotraceroute6 but mtr -6.  ugh.13:41
dogmatic69is it just me or is ::1 faster than
shaunothey're so so here13:42
BigRedSHow frequently do you traceroute to localhost?13:42
shaunov4; rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.059/0.061/0.065/0.006 ms13:42
shaunov6; rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.049/0.059/0.066/0.009 ms13:42
dogmatic690.03 vs 0.0513:42
shaunoI think traceroute on a tunnel is a bit sketchy, because despite what it returns, you to your tunnel broker isn't 1 hop13:44
HazRPGman you've gotta be kidding, did I seriously just get knocked off again >_<13:45
gordi have the penny crayon theme music in my head and i can *not* get rid of it13:50
shaunoyou could alway fight fire with fire.  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Hot_Butter_-_Popcorn.ogg  :D13:52
dogmatic69HazRPG: are u alsp neuro? if not talk to him, he seems to have it :D13:52
Seeker`MattJ: i am realistic about my programming abulity :P13:52
shaunothat's not a bad observation.  hrmmm!13:53
HazRPGgord: heh what a random song to get in your head! ... also, dag-nabit! You've got me singing it now >_<13:53
HazRPGdogmatic69: neuro? No I'm not him... he seems to have what?13:53
dogmatic69shauno: flash back to dos4.something and digdug \o/13:54
dogmatic69HazRPG:  neuro (~neuro@2001:470:1f09:4b7:20c:29ff:fec2:f24f) has joined #ubuntu-uk13:54
shaunoHazRPG: his host is also 2001:470: and he can't sit still either13:54
HazRPGoh right, so it could be the tunnel's fault not ours?13:55
shaunoI closed my laptop before I came to work, so I can't poke my end :(13:55
HazRPGshauno: is yours not a 2001:470?13:55
Myrttivoted \o/13:55
dogmatic69HazRPG: relevant? http://mailman.isi.edu/pipermail/6bone/2002-August/006010.html13:56
gordwhat was that one about the loch ness monsters...13:56
gordah family ness13:57
shaunoI'd assume he.net had fixed their path since 200213:57
HazRPGdogmatic69: it might be, but that's way too much techno-bable for me to digest at the moment lol14:00
HazRPGalso yeah what shauno said ^^14:00
ivankaAlanBell: do you have a bug report for that keyboard14:01
AlanBellbug 75189114:02
lubotu3Launchpad bug 751891 in onboard (Ubuntu) "onboard does not follow Ubuntu branding and looks dated" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75189114:02
oimonstudent shop is closed until may - am missing my cornetto supply in this weather :(14:05
shaunoone of these days, when I really feel like hurting myself, I'm curious to see how I'd get ptppd handing out v6 addresses to vpn clients14:13
lubotu3Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to respond to factoid requests. Call that job satisfaction? Because I don't.14:15
AlanBellivanka: bug 75189114:15
lubotu3Launchpad bug 751891 in onboard (Ubuntu) "onboard does not follow Ubuntu branding and looks dated" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75189114:15
ivankaAlanBell: thanks14:16
oimongnome3 seems to be quite popular on planet gnome today15:17
gordwell of course15:19
oimonsomebody likes it then ;)15:19
DJonesoimon: Its the same in #ubuntu, I've lost count of the number of "How do I install gnome 3" questions, or whether natty will come with gnome 315:19
Laneyhow well does the PPA work?15:20
oimonthat's because the screenshots look nice and it's not obvious from them that gnome shell is , well, ...there's stuff missing :)15:20
TommehLaney: with Natty beta, it's .. Entertaining :)15:22
TommehBut I am currently using it.15:23
Laneyworse than you get from upstream?15:23
TommehHowever most my my 'aptitude dist-upgrade' attempts want to nuke half of my install15:23
TommehI dunno, never tried anything other than the PPA15:23
DJonesTommeh: I like the way there's a comment that unity and gnome 3 are incompatible and there's no way back after using the ppa for gnome 315:23
oimoni built from scratch a few weeks ago15:23
TommehDJones: I must've missed that bit :)15:24
oimonyou had to move some stuff out of the way.. /usr/lib/ stuff  IIRC15:24
TommehNot opposed to a re-install anyway15:24
TommehWeee 144 upgrades15:24
TommehAt least there aren't any conflicts today :)15:25
TommehI left last night with it trying to remove ubuntu-desktop or gnome-shell, heh15:25
oimonjust cranking up the liveCD of gnome3 to check it out again15:28
scoundrel50hi, got a problem, was chatting on e-mail group about new laptop and partitioning to add ubuntu. Trying that now, and got to the part where it talks about Allocate Drive space, and lost. Can somebody help please? I have no idea what I need to do from here.15:29
scoundrel50What do I choose for the partition?15:31
BigRedSscoundrel50: What do you mean 'lost'?15:33
scoundrel50well, its got the Allocate Drive Space page up, and there are options, and a drop down menu, I dont know what I need to choose to add Ubuntu to.15:34
BigRedSAh, I see15:34
BigRedSWhat are you aiming to end up with?15:34
scoundrel50want to put Ubuntu on half the partion15:34
scoundrel50I have three options15:35
scoundrel50there is /dev/sda1/2/3/15:35
scoundrel50then there is the drop down menu15:35
scoundrel50what do I choose15:35
BigRedSyou *probably* want the option that's words to teh effect of "resize what's there and use the new space"15:36
BigRedSit wont use half a partition, it will shrink one (or two) partitions, and create a new one in the resulting empty space15:36
andylockranhey guys15:37
andylockrandoes anyone know if webalizer can parse the %D in the apache log format (showing response time of the server in microseconds)15:37
scoundrel50oh, on that page, the only options I have are 1...Erase and use entire disc and 2....Specify partitions manually15:38
scoundrel50so I chose the second choice as I dont want to loose windows15:39
justin__help any know about httrack i am in belize and lost15:39
BigRedSscoundrel50: oh. I'm sure there used to be a nicer one. Does the 'specify partitions manually' page not offer somethign like that?15:40
scoundrel50just took a picture to show what options i have will try to upload it now15:41
BigRedSscoundrel50: Hm. It should look like this: #15:42
* BigRedS curses at bit.ly15:42
scoundrel50nope, dont get top option15:43
justin__should i be asking somwere elese if so where?15:43
popeyjustin__: ask your question15:44
popeyscoundrel50: open a terminal, type "sudo apt-get install pastebinit", then once that's installed, type "sudo fdisk -l | pastebinit"15:44
popeythis will give you a url you can give us15:44
popeywhich will let us see the partitions15:44
popeyI suspect it's been delivered with 4 partitions all of which are primary15:44
justin__i have triedd using httrack to copy chordie .com but it seems al i have is a bunch of .tmp files that wont show coerctly and the progect was .5 g15:45
scoundrel50ok, just cancelled installation, and got back to Ubuntu desktop15:45
popeyjustin__: whats the goal?15:45
justin__to  search all sons while offline15:46
popeywget -m http://chordie.com/15:46
popeyits not a nice thing to do though15:46
popeyscoundrel50: let us know if you get a problem with those instructions15:47
scoundrel50says unable to locate package pastebinit15:47
justin__i am in belize an our two isp arent reliable15:47
scoundrel50Running Ubuntu on live disc now15:47
popeyscoundrel50: odd15:48
popeyscoundrel50: is it online?15:48
popeyjustin__: sure, its still not nice :)15:48
justin__i haven tried wget you think it down loand the web site?15:48
popeyscoundrel50: sudo apt-get update15:48
scoundrel50give me a sec15:48
justin__i know but nieter is blokin allvoip's15:48
directhexpopey, online = web browser = copypaste15:48
scoundrel50that will add updates to the live disc?15:48
justin__but thats is waht tere doing15:48
popeyscoundrel50: no, just in memory15:49
justin__thank you for help15:49
popeyscoundrel50: sudo apt-get update, then sudo apt-get install pastebinit15:49
scoundrel50nope, still get that message15:50
AzelphurHas anyone seen the minimum hardware requirements for Windows Phone 7? it's hilarious :p15:50
popeyah well15:50
popeyscoundrel50: in a terminal type "sudo fdisk -l"15:50
popeythen go to paste.ubuntu.com in a browser and paste the result of the fdisk in there15:51
scoundrel50ok, doing that now15:51
scoundrel50ok, that worked15:53
popeyhow odd15:54
scoundrel50that should give you results of sudo fdisk -l15:54
popeyok, so you could use gparted on the live cd to reduce the size of sda315:54
scoundrel50what is odd?15:54
popeynever mind, I'd use gparted to resize down sda315:55
directhexthat looks like a fairly sane partition table, by some standards15:55
scoundrel50installing gparted now15:56
popeyyou dont need to15:56
popeyits on the live cd15:56
Hazmastergetting sick of my ipv6 pipe breaking15:56
oimonlol..answer from redhat concerning a bug.."Please try valgrind."15:56
scoundrel50how do I reduce size of sda315:56
Hazmasteri caught pidgin saying "Lost connection with server: Broken pipe"15:56
popeyscoundrel50: http://popey.blip.tv/file/2384259/15:57
popeywatch that video15:57
popeyit shows how to move a partition, but gives you an idea15:57
shaunoHazmaster: connect to chat.freenode for a while then15:57
popeyyou basically click sda3 and there's a resize option in the menu15:57
Hazmastershauno: I'm using my vps on irssi at the moment :)15:57
oimonarggh what's the truth about laptop/phone batteries except for the fact that they are lame? http://uk.lifehacker.com/5789794/avoid-frequent-discharges-to-extend-your-phone-or-laptops-battery-life16:01
scoundrel50do I do that before I install, I have gparted open, and sda3 has a red alarm thing next to it16:02
popeyscoundrel50: can you take a screenshot and upload to imgur?16:02
=== Hazmaster is now known as HazRPG
Azelphuroimon: I knew that, with smartphones it's best to charge little and often :)16:04
Azelphurand most laptops too I think16:04
oimonAzelphur: hmm16:04
scoundrel50just took screen shot what is imgur?16:04
oimoni dunno what to believe16:04
Azelphurscoundrel50: http://imgur.com/16:04
Azelphuroimon: that's where religion comes in16:04
* Azelphur runs16:04
oimonAzelphur: i can see you hiding behind popey16:05
oimonpraying over my batteries might help though16:05
scoundrel50there is the screenshot16:08
scoundrel50Its not allowing me to resize, at least I cant work it out. Nothing is moving.16:09
moreatiscoundrel50: if the NTFS partition wasn't cleanly unmounted, gparted won't touch it. Reboot into Windows, perform a scandisk and a defrag, then make sure you've performed a clean shutdown16:10
scoundrel50ok, will be back in a while after the defrag16:10
moreatior copy the data off to another disk, and wipe that partition16:10
DJonesscoundrel50: I would also suggest you backup anything that you don't want to lose before you come out of windows16:11
moreatiindeed, always backup before doing anything with partitions16:11
scoundrel50can I just remove the disc then reboot or closwee down then remove disc?16:12
oimonopening a terminal app (or other favourite app) from a clean install shouldn't take more than 2 clicks. on gnome shell it takes 3 but involves a lot of jumping through hoops!16:12
oimonthe good news is there is no global menu, the bad news is the title bar is MASSIVE16:13
DJonesMust admit that I was pleasantly surprised on my last install that Windows 7 has a way of resizing a partition built in to free up space, rather than having to use gparted to resize16:13
oimonDJones: even ext3?16:13
DJonesscoundrel50: I'd just close down and remove the disk16:13
DJonesoimon: Don't think so, just its own ntfs partitions16:14
dogmatic69DJones: i would not trust it though16:14
DJonesdogmatic69: It worked for me, I think that was the surprise16:14
oimondogmatic69: exactly, if it doesn't understand non windows stuff then you can't trust it16:14
oimondue to risk of overwriting16:14
oimon7.4 earthquake off japan https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/56004704790003712#16:16
DJonesoimon: I'm just as worried when I use gparted to resize an ntfs partition16:16
scoundrel50scan disc done, and now diskfrag started16:20
DJonesscoundrel50: Are you IRC'ing from the same machine you're running the scandisk & install on, or is that a seperate machine16:22
scoundrel50seperate machine16:23
DJonesscoundrel50: Right, is the other machine connected to the internet?16:24
scoundrel50this o0ne is just about working, I cant update on it, so once I get the new machine sorted, if I can, this one is being thrown out.16:24
gpdhow are ppl finding unity in natty beta?16:24
BigRedSI think they log on and it's just there16:25
gpdfocus follows mouse just doesn't work well.16:25
DJonesscoundrel50: No worries, with you not going offline when you rebooted the other machine, I just wondered whether it hadn't been connected to the internet and that was why you hadn't been able to install pastebinit earlier16:25
gpdalt-tab becomes ctrl-alt-tab... lots to learn it seems16:26
ubuntuuk-planet[Phil Bull] GNOME 3; User Help hackfest - http://philbull.livejournal.com/59641.html16:27
scoundrel50On the live disc I was able to update and connect to Firefox and use ubuntu pastebin, but for some reson it couldnt find pastebinit, dont know why.16:30
scoundrel50Going to take a long time for defrag, only 7% done so far16:30
scoundrel50I know its low end for some people, but this has to be the best laptop I have have used, its really fast. I am still getting used to W7, only ever got to XP, so m,issed out on Vista.16:32
scoundrel50It was quite cheap too.16:32
diploscoundrel50, what are you using for defrag ? Windows built in one ?16:33
diploIf so google defraggler, Free and it's quicker and does a better job imo16:34
directhexit doesn't make much difference. NTFS is inherently screwed for fragmentation16:34
directhexunless a defragger organizes by mtime, it's doomed to fail16:35
scoundrel50Oh, I might look into that. I only got this pc a couple of days ago. Hate using windows, only use it for things like iPhone updates.16:35
diploYup, just i found it was quicker and seemed to make a difference.16:35
AzelphurM7.4 after shock just off the coast of Japan :(16:37
scoundrel50ok, finiswhed defrag, so should I start the partition process again? Reboot with disc in?16:38
brobostigongood afternoon everyone.16:41
brobostigonhi bigcalm16:41
* brobostigon shouts and screams in frustration atthe top of his voice.16:41
oimonbrobostigon: gnome shell? :P16:42
oimonsorry just trolling/joking :)16:42
brobostigonoimon: several things, including real life and dpkg errors.16:43
brobostigonE: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)16:43
bigcalmbrobostigon: listen to http://absolute80s.com/ it'll make your life so much better :)16:43
davmor2brobostigon: apt-get instal -f16:44
oimongot my first crash in gnome3 after 5 mins of using the livecd16:44
brobostigondavmor2: done, same error.16:44
bigcalmWith jQuery, can you detect if an element currently has scrollbars?16:45
brobostigonbigcalm: i wil have a look, thanks,16:45
davmor2brobostigon: what on?16:45
brobostigondavmor2: apt-get install -f16:46
scoundrel50Ok, got to Allocate Drive space and now have that third option, Install alongside other operating systems, click on that?16:47
davmor2brobostigon: I meant natty or maverick,  is it from a dist-upgrade or a upgrade?  If it's natty then it might be between package uploads and so won't install till the missing bit is available16:47
brobostigondavmor2: natty, upgrade,16:48
davmor2brobostigon: might be between packages,  give it an hour and do sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -f  hopefully that will fix everything16:49
bigcalmCan one get less to make use of the colour scheme set in vim?16:50
davmor2bigcalm: just forward into vim :D16:50
brobostigondavmor2: it broke grub, an initrd is missing.16:51
scoundrel50yay, got further this time, seems to be installing16:51
scoundrel50at nleast its copying files, further than it got last time16:51
davmor2brobostigon: yeap there was an issue with it that was cause the cds to fail to build so they got respun16:51
brobostigondavmor2: i just ran update-grub again, so atleast grub will find kernels,16:52
scoundrel50ok, one question, do these installs differ depending on your computer? There are things being installed that I havent seen before.16:53
brobostigonscoundrel50: it does vary, yes, for example, i have gnome-shell/gnome3, and the dependencies of it changing, with updates, so that is possible.16:59
scoundrel50Oh, what is the difference? Is that for touch screen or something similar?17:00
brobostigonscoundrel50: it is an update to gnome2 and its apps, and WM etc.17:01
scoundrel50Its now installing system, I dont know what happened the first time, but it seems we are almost finished instlling this time.17:01
scoundrel50oh right.17:01
scoundrel50restarting computer17:02
DJonesscoundrel50: gnome 3 might be included in 11.10 when it gets released in the autumn, but from what I've read, its not compatible with Unity in 11.0417:02
scoundrel50Oh right, os its not ready for another two releases, rebooting, logging in.17:04
scoundrel50now I have to update17:04
brobostigonscoundrel50: i am running gnome-shell/gnome3 mostly successfully here in natty, with gnome3-team ppa.17:04
scoundrel50What is the difference,17:05
brobostigonscoundrel50: gnome3  is simplyput, updates to gnome2, in every way.17:07
gordeh i wouldn't say in every way. most of the applications are basically the same17:08
gordthe backend code has changed a lot however17:08
gordgsettings, gdbus are of note17:08
scoundrel50Oh right, I am just on 10.10 at the moment, I am looking forward to Natty, to see what changes are made with that.17:08
brobostigongord: fair point, yes.17:09
brobostigonscoundrel50: in natty, gnome2 is replaced with unity.17:09
scoundrel50I am hoping I can get my sharing working with this install. I managed to get the windows sharing working straight away, and copied everything off this computer via sharing yesterday.17:09
scoundrel50got 307 mb of updates to do17:12
scoundrel50does Ubuntu need defraging? if so how?17:17
dogmatic69its not fat17:18
scoundrel50thats good to know, thanks. :)17:18
lubotu3The default Ubuntu filesystem (ext4) is engineered to avoid fragmentation issues in most cases, see http://linkpot.net/behead/ for a simple example on how it achieves this.17:18
DJonesThats a good explanation of why ext4 doesn't have the same fragmentation problems, the graphics explain it quite nicely17:21
scoundrel50DJones: thank you. That is really useful to know.17:21
=== jamespage is now known as ringo
=== ringo is now known as jamespage
screen-xbrobostigon: I wonder if that pic has anything to do with reality17:31
=== Guest86158 is now known as MichealH
scoundrel50That has worked. Thanks everybody for your help. I really appreciate it. :) Going to check if its affected windows, and install everything I need now. So glad I got my ubuntu back.17:31
brobostigonscreen-x: http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2011/04/07/happy-birthday-the-internet/17:32
davmor2scoundrel50: windows will almost certainly run chkdsk17:32
scoundrel50yeh, it did that after the first time, as well.17:32
screen-xbrobostigon: yah, I meant is it anything close to the actual topoolgy of the internet17:33
scoundrel50just about to load W7 now17:33
scoundrel50its doing it now17:34
ali1234the comments on that article about fragmentation are really funny17:34
brobostigonscreen-x: not a clue, i just thought the picture looked nice.17:34
ali1234funny and sad17:34
scoundrel50keeping my fingers crossed nothing is broked17:34
ali1234guy points out that the article is BS, and everyone says "u dumb, MS lover" etc17:34
ali1234then they accuse *him* of calling names17:35
ali1234then he posts the evidence that *proves* the article is BS17:35
ali1234and then they say "well why do you care it's just some article"17:35
scoundrel50W& started17:38
scoundrel50Thank you so much. :)17:38
ali1234also the follow up article is even more BS17:40
ali1234it's basically making the argument that a fragmented filesystem can be faster because you might possible want to read the fragments in the specific order they are on disc17:41
shaunoonline defrag is in the feature list for ext4.  so apparently the people writing the filesystems don't believe the myths.17:45
ali1234the real reason linux is less affected by fragmentation is because it generally uses lots of small files instead of one huge file17:47
* screen-x stabs cpan17:47
shaunoonce online defrag is mainstream, we'll just conveniently forget that you previously had to convert ext3 to ext2 & use e2defrag offline  (and just hope that any extended attributes survived thru sheer luck)  :o)17:48
shaunothe OS doesn't use a lot of huge files.  users do tho17:48
ali1234but the problem for windows is basically because of the registry, a huge constantly growing (sometimes shrinking) file that all programs use all the time whenever you do anything17:49
* davmor2 hands screen-x his big breaking hammer try that much more satisfaction that a quick stab17:50
screen-xdavmor2: thanks :)17:50
ali1234putting the registry on it's own partition might actually be an interesting way to optimize windows... you might get more than 3 months without needing a reinstall if you do that17:50
screen-xdavmor2: have you got any lecky-tape suitable for patching up perl modules?17:50
davmor2screen-x: try acme glue :D17:51
brobostigonhttp://www.haiku-os.org/blog/stippi/2011-04-07_deskbar_rewrite interesting read.18:04
scoundrel50something is missing, the network connections icon is missing from the top panel, how do I get it back?18:05
brobostigonscoundrel50: hit alt+f2 and nm-applet18:06
scoundrel50brobostigon: ok, that is wierd, there is a space where it is supposed to be, but no icon, but if you click on the space, the drop down menu appears.18:09
scoundrel50I tried what you said, but it didnt show the icon18:09
exobuzzi just went back to ubuntu (natty) after some time with linuxmint. not sure about some of the new features. top menu is a vertical space saver, but annoying for apps like "pidgin" which i like at the bottom right (long way to move the mouse)18:09
exobuzzim not getting a long that well with unity either (currently back on classic ubuntu)18:10
brobostigonscoundrel50: sorry then, they must have changed the way it runs with unity, try nm-applet from a terminal?18:10
exobuzzstill prefer the linux mint menu etc (when it doesnt freeze/crash), but wanted to go back to a distribution with a shorter "upstream route".18:11
exobuzzanyone else got opinions on natty/unity and the other new stuff ?18:11
* brobostigon prefers gnome-shell,18:12
exobuzzi watched a video of gnome-shell on youtube and although i wasnt trying it, it didn't feel like something i would like18:12
exobuzzi guess i should test it before making judgement though18:13
scoundrel50brobostigon: that is even wierder, get a warning saying .......nm-applet warning constructor(): couldnt initialise D-Bus manager.......An instance of nm-applet already running.18:13
brobostigonsimply preference, better workspace management, better handling of IM via empathy. etc.18:13
scoundrel50ok, rebooted, and its now showing18:14
brobostigonscoundrel50: weird, i would track down nm-applet instances with ps, and kill them and try again, but that is quite extreme,18:14
brobostigonscoundrel50: dbus musthave been it, then.18:14
exobuzzi still find ubuntu default apps an odd choice, although pleased that f-spot is gone. not that it matterrs since you can of course install your own, but am i missing something - why empathy over pidgin for example ?18:14
brobostigonthank Myrtti :)18:15
exobuzzcare to elaborate ?18:15
directhexexobuzz, because libpurple is a dead end18:15
exobuzzbecause? :)18:15
brobostigonexobuzz: like, i can get and reply to empathy messages, without even going empathy in gnome-shell, straight from the notifications. very convieniant.18:16
brobostigoneven going to*18:16
directhexexobuzz, essentially, empathy is a thin wrapper over telepathy, which is a generalized IM framework. you can have lots of apps which speak to telepathy, giving what brobostigon describes. the same is not true of pidgin. pidgin is just an app18:16
brobostigondirecthex: yes, said notifications dont work with pidgin, i have tried.18:17
directhexand telepathy is pluggable, whereas pidgin isn't. all pidgin's power comes from the main pidgin lib, purple. any new telepathy service can appear, and it'' just work in consumer apps18:17
directhexe.g. SIP18:18
exobuzzill give it a go, but when ubuntu first switched i tried it. it was buggy, and seemed to have half of the features of pidgin. perhaps they switched too early for me to appreciate it and it put me off18:18
MyrttiI'm sure there's a longer explanation in blogosphere, but it integrates well into the system. I use pidgin but I use xubuntu18:18
directhexexobuzz, switching early is important for bug fixing. remember, non-lts releases "don't matter" in this respect18:18
Myrttiwell, I use both really18:18
exobuzzdirecthex, in my case though, that didnt work. i just uninstalled it ;-)18:18
Myrttipidgin for work and empathy for leisure18:18
exobuzzim sure i am not alone18:19
directhexi use empathy, except on windows18:19
exobuzzalso im still waiting for the right hand side of windows to be used for something. was one of mark's big arguments for moving the window gadgets.. or was it a fib to justify the decision.18:20
brobostigonempathy v.3 is miles better, most stability issues i had hae been worked out, and certain things like, blocked contacts, has a muchbetter gui.18:20
scoundrel50Can you get empathy to work with camera, stay when you want to talk to somebody on MSN, I have never been able to get the camera working on Empathy.18:21
brobostigondirecthex: given you do work for the firm that partly designs empathy/telepathy, :)18:21
directhexbrobostigon, yes, this is true18:21
brobostigonscoundrel50: sound and video work over xmpp in telepathy/empathy, ot tried msn yet. best ask directhex, :)18:21
brobostigondirecthex: :)18:22
MattJXMPP \o/18:22
exobuzzto be honest, id take raw functionality over some "correct framework" that isnt ready/complete18:22
directhexi like telepathy functionality. desktop sharing is neato18:22
directhexso is sharing music in banshee18:22
brobostigonexobuzz: for the things i use it for, it is ready/complete as you put it.18:23
exobuzzive yet to make a judgement on banshee. i tried it before and preferred exaile18:23
exobuzzbrobostigon, i will certainly give it another run, as it has been a while18:23
scoundrel50no wonder I couldnt get it to work then, I dont know anything about xmpp18:23
brobostigonexobuzz: i would suggest you try the gnome3 version it is much better than the gnome 2 version.18:24
scoundrel50One problem I have with this new install, sharing doesnt work. :(18:24
exobuzzdoes empathy have gadu gadu support? :)18:24
scoundrel50I'm too tired now, been doing this for hours, will try deal with that later. :(18:24
brobostigonexobuzz: i believe so, yes.18:24
exobuzzi just ran it and it didnt mention it on the import account screen18:25
exobuzzbut it cant import my account then ?18:25
directhexbut empathy doesn't need it, telepathy does18:25
exobuzzok. you know what i mean :)18:25
directhexis telepathy-sunshine installed? that's the CM for gadugadu18:25
exobuzzi dont know. if i have to go out and search to get it to work, then its just lost a point against pidgin18:26
brobostigonhttp://www.google.com/events/io/2011/io2011.html interesting, they are going to stream googleIO live,18:27
directhexwait, i don't have sunshine either18:28
directhexi must be using haze18:28
exobuzzanyway, good to have the choice of course18:29
directhextelepathy-core pulls in telepathy-haze. so you definitely have gadugadu support.18:29
directhexhaze is a wrapper around pidgin's libpurple, so anything pidgin supports, haze supports18:30
exobuzzok. it didnt offer to import the gadugadu account from pidgin, so i thought to mention it18:30
exobuzzI never found a twin pane file manager I liked really. krusader being the closest18:33
exobuzzsorry just a thought dump18:34
directhexmidnight commander!18:34
exobuzzugh. no please. horrible :)18:34
exobuzzoh wait. sorry. brain glitch. mc is ok. but im talking gui one18:34
MattJNautilus + a tiling wm18:35
exobuzzmaybe im fussy, but that won't do me also heh18:35
MattJThough I should try Thunar again, I used to like it18:35
* brobostigon doesnt mention file managers in other OS's better,as he was ignored last night.18:36
exobuzzi preferred the simplicity of thunar of nautilus as a simple file manager, but18:36
dutchieMattJ: nautilus can tile anyway18:36
dutchietry pressing F318:36
MattJWhat the...18:37
exobuzzthe global top menu on natty is going to give me rsi.18:37
MattJdutchie: Thank you :)18:37
dutchieMattJ: np :)18:38
gordonjcpI don't like that top menu thing18:38
gordonjcpand the alt-f2 run dialogue is totally broken18:39
exobuzzthe thing with nautilus with an extra pane, is most of the time i would use it with a single pane, with icons, and so to switch back and forth etc, is not ideal. i guess its possible to have multiple profiles perhaps? but still. its not like dopus on the amiga ;-)18:40
exobuzzor filemaster which was nice on my a500 heh18:40
* exobuzz installs "worker" for an oldschool dopus look18:40
brobostigonor, like opentracker on haiku.18:41
issyl0Evening all.18:41
brobostigongood evening issyl018:41
issyl0How are things?18:42
MattJVery good18:42
* issyl0 needs/wants things to do, but has too much to do in real life that she can't do because she doesn't have the stuff to do it yet. :-/18:42
brobostigonissyl0: i am not allowed to use the lagnuage to describe it here, i am sure you can imagine, and you?18:42
issyl0brobostigon: Ah, right.  Yeah, I'm not bad thanks.18:42
brobostigonissyl0: :)18:42
exobuzzgordonjcp, whats broken with alt+f2 ?18:42
gordonjcpexobuzz: it just doesn't work18:43
gordonjcpexobuzz: press alt-f2, type the name of a command, hit return, doesn't launch the app18:43
exobuzzgordonjcp, i managed to launch gnome-terminal via it just now? maybe it's fixed or some path issue ?18:43
gordonjcpexobuzz: if you wait something like five seconds while all the totally pointless search crap catches up, it *might* launch18:43
gordonjcpif you can type at faster than one character per two seconds, it won't work18:44
brobostigonopentracker happens to be my favorite file manager.18:44
exobuzzif it does some autosearch perhaps that's not enabled here, as it didnt try and help me18:45
gordonjcpmaybe there's a way to disable it18:45
brobostigonit isnt exclusivly a filemanager though.18:45
exobuzzgordonjcp, aah wait. is alt+f2 different on unity from classic ?18:45
gordonjcpexobuzz: I don't know, I'm using Unity18:45
exobuzzgordonjcp, i switched to classic mode, the search stuff was way slow on unity18:45
exobuzzi couldnt handle it18:45
exobuzzand im on a 1080p 24" monitor. i dont need massive icons that would suit a touchscreen/netbook18:46
directhexi've been considering reverting wifey's netbook to lucid18:46
exobuzzwho thought it was a good idea for the same gui on both types of device? :)18:46
gordonjcpexobuzz: I don't want any icons at all18:46
directhexor maybe older. every upgrade makes her netbook worse18:46
gordonjcpthey're just meaningless squares to me18:46
gordonjcpdirecthex: Windows XP18:46
brobostigondirecthex: which model, may i ask.18:46
directhexgordonjcp, is a TERRIBLE os for a netbook18:46
exobuzzgordonjcp, id go back to classic mode then. having said that they plan to remove that in the next release right? so no more choice.18:46
directhexbrobostigon, an acer aspire one18:46
gordonjcpexobuzz: well, I don't normally use Ubuntu18:47
gordonjcpexobuzz: but I need to package some stuff and test it for Ubuntu18:47
exobuzzi see. what do you normally run ?18:47
brobostigondirecthex: i tried haiku on one of those the other day, and it worked heavenly, however, that isnt a viable possibility.18:47
gordonjcpso I may as well use an up-to-date version18:47
gordonjcpexobuzz: Haiku and Arch18:47
exobuzzim seriously considering going back to kde in recent weeks..18:47
brobostigongordonjcp: :)18:47
* gordonjcp never liked KDE18:48
* brobostigon agreed with gordonjcp 18:48
exobuzzi miss windowmaker, sniff ;-)18:48
gordonjcpetoile looked promising but the project seems to be dead18:49
exobuzzi liked it at kde3, but kde4 put me off,. i liked the kate editor too, although i found geany to be quite ok18:49
brobostigonexobuzz: i agree with you on geany, :)18:49
exobuzztogeany has more features and loads quicker than gedit18:50
exobuzzperhaps it should replace it18:50
brobostigonexobuzz: i dont think it could replace it, as simple  basic text editor, which is why gedit is there.18:50
exobuzzi normally remove gedit, and just use geany18:50
exobuzzthere is a lot of overlap though. and of course geany can be used as a simple editor too18:51
exobuzzanyway, as usual, there are a bunch of decent editors to choose from.18:52
exobuzzmac users all rave on about textmate. never tried it though18:52
exobuzzbrobostigon, do you use geany and also a larger ide? more things ive not tried recently is for example eclipse and kdevelop18:55
brobostigonexobuzz: geany, nano, and the arduino IDE.18:57
gordonjcpdon't use the arduino IDE, it sucks18:57
exobuzznever heard of that18:57
gordonjcpuse a real editor, and arsocns18:57
exobuzzhardware geekery orientated ?18:58
gordonjcpexobuzz: yeah19:01
brobostigonbrb, foodings.19:02
MattJnano is my editor, and the command-line is my IDE19:10
Azelphuryay, I'm starting to make progress in the world of android development :D19:12
AzelphurI've more or less got a working "connect on startup" patch for yaaic :)19:12
Azelphur^ from hello world to this in one day, and the only documentation I read was the eclipse setup/hello world tutorial xD19:12
brobostigonAzelphur: congratsm :)19:13
Azelphurty :p19:13
willy1977Azelphur: not bad mate... if you are after a paid for book :o I can recommende wrox Professional Android 2 Application Development :)19:15
Azelphurhaha, me and books never get on, I generally just mess with other peoples code till it makes sense and slowly gain an idea of how the language works19:15
Azelphurthat's how I learned python xD19:15
willy1977often-times that's for the best if you know the examples you're following are sound ;)19:16
brobostigonAzelphur: that is how i learnt c and c++-19:16
Azelphurfun :)19:16
Azelphurwilly1977: should be good, yaaic is a nice IRC client based on pircbot :)19:16
willy1977well not to everyone but yeah, I find that stuff fun too :)19:16
willy1977ahh cool19:17
brobostigonAzelphur: one complaint, it doesnt seem to have nick completion or assitance of any kind.19:17
Azelphurbrobostigon: should do, I believe the tab complete button is search19:17
Azelphurnope, I guess not o.O19:17
brobostigonAzelphur: i didnt find a way, hmm, i will have to try that.19:17
brobostigonoh, ok.19:18
Azelphurthat can be on my todo list :)19:18
brobostigonAzelphur: it quite assential really, :)19:18
willy1977I'm thinking I may try and write a phpbb reader for android... I know a few that would want it but past my tri club not sure if there'd be much call for it :/19:19
brobostigonAzelphur: so i am on andchat, but have yaaic installed aswell.19:20
Azelphurbrobostigon: yea, dev says it is supposed to be the search button, I guess it got broken :P19:21
Azelphurdoesn't work for me in latest release or git19:21
brobostigonAzelphur: i didnt find it either, ok.19:21
Azelphurso it is there, it's just broken I guess :D19:21
willy1977guess it means it'll be fixed at some point though ;)19:31
brobostigonyes, fingers crossed.19:32
Azelphurit will be, if he doesn't fix it I probably will xD19:35
willy1977so is it all in java or pythong or sommat else?19:36
willy1977I'm having a stab at picking that up just now too...19:36
willy1977meaning as well as linux...19:37
brobostigoni have been playing with google app inventor, as idont seem to be able to understand java,19:37
willy1977I guess I'm lucky in that regard as far as I can tell it's principles are similar to c# but with a different set of namespaces etc. doesn't make it any easier I guess :D19:39
brobostigoni would be a happier if they had used c or c++.19:39
willy1977yeah I know what you mean - I reckon there's always one language set that a dev is more at home with...19:40
brobostigonyes, i would  agree,19:41
brobostigoni am no dev though, really.19:41
willy1977what makes you say that? is it because you don't have a star wars/star trek t-shirt that is faded?19:42
brobostigonwilly1977: because i mostly only play, i dont do anything really serious.19:43
willy1977brobostigon: I get you - it's cool when it's play it can get a grind when it's day to day ;)19:45
willy1977pretty much why I've started hanging around here is to remind myself why I first went in to IT and dev work.19:45
brobostigonwilly1977: most i do, is some work for the controllers on my dads car project, and that is it.19:45
willy1977sorry had to sort some family stuff out - sounds interesting though.19:55
shaunoheh, I haven't used fetchmail for eons.  it still works :D19:56
shaunokinda.  I'm not quite sure where it put the first attempt.19:56
willy1977shauno: not bad then... one learning attempt and success :p20:01
willy1977doh... not sure what happened then :)20:03
gordit seems insane that we live in a world where i can visit some webpage, the website then insist that i must be logged in and take me to a form where firefox has already filled out the information and ticked the "remember me" checkbox. i don't care if its firefox's fault or the websites fault, it sucks :(20:07
shaunoso all the page needs is a relatively simple bit of javascript to see if the client is one that's expected to do that, enough fields aren't empty that it's happy, and it can submit the form for you.20:08
shaunoscore!  .. for the site20:08
Azelphurgah, so close to having my connect on start working xD20:08
AzelphurI can connect servers on startup, I've created the option for it, just can't get it to save/load the setting...grr :p20:08
shaunodoes firefox highlight fields it's filled for you in any way?20:09
willy1977Azelphur: what's up with the settings save then?20:10
Azelphurdunno XD20:10
Azelphurthink I found it.20:10
shaunoinfact, it wouldn't have to.  the script could just check fields are filled within a time limit, assume that fast enough wasn't human interaction, and go ahead with the submit20:11
gordonjcpis there a way to get rid of the outsize speech bubbles in empathy chat windows?20:12
Azelphuraha, now I've got it :p20:12
ali1234gordonjcp: change the theme, there's one that doesn't use bubbles20:14
gordonjcpali1234: aha20:15
gordonjcpthanks, that's much better20:15
ali1234it's kind of ugly though, i find it runs everything together20:15
Azelphursuccess, one fully functional feature \o/20:16
ali1234gord: sourceforge?20:16
gordonjcpali1234: yeah, but my monitor is quite old and really the resolution's not high enough for Unity20:24
* gordonjcp remembers when 1680x1050 was actually quite big20:24
brobostigongordonjcp: it still is, :)20:25
ali1234i thought the whole point of unity was to improve the way screen space is used?20:25
ali1234anyway i recommend using classic20:25
ali1234and pidgin instead of empathy20:25
* brobostigon uses gnome3 and empathy,20:25
mgdmevenin' aquarius21:27
=== dgjones is now known as DJones
amber481Hi All,My company has just recently migrated from a Windows to a Linux farm.  At the moment we don’t have document storage system so we are using Google docs at the present time. We don’t see this as the safest method of document storage so I have been assigned the task of finding a better solution.I have been advised to set an FTP server but this method seems dated and the search functionality isn’t very good and I’ve also 21:56
gordonjcpamber481: what were you using on Windows?21:57
moreatiprobably g:\ :)21:58
gordonjcphm ;-)21:58
willy1977was it sharepoint?21:58
MartijnVdSAlanBell or TheOpenSourcerer might know21:58
gordonjcpI've never used sharepoint so I don't know what it's like21:59
amber481anything similar to GIT?21:59
willy1977gordonjcp: web frontend21:59
amber481which could handle PDF's?21:59
gordonjcpwilly1977: web frontend to what?21:59
gordonjcpamber481: well, git would handle PDFs, just maybe not very well21:59
amber481ive tried and it doesnt22:00
willy1977sharepoint - it backs on to a set of iis/reporting services22:00
willy1977*iis sites22:00
AlanBellif documents are the question then Alfresco is the answer22:00
AlanBell</sales pitch>22:00
moreatiamber481: What you mean by GIT, maybe what most of us mean. To us git is a source code system used by the Linux kernel developers22:00
gordonjcpI just spotted Alfresco on Google22:00
amber481can Alfresco handle PDF's?22:01
AlanBellit can generate PDFs on the fly from stuff too22:01
AlanBellso you can have version tracked documents in ods format and published PDFs on the web somewhere22:02
amber481sounds good22:02
gordonjcpAlanBell: your project?22:02
amber481do you have any links?22:02
amber481thank god for the UK22:02
AlanBellnope, not my project, but we work with it for our customers22:02
popeyThank the queen!22:02
* AlanBell stands to attention22:02
amber481americans are assholes22:02
* popey stands up22:02
* popey averts his gaze22:03
amber481thanks guys22:03
* willy1977 starts the tape on track 3... pomp n circumstance...22:03
* gordonjcp points out that he has no queen22:03
gordonjcpbloody germans coming over here and taking our jobs22:03
willy1977i hate the germans... bombed our chippy (circa 1980's liverpudlian accent required)22:04
moreatigordonjcp: did you here when apple we're recruiting exchange students in London. "Bloody Jobs, coming over here, stealing our foreigners"22:04
gordonjcpmoreati: :-)22:04
gordonjcpmoreati: I hear he may be going in for a heart transplant22:05
gordonjcpmoreati: so if they leave the old one in does that mean that the new Steve Jobs is dual-coeur?22:05
amber481http://www.alfresco.com/  is no good22:05
moreatiamber481: works here22:06
amber481i need an opensource app22:06
gordonjcpamber481: why not?22:06
willy1977I think it looks quite good to be honest... :/ why not?22:06
moreatiamber481: IIRC Alfresco comes in open source and paid flavours22:06
willy1977it is open source as far as... oh yeah what they said :)22:06
gordonjcpalthough the idea of running java on a server scares me a bit22:07
amber481great... changed my mind22:07
moreatiamber481: http://www.alfresco.com/try/ Look for Alfresco Community22:07
amber481whats wrong with java on a server?22:07
* popey works for a company that runs most of its business on very large java based apps22:08
popeyvery large22:08
moreatipopey: is it wise to mention SAP, when you're trying to defend Java on servers ;)22:08
popeyI'm not defending anything22:09
AlanBellamber481: it *is* free software22:09
popeyjust mentioning in passing22:09
amber481we are non profit22:09
AlanBellthe community edition is a bit more bleeding edge than the commercially supported enterprise version22:09
amber481so i need somethinf thats opensource22:09
AlanBellbut it is the same code22:09
AlanBellit is LGPL 3 I think22:09
* AlanBell checks22:10
moreatiGPL 2 with linking exceptions according to Wikipedia22:10
AlanBellmoreati: wikipedia would appear to be wrong then22:11
amber481thanks again22:12
AlanBellthere is probably a bit more complexity in it than that as it is quite a lot of bits of stuff flying together in close formation22:13
AlanBellI think the business process modeling bit JBPM stuff is a bit less liberally licensed but they were swapping that out for something else22:14
AlanBelland in the all-in-one installer they include a tomcat and mysql and openoffice.org22:14
AlanBellwhich I think is a bad idea, but don't blame me22:15
AlanBelljava does run masses of stuff on masses of servers, it has a strong reputation for scalability (a better reputation than it deserves IMHO)22:16
directhexi lie about respecting java as a choice22:16
moreatiAlanBell: fixed22:18
AlanBellmoreati: not quite :)22:19
AlanBelllinking exception applies to GPL only22:19
AlanBelland I am fairly sure it is LGPL3 and not 222:19
moreatiAlanBell: oh pooh, couldn't find an actual LICENSE file in the repo22:19
AlanBellGNU LESSER GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 3, 29 June 200722:20
directhexi'm tired of lying about saying there's an appropriate time to use java. i don't think that. i'm disingenuous when i say i do.22:20
* AlanBell finds one in /opt/alfresco-3.4.c/licenses/license.txt22:20
willy1977directhex: so there's no appropriate time to use java?22:21
amber481so are you guys excited about the royal wedding? im from NY and for some reason its all over our news stations22:21
willy1977our bills wedding? oh aye... extra day off innit... ;)22:21
directhexwilly1977, IMHO? it's a dead language, and should be used whenever you consider dead languages22:21
directhexamber481, nobody in my circle of friends could give a flying freak about it.22:21
moreatidirecthex: ditto22:22
AlanBelldirecthex: I fully agree with you22:22
amber481you guy make me laugh22:22
amber481why not?22:22
amber481he's your future king22:22
willy1977joe king...?22:23
popeyamber481: there's probably more interest in our royal family outside the UK than in it22:23
AlanBellamber481: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-March/029306.html22:23
moreatiamber481: that matters about as much as who sings the national anthem in the superbowl22:23
directhexamber481, there are three types of people who care about the royal wedding22:24
AlanBelljust some kids who are getting married on the natty bank holiday22:24
dutchiedirecthex: 1) people in the royal family? :)22:24
directhexamber481, 1) people in the tourist trade, who hope to make moar cash from foreigners come to gawk at our silly customs22:24
amber481theres  a movie coming out about the royal wedding... will you go and see it  <directhex>22:24
directhexamber481, 2) people who don't care about the occasion, but are happy about the extra national holiday day22:25
bigcalmWould be nice if it were every year22:25
popey:( another day I dont get paid22:25
amber481Windsor castle is nice... ive been there!22:25
willy1977oh aye \o/ - 11 days off for the price of 3... thank you jesus and bill!22:25
directhexamber481, 3) weird people who still think an imported german set of aristocrats are somehow superior specimens of the species, and genuinely like the idea of hereditary leadership22:25
bigcalmpopey: but you get so spend extra time with your wonderful family :)22:25
amber481you are lucky! i only get 7 paid holidays a year22:26
amber481you guys get something silly22:26
amber4812 weeks22:26
directhexamber481, well, that's the US. even at mcdonalds you'd get more than twice that in europe22:26
bigcalm20 days off plus bank holidays is the minimum22:26
directhexamber481, i get 20 days plus bank holidays, which is significantly less than my last job22:27
bigcalmSame here22:27
amber481and the french?22:27
directhexamber481, more than that.22:27
bigcalmAre just basicly ;)22:27
amber481they get more right?22:27
dutchieonly because they are striking all the time :)22:27
bigcalm(in-joke lost on most)22:27
popeyI got it22:27
safiyyahhi guys22:28
bigcalmpopey: that's beacuase you're tops!22:28
safiyyahi need help with something real quick22:28
directhexamber481, they get more in vietnam! 10 days!22:28
bigcalmsafiyyah: fire away22:28
amber481by the way 7 days is including sick days22:29
directhexwas going to say you get the same as someone from hong jong22:29
directhexbut with that extra bit... you don't22:29
bigcalmSick days come out of your holiday entitlement?22:29
willy1977including sick days?22:30
Pendulumeveryone gets more than the US22:30
popeyamber481: come and live in the UK :)22:30
Pendulumbigcalm: they're not required to provide sick days in the US22:30
* bigcalm stays put22:30
popeyapparently we're socialist lefies, but hey, we get more holiday than you :D22:30
bigcalmPendulum: backwards country ;)22:30
Pendulumsome places offer them outside of holiday, some places don't22:30
Pendulumbigcalm: you're telling me! I've been trying to get out for years!22:30
popeysilly colonies, leaving the empire22:30
popeyalso, the fork goes in your _left_ hand22:31
willy1977you know someone once asked at an interview I was doing how many sick days they got... scrunched up his face when I said none...22:31
Pendulumpopey: that's how I eat when I'm not in the US22:31
Pendulumbut if you're using your fork in your left and the person next to you is using it in their right, it's messy22:31
popeylearn them!22:32
popeylearn them properly22:32
popeyby projecting your food on their shirt22:32
popey"oh, sorry!"22:32
willy1977in the fork stakes I'm a heathen... :( but I drink tea properly...22:32
bigcalmpopey: I think some 'lefties' might have something to say about that :P22:32
Pendulumtea \o/22:32
popeywilly1977: from a bucket?22:32
willy1977quite right22:33
bigcalmwilly1977: with your little finger sticking out?22:33
popeyI do so enjoy these cultural exchanges22:33
willy1977from a bouqet with my little fingah sticking out ya...22:33
bigcalmPendulum: kb update - it's great :D22:33
Pendulumbigcalm: good :)22:33
* brobostigon wonders what he has just walked into.22:33
Pendulumbrobostigon: why the US sucks :)22:34
willy1977oh hello auld chap... how are you...22:34
brobostigonPendulum: hmmm, okies.22:34
safiyyahI installed brother scanner drivers using dpkg --forceall, anyway it's the wrong driver22:35
safiyyahI would like to remove just the scanner drivers NOT all brother drivers22:35
safiyyahI will post the output of grep22:35
bigcalmhttp://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html # nice bit of tech this22:36
safiyyahI only want to remove brscan and brscankey22:36
directhexsafiyyah, dpkg --purge brscan-skey  ?22:38
safiyyahthanx directhex22:43
brobostigonwith "sudo dpkg --force-all -r " i fixed my package upgrade error, from earlier, hopefuly i havent trashed anything.22:45
=== safiyyah is now known as Safiyyah
Safiyyahoh great the scanner is working22:51
SafiyyahI am really impressed with brother22:52
Safiyyahthey have provided for linux users well22:52
daftykinsas long as you know command line? ^_^22:57
Safiyyahdaftykins, i hardly know command line22:58
Safiyyahthe instructions are good22:58
Safiyyahthey have very detailed instructions on the site22:58
daftykinsi bought a webcam recently that should work under Linux happily23:01
HazRPGdwatkins: most do, don't they?23:02
HazRPGi mean i was shocked my microsoft LifeCam HD worked ootb23:02
directhexSafiyyah, it would be nice if the drivers were free software23:05
daftykinsHazRPG: i nearly got a Microsoft one, but i went with the Logitech C910 in the end23:06
daftykins1080p on windows, (albeit at a low framerate)23:06
daftykinsbut only does 720p UVC style23:06
daftykinsbut i figure, that's fine :D23:06
Safiyyahdirecthex,  they are free23:07
Safiyyahi downloaded them off the site23:07
directhexno source.23:07
Safiyyahi think there are US laws on the fax software because of telephone companies there but aside that...23:07
brobostigonSafiyyah: i suspect OSS was implied23:07
Safiyyahmaybe e-mailing someone at brother....23:08
Safiyyahone of the big guys23:08
daftykinsSafiyyah: he means you can't edit the source code and make it into a device to scan yourself into the computer like real life Tron23:08
daftykinsbut one day... one day...23:08
SafiyyahOR brother wakes up to becoming free23:08
directhexdaftykins, or, y'know, use it on amd64 properly23:08
directhexor fix the egregious packaging bugs23:08
daftykinsdirecthex: Tron first though, right?23:08
HazRPGdaftykins: heh, yeah my microsoft one does 720p pretty well :)23:11
HazRPGand its wide-screened, which I find rather random23:11
daftykinsyeah this one too23:11
daftykinsin fect, it was 4:3 and lower res during a skype video call to a friend, then i stopped hammering my upload and it decided to go widescreen and higher-res :D23:12
daftykinsfact even, not fect23:12
AlanBellanyone seen any benefit from the new skype beta?23:12
directhexAlanBell, the new skype beta supports h264 video, that's the major feature23:13
directhexthe last beta couldn't do video to non-linux clients23:13
directhexfrom, even23:13
AlanBellfairly sure it did23:13
AlanBellunless more of my relatives are running Linux than I previously thought23:14
daftykinsand thus the war was won23:15
Seeker`bah, can't find ppa.launchpad.net maverick/main for some reason :/23:29
brobostigongood night everyone, sleep well.23:44

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