[01:44] <ScottL> ailo, i uninstalled hexter and jack-dssi-host
[01:45] <ScottL> then i reinstalled hexter
[01:45] <ScottL> jack-dssi-host was not installed then
[01:45] <ScottL> i was able to run qtractor, insert hexter as a plugin, and get sound out of it without jack-dssi-host :/
[01:46] <ailo> ScottL, This is the launch command from the menu: jack-dssi-host hexter.so
[01:46] <ailo> So, since it is a plugin, it will only work with a host, but the menu starter requires jack-dssi-host
[01:47] <ScottL> ah, going back upstairs to check this out
[01:48] <ailo> I think it makes sense that jack-dssi-host should be installed, since the menu launcher requires it.
[01:48] <ailo> It's sort of the standalone version
[01:49] <ailo> When people install only hexter and try to start it from the menu, they will think it's broken
[01:50] <holstein> ailo: i used to think that about all the stuff in ubuntustudio ;)
[01:50] <ailo> As many do anyway, because they don't realize jack must be started first, but that's another issue :)
[01:53] <ailo> holstein, It's too bad that there is no popup from programs telling the user when jack's not running. Probably tough to implement system-wide.
[01:53] <holstein> ailo: i dont know why that cant be upstream though
[01:53] <holstein> in debian
[01:53] <holstein> for all the apps that require JACK
[01:53] <holstein> when JACK aint running
[01:54] <holstein> instead of barfing
[01:54] <holstein> just a little note 
[01:54] <ailo> It would make things a lot easier for sure
[01:54] <holstein> more clear
[01:55] <holstein> with IRC though
[01:55] <holstein> its easier
[01:55] <holstein> before that
[01:55] <holstein> it literally took me years to get around to understanding what JACK did
[01:55] <ailo> Ooh, I spent a lot of time googling. And went through many distros and setups before I started getting things
[01:56] <holstein> 64studio was the first one that worked for me
[01:56] <holstein> for audio
[01:56] <holstein> they had a live disc
[01:56] <ScottL> okay ailo, i agree with you :)
[01:56] <holstein> and jack started
[01:56] <ScottL> but how are you supposed to use hexter as a stand alone
[01:57] <ailo> ScottL, Have you tried it? Make sure jack is running and jack-dssi-host is installed, and start it from the menu
[01:57] <ailo> holstein, I skipped that one for some reason. I went between Ubuntu Studio and Fedora for a while
[01:58] <ScottL> ailo, i did, it runs, i made sounds with it
[01:58] <ScottL> ailo, but what is the use case, how do i control it?
[01:58] <ScottL> without it being a plugin?
[01:58] <holstein> i never got the hang of yum
[01:58] <holstein> or yast
[01:59] <ailo> ScottL, You need a keyboard to play it, or connect a sequencer's midi out to it
[01:59] <ailo> holstein, yum was terribly slow, I felt
[01:59] <holstein> last time i had a fedora install
[01:59] <holstein> f12 i think
[01:59] <ailo> ScottL, Try vkeybd
[01:59] <holstein> it was still slow
[01:59] <ailo> ScottL, And connect through alsa midi tab
[02:00] <ailo> holstein, I went from Fedora to CentOS later, which is a clone of Red Hat more or less
[02:01] <ailo> holstein, I quit once two of my hard disks died at once. Not sure, but could be because of my hardware + Planet CCRMA's -rt kernel
[02:01] <ScottL> ailo, okay, i get it now, i'll update the bug in a bit
[02:01] <ScottL> i just wanted to make sure there was a reason to fix it
[02:01] <ailo> ScottL, of course.
[02:02] <ailo> ScottL, The only reason I think it makes sense to install the jack host is because of the menu launcher.
[02:03] <ailo> holstein, That is also when I started disliking -rt a bit. I started to get the experimental bit of it
[02:04] <ailo> But, I was using pretty old hardware. P3 and one of the first AMD sempron's
[02:04] <ailo> One of my problems was I couldn't shut down the system at all
[02:05] <ailo> So, -lowlatency I do prefer over things like that
[02:10] <ailo> btw, my kernel build failed. I must need a slightly different procedure. I'll work it out another day.
[03:04] <ScottL> ailo, would you like me to help you make a patch for hexter?
[03:04] <ScottL> i don't believe you would have any significant problems doing it
[03:04] <ScottL> i updated the bug by the way
[03:05] <ailo> ScottL, Sure. But, I don't know how to do it.
[03:05] <ScottL> ailo, no problem, tomorrow during the day i will post instructions for you
[03:05] <ScottL> i expect this to be a great teachable moment :)
[03:06] <ailo> ScottL, Great. I hope to have some use for that later on.
[03:29] <ScottL> ailo, to make the patch you will need to download the current code, then make the change which will involve learning about the control file, then create the diff, and then attach the diff to the bug
[03:29] <ScottL> lots of good things in there that will benefit you in other areas like packaging
[03:31] <ailo> ScottL, I think I understand the concept. I will just need to learn about each step and which tools to use, and so on
[03:56] <ailo> ScottL: I suppose all I need to do is edit the control file to make the jack host a dependency, use dch to create the changelog, and then make a diff and a patch from that diff. Seems like it shouldn't be too many steps
[05:26] <ScottL> ailo, you got it :)
[05:26] <ScottL> the only thing i would clarify is that you would use dch to update the changelog, as it already exists
[07:10]  * abogani waves all
[07:10] <abogani> ailo: ping
[07:12] <abogani> 1) I really impressive from the good sense and the balance you show in your replies like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2011-April/007442.html
[07:13] <abogani> 2) Could you test this https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/snmp++/+packages , please?
[07:13] <abogani> I'm work and I can't test it for next 10 hours at least.
[07:14] <abogani> .
[07:14] <abogani> Good morning to all! Here in Italy today is a shiny day!
[08:28] <abogani> ailo: I forgot to mention that the 2.6.39-lowlatency kernel is irq-threaded by default so there isn't need to pass the "threadirqs" kernel parameter at Grub menu. Moreover I have added a new kernel parameter for disable it (that is "nothreadirqs").
[08:28] <abogani> ailo: As you already know You should install rtirq-init to let it adjust priorities.
[08:28] <abogani> ScottL: ^
[08:31] <abogani> Please keep in mind that we _have_to_ choose a only one version for -lowlatency kernel (that is 2.6.38 *or* 2.6.39).
[08:31] <abogani> ScottL: ^^
[08:36] <abogani> I'm disappointed that falkt doesn't provide back his works on -realtime correlate packages (like nvidia drivers).
[08:36] <abogani> ScottL: ^^^
[12:04] <ailo> abogani, We have a little sunlight here too and it's just about spring here. Trying out your kernel..
[12:44] <ailo> I'm doing 32 frames/period with the 2.6.39 -lowlatency and the rtirq-init script with no xruns. 
[12:45] <ailo> 1.45 ms latency
[12:46] <ailo> I can even start at 16 frames/period, but my onboard sound-card can't take that. I get more than 200 xruns a second. 32 frames/period is fine
[12:48] <abogani> ailo: Sorry I don't remember numbers for 2.6.38-lowlatency. Which works better?
[12:50] <ailo> abogani, I need to test more, but so far, I can lower the frames/period by half on 2.6.39
[12:50] <abogani> ailo: impressive
[12:50] <ailo> Hopefully there are no random xruns. I will try to get some.
[12:51] <abogani> ailo: Ok
[13:03] <ailo> abogani, I don't seem to get xruns like I did with 2.6.38, but when I uncompress a file, I will get a couple.
[13:03] <ailo> On 2.6.38 it was just a matter of time, every 2 minutes or so.
[13:04] <abogani> ailo: So 39 is better?
[13:05] <abogani> ailo: by the way Are you using one of evil video closed drivers?
[13:23] <abogani> ailo: by the way Are you using one of evil video closed drivers?
[13:23] <ailo> abogani, I was not able to install nvidia-current.
[13:24] <abogani> ailo: 39? 38? or both?
[13:24] <ailo> Only 39
[13:24] <ScottL> abogani, i think we the answer for kernel version is 2.6.39 for -lowtlatency, i expect it would be stable by the time we release ocelot and it has the benefit of irq-threading as you mention
[13:25] <ScottL> abogani, i can talk to falk about providing his work, but couldn't we also take the source from his ppa?
[13:25] <ailo> ScottL, I'm sure it will be long before that. Maybe the kernel for Ocelot will be a higher version. But, we need to test the -generic as well
[13:32] <ailo> vlc is not to be recommended with jack, though. Had it playing while I did other things. It doesn't give xruns, but the sound will sometimes get crackled. I know from a few years ago, vlc could sound like a tape recorder, that started slowly. Very strange behaviour from a software audio player
[13:37] <ailo> abogani, It was some time ago now, but I tried a test where I used pd to flood the cpu in non realtime more on both cpu's. No xruns. Now, the two pd processes behave differently, and I get xruns when flooding the cpu, though only a couple. 
[13:38] <ailo> I never tried compiling, or uncompressing/compressing with 2.6.38. I will try that later to see the difference
[13:38] <abogani> ailo: Ok.
[13:39] <abogani> Tonight I'll investigate about nvidia-current.
[13:39] <abogani> ailo: ^
[13:40] <ailo> abogani, It looks very promising. Interesting to see if -generic can deliver as well.
[13:42] <abogani> ailo: Could you give me the rtirq's output, please?
[13:43]  * abogani doesn't like rtirq...
[13:43] <ailo> abogani, How was it I did that?
[13:45] <ailo> Bad news. I get a few odd xruns, even when there's not much going on.
[13:45] <abogani> ailo: I suppose grepping in /var/log/: sudo grep -ri priorities /var/log/
[13:46] <abogani> ailo: :-(
[13:48] <ailo> abogani, http://paste.ubuntu.com/590738/
[13:49] <abogani> ailo: rtirq is stupid.
[13:51] <ailo> abogani, Not the right devices get prio?
[13:53]  * ailo needs to walk the dog and will come back later
[13:54] <abogani> ailo: good walk
[15:24] <holstein> ailo: so, 3d is not really optional for gnome3?
[15:25] <holstein> i mean, i guess that is how to move forward
[15:25] <holstein> to utilize that technology
[15:25] <holstein> and make things look slick
[15:25] <holstein> if the heavy lifting is off on the GPU
[15:26] <holstein> then why not
[15:27] <falktx> gnome3 is still F*** ugly
[15:27] <holstein> falktx: lol
[15:27] <ailo> holstein, You need video acceleration, so not really 3d, but still, you need drivers. I think it's 2d acceleration
[15:27] <ailo> falktx, I'
[15:28] <holstein> ailo: i think that could be a deal breaker
[15:28] <ailo> I'm surprised they haven't been working on the looks that much
[15:28] <holstein> we should talk about that though
[15:28] <falktx> unity 3x better than gnome3
[15:28] <holstein> ubuntustudio has never really been that low-resource distro
[15:28] <ailo> holstein, Well, in the past, I would say yes
[15:29] <ailo> I can see how Gnome3 will become a good system. It needs to be tweakable.
[15:30] <ailo> holstein, I think the problem is that open source graphic drivers aren't better yet.
[15:30] <falktx> ailo: gnome3 has the same issues has kde4.0, it's just too new (and probably unstable)
[15:30] <holstein> i dont think we can depend on them
[15:31] <holstein> *drivers
[15:31] <holstein> unity added the 2d version
[15:31] <holstein> and i thought that was a good call
[15:32] <falktx> holstein: hehe, unity2d uses Qt, not gtk...
[15:32] <falktx> quite a weird call there I think
[15:32] <holstein> falktx: im just glad its not required
[15:32] <ailo> falktx, Maybe not. They are moving on to Wayland as well, as will Gnome3 later on. 
[15:32] <scott-work> falktx: i tried the fedora gnome 3 live disc several days ago and thought it looked pretty good
[15:33] <holstein> for those that dont have good driver support for their hardware
[15:33] <ailo> holstein, I think most systems are supported, but there are still a few that are not
[15:33] <ailo> My onboard nvidia 7025 is not working very well, for instance, but my pci Express 7300 is
[15:34] <ailo> Both nvidia
[15:34] <scott-work> ailo: "ailo	Bad news. I get a few odd xruns, even when there's not much going on."   which kernel was this for?
[15:34] <ailo> scott-work, 2.6.39. 
[15:34] <scott-work> ailo: -generic or -lowlatency?
[15:34] <ailo> scott-work, aboganis -lowlatency. 
[15:35] <scott-work> falktx: is there some way that we (ubuntu studio team) can use some of your video drivers?
[15:35]  * holstein gotta run
[15:35] <holstein> l8r folkz
[15:35] <ailo> Hard to say if the xruns occur randomly, since now I'm getting xruns from things I didn't before, however, I can also get lower latencies
[15:38] <ailo> Also, I've noticed that jackd does not always get control of the sound card right away. Now, jackd crashed and made qjackctl freeze. Often I have to start jackd 2 times before it starts
[15:40] <ailo> Also, trying to mess with PA while jackd is running can crash something
[15:44] <falktx> ailo: r u using jack2?
[15:45] <ailo> falktx, No I wasn't. You think that makes a difference?
[15:45] <falktx> ailo: yes
[15:45] <falktx> ailo: for PA and jack to work together, you need jack2
[15:45] <ailo> falktx, I will try with jackd2 then
[15:46] <ailo> falktx, I'm not using any bridge.
[15:46] <falktx> i know
[15:46] <falktx> ailo: jack2 stops PA while starting (if possible)
[15:46] <ailo> Ah, it does? That's too bad
[15:46] <falktx> ailo: when jack2 is stopped, PA gets re-started
[15:46] <ailo> falktx, I would rather qjackctl does that, which it does
[15:47] <ailo> falktx, Makes it impossible to run PA and jackd at the same time, which I sometimes do
[15:48] <ailo> With different cards
[15:48] <falktx> ailo: just use my script
[15:48] <falktx> oh, different cards...
[15:55] <ailo> I'm getting different results with 2.6.38 than I did before too. This is no fun :(
[16:30] <ailo> I don't know. The latest kernel seems to give me lower latencies, but I'm still not getting more reliable performance.
[16:31] <abogani> ailo: You should compare the worst case not the best one.
[16:32] <abogani> Perhaps we should let someone firewire user do the tests...
[16:33] <ailo> abogani, Absolutely. That would be the greatest benefit anyway
[16:35] <ailo> holstein, ronj, autostatic are the ones I know have them, but I don't know who has irq share problems. Perhaps holstein could arrange to give himself a problem
[16:46] <ailo> abogani, At a little higher latency, which is really all I think anyone would need (under 10 ms), it seems very stable. But, it's hard to know, if it will be stable days and months in a row. But, that is perhaps too much to ask :). So, if firewire works with this, I think there's no questions this is a very good kernel.
[16:56] <ailo> I will need to test on other cards too. I've been doing all these tests on a onboard card, which is not meant for pro audio anyway.
[17:40] <holstein> ailo abogani i have a test machine i coule 'break' or whatever
[17:41] <holstein> if you guys help me with the how-too's
[17:42] <holstein> i'll be in and out today
[17:42] <holstein> i could probably make time to test something over the weekend
[17:42] <holstein> or late nite for me
[17:54] <ailo> holstein, The best thing would be if you have an irq share problem. I wouldn't want you to test on a machine that you are afraid to break. I had a system freeze myself once already.
[17:54] <ailo> holstein, But, I assume you don't have any irq problems on any system?
[18:32] <holstein> ailo: not with FW
[18:32] <holstein> with usb i do
[18:32] <holstein> but i dont think that helps
[18:44] <ailo> holstein, You usually get bad performance from the usb device?
[18:44] <holstein> ailo: depends
[18:44] <holstein> i had* one that was just horrible
[18:44] <holstein> there were like 8 things on one IRQ
[18:45] <ailo> holstein, That sounds like a dream situations
[18:45] <ailo> situation*
[18:46] <holstein> hehe
[19:01] <scott-work_> ailo: this video shows that you are right about gnom3 and single app focus:  http://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop#p/u/4/bRHAio98n-g
[19:03] <scott-work_> and here is some good window management items:  http://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop#p/u/5/Ip9Bgjaspjs
[19:03] <scott-work_> gnome3 might not be so bad after all :P
[19:04] <ailo> scott-work, I was just about to paste that :)
[19:05] <ailo> scott-work_, The panel is gone, and the menu system is different, but overall, window management, and just working with programs should not be any different
[19:05] <ailo> A little different maybe
[19:05] <scott-work_> ailo: i'm sorely tempted to find time to install vanilla ubuntu, add the gnome3 ppa, and then install studio apps and see how it does
[19:06] <scott-work_> maybe even record some of the things with gtk-recordmydesktop to show people
[19:07] <ailo> scott-work_, We should at least try it, I think. The main problem I see is if graphic cards are not supported, but hopefully they will keep a fallback option until they are sure practically every system will work with it
[19:15] <ailo> Also, it's interesting to see what kind of a performance difference there is, or if it takes much more memory and so on.
[19:16] <ailo> Ok. Time to start testing with m-audio now. Hopefully it's much more stable :P
[20:25] <ailo> scott-work_, Actually I got corrupted graphics from installing Ubuntu Studio Natty as well, now that I think of it. I need to install nvidia drivers in order for it to work. Updating now, so let's see if I can do without nvidia drivers first
[20:27] <ailo> Yes, it's working without drivers.
[21:14] <holstein> w0w
[21:14] <holstein> gnome3 has keyboard shortcuts to switch between workspaces
[21:15] <holstein> im not clear on how that can be listed as a *new* feature
[21:15] <holstein> but whatever
[21:18]  * ckontros waves
[21:24] <ailo> abogani: On my other system, I get worse performance with 2.6.39, while 2.6.38 is the same
[21:26] <ailo> What's up ckontros?
[21:30] <ckontros> Just got home from work. Gonna write some Studio emails regarding the switch the the XFCE desktop.
[21:30] <ailo> ckontros, Have we definitely decided yet? I would like to wait a little.
[21:30] <ailo> Or, you want to get opinions?
[21:33] <holstein> yeah, i agree
[21:33] <holstein> careful what/who you stir up ckontros 
[21:34] <holstein> since the meeting, we're been kicking it around quite a bit in here
[21:34] <ckontros> I'll elaborate.
[21:35] <ckontros> "Some emails" would 1st be to the Studio-dev list regarding specific UI ideas.
[21:35] <ckontros> Then based on feedback, adjust.
[21:36] <holstein> ckontros: cool
[21:36] <ckontros> In the absence of major issues/reservations/changes, I would then reach out the the guys in xubuntu-devel.
[21:37] <scott-work_> hi ckontros 
[21:37] <ckontros> If there's anything ne wsince the meeting, I'm listening. :)
[21:37] <ailo> We should take a good look at Unity and Gnome3 before we form an opinion, I think. There's not much done on that yet, I believe.
[21:37]  * ckontros waves @ Scott.
[21:37] <holstein> ckontros: nothing new really
[21:37] <holstein> we were just discussing gnome3
[21:37] <holstein> and unity of course
[21:37] <holstein> as options
[21:37] <holstein> *and KDE
[21:37]  * scott-work_ has to talk to boss a bit, be back
[21:38] <ckontros> ailo: For 11.10 Unity and GNOME 3 simply arent an option. IMO.
[21:38] <ailo> ckontros, Why so?
[21:38] <ckontros> Even long-term, I do not feel they fit out users use-case.
[21:38] <holstein> the valid argument is that a move to XFCE doesnt feel like a step forward
[21:39] <holstein> UI-wise
[21:39] <ckontros> Does it have to be?
[21:39] <holstein> right
[21:39]  * ckontros missed that memo.
[21:39] <holstein> thats the question
[21:39] <ailo> I think we should find out. Gnome3 just came out. Unity is under heavy development. At least regarding Gnome3, I feel, it would not be a huge step.
[21:40] <ckontros> holstein: IMO, no. It doesnt need to be.
[21:41] <ckontros> Like mentioned in the meeting, there seems to be the move to develop a desktop enviornmet where 1 app is the focus. Not multitasking.
[21:41] <ckontros> Which, in the worls of audio work, doesnt happen.
[21:41] <ckontros> *world.
[21:41] <ailo> From looking at Gnome3, it looks very similar to Gnome2, except it has a new menu system. There's no theming yet, and one would need to find out how the menu can be tweaked. There will be a fallback option, and soon there won't be one needed anyway.
[21:41] <holstein> personally
[21:41] <holstein> i like the XFCE idea
[21:42] <holstein> i think its lighter
[21:42] <holstein> and more appropriate
[21:42] <holstein> but, i also think thats a valid argument
[21:42] <holstein> we are not moving forward to anything more modern
[21:42] <ailo> ckontros, I don't think that is the case with Gnome3. It is very much a multitasking desktop. With multiple windows and workspaces
[21:42] <ckontros> ailo: Its not so much about looks. Its about how windows/apps are managed.
[21:42] <scott-work_> ack, back...we have a big, big project submitting soon, and i'm getting dragged into it
[21:42]  * scott-work_ is reading backscroll now
[21:43] <ckontros> No problen Scott.
[21:44] <ckontros> ailo: For 11.10 I also feel GNOME-Shell in Ubuntu will not be what is will be in other distros  because of Canonical going with Unity.
[21:44] <ailo> Unity, I have hardly tried, so I can't form an opinion on that at all.
[21:44] <ckontros> I already know Unity and GNOME-Shell will not happily run together in 11.04.
[21:45] <ailo> I think we should do what scott-work_ suggested. Try gnome3 with Ubuntu Studio packages and see how it flies. The same with Unity.
[21:45] <ailo> That's all I'm rooting for, to try them out
[21:46] <ailo> Or, is rooting not the right term? :P
[21:46] <holstein> yeah, im comfortable with doing some research
[21:47] <holstein> im also comfortable with planning XFCE for 11.04
[21:47] <ckontros> "Try" in what sense? *note I've been tinkering with both with many of our apps and found it to massively interrupt my workflow.
[21:47] <holstein> assuming we could change to gnome3 after that as some point
[21:47] <holstein> if we wanted
[21:48] <ckontros> I believe XFCE (which will get GTK updates im sure) will offer the the best transition.
[21:48] <ckontros> (for everyone)
[21:48] <ckontros> Remember we're not a desktop OS. We're very niche and shoud cater to our users workflows.
[21:49] <holstein> ckontros: agreed
[21:49] <ckontros> Whereas Ubuntu can afford to mix things up a bit more.
[21:49] <holstein> i also think we should consider the users that come from ubuntu
[21:49] <ailo> holstein, I agree with that.
[21:49] <holstein> and have certain expectations
[21:49] <ckontros> So please feel free to post to the thread I'll most likely post tomorrow. :)
[21:49] <holstein> not that we have to cater to them
[21:49] <holstein> but, we are at the beginnings of a big move
[21:50] <holstein> and i think its healthy to explore options
[21:50] <holstein> and discuss
[21:51] <ailo> I would at least want to try things out before I form an opinion. Would be good to start now, I guess.
[21:51] <ckontros> One big issue I see so far with going w/XFCE without panels (just AWN) is that there's no network-manager applet for AWN. Otherwise, most things seem to be replaceable with AWN.
[21:51] <ailo> ckontros, Why AWN?
[21:51] <ckontros> So, if we can solve that it might be best to take on the new Xubuntu layout altogether.
[21:52] <holstein> yeah, im not a fan of 'no panel'
[21:52] <holstein> thats way different than what most people are used to seeing
[21:52] <ckontros> ailo: Did you read back the notes from the meeting?
[21:52] <holstein> im open to exploring AWN though
[21:52] <holstein> because its slick looking
[21:53] <holstein> but, personally, i dont need the overhead for a clickable icon
[21:53] <holstein> which is mostly what i would use it for
[21:53] <ailo> ckontros, I saw it mentioned, but I didn't read much further than that.
[21:53] <ckontros> holstein: I dont feel its so different considering the # of screenshots with folks using some sort of "dock".
[21:53] <holstein> ckontros: right, but not a dock without a panel
[21:53] <ailo> Perhaps we need testing iso's?
[21:54] <ailo> If we could arrange to get some out, perhaps we could ask for opinions too.
[21:54] <holstein> im all on board for XFCE personally
[21:55] <holstein> i just didnt know that AWN was part of the deal
[21:55] <holstein> again, im open to checking it out though
[21:55] <ckontros> holstein: Sure. Will be different, but slick. ;) And honestly, this is an area where I feel less strongly. (whereas I feel the move to XFCE is totally the right one)
[21:56] <ckontros> ailo: Please let me set up a base conversation first. GEt ideas going, then I can change the seeds to get disks built from Canonical directly.
[21:56] <holstein> ckontros: COOL
[21:56] <holstein> yeah, that might be helpful
[21:56] <holstein> wouldnt need to have much in there really
[21:56] <ckontros> This will also take discussion w/the Edubuntu folks as they have made strides w/package selection in the GUI installer.
[21:56] <holstein> just the UI layout
[21:57] <ailo> ckontros, I was thinking we could use a testing iso with Gnome3 as well. Unity isn't hard to do, since it's already a part of Ubuntu.
[21:58] <ckontros> ailo: You free to do what you like as long as you're not touching the official Studio seeds.
[21:59] <scott-work_> back, more quick meeting about this project....like aftershocks from an earthquake
[21:59] <ckontros> scott-work_ You want me to stop chatting 'till you can get home from work? (and interact)
[21:59]  * scott-work_ is re-reading backscroll again
[22:00] <scott-work_> ckontros: nah, i should be able to focus on this for the next twenty minutes
[22:00] <ckontros> Ok.
[22:00] <ailo> If this was any other distro than Ubuntu Studio, I would agree on XFCE without blinking.
[22:01] <ckontros> ailo: Can you explain how it matters to you? (meant genuinely though it can sound confrontational)
[22:03] <ailo> ckontros, I'm just considering that Ubuntu Studio should be very broad and available to all. XFCE works, no doubt. Would Gnome3 work as good, or even better?
[22:06] <ckontros> ailo: I feel for 11.10, no. Later, maybe. KDE has come very far since its initial 4.0 release.
[22:06] <ckontros> GNOME3 Im sure will get better.
[22:07] <ckontros> Though personally Ill be switching to KDE or XFCE for my desktops for the foreseeable future.
[22:07] <scott-work_> alright, read backscroll
[22:07] <ailo> One thing that I think about sometimes is that perhaps the LTS should be recommended first, so that the releases in between don't need to be as polished.
[22:08] <scott-work_> i am curious to see how gnome3 works with studio packages, that is true
[22:08] <ailo> But, I guess, cause people want updated programs, they always go for the latest
[22:08] <scott-work_> but i think moving to xfce (via xubuntu work) offers us many advantages over others though
[22:08] <ckontros> scott-work_: "how it works" is too dam general. :) We need to ask specific questions.
[22:09] <ckontros> Generally, everything will run. :)
[22:09] <scott-work_> i have faith in what cory is doing as well for the UI with xfce
[22:09] <scott-work_> ckontros: yes, i meant more workflow
[22:10] <ckontros> scott-work_: Testing in 11.04 w/Unity will be easy enough. But GNOME3 will be availiable an official PPA but is said to break and not work w/Unity installed.
[22:10] <ckontros> So, testing there will be hard.
[22:10] <ckontros> Asking folks to break their desktops.
[22:10] <ckontros> Or simple testing installs.
[22:11] <ckontros> Which, doesnt really put things through it paces day-to-day.
[22:11] <scott-work_> would it be grossly different to install xubuntu and then add gnome3, boot into gnome3 xsession during login?
[22:11] <ckontros> Hmm... Good question.
[22:11] <scott-work_> or i could start with ubuntu studio couldn't i, then add gnome3?
[22:11] <scott-work_> i have a spare machine, i'm not worried about borking it
[22:12] <ckontros> Only thing I could imaging is some GTK oddness? IDK. :)
[22:12] <ailo> I guess one could install a minimal ubuntu first, add the PPA via terminal, and then install Gnome3, just for testing purposes
[22:12] <ckontros> Oh me either. Its just normal users Im thinking about.
[22:12] <scott-work_> but keeping it pertinent, i would expect gnome3 to peform at best the same as gnome2...so no real benefit or improvement
[22:13] <scott-work_> at worse, gnome3 could happen workflow...severely
[22:13] <ckontros> ailo: Yes. This is how I built early Studio setups and even some of my desktops.
[22:13] <scott-work_> but xubuntu most likely wouldn't happen workflows
[22:13] <scott-work_> and xubuntu has many positives about that other DE will not provide
[22:13] <ckontros> scott-work_: I know the RAM requiremtnts are quite a bit higher but shouldnt be an issue for Studio folks.
[22:14] <scott-work_> i am certainly leaning towards xubuntu because of those benefits
[22:15] <scott-work_> using xfce would also certainly be sustainable
[22:15] <ckontros> Ok. Im gonna chill for the rest of the night. Ill get that email together and post it sometime tomorrow. I'm still on Freenode if anyone needs to PM.
[22:16] <scott-work_> ckontros: i'll catch you later tonight then :)
[22:16] <ckontros> np
[22:16] <scott-work_> bump it, i'm going home too then :P
[22:17] <ailo> Exiting times..
[22:18] <ailo> exciting*
[22:18] <holstein> exit-ing too apparently ;)
[22:19] <ailo> holstein, Lucky choice of words
[22:45] <ailo> One thing I'm definitely doing for natty+1 is I'm devoting some time on -controls. That's a promise.