[00:13] <meganerd> That does not sound like a whole lot of fun
[02:42] <ScottL> holstein, i wouldn't worry about testing images tonight...it appears more is broken currently and it's not coming up yet
[02:43] <ScottL> TheMuso, as far as you know do we actually need hal in the seeds for anything?  if not, i'll put it on my list to update for ocelot (if it doesn't yet get removed...again)
[02:43] <TheMuso> ScottL: No we don't need it, but something still may depend on it.
[02:45] <ScottL> TheMuso, should it be in the seeds then, or should it be a hard dependency (the use of "hard" is my term for having something in the control file)
[02:45] <TheMuso> ScottL: Really packages that need it should depend on it, but please read Colin's explanation in the bzr log.
[02:45] <ScottL> TheMuso, will do, thanks
[03:39] <ScottL> ailo_, you reminded me of something i wanted to mention
[03:40] <ailo_> Yeah?
[03:40] <ScottL> you made a comment about no one having a definitive reason to choose xfce over others
[03:40] <ScottL> xfce provides a similar environment compared to what uses are used to with gnome-panels
[03:40] <ScottL> neither gnome3 nor unity would do that directly
[03:40] <ScottL> not saying this is a goal or requirement, but it is something to consider
[03:42] <ailo_> I think my comment was more about that Gnome3 and Unity have most of what Gnome2 has. XFCE is more traditional, yes. One will not need to learn anything new to use it.
[03:43] <ailo_> XFCE reminds me more of Gnome2 then anything else as well. The panels aren't exactly the same, but more alike than for instance KDE
[03:47] <ailo_> ScottL, If it was the mail list you meant. On this channel I said, that I would like for people to give valid arguments to why we should choose one over the other
[03:47] <ailo_> Not just say, I like this, so +1
[03:48] <ailo_> I'm still not against XFCE. I still think it might be the smartest way to go.
[03:48] <ailo_> Just want to explore through testing alternatives and discussing the alternatives
[03:49] <ailo_> And as for the arguments: RAM usage, in my opinion is not a valid argument
[03:50] <ailo_> Having a stable system is my strongest argument against Gnome3
[03:51] <ailo_> I mean, Gnome3 may present us with problems. But, that's not certain either
[03:52] <ailo_> I heard there was some tweaking possible with Gnome3 as well. I heard about a dock
[03:53] <ailo_> Gnome3, with a tweakable dock, and being stable, and supporting anything Gnome2. That could be a valid alternative
[03:53] <ailo_> At least, I would like to find out
[03:55] <ailo_> ScottL, Anyway, that's pretty much all I have to say about that. I don't have a definitive opinion yet, because I haven't explored the alternatives fully yet.
[03:57] <ScottL> ailo_, i'm really hoping that whatever we choose can also support a live dvd without much work from us :)
[03:59] <ailo_> ScottL, That is one area I am sure anyone could learn how to do, but it takes time. There are of course people with those skills already, but to do that with Gnome3, it would need to be someone who is open to the idea. I'm not sure, with everything I am committing to for the next release, that I will have time to explore that.
[04:03] <TheMuso> A live DVD will require much more disk space and CPU time, something that I am not sure Canonical will be willing to give.
[04:03] <TheMuso> And more work.
[04:14] <ailo_> ScottL, With so many people voting for XFCE and clearly that is inspiring people, plus all the other benefits with the live CD, I guess it would be crazy not to go with XFCE.
[04:14] <ailo_> Well, badly explained, but I think you get what i mean :P
[04:15] <ScottL> TheMuso, more work for us, canonical, or both?  who should we talk to within Canonical to explore if it is acceptable?
[04:16] <ScottL> TheMuso, i would really like to transition to a live dvd
[04:16] <ScottL> TheMuso, i know that arguments about possible bad performance of a live medium
[04:17] <ScottL> but i think we are losing potential members because they can't showcase and give away live dvds or usb
[04:17] <ScottL> versus any we might loose because they might suffer bad performance
[04:20] <ailo_> ScottL, I just don't get the idea that there would be bad performance
[04:21] <ailo_> ScottL, Apps will load slower, if the live medium is slow. 
[04:22] <ScottL> one of the strongest (or at least most pervasive) arguments against a live dvd was that it would result in turning people off because of bad performance
[04:22] <ailo_> At least, that is what I have gathered, that actual audio performance will not change at all (as long as there is realtime privilege)
[04:23] <ailo_> Because the apps live in RAM, not on the medium. They are just loaded from the medium
[04:23] <ailo_> So, when running a process, it should be pretty much the same deal
[04:25] <ailo_> KXStudio seemed to use Desktop FX on the Live medium. I should try again, but that didn't seem ideal. Puredyne, however is XFCE, and live. We could all try that out and see for ourselves
[04:26] <ailo_> Puredyne might be the best example for us, performance-wise
[04:33] <ScottL> sorry, wife got home and we talked a bit
[04:34] <ScottL> ailo_,  my point is that even allowing that performance might be bad i think the numbers of users we would lose from that
[04:35] <ScottL> ailo_, is less than the number of users we are not reaching due to not having a live dvd
[04:35] <ScottL> the libre graphics people are an example of the later, these lost opportunities
[04:36] <ScottL> ginger said that she goes out a lot and likes to give away live medium and would like to with ubuntu studio but can't :(
[04:36] <ScottL> she has been giving out fedore design suite lately
[04:39] <ScottL> but i concede that it may be time or permission prohibitive for us, either in the short term or even at all to have a live dvd :(
[04:40] <ScottL> but this, along with better jack-pulse integration, is still one of the most common user concerns/complaints/desires i believe
[04:43] <ailo_> ScottL, Yes. I agree, fully. And, I don't understand what the point is about Live medium giving worse performance. 
[04:51] <TheMuso> ScottL: You want to talk to Canonical. Its not that much more work if any at all, but it requires more CPU time on the servers.
[04:51] <TheMuso> ScottL: If you only go down the live root, things shouldn't be too bad disk space wise.
[04:53] <ScottL> ailo_, i don't give credence to whether it does or doesn't.  i have no experience with studio performance on a live medium.  i'm just saying that even allowing this it were true i believe there are good reasons to still pursue it
[04:53] <ScottL> sigh
[04:54] <ScottL> i'm just saying that even allowing this were true, i believe there are good reasons to still pursue it
[04:54] <TheMuso> Well now that we can use USB sticks, performance should be acceptable from a USB stick.
[04:55] <ScottL> i'm avoiding the mostly subjective (at this point because no one can test what we don't have) argument of performance
[04:55] <ScottL> TheMuso, that is a very good point (or counterargument to some)
[04:55] <ailo_> ScottL, We can test Puredyne.
[04:55] <ScottL> ailo_, right, but that's not ubuntu studio :P
[04:56] <TheMuso> ScottL: The only questino in my mind, is just how many fo the packages do you put in the live image? i.e do you put the desktop and maybe audio in the live session, and put the rest on the DVD as extra installs?
[04:56] <ScottL> ailo_, but i allow that i would expect the performance to be fairly comparable, unless they have a horribly out of date kernel
[04:56] <ailo_> ScottL, It's based on Ubuntu Karmic, and uses the -rt kernel that Ubuntu Studio used. It's practically the same thing, though older
[04:56] <TheMuso> gah typing
[04:56] <Kokito> hello folks
[04:56] <ScottL> ailo_, ah, i didn't know that
[04:57] <ScottL> hi Kokito 
[04:57] <TheMuso> You will also have to write a ubiquity plugin to give users a choice which tasks to install at install time.
[04:57] <ScottL> ailo_, i guess that does make it a closer comparison than i had expected
[04:57] <holstein> ScottL: cool, i'll wait on the testing
[04:58] <ScottL> TheMuso, i hadn't thought any further than trying to build consensus on building a live dvd ;)
[04:58] <TheMuso> Right, but its something that needs to be considered.
[04:58] <ScottL> holstein, apparently launchpad's network was having some difficulty which was causing broken images (i think)
[04:59] <ScottL> TheMuso, absolutely, i agree
[04:59] <ailo_> We could also ask if puredyne people would like to assist us
[04:59] <holstein> ScottL: hey, that sounds like a fixable problem then
[04:59] <holstein> more easily fixable
[04:59] <ScottL> ailo_, aye, i suppose you are right :)
[04:59] <holstein> ailo_: i was just reading your email, and thinking the same
[05:01] <ScottL> TheMuso, cory was considering talking to edubuntu people about their installer (re: ubiquity plugin)
[05:01] <ScottL> at least i presume it is a ubiquity plugin
[05:03] <ScottL> TheMuso, does vanilla ubuntu have particular packages on the live image and the rest to be installed?  i don't know if you can answer that
[05:03] <ScottL> Kokito, i like the stuff you are doing with the website
[05:04] <ScottL> Kokito, i certainly seems to stand heads and shoulders above
[05:05] <Kokito> ScottL: thanks!
[05:05] <Kokito> I am about to send out another email with links to a few more screenshots
[05:08] <Kokito> here they are...
[05:08] <Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595278554459506242
[05:08] <TheMuso> ScottL: No, vanilla Ubuntu has everything on the live image. The only packages outside of that are for hardware support.
[05:08] <Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595278554875022562
[05:08] <Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595284881897234786
[05:08]  * TheMuso goes digging for the edubuntu plugins.
[05:13] <ailo_> ScottL, holstein, Just to repeat myself a little. I think I'm done considering UI's. Since practically everyone's for XFCE and there's a momentum for it, I'm all for XFCE. Were you at all considering other options ScottL?
[05:14] <holstein> ailo_: cool
[05:14] <ailo_> I mean, are you still, seriously..
[05:14] <holstein> i wanted you to be behind it
[05:15] <holstein> you had very valid reason to *not* use it
[05:15] <holstein> reasons*
[05:16] <ScottL> ailo_, i'm not sure really, i suppose not, my brief experience with gnome3 and unity didn't really inspire me
[05:16] <ScottL> ailo_, while xfce seems a closer transition, less of a shock
[05:17] <ailo_> I'm sure it will be a fine system.
[05:17] <ScottL> Kokito, i like the new screenshots...particularly the improved banner at the top
[05:18] <ScottL> ailo_, but to be honest, i was truly depending on your opinion after your testing :P
[05:19] <ailo_> ScottL, Thanks. I guess I'm just a little hyped about Gnome3, or something
[05:19] <ScottL> if you had put forth emphatic defense of one or the other (balanced with good reason) i would have considered one of the others more
[05:19] <ScottL> enough for tonight, i'm going to bed
[05:20] <ailo_> I'm really supposed to be coding puredata patches this month. We're planning some gigs in early summer, and I need to finish some stuff. I believe I will have most time to put in on documentation and such May / June.
[05:21] <ailo_> Anyway, I'm on here all the time
[05:21] <ailo_> Think I'm going to be a little more laid back for a while, though
[05:21] <ailo_> GN ScottL 
[05:24] <Kokito> good night ScottL 
[05:25]  * Kokito better get some dinner
[05:25] <Kokito> bbl
[05:25] <TheMuso> I'm somewhat off PD, at least till it better supports multiple CPUs/cores.
[05:26] <ailo_> TheMuso, [pd~] doesn't do it for you?
[05:26] <TheMuso> ailo_: Haven't 1) heard of it, and 2) tried it.
[05:26] <ailo_> I haven't pushed it that far yet. I was using a Pentium 3 not long ago.
[05:27] <TheMuso> right. So what is pd~, better yet, got a link?
[05:27] <ailo_> [pd~] creates a new instance of pd, but I haven't used it much.
[05:28] <ailo_> It's included with the vanilla puredata
[05:29] <TheMuso> oh bah thats less than satisfactory IMO.
[05:29] <ailo_> It's supposed to use the next core
[05:30] <TheMuso> On one hand, I can uderstand the POV, the user has to make their patches multi-core aware.
[05:30] <TheMuso> understand
[05:30] <TheMuso> But on the other, users just want to get on with building patches.
[05:31] <ailo_> I guess there aren't many devs in those areas. There's some problems with the gui too, I think
[05:32] <ailo_> But, it works for me
[05:32] <TheMuso> Fair enough.
[05:35] <TheMuso> I haven't used PD for ages, but I was talking to a colleague who told me about hish issues with pd, and it not being multi-threaded/core aware etc.
[13:01] <ScottL> new image for ubuntu studio was built last night...anyone who can test it would be appreciated
[13:02] <ScottL> as you were, all test are already complete...i'm guessing by jibel
[13:02] <ScottL> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
[13:11] <ScottL> good morning, abogani, i would like to take over maintenance of the -lowlatency kernel
[13:11] <ScottL> abogani, i'm afraid that someone else,however, will need to commit to the -rt kernel
[13:12] <ScottL> lots of relatively "new" people....hi, Daviey , meganerd , phed__ T0rCh_raony TheBeedle  :)
[13:15] <abogani> ScottL: Yeah. Definitely a good news! 
[13:16] <abogani> New people I meant.
[13:16] <abogani> ScottL: You'll have a lof of fun with -lowlatency! It is very easy to maintains.
[13:17] <ScottL> good!  because i have limited time for it ;)
[13:18] <abogani> ScottL: You won't have to patch video close drivers, fight with packaging, test it and so on as like as you take over the -realtime.
[13:20] <abogani> ScottL: In any case ailo wasn't able to obtain good results with -lowlatency (or better of the -generic at least). So I really don't know if it is worth.
[13:23] <ScottL> that is a very good point to explore
[13:23] <ScottL> i hope next week i can devote a contiguous chunk of time to test as well, alessio
[13:27] <ScottL> TheMuso, given the amount (and substance) of change we currently have planned for 11.10, i do not think exploring a live dvd is appropriate yet, perhaps for 12.04 as holstein prognosticated :P
[14:11] <TheMuso> ScottL: ok
[14:15] <marcelC> hello
[14:15] <marcelC> why ubuntu studio use a real time kernel (patch)
[14:25] <abogani> marcelC: The goal is to let our users record their music without glitches.
[14:32] <marcelC> dose this affect's photo work as well?
[14:33] <marcelC> the emulated photoshop with wine will work faster with the real time kenrel?
[14:33] <marcelC> or just sound & video?
[14:37] <abogani> marcelC: just sound.
[14:39] <abogani> marcelC: Real time kernel is slower than the -generic one for that type of applications!
[14:39] <marcelC> uhm, okay
[14:39] <marcelC> 10q/thx
[15:10] <holstein> scott-work: if you get a minute
[15:10] <holstein> let me know what you did to prepare for maintaining the -lowlatency kernel
[15:10] <holstein> im pretty sure -rt maintaining is over my head still
[15:11] <holstein> but id like to give it a look
[15:11] <holstein> and see if its something i could prepare for
[15:13] <holstein> wow
[15:13] <holstein> so we are all tested then right?
[15:13] <holstein> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
[15:14] <holstein> jibel?
[15:14] <holstein> who is that?
[15:14] <holstein> thats awesome :)
[15:41] <scott-work> holstein: i only know jibel from #ubuntu-release
[15:41] <scott-work> i'm not sure exactly who he is or what is responibilities are
[15:41] <scott-work> holstein: and we should still probably check the images anyways just to make sure because i believe jibel is using an automated system to check these
[15:42] <scott-work> which may not be a real install or might miss something...don't really know though
[15:42] <scott-work> but considering that we had significant problems on these images and this is the last testing before releasing it would be good to test them
[15:42] <scott-work> perhpas not immediate as in RIGHT NOW, but hopefully in the next few days
[15:43] <scott-work> maybe we could get ricardo to test an amd64 image as well
[15:43] <scott-work> i'll take the i386 ones
[15:43] <scott-work> holstein: oh, this is what i did for the -lowlatency kernel:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
[15:44] <scott-work> i think abogani did all the hard work, mine part in it was menial
[16:24] <ailo_> scott-work, Just to clarify on results. I believe -lowlatency does outperform -generic. On my other system the difference was big.
[16:25] <ailo_> I don't trust -generic, and would need to see more results from other computers
[16:25] <ailo_> Also, I believe holstein gets a big difference between the two
[16:26] <ailo_> So, again, I would not hesitate on -lowlatency, if not for any other reason than that it is at least so far, the most reliable
[16:27] <ailo_> But, also, because tests so far seem to indicate that -lowlatency is better.
[16:33] <scott-work> ailo_: i'm not hesitating to test :)
[16:33] <scott-work> i'm really hoping that between you, i, holsten, and perhaps ricardo (maybe even ralf) we can cover some good ground
[16:33] <scott-work> compare our results and hopefully derive a confident answer
[16:34] <scott-work> whichever way the answer is :)
[16:34] <scott-work> which may not be that -lowlatency is needed, but then again, it might be
[16:34] <scott-work> but what i don't want is to not be able to definitively defend -lowlatency's position in the repository if asked
[16:36] <ailo_> scott-work, More testing would indeed be good. However, already I do believe -lowlatency fills a function. It is better and more reliable. On my amd64 box, -generic is not usable for me, while -lowlatency is even better than on my intel 32 bit. And holstein had a difference too.
[16:36] <ailo_> scott-work, Yes, more testing would be good
[16:37] <scott-work> ailo_: i realize you have already tested quite a bit, but can you commit to helping with a comparative testing suite next week
[16:37] <scott-work> ailo_: where multiple people can try to run the same* test and compare results?
[16:38] <scott-work> * i realize they cannot be explicitly the same, but as close as we can to hopefully derive an conclusion
[16:38] <ailo_> scott-work, Sure. And, we could ask people on irc to help us. I see holstein has showed interest in mantaining the kernel. This I could do also.
[16:50] <scott-work> ailo_: maintaining a kernel in ubuntu would be a long term committment, are you up for that?
[16:51] <scott-work> ailo_: i got the impression six months ago or so you might be transitioning at some point to another distro
[16:57] <scott-work> but please don't think i'm trying to discourage you :)
[16:57] <ailo_> scott-work, I commit for one release at the time, but I would not quit maintaining the kernel even if I would stop contributing actively to Ubuntu Studio. At least not until someone else would take it over.
[16:58] <scott-work> ailo_: that's cool :)
[16:59] <ailo_> scott-work, I'm about to learn packaging, and the kernel bit will need some more knowledge if that is to be viable, but I think I'm up for it
[17:00] <ailo_> I will be packaging -controls either way
[17:00] <ailo_> In my repo
[17:44] <Kokito> good morning folks
[17:44] <meganerd> good morning
[17:44] <meganerd> also Hi back at ScottL
[17:45] <scott-work> hi Kokito :)
[17:45] <scott-work> meganerd:  :)
[17:45] <scott-work> oh Kokito i will see about getting you some screenshots
[17:46] <scott-work> in fact i will email you one now
[17:46] <Kokito> that would be great scott-work :)
[17:47] <scott-work> Kokito: i'll work on others tonight
[17:47] <scott-work> and see if can build some momentum on the mailing list
[17:49] <Kokito> sounds good Scott
[17:58] <meganerd> it looks like you guys are testing the -generic vs -rt kernels, how are you testing and do you need help?
[18:00] <meganerd> or rather -lowlatency
[18:01] <ailo_> meganerd, Do you have Natty installed?
[18:02] <ailo_> meganerd, It would be great to get some help with the testing.
[18:03] <ailo_> meganerd, What you need basically is Ubuntu Natty, the -lowlatency from abogani's PPA, jackd + a program you like, and of course: realtime privilege
[18:08] <meganerd> My DAW is currently 10.10, but I have an abundance of hard drives at the moment.  Also my DAW is one of three computers so I am not terribly worried about downtime
[18:08] <meganerd> Currently it is a Sandy Bridge with a custom kernel.
[18:09] <meganerd> how are you testing the kernel?  How do you measuring the difference between the two kernels?
[18:15] <ailo_> meganerd, We don't have any good tests, but just by doing something simple is enough because we only want to know what difference there is between -generic and -lowlatency
[18:16] <ailo_> meganerd, Whatever you choose to do, do the same on both. For instance, jackd + ardour. 
[18:17] <ailo_> Just by starting jackd we get some info on the difference between the two
[18:17] <ailo_> meganerd, But, the lowest latencies are usually not usable with programs.
[18:18] <ailo_> meganerd, I was able to start jackd with the lowest possible latency setting there is using -lowlatency and only getting a couple of xruns
[18:18] <ailo_> meganerd, But, I wouldn't be able to run programs
[18:18] <ailo_> meganerd, So, the goal is to get the lowest latency that doesn't give xruns. Also, you need to run the test for a while
[18:18] <ailo_> meganerd, At least for 10-15 minutes would be nice
[18:21] <scott-work> quick logo i knocked up during lunch:  http://imagebin.org/148208
[18:23] <ailo_> scott-work, A little yin and yang. Looks nice
[18:24] <ailo_> scott-work, meganerd holstein: I started a new page where we could assemble testing results between the kernels as well as give instructions on how to test them
[18:24] <ailo_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
[18:24] <ailo_> I'll be updating it today
[18:25] <scott-work> ailo_: eh, i'm stupidly not good with graphic design, i just ideas every now and then and hope that someone with better skills and talent can do something with it
[18:29] <scott-work> ailo_: another one i was "playing" with:  http://imagebin.org/148211
[18:29] <scott-work> the "play" on words should be obvious
[18:30] <scott-work> some of the parts have moved though and it's just a working mock-up i did quickly
[18:30] <scott-work> "some of the parts have moved" means that is why it probably looks warped or untrue
[18:32] <ailo_> I guess it might be a good idea to have a ardour project that everyone uses, though I don't think it matters for the tests.
[18:32] <ailo_> I can't see any difference at all relating to different usage of the same program
[18:37] <holstein> ailo_: hey, if you would do some hand-holding
[18:38] <holstein> and help me get started
[18:38] <holstein> probably more than started
[18:38] <holstein> i would be interested in looking at maintaining that kernel
[18:39] <scott-work> ailo_: do you think over the next couple of days you can help me test the i386 ISO images?
[18:39] <scott-work> holstein: doh, i didn't know you were around, just sent an email to you
[18:40] <holstein> scott-work: i just got here
[18:41] <holstein> scott-work: i should be able to get through some today and tomorrow
[18:41] <holstein> im off tomorrow mostly
[18:42] <rlameiro> scott-work, i jus answered to your mail, i am not at home. at the moment I am in lisbon and only go home in sunday
[18:42] <rlameiro> i just have this little netbook, so testing isos isnt as good
[18:45] <ailo_> scott-work, I can help with the testing. We start now?
[18:45] <ailo_> Ah, damn. i386. But, I guess it doesn't matter if I install them on amd64 system
[18:46] <ailo_> holstein, I could help you with that absolutely
[18:46] <holstein> ailo_: cool
[18:46] <holstein> let me look at scott-work 's link
[18:47] <holstein> and i'll ping you when i have time to work on it
[18:47] <ailo_> holstein, I could upload on my own PPA and you on yours. This way we can trade some info
[18:47] <holstein> ailo_: great idea
[18:47] <holstein> i'll look into setting up a PPA
[18:47] <ailo_> holstein, Sure. I'm preparing to upload myself now, and have done so already once, but it failed building
[18:47] <ailo_> holstein, But, it was another kernel
[18:48] <ailo_> holstein, So, I can help you so far at least
[18:48] <ailo_> holstein, The problems are more on understanding everything
[18:48] <ailo_> holstein, But, with time, I'm sure the both of us can do that
[18:48] <ailo_> holstein, I will be doing that, either way
[18:49] <ailo_> I mean, learning how to do it
[18:50] <scott-work> thanks holstein and ailo_  :)
[18:50] <scott-work> heh, and ricardo already left 
[18:58] <ailo_> Trying to open qjackctl, to look at what the settings are called and it keeps crashing. :(
[19:32] <ailo_> meganerd, I'm putting together some instructions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
[19:32] <ailo_> scott-work, holstein, and anyone interested. You have a look too, and give comments please https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
[19:54] <scott-work> ailo_: i will look at that later tonight
[20:03] <ailo_> scott-work, I practically redid what we started on testing before, but also added some instructions for it.
[20:45] <scott-work> very loose plan for what we have discussed for 11.10:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Oneiric%20Ocelot%20%2811.10%29
[20:46] <holstein> ailo_: yeah?
[20:46] <holstein> we dont get -lowlatency in the repos?
[20:46] <holstein> that sux
[20:46] <scott-work> holstein: why would you say that?
[20:46] <scott-work> re: not getting it into the repos
[20:46] <holstein> more of a question really
[20:47] <holstein> we dont get it for 11.04?
[20:47] <ailo_> holstein, Nope. And I think the main reason for that is that to few were helping out with testing and verifying if it really was needed
[20:48] <ailo_> So, let's try to straighten that out for the next release
[20:48] <holstein> well, i want to raise a little hell for a bit though
[20:48] <holstein> if that is the case
[20:48] <holstein> and see if we cant get it pushed now
[20:48] <holstein> i mean, we wont need it for lond
[20:48] <holstein> long*
[20:48] <ailo_> holstein, I am of the opinion that -generic does not cut it. But, we need more machines and more results to clear that up
[20:49] <holstein> probably just the next 2 releases
[20:49] <holstein> we are seriously handicapped without it
[20:49] <ailo_> holstein, It's hard to say. Of course, machines get faster, and already that makes things easier
[20:49] <ailo_> holstein, So, -generic will work in the future, no doubt
[20:50] <ailo_> holstein, I agree. We need it now
[20:50] <ailo_> the -lowlatency
[20:50] <holstein> why would anyone use ubuntutstudio?
[20:50] <holstein> when we cant provide a decent user experience out of the box
[20:50] <holstein> we are litereally the only one that cant
[20:50] <holstein> KX can, AVlinux
[20:50] <holstein> dont get me started on 64studio
[20:50] <holstein> but it does too
[20:51] <holstein> puredyne, musix
[20:51] <ailo_> It's getting to be a little frustrating,
[20:51] <holstein> we need that kernel
[20:51] <ailo_> And having it in the main repo would mean all Ubuntu derivatives can use it, including KXStudio, Puredyne etc
[20:51] <ailo_> Which they absolutely would, if it was in there
[20:53] <ailo_> holstein, How many computers can you test with Natty? Which archs are those?
[20:54] <holstein> ailo_: i have a laptop
[20:54] <holstein> single-core 64bit chip
[20:54] <holstein> ive been meaning to blow it out
[20:55] <holstein> so, i think i'll just do the tests on it
[20:55] <holstein> ailo_: what about you?
[20:55] <holstein> you want to devide and conquer?
[20:56] <ailo_> holstein, I have already done a lot of testing on my inte 32 bit. I recently tested on amd64. I will be adding the results for both of those later
[20:56] <holstein> cool
[20:56] <holstein> ill ping you then later
[20:56] <holstein> i can get to whatever you dont
[20:56] <holstein> later tonite
[20:56] <holstein> or tomorrow
[20:56] <scott-work> i do have a 64 bit machine and a 32 bit machine i can pull out to test
[20:56] <scott-work> both with on board audio though
[20:57] <holstein> scott-work: you know about the kernel?
[20:57] <ailo_> scott-work, That would be awesome. onboard is not optimal, but should do for the sake of comparison
[20:57] <holstein> i thought we had a hail-mary kinda thing going on
[20:57] <holstein> for the -lowlatency
[20:58] <ailo_> holstein, Here are some results from earlier this year. As you can see, -generic was no good a lot of times. Strangely, it is better now, but only on my 32 bit machine
[20:58] <ailo_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
[20:58] <holstein> interesting
[20:58] <ailo_> But, I didn't include latest results yet
[20:59] <ailo_> holstein, Tests done 2011-02-30 -31 show you that -generic is performing as well. Later it didn't
[20:59] <scott-work> holstein: i think one thing that held us back was that persia seemed to disappear
[20:59] <ailo_> The same kernel, even..?!!
[21:00] <holstein> i think by 12.04 or so
[21:00] <holstein> -generic will be fine
[21:00] <holstein> and thats awesome
[21:00] <holstein> but for now
[21:00] <holstein> we *need* -lowlatency
[21:00] <scott-work> ailo_: i like what you started for testing, the better we can codify what we did to test the more likely others will help
[21:00] <scott-work> plus it helps make sure the tests are all comparable
[21:01] <holstein> what about JFo ?
[21:01]  * JFo perks up
[21:01] <holstein> persia was just going to put it in right?
[21:01] <holstein> can you do that JFo ?
[21:01] <scott-work> holstein: even if we go tthe kernel into the repo it wouldn't be good for us at this point
[21:01] <holstein> or get me in touch with someone who can?
[21:01] <scott-work> holstein: our last test image has already been made for this cycle
[21:01]  * JFo is oblivious to the convo
[21:01]  * JFo reads back
[21:01] <holstein> scott-work: OH
[21:01] <holstein> so its over then
[21:02] <holstein> I C
[21:02] <scott-work> holstein: it would be really bad form to switch kernels at this point :(
[21:02] <holstein> that sux
[21:02] <holstein> i mean, at least folks are used to it
[21:02] <holstein> since 10.10 is totally inadequate as well
[21:03] <holstein> the guys who really take advantage of the kernel will know how to deal with it
[21:03] <holstein> its the guys that read, and think they need it
[21:03] <holstein> and dont really know how to deal with adding PPA's
[21:03] <holstein> and google AVlinux or whatever
[21:03] <holstein> and just bail
[21:03] <holstein> whatever, i'll get over it here in a bit
[21:04] <holstein> its a drag though
[21:04] <ailo_> To use ubuntu studio for serious audio work: 1. you need to fix realtime privilege yourself, 2. You need to get an external kernel.
[21:04] <holstein> i think i need to re-gear my brain for the future
[21:05] <holstein> and quit worrying about who we are losing
[21:05] <holstein> and think about what we are doing in the future to gain folks
[21:05] <scott-work> ailo_:  #1 is only required if you start with vanilla and "upgrade"
[21:05] <ailo_> scott-work, It is? Not the last time I checked
[21:05] <scott-work> #2 will be taken care of with ocelot and 2.6.39 kernel
[21:06] <ailo_> scott-work, How so? 2.6.39 only adds irq priority, not a faster kernel
[21:06] <scott-work> ailo_: i believe so, i haven't had to add myself to audio group with a full install from dvd that i can remember
[21:06] <ailo_> scott-work, Well, my arguments stand
[21:06] <scott-work> ailo_: sorry, #2 will be taken care of with -lowlatency 2.6.39 kernel
[21:07] <scott-work> which i fully expect to get for ocelot
[21:07] <ailo_> scott-work, Right. And I hope we can be firm about that
[21:07] <holstein> lunch...bb
[21:07] <scott-work> ailo_:  i plan to be unflinchingly firm about it, provided we do our part and the results are favorable :)
[21:07] <scott-work> ailo_: but how so on #1 ("my arguments stand")
[21:07] <ailo_> scott-work, I'm happy to hear that. It really is the most essential component as far as I am concerned
[21:08] <JFo> make sure you guys are in on the kernel version session of UDS. that is, I think where your issues should be brought up.
[21:08] <JFo> as I am not the person who gets to make those decisions, it is the team's effort
[21:10] <scott-work> JFo: i'm not sure how much UKT will be involved in this because it's a "community" maintained kernel which will be in Universe
[21:10] <JFo> true
[21:10] <ailo_> scott-work, I need to reinstall ubuntu studio to find out about audio group and /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf. My installations of the DVD usually fails, why I often try other solutions, like last time with usb stick, which only installed the base system.
[21:10] <scott-work> although we are still waiting for the documentation from the last blueprint ;)
[21:10] <ailo_> scott-work, And the reason for failed installations is usually a bad DVD burn
[21:11] <scott-work> ailo_: i'll double check as well when i install again, tonight or tomorrow
[21:11] <ailo_> scott-work, There's also the matter of adding new users. Those should also be a part of audio group by default
[21:12] <meganerd> ailo_: Thanks for that link.  I will give it a go once I get Natty installed.
[21:12] <ailo_> scott-work, It would be easiest if Ubuntu would do that for us, but I expect they won't accept that
[21:12] <ailo_> meganerd, Great. There will be a few of us, at least 3 others so far to do the tests. The more the better
[21:13] <scott-work> ailo_: i wonder how many ubuntu studio setups have multiple users, it's something i've never really considered before
[21:14] <ailo_> scott-work, It should be the default when adding a new Ubuntu Studio user. I don't know how the installation of Ubuntu Studio does that, but either way, we need it. 
[21:15] <ailo_> scott-work, But, of course, it's not as important for user Nr 2..
[21:16] <scott-work> ailo_: during installation, when creating the first user, it should add the user to the audio group
[21:17] <scott-work> ailo_: but when adding additional users i don't believe this is automatic (adding to audio group)
[21:17] <ailo_> scott-work, Should be just a matter of adding a new type of default groups for users
[21:18] <ailo_> scott-work, I will look into that for next release. Also about the possebility to add the user to audio group if installing stuff from vanilla Ubuntu
[21:20] <ailo_> scott-work, It would make sense if installing jackd did that, but I wouldn't know where to do that. Perhaps it needs to be done from Debian
[21:20] <scott-work> ailo_:  i thought the update -controls would handle the "from vanilla ubuntu" aspect
[21:20] <ailo_> scott-work, It will.
[21:21] <ailo_> scott-work, But, perhaps it shouldn't have to. Anyway, I'm going to make it do that
[21:25] <scott-work> ailo_: having -controls handle stuff is cool, but it would be even nicer if we had a package that you installed to "upgrade"
[21:25] <scott-work> it would install all the current applications and make any systemic changes required
[21:25] <scott-work> after asking, "Are you sure?"
[21:25] <scott-work> :)
[21:26] <scott-work> that would be cool
[21:26] <scott-work> maybe even with some checkboxes asking which aspects to install...i.e. audio, graphic, video packages
[21:26] <ailo_> scott-work, -controls should be a tool to handle system settings, but as las said, giving user realtime prio is a do it once and forget it thing
[21:27] <scott-work> right, which is partly handled by installing jack currently
[21:27] <scott-work> since the user still needs to be in the audio group
[21:27] <ailo_> scott-work, Yes. And if Ubuntu would agree to let all users be members of audio group by default, we don't need to do anything
[21:27] <scott-work> ailo_: eh, as you said, i don't think ubuntu will do that
[21:27] <ailo_> scott-work, If not, we could look into how we can do that
[21:27] <ailo_> From our packages
[21:28] <scott-work> ailo_: but i'm pretty sure this is only a problem if you upgrade from vanilla
[21:29] <scott-work> if we are going to adjust a package to help to add the user to a group, then i say we go all the way and help the user "upgrade"
[21:30] <meganerd> ailo_: I wonder if we could put together a script with common source material to run the same test on several machines?  The idea would be to create an ardour project, or script something to use csound or mocp, that all testers would be running the same test.
[21:31] <scott-work> meganerd: that would be mega-awesome!
[21:31]  * scott-work apologizes but couldn't resist
[21:31] <meganerd> holstein: why is 10.10 totally inadequate?  
[21:31] <ailo_> meganerd, Well, we could. And perhaps the main benefit would be about jack settings. 
[21:31] <meganerd> scott-work: I guess that sounds like I just volunteered, doesn't it :)
[21:32] <ailo_> meganerd, I think a script could work, but I don't think we need it, unless we are planning on something long term and more detailed
[21:33] <holstein> meganerd: same reason
[21:33] <meganerd> ailo_: that is what I was thinking.  Currently I am running 10.10 @ ~5 ms latency with an RME card.  I have not tried to push beyond that.
[21:33] <holstein> the kernel cant support some workflows
[21:33] <holstein> for realtime audio
[21:33] <holstein> *the default out-of-the-box kernel
[21:33] <meganerd> ailo_: I was thinking long term.  Ideally something that we could eventually automate.
[21:34] <meganerd> holstein: your answer does not make sense to me.  Same reason as what?
[21:34] <meganerd> holstein: nm
[21:34] <holstein> same reason as 11.04
[21:34] <holstein> neither one has a kernel for that need
[21:34] <holstein> out of the box
[21:35] <holstein> you can add PPA's
[21:35] <meganerd> holstein: I thought that 11.04 had a better kernel?
[21:35] <holstein> meganerd: the -generic kernel is better
[21:35] <meganerd> holstein: I though I saw some patches get merged upstream?
[21:35] <holstein> and will be perfectly fine very soon
[21:35] <holstein> but for now, not happenin
[21:35] <ailo_> meganerd, It does. But, one reason for the testing would be to find out how good it really is. We won't have a "multimedia" kernel. Only the -generic one.
[21:36] <ailo_> in the 11.04 repo, that is
[21:36] <ailo_> meganerd, The -generic kernel isn't configured with preempt options like -lowlatency. That is the difference
[21:37] <ailo_> meganerd, And, we need to find out how big the difference really is
[21:37] <ailo_> in performance
[21:38] <ailo_> meganerd, So, a script would give us what? An automated way to start programs and check for xruns?. I started working on a script like that before
[21:39] <meganerd> ailo_: I understand.  I built my own kernel for 10.10 (I have a Sandy Bridge that replaced the previous machine that died), the first one I compiled with voluntary (not lowlatency), and it was quite good.  Sub 10 ms.  I have not pushed either very far.  I suspect that there will not be a huge difference, but I guess that is why we need the testing.
[21:40] <ailo_> meganerd, One one of my machines both kernels are as good. One the other, there's a huge difference. With some numbers, maybe we can start to see some patterns
[21:40] <meganerd> ailo_: Basically doing the boring stuff.  Start jack, run some audio, record the results (number of xruns etc).  Stop jack, start over with lower latency.  The kind of thing I could run and walk away from.
[21:41] <ailo_> meganerd, Right. And, we don't need anything more than that basically. We could add cpu load, but from what I've seen that is not a reliable way to do the tests anyway. 
[21:41] <meganerd> ailo_: doing this by hand is not fun.  The easier you make it for less technical people, the more results we can get.  As it is, the best can get is a mild "feel" for which is better.
[21:42] <ailo_> meganerd, I agree. But, there is a chance that less technical people will do something else to throw the test off. However, a script might be better than no script. 
[21:42] <meganerd> ailo_: I am not sure that 3 of us are going to generate enough data to be able to make a meaningful interpretation.   I am all for the testing either way.  The science training is hard to walk away from :)
[21:43] <ailo_> Let's see. Getting xruns would need a command passing error messages, catching whatever message looks like an xrun and react on them
[21:44] <meganerd> ailo_: First things first, I will put Natty back on a drive, I have some projects that I could just load, and see if there is a difference between the two kernels.  From there the rest is basically how much time do I have
[21:44] <ailo_> meganerd, That's what it comes down to. 
[21:45] <meganerd> ailo_: parsing a text file for predictable patterns in an automated fashion... if only we had some tools for that sort of thing :)
[21:46] <ailo_> meganerd, Let's start with just us 4 people testing. The main thing for me is to have some diversity with machines
[21:47] <meganerd> ailo_: anyway, i am happy to help out.  I have written more than a few scripts in my time, so I will consider this part to be my problem.  
[21:51] <holstein> a script like this would be for the alsa driver only you think?
[21:52] <holstein> maybe there could be a firewire one seperate
[21:52] <scott-work> "diversity with machiens" ...and also diversity of audio interfaces as well
[21:52] <scott-work> i think this will play a huge part
[21:53] <holstein> can the script collect info as well?
[21:53] <holstein> like lspci information ?
[21:53] <holstein> and uname?
[21:53] <holstein> free
[21:59] <ailo_> holstein, A script should ask you what devices you are to use. The best would be if it saved a settings file that you can reuse for all the settings
[21:59] <holstein> ailo_: hey
[21:59] <holstein> i like that even better
[21:59] <ailo_> scott-work, Yes. Firewire vs pci and usb would be interesting to see
[22:00] <ailo_> holstein, I'm not going to write one though :)
[22:00] <holstein> this sounds do-able
[22:00] <holstein> but, you would help meganerd with one right?
[22:00] <holstein> i would
[22:00] <holstein> lets think about it, and try and talk in a few days
[22:01] <ailo_> Well, if we are to really push this on to the community, maybe that is exactly what we should do
[22:01] <scott-work> it's a shame that we don't know a grad student looking for a thesis in computer science and audio performance :(
[22:01] <scott-work> ailo_, holstein, meganerd: maybe an email to a few mailing list and ask for ideas, comments
[22:02] <holstein> yeah, that too
[22:02] <holstein> its a lot to take on
[22:02] <holstein> but i really see it as do-able
[22:02] <holstein> after this little brain storming session
[22:02] <ailo_> Really, the script does not need to do much. But, it will take some time to write it
[22:02] <holstein> it would be nice it there were something it could upload to
[22:03] <holstein> in launchpad or whatever
[22:03] <holstein> or something easy to paste into a wiki page
[22:06] <ailo_> holstein, The thing is, the more options the script has, the more work. But, if we are planning on doing more testing later, a script like that could be used for many purposes, and we could reuse the different parts of it
[22:07] <holstein> if its as future-proof as possible
[22:07] <holstein> least maintenance
[22:09] <ailo_> Ok, so the way I see it. Are we going to ask a big crowd of users to help out with testing? If yes, then the test needs to be as easy as possible. A script could help us with that. 
[22:09] <holstein> i think it would be a nice tool
[22:10] <holstein> and a nice resource
[22:10] <scott-work> for the short term (i.e. next week) we should at least just test our machines by hand
[22:10] <holstein> assuming the results are easily postable
[22:10] <ailo_> A script would need to check for prerequisites, give user realtime privilege if missing, install programs if missing, ask the user to reboot and restart the test, then produce results, either in the form of a text file, or send it to our mail list automatically (in which case the user first needs to add mail and password)
[22:11] <ailo_> Launchpad, I don't know how that would work
[22:11] <holstein> ailo_: i think thats a great goal for it though
[22:12] <holstein> it actually wouldnt have to give RT permissions
[22:12] <holstein> or install a kernel
[22:12] <holstein> it could just state the facts about the system
[22:12] <holstein> run the test
[22:12] <holstein> and put out the results
[22:13] <ailo_> holstein, Well, how can we trust someone not technical to have set up the system right?
[22:13] <holstein> ailo_: yeah, im just saying, even if jack runs as-is
[22:13] <holstein> with bad results
[22:13] <holstein> thats a result
[22:13] <holstein> as long as the information is shared
[22:13] <holstein> the facts
[22:14] <ailo_> holstein, We can't have that sort of hidden variables in a test. We have no idea how that would change the results of the test
[22:14] <holstein> right
[22:15] <ailo_> holstein, Also, if we get strange numbers from a test. The next step would be to find out why.
[22:15] <holstein> im just saying, it will be un-hidden
[22:15] <holstein> we will know
[22:15] <ailo_> holstein, Yeah, ok
[22:15] <holstein> i mean, thats the kind of thing folks want to know to
[22:15] <holstein> when i suggest installing a new kernel
[22:15] <ailo_> holstein, Well, setting up the system is not the hardest part to implement into the script anyway
[22:15] <holstein> or whatever
[22:15] <holstein> they say 'how much better?'
[22:15] <holstein> and i say, not sure
[22:16] <holstein> ailo_: true
[22:16] <ailo_> So we might as well.
[22:16] <ailo_> And there are certainly all kinds of things we can't know will affect the test too
[22:17] <holstein> sure
[22:17] <holstein> i would like to have the output of cat /proc/interrupts
[22:17] <ailo_> The main thing is of course, that the tests are executed similarly on both kernels, and we get a diff between them, if there is one
[22:18] <ailo_> holstein, Ok. I will make note of that. I'll start putting up some points that we could include in the script
[22:18] <holstein> cool :)
[22:19] <ailo_> holstein, That suggestion would be a part of a general system info. arch, kernel, audio devices...
[22:20] <scott-work> ailo_: we could work up some of the things we would like to know and do it manually next week
[22:20] <scott-work> 1. uname
[22:20] <scott-work> 2. cat /proc/interrupts
[22:20] <scott-work> 2. etc
[22:20] <scott-work> use all this as the possible basis for moving forward with a script
[22:22] <ailo_> scott-work, holstein meganerd Started a new page about the script where we can add ideas on what the script should do https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_test_script
[22:25] <meganerd> I figured on "lspci -vv |grep -A 5 -i  audio" as well
[22:25] <meganerd> This will also output the firmware version of cards like my RME 9652
[22:26] <ailo_> meganerd, Please add to the wiki page as much as you want
[22:28] <ailo_> meganerd, And rearrange as well.
[22:28] <holstein> meganerd: ever better :)
[22:38] <meganerd> won't let me log in, internal server error
[22:39] <ailo_> meganerd, I get that every other time
[22:40] <ailo_> Also, after saving edits. 
[22:42] <scott-work> meganerd: hit F5 or refresh
[22:43] <scott-work> but i was editing it as well though
[22:46] <meganerd> did that several times.  Eventually just deleted everything after the word script in the url and hit enter
[22:46] <ailo_> meganerd, Right. And if your edit disappeared, just go back
[22:47] <ailo_> in history..
[22:48] <ailo_> meganerd, After an edit I will often have to refresh without the addition #preview in the url. If the edit was not saved, I go back in history. 
[22:49] <meganerd> good to know.  I usually avoid wikis :)
[22:53] <meganerd> Is csound usually installed with the ubuntustudio-audio?
[22:54] <scott-work> not anymore, but it could be again
[22:55] <scott-work> i think we were all stepping on each other's toes for a while editing that page :P
[22:55] <meganerd> I only ask because once upon a time I used it on a netbook from the CLI
[22:55] <meganerd> handy from a scripting point of view
[22:56] <scott-work> csound could be a dependency for this script if it is pacakged
[22:57] <meganerd> I can do the data collection part in an hour or so, spawning jack and csound and doing something will take me a lot longer, especially since the wife is at the end of her shift rotation :)
[23:02] <ailo_> meganerd, I added some more on the wiki. I'm not adding anything more for a while
[23:03] <ailo_> meganerd, On the prerequisite part, I can handle that. If you do start writing a script, just make it do the actual test for now, and we can add the rest later
[23:15] <scott-work> going home