=== CensoredBiscuit is now known as sadface === sadface is now known as CensoredBiscuit === CensoredBiscuit is now known as Gorbachev === Gorbachev is now known as CensoredBiscuit === API is now known as Guest31307 [12:06] Pendulum: should be an email from yaili to approve in a sec [12:08] ok [12:09] AlanBell: do you mean to the ML? [12:09] because I don't have ML access [12:09] *admin [12:09] ah, ok [12:10] just TheMuso who is asleep [12:10] yaili: did it get held for approval? [12:11] Whats up? [12:12] oh, not asleep! [12:12] Nope. [12:12] Its 9:12PM here atm. [12:13] should be a mail to the mailing list from Inayaili [12:13] or will be soon [12:13] ok thanks. [12:14] * AlanBell says G'day to TheMuso [12:14] I appreciate a heads up like that, because the vast majority of stuff that hits the moderatino queue is spam, and I have a habbit of dumping the entire lot, even though there was a legit message in there that I do remember seeing. [12:16] Ok coming through any minute. [12:17] the thrust of the mail is that yaili will be going through some ubuntu.com changes with us at 2:30 UK time (that is in 2:15 from now) [12:17] AlanBell: I did just get the mail :) [12:17] UndiFineD: hajour ^^ [12:17] Right, I'll be in bed by then. [12:18] * AlanBell is off out for lunch, laters all === jackneill is now known as Jackneill [14:38] AlanBell: hello? [14:39] hello [14:39] AlanBell: shall we do this? [14:39] yes, lets [14:40] Pendulum: charlie-tca o/ [14:40] good morning [14:40] ok, so the gist of this is that we're redesigning some sections of ubuntu.com and we know there's been some problems with accessibility [14:41] although we can't make all the changes necessary to improve the site, as we're dealing with a lot of legacy code and bad implementations [14:41] it's time we have a proper chat about the main issues that have been identified [14:41] and take a quick look at the the new designs to see what concerns you might have regarding that [14:41] does this make sense? [14:41] hiya [14:41] does to me [14:41] yaili: just as an FYI, this is a logged channel [14:42] o/ [14:42] yes, AlanBell informed me :) [14:42] (someone pointed out that I should make sure you knew it had public logs) [14:42] Pendulum: thanks :) [14:42] sounds good to me :) [14:42] sorry just awake [14:43] right, so here is one of the new designs, not 100% finalised, mind you: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/103530/features-overview-12.png [14:43] two notes: 1. the font size has been increased to 13px, we still can't make sizes relative for this release [14:44] the background has been changed, and I know you've had concerns with the contrast before [14:44] most of the text is on white though, and with the font size increase I'd like to know a bit more about this issue, if possible [14:45] text on white is good [14:45] hello [14:46] something we thought about was alternate stylesheets, does anyone have an opinion on these? [14:46] UndiFineD: hello [14:46] I like alternate stylesheets :D [14:46] That reads much better [14:46] is the font size able to increase more?/ [14:47] Pendulum: what do you think would be important on an alternate stylesheet? [14:47] yaili: choice of font size and a couple options for colour combinations [14:47] hajour: what do you mean? make it larger overall? or is it in %s or ems? [14:47] for example, there's a condition called Irlen's Syndrome where you can't read a white background so a pale purple (or even a very pale orange) is better [14:48] app for to be able choose colour and front sizes [14:48] also, on the main theme, is there any way to make the white on orange text stand out a little more? [14:48] Pendulum: you mean on the navigation? [14:49] it is tough to be WCAG compliant, but alternate stylesheets would help [14:49] the orange need to be darker if you use white fonts.i could not read it and still not [14:50] hajour: I think we're trying to move away from white on orange, especially for big blocks of text [14:50] she finds that a big relief [14:51] UndiFineD: when we were looking at the palette, we did test this colour combination, on Snook's contrast checker, and it passes all 3 levels, what I was told is that automatic tests are of course not the same as a user with visual impairments [14:52] yeah it absolutely depends on the individual [14:53] yaili: yes [14:53] sorry i am saying to UndiFineD what i want to say.my meds do not wwork yet and its very hard to write now and i write very slow now [14:53] hajour: no worries [14:53] so UndiFineD write what i say sometimes [14:54] hajour: ok [14:55] ok, so I think we have an idea of what the biggest issues on the site are, font-resizing, colour contrast [14:55] but that's the visual layer [14:55] do you have any comments regarding the actual markup? [14:56] we know that it isn't as clean as we'd like [14:56] The line starting with overview? Is that really a line of links in black text? [14:56] also, we need to create a proper print style sheet :) [14:57] hajour, is having difficulties reading sentences after one another [14:57] UndiFineD: yes, that has been left as it is now. I think we'll need to do some testing because we're afraid thos emight go unnoticed [14:58] UndiFineD: which sentences? [14:58] There is no change of contrast to define the links vs text at all? [14:58] Super-fast and great-looking, Ubuntu is a secure, intuitive operating system that powers desktops, servers, netbooks and laptops. Ubuntu is, and always will be, absolutely free. [14:59] so, except for navigation, which still needs to be sorted, the links rationale is orange is it's headings, loose text, etc., if it's inline with text, we're adding a bottom border, rather than underlined, but I don't think that is visible in this mockup [14:59] charlie-tca: ^ [15:00] yaili, you just lost hajour [15:00] to much in one sentence [15:00] UndiFineD: in the homepage of the current site? [15:00] The links appear to be much smaller fonts the the text, which is going to make them much harder to read [15:00] no in your previous sentence [15:01] UndiFineD: oh sorry, I'll make them shorter :( [15:01] :) [15:01] charlie-tca: correct, thanks for pointing that out, making a note [15:02] What is the possiblity of looking at maybe bold fonts for links? [15:02] what is your view on in-browser alternate style sheets vs. in-website? [15:02] yaili, and what about spoken text ? [15:02] charlie-tca: it might be an option [15:03] UndiFineD: what do you mean? [15:03] If it allows me to have the text grow better, and change the links to something visible, I have no preference on where or how it happens. [15:03] so a visitor can listen to the text on the site [15:04] Does in-browser style sheet mean I could easily change things to make it easier for me, individually? [15:04] pages should be read as a book [15:05] charlie-tca: I think with in-browser you basically have a few options of different style sheets [15:05] blind people need on this moment very much help to install ubuntu. if you make a spoken audio or vid. they dont need so much help to go read or they use ubuntu [15:05] charlie-tca: you change it in the View option, I think, for example in Firefox [15:06] hajour: on the install page? [15:06] That would be fine, if those who need it the most can get to it easily. [15:06] this also is needed on the install page [15:06] There seems to be something that says "if you really need this, we will hide it for you". [15:07] charlie-tca: what do you mean? [15:08] there are some strange links in the tab order on ubuntu.com around the banner slider thing [15:08] AlanBell: ah I see [15:08] If there is an alternate style sheet in the browser, and those with visually disability have to search all over to find it, we are catering to the able body person. [15:08] just going through it in firefox with orca [15:09] charlie-tca: I see [15:09] It leave the partially blind with the difficulty of trying to search for it [15:09] AlanBell: the homepage is being redesigned too [15:09] is there a option to choose style sheet ? i not have found it . [15:10] hajour: doesn't exist yet [15:10] a ok [15:10] If we make an alternate style sheet, it should be very easy to find [15:12] o and a spoken audio like spoken book by classes info should be very nice to [15:12] in Firefox that is under View > Page Style [15:12] i also mean by the program classes [15:13] hajour: can you think of a website that does that nicely, it would be good to see good examples [15:13] i don't think its somewwhere allready [15:14] Should that happen, I would hope the reference for it would be on this page also. [15:14] but it would be awesome if it would come by ubuntu [15:14] :) [15:14] charlie-tca: you mean the homepage? [15:15] Yes, sorry. Where you have the paragraph about accessibility being there, a sentence about style sheets in the browser would be helpful. [15:15] (if it comes about) [15:16] charlie-tca: so if we do add one or a couple of alternative stylesheets, what colour combinations do you think should take priority? low contrast, high contrast, …? [15:17] I would think we want low contrast, high contrast, and high contrast inverted to start with [15:17] That gives combinations that cover about 90% of the visually disabled [15:18] : http://www.nvbs.nl/ lees voor [15:18] yaili, I am in the process of developing these pages: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml [15:18] or uitgebreid voorlezen === Cheri703_ is now known as Cheri703 [15:18] nice example leoquant [15:18] that page reads to the user [15:18] at "lees voor" [15:19] thanks [15:19] is there also a english version from that? [15:20] you need to ppay for that leoquant [15:20] hajour, sure, there are also sites how to build audio into websites [15:20] ok nice [15:21] because we can understand that but many from ubuntu don't [15:21] hajour, you need to be a member to play the read/audio part of the site? hmmm [15:21] have you had any problems with using different browsers? [15:22] the search engine would be more improved [15:22] hajour: ah yes, that is on the list :) [15:22] it is terrible [15:22] its very hard to find a wiki from a person. [15:23] yaili: yes, different browsers are an issue. Firefox is the overall best one so far. [15:23] midori did away with the menu bar [15:23] also it costed me very much time to find the pages from classes [15:23] chromium is failing badly [15:23] epiphany I haven't tried this release [15:23] for example [15:24] last from chromium had freeze very often my notebook. [15:24] you need to ppay for that leoquant thats not true by the way [15:24] because of that i could not do internet banking [15:25] it says by me for to be able to use that you need to pay 32 euro a year leoquant [15:26] i now only use firefox at the moment [15:26] no you could hear the info without costs, i hear it loud and clear [15:26] yes the info from what it do [15:27] hajour: we've been testing on Firefox 3+, Safari, Chrome, Opera—latest versions, IE6+ [15:27] not everything looks exactly the same though, surely [15:27] the problem whit chromium comes on the moment there comes a frame in a frame [15:28] then the trouble start [15:28] i think its a problem whit some older pc s and notebooks [15:29] because my daughters use unbuntu and i lubuntu . [15:29] we have the same problems whit chromium browser [15:29] so it have nothing to do with lubuntu [15:29] i have test it out [15:30] I need to go soon, if you had to list the top 3 things that could be improved in our sites [15:30] re: accessibility [15:30] what would those be? [15:30] the only one here at home who had not that problem was UndiFineD but he cot a new pc [15:30] as they exist or that new page? [15:31] 1 app for choose colour fonts. [15:31] 2 audio hit explane how to install ubuntu [15:31] 3 possibility choose sdtyle sheet [15:31] resizable page, instead of fixed width [15:31] contrast between text and background [15:32] good one charlie-tca [15:32] When I grow the fonts big, the fixed width page screws the text readability up [15:32] charlie-tca: do you mean setting the width in relative size or making it go full width? [15:32] o and i hope you go try to get audio by classes info . [15:33] Making the width variable, so when text grows to, say 25 or 30pt, I don't have words split between lines because the page is too narrow [15:34] charlie-tca: but if the CSS is made well enough, will the split lines be a problem? [15:34] yes that problem i have to charlie-tca [15:34] because sometimes wouldn't the user want to just resize the text? [15:34] 1. stylesheets, 2. fontsize, 3. spoken text [15:34] without adding horizontal scrolling? [15:34] yes, because the a long word won't fit the narrow page, no matter how good the css is [15:35] and that can be solved by not use so much long lines [15:35] try hitting Ctrl++ about 10 times on the page [15:35] and not attache lines to each other [15:35] charlie-tca: is that a scenario that happens often? [15:35] yes [15:35] also do not use to much difficult english words. [15:35] My minimum fonts are set to 16pt now [15:35] and yet, many times, I have to zoom to see the words [15:36] not all people who want to use ubuntu can read very good english [15:36] yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php [15:36] size 16 here to [15:36] Your page is written in 12 and 13pt fonts, I have to start at 16pt [15:36] charlie-tca: so you think the horizontal scrolling that comes with completely zoomed in pages is not a problem in itself? [15:37] The horizontal scrolling is not as much of a problem as a word that splits itself into two lines [15:37] It is very hard to read words that are not all on the same line. [15:37] charlie-tca: ok [15:38] charlie-tca: I see [15:38] it is like reading ac [15:38] ce [15:38] ss [15:38] or [15:38] ie [15:38] s [15:38] hajour: you said "i hope you go try to get audio by classes info" [15:38] hajour: I don't understand :( [15:38] yes [15:39] people who want to learn design or program by example . but not can read good or have eye problems. use on schools sopken books [15:40] in classes in ubuntu all comes later on wiki s for remember [15:40] but very hard to read for a part of the people [15:40] Known Problems(10) Likely Problems (0) Potential Problems (468) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562) [15:41] hajour: that's not really the same issue as what we're talking about with the website. [15:41] it will make the wall smaller to walk over.for to do more in ubuntu.and get the feeling to can help really more [15:41] yaili: I apologize if I am come across as just complaining. [15:41] Known Problems(4) Likely Problems (25) Potential Problems (364) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562) [15:42] that is from WCAG and Stanca Act [15:42] for to be able learning by eexample solve bugs [15:42] charlie-tca: not complaining, you're being helpful [15:42] charlie-tca: I have to apologise because we won't have time to make many of these changes in time for release, but we want to know what we should include in our plans [15:43] If we can get some things done, we are happy for the most part. [15:43] btw yaili try to make why tto use ubuntu in so easy as possible english words.a child must be able to read it.ubuntu is world wide. [15:43] in terms of the background/contrast, is there a more reliable tool that we can refer to? [15:43] yaili, I think it is already great having you here, it means things can improve [15:43] We just find it frustrating when we can't read the official website without great difficulty [15:43] which software can I install for a speaking training ? [15:44] not all people can read good english [15:44] I have not found any reliable tool for contrast. [15:44] AlanBell: do you know of any? [15:44] UndiFineD: thanks :) [15:44] Over two days come guidedog-school and guide dog on visit by me [15:44] charlie-tca: it can probably be done with compiz filters [15:47] sorry for having so much remarks on the site yaili [15:48] hajour: no, I think we should be sorry :) you've been trying to help and providing feedback, we just need to start incorporating that in the processes rather than making it an afterthought [15:48] oh [15:48] sorry for the long line :( [15:49] np my meds starting to work and it is going some easier now [15:50] also typing.its still not very fast because i type whit only 1 finger [15:50] yaili, as I pointed out with the checker, there are many issues with the current css for ubuntu.com [15:50] the html issues are mostly easily resolved === jono_ is now known as jono [15:51] UndiFineD: yes, that's something we need to do gradually though, as it is tied with the implementation of drupal, and that needs to be updated [15:52] UndiFineD: same for CSS, as you can see it's importing many unnecessary style sheets [15:53] so no online contrast checker that is reliable? that would be extremely helpful… [15:53] yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php [15:53] that helps me a lot [15:53] UndiFineD: ah of course, thanks :) [15:53] it also checks for contrast a bit [15:54] UndiFineD, is also busy to make a full accessible website for speechcontrol :) [15:54] :) [15:56] ok, I need to go now, this was great, thank you [15:56] o for i forget Pendulum i can be less around tomorrow because i need to arrange things like meds passport and passport for to go to uds in may [15:57] I'll be on the channel anyway [15:57] yaili, feel free to drop back in any time [15:57] i hope i have helped [15:57] UndiFineD: sure [15:57] hajour: immensely, thanks [15:57] yaili: thanks for giving us the opportunity to discuss this with you [15:57] ok nice .was a lisstle felling like only complaining :) [15:57] little i mean [15:58] bah i not must try to type faster [15:58] hajour: no worries :) [15:58] charlie-tca: thanks! [15:58] I agree, hajour [15:58] yaili: thank you so much for coming! [15:58] It is very difficult to discuss such things without feeling like I am complaining more than helping. [15:58] Pendulum: thank you :D [15:59] thank you for listen yaili [15:59] charlie-tca: well, on my side, I feel like we could do a lot more, baby steps :) [15:59] you'll have to bear with us [15:59] We will try to be patient [16:00] btw yaili if the accessibility is better i am able to get ubuntu to be used by primary schools 18 from it in netherland [16:00] for to start [16:00] I think it is a lot to throw at you, and yet, we sometimes feel like things are crawling too slow. [16:01] charlie-tca: so do we, there's things we can definitely do more easily than others [16:02] well, I'm off for today, have great day, and thanks [16:02] because i am also busy to get schools go use ubuntu/edubuntu [16:03] ok have a nice day by yaili [16:18] erkan^, you allready had get a answer on your question from which software to use for speaking training ? [16:18] fyes [16:18] *yes [16:19] sorry [16:19] no, hajour [16:19] sorry for the delay in answering erkan^ but needed to concentrate wile my meds not where working almost [16:20] i don't care, i have seen that you had busy with another cliënt speak (-: [16:20] erkan^: the guide-dog is great news for you [16:20] ok just wanted to let you now the reason erkan^ :) [16:21] yes, that is quick. i thought that next years , charlie-tca (-: [16:21] yes very good that you get a guide dog erkan^ [16:21] I will wait normal 2 years , but i take a guide dog after 11 mouths [16:21] Wonderful! [16:22] what can the guide dog do for you out side the walking part [16:22] erkan^, ^ [16:22] Sometimes things do work out for us. [16:22] commando [16:22] by example ? [16:23] yes, but i have problem speak --> commando )-: i take a logopedie. but i want on computer too for speaking traing [16:23] over, vooraan, links, rechts, rechtsom, ook naam noemen, enzovoort [16:23] zoek paal [16:23] UndiFineD, says congrats erkan^ [16:23] thank you :) [16:24] but first see or i and guide dog fit good [16:25] charlie-tca, and AlanBell is there already a speak program what is able for simple commands to speak out ? [16:25] yes i understand erkan^ [16:26] (-: [16:26] we still wworking on speechcontrol erkan^ [16:27] yes i know [16:27] when you will need it erkan^ ? [16:27] but i want simple speaking, without difficult words [16:27] no idea, next week i have an appointment with a logopedie [16:28] yes i have ask for that above erkan^ :) [16:29] above? [16:29] just stay logged in erkan^ they read back later [16:30] eerder in chat / hier boven = above erkan^ [16:30] ja [16:31] hajour: I'm going to eat soon afterwards I go to visit. I'm at about 9 hours back, okay? [16:32] hajour: I don't know the applications that well. [16:32] ok erkan^ then i am also around again.i need to go to cook so [16:33] yaili: thanks very much (sorry, got called away for a bit at the end) [16:33] ok (-: [16:34] AlanBell: no worrries [16:35] and ok charlie-tca :) [16:35] i go eat now laters === JasonO_ is now known as JasonO === JasonO_ is now known as JasonO === API is now known as Guest2711 [20:14] I am back (-: [20:14] oh nee ik ga effe wasmachine aanzetten brb (-: [20:29] hajour, [20:29] ik ben terug [20:29] (-: [20:29] en ? [20:29] oeps sorry for dutch [20:29] I remember [20:29] I am back [20:29] and ? [20:29] (-: [20:31] hi erkan^ [20:32] i do not know what kind of software you need .thats why i had asked it to AlanBell [20:33] maybe he knows it erkan^ [20:33] but he is on away [20:34] charlie-tca, ddo you know who erkan^ can asked it about the software? [20:34] AlanBell knows the software the best [20:34] btw i am very tired and i just was preparing to go to sleep [20:35] Ask him specifically here, he will probably answer before long [20:35] erkan^, see charlie-tca answer [20:35] sorry all but i ggo sleeping [20:35] goodnight [20:36] ok [20:36] goodnight, hajour [20:36] charlie-tca, : http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001 [20:36] 370 euro :/ [20:36] goodnight erkan^ :) === Cheri703_ is now known as Cheri703 [20:37] then hi all [20:39] o/ AlanBell [20:39] Hello, AlanBell [20:39] Is there any software for speech therapy/learning? [20:40] what sort of speech therapy? [20:40] learning how to speak [20:41] for children? or for fixing a speech impediment? [20:41] Teaching a spoken language [20:41] erkan^: ^ ^ [20:42] yes [20:42] what are you trying to do? learn spoken words? [20:42] teaching an adult a foreign language? [20:43] I think he has to learn a few spoken commands for a guide dog [20:43] AlanBell: Over two days come a guide dog visit by me. I want learn that I can speak words as left, right, go, stop, etc. i have a software on computer need, than can computer control or i speak good. i am deaf too. i have a speech teacher too, but i want a software on pc. [20:43] yes charlie-tca [20:44] ok, so you can see, but are deaf? [20:44] and needs to learn simple word speech [20:44] i can littel see [20:44] but on computer i have not problem [20:44] yes i am deaf AlanBell [20:45] have you expierence with deaf people, AlanBell ? :S [20:46] some people use Audacity for some speech therapy work, mainly copying others and dealing with stutters and stammers and timing issues [20:47] I used to work with a deaf person and one of my friends has deaf parents [20:47] ok [20:47] and when I set up astoryforbedtime.com there was quite a bit of interest from the deaf community which surprised me [20:48] but deaf parents really liked the idea of their kids listening to a mixture of voices of hearing people [20:48] because speech development for CODAs is often a bit disrupted even if the children have no hearing issues [20:49] i know CODA [20:50] Child Of Deaf Adult for those not familiar with the abbreviation [20:50] i ask you [20:50] can deaf people learn speak for a software on computer, AlanBell ? [20:51] really not sure [20:51] easy speak example "left" "right" etc.. [20:52] ow ok [20:52] i suspect youd need something that tells you how to position your lips and tongue and which ways to move them [20:53] (i find that useful when im learning another language and can't figure out how to make my mouth form the sounds necessary for the language) [20:54] when I speak, my voice probably deaf language :-S [20:56] speech command software can work with whatever sound you make, as long as you have a different sound for every command [20:58]