[00:00] Currently [00:00] Planned 32 bit [00:00] I'm on 64 anyway to support ludicrous Java RAM gobblers [00:00] like minecraft [00:00] ;/ [00:00] oh, of course, sims medieval i sims 3 engine, so is mono-based [00:06] what is local type inference? [00:12] ali1234: I cheated and used google http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb384937.aspx#Y200 [00:12] yeah i don't understand that [00:13] sounds like some sort of guessing the variable type [00:13] it reads like, if applied to C, it means you could write "x = 10;" instead of "int x = 10;" ... but only inside a function... [00:13] not something I've ever used, when mostly coding in C [00:13] i don't see how that makes any sense or is useful to anyone at all [00:14] useful for scripting [00:14] or lazy people [00:14] how? [00:14] most scripting languages are weakly typed anyway [00:15] my opinion is coders are been given the tools to get sloppier and sloppier, and some are not gaining a lot of the skills required to be "reliable" [00:16] when coding with older methods [00:16] either i'm misunderstanding this, or it's just another dumb idea presented as the fix for all problems [00:17] I suspect it is what you think [00:17] :) [00:35] mother's day email offers for last few weeks.... now the easter offers :/ [00:37] http://www.mono-project.com/MoMA <- is this thingumy packaged on ubuntu? [00:42] ali1234: wouldn't most people test such things on windows before switching everything? [00:42] ali1234, no. there's not much point since you want the latest version with the latest sigantures [00:42] hamitron: that's not really the point, it's a mono app, should run anywhere [00:43] ah, k [00:43] it runs fine. [00:43] directhex: actually what i would want is a version that matches the version of mono on ubuntu, so it can tell me if some random mono app i downloaded will work or not [00:43] but it's not hugely valuable to package [00:43] ali1234, oh... i see. that's a reasonable idea [00:43] not that i download mono/.net apps or anything :) [00:44] ali1234: you just wanted to clear that up? ;) [00:44] yes :) [00:45] do windows users still download random shareware apps from websites? [00:45] * hamitron does [00:45] eg tucows, are they still going? [00:46] i mean the aggregator sites... or do most people go to the developer's site these days? [00:46] tucows was basically an appstore before anyone even heard of an appstore [00:46] things are still about, but I've grown out/tired of breaking things [00:47] ali1234: lies, Apple invented it [00:47] ;/ [00:47] i thought valve invented it [00:47] :)) [00:47] ali1234 earns a wry smile [00:47] isn't apt-get the first app store? :> [00:48] no, cos you can't browse with apt-get [00:48] suppose a ftp server with loads of apps for download is.... [00:48] tucows had screenshots and reviews of apps in like 1996 [00:50] tucows was all shareware and demos, you couldn't buy anything - it was just a file server really [00:51] so an appstore is like a fileserver, but demands money for individual things....? [00:51] i think there was a a similar site where you could buy shareware stuff [00:51] probably called "downloadbestwindowsshareware.com" or something [00:51] 99% of those domains are virus sites now [00:52] tucows is pretty much a scumbucket now too :/ [00:52] man, i remember the days when we laughed at the idea of getting a virus on email [00:54] computers and the internet are just a "tool" for the masses now [00:54] this is just the usual trolling tho :/ [00:54] not much better than tv [00:56] I hate the term trolling [00:56] ;/ [00:56] irks me when people pick a falsehood and run it into the ground [00:56] apple don't claim to have invented the appstore concept/model. they just trademarked 'app store' itself, because they were the first to name it that. [00:57] but feel free to whine away about who claims they invented what :) [00:57] I hate claims to general terms too [00:57] haha [00:57] man, I need to stop moaning :/ [00:58] who actually did invent it though? [00:58] * txwikinger seriously doubts the trademark would stand up if challenged [00:58] txwikinger: it's being challenged now i thought? [00:58] it has & is being challenged. [00:58] A grocery cannot trademark the term apple [00:58] Yeah I think so [00:58] if this is such a general term, who else was using it? [00:59] did MS get the right to the term "Windows"? [00:59] it is not about using it [00:59] sure it is. [00:59] apple vs amazon [00:59] so, amazon [00:59] if it is a term that is in general use in your field of business, you cannot trademark it - does not matter what [00:59] hamitron: Windows is different [01:00] so "general use" = "a term no-one ever used" ? [01:00] no.. it has to be a general term in your field of business [01:00] okay, who in that field of business was using it [01:00] the term "app" has been used for a long time, and a "store" is too [01:00] The beatles where able to trademark the term Apple records or whatever, since an apple has nothing to do with music [01:01] yes, because trademarks are always in context [01:01] A super market could never trademark the term apple [01:01] App is clearly a term in general use in the software business [01:02] i'm sure they could if apple was a brand applied to many products other than apples [01:02] it is now, because everyone's trying to emulate their success. [01:02] fact is, "app store" was not a common term, at all, by any reach of the imagination, before apple launched a product named thus. [01:03] Well. application and short app was used for a long time [01:03] it's just "hoover" all over again [01:03] they have to defend it [01:03] I think app shop was [01:04] apple could have called it "whargarble" and now everyone would be trying to make their own "whargarble" [01:04] yep [01:04] right. and everyone would be claiming that whargarble was a perfectly common term :) [01:04] app store is like if a grocery would trademark the term grocery [01:04] it's more like if the first ever supermarket had tried to trademark the word supermarket [01:04] "whargarble" does not use any terms in it [01:05] it's spelt wharrgarbl [01:05] no, wharrgarbl is a common term, you can;t trademark that :) [01:05] :> [01:07] I dunno why they don't just shut the door, so others can't move in on their market [01:07] by offering good value and service [01:07] actually there is a similar example: 7-eleven is trademarked [01:08] even though you might argue it's a common term, at least in america [01:08] 'windows' is trademarked. you can trademark generic terms within specific scopes. [01:08] shauno: that is silly too [01:10] sure. but otherwise there'd be nothing stopping me launching a magazine in the UK named 'computer shopper'. I mean. they're generic terms. [01:10] and I'd agree you should be able to [01:10] Trademark only applies if someone is trying to mislead others with an association to a registered Mark [01:11] Just using the phrase app store would not be likely to lead to a successful case in court [01:11] Mark holder needs to proves that the defendant is trying to mislead or consume others [01:12] Rem silly iPad [01:12] Mislead others [01:12] reckon Apple own "i"? [01:12] so you're telling me that a US court would agree that apple computer was trying to mislead customers by conflicting with apple records? [01:13] there have been a few cases over iWhatevers [01:13] So unless apple can prove that someone is trying to make people believe another app store is associated with apple or likely to lead people to believe it is, apple will not win [01:14] I reckon Apple are trying to implement the I-Robot movie [01:14] And that is why apple are likely to lose this one [01:14] and it is all gonna go wrong [01:14] ;) [01:14] handy checklist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_litigation_of_Apple_Computer [01:15] Because ms can make reasoned arguments that no-one will confuse Ms app store with apple app store [01:15] intel's is called "appup" [01:15] Given the high profile of both brands [01:16] I think the catch there is that it's rarely referred to as 'the apple app store'. it's just "on the app store". [01:16] Furthermore windows apps will not work on iOS [01:16] So apple have very little chance of winning this battle [01:16] that's the killer [01:16] and I do believe MS are intentionally piggybacking that because their 900-odd apps can't compete otherwise. [01:16] there's no way you can accidentally buy from the wrong one [01:16] The only reason they are trying to enforce the trademark is for publicity really [01:17] because they need lawsuits for publicity? for the 7 remaining people who haven't heard of them? [01:17] you can very easily be mislead into buying the wrong one [01:17] They need to show they are not afraid of Microsoft [01:17] It is just a big pr game [01:18] Plus it would make it difficult for apple to then defend other trademarks against smaller companies [01:18] you hear some new racing game is out on the app store. so you pull out your windows phone, punch up the clone store, and find ... what. [01:18] They would be seen as vexatious [01:18] they were never given the set of toy soldiers they wanted as a kid..... [01:19] Brb food [01:20] you certainly don't get told "no, this is halfords, we sell airfreshners. you were looking for metal in the record store". you get sold some subpar crap and the sale is hijacked. [01:20] maybe [01:20] but you're just as likely to buy some knock-off from the real appstore [01:21] and that maybe is exactly what MS are trying to gain, because their platform hasn't found any other way to compete [01:21] tbh, it is tough drawing a line :/ [01:22] non-generic terms of today will be accepted and thought of as generic tomorrow.... but then if someone who started it has the "rights" you can't have competition [01:23] sure you can. you just don't call it the same thing. [01:23] you can sell a cooker without calling it an aga. [01:23] this isn't any kind of rights over the model. just the name. [01:24] what about the term podcasts? [01:24] "app store" is pretty freaking generic [01:24] hamitron, that's a more interesting case, since it's based on a trademark - but isn't quite, and isn't apple's term to begin with [01:24] people keep saying this. yet no-one can actually show it being used pre-apple [01:25] we used to call it "downloading an mp3" [01:25] well, podcast is a generic term now, used on a lot of websites [01:25] I mean appstore. podcast was derivative but never anyone's to lose [01:25] i don't like inventing new terms for things anyway [01:26] if you assume apple do have the right to it.... how do other manufacturers "support" podcasts with their products? [01:26] they should have called the ipod "the portable music in mp3 format listening box with white headphones" [01:26] i can see apple trying to lay claim to "app". [01:26] haha ali1234 [01:27] that's what makes it completely different to "grocery store". no-one called it an app store before them. it was never generic. [01:27] it is 2 generic terms [01:27] :/ [01:28] so's safeway [01:28] this is a pointless argument anyway, since the outcome of the case basically defines what the law says [01:28] when it's decided then we can argue about if the judge made the right decision [01:28] "debate" ;) [01:29] argue sounds like we are biting chunks out of each other :/ [01:29] i just wanted to know how windows users get software these days [01:30] I just wanted to point out that "haha, no apple invented the app store wink wink" was just FUD :) [01:30] "I am a windows user and get my apps from the web, and I have another program called AVG that automatically uninstalls them after use" [01:30] well yeah [01:31] i guess the answer is they add them on facebook [01:31] It is all very well getting emotional, but from a legal perspective apple have very little chance of winning this [01:33] so what is the best way to make a new trademark to work under? [01:33] And as a legal scholar I say that with some educated confidence [01:34] as an engineer I love attempting stuff, but the idea of all the legal stuff is just scarey [01:34] so, names their online _music_ store "itunes" in the face of apple's "itunes" trademark, apple wins [01:35] Law is my life and I love it [01:35] then names their online _software_ store "app store" in the face of apple's "app store" trademark, and apple doesn't win [01:36] But if apple had called iTunes "music Store" theynwould face the same difficulty they face in the app store case [01:36] loosely related.... can someone patent an idea they can't get to work? just the general principle? [01:36] hamitron: currently, yes [01:36] Ish [01:36] hamitron: there's loads of patents like that [01:36] yeh [01:36] A patent has to be accompanied with diagrams [01:36] but do they stand up? [01:36] for whacky stuff like pyramid healing and stuff [01:37] you can patent whatever you like. the more stupid it is, the less chance it'll stand at dispute [01:37] But the diagrams can be loosely conceptual [01:37] I saw a patent for a client-server model for online gaming [01:37] with block diagrams [01:38] The diagrams have to be such that anyone with equal skill could reproduce the thing being patented [01:39] So strictly speaking you can't patent an idea as a concept [01:39] my personal attitude is if I made something and it clashed with it, I'd give them the middle finger if they complained [01:40] anyone can build a patended device, you just can't sell it [01:40] Yes [01:40] and if you're selling it you have something to lose by doing that [01:40] But the patent has to provide all the information needed to make that "device" [01:40] Which is why software patents are so controversial [01:40] yes. that doesn't guarantee that it actually *works* though [01:41] PalaPad_: so a car that powers itself off the air around it is not worth the paper it is written on? [01:41] Not unless you can show how and others can reproduce from that explanation [01:42] Although the caveat is US patents usually don't follow the rles [01:42] Rules [01:42] http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/D245233.html [01:42] dowsing rod patent [01:42] anyone can build it, doesn't mean it will work though [01:44] Patents are only as good as the patent office overseeing applications [01:44] And US patent office is a joke [01:45] 1 area I am interested in, is researching renewable forms of energy [01:45] but a lot have taken gambles in general principles [01:46] and when you read some of them you think, "why bother?" [01:46] Anyway I am gonna watch a movie, didn't get home from meeting til 1am so need to chillax a bit [01:46] okies, take care [01:46] :) [01:46] Finally get to go home tomorrow :) [01:47] Will be nice to see my son and missus again [01:48] someone in the US managed to patent the act of patent trolling :/ [01:48] hahaha [01:48] well, I shouldn't say managed. it was filed atleast [01:48] Haliburton [01:48] halliburton? [01:48] Haliburton filed a patent on filing patents [01:49] iirc [01:49] patent trolling would even break the patent for filing patents ;) [01:50] if they were accepted ofc [01:53] lo [01:55] Lo [01:55] High [01:55] Not tonight [01:56] lol [01:56] evening chaps [01:56] :) [01:56] Although I am the wrong side of 6 double G&Ts [01:56] * Seeker` has been wasting his time starting to write a raytracer [01:58] wasted my evening talking in here, wasted my day with phone calls and problems [01:58] got nothing productive done, like gaming [01:58] ;/ [01:58] Spent my evening in a meeting [01:58] sponsored lots of packages [01:58] http://cjo20.net/rubbishray [02:00] :) [02:03] anyways [02:03] 5 hours left for sleep [02:03] so better get off [02:03] o/ [02:05] someone really needs to come out with some new drive enclosures. trying to read 500Gb over usb is pretty weak :/ [02:09] shauno, thunderbolt! [02:09] I know! but no-one's actually selling them yet :/ [02:10] still waiting to find out what the price is gonna be on http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10549 [02:29] Seeker`: aspiring name :) [02:29] and congratulations for being the reason I've opened my first .bmp file for almost 10 years [05:25] \o [05:25] seems we had a bit of a breakup on the server but we are all back together again... morning \o [06:20] morning [06:35] morning everybody [06:35] \o [06:38] o/ [06:38] how are you MartijnVdS [06:39] brak :) [07:21] Silly question, but anyone know how to change keymap from the xp login screen? [07:25] in Xp thats still a registry fix [07:25] google " Xp login screen keyboard layout reg fix" [07:26] http://www.techspot.com/vb/topic21320.html [07:27] Hm. Bit stuffed until I can login then [07:27] shauno: having issues with the dvorak :( ? [07:28] did you not install it with the dvorak keyset? [07:29] ahhhh numpad to the rescue [07:29] ? [07:29] much better :D [07:30] for reasons probably best known to windows, my login screen was set to USian when I got in this morning [07:30] .... my password contains a £ [07:30] *thunk* [07:30] shauno: heh I use brackets in mine [07:31] can't imagine how confusing it is when my laptop plays funny with me and decides that the arabic keyset is my default :/ [07:31] when they came up with this stupid requirement for special characters in passwords, I resorted to using ex-gf's phone numbers while holding down shift. [07:32] xD [07:32] may have to rethink this if I can't trust the layout :( [07:32] wait, who came up with the requirement? work? [07:33] yeah [07:33] oh, if your going to change your passwords... for the love of god don't use unprintables >_< [07:34] I have a friend who set his password to half things like ALT+192 etc... [07:34] s/half/have [07:34] apparently, so did I. I just didn't find out until this morning [07:34] :< [07:34] and well when he went to change his windows password... it wouldn't let him because it couldn't recognise the characters [07:35] yet windows would let him enter it on startup! [07:35] (use the password I mean) [07:35] which to me means they have two methods for some reason to check the password :S [07:35] Dear God ! Unprintable passwords [07:36] they most likely do, especially if he's usint the ctrl+alt+delete to login thingie [07:36] knightwise: its great because they're hard to bruteforce... but not so great when things won't let you change them xD [07:36] I can't remember what linux calls that, it's one of the SysRq incantations [07:37] SysRq?? [07:38] I know the CTRL+ALT+DEL login thing [07:38] "press combo to begin login" [07:38] I think it's sysrq+K (but don't try it, because magic keys are less forgiving than my memory) [07:39] switches to some kind of raw keyboard access so you know the program you're typing into is the only one receiving the keypresses [07:39] (which is the intention with ctrl+alt+del too. if it's the wrong app, it'll kick you back to the xp security dialog) [07:40] well [07:40] oh right, I didn't realise that [07:40] historically ctrl-alt-del is actually detected by the keyboard controller and hardwired to a particular interrupt [07:41] ah, yeah; definately don't try sysrq+K at the bequest of my memory :) [07:41] "Kill all processes on the current virtual console (Can be used to kill X and svgalib programs, see below) [07:41] I won't :P [07:41] This was originally designed to imitate a Secure Access Key@ [07:42] hmm, seems I've ran out of stuff to drink at home :/ [07:42] if you do it at a tty login tho, you'll kill everything, respawn a getty, so you know you're getting the login bin the system intends [07:42] so coffee it is I guess [07:43] ah cool [07:43] Morning [07:43] not sure ubuntu has sysrq enabled out of the box, but interesting to know that ancient variants of 'ctrl+alt+del to login' are still knocking around :) [07:45] indeed [07:45] what's more interesting is the fact that SysRq still gets printed on the keyboard! [07:46] along with Pause/Break [07:46] and scroll lock [07:46] sysrq should :D it's really useful once you grow to trust it [07:46] I'm pretty sure scroll lock is only useful if your at a terminal/command prompt of some description [07:47] hello all [07:47] not sure scroll lock is any use unless the bios is handling the terminal. which we don't tend to do anymore, because it's uglier than I am [07:47] morning daubers, MooDoo [07:48] mornin' guys [07:48] shauno: that was what I kinda meant in my own quirky way [07:51] sysrq is useful all over again now that I've discovered you can use it without a local keyboard now :) [07:52] anyhow. taking 90 minutes to login to windows is my new favourite way to start a shift. [07:52] I'm still waiting for MIS to find me. thank $deity for internets phones. [07:54] lol [07:54] Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas based maybe? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjJEYTiga0 [07:55] fear & loathing is when you call MIS because you're the only person on shift and you don't have a computer [07:56] and a lady in singapore answers [07:57] 'follow the sun' can bite me, frankly [07:58] "Don't move!" [07:58] "I'm not moving!" [08:00] I suppose I should get some work done today :/ [08:00] *grumbles about having to see a shoddy database* [08:02] HazRPG: You can go and train people for me instead if you want [08:03] daubers: lol only if you'll build the website I need to make for me ^^ [08:10] HazRPG: Or! You can teach me how to do 3d design properly :) [08:21] * daubers goes to load up the car with heavy expensive things :( [08:28] downside of v6 addresses, is they're not quite so elegant, are they :/ [08:47] hmm [08:50] shauno: they can be [08:50] shauno: 2001:abcd::dead:beef:cafe [08:51] MartijnVdS: I have dead:beef at home :D [08:52] I noticed facebook's god nerded too [08:52] er, *got [08:52] www.v6.facebook.com has AAAA address 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3 [08:53] 2001::faec:e5 8-) [08:53] heh [08:54] I like to think face:b00c is evidence that someone trapped in a basement somewhere actually has a sense of humour [08:59] hi folks [08:59] is it IPv6 day? [08:59] dwatkins: not yet, but you may assume it is ;) [09:00] MartijnVdS: every day should be IPv6 day, of course... [09:02] hmm gnome 3 demo video's on Lifehacker [09:02] interesting [09:06] hello guys [09:06] how can i make FTP server on my own laptop so i can login to it and manage users and such things [09:06] i mean local FTP serve [09:06] server [09:08] !ftp [09:08] FTP clients: Nautilus (Places -> Connect to server), gFTP, FileZilla (for !GNOME); Konqueror, Kasablanca, KFTPGrabber (for !KDE); FireFTP (for Firefox); ftp, lftp (for !cli) - See also !FTPd [09:08] !ftpd [09:08] FTP servers: ftpd, proftpd, pure-ftpd, twoftpd, vsftpd, MuddleFTPd, wzdftpd - Graphical front-ends: PureAdmin, GProftpd (for GNOME), KcmPureftpd (for !KDE) - See also !FTP [09:09] aloha [09:11] hihi [09:13] knightwise: I really like lifehacker, some amazingly useful stuff on there [09:13] indeed [09:13] i just dont like the new blog layout [09:14] so i just read the rss feeds [09:15] Good morning peeps :) [09:16] hey bigcalm [09:16] Hey [09:20] Morning oo, did you manage to get your computer sorted out [09:21] o/ ivanka [09:22] AlanBell: hello! [09:22] morning all [09:22] ivanka: can you pop in to #ubuntu-accessibility [09:22] anyone see the late april fools joke on slashdot? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/04/07/0212222/France-Outlaws-Hashed-Passwords [09:23] AlanBell: sure - will add it to my chats [09:23] Afternoon popey [09:28] I forget, how does one clean out unwanted kernals, the 'propper' way (not just deleting from /boot and editing the grub menu) [09:28] ? [09:29] bigcalm: ubuntu tweak has an option for that, or there's a big ugly one-liner to do it too [09:29] ive taken a look at commodore64.net [09:29] i think its vaporware though [09:35] oimon: might be quicker for me to hover /boot myself [09:36] knightwise: i ended up at commodore64.org ... very differnt! [09:36] DJones: Yeah i managed to get a cd drive for it, and installed from there :) [09:40] morning guys [09:41] knightwise: I still have my Amiga 500 in the cellar... :) [09:41] 500 girlfriends in the cellar? [09:41]