[00:00] <awilkins> Currently
[00:00] <awilkins> Planned 32 bit
[00:00] <awilkins> I'm on 64 anyway to support ludicrous Java RAM gobblers
[00:00] <hamitron> like minecraft
[00:00] <hamitron> ;/
[00:00] <directhex> oh, of course, sims medieval i sims 3 engine, so is mono-based
[00:06] <ali1234> what is local type inference?
[00:12] <hamitron> ali1234: I cheated and used google http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb384937.aspx#Y200
[00:12] <ali1234> yeah i don't understand that
[00:13] <hamitron> sounds like some sort of guessing the variable type
[00:13] <ali1234> it reads like, if applied to C, it means you could write "x = 10;" instead of "int x = 10;" ... but only inside a function...
[00:13] <hamitron> not something I've ever used, when mostly coding in C
[00:13] <ali1234> i don't see how that makes any sense or is useful to anyone at all
[00:14] <hamitron> useful for scripting
[00:14] <hamitron> or lazy people
[00:14] <ali1234> how?
[00:14] <ali1234> most scripting languages are weakly typed anyway
[00:15] <hamitron> my opinion is coders are been given the tools to get sloppier and sloppier, and some are not gaining a lot of the skills required to be "reliable"
[00:16] <hamitron> when coding with older methods
[00:16] <ali1234> either i'm misunderstanding this, or it's just another dumb idea presented as the fix for all problems
[00:17] <hamitron> I suspect it is what you think
[00:17] <hamitron> :)
[00:35] <hamitron> mother's day email offers for last few weeks.... now the easter offers :/
[00:37] <ali1234> http://www.mono-project.com/MoMA <- is this thingumy packaged on ubuntu?
[00:42] <hamitron> ali1234: wouldn't most people test such things on windows before switching everything?
[00:42] <directhex> ali1234, no. there's not much point since you want the latest version with the latest sigantures
[00:42] <ali1234> hamitron: that's not really the point, it's a mono app, should run anywhere
[00:43] <hamitron> ah, k
[00:43] <directhex> it runs fine.
[00:43] <ali1234> directhex: actually what i would want is a version that matches the version of mono on ubuntu, so it can tell me if some random mono app i downloaded will work or not
[00:43] <directhex> but it's not hugely valuable to package
[00:43] <directhex> ali1234, oh... i see. that's a reasonable idea
[00:43] <ali1234> not that i download mono/.net apps or anything :)
[00:44] <hamitron> ali1234: you just wanted to clear that up? ;)
[00:44] <ali1234> yes :)
[00:45] <ali1234> do windows users still download random shareware apps from websites?
[00:45]  * hamitron does
[00:45] <ali1234> eg tucows, are they still going?
[00:46] <ali1234> i mean the aggregator sites... or do most people go to the developer's site these days?
[00:46] <ali1234> tucows was basically an appstore before anyone even heard of an appstore
[00:46] <hamitron> things are still about, but I've grown out/tired of breaking things
[00:47] <hamitron> ali1234: lies, Apple invented it
[00:47] <hamitron> ;/
[00:47] <ali1234> i thought valve invented it
[00:47] <hamitron> :))
[00:47] <directhex> ali1234 earns a wry smile
[00:47] <directhex> isn't apt-get the first app store? :>
[00:48] <ali1234> no, cos you can't browse with apt-get
[00:48] <hamitron> suppose a ftp server with loads of apps for download is....
[00:48] <ali1234> tucows had screenshots and reviews of apps in like 1996
[00:50] <gord> tucows was all shareware and demos, you couldn't buy anything - it was just a file server really
[00:51] <hamitron> so an appstore is like a fileserver, but demands money for individual things....?
[00:51] <ali1234> i think there was a a similar site where you could buy shareware stuff
[00:51] <ali1234> probably called "downloadbestwindowsshareware.com" or something
[00:51] <ali1234> 99% of those domains are virus sites now
[00:52] <shauno> tucows is pretty much a scumbucket now too :/
[00:52] <ali1234> man, i remember the days when we laughed at the idea of getting a virus on email
[00:54] <hamitron> computers and the internet are just a "tool" for the masses now
[00:54] <shauno> this is just the usual trolling tho :/
[00:54] <hamitron> not much better than tv
[00:56] <hamitron> I hate the term trolling
[00:56] <hamitron> ;/
[00:56] <shauno> irks me when people pick a falsehood and run it into the ground
[00:56] <shauno> apple don't claim to have invented the appstore concept/model.  they just trademarked 'app store' itself, because they were the first to name it that.
[00:57] <shauno> but feel free to whine away about who claims they invented what :)
[00:57] <hamitron> I hate claims to general terms too
[00:57] <hamitron> haha
[00:57] <hamitron> man, I need to stop moaning :/
[00:58] <ali1234> who actually did invent it though?
[00:58]  * txwikinger seriously doubts the trademark would stand up if challenged
[00:58] <ali1234> txwikinger: it's being challenged now i thought?
[00:58] <shauno> it has & is being challenged.
[00:58] <txwikinger> A grocery cannot trademark the term apple
[00:58] <txwikinger> Yeah I think so
[00:58] <shauno> if this is such a general term, who else was using it?
[00:59] <hamitron> did MS get the right to the term "Windows"?
[00:59] <txwikinger> it is not about using it
[00:59] <shauno> sure it is.
[00:59] <ali1234> apple vs amazon
[00:59] <ali1234> so, amazon
[00:59] <txwikinger> if it is a term that is in general use in your field of business, you cannot trademark it - does not matter what
[00:59] <txwikinger> hamitron: Windows is different
[01:00] <shauno> so "general use" = "a term no-one ever used" ?
[01:00] <txwikinger> no.. it has to be a general term in your field of business
[01:00] <shauno> okay, who in that field of business was using it
[01:00] <hamitron> the term "app" has been used for a long time, and a "store" is too
[01:00] <txwikinger> The beatles where able to trademark the term Apple records or whatever, since an apple has nothing to do with music
[01:01] <shauno> yes, because trademarks are always in context
[01:01] <txwikinger> A super market could never trademark the term apple
[01:01] <txwikinger> App is clearly a term in general use in the software business
[01:02] <ali1234> i'm sure they could if apple was a brand applied to many products other than apples
[01:02] <shauno> it is now, because everyone's trying to emulate their success.
[01:02] <shauno> fact is, "app store" was not a common term, at all, by any reach of the imagination, before apple launched a product named thus.
[01:03] <txwikinger> Well.  application and short app was used for a long time
[01:03] <ali1234> it's just "hoover" all over again
[01:03] <ali1234> they have to defend it
[01:03] <txwikinger> I think app shop was
[01:04] <ali1234> apple could have called it "whargarble" and now everyone would be trying to make their own "whargarble"
[01:04] <txwikinger> yep
[01:04] <shauno> right.  and everyone would be claiming that whargarble was a perfectly common term :)
[01:04] <txwikinger> app store is like if a grocery would trademark the term grocery
[01:04] <ali1234> it's more like if the first ever supermarket had tried to trademark the word supermarket
[01:04] <hamitron> "whargarble" does not use any terms in it
[01:05] <directhex> it's spelt wharrgarbl
[01:05] <ali1234> no, wharrgarbl is a common term, you can;t trademark that :)
[01:05] <directhex> :>
[01:07] <hamitron> I dunno why they don't just shut the door, so others can't move in on their market
[01:07] <hamitron> by offering good value and service
[01:07] <ali1234> actually there is a similar example: 7-eleven is trademarked
[01:08] <ali1234> even though you might argue it's a common term, at least in america
[01:08] <shauno> 'windows' is trademarked.  you can trademark generic terms within specific scopes.
[01:08] <hamitron> shauno: that is silly too
[01:10] <shauno> sure.  but otherwise there'd be nothing stopping me launching a magazine in the UK named 'computer shopper'.  I mean.  they're generic terms.
[01:10] <hamitron> and I'd agree you should be able to
[01:10] <PalaPad_> Trademark only applies if someone is trying to mislead others with an association to a registered Mark
[01:11] <PalaPad_> Just using the phrase app store would not be likely to lead to a successful case in court
[01:11] <PalaPad_> Mark holder needs to proves that the defendant is trying to mislead or consume others
[01:12] <PalaPad_> Rem silly iPad
[01:12] <PalaPad_> Mislead others
[01:12] <hamitron> reckon Apple own "i"?
[01:12] <shauno> so you're telling me that a US court would agree that apple computer was trying to mislead customers by conflicting with apple records?
[01:13] <ali1234> there have been a few cases over iWhatevers
[01:13] <PalaPad_> So unless apple can prove that someone is trying to make people believe another app store is associated with apple or likely to lead people to believe it is, apple will not win
[01:14] <hamitron> I reckon Apple are trying to implement the I-Robot movie
[01:14] <PalaPad_> And that is why apple are likely to lose this one
[01:14] <hamitron> and it is all gonna go wrong
[01:14] <hamitron> ;)
[01:14] <ali1234> handy checklist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_litigation_of_Apple_Computer
[01:15] <PalaPad_> Because ms can make reasoned arguments that no-one will confuse Ms app store with apple app store
[01:15] <ali1234> intel's is called "appup"
[01:15] <PalaPad_> Given the high profile of both brands
[01:16] <shauno> I think the catch there is that it's rarely referred to as 'the apple app store'.  it's just "on the app store".
[01:16] <PalaPad_> Furthermore windows apps will not work on iOS
[01:16] <PalaPad_> So apple have very little chance of winning this battle
[01:16] <ali1234> that's the killer
[01:16] <shauno> and I do believe MS are intentionally piggybacking that because their 900-odd apps can't compete otherwise.
[01:16] <ali1234> there's no way you can accidentally buy from the wrong one
[01:16] <PalaPad_> The only reason they are trying to enforce the trademark is for publicity really
[01:17] <shauno> because they need lawsuits for publicity?  for the 7 remaining people who haven't heard of them?
[01:17] <shauno> you can very easily be mislead into buying the wrong one
[01:17] <PalaPad_> They need to show they are not afraid of Microsoft
[01:17] <PalaPad_> It is just a big pr game
[01:18] <PalaPad_> Plus it would make it difficult for apple to then defend other trademarks against smaller companies
[01:18] <shauno> you hear some new racing game is out on the app store.  so you pull out your windows phone, punch up the clone store, and find ... what.
[01:18] <PalaPad_> They would be seen as vexatious
[01:18] <hamitron> they were never given the set of toy soldiers they wanted as a kid.....
[01:19] <PalaPad_> Brb food
[01:20] <shauno> you certainly don't get told "no, this is halfords, we sell airfreshners.  you were looking for metal in the record store".  you get sold some subpar crap and the sale is hijacked.
[01:20] <ali1234> maybe
[01:20] <ali1234> but you're just as likely to buy some knock-off from the real appstore
[01:21] <shauno> and that maybe is exactly what MS are trying to gain, because their platform hasn't found any other way to compete
[01:21] <hamitron> tbh, it is tough drawing a line :/
[01:22] <hamitron> non-generic terms of today will be accepted and thought of as generic tomorrow.... but then if someone who started it has the "rights" you can't have competition
[01:23] <shauno> sure you can.  you just don't call it the same thing.
[01:23] <shauno> you can sell a cooker without calling it an aga.
[01:23] <shauno> this isn't any kind of rights over the model.  just the name.
[01:24] <hamitron> what about the term podcasts?
[01:24] <directhex> "app store" is pretty freaking generic
[01:24] <directhex> hamitron, that's a more interesting case, since it's based on a trademark - but isn't quite, and isn't apple's term to begin with
[01:24] <shauno> people keep saying this.  yet no-one can actually show it being used pre-apple
[01:25] <ali1234> we used to call it "downloading an mp3"
[01:25] <hamitron> well, podcast is a generic term now, used on a lot of websites
[01:25] <shauno> I mean appstore.  podcast was derivative but never anyone's to lose
[01:25] <ali1234> i don't like inventing new terms for things anyway
[01:26] <hamitron> if you assume apple do have the right to it.... how do other manufacturers "support" podcasts with their products?
[01:26] <ali1234> they should have called the ipod "the portable music in mp3 format listening box with white headphones"
[01:26] <directhex> i can see apple trying to lay claim to "app".
[01:26] <hamitron> haha ali1234
[01:27] <shauno> that's what makes it completely different to "grocery store".  no-one called it an app store before them.  it was never generic.
[01:27] <hamitron> it is 2 generic terms
[01:27] <hamitron> :/
[01:28] <shauno> so's safeway
[01:28] <ali1234> this is a pointless argument anyway, since the outcome of the case basically defines what the law says
[01:28] <ali1234> when it's decided then we can argue about if the judge made the right decision
[01:28] <hamitron> "debate" ;)
[01:29] <hamitron> argue sounds like we are biting chunks out of each other :/
[01:29] <ali1234> i just wanted to know how windows users get software these days
[01:30] <shauno> I just wanted to point out that "haha, no apple invented the app store wink wink" was just FUD  :)
[01:30] <hamitron> "I am a windows user and get my apps from the web, and I have another program called AVG that automatically uninstalls them after use"
[01:30] <ali1234> well yeah
[01:31] <ali1234> i guess the answer is they add them on facebook
[01:31] <PalaPad_> It is all very well getting emotional, but from a legal perspective apple have very little chance of winning this
[01:33] <hamitron> so what is the best way to make a new trademark to work under?
[01:33] <PalaPad_> And as a legal scholar I say that with some educated confidence
[01:34] <hamitron> as an engineer I love attempting stuff, but the idea of all the legal stuff is just scarey
[01:34] <shauno> so, <company> names their online _music_ store "itunes" in the face of apple's "itunes" trademark, apple wins
[01:35] <PalaPad_> Law is my life and I love it
[01:35] <shauno> then <company> names their online _software_ store "app store" in the face of apple's "app store" trademark, and apple doesn't win
[01:36] <PalaPad_> But if apple had called iTunes "music Store" theynwould face the same difficulty they face in the app store case
[01:36] <hamitron> loosely related.... can someone patent an idea they can't get to work? just the general principle?
[01:36] <shauno> hamitron: currently, yes
[01:36] <PalaPad_> Ish
[01:36] <ali1234> hamitron: there's loads of patents like that
[01:36] <hamitron> yeh
[01:36] <PalaPad_> A patent has to be accompanied with diagrams
[01:36] <hamitron> but do they stand up?
[01:36] <ali1234> for whacky stuff like pyramid healing and stuff
[01:37] <shauno> you can patent whatever you like.  the more stupid it is, the less chance it'll stand at dispute
[01:37] <PalaPad_> But the diagrams can be loosely conceptual
[01:37] <hamitron> I saw a patent for a client-server model for online gaming
[01:37] <hamitron> with block diagrams
[01:38] <PalaPad_> The diagrams have to be such that anyone with equal skill could reproduce the thing being patented
[01:39] <PalaPad_> So strictly speaking you can't patent an idea as a concept
[01:39] <hamitron> my personal attitude is if I made something and it clashed with it, I'd give them the middle finger if they complained
[01:40] <ali1234> anyone can build a patended device, you just can't sell it
[01:40] <PalaPad_> Yes
[01:40] <ali1234> and if you're selling it you have something to lose by doing that
[01:40] <PalaPad_> But the patent has to provide all the information needed to make that "device"
[01:40] <PalaPad_> Which is why software patents are so controversial
[01:40] <ali1234> yes. that doesn't guarantee that it actually *works* though
[01:41] <hamitron> PalaPad_: so a car that powers itself off the air around it is not worth the paper it is written on?
[01:41] <PalaPad_> Not unless you can show how and others can reproduce from that explanation
[01:42] <PalaPad_> Although the caveat is US patents usually don't follow the rles
[01:42] <PalaPad_> Rules
[01:42] <ali1234> http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/D245233.html
[01:42] <ali1234> dowsing rod patent
[01:42] <ali1234> anyone can build it, doesn't mean it will work though
[01:44] <PalaPad_> Patents are only as good as the patent office overseeing applications
[01:44] <PalaPad_> And US patent office is a joke
[01:45] <hamitron> 1 area I am interested in, is researching renewable forms of energy
[01:45] <hamitron> but a lot have taken gambles in general principles
[01:46] <hamitron> and when you read some of them you think, "why bother?"
[01:46] <PalaPad_> Anyway I am gonna watch a movie, didn't get home from meeting til 1am so need to chillax a bit
[01:46] <hamitron> okies, take care
[01:46] <hamitron> :)
[01:46] <PalaPad_> Finally get to go home tomorrow :)
[01:47] <PalaPad_> Will be nice to see my son and missus again
[01:48] <shauno> someone in the US managed to patent the act of patent trolling :/
[01:48] <hamitron> hahaha
[01:48] <shauno> well, I shouldn't say managed.  it was filed atleast
[01:48] <PalaPad_> Haliburton
[01:48] <ali1234> halliburton?
[01:48] <PalaPad_> Haliburton filed a patent on filing patents
[01:49] <PalaPad_> iirc
[01:49] <hamitron> patent trolling would even break the patent for filing patents ;)
[01:50] <hamitron> if they were accepted ofc
[01:53] <Seeker`> lo
[01:55] <PalaPad_> Lo
[01:55] <Azelphur> High
[01:55] <PalaPad_> Not tonight
[01:56] <Azelphur> lol
[01:56] <hamitron> evening chaps
[01:56] <hamitron> :)
[01:56] <PalaPad_> Although I am the wrong side of 6 double G&Ts
[01:56]  * Seeker` has been wasting his time starting to write a raytracer
[01:58] <hamitron> wasted my evening talking in here, wasted my day with phone calls and problems
[01:58] <hamitron> got nothing productive done, like gaming
[01:58] <hamitron> ;/
[01:58] <PalaPad_> Spent my evening in a meeting
[01:58] <directhex> sponsored lots of packages
[01:58] <Seeker`> http://cjo20.net/rubbishray
[02:00] <hamitron> :)
[02:03] <hamitron> anyways
[02:03] <hamitron> 5 hours left for sleep
[02:03] <hamitron> so better get off
[02:03] <hamitron> o/
[02:05] <shauno> someone really needs to come out with some new drive enclosures.  trying to read 500Gb over usb is pretty weak :/
[02:09] <directhex> shauno, thunderbolt!
[02:09] <shauno> I know! but no-one's actually selling them yet :/
[02:10] <shauno> still waiting to find out what the price is gonna be on http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10549
[02:29] <MattJ> Seeker`: aspiring name :)
[02:29] <MattJ> and congratulations for being the reason I've opened my first .bmp file for almost 10 years
[05:25] <HazRPG> \o
[05:25] <HazRPG> seems we had a bit of a breakup on the server but we are all back together again... morning \o
[06:20] <knightwise> morning
[06:35] <knightwise> morning everybody
[06:35] <MartijnVdS> \o
[06:38] <knightwise> o/
[06:38] <knightwise> how are you MartijnVdS
[06:39] <MartijnVdS> brak :)
[07:21] <shauno> Silly question, but anyone know how to change keymap from the xp login screen?
[07:25] <knightwise> in Xp thats still a registry fix
[07:25] <knightwise> google " Xp login screen keyboard layout reg fix"
[07:26] <knightwise> http://www.techspot.com/vb/topic21320.html
[07:27] <shauno> Hm. Bit stuffed until I can login then
[07:27] <HazRPG> shauno: having issues with the dvorak :( ?
[07:28] <HazRPG> did you not install it with the dvorak keyset?
[07:29] <shauno> ahhhh numpad to the rescue
[07:29] <HazRPG> ?
[07:29] <shauno> much better :D
[07:30] <shauno> for reasons probably best known to windows, my login screen was set to USian when I got in this morning
[07:30] <shauno> .... my password contains a £
[07:30] <shauno> *thunk*
[07:30] <HazRPG> shauno: heh I use brackets in mine
[07:31] <HazRPG> can't imagine how confusing it is when my laptop plays funny with me and decides that the arabic keyset is my default :/
[07:31] <shauno> when they came up with this stupid requirement for special characters in passwords, I resorted to using ex-gf's phone numbers while holding down shift.
[07:32] <HazRPG> xD
[07:32] <shauno> may have to rethink this if I can't trust the layout :(
[07:32] <HazRPG> wait, who came up with the requirement? work?
[07:33] <shauno> yeah
[07:33] <HazRPG> oh, if your going to change your passwords... for the love of god don't use unprintables >_<
[07:34] <HazRPG> I have a friend who set his password to half things like ALT+192 etc...
[07:34] <HazRPG> s/half/have
[07:34] <shauno> apparently, so did I.  I just didn't find out until this morning
[07:34] <shauno> :<
[07:34] <HazRPG> and well when he went to change his windows password... it wouldn't let him because it couldn't recognise the characters
[07:35] <HazRPG> yet windows would let him enter it on startup!
[07:35] <HazRPG> (use the password I mean)
[07:35] <HazRPG> which to me means they have two methods for some reason to check the password :S
[07:35] <knightwise> Dear God ! Unprintable passwords
[07:36] <shauno> they most likely do, especially if he's usint the ctrl+alt+delete to login thingie
[07:36] <HazRPG> knightwise: its great because they're hard to bruteforce... but not so great when things won't let you change them xD
[07:36] <shauno> I can't remember what linux calls that, it's one of the SysRq incantations
[07:37] <HazRPG> SysRq??
[07:38] <HazRPG> I know the CTRL+ALT+DEL login thing
[07:38] <HazRPG> "press combo to begin login"
[07:38] <shauno> I think it's sysrq+K (but don't try it, because magic keys are less forgiving than my memory)
[07:39] <shauno> switches to some kind of raw keyboard access so you know the program you're typing into is the only one receiving the keypresses
[07:39] <shauno> (which is the intention with ctrl+alt+del too.  if it's the wrong app, it'll kick you back to the xp security dialog)
[07:40] <gordonjcp> well
[07:40] <HazRPG> oh right, I didn't realise that
[07:40] <gordonjcp> historically ctrl-alt-del is actually detected by the keyboard controller and hardwired to a particular interrupt
[07:41] <shauno> ah, yeah; definately don't try sysrq+K at the bequest of my memory :)
[07:41] <shauno> "Kill all processes on the current virtual console (Can be used to kill X and svgalib programs, see below)
[07:41] <HazRPG> I won't :P
[07:41] <shauno> This was originally designed to imitate a Secure Access Key@
[07:42] <HazRPG> hmm, seems I've ran out of stuff to drink at home :/
[07:42] <shauno> if you do it at a tty login tho, you'll kill  everything, respawn a getty, so you know you're getting the login bin the system intends
[07:42] <HazRPG> so coffee it is I guess
[07:43] <HazRPG> ah cool
[07:43] <daubers> Morning
[07:43] <shauno> not sure ubuntu has sysrq enabled out of the box, but interesting to know that ancient variants of 'ctrl+alt+del to login' are still knocking around :)
[07:45] <HazRPG> indeed
[07:45] <HazRPG> what's more interesting is the fact that SysRq still gets printed on the keyboard!
[07:46] <HazRPG> along with Pause/Break
[07:46] <HazRPG> and scroll lock
[07:46] <shauno> sysrq should :D  it's really useful once you grow to trust it
[07:46] <HazRPG> I'm pretty sure scroll lock is only useful if your at a terminal/command prompt of some description
[07:47] <MooDoo> hello all
[07:47] <shauno> not sure scroll lock is any use unless the bios is handling the terminal.  which we don't tend to do anymore, because it's uglier than I am
[07:47] <shauno> morning daubers, MooDoo
[07:48] <HazRPG> mornin' guys
[07:48] <HazRPG> shauno: that was what I kinda meant in my own quirky way
[07:51] <shauno> sysrq is useful all over again now that I've discovered you can use it without a local keyboard now :)
[07:52] <shauno> anyhow.  taking 90 minutes to login to windows is my new favourite way to start a shift.
[07:52] <shauno> I'm still waiting for MIS to find me.  thank $deity for internets phones.
[07:54] <HazRPG> lol
[07:54] <HazRPG> Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas based maybe? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjJEYTiga0
[07:55] <shauno> fear & loathing is when you call MIS because you're the only person on shift and you don't have a computer
[07:56] <shauno> and a lady in singapore answers
[07:57] <shauno> 'follow the sun' can bite me, frankly
[07:58] <HazRPG> "Don't move!"
[07:58] <HazRPG> "I'm not moving!"
[08:00] <HazRPG> I suppose I should get some work done today :/
[08:00] <HazRPG> *grumbles about having to see a shoddy database*
[08:02] <daubers> HazRPG: You can go and train people for me instead if you want
[08:03] <HazRPG> daubers: lol only if you'll build the website I need to make for me ^^
[08:10] <daubers> HazRPG: Or! You can teach me how to do 3d design properly :)
[08:21]  * daubers goes to load up the car with heavy expensive things :(
[08:28] <shauno> downside of v6 addresses, is they're not quite so elegant, are they :/
[08:47] <UndiFineD> hmm
[08:50] <MartijnVdS> shauno: they can be
[08:50] <MartijnVdS> shauno: 2001:abcd::dead:beef:cafe
[08:51] <shauno> MartijnVdS: I have dead:beef at home :D
[08:52] <shauno> I noticed facebook's god nerded too
[08:52] <shauno> er, *got
[08:52] <shauno> www.v6.facebook.com     has AAAA address 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3
[08:53] <MartijnVdS> 2001::faec:e5 8-)
[08:53] <shauno> heh
[08:54] <shauno> I like to think face:b00c is evidence that someone trapped in a basement somewhere actually has a sense of humour
[08:59] <dwatkins> hi folks
[08:59] <dwatkins> is it IPv6 day?
[08:59] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: not yet, but you may assume it is ;)
[09:00] <dwatkins> MartijnVdS: every day should be IPv6 day, of course...
[09:02] <knightwise> hmm gnome 3 demo video's on Lifehacker
[09:02] <knightwise> interesting
[09:06] <phonex01> hello guys
[09:06] <phonex01> how can i make FTP server on my own laptop so i can login to it and manage users and such things
[09:06] <phonex01> i mean local FTP serve
[09:06] <phonex01> server
[09:08] <MartijnVdS> !ftp
[09:08] <MartijnVdS> !ftpd
[09:09] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:11] <dwatkins> hihi
[09:13] <dwatkins> knightwise: I really like lifehacker, some amazingly useful stuff on there
[09:13] <knightwise> indeed
[09:13] <knightwise> i just dont like the new blog layout
[09:14] <knightwise> so i just read the rss feeds
[09:15] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:16] <knightwise> hey bigcalm
[09:16] <oo> Hey
[09:20] <DJones> Morning oo, did you manage to get your computer sorted out
[09:21] <AlanBell> o/ ivanka
[09:22] <ivanka> AlanBell: hello!
[09:22] <popey> morning all
[09:22] <AlanBell> ivanka: can you pop in to #ubuntu-accessibility
[09:22] <oimon> anyone see the late april fools joke on slashdot? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/04/07/0212222/France-Outlaws-Hashed-Passwords
[09:23] <ivanka> AlanBell: sure - will add it to my chats
[09:23] <bigcalm> Afternoon popey
[09:28] <bigcalm> I forget, how does one clean out unwanted kernals, the 'propper' way (not just deleting from /boot and editing the grub menu)
[09:28] <bigcalm> ?
[09:29] <oimon> bigcalm: ubuntu tweak has an option for that, or there's a big ugly one-liner to do it too
[09:29] <knightwise> ive taken a look at commodore64.net
[09:29] <knightwise> i think its vaporware though
[09:35] <bigcalm> oimon: might be quicker for me to hover /boot myself
[09:36] <gpd> knightwise: i ended up at commodore64.org ... very differnt!
[09:36] <oo> DJones: Yeah i managed to get a cd drive for it, and installed from there :)
[09:40] <safiyyah> morning guys
[09:41] <gpd> knightwise: I still have my Amiga 500 in the cellar... :)
[09:41] <MartijnVdS> 500 girlfriends in the cellar?
[09:41] <shauno> I still have my 1200 on my desk :D
[09:42] <gpd> I'm still using an Amstrad 1512 (lies)
[09:42] <shauno> my 1200 is in 4 peices atm  (not lies :()
[09:43] <gpd> however, I think i'd rather play Portal 2 than dig out the old games...
[09:43]  * gpd ducks
[09:44] <bigcalm> Not long now
[09:44] <gpd> bigcalm: 17th right?
[09:44]  * bigcalm shrugs
[09:45] <bigcalm> I haven't looked at steam recently
[09:45] <bigcalm> This month though
[09:45] <bigcalm> Either 17th or 27th
[09:45] <bigcalm> 19th heh
[09:45] <gpd> I have a horrible feeling they might have ruined it
[09:46] <bigcalm> Ooo, there's a new video
[09:46] <gpd> the end songwith the cake was a master piece
[09:46] <gpd> game.co.uk says 21/04
[09:47]  * MartijnVdS ordered it from Amazon
[09:47] <MartijnVdS> for PS3
[09:47] <bigcalm> I'm looking at it on the steam store
[09:47] <bigcalm> Release Date: 19 Apr 2011
[09:48] <safiyyah> is compiz an American room?
[09:50] <shauno> I'm not sure it's meant to be geocentric, but chances are a good few idlers in there would be currently asleep
[09:50] <safiyyah> anyone here know about resetting compiz back to defaults?
[09:53] <DJones> safiyyah: http://www.ubuntugeek.com/ubuntu-tip-how-to-reset-compiz-settings-to-default-system-settings-from-command-line.html
[09:56] <safiyyah> DJones, thanx
[10:20] <winterweaver> What does the last part of the if statement do in this script? http://dpaste.com/529560/    .... I'm referring to the "| wc -l` -lt 1" bit
[10:20] <dwatkins> winterweaver: if it is 'less than' 1
[10:21] <dwatkins> -lt as opposed to -gt etc. as comparisons in bash
[10:21] <dwatkins> the backticks surrounding the ps command mean that it is executed and the result is then used
[10:21] <winterweaver> aaaah ok
[10:21] <winterweaver> and the pipe to wc -l ?
[10:22] <dwatkins> that redirects the output to the wc command, you'll find details of the option on the manpage, i.e. at the terminal execute: man wc
[10:22] <winterweaver> ok thx
[10:22] <dwatkins> or just google 'man wc' like I do when I'm lazy
[10:23] <dwatkins> be aware there are sometimes different versions of  commands with different options, however
[10:23] <winterweaver> ok thank you I see now how the command works :)
[10:24] <dwatkins> excellent
[10:24] <AlanBell> or type man:wc into firefox
[10:31] <hoover> good mornin
[10:32] <smittix> Morning
[10:33] <oimon> man:wc is nicer in konqueror :P
[10:34] <smittix> Why the hell can i not get a route out of my natty installation
[10:34] <hoover> whats wrong smittix?
[10:34] <hoover> Have you tried setting it manually?
[10:34] <smittix> Yeah I always do it manually
[10:35] <smittix> It just doesn't work, It say's its there but no connection
[10:35] <smittix> On my maverick box it works fine
[10:36] <hoover> ok Weird... have you checked netstat -nr?
[10:36] <smittix> I think I did last time i tried. Going to try again in a mo
[10:38] <smittix> plus fglrx doesnt work for me
[10:38] <smittix> bah
[10:53] <Laney> schoolboy error
[10:53] <Laney> shorts + t-shirt to work
[10:53] <Laney> and now it's cold :'(
[10:55] <oimon> lol
[10:55] <oimon> yesterday i wore 4 layers and had the opposite problem
[11:00] <oimon> redhat just released a glibc update that crashes evolution when sending mail :S
[11:02] <shauno> working as intended!
[11:02] <oimon> reported 5 april, no fix yet
[11:11] <davmor2> morning all
[11:15] <oimon> ali1234: you there? i had some info regarding testing of the gvfs problem
[11:16] <smittix> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jockey/+bug/751714
[11:17] <smittix> Submitted that bug and got a reply saying it was a duplicate of another - The bug that it was supposed to be a duplicate of doesnt exist :/
[11:17] <popey> it probably does
[11:17] <davmor2> morning all
[11:17] <popey> it's probably a private bug
[11:17] <popey> bug 749660
[11:17] <smittix> ahh ok
[11:18] <oimon> smittix: crash reports are usually marked private by default in case of private info. then they are made public afterwards
[11:19] <Laney> i made it public for you
[11:19] <Laney> ♥
[11:19] <smittix> Ahh thanks :
[11:19] <popey> bah
[11:20] <PalaPad_> Yay on way home for 1st time in a week :)
[11:20] <smittix> what's up popey ?
[11:20] <PalaPad_> Hey popes
[11:20] <smittix> Now to see if FGLRX works.
[11:21] <popey> smittix: i was trying to explain the issue you have to a launchpad developer
[11:21] <popey> with whom I have discussed private bugs in the past
[11:21] <popey> and how _people_ making public bugs dupes of private bugs is annoying
[11:21] <popey> apport retracing doing that is even more annoying
[11:21] <popey> but now Laney has made it public, you can't see the annoyance as easily
[11:22] <smittix> I understand
[11:22] <Laney> it's not hard to understand the annoyance conceptually
[11:22] <popey> sure, and the comments make it clear
[11:23] <oimon> there's an easy solution..instead of "bug number doesn't exist", LP should say, this is a private bug
[11:24] <oimon> it's just a papercut though, LP is a squillion times better than any other bug tracker out there though
[11:25] <Laney> I have a soft spot for the BTS, but maybe I like baroque email-driven interfaces
[11:32] <popey> oimon: actually it did used to say "private bug" but the lp developers saw that as a security risk
[11:32] <popey> so they deliberately made launchpad say "not found" for bugs which are private
[11:32] <oimon> hmm
[11:32] <shauno> are bugs numbered sequentially?
[11:33] <popey> yes
[11:33] <shauno> and getting deleted isn't a common case.  they get closed with a reason.  so if one is missing from sequence, it's probably private :)
[11:33] <popey> yup
[11:34] <davmor2> shauno: it's safe to assume that than anything else :)
[11:35] <oimon> a missing bug is a private one 99 times out of 100 , but it's not allowed to say so definitively. hmmm
[11:36] <Laney> well, that and Launchpad allowed one to be marked as a duplicate of the other
[11:36] <Laney> referential integrity says that it must exist
[11:37] <oimon> that sounds like a solution dreamed up by the consultants my employer is currently using
[11:51] <smittix> Weird, Fresh install of natty and FGLRX works fine
[11:52] <smittix> and it's allowing me to use that alternative route
[11:56] <oimon> banshee decided to play the machinarium soundtrack to me, it's a free download. it's actually rather good
[11:56] <directhex> i like the world of goo soundtrack
[11:57] <directhex> which is also free
[11:57] <imexil> Hi, does anybody know how to REPLACE the "Chat client" entry in the notification area of Natty so that pidgin is always started instead of empathy (it happens that I click simply on the chat entry instead of the pidgin entry and then the awful empathy is started)
[11:57] <oimon> yeah, i have that too
[12:00] <oimon> anyone know how to take screenshots of iphone or android screens?
[12:01] <bigcalm> Haha, that was silly. My home grown url shortener service just shortened (in tweetdeck) a pre-shortened URL from the same service. I should fix that.
[12:02] <shauno> oimon: for iphone, hold the home button, and click the top (sleep) button
[12:02] <shauno> (home won't act until you release it)
[12:02] <oimon> shauno: thanks.
[12:03] <shauno> you should get the same sound & animation as when you take a photo, and it'll end up the same place a photo would
[12:06] <oimon> imexil: i'm a pidgin user on lucid an never got it working either :(
[12:06] <directhex> android i use ddvm
[12:06] <directhex> from the android sdk
[12:06] <directhex> sorry, ddms
[12:06] <oimon> directhex: you install that on your pc or phone?
[12:07] <oimon> never used the sdk
[12:07] <directhex> ddms is the android debugger. you install it on your pc, and enable usb debugging on your phone
[12:07] <BigRedS> oimon: I've only done it through aPC
[12:08]  * oimon starts reading about the SDK
[12:08] <directhex> http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2008/10/22/taking-screenshots-on-an-android-based-phone/
[12:09] <oimon> many thx
[12:09] <popey> madness
[12:09] <popey> why did google make it so hard to take a screenshot?
[12:10] <davmor2> popey: who needs to take a screenshot of their phone?
[12:10] <oimon> ME!
[12:10] <popey> i do, regularly
[12:10] <oimon> lots of apps in the market , for rooted phones only
[12:10] <MartijnVdS> popey: probably to make it harder for mobile viruses (or something) to take repeated screenshots while entering a password or something
[12:10] <davmor2> popey: I'm guessing we are the exception to the rule
[12:10] <MartijnVdS> popey: "another vector blocked"
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> s/virus/any kind of malware/ really
[12:11] <popey> it doesnt have to be exposed as an API
[12:11] <davmor2> popey: you think that is hard try taking a quick screenshot in Windows
[12:11] <imexil> oimon: Too bad but thanks
[12:11] <shauno> if your screen is flashing and playing the camera sound when you're entering a password, alarm bell
[12:11] <popey> davmor2: no, i dont believe we are exceptions
[12:11] <shauno> if your password is on screen in a format that's capturable by screenshot, alarm bell :p
[12:12] <popey> I frequently see twitpics of people's phones
[12:12] <oimon> it shows the letter you are typing as you type
[12:12] <popey> the fact that its just two buttons to press on an iphone makes it easy
[12:12] <popey> so people do it
[12:12] <oimon> ****r
[12:12] <popey> and the screen flashes so you know when its happening
[12:12] <shauno> oimon: yeah, but it's really not a subtle effect.  it flashes like when you take a photo
[12:12] <shauno> if it's flashing away like paparazi, you'll notice
[12:13] <popey> interestingly you can take a screenshot on an iphone when it's locked
[12:13] <popey> you could DDOS the phone by filling it up
[12:13] <davmor2> popey: So you're average user want to regularly take screenshots of their phone?  Funny I've never heard anyone say that in a phone shop, or the lug, or friends and family, or see it a lot online....
[12:13] <popey> thats not what i said
[12:13] <popey> hey ho, I'm not going to argue the toss about it
[12:14] <popey> fact is its easy on iphone and hard/impossible on stock android
[12:14] <shauno> I saw more screenshots than I'd ever want to during twitter's *cough*bar controversy :/
[12:14] <popey> heh, yeah
[12:15] <directhex> android's security model makes taking screenshots HARD.
[12:15] <davmor2> popey: Sorry couldn't resist.  My point was if we are the minority that want to take screenshots then we become the exception to the rule rather than the rule.  I am however surprised that some enterprising sole hasn't seen it as a flaw in the system and create a screenshot tool for android.
[12:15] <popey> there are tools for android
[12:15] <popey> they require root
[12:16] <oimon> i'm creating a tutorial for users to setup activesync
[12:16] <popey> its not about rules and exceptions to rules
[12:16] <popey> fact is people use devices in different ways
[12:16] <shauno> I don't believe it's easy in ios.  it's not a public api.  apps don't have simultaneous access to the screen.  your app can't screenshot mine.
[12:17] <davmor2> popey: need to talk to X (or whatever framebuffer they use) I guess and root is the only user that can?
[12:17] <MartijnVdS> oimon: set it up so it randomly wipes the boss' phone :)
[12:17] <popey> davmor2: i have no idea about the technical details
[12:17] <oimon> i am the boss :(
[12:17] <popey> just that it doesnt work
[12:17] <popey> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=iphone%20screenshot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1130&bih=613
[12:17] <MartijnVdS> oimon: ok someone you don't like then
[12:17] <popey> lots of people take screenshots
[12:18] <popey> i do not believe that counts as "exception"
[12:18] <smittix> I use Munch on Blackberry
[12:18] <oimon> popey: they takes them because they can. android users can't so they don't. i agree that it's dumb though
[12:19] <popey> they take them because they need to
[12:19] <shauno> I think the most telling thing, is what this would read like the other way around
[12:19] <popey> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=android%20screenshot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1130&bih=613
[12:20] <popey> almost all taken with the dev kit
[12:20] <popey> and using the sdk is massively niche
[12:21] <shauno> if android made it easy and apple made it dev-only, it'd be the oss vs imperial march  :p
[12:21]  * oimon wonders if it is rasied as a bug/feature request  somehwere
[12:21] <directhex> yes, but you need to wait 90-120 days to see it
[12:22] <oimon> yay managed my first screen capture :P
[12:22] <oimon> easy when you know how COUGH SPLUTTER* *$&*"
[12:26] <shauno> vaguely related, but possibly more interesting, atari released their '100 greatest hits' on ios last night.  well worth a look if you have a freedom hating handset and a retro bias (12eur for all 100)
[12:26] <oimon> i like how you can perform a screen capture while touching a menu on the screen to highlight it
[12:26] <shauno> this has made my morning much more noisy :)
[12:27] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Laura Czajkowski] PRE Ordering Natty Narwhal CDs - http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/04/07/pre-ordering-natty-narwhal-cds/
[12:27] <Mez> andylockran: ?
[12:28] <Mez> andylockran: ekey stuff?
[12:37]  * oimon thinks the installer also needs a button for "bring out the gimp" - who doesn't have it installed, after all?
[12:37] <shauno> o/
[12:38] <dwatkins> but the gimp's sleeping
[12:39] <MooDoo> ooo how many cd's is this loco ordering :D
[12:40]  * BigRedS doesn't install the gimp
[12:40] <oimon> BigRedS: there's always one isn't there :P
[12:40] <BigRedS> haha
[12:41] <shauno> oimon: two!
[12:41]  * MooDoo installs photoshop :p
[12:41] <BigRedS> I do always forget that I need to install vim, too. Why isn't that shipped by default?
[12:41] <oimon> vim-tiny sucks
[12:41] <shauno> because $mymom doesn't use vim   *ducks*
[12:41] <oimon> so does that nano program
[12:42] <BigRedS> Hah. Every time I use nano I get warnings about unexpected ':w's
[12:42] <oimon> shauno: if a son is performing remote support for mumbuntu he might want it tho
[12:42] <shauno> actually, I dread to think what my mom uses.  last time I saw her, she was still on mandake  (and it was still called mandrake)
[12:42] <BigRedS> shauno: your mum's an emacs user? *shudders*
[12:42] <oimon> just got rid of the last few madrake machines here too
[12:43] <oimon> security updates stopped a long time ago
[12:43] <directhex> the gimp is overkill for most of what i do
[12:43] <directhex> i should get into the habit of using pinta
[12:43] <shauno> I don't do mom support :/
[12:43] <shauno> I'll support her PC when she stops marrying windows admins.
[12:44] <MooDoo> shauno: lol
[12:44] <oimon> directhex: but necessary for blurring out bits and cropping/cloning tho?
[12:44] <shauno> they're freaking impossible to clean up after
[12:44] <directhex> oimon, no, that's the point, gimp is overkill for those things
[12:44] <gord> sigh, my landlord thinks instant messengers are email - doesn't understand the difference - just thinks i'm emailing back really quickly
[12:44] <oimon> directhex: i didn't think there was an inbetween paintshoppro in the repo's though?
[12:45] <popey> 12:42:34 < oimon> shauno: if a son is performing remote support for mumbuntu he might want it tho
[12:45] <popey> nope
[12:45] <popey> :)
[12:45] <directhex> oimon, pinta is partly based on paint.net, which is well regarded in that area
[12:45] <oimon> directhex: in the repos?
[12:45] <shauno> Dear gord.  I found your last letter quite amusing.  I hope that works out for you without too much insanity.  regards, shauno
[12:45] <gord> shauno, yeah pretty much spot on
[12:45] <MooDoo> paint.net isn't in the repos i don't think, i think it works via wine though
[12:45] <directhex> oimon, yeah
[12:46] <oimon> directhex: i'm on lucid..must be a new appearance
[12:46] <shauno> paint.net isn't .. .net?
[12:46] <directhex>      pinta | 0.4+dfsg-2 | maverick/universe | source, all
[12:46] <directhex>      pinta |      0.6-1 | natty/universe | source, all
[12:47] <oimon> !info pinta lucid
[12:47] <oimon> !info pinta
[12:47] <gord> hrm this reminds me, i should find some time to get shotwell doing some basic image editing, cropping, - already does colour adjusting but eh not enough
[12:47] <MooDoo> shauno: http://www.getpaint.net/
[12:47] <directhex> paint.net doesn't run in wine.
[12:47] <oimon> gord: would love for shotwell to gain feature parity with picasa
[12:48] <AlanBell> MooDoo: I have placed the order, it is a standard pack 250 Ubuntu, 50 Kubuntu, 50 Server
[12:48] <MooDoo> oimon: /me would like a ppa setup for fedora that ubuntu has :)
[12:48] <oimon> anyone used krita?
[12:48] <MartijnVdS> Sounds like a KDE app
[12:49] <davmor2> oimon: what are you after?
[12:49] <MooDoo> AlanBell: awesome, and you distribute to people who want some or are having a meetup/event?
[12:49] <MooDoo> davmor2: we prodded czajkowski lately?
[12:49] <AlanBell> MooDoo: basically
[12:49] <oimon> davmor2: i proposed a motion that most users have gimp installed. shauno and others countered that motion, and directhex told me that pinta is in repos nowadays...then we were just chatting
[12:50] <davmor2> MooDoo: czajkowski no fun at the moment dosed up on pain killers so doesn't notice
[12:50] <MooDoo> davmor2: ah ok, i'll leave czajkowski alone then [for the moment]
[12:52] <shauno> oimon: I'm not most users.  I don't have an ubuntu machine with Xorg on it :p
[12:53] <shauno> (which I consider a valid use-case, but not a good model for the default install)
[12:53] <oimon> who are most users nowadays though anyway?
[12:53] <oimon> probably too varied to guess
[12:54] <shauno> I think, in a nutshell, I'd categorize them as 'facebook users'.
[12:55] <oimon> facebook is the internet
[12:55] <shauno> and before you yell at me for it, remember irc users aren't $mostusers :p
[12:55] <oimon> for a lot of schoolkids on my train
[12:56] <dogmatic69> oimon: you trying to imply there is more to the internet than fb?
[12:57] <shauno> I think my model of what an average user is now, is based purely around how I see my wife using the computer.
[12:57] <oimon> zawinksi's law- Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.
[12:57] <shauno> gmail's for talking to old people, safari's for buying things, and "for everything else, there's facebook"
[12:58] <oimon> friends reunited really missed the boat on that one didn' tthey?
[12:59] <shauno> I still can't convince her to install updates, because they get in the way :/
[12:59] <davmor2> oimon: Again depends what you want to use it for.  For Photo enhancement shotwell, f-spot, digikam are all up to the general tasks that a user would need for more advanced stuff there is the gimp, inkscape, krita and the like
[13:00] <oimon> davmor2: my wife and I find picasa the sweet spot for average photo touching up. shotwell rather lacking
[13:00] <MooDoo> oimon: i just use pcassa for backin up to google
[13:01] <davmor2> oimon: shotwell is early in it development to be fair but I find it covers most of my needs quite happily
[13:02] <shauno> HazRPG1: fail
[13:02] <Hazmaster> shauno: that was my pc booking back in again
[13:03] <Hazmaster> don't know why but while trying to sort all this out, my ipv6 at home failed
[13:03] <shauno> where I come from, we call that sods' law :)
[13:03] <Hazmaster> indeed
[13:03] <Hazmaster> sod has a lot to answer for in my life
[13:04] <dogmatic69> running ff4, every time i close it and open it all plugins are gone and i have to reinstall them
[13:04] <dogmatic69> anyone see that happen before?
[13:04] <shauno> food times
[13:31] <shauno> popey: I tried to DoS my phone with screenshots.  turns out they're rate limited, and I got bored/frustrated quickly.
[13:32] <popey> heh
[13:32] <shauno> not saying it can't be done, just that I have no stamina :)
[13:33] <popey> and at 600K/shot it takes a long while to fill a 32GB phone
[13:33] <shauno> maybe try again tonight when I can pre-stuff it with songs first
[13:33] <shauno> curious to see what effect it'll have, because I know the OS is on a different partition to appdata.  so it should be awkward but not breaking.  I hope.
[13:36] <gord> you can prolly send things to your phone faster than it can write to the storage, thats why its limiting
[13:37] <shauno> I can't tell if it's intentional or not.  it just got irritating enough that I decided it was the wrong way to spend my lunch break
[13:38] <HazRPG> argh silly thing
[13:39] <dogmatic69> HazRPG: having fun with the internet?
[13:39] <HazRPG> dogmatic69: having fun with ipv6!
[13:39] <dogmatic69> ah
[13:39] <dogmatic69> i tried ping ::1 the other day
[13:40] <dogmatic69> did not like it
[13:40] <HazRPG> :P
[13:40] <shauno> surfing has always had this problem.  that bit where you try to hop up and land both feet at once, is really bad for your modem :/
[13:40] <HazRPG> probably because your meant to type ping6 ::1
[13:40] <dogmatic69> ah
[13:40] <HazRPG> likewise you have traceroute6 etc
[13:40] <HazRPG> just add 6 at the end of usual stuff
[13:41] <dogmatic69> i see
[13:41] <shauno> I can't wait for that to go away :/
[13:41] <shauno> traceroute6 but mtr -6.  ugh.
[13:41] <dogmatic69> is it just me or is ::1 faster than 127.0.0.1
[13:42] <shauno> they're so so here
[13:42] <BigRedS> How frequently do you traceroute to localhost?
[13:42] <shauno> v4; rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.059/0.061/0.065/0.006 ms
[13:42] <shauno> v6; rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.049/0.059/0.066/0.009 ms
[13:42] <dogmatic69> 0.03 vs 0.05
[13:44] <shauno> I think traceroute on a tunnel is a bit sketchy, because despite what it returns, you to your tunnel broker isn't 1 hop
[13:45] <HazRPG> man you've gotta be kidding, did I seriously just get knocked off again >_<
[13:50] <gord> i have the penny crayon theme music in my head and i can *not* get rid of it
[13:52] <shauno> you could alway fight fire with fire.  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Hot_Butter_-_Popcorn.ogg  :D
[13:52] <dogmatic69> HazRPG: are u alsp neuro? if not talk to him, he seems to have it :D
[13:52] <Seeker`> MattJ: i am realistic about my programming abulity :P
[13:53] <shauno> that's not a bad observation.  hrmmm!
[13:53] <HazRPG> gord: heh what a random song to get in your head! ... also, dag-nabit! You've got me singing it now >_<
[13:53] <HazRPG> dogmatic69: neuro? No I'm not him... he seems to have what?
[13:54] <dogmatic69> shauno: flash back to dos4.something and digdug \o/
[13:54] <dogmatic69> HazRPG:  neuro (~neuro@2001:470:1f09:4b7:20c:29ff:fec2:f24f) has joined #ubuntu-uk
[13:54] <shauno> HazRPG: his host is also 2001:470: and he can't sit still either
[13:55] <HazRPG> oh right, so it could be the tunnel's fault not ours?
[13:55] <shauno> I closed my laptop before I came to work, so I can't poke my end :(
[13:55] <HazRPG> shauno: is yours not a 2001:470?
[13:55] <HazRPG> ah
[13:55] <Myrtti> voted \o/
[13:56] <dogmatic69> HazRPG: relevant? http://mailman.isi.edu/pipermail/6bone/2002-August/006010.html
[13:56] <gord> what was that one about the loch ness monsters...
[13:57] <gord> ah family ness
[13:57] <gord> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg519tvZcv4
[13:57] <shauno> I'd assume he.net had fixed their path since 2002
[14:00] <HazRPG> dogmatic69: it might be, but that's way too much techno-bable for me to digest at the moment lol
[14:00] <HazRPG> also yeah what shauno said ^^
[14:01] <ivanka> AlanBell: do you have a bug report for that keyboard
[14:02] <AlanBell> bug 751891
[14:05] <oimon> student shop is closed until may - am missing my cornetto supply in this weather :(
[14:13] <shauno> one of these days, when I really feel like hurting myself, I'm curious to see how I'd get ptppd handing out v6 addresses to vpn clients
[14:15] <AlanBell> !ping
[14:15] <AlanBell> ivanka: bug 751891
[14:16] <ivanka> AlanBell: thanks
[15:17] <oimon> gnome3 seems to be quite popular on planet gnome today
[15:19] <gord> well of course
[15:19] <oimon> somebody likes it then ;)
[15:19] <DJones> oimon: Its the same in #ubuntu, I've lost count of the number of "How do I install gnome 3" questions, or whether natty will come with gnome 3
[15:20] <Laney> how well does the PPA work?
[15:20] <oimon> that's because the screenshots look nice and it's not obvious from them that gnome shell is , well, ...there's stuff missing :)
[15:22] <Tommeh> Laney: with Natty beta, it's .. Entertaining :)
[15:23] <Tommeh> But I am currently using it.
[15:23] <Laney> worse than you get from upstream?
[15:23] <Tommeh> However most my my 'aptitude dist-upgrade' attempts want to nuke half of my install
[15:23] <Tommeh> I dunno, never tried anything other than the PPA
[15:23] <DJones> Tommeh: I like the way there's a comment that unity and gnome 3 are incompatible and there's no way back after using the ppa for gnome 3
[15:23] <oimon> i built from scratch a few weeks ago
[15:24] <Tommeh> DJones: I must've missed that bit :)
[15:24] <oimon> you had to move some stuff out of the way.. /usr/lib/ stuff  IIRC
[15:24] <Tommeh> Not opposed to a re-install anyway
[15:24] <Tommeh> Weee 144 upgrades
[15:25] <Tommeh> At least there aren't any conflicts today :)
[15:25] <Tommeh> I left last night with it trying to remove ubuntu-desktop or gnome-shell, heh
[15:28] <oimon> just cranking up the liveCD of gnome3 to check it out again
[15:29] <scoundrel50> hi, got a problem, was chatting on e-mail group about new laptop and partitioning to add ubuntu. Trying that now, and got to the part where it talks about Allocate Drive space, and lost. Can somebody help please? I have no idea what I need to do from here.
[15:31] <scoundrel50> What do I choose for the partition?
[15:33] <BigRedS> scoundrel50: What do you mean 'lost'?
[15:34] <scoundrel50> well, its got the Allocate Drive Space page up, and there are options, and a drop down menu, I dont know what I need to choose to add Ubuntu to.
[15:34] <BigRedS> Ah, I see
[15:34] <BigRedS> What are you aiming to end up with?
[15:34] <scoundrel50> want to put Ubuntu on half the partion
[15:35] <scoundrel50> I have three options
[15:35] <scoundrel50> there is /dev/sda1/2/3/
[15:35] <scoundrel50> then there is the drop down menu
[15:35] <scoundrel50> what do I choose
[15:36] <BigRedS> you *probably* want the option that's words to teh effect of "resize what's there and use the new space"
[15:36] <BigRedS> it wont use half a partition, it will shrink one (or two) partitions, and create a new one in the resulting empty space
[15:37] <andylockran> hey guys
[15:37] <andylockran> does anyone know if webalizer can parse the %D in the apache log format (showing response time of the server in microseconds)
[15:38] <scoundrel50> oh, on that page, the only options I have are 1...Erase and use entire disc and 2....Specify partitions manually
[15:39] <scoundrel50> so I chose the second choice as I dont want to loose windows
[15:39] <justin__> help any know about httrack i am in belize and lost
[15:40] <BigRedS> scoundrel50: oh. I'm sure there used to be a nicer one. Does the 'specify partitions manually' page not offer somethign like that?
[15:40] <scoundrel50> No
[15:41] <scoundrel50> just took a picture to show what options i have will try to upload it now
[15:42] <BigRedS> scoundrel50: Hm. It should look like this: #
[15:42] <BigRedS> http://bit.ly/giCMV0
[15:42]  * BigRedS curses at bit.ly
[15:43] <scoundrel50> nope, dont get top option
[15:43] <justin__> should i be asking somwere elese if so where?
[15:44] <popey> justin__: ask your question
[15:44] <popey> scoundrel50: open a terminal, type "sudo apt-get install pastebinit", then once that's installed, type "sudo fdisk -l | pastebinit"
[15:44] <popey> this will give you a url you can give us
[15:44] <popey> which will let us see the partitions
[15:44] <popey> I suspect it's been delivered with 4 partitions all of which are primary
[15:45] <justin__> i have triedd using httrack to copy chordie .com but it seems al i have is a bunch of .tmp files that wont show coerctly and the progect was .5 g
[15:45] <scoundrel50> ok, just cancelled installation, and got back to Ubuntu desktop
[15:45] <popey> justin__: whats the goal?
[15:46] <justin__> to  search all sons while offline
[15:46] <justin__> songs
[15:46] <popey> ahh
[15:46] <popey> wget -m http://chordie.com/
[15:46] <popey> ?
[15:46] <popey> its not a nice thing to do though
[15:47] <popey> scoundrel50: let us know if you get a problem with those instructions
[15:47] <scoundrel50> says unable to locate package pastebinit
[15:47] <justin__> i am in belize an our two isp arent reliable
[15:47] <scoundrel50> Running Ubuntu on live disc now
[15:48] <popey> scoundrel50: odd
[15:48] <popey> scoundrel50: is it online?
[15:48] <scoundrel50> yes
[15:48] <popey> justin__: sure, its still not nice :)
[15:48] <justin__> i haven tried wget you think it down loand the web site?
[15:48] <popey> scoundrel50: sudo apt-get update
[15:48] <scoundrel50> give me a sec
[15:48] <justin__> i know but nieter is blokin allvoip's
[15:48] <directhex> popey, online = web browser = copypaste
[15:48] <scoundrel50> that will add updates to the live disc?
[15:48] <justin__> but thats is waht tere doing
[15:49] <popey> scoundrel50: no, just in memory
[15:49] <justin__> thank you for help
[15:49] <popey> scoundrel50: sudo apt-get update, then sudo apt-get install pastebinit
[15:50] <scoundrel50> nope, still get that message
[15:50] <Azelphur> Has anyone seen the minimum hardware requirements for Windows Phone 7? it's hilarious :p
[15:50] <popey> ah well
[15:50] <popey> scoundrel50: in a terminal type "sudo fdisk -l"
[15:51] <popey> then go to paste.ubuntu.com in a browser and paste the result of the fdisk in there
[15:51] <scoundrel50> ok, doing that now
[15:53] <scoundrel50> ok, that worked
[15:53] <scoundrel50> http://paste.ubuntu.com/590804
[15:54] <popey> how odd
[15:54] <scoundrel50> that should give you results of sudo fdisk -l
[15:54] <popey> ok, so you could use gparted on the live cd to reduce the size of sda3
[15:54] <scoundrel50> what is odd?
[15:55] <popey> never mind, I'd use gparted to resize down sda3
[15:55] <directhex> that looks like a fairly sane partition table, by some standards
[15:55] <popey> yup
[15:56] <scoundrel50> installing gparted now
[15:56] <popey> you dont need to
[15:56] <popey> its on the live cd
[15:56] <Hazmaster> :/
[15:56] <Hazmaster> getting sick of my ipv6 pipe breaking
[15:56] <oimon> lol..answer from redhat concerning a bug.."Please try valgrind."
[15:56] <scoundrel50> how do I reduce size of sda3
[15:56] <Hazmaster> i caught pidgin saying "Lost connection with server: Broken pipe"
[15:57] <popey> scoundrel50: http://popey.blip.tv/file/2384259/
[15:57] <popey> watch that video
[15:57] <popey> it shows how to move a partition, but gives you an idea
[15:57] <shauno> Hazmaster: connect to chat.freenode for a while then
[15:57] <popey> you basically click sda3 and there's a resize option in the menu
[15:57] <Hazmaster> shauno: I'm using my vps on irssi at the moment :)
[16:01] <oimon> arggh what's the truth about laptop/phone batteries except for the fact that they are lame? http://uk.lifehacker.com/5789794/avoid-frequent-discharges-to-extend-your-phone-or-laptops-battery-life
[16:02] <scoundrel50> do I do that before I install, I have gparted open, and sda3 has a red alarm thing next to it
[16:02] <davmor2> MOO!
[16:02] <popey> scoundrel50: can you take a screenshot and upload to imgur?
[16:04] <Azelphur> oimon: I knew that, with smartphones it's best to charge little and often :)
[16:04] <Azelphur> and most laptops too I think
[16:04] <oimon> Azelphur: hmm
[16:04] <scoundrel50> just took screen shot what is imgur?
[16:04] <oimon> i dunno what to believe
[16:04] <Azelphur> scoundrel50: http://imgur.com/
[16:04] <Azelphur> oimon: that's where religion comes in
[16:04]  * Azelphur runs
[16:05] <oimon> Azelphur: i can see you hiding behind popey
[16:05] <Azelphur> lol
[16:05] <oimon> praying over my batteries might help though
[16:05] <Azelphur> indeed
[16:07] <scoundrel50> http://imgur.com/OoSe3
[16:08] <scoundrel50> there is the screenshot
[16:09] <scoundrel50> Its not allowing me to resize, at least I cant work it out. Nothing is moving.
[16:10] <moreati> scoundrel50: if the NTFS partition wasn't cleanly unmounted, gparted won't touch it. Reboot into Windows, perform a scandisk and a defrag, then make sure you've performed a clean shutdown
[16:10] <scoundrel50> ok, will be back in a while after the defrag
[16:10] <moreati> or copy the data off to another disk, and wipe that partition
[16:11] <DJones> scoundrel50: I would also suggest you backup anything that you don't want to lose before you come out of windows
[16:11] <moreati> indeed, always backup before doing anything with partitions
[16:12] <scoundrel50> can I just remove the disc then reboot or closwee down then remove disc?
[16:12] <oimon> opening a terminal app (or other favourite app) from a clean install shouldn't take more than 2 clicks. on gnome shell it takes 3 but involves a lot of jumping through hoops!
[16:13] <oimon> the good news is there is no global menu, the bad news is the title bar is MASSIVE
[16:13] <DJones> Must admit that I was pleasantly surprised on my last install that Windows 7 has a way of resizing a partition built in to free up space, rather than having to use gparted to resize
[16:13] <oimon> DJones: even ext3?
[16:13] <DJones> scoundrel50: I'd just close down and remove the disk
[16:14] <DJones> oimon: Don't think so, just its own ntfs partitions
[16:14] <dogmatic69> DJones: i would not trust it though
[16:14] <DJones> dogmatic69: It worked for me, I think that was the surprise
[16:14] <oimon> dogmatic69: exactly, if it doesn't understand non windows stuff then you can't trust it
[16:14] <oimon> due to risk of overwriting
[16:16] <oimon> 7.4 earthquake off japan https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/56004704790003712#
[16:16] <DJones> oimon: I'm just as worried when I use gparted to resize an ntfs partition
[16:20] <scoundrel50> scan disc done, and now diskfrag started
[16:22] <DJones> scoundrel50: Are you IRC'ing from the same machine you're running the scandisk & install on, or is that a seperate machine
[16:23] <scoundrel50> seperate machine
[16:24] <DJones> scoundrel50: Right, is the other machine connected to the internet?
[16:24] <scoundrel50> this o0ne is just about working, I cant update on it, so once I get the new machine sorted, if I can, this one is being thrown out.
[16:24] <scoundrel50> yes
[16:24] <gpd> how are ppl finding unity in natty beta?
[16:25] <BigRedS> I think they log on and it's just there
[16:25] <gpd> focus follows mouse just doesn't work well.
[16:25] <DJones> scoundrel50: No worries, with you not going offline when you rebooted the other machine, I just wondered whether it hadn't been connected to the internet and that was why you hadn't been able to install pastebinit earlier
[16:26] <gpd> alt-tab becomes ctrl-alt-tab... lots to learn it seems
[16:27] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Phil Bull] GNOME 3; User Help hackfest - http://philbull.livejournal.com/59641.html
[16:30] <scoundrel50> On the live disc I was able to update and connect to Firefox and use ubuntu pastebin, but for some reson it couldnt find pastebinit, dont know why.
[16:30] <scoundrel50> Going to take a long time for defrag, only 7% done so far
[16:32] <scoundrel50> I know its low end for some people, but this has to be the best laptop I have have used, its really fast. I am still getting used to W7, only ever got to XP, so m,issed out on Vista.
[16:32] <scoundrel50> It was quite cheap too.
[16:33] <diplo> scoundrel50, what are you using for defrag ? Windows built in one ?
[16:34] <diplo> If so google defraggler, Free and it's quicker and does a better job imo
[16:34] <scoundrel50> yes
[16:34] <directhex> it doesn't make much difference. NTFS is inherently screwed for fragmentation
[16:35] <directhex> unless a defragger organizes by mtime, it's doomed to fail
[16:35] <scoundrel50> Oh, I might look into that. I only got this pc a couple of days ago. Hate using windows, only use it for things like iPhone updates.
[16:35] <diplo> Yup, just i found it was quicker and seemed to make a difference.
[16:37] <Azelphur> M7.4 after shock just off the coast of Japan :(
[16:38] <scoundrel50> ok, finiswhed defrag, so should I start the partition process again? Reboot with disc in?
[16:41] <brobostigon> good afternoon everyone.
[16:41] <bigcalm> Morning
[16:41] <brobostigon> hi bigcalm
[16:41]  * brobostigon shouts and screams in frustration atthe top of his voice.
[16:42] <oimon> brobostigon: gnome shell? :P
[16:42] <oimon> sorry just trolling/joking :)
[16:43] <brobostigon> oimon: several things, including real life and dpkg errors.
[16:43] <brobostigon> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
[16:43] <bigcalm> brobostigon: listen to http://absolute80s.com/ it'll make your life so much better :)
[16:44] <davmor2> brobostigon: apt-get instal -f
[16:44] <oimon> got my first crash in gnome3 after 5 mins of using the livecd
[16:44] <brobostigon> davmor2: done, same error.
[16:45] <bigcalm> With jQuery, can you detect if an element currently has scrollbars?
[16:45] <brobostigon> bigcalm: i wil have a look, thanks,
[16:45] <davmor2> brobostigon: what on?
[16:46] <brobostigon> davmor2: apt-get install -f
[16:47] <scoundrel50> Ok, got to Allocate Drive space and now have that third option, Install alongside other operating systems, click on that?
[16:47] <davmor2> brobostigon: I meant natty or maverick,  is it from a dist-upgrade or a upgrade?  If it's natty then it might be between package uploads and so won't install till the missing bit is available
[16:48] <brobostigon> davmor2: natty, upgrade,
[16:49] <davmor2> brobostigon: might be between packages,  give it an hour and do sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -f  hopefully that will fix everything
[16:50] <bigcalm> Can one get less to make use of the colour scheme set in vim?
[16:50] <davmor2> bigcalm: just forward into vim :D
[16:51] <brobostigon> davmor2: it broke grub, an initrd is missing.
[16:51] <scoundrel50> yay, got further this time, seems to be installing
[16:51] <scoundrel50> at nleast its copying files, further than it got last time
[16:51] <davmor2> brobostigon: yeap there was an issue with it that was cause the cds to fail to build so they got respun
[16:52] <brobostigon> davmor2: i just ran update-grub again, so atleast grub will find kernels,
[16:53] <scoundrel50> ok, one question, do these installs differ depending on your computer? There are things being installed that I havent seen before.
[16:59] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: it does vary, yes, for example, i have gnome-shell/gnome3, and the dependencies of it changing, with updates, so that is possible.
[17:00] <scoundrel50> Oh, what is the difference? Is that for touch screen or something similar?
[17:01] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: it is an update to gnome2 and its apps, and WM etc.
[17:01] <scoundrel50> Its now installing system, I dont know what happened the first time, but it seems we are almost finished instlling this time.
[17:01] <scoundrel50> oh right.
[17:02] <scoundrel50> restarting computer
[17:02] <DJones> scoundrel50: gnome 3 might be included in 11.10 when it gets released in the autumn, but from what I've read, its not compatible with Unity in 11.04
[17:04] <scoundrel50> Oh right, os its not ready for another two releases, rebooting, logging in.
[17:04] <scoundrel50> Yay
[17:04] <scoundrel50> now I have to update
[17:04] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: i am running gnome-shell/gnome3 mostly successfully here in natty, with gnome3-team ppa.
[17:05] <scoundrel50> What is the difference,
[17:07] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: gnome3  is simplyput, updates to gnome2, in every way.
[17:08] <gord> eh i wouldn't say in every way. most of the applications are basically the same
[17:08] <gord> the backend code has changed a lot however
[17:08] <gord> gsettings, gdbus are of note
[17:08] <scoundrel50> Oh right, I am just on 10.10 at the moment, I am looking forward to Natty, to see what changes are made with that.
[17:09] <brobostigon> gord: fair point, yes.
[17:09] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: in natty, gnome2 is replaced with unity.
[17:09] <scoundrel50> I am hoping I can get my sharing working with this install. I managed to get the windows sharing working straight away, and copied everything off this computer via sharing yesterday.
[17:12] <scoundrel50> got 307 mb of updates to do
[17:17] <scoundrel50> does Ubuntu need defraging? if so how?
[17:18] <dogmatic69> no
[17:18] <dogmatic69> its not fat
[17:18] <scoundrel50> thats good to know, thanks. :)
[17:18] <DJones> !defrag
[17:21] <DJones> Thats a good explanation of why ext4 doesn't have the same fragmentation problems, the graphics explain it quite nicely
[17:21] <scoundrel50> DJones: thank you. That is really useful to know.
[17:27] <brobostigon> http://blog.geeksaresexytech.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/theinternet.jpg
[17:31] <screen-x> brobostigon: I wonder if that pic has anything to do with reality
[17:31] <scoundrel50> That has worked. Thanks everybody for your help. I really appreciate it. :) Going to check if its affected windows, and install everything I need now. So glad I got my ubuntu back.
[17:32] <brobostigon> screen-x: http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2011/04/07/happy-birthday-the-internet/
[17:32] <davmor2> scoundrel50: windows will almost certainly run chkdsk
[17:32] <scoundrel50> yeh, it did that after the first time, as well.
[17:33] <screen-x> brobostigon: yah, I meant is it anything close to the actual topoolgy of the internet
[17:33] <scoundrel50> just about to load W7 now
[17:34] <scoundrel50> its doing it now
[17:34] <ali1234> the comments on that article about fragmentation are really funny
[17:34] <brobostigon> screen-x: not a clue, i just thought the picture looked nice.
[17:34] <ali1234> funny and sad
[17:34] <scoundrel50> keeping my fingers crossed nothing is broked
[17:34] <ali1234> guy points out that the article is BS, and everyone says "u dumb, MS lover" etc
[17:35] <ali1234> then they accuse *him* of calling names
[17:35] <ali1234> then he posts the evidence that *proves* the article is BS
[17:35] <ali1234> and then they say "well why do you care it's just some article"
[17:38] <scoundrel50> W& started
[17:38] <scoundrel50> Thank you so much. :)
[17:40] <ali1234> also the follow up article is even more BS
[17:41] <ali1234> it's basically making the argument that a fragmented filesystem can be faster because you might possible want to read the fragments in the specific order they are on disc
[17:45] <shauno> online defrag is in the feature list for ext4.  so apparently the people writing the filesystems don't believe the myths.
[17:47] <ali1234> the real reason linux is less affected by fragmentation is because it generally uses lots of small files instead of one huge file
[17:47]  * screen-x stabs cpan
[17:48] <shauno> once online defrag is mainstream, we'll just conveniently forget that you previously had to convert ext3 to ext2 & use e2defrag offline  (and just hope that any extended attributes survived thru sheer luck)  :o)
[17:48] <shauno> the OS doesn't use a lot of huge files.  users do tho
[17:48] <ali1234> right
[17:49] <ali1234> but the problem for windows is basically because of the registry, a huge constantly growing (sometimes shrinking) file that all programs use all the time whenever you do anything
[17:50]  * davmor2 hands screen-x his big breaking hammer try that much more satisfaction that a quick stab
[17:50] <screen-x> davmor2: thanks :)
[17:50] <ali1234> putting the registry on it's own partition might actually be an interesting way to optimize windows... you might get more than 3 months without needing a reinstall if you do that
[17:50] <screen-x> davmor2: have you got any lecky-tape suitable for patching up perl modules?
[17:51] <davmor2> screen-x: try acme glue :D
[18:04] <brobostigon> http://www.haiku-os.org/blog/stippi/2011-04-07_deskbar_rewrite interesting read.
[18:05] <scoundrel50> something is missing, the network connections icon is missing from the top panel, how do I get it back?
[18:06] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: hit alt+f2 and nm-applet
[18:09] <scoundrel50> brobostigon: ok, that is wierd, there is a space where it is supposed to be, but no icon, but if you click on the space, the drop down menu appears.
[18:09] <scoundrel50> I tried what you said, but it didnt show the icon
[18:09] <exobuzz> i just went back to ubuntu (natty) after some time with linuxmint. not sure about some of the new features. top menu is a vertical space saver, but annoying for apps like "pidgin" which i like at the bottom right (long way to move the mouse)
[18:10] <exobuzz> im not getting a long that well with unity either (currently back on classic ubuntu)
[18:10] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: sorry then, they must have changed the way it runs with unity, try nm-applet from a terminal?
[18:11] <exobuzz> still prefer the linux mint menu etc (when it doesnt freeze/crash), but wanted to go back to a distribution with a shorter "upstream route".
[18:11] <exobuzz> anyone else got opinions on natty/unity and the other new stuff ?
[18:12]  * brobostigon prefers gnome-shell,
[18:12] <exobuzz> i watched a video of gnome-shell on youtube and although i wasnt trying it, it didn't feel like something i would like
[18:13] <exobuzz> i guess i should test it before making judgement though
[18:13] <scoundrel50> brobostigon: that is even wierder, get a warning saying .......nm-applet warning constructor(): couldnt initialise D-Bus manager.......An instance of nm-applet already running.
[18:13] <brobostigon> simply preference, better workspace management, better handling of IM via empathy. etc.
[18:14] <scoundrel50> ok, rebooted, and its now showing
[18:14] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: weird, i would track down nm-applet instances with ps, and kill them and try again, but that is quite extreme,
[18:14] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: dbus musthave been it, then.
[18:14] <exobuzz> i still find ubuntu default apps an odd choice, although pleased that f-spot is gone. not that it matterrs since you can of course install your own, but am i missing something - why empathy over pidgin for example ?
[18:14] <Myrtti> integration
[18:15] <brobostigon> thank Myrtti :)
[18:15] <exobuzz> care to elaborate ?
[18:15] <directhex> exobuzz, because libpurple is a dead end
[18:15] <exobuzz> because? :)
[18:16] <brobostigon> exobuzz: like, i can get and reply to empathy messages, without even going empathy in gnome-shell, straight from the notifications. very convieniant.
[18:16] <brobostigon> even going to*
[18:16] <directhex> exobuzz, essentially, empathy is a thin wrapper over telepathy, which is a generalized IM framework. you can have lots of apps which speak to telepathy, giving what brobostigon describes. the same is not true of pidgin. pidgin is just an app
[18:17] <brobostigon> directhex: yes, said notifications dont work with pidgin, i have tried.
[18:17] <directhex> and telepathy is pluggable, whereas pidgin isn't. all pidgin's power comes from the main pidgin lib, purple. any new telepathy service can appear, and it'' just work in consumer apps
[18:18] <directhex> e.g. SIP
[18:18] <exobuzz> ill give it a go, but when ubuntu first switched i tried it. it was buggy, and seemed to have half of the features of pidgin. perhaps they switched too early for me to appreciate it and it put me off
[18:18] <Myrtti> I'm sure there's a longer explanation in blogosphere, but it integrates well into the system. I use pidgin but I use xubuntu
[18:18] <directhex> exobuzz, switching early is important for bug fixing. remember, non-lts releases "don't matter" in this respect
[18:18] <Myrtti> well, I use both really
[18:18] <exobuzz> directhex, in my case though, that didnt work. i just uninstalled it ;-)
[18:18] <Myrtti> pidgin for work and empathy for leisure
[18:19] <exobuzz> im sure i am not alone
[18:19] <directhex> i use empathy, except on windows
[18:20] <exobuzz> also im still waiting for the right hand side of windows to be used for something. was one of mark's big arguments for moving the window gadgets.. or was it a fib to justify the decision.
[18:20] <brobostigon> empathy v.3 is miles better, most stability issues i had hae been worked out, and certain things like, blocked contacts, has a muchbetter gui.
[18:21] <scoundrel50> Can you get empathy to work with camera, stay when you want to talk to somebody on MSN, I have never been able to get the camera working on Empathy.
[18:21] <brobostigon> directhex: given you do work for the firm that partly designs empathy/telepathy, :)
[18:21] <directhex> brobostigon, yes, this is true
[18:21] <brobostigon> scoundrel50: sound and video work over xmpp in telepathy/empathy, ot tried msn yet. best ask directhex, :)
[18:22] <brobostigon> directhex: :)
[18:22] <MattJ> XMPP \o/
[18:22] <exobuzz> to be honest, id take raw functionality over some "correct framework" that isnt ready/complete
[18:22] <directhex> i like telepathy functionality. desktop sharing is neato
[18:22] <directhex> so is sharing music in banshee
[18:23] <brobostigon> exobuzz: for the things i use it for, it is ready/complete as you put it.
[18:23] <exobuzz> ive yet to make a judgement on banshee. i tried it before and preferred exaile
[18:23] <exobuzz> brobostigon, i will certainly give it another run, as it has been a while
[18:23] <scoundrel50> no wonder I couldnt get it to work then, I dont know anything about xmpp
[18:24] <brobostigon> exobuzz: i would suggest you try the gnome3 version it is much better than the gnome 2 version.
[18:24] <scoundrel50> One problem I have with this new install, sharing doesnt work. :(
[18:24] <exobuzz> does empathy have gadu gadu support? :)
[18:24] <scoundrel50> I'm too tired now, been doing this for hours, will try deal with that later. :(
[18:24] <brobostigon> exobuzz: i believe so, yes.
[18:25] <exobuzz> i just ran it and it didnt mention it on the import account screen
[18:25] <directhex> yes.
[18:25] <exobuzz> but it cant import my account then ?
[18:25] <directhex> but empathy doesn't need it, telepathy does
[18:25] <exobuzz> ok. you know what i mean :)
[18:25] <directhex> is telepathy-sunshine installed? that's the CM for gadugadu
[18:26] <exobuzz> i dont know. if i have to go out and search to get it to work, then its just lost a point against pidgin
[18:27] <brobostigon> http://www.google.com/events/io/2011/io2011.html interesting, they are going to stream googleIO live,
[18:28] <directhex> wait, i don't have sunshine either
[18:28] <willy1977> evening
[18:28] <directhex> i must be using haze
[18:29] <exobuzz> anyway, good to have the choice of course
[18:29] <directhex> telepathy-core pulls in telepathy-haze. so you definitely have gadugadu support.
[18:30] <directhex> haze is a wrapper around pidgin's libpurple, so anything pidgin supports, haze supports
[18:30] <exobuzz> ok. it didnt offer to import the gadugadu account from pidgin, so i thought to mention it
[18:33] <exobuzz> I never found a twin pane file manager I liked really. krusader being the closest
[18:34] <exobuzz> sorry just a thought dump
[18:34] <directhex> midnight commander!
[18:34] <exobuzz> ugh. no please. horrible :)
[18:34] <exobuzz> oh wait. sorry. brain glitch. mc is ok. but im talking gui one
[18:35] <MattJ> Nautilus + a tiling wm
[18:35] <exobuzz> maybe im fussy, but that won't do me also heh
[18:35] <MattJ> Though I should try Thunar again, I used to like it
[18:36]  * brobostigon doesnt mention file managers in other OS's better,as he was ignored last night.
[18:36] <exobuzz> i preferred the simplicity of thunar of nautilus as a simple file manager, but
[18:36] <dutchie> MattJ: nautilus can tile anyway
[18:36] <dutchie> try pressing F3
[18:37] <MattJ> What the...
[18:37] <exobuzz> the global top menu on natty is going to give me rsi.
[18:37] <MattJ> dutchie: Thank you :)
[18:38] <dutchie> MattJ: np :)
[18:38] <gordonjcp> I don't like that top menu thing
[18:39] <gordonjcp> and the alt-f2 run dialogue is totally broken
[18:40] <exobuzz> the thing with nautilus with an extra pane, is most of the time i would use it with a single pane, with icons, and so to switch back and forth etc, is not ideal. i guess its possible to have multiple profiles perhaps? but still. its not like dopus on the amiga ;-)
[18:40] <exobuzz> or filemaster which was nice on my a500 heh
[18:40]  * exobuzz installs "worker" for an oldschool dopus look
[18:41] <brobostigon> or, like opentracker on haiku.
[18:41] <issyl0> Evening all.
[18:41] <brobostigon> good evening issyl0
[18:42] <issyl0> How are things?
[18:42] <MattJ> Very good
[18:42]  * issyl0 needs/wants things to do, but has too much to do in real life that she can't do because she doesn't have the stuff to do it yet.  :-/
[18:42] <brobostigon> issyl0: i am not allowed to use the lagnuage to describe it here, i am sure you can imagine, and you?
[18:42] <brobostigon> language*
[18:42] <issyl0> brobostigon: Ah, right.  Yeah, I'm not bad thanks.
[18:42] <brobostigon> issyl0: :)
[18:42] <exobuzz> gordonjcp, whats broken with alt+f2 ?
[18:43] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: it just doesn't work
[18:43] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: press alt-f2, type the name of a command, hit return, doesn't launch the app
[18:43] <exobuzz> gordonjcp, i managed to launch gnome-terminal via it just now? maybe it's fixed or some path issue ?
[18:43] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: if you wait something like five seconds while all the totally pointless search crap catches up, it *might* launch
[18:44] <gordonjcp> if you can type at faster than one character per two seconds, it won't work
[18:44] <brobostigon> opentracker happens to be my favorite file manager.
[18:45] <exobuzz> if it does some autosearch perhaps that's not enabled here, as it didnt try and help me
[18:45] <gordonjcp> maybe there's a way to disable it
[18:45] <brobostigon> it isnt exclusivly a filemanager though.
[18:45] <exobuzz> gordonjcp, aah wait. is alt+f2 different on unity from classic ?
[18:45] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: I don't know, I'm using Unity
[18:45] <exobuzz> gordonjcp, i switched to classic mode, the search stuff was way slow on unity
[18:45] <exobuzz> i couldnt handle it
[18:45] <gordonjcp> yeahy
[18:46] <exobuzz> and im on a 1080p 24" monitor. i dont need massive icons that would suit a touchscreen/netbook
[18:46] <directhex> i've been considering reverting wifey's netbook to lucid
[18:46] <exobuzz> who thought it was a good idea for the same gui on both types of device? :)
[18:46] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: I don't want any icons at all
[18:46] <directhex> or maybe older. every upgrade makes her netbook worse
[18:46] <gordonjcp> they're just meaningless squares to me
[18:46] <gordonjcp> directhex: Windows XP
[18:46] <brobostigon> directhex: which model, may i ask.
[18:46] <directhex> gordonjcp, is a TERRIBLE os for a netbook
[18:46] <exobuzz> gordonjcp, id go back to classic mode then. having said that they plan to remove that in the next release right? so no more choice.
[18:46] <directhex> brobostigon, an acer aspire one
[18:47] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: well, I don't normally use Ubuntu
[18:47] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: but I need to package some stuff and test it for Ubuntu
[18:47] <exobuzz> i see. what do you normally run ?
[18:47] <brobostigon> directhex: i tried haiku on one of those the other day, and it worked heavenly, however, that isnt a viable possibility.
[18:47] <gordonjcp> so I may as well use an up-to-date version
[18:47] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: Haiku and Arch
[18:47] <exobuzz> im seriously considering going back to kde in recent weeks..
[18:47] <brobostigon> gordonjcp: :)
[18:48]  * gordonjcp never liked KDE
[18:48]  * brobostigon agreed with gordonjcp 
[18:48] <exobuzz> i miss windowmaker, sniff ;-)
[18:49] <gordonjcp> etoile looked promising but the project seems to be dead
[18:49] <brobostigon> agrees*
[18:49] <exobuzz> i liked it at kde3, but kde4 put me off,. i liked the kate editor too, although i found geany to be quite ok
[18:49] <brobostigon> exobuzz: i agree with you on geany, :)
[18:50] <exobuzz> togeany has more features and loads quicker than gedit
[18:50] <exobuzz> perhaps it should replace it
[18:50] <brobostigon> exobuzz: i dont think it could replace it, as simple  basic text editor, which is why gedit is there.
[18:50] <exobuzz> i normally remove gedit, and just use geany
[18:51] <exobuzz> there is a lot of overlap though. and of course geany can be used as a simple editor too
[18:52] <exobuzz> anyway, as usual, there are a bunch of decent editors to choose from.
[18:52] <gordonjcp> gedit
[18:52] <exobuzz> mac users all rave on about textmate. never tried it though
[18:55] <exobuzz> brobostigon, do you use geany and also a larger ide? more things ive not tried recently is for example eclipse and kdevelop
[18:57] <brobostigon> exobuzz: geany, nano, and the arduino IDE.
[18:57] <gordonjcp> ick
[18:57] <gordonjcp> don't use the arduino IDE, it sucks
[18:57] <exobuzz> never heard of that
[18:57] <gordonjcp> use a real editor, and arsocns
[18:57] <gordonjcp> *arscons
[18:58] <exobuzz> hardware geekery orientated ?
[19:01] <gordonjcp> exobuzz: yeah
[19:02] <brobostigon> brb, foodings.
[19:10] <MattJ> nano is my editor, and the command-line is my IDE
[19:12] <Azelphur> yay, I'm starting to make progress in the world of android development :D
[19:12] <Azelphur> I've more or less got a working "connect on startup" patch for yaaic :)
[19:12] <Azelphur> ^ from hello world to this in one day, and the only documentation I read was the eclipse setup/hello world tutorial xD
[19:13] <brobostigon> Azelphur: congratsm :)
[19:13] <Azelphur> ty :p
[19:15] <willy1977> Azelphur: not bad mate... if you are after a paid for book :o I can recommende wrox Professional Android 2 Application Development :)
[19:15] <willy1977> *recommend
[19:15] <Azelphur> haha, me and books never get on, I generally just mess with other peoples code till it makes sense and slowly gain an idea of how the language works
[19:15] <Azelphur> that's how I learned python xD
[19:16] <willy1977> often-times that's for the best if you know the examples you're following are sound ;)
[19:16] <brobostigon> Azelphur: that is how i learnt c and c++-
[19:16] <Azelphur> fun :)
[19:16] <Azelphur> willy1977: should be good, yaaic is a nice IRC client based on pircbot :)
[19:16] <willy1977> well not to everyone but yeah, I find that stuff fun too :)
[19:17] <willy1977> ahh cool
[19:17] <brobostigon> Azelphur: one complaint, it doesnt seem to have nick completion or assitance of any kind.
[19:17] <Azelphur> brobostigon: should do, I believe the tab complete button is search
[19:17] <Azelphur> nope, I guess not o.O
[19:17] <brobostigon> Azelphur: i didnt find a way, hmm, i will have to try that.
[19:18] <brobostigon> oh, ok.
[19:18] <Azelphur> that can be on my todo list :)
[19:18] <brobostigon> Azelphur: it quite assential really, :)
[19:18] <Azelphur> indeed
[19:19] <willy1977> I'm thinking I may try and write a phpbb reader for android... I know a few that would want it but past my tri club not sure if there'd be much call for it :/
[19:20] <brobostigon> Azelphur: so i am on andchat, but have yaaic installed aswell.
[19:21] <Azelphur> brobostigon: yea, dev says it is supposed to be the search button, I guess it got broken :P
[19:21] <Azelphur> doesn't work for me in latest release or git
[19:21] <brobostigon> Azelphur: i didnt find it either, ok.
[19:21] <Azelphur> so it is there, it's just broken I guess :D
[19:30] <brobostigon> ohwell.
[19:31] <willy1977> guess it means it'll be fixed at some point though ;)
[19:32] <brobostigon> yes, fingers crossed.
[19:35] <Azelphur> it will be, if he doesn't fix it I probably will xD
[19:36] <willy1977> so is it all in java or pythong or sommat else?
[19:36] <willy1977> *python
[19:36] <Azelphur> java
[19:36] <willy1977> I'm having a stab at picking that up just now too...
[19:37] <Azelphur> :)
[19:37] <willy1977> meaning as well as linux...
[19:37] <brobostigon> i have been playing with google app inventor, as idont seem to be able to understand java,
[19:39] <willy1977> I guess I'm lucky in that regard as far as I can tell it's principles are similar to c# but with a different set of namespaces etc. doesn't make it any easier I guess :D
[19:39] <brobostigon> i would be a happier if they had used c or c++.
[19:40] <willy1977> yeah I know what you mean - I reckon there's always one language set that a dev is more at home with...
[19:41] <brobostigon> yes, i would  agree,
[19:41] <brobostigon> i am no dev though, really.
[19:42] <willy1977> what makes you say that? is it because you don't have a star wars/star trek t-shirt that is faded?
[19:42] <willy1977> ;)
[19:43] <brobostigon> willy1977: because i mostly only play, i dont do anything really serious.
[19:45] <willy1977> brobostigon: I get you - it's cool when it's play it can get a grind when it's day to day ;)
[19:45] <willy1977> pretty much why I've started hanging around here is to remind myself why I first went in to IT and dev work.
[19:45] <brobostigon> willy1977: most i do, is some work for the controllers on my dads car project, and that is it.
[19:55] <willy1977> sorry had to sort some family stuff out - sounds interesting though.
[19:56] <shauno> heh, I haven't used fetchmail for eons.  it still works :D
[19:56] <shauno> kinda.  I'm not quite sure where it put the first attempt.
[20:01] <willy1977> shauno: not bad then... one learning attempt and success :p
[20:03] <willy1977> doh... not sure what happened then :)
[20:07] <gord> it seems insane that we live in a world where i can visit some webpage, the website then insist that i must be logged in and take me to a form where firefox has already filled out the information and ticked the "remember me" checkbox. i don't care if its firefox's fault or the websites fault, it sucks :(
[20:08] <shauno> so all the page needs is a relatively simple bit of javascript to see if the client is one that's expected to do that, enough fields aren't empty that it's happy, and it can submit the form for you.
[20:08] <shauno> score!  .. for the site
[20:08] <Azelphur> gah, so close to having my connect on start working xD
[20:08] <Azelphur> I can connect servers on startup, I've created the option for it, just can't get it to save/load the setting...grr :p
[20:09] <shauno> does firefox highlight fields it's filled for you in any way?
[20:10] <willy1977> Azelphur: what's up with the settings save then?
[20:10] <Azelphur> dunno XD
[20:10] <Azelphur> think I found it.
[20:11] <shauno> infact, it wouldn't have to.  the script could just check fields are filled within a time limit, assume that fast enough wasn't human interaction, and go ahead with the submit
[20:12] <gordonjcp> is there a way to get rid of the outsize speech bubbles in empathy chat windows?
[20:12] <Azelphur> aha, now I've got it :p
[20:14] <ali1234> gordonjcp: change the theme, there's one that doesn't use bubbles
[20:15] <gordonjcp> ali1234: aha
[20:15] <gordonjcp> thanks, that's much better
[20:15] <ali1234> it's kind of ugly though, i find it runs everything together
[20:16] <Azelphur> success, one fully functional feature \o/
[20:16] <ali1234> gord: sourceforge?
[20:21] <matti> ;]
[20:24] <gordonjcp> ali1234: yeah, but my monitor is quite old and really the resolution's not high enough for Unity
[20:24]  * gordonjcp remembers when 1680x1050 was actually quite big
[20:25] <brobostigon> gordonjcp: it still is, :)
[20:25] <ali1234> i thought the whole point of unity was to improve the way screen space is used?
[20:25] <ali1234> anyway i recommend using classic
[20:25] <ali1234> and pidgin instead of empathy
[20:25]  * brobostigon uses gnome3 and empathy,
[21:27] <mgdm> evenin' aquarius
[21:56] <amber481> Hi All,My company has just recently migrated from a Windows to a Linux farm.  At the moment we don’t have document storage system so we are using Google docs at the present time. We don’t see this as the safest method of document storage so I have been assigned the task of finding a better solution.I have been advised to set an FTP server but this method seems dated and the search functionality isn’t very good and I’ve also 
[21:57] <gordonjcp> amber481: what were you using on Windows?
[21:58] <moreati> probably g:\ :)
[21:58] <gordonjcp> hm ;-)
[21:58] <willy1977> was it sharepoint?
[21:58] <amber481> yes
[21:58] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell or TheOpenSourcerer might know
[21:59] <gordonjcp> I've never used sharepoint so I don't know what it's like
[21:59] <amber481> anything similar to GIT?
[21:59] <willy1977> gordonjcp: web frontend
[21:59] <amber481> which could handle PDF's?
[21:59] <gordonjcp> willy1977: web frontend to what?
[21:59] <gordonjcp> amber481: well, git would handle PDFs, just maybe not very well
[22:00] <amber481> ive tried and it doesnt
[22:00] <willy1977> sharepoint - it backs on to a set of iis/reporting services
[22:00] <willy1977> *iis sites
[22:00] <AlanBell> if documents are the question then Alfresco is the answer
[22:00] <AlanBell> </sales pitch>
[22:00] <moreati> amber481: What you mean by GIT, maybe what most of us mean. To us git is a source code system used by the Linux kernel developers
[22:00] <gordonjcp> I just spotted Alfresco on Google
[22:01] <amber481> can Alfresco handle PDF's?
[22:01] <AlanBell> sure
[22:01] <AlanBell> it can generate PDFs on the fly from stuff too
[22:02] <AlanBell> so you can have version tracked documents in ods format and published PDFs on the web somewhere
[22:02] <amber481> sounds good
[22:02] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: your project?
[22:02] <amber481> do you have any links?
[22:02] <amber481> thank god for the UK
[22:02] <amber481> :)
[22:02] <AlanBell> nope, not my project, but we work with it for our customers
[22:02] <willy1977> http://www.alfresco.com/
[22:02] <popey> Thank the queen!
[22:02]  * AlanBell stands to attention
[22:02] <amber481> americans are assholes
[22:02] <amber481> really
[22:02]  * popey stands up
[22:03]  * popey averts his gaze
[22:03] <amber481> thanks guys
[22:03]  * willy1977 starts the tape on track 3... pomp n circumstance...
[22:03]  * gordonjcp points out that he has no queen
[22:03] <amber481> lol
[22:03] <amber481> bye
[22:03] <gordonjcp> bloody germans coming over here and taking our jobs
[22:04] <willy1977> i hate the germans... bombed our chippy (circa 1980's liverpudlian accent required)
[22:04] <moreati> gordonjcp: did you here when apple we're recruiting exchange students in London. "Bloody Jobs, coming over here, stealing our foreigners"
[22:04] <gordonjcp> moreati: :-)
[22:05] <gordonjcp> moreati: I hear he may be going in for a heart transplant
[22:05] <gordonjcp> moreati: so if they leave the old one in does that mean that the new Steve Jobs is dual-coeur?
[22:05] <amber481> http://www.alfresco.com/  is no good
[22:06] <moreati> amber481: works here
[22:06] <amber481> i need an opensource app
[22:06] <gordonjcp> amber481: why not?
[22:06] <willy1977> I think it looks quite good to be honest... :/ why not?
[22:06] <gordonjcp> http://wiki.alfresco.com/wiki/Alfresco_SVN_Development_Environmen
[22:06] <gordonjcp> http://wiki.alfresco.com/wiki/Alfresco_SVN_Development_Environment
[22:06] <moreati> amber481: IIRC Alfresco comes in open source and paid flavours
[22:06] <willy1977> it is open source as far as... oh yeah what they said :)
[22:07] <amber481> :)
[22:07] <oo> hey
[22:07] <gordonjcp> although the idea of running java on a server scares me a bit
[22:07] <amber481> great... changed my mind
[22:07] <willy1977> http://www.alfresco.com/products/platform/
[22:07] <amber481> why?
[22:07] <moreati> amber481: http://www.alfresco.com/try/ Look for Alfresco Community
[22:07] <amber481> whats wrong with java on a server?
[22:08]  * popey works for a company that runs most of its business on very large java based apps
[22:08] <popey> very large
[22:08] <moreati> popey: is it wise to mention SAP, when you're trying to defend Java on servers ;)
[22:09] <popey> I'm not defending anything
[22:09] <AlanBell> amber481: it *is* free software
[22:09] <popey> just mentioning in passing
[22:09] <amber481> we are non profit
[22:09] <AlanBell> the community edition is a bit more bleeding edge than the commercially supported enterprise version
[22:09] <amber481> so i need somethinf thats opensource
[22:09] <AlanBell> but it is the same code
[22:09] <AlanBell> it is LGPL 3 I think
[22:10]  * AlanBell checks
[22:10] <moreati> GPL 2 with linking exceptions according to Wikipedia
[22:11] <AlanBell> moreati: wikipedia would appear to be wrong then
[22:11] <AlanBell> http://newton.typepad.com/content/2010/01/a-shift-in-alfresco-community-license-to-lgpl.html
[22:12] <amber481> thanks again
[22:13] <AlanBell> there is probably a bit more complexity in it than that as it is quite a lot of bits of stuff flying together in close formation
[22:14] <AlanBell> I think the business process modeling bit JBPM stuff is a bit less liberally licensed but they were swapping that out for something else
[22:14] <AlanBell> and in the all-in-one installer they include a tomcat and mysql and openoffice.org
[22:15] <AlanBell> which I think is a bad idea, but don't blame me
[22:16] <AlanBell> java does run masses of stuff on masses of servers, it has a strong reputation for scalability (a better reputation than it deserves IMHO)
[22:16] <directhex> i lie about respecting java as a choice
[22:18] <moreati> AlanBell: fixed
[22:19] <AlanBell> moreati: not quite :)
[22:19] <AlanBell> linking exception applies to GPL only
[22:19] <AlanBell> and I am fairly sure it is LGPL3 and not 2
[22:19] <moreati> AlanBell: oh pooh, couldn't find an actual LICENSE file in the repo
[22:20] <AlanBell> GNU LESSER GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 3, 29 June 2007
[22:20] <directhex> i'm tired of lying about saying there's an appropriate time to use java. i don't think that. i'm disingenuous when i say i do.
[22:20]  * AlanBell finds one in /opt/alfresco-3.4.c/licenses/license.txt
[22:21] <willy1977> directhex: so there's no appropriate time to use java?
[22:21] <amber481> so are you guys excited about the royal wedding? im from NY and for some reason its all over our news stations
[22:21] <willy1977> our bills wedding? oh aye... extra day off innit... ;)
[22:21] <directhex> willy1977, IMHO? it's a dead language, and should be used whenever you consider dead languages
[22:21] <amber481> lol
[22:21] <directhex> amber481, nobody in my circle of friends could give a flying freak about it.
[22:22] <moreati> directhex: ditto
[22:22] <AlanBell> directhex: I fully agree with you
[22:22] <amber481> lol
[22:22] <amber481> you guy make me laugh
[22:22] <amber481> guys*
[22:22] <amber481> why not?
[22:22] <amber481> he's your future king
[22:22] <AlanBell> meh
[22:23] <willy1977> joe king...?
[22:23] <popey> amber481: there's probably more interest in our royal family outside the UK than in it
[22:23] <AlanBell> amber481: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-March/029306.html
[22:23] <moreati> amber481: that matters about as much as who sings the national anthem in the superbowl
[22:24] <directhex> amber481, there are three types of people who care about the royal wedding
[22:24] <AlanBell> just some kids who are getting married on the natty bank holiday
[22:24] <dutchie> directhex: 1) people in the royal family? :)
[22:24] <directhex> amber481, 1) people in the tourist trade, who hope to make moar cash from foreigners come to gawk at our silly customs
[22:24] <amber481> theres  a movie coming out about the royal wedding... will you go and see it  <directhex>
[22:25] <directhex> amber481, 2) people who don't care about the occasion, but are happy about the extra national holiday day
[22:25] <bigcalm> \o/
[22:25] <bigcalm> Would be nice if it were every year
[22:25] <popey> :( another day I dont get paid
[22:25] <amber481> Windsor castle is nice... ive been there!
[22:25] <willy1977> oh aye \o/ - 11 days off for the price of 3... thank you jesus and bill!
[22:25] <directhex> amber481, 3) weird people who still think an imported german set of aristocrats are somehow superior specimens of the species, and genuinely like the idea of hereditary leadership
[22:25] <bigcalm> popey: but you get so spend extra time with your wonderful family :)
[22:26] <popey> hrm
[22:26] <amber481> you are lucky! i only get 7 paid holidays a year
[22:26] <amber481> you guys get something silly
[22:26] <amber481> 2 weeks
[22:26] <directhex> amber481, well, that's the US. even at mcdonalds you'd get more than twice that in europe
[22:26] <amber481> right?
[22:26] <amber481> lol
[22:26] <bigcalm> 20 days off plus bank holidays is the minimum
[22:26] <amber481> wow
[22:27] <directhex> amber481, i get 20 days plus bank holidays, which is significantly less than my last job
[22:27] <bigcalm> Same here
[22:27] <amber481> and the french?
[22:27] <directhex> amber481, more than that.
[22:27] <bigcalm> Are just basicly ;)
[22:27] <amber481> they get more right?
[22:27] <dutchie> only because they are striking all the time :)
[22:27] <bigcalm> (in-joke lost on most)
[22:27] <popey> I got it
[22:27] <directhex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country
[22:28] <amber481> lol
[22:28] <safiyyah> hi guys
[22:28] <bigcalm> popey: that's beacuase you're tops!
[22:28] <safiyyah> i need help with something real quick
[22:28] <directhex> amber481, they get more in vietnam! 10 days!
[22:28] <bigcalm> safiyyah: fire away
[22:28] <amber481> lol
[22:28] <amber481> ture
[22:28] <amber481> true*
[22:29] <amber481> by the way 7 days is including sick days
[22:29] <directhex> ...
[22:29] <popey> !
[22:29] <directhex> was going to say you get the same as someone from hong jong
[22:29] <directhex> but with that extra bit... you don't
[22:29] <bigcalm> Sick days come out of your holiday entitlement?
[22:30] <willy1977> including sick days?
[22:30] <Pendulum> everyone gets more than the US
[22:30] <popey> amber481: come and live in the UK :)
[22:30] <Pendulum> bigcalm: they're not required to provide sick days in the US
[22:30]  * bigcalm stays put
[22:30] <popey> apparently we're socialist lefies, but hey, we get more holiday than you :D
[22:30] <bigcalm> Pendulum: backwards country ;)
[22:30] <Pendulum> some places offer them outside of holiday, some places don't
[22:30] <Pendulum> bigcalm: you're telling me! I've been trying to get out for years!
[22:30] <bigcalm> Hehe
[22:30] <bigcalm> awwww
[22:30] <popey> silly colonies, leaving the empire
[22:31] <bigcalm> Aye
[22:31] <amber481> lol
[22:31] <popey> also, the fork goes in your _left_ hand
[22:31] <willy1977> you know someone once asked at an interview I was doing how many sick days they got... scrunched up his face when I said none...
[22:31] <Pendulum> popey: that's how I eat when I'm not in the US
[22:31] <amber481> :)
[22:31] <Pendulum> but if you're using your fork in your left and the person next to you is using it in their right, it's messy
[22:32] <popey> learn them!
[22:32] <popey> learn them properly
[22:32] <popey> by projecting your food on their shirt
[22:32] <popey> "oh, sorry!"
[22:32] <amber481> :)
[22:32] <Pendulum> haha
[22:32] <willy1977> in the fork stakes I'm a heathen... :( but I drink tea properly...
[22:32] <bigcalm> popey: I think some 'lefties' might have something to say about that :P
[22:32] <Pendulum> tea \o/
[22:32] <popey> willy1977: from a bucket?
[22:33] <willy1977> quite right
[22:33] <bigcalm> willy1977: with your little finger sticking out?
[22:33] <popey> I do so enjoy these cultural exchanges
[22:33] <willy1977> from a bouqet with my little fingah sticking out ya...
[22:33] <bigcalm> Pendulum: kb update - it's great :D
[22:33] <Pendulum> bigcalm: good :)
[22:33]  * brobostigon wonders what he has just walked into.
[22:34] <Pendulum> brobostigon: why the US sucks :)
[22:34] <willy1977> oh hello auld chap... how are you...
[22:34] <brobostigon> Pendulum: hmmm, okies.
[22:35] <safiyyah> I installed brother scanner drivers using dpkg --forceall, anyway it's the wrong driver
[22:35] <safiyyah> I would like to remove just the scanner drivers NOT all brother drivers
[22:35] <safiyyah> I will post the output of grep
[22:36] <bigcalm> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html # nice bit of tech this
[22:36] <safiyyah> http://paste.ubuntu.com/590988/
[22:36] <safiyyah> I only want to remove brscan and brscankey
[22:38] <directhex> safiyyah, dpkg --purge brscan-skey  ?
[22:43] <safiyyah> thanx directhex
[22:44] <daftykins> D:
[22:45] <brobostigon> with "sudo dpkg --force-all -r " i fixed my package upgrade error, from earlier, hopefuly i havent trashed anything.
[22:51] <Safiyyah> oh great the scanner is working
[22:52] <Safiyyah> I am really impressed with brother
[22:52] <Safiyyah> they have provided for linux users well
[22:57] <daftykins> as long as you know command line? ^_^
[22:58] <Safiyyah> daftykins, i hardly know command line
[22:58] <Safiyyah> the instructions are good
[22:58] <daftykins> ah
[22:58] <Safiyyah> they have very detailed instructions on the site
[23:01] <daftykins> i bought a webcam recently that should work under Linux happily
[23:02] <HazRPG> dwatkins: most do, don't they?
[23:02] <HazRPG> i mean i was shocked my microsoft LifeCam HD worked ootb
[23:05] <directhex> Safiyyah, it would be nice if the drivers were free software
[23:06] <daftykins> HazRPG: i nearly got a Microsoft one, but i went with the Logitech C910 in the end
[23:06] <daftykins> 1080p on windows, (albeit at a low framerate)
[23:06] <daftykins> but only does 720p UVC style
[23:06] <daftykins> but i figure, that's fine :D
[23:07] <Safiyyah> directhex,  they are free
[23:07] <Safiyyah> i downloaded them off the site
[23:07] <directhex> no source.
[23:07] <Safiyyah> i think there are US laws on the fax software because of telephone companies there but aside that...
[23:07] <brobostigon> Safiyyah: i suspect OSS was implied
[23:07] <Safiyyah> oh....
[23:08] <Safiyyah> maybe e-mailing someone at brother....
[23:08] <Safiyyah> one of the big guys
[23:08] <daftykins> Safiyyah: he means you can't edit the source code and make it into a device to scan yourself into the computer like real life Tron
[23:08] <daftykins> but one day... one day...
[23:08] <Safiyyah> OR brother wakes up to becoming free
[23:08] <directhex> daftykins, or, y'know, use it on amd64 properly
[23:08] <directhex> or fix the egregious packaging bugs
[23:08] <daftykins> directhex: Tron first though, right?
[23:11] <HazRPG> daftykins: heh, yeah my microsoft one does 720p pretty well :)
[23:11] <HazRPG> and its wide-screened, which I find rather random
[23:11] <daftykins> yeah this one too
[23:12] <daftykins> in fect, it was 4:3 and lower res during a skype video call to a friend, then i stopped hammering my upload and it decided to go widescreen and higher-res :D
[23:12] <daftykins> fact even, not fect
[23:12] <AlanBell> anyone seen any benefit from the new skype beta?
[23:13] <directhex> AlanBell, the new skype beta supports h264 video, that's the major feature
[23:13] <directhex> the last beta couldn't do video to non-linux clients
[23:13] <directhex> from, even
[23:13] <AlanBell> fairly sure it did
[23:14] <AlanBell> unless more of my relatives are running Linux than I previously thought
[23:15] <daftykins> XD
[23:15] <daftykins> and thus the war was won
[23:29] <Seeker`> bah, can't find ppa.launchpad.net maverick/main for some reason :/
[23:44] <brobostigon> good night everyone, sleep well.