[12:06] <AlanBell> Pendulum: should be an email from yaili to approve in a sec
[12:08] <Pendulum> ok
[12:09] <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you mean to the ML?
[12:09] <Pendulum> because I don't have ML access
[12:09] <Pendulum> *admin
[12:09] <AlanBell> ah, ok
[12:10] <AlanBell> just TheMuso who is asleep
[12:10] <AlanBell> yaili: did it get held for approval?
[12:11] <TheMuso> Whats up?
[12:12] <AlanBell> oh, not asleep!
[12:12] <TheMuso> Nope.
[12:12] <TheMuso> Its 9:12PM here atm.
[12:13] <AlanBell> should be a mail to the mailing list from Inayaili
[12:13] <AlanBell> or will be soon
[12:13] <TheMuso> ok thanks.
[12:14]  * AlanBell says G'day to TheMuso 
[12:14] <TheMuso> I appreciate a heads up like that, because the vast majority of stuff that hits the moderatino queue is spam, and I have a habbit of dumping the entire lot, even though there was a legit message in there that I do remember seeing.
[12:16] <TheMuso> Ok coming through any minute.
[12:17] <AlanBell> the thrust of the mail is that yaili will be going through some ubuntu.com changes with us at 2:30 UK time (that is in 2:15 from now)
[12:17] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I did just get the mail :)
[12:17] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: hajour ^^
[12:17] <TheMuso> Right, I'll be in bed by then.
[12:18]  * AlanBell is off out for lunch, laters all
[14:38] <yaili> AlanBell: hello?
[14:39] <AlanBell> hello
[14:39] <yaili> AlanBell: shall we do this?
[14:39] <AlanBell> yes, lets
[14:40] <AlanBell> Pendulum: charlie-tca o/
[14:40] <charlie-tca> good morning
[14:40] <yaili> ok, so the gist of this is that we're redesigning some sections of ubuntu.com and we know there's been some problems with accessibility
[14:41] <yaili> although we can't make all the changes necessary to improve the site, as we're dealing with a lot of legacy code and bad implementations
[14:41] <yaili> it's time we have a proper chat about the main issues that have been identified
[14:41] <yaili> and take a quick look at the the new designs to see what concerns you might have regarding that
[14:41] <yaili> does this make sense?
[14:41] <Pendulum> hiya
[14:41] <AlanBell> does to me
[14:41] <Pendulum> yaili: just as an FYI, this is a logged channel
[14:42] <hajour> o/
[14:42] <yaili> yes, AlanBell informed me :)
[14:42] <Pendulum> (someone pointed out that I should make sure you knew it had public logs)
[14:42] <yaili> Pendulum: thanks :)
[14:42] <Pendulum> sounds good to me :)
[14:42] <hajour> sorry just awake
[14:43] <yaili> right, so here is one of the new designs, not 100% finalised, mind you: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/103530/features-overview-12.png
[14:43] <yaili> two notes: 1. the font size has been increased to 13px, we still can't make sizes relative for this release
[14:44] <yaili> the background has been changed, and I know you've had concerns with the contrast before
[14:44] <yaili> most of the text is on white though, and with the font size increase I'd like to know a bit more about this issue, if possible
[14:45] <AlanBell> text on white is good
[14:45] <UndiFineD> hello
[14:46] <yaili> something we thought about was alternate stylesheets, does anyone have an opinion on these?
[14:46] <yaili> UndiFineD: hello
[14:46] <Pendulum> I like alternate stylesheets :D
[14:46] <charlie-tca> That reads much better
[14:46] <hajour> is the font size able to increase more?/
[14:47] <yaili> Pendulum: what do you think would be important on an alternate stylesheet?
[14:47] <Pendulum> yaili: choice of font size and a couple options for colour combinations
[14:47] <yaili> hajour: what do you mean? make it larger overall? or is it in %s or ems?
[14:47] <Pendulum> for example, there's a condition called Irlen's Syndrome where you can't read a white background so a pale purple (or even a very pale orange) is better
[14:48] <hajour> app for to be able choose colour and front sizes
[14:48] <Pendulum> also, on the main theme, is there any way to make the white on orange text stand out a little more?
[14:48] <yaili> Pendulum: you mean on the navigation?
[14:49] <UndiFineD> it is tough to be WCAG compliant, but alternate stylesheets would help
[14:49] <hajour> the orange need to be darker if you use white fonts.i could not read it and still not
[14:50] <yaili> hajour: I think we're trying to move away from white on orange, especially for big blocks of text
[14:50] <UndiFineD> she finds that a big relief
[14:51] <yaili> UndiFineD: when we were looking at the palette, we did test this colour combination, on Snook's contrast checker, and it passes all 3 levels, what I was told is that automatic tests are of course not the same as a user with visual impairments
[14:52] <UndiFineD> yeah it absolutely depends on the individual
[14:53] <Pendulum> yaili: yes
[14:53] <hajour> sorry i am saying to UndiFineD  what i want to say.my meds do not wwork yet and its very hard to write now and i write very slow now
[14:53] <yaili> hajour: no worries
[14:53] <hajour> so UndiFineD  write what i say sometimes
[14:54] <yaili> hajour: ok
[14:55] <yaili> ok, so I think we have an idea of what the biggest issues on the site are, font-resizing, colour contrast
[14:55] <yaili> but that's the visual layer
[14:55] <yaili> do you have any comments regarding the actual markup?
[14:56] <yaili> we know that it isn't as clean as we'd like
[14:56] <charlie-tca> The line starting with overview? Is that really a line of links in black text?
[14:56] <yaili> also, we need to create a proper print style sheet :)
[14:57] <UndiFineD> hajour, is having difficulties reading sentences after one another
[14:57] <yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that has been left as it is now. I think we'll need to do some testing because we're afraid thos emight go unnoticed
[14:58] <yaili> UndiFineD: which sentences?
[14:58] <charlie-tca> There is no change of contrast to define the links vs text at all?
[14:58] <UndiFineD> Super-fast and great-looking, Ubuntu is a secure, intuitive operating system that powers desktops, servers, netbooks and laptops. Ubuntu is, and always will be, absolutely free.
[14:59] <yaili> so, except for navigation, which still needs to be sorted, the links rationale is orange is it's headings, loose text, etc., if it's inline with text, we're adding a bottom border, rather than underlined, but I don't think that is visible in this mockup
[14:59] <yaili> charlie-tca: ^
[15:00] <UndiFineD> yaili, you just lost hajour 
[15:00] <UndiFineD> to much in one sentence
[15:00] <yaili> UndiFineD: in the homepage of the current site?
[15:00] <charlie-tca> The links appear to be much smaller fonts the the text, which is going to make them much harder to read
[15:00] <UndiFineD> no in your previous sentence
[15:01] <yaili> UndiFineD: oh sorry, I'll make them shorter :(
[15:01] <UndiFineD> :)
[15:01] <yaili> charlie-tca: correct, thanks for pointing that out, making a note
[15:02] <charlie-tca> What is the possiblity of looking at maybe bold fonts for links?
[15:02] <yaili> what is your view on in-browser alternate style sheets vs. in-website?
[15:02] <UndiFineD> yaili, and what about spoken text ?
[15:02] <yaili> charlie-tca: it might be an option
[15:03] <yaili> UndiFineD: what do you mean?
[15:03] <charlie-tca> If it allows me to have the text grow better, and change the links to something visible, I have no preference on where or how it happens.
[15:03] <UndiFineD> so a visitor can listen to the text on the site
[15:04] <charlie-tca> Does in-browser style sheet mean I could easily change things to make it easier for me, individually?
[15:04] <UndiFineD> pages should be read as a book
[15:05] <yaili> charlie-tca: I think with in-browser you basically have a few options of different style sheets
[15:05] <hajour> blind people need on this moment very much help to install ubuntu. if you make a spoken audio or vid. they dont need so much help to go read or they use ubuntu
[15:05] <yaili> charlie-tca: you change it in the View option, I think, for example in Firefox
[15:06] <yaili> hajour: on the install page?
[15:06] <charlie-tca> That would be fine, if those who need it the most can get to it easily. 
[15:06] <hajour> this also is needed on the install page
[15:06] <charlie-tca> There seems to be something that says "if you really need this, we will hide it for you". 
[15:07] <yaili> charlie-tca: what do you mean?
[15:08] <AlanBell> there are some strange links in the tab order on ubuntu.com around the banner slider thing
[15:08] <yaili> AlanBell: ah I see
[15:08] <charlie-tca> If there is an alternate style sheet in the browser, and those with visually disability have to search all over to find it, we are catering to the able body person. 
[15:08] <AlanBell> just going through it in firefox with orca
[15:09] <yaili> charlie-tca: I see
[15:09] <charlie-tca> It leave the partially blind with the difficulty of trying to search for it
[15:09] <yaili> AlanBell: the homepage is being redesigned too
[15:09] <hajour> is there a option to choose style  sheet ? i not have found it .
[15:10] <charlie-tca> hajour: doesn't exist yet
[15:10] <hajour> a ok
[15:10] <charlie-tca> If we make an alternate style sheet, it should be very easy to find
[15:12] <hajour> o and a spoken audio like spoken book by classes info should be very nice to
[15:12] <yaili>  in Firefox that is under View > Page Style
[15:12] <hajour> i also mean by the program classes
[15:13] <yaili> hajour: can you think of a website that does that nicely, it would be good to see good examples
[15:13] <hajour> i don't think its somewwhere allready
[15:14] <charlie-tca> Should that happen, I would hope the reference for it would be on this page also. 
[15:14] <hajour> but it would be awesome if it would come by ubuntu
[15:14] <yaili> :)
[15:14] <yaili> charlie-tca: you mean the homepage?
[15:15] <charlie-tca> Yes, sorry. Where you have the paragraph about accessibility being there, a sentence about style sheets in the browser would be helpful.
[15:15] <charlie-tca> (if it comes about)
[15:16] <yaili> charlie-tca: so if we do add one or a couple of alternative stylesheets, what colour combinations do you think should take priority? low contrast, high contrast, …?
[15:17] <charlie-tca> I would think we want low contrast, high contrast, and high contrast inverted to start with
[15:17] <charlie-tca> That gives combinations that cover about 90% of the visually disabled
[15:18] <leoquant> : http://www.nvbs.nl/  lees voor
[15:18] <UndiFineD> yaili, I am in the process of developing these pages: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml
[15:18] <leoquant> or uitgebreid voorlezen
[15:18] <UndiFineD> nice example leoquant 
[15:18] <UndiFineD> that page reads to the user
[15:18] <UndiFineD> at "lees voor"
[15:19] <yaili> thanks
[15:19] <hajour> is there also a english version from that?
[15:20] <hajour> you need to ppay for that leoquant 
[15:20] <leoquant> hajour, sure, there are also sites how to build audio into websites
[15:20] <hajour> ok nice
[15:21] <hajour> because we can understand that but many from ubuntu don't
[15:21] <leoquant> hajour, you need to be a member to play the read/audio part of the site? hmmm
[15:21] <yaili> have you had any problems with using different browsers?
[15:22] <hajour> the search engine would be more improved
[15:22] <yaili> hajour: ah yes, that is on the list :)
[15:22] <yaili> it is terrible
[15:22] <hajour> its very hard to find a wiki from a person.
[15:23] <charlie-tca> yaili: yes, different browsers are an issue. Firefox is the overall best one so far.
[15:23] <charlie-tca> midori did away with the menu bar
[15:23] <hajour> also it costed me very much time to find the pages from classes
[15:23] <charlie-tca> chromium is failing badly
[15:23] <charlie-tca> epiphany I haven't tried this release
[15:23] <hajour> for example
[15:24] <hajour> last from chromium had freeze very often my notebook.
 you need to ppay for that leoquant  thats  not true by the way
[15:24] <hajour> because of that i could not do internet banking
[15:25] <hajour> it says by me for to be able to use that you need to pay 32 euro a year leoquant 
[15:26] <hajour> i now only use firefox at the moment
[15:26] <leoquant> no you could hear the info without costs, i hear it loud and clear
[15:26] <hajour> yes the info from what it do
[15:27] <yaili> hajour: we've been testing on Firefox 3+, Safari, Chrome, Opera—latest versions, IE6+
[15:27] <yaili> not everything looks exactly the same though, surely
[15:27] <hajour> the problem whit chromium comes on the moment there comes a frame in a frame
[15:28] <hajour> then the trouble start
[15:28] <hajour> i think its a problem whit some older pc s and notebooks
[15:29] <hajour> because my daughters use unbuntu and i lubuntu .
[15:29] <hajour> we have the same problems whit chromium browser
[15:29] <hajour> so it have nothing to do with lubuntu
[15:29] <hajour> i have test it out
[15:30] <yaili> I need to go soon, if you had to list the top 3 things that could be improved in our sites
[15:30] <yaili> re: accessibility
[15:30] <yaili> what would those be?
[15:30] <hajour> the only one here at home who had not that problem was UndiFineD  but he cot a new pc
[15:30] <charlie-tca> as they exist or that new page?
[15:31] <hajour> 1 app for choose colour fonts.
[15:31] <hajour> 2 audio hit explane how to install ubuntu
[15:31] <hajour> 3 possibility choose sdtyle sheet
[15:31] <charlie-tca> resizable page, instead of fixed width
[15:31] <charlie-tca> contrast between text and background
[15:32] <hajour> good one charlie-tca 
[15:32] <charlie-tca> When I grow the fonts big, the fixed width page screws the text readability up
[15:32] <yaili> charlie-tca: do you mean setting the width in relative size or making it go full width?
[15:32] <hajour> o and i hope you go try to get audio by classes info .
[15:33] <charlie-tca> Making the width variable, so when text grows to, say 25 or 30pt, I don't have words split between lines because the page is too narrow
[15:34] <yaili> charlie-tca: but if the CSS is made well enough, will the split lines be a problem?
[15:34] <hajour> yes that problem i have to charlie-tca 
[15:34] <yaili> because sometimes wouldn't the user want to just resize the text?
[15:34] <UndiFineD> 1. stylesheets, 2. fontsize, 3. spoken text
[15:34] <yaili> without adding horizontal scrolling?
[15:34] <charlie-tca> yes, because the a long word won't fit the narrow page, no matter how good the css is
[15:35] <hajour> and that can be solved by not use so much long lines
[15:35] <charlie-tca> try hitting Ctrl++ about 10 times on the page
[15:35] <hajour> and not attache lines to each other
[15:35] <yaili> charlie-tca: is that a scenario that happens often?
[15:35] <charlie-tca> yes
[15:35] <hajour> also do not use to much difficult english words.
[15:35] <charlie-tca> My minimum fonts are set to 16pt now
[15:35] <charlie-tca> and yet, many times, I have to zoom to see the words
[15:36] <hajour> not all people who want to use ubuntu can read very good english
[15:36] <UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
[15:36] <hajour> size 16 here to
[15:36] <charlie-tca> Your page is written in 12 and 13pt fonts, I have to start at 16pt
[15:36] <yaili> charlie-tca: so you think the horizontal scrolling that comes with completely zoomed in pages is not a problem in itself?
[15:37] <charlie-tca> The horizontal scrolling is not as much of a problem as a word that splits itself into two lines
[15:37] <charlie-tca> It is very hard to read words that are not all on the same line. 
[15:37] <yaili> charlie-tca: ok
[15:38] <yaili> charlie-tca: I see
[15:38] <charlie-tca> it is like reading ac
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ce
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ss
[15:38] <charlie-tca> or
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ie
[15:38] <charlie-tca> s
[15:38] <yaili> hajour: you said "i hope you go try to get audio by classes info"
[15:38] <yaili> hajour: I don't understand :(
[15:38] <hajour> yes
[15:39] <hajour> people who want to learn design or program by example . but not can read good or have eye problems. use on schools sopken books
[15:40] <hajour> in classes in ubuntu all comes later on wiki s for remember
[15:40] <hajour> but very hard to read for a part of the people
[15:40] <UndiFineD> Known Problems(10) Likely Problems (0) Potential Problems (468) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
[15:41] <Pendulum> hajour: that's not really the same issue as what we're talking about with the website.
[15:41] <hajour> it will make the wall smaller to walk over.for to do more in ubuntu.and get the feeling to can help really  more
[15:41] <charlie-tca> yaili: I apologize if I am come across as just complaining. 
[15:41] <UndiFineD> Known Problems(4) Likely Problems (25) Potential Problems (364) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
[15:42] <UndiFineD> that is from WCAG and Stanca Act
[15:42] <hajour> for to be able learning by eexample solve bugs
[15:42] <yaili> charlie-tca: not complaining, you're being helpful
[15:42] <yaili> charlie-tca: I have to apologise because we won't have time to make many of these changes in time for release, but we want to know what we should include in our plans
[15:43] <charlie-tca> If we can get some things done, we are happy for the most part.
[15:43] <hajour> btw yaili  try to make why tto use ubuntu in so easy as possible english words.a child must be able to read it.ubuntu is world wide.
[15:43] <yaili> in terms of the background/contrast, is there a more reliable tool that we can refer to?
[15:43] <UndiFineD> yaili, I think it is already great having you here, it means things can improve
[15:43] <charlie-tca> We just find it frustrating when we can't read the official website without great difficulty
[15:43] <erkan^> which software can I install for a speaking training ?
[15:44] <hajour> not all people can read good english
[15:44] <charlie-tca> I have not found any reliable tool for contrast. 
[15:44] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: do you know of any?
[15:44] <yaili> UndiFineD: thanks :)
[15:44] <erkan^> Over two days come guidedog-school and guide dog on visit by me
[15:44] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: it can probably be done with compiz filters
[15:47] <hajour> sorry for having so much remarks on the site yaili 
[15:48] <yaili> hajour: no, I think we should be sorry :) you've been trying to help and providing feedback, we just need to start incorporating that in the processes rather than making it an afterthought
[15:48] <yaili> oh
[15:48] <yaili> sorry for the long line :(
[15:49] <hajour> np my meds starting to work and it is going some easier now
[15:50] <hajour> also typing.its still not very fast because i type whit only 1 finger
[15:50] <UndiFineD> yaili, as I pointed out with the checker, there are many issues with the current css for ubuntu.com
[15:50] <UndiFineD> the html issues are mostly easily resolved
[15:51] <yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that's something we need to do gradually though, as it is tied with the implementation of drupal, and that needs to be updated
[15:52] <yaili> UndiFineD: same for CSS, as you can see it's importing many unnecessary style sheets
[15:53] <yaili> so no online contrast checker that is reliable? that would be extremely helpful…
[15:53] <UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
[15:53] <UndiFineD> that helps me a lot
[15:53] <yaili> UndiFineD: ah of course, thanks :)
[15:53] <UndiFineD> it also checks for contrast a bit
[15:54] <hajour> UndiFineD,  is also busy to make a full accessible website for speechcontrol :)
[15:54] <yaili> :)
[15:56] <yaili> ok, I need to go now, this was great, thank you
[15:56] <hajour> o for i forget Pendulum  i can be less around tomorrow because i need to arrange things like meds passport and passport for to go to uds in may
[15:57] <yaili> I'll be on the channel anyway
[15:57] <UndiFineD> yaili, feel free to drop back in any time
[15:57] <hajour> i hope i have helped
[15:57] <yaili> UndiFineD: sure
[15:57] <yaili> hajour: immensely, thanks
[15:57] <charlie-tca> yaili: thanks for giving us the opportunity to discuss this with you
[15:57] <hajour> ok nice .was a lisstle felling like only complaining :)
[15:57] <hajour> little i mean
[15:58] <hajour> bah i not must try to type faster
[15:58] <yaili> hajour: no worries :)
[15:58] <yaili> charlie-tca: thanks!
[15:58] <charlie-tca> I agree, hajour 
[15:58] <Pendulum> yaili: thank you so much for coming!
[15:58] <charlie-tca> It is very difficult to discuss such things without feeling like I am complaining more than helping.
[15:58] <yaili> Pendulum: thank you :D
[15:59] <hajour> thank you for listen yaili 
[15:59] <yaili> charlie-tca: well, on my side, I feel like we could do a lot more, baby steps :)
[15:59] <yaili> you'll have to bear with us
[15:59] <charlie-tca> We will try to be patient
[16:00] <hajour> btw yaili  if the accessibility is better i am able to get ubuntu to be used by primary schools 18 from it in netherland
[16:00] <hajour> for to start
[16:00] <charlie-tca> I think it is a lot to throw at you, and yet, we sometimes feel like things are crawling too slow.
[16:01] <yaili> charlie-tca: so do we, there's things we can definitely do more easily than others
[16:02] <yaili> well, I'm off for today, have great day, and thanks
[16:02] <hajour> because i am also busy to get schools go use ubuntu/edubuntu 
[16:03] <hajour> ok have a nice day by yaili 
[16:18] <hajour> erkan^,  you allready had get a answer on your question from which software to use for speaking training ?
[16:18] <erkan^> fyes
[16:18] <erkan^> *yes
[16:19] <erkan^> sorry
[16:19] <erkan^> no, hajour
[16:19] <hajour> sorry for the delay in answering erkan^  but needed to concentrate wile my meds not where working almost
[16:20] <erkan^> i don't care, i have seen that you had busy with another cliënt speak (-:
[16:20] <charlie-tca> erkan^: the guide-dog is great news for you
[16:20] <hajour> ok just wanted to let you now the reason erkan^  :)
[16:21] <erkan^> yes, that is quick. i thought that next years , charlie-tca (-:
[16:21] <hajour> yes very good that you get a guide dog erkan^ 
[16:21] <erkan^> I will wait normal 2 years , but i take a guide dog after 11 mouths
[16:21] <charlie-tca> Wonderful! 
[16:22] <hajour> what can the guide dog do for you out side the walking part
[16:22] <hajour> erkan^, ^
[16:22] <charlie-tca> Sometimes things do work out for us.
[16:22] <erkan^> commando
[16:22] <hajour> by example ?
[16:23] <erkan^> yes, but i have problem speak --> commando )-: i take a logopedie. but i want on computer too for speaking traing
[16:23] <erkan^> over, vooraan, links, rechts, rechtsom, ook naam noemen, enzovoort
[16:23] <erkan^> zoek paal 
[16:23] <hajour> UndiFineD,  says congrats erkan^ 
[16:23] <erkan^> thank you :)
[16:24] <erkan^> but first see or i and guide dog fit good 
[16:25] <hajour> charlie-tca,  and AlanBell  is there already a speak program what is able for simple commands to speak out ?
[16:25] <hajour> yes i understand erkan^ 
[16:26] <erkan^> (-:
[16:26] <hajour> we still wworking on speechcontrol erkan^ 
[16:27] <erkan^> yes i know
[16:27] <hajour> when you will need it erkan^ ?
[16:27] <erkan^> but i want simple speaking, without difficult words 
[16:27] <erkan^> no idea, next week i have an appointment with a logopedie
[16:28] <hajour> yes i have ask for that above erkan^  :)
[16:29] <erkan^> above?
[16:29] <hajour> just stay logged in erkan^  they read back later
[16:30] <hajour> eerder in chat / hier boven = above erkan^ 
[16:30] <erkan^> ja
[16:31] <erkan^> hajour: I'm going to eat soon afterwards I go to visit. I'm at about 9 hours back, okay?
[16:32] <charlie-tca> hajour: I don't know the applications that well.
[16:32] <hajour> ok erkan^  then i am also around again.i need to go to cook so
[16:33] <AlanBell> yaili: thanks very much (sorry, got called away for a bit at the end)
[16:33] <erkan^> ok (-:
[16:34] <yaili> AlanBell: no worrries
[16:35] <hajour> and ok charlie-tca  :)
[16:35] <erkan^> i go eat now laters
[20:14] <erkan^> I am back (-:
[20:14] <erkan^> oh nee ik ga effe wasmachine aanzetten brb (-:
[20:29] <erkan^> hajour, 
[20:29] <erkan^> ik ben terug
[20:29] <erkan^> (-:
[20:29] <erkan^> en ?
[20:29] <erkan^> oeps sorry for dutch
[20:29] <erkan^> I remember
[20:29] <erkan^> I am back 
[20:29] <erkan^> and ?
[20:29] <erkan^> (-:
[20:31] <hajour> hi erkan^ 
[20:32] <hajour> i do not know what kind of software you need .thats why i had asked it to AlanBell 
[20:33] <hajour> maybe he knows it erkan^ 
[20:33] <hajour> but he is on away
[20:34] <hajour> charlie-tca,  ddo you know who erkan^  can asked it about the software?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> AlanBell knows the software the best
[20:34] <hajour> btw i am very tired and i just was preparing to go to sleep
[20:35] <charlie-tca> Ask him specifically here, he will probably answer before long
[20:35] <hajour> erkan^,  see charlie-tca  answer
[20:35] <hajour> sorry all but i ggo sleeping
[20:35] <hajour> goodnight
[20:36] <erkan^> ok
[20:36] <erkan^> goodnight, hajour 
[20:36] <erkan^> charlie-tca, : http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001
[20:36] <erkan^> 370 euro :/
[20:36] <hajour> goodnight erkan^ :)
[20:37] <AlanBell> then hi all
[20:39] <Pendulum> o/ AlanBell 
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell 
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Is there any software for speech therapy/learning?
[20:40] <AlanBell> what sort of speech therapy?
[20:40] <charlie-tca> learning how to speak
[20:41] <AlanBell> for children? or for fixing a speech impediment?
[20:41] <charlie-tca> Teaching a spoken language
[20:41] <charlie-tca> erkan^: ^ ^
[20:42] <erkan^> yes
[20:42] <charlie-tca> what are you trying to do? learn spoken words?
[20:42] <AlanBell> teaching an adult a foreign language?
[20:43] <charlie-tca> I think he has to learn a few spoken commands for a guide dog
[20:43] <erkan^> AlanBell: Over two days come a guide dog visit by me. I want learn that I can speak words as left, right, go, stop, etc. i have a software on computer need, than can computer control or i speak good. i am deaf too. i have a speech teacher too, but i want a software on pc.
[20:43] <erkan^> yes charlie-tca 
[20:44] <AlanBell> ok, so you can see, but are deaf?
[20:44] <charlie-tca> and needs to learn simple word speech
[20:44] <erkan^> i can littel see
[20:44] <erkan^> but on computer i have not problem
[20:44] <erkan^> yes i am deaf AlanBell 
[20:45] <erkan^>  have you expierence with deaf people, AlanBell ? :S
[20:46] <AlanBell> some people use Audacity for some speech therapy work, mainly copying others and dealing with stutters and stammers and timing issues
[20:47] <AlanBell> I used to work with a deaf person and one of my friends has deaf parents
[20:47] <erkan^> ok
[20:47] <AlanBell> and when I set up astoryforbedtime.com there was quite a bit of interest from the deaf community which surprised me
[20:48] <AlanBell> but deaf parents really liked the idea of their kids listening to a mixture of voices of hearing people
[20:48] <AlanBell> because speech development for CODAs is often a bit disrupted even if the children have no hearing issues
[20:49] <erkan^> i know CODA
[20:50] <AlanBell> Child Of Deaf Adult for those not familiar with the abbreviation
[20:50] <erkan^> i ask you
[20:50] <erkan^> can deaf people learn speak for a software on computer, AlanBell ?
[20:51] <AlanBell> really not sure
[20:51] <erkan^> easy speak example "left" "right" etc..
[20:52] <erkan^> ow ok
[20:52] <maco> i suspect youd need something that tells you how to position your lips and tongue and which ways to move them
[20:53] <maco> (i find that useful when im learning another language and can't figure out how to make my mouth form the sounds necessary for the language)
[20:54] <erkan^> when I speak, my voice probably deaf language :-S
[20:56] <JanC> speech command software can work with whatever sound you make, as long as you have a different sound for every command
[20:58] <JanC> but learning to say things correctly is also useful when you are around other people of course  ;)
[20:58] <AlanBell> I would expect a dog would be able to reprogram itself too :)
[21:00] <erkan^> JanC, ik wil een eenvoudige woorden kunnen oefenen zoals links, rechts, vooraan, stop enzovoort zonder zin uitspreken, want de zin is erg ingewikkeld voor me. )-: 
[21:04] <JanC> I guess you can see if you say it more or less right by comparing the sine waves (e.g. in Audacity, like AlanBell said) of a recording of yourself and a correctly pronounced version
[21:04] <AlanBell> nah, that won't work
[21:05] <AlanBell> you would be able to visually see volume and timing, tone is more detailed than you can do in your head
[21:06] <JanC> hm, maybe after applying some "effect" on the data?
[21:08] <AlanBell> well if you did a fast fourier transform you would be able to see the component sine waves (roughly speaking) but it isn't really going to help you learn to copy or say a particular waveform
[21:12] <AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Analyze_Menu
[21:14] <AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Track_Drop-Down_Menu
[21:14] <AlanBell> all interesting stuff that I am sure a therapist could use, but I don't think it is stuff that you can use to self-teach easily
[21:17] <JanC> well, he's not going to self-teach I think, but wants to use it in between or after sessions with his speech therapist?
[21:18] <JanC> I remember the audio lab at the college where I worked for some time had expensive Windows software  :-(
[21:19] <JanC> and of course it was written for Win 9x   :P
[21:22] <erkan^> I go sleep now
[21:22] <erkan^> i am tired