[13:22] <Pendulum> apinheiro: TheMuso: do either of you know what the status is of accessibility in Unity 2D or is that going to be a 'next cycle' issue?
[13:24] <apinheiro> Pendulum, sorry, I don't know anything about unity 2d accessibility
[13:24] <apinheiro> but i guess that it would be "bad"
[13:25] <apinheiro> as with any other qt based app
[13:28]  * Pendulum suspects she will not be able to use Ubuntu past 11.04 :-/
[13:28] <Pendulum> (unless somehow Unity 2D is made accessible in time for when they remove the Classic Gnome fallback)
[13:31] <apinheiro> Pendulum, classic gnome fallback will be removed from ubuntu?
[13:32] <Pendulum> apinheiro: yes. It's been said a couple places that with 11.10, it'll be Unity 3D and Unity 2D
[13:32] <Pendulum> (at least according to Mark)
[13:32] <apinheiro> Pendulum, ok, that was totally new to me, it seem that I missed that couple places
[13:33] <Pendulum> I don't remember if he explicitly said it on his blog post about 2D, but I've seen it mentioned on a bug and somewhere else that I can't remember
[14:19] <issyl0> That's not terribly conducive to wide use, is it?  :-/
[14:24] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: Most of the issues got magically fixed for beta2. The big issue I see yet is the search box in Unity 3D.
[14:25] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: which issues?
[14:26] <charlie-tca> Most of the things that were broken bad. I did not check orca in 3D, but unity during testing was much better than even Beta1
[14:27] <charlie-tca> I was able to run a screen-reader install, even, and orca starts at login to the classic desktop
[14:27] <charlie-tca> there was even a launcher for applications on the Launcher bar now
[14:28] <Pendulum> *nods*
[14:29] <Pendulum> that's a win :)
[14:29] <charlie-tca> um, I didn't check things in 2D :-(
[14:29] <charlie-tca> I will throw my nvidia card in and test it this weekend, if you want me to
[14:29] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I didn't expect you too as it's not shipping on the CD this time, I don't think
[14:29] <AlanBell> I was just going to say I don't think unity2d is an available option yet
[14:29] <Pendulum> I was just trying to get a sense of where we are now and where it needs to get to by 11.10
[14:29] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I think there's a PPA
[14:30] <charlie-tca> I thought it was in the repositories
[14:30]  * charlie-tca goes hide again. better keep quiet and see where things are
[14:31] <Pendulum> heh
[16:24] <maco> charlie-tca: the search box has a patch thanks to DBO, it's just likely to be a 0-day SRU
[16:25] <Pendulum> maco: you haven't heard anything about Unity 2D a11y have you? other than the part where we know Riddell did something to help get Qt working with a11y
[16:25] <Riddell> Pendulum: there is none, it's QML which has none
[16:25] <maco> no i dont
[16:25] <maco> Riddell: what does that qt-at-spi package do?
[16:26] <Pendulum> Riddell: is this going to be fixed before we lose Classic Gnome in 11.10?
[16:26] <Riddell> maco: that does traditional Qt widgets (and it's far from complete)
[16:26] <maco> Riddell: do you have commit access to lp:unity?
[16:26] <Riddell> Pendulum: nope
[16:26] <Riddell> maco: I've no idea
[16:26] <Pendulum> so in other words a11y if you can't do 3D is going to be gone from 11.10
[16:26] <Riddell> Pendulum: unless there's a major effort by someone to bring AT to QML
[16:27] <maco> erm not what i ment
[16:27] <Pendulum> there goes my ability to use Ubuntu :(
[16:27] <maco> sorry, do you have access to *ubiquity*
[16:27] <Riddell> Pendulum: but maybe qt-at-spi will be ready then and you can come over to Kubuntu :)
[16:27] <Riddell> maco: yes
[16:27] <maco> Riddell: launchpad says yes!  can you do a merge for me?
[16:28] <Riddell> maco: I can if it's appropriate for post beta
[16:28] <Pendulum> Riddell: tbh, I will stop using any *buntu in protest and be loud about it if that's really what happens
[16:28] <maco> Riddell: https://code.launchpad.net/~maco.m/ubiquity/bug749653/+merge/57772
[16:28] <maco> Riddell: makes ubiquity more accessible. changes functionality for able-bodied people not at all
[16:28] <maco> (i put cjwatson because luke suggested colin or ev, but if you're here...)
[16:30] <Riddell> Pendulum: so in protest at Kubuntu getting AT you'd stop using any ubuntu? :(
[16:30] <maco> in protest to ubuntu-desktop team being ...having their anteriors rerouted to their posteriors
[16:30] <maco> or to the project leadership having that routing
[16:30] <charlie-tca> Isn't that a step the wrong way if Kubuntu gets accessibility at the cost of Ubuntu losing it?
[16:30] <maco> since...there are people who can set priorities, and this is apparently not one of them for the overarching ubuntu project
[16:31] <Pendulum> Riddell: maco's got it
[16:31] <Pendulum> so, which mailing list should I be raising this on?
[16:31] <maco> ubuntu-devel
[16:31] <maco> or hmm
[16:31] <maco> ayatana
[16:31] <Riddell> maco: you seem to be merging in merge conflicts there
[16:32] <maco> 11.10 discussion is starting on -devel
[16:32] <maco> Riddell: i think its just that my branch is a week old and colin's done a release since then
[16:32] <Riddell> maco: I'm not sure I understand what all that atk stuff does, can you explain it?
[16:33] <maco> Riddell: for each radio button and label, im requesting an accessible version (get_accessible()) then setting relationships between them:   label labels radio button,  radio button is labeled by label
[16:33] <maco> this way when the radio button is given focus by tabbing, it speaks the label
[16:35] <Riddell> maco: don't radio buttons already have their label as part of their widgets?
[16:35] <maco> Riddell: welcome to gtk
[16:37] <maco> do you want me to rearrange the debian/changelog for colin having done a release?
[16:38] <Riddell> maco: no I can do that easily enough
[16:44] <maco> for future reference, i have a bzr question.... is it possible to change a commit message? like say if you typed the wrong commit message in the wrong window, or used -m inappropriately...?
[16:53] <maco> i wonder if this patch is still valid https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/550717
[16:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 550717 in ubiquity "[Lucid] two accessiblity related bug with Ubiquity, with easy to fix" [High,Triaged]
[16:53] <maco> charlie-tca, AlanBell did you say orca stopped reading for you the other day?
[16:54] <AlanBell> it worked for me, I think that was charlie-tca 
[16:54] <Riddell> maco: merged!
[16:54] <charlie-tca> yes
[16:54] <Riddell> maco: but you should bzr update before doing a merge proposal to stop conflicts
[16:54] <charlie-tca> maco: when I clicked the mouse on the network applet, and when I clicked on an apport window
[16:55] <maco> Riddell: thanks
[17:20] <paul_h1> Pendulum: just catching up on history... why are you concerned about unity in the 11.10 release?
[17:20] <Pendulum> paul_h1: Unity 2D (not the same as Unity 3D which is what's in Natty) will be replacing classic gnome from everything I've been told
[17:22] <paul_h1> Pendulum: and unity 2D is being built with QML?
[17:22] <Pendulum> right
[17:32] <paul_h1> Pendulum: you'd think after building an (initially) inaccessible 3D unity then having to put a big effort into making it accessible they'd have learnt something...
[17:32] <Pendulum> paul_h1: it's because of the QML thing, I guess
[17:33] <paul_h1> Pendulum: it's because they're more concerned about making it pretty than about making sure everyone can use it :)
[17:34] <Pendulum> paul_h1: that too, but I try to be politic sometimes
[17:35] <paul_h1> Pendulum: are you raising the point anywhere?
[17:36] <Pendulum> paul_h1: I'm trying to decide the best place to raise it
[17:36] <paul_h1> Pendulum: could always try emailing Mark Shuttleworth :)
[17:38] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: not sure where to raise it. There was a user test posted on ubuntu-devel, most users could not use unity. The comments are it is great! 
[17:38] <charlie-tca> The fact it i
[17:38] <charlie-tca> the fact it was unusable, is because it is new. 
[17:38] <charlie-tca> If eleven of eleven can't use it, that makes it good??
[17:39] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I loved the usre comments
[17:41] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: did you see the question about changing to classic from log in? do you know if there's a way to either make orca work before the user is logged in or where i should go poking?
[17:44] <paul_h1> Pendulum: plenty of people on the orca list have orca running on the gdm screen so it's certainly possible
[17:45] <Pendulum> paul_h1: yeah, that's what I thought. I just don't use orca so have no idea how to tell the person to set it up
[17:46] <paul_h1> Pendulum: I'll see if I can get it going :) nevewr tried before, never really had the need for orca at the gdm prompt.
[17:47] <Pendulum> paul_h1: also, don't know if it makes a difference that the person on the ubuntu-accessibility list seems to be using Natty
[18:04] <paul_h1> Pendulum: there is an accessible login page on the orca wiki. I seriously doubt anything on it would apply to natty (or even maverick) looks archaic, some of it
[18:06] <Pendulum> :-/
[18:08] <paul_h1> can the environment you boot into be selected with the keyboard? perhaps just providing instructions on how to do it would be best
[19:05] <maco> O_O 1900 bugs in ubiquity. wow
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: the only way I know is he will need a sighted person to change it over. 
[20:06] <charlie-tca> maco: half are mine ;-)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Went fertilizer shopping; back now
[20:07] <maco> i wrote a not-yet-tested patch for another a11y bug in ubiquity
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Yay!
[20:07] <charlie-tca> I can test them, if you tell how to get in there.
 this is interesting ! https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/TestingDistro
 just noticed in #a11y
[20:41] <UndiFineD> Pendulum, AlanBell, hajour ^^
[20:41] <hajour> hi all
[20:42] <j1mc> charlie-tca: fertilizer shopping? :)
[20:44] <hajour> nice accessibility tools testing
[20:44] <hajour> hi j1mc  :)
[20:45] <j1mc> hi hajour 
[20:45] <UndiFineD> charlie-tca is being silly, paying for horse poo
[20:45] <hajour> i not remember that i have see your name earlier
[20:45] <hajour> j1mc, ^
[20:45] <hajour> lol UndiFineD 
[20:46] <j1mc> hajour: i am new here. i am working on ubuntu-docs, but ubuntu-accessibility is (in my mind) a family member of accessibility.
[20:47] <hajour> btw Pendulum  , AlanBell  and charlie-tca  and the rest. UndiFineD  and i are probably not around tomorrow we go to ubuntu local jam
[20:48] <hajour> a ok welcome j1mc 
[20:48] <charlie-tca> j1mc: gotta make the grass green again
[20:48] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD, hajour : ever tried using that with Unti
[20:48] <hajour> normally i am more around in chat.but last 2/3 weeks i am struggling reading logs
[20:48] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD, hajour : ever tried using that with Unity?
[20:49] <UndiFineD> no, I just learned of it a few minutes ago
[20:49] <UndiFineD> I am not that fast
[20:49] <charlie-tca> that's why we have to write something for us to use... :-)
[20:49] <charlie-tca> It is a great resource to start at, though
[20:50] <hajour> just have seen it from the link from UndiFineD  if that is what you mean charlie-tca 
[20:50] <charlie-tca> I am not sure even Gnome3 passes it now
[20:50] <charlie-tca> We have references to it on the wiki
[20:51] <hajour> UndiFineD,  have trouble with reading to  if it is a lot
[20:52] <hajour> also he have problems with reading small fonts like size 12
[20:52]  * UndiFineD prefers 14px
[20:52] <charlie-tca> It is very good material. It gives a place to start when we are trying to define tests
[20:53] <hajour> its nice it is there now thought
[20:53] <charlie-tca> Yes.
[20:54]  * hajour got fonts size 16 here in chat.it could not come bigger.but i prefer size 18
[20:54] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD: I don't think it is horse poo, more like steer :-)
[20:55] <hajour> btw i got a consult this week by office for adjust work
[20:55] <hajour> or i will go fit there
[20:55] <charlie-tca> hajour: great!
[20:55] <UndiFineD> charlie-tca, did you taste it ?
[20:55] <UndiFineD> :P
[20:55] <charlie-tca> um, no
[20:56] <charlie-tca> but I smelled it. PHew!
[20:56] <UndiFineD> hahah
[20:56] <hajour> o groose UndiFineD 
[20:56] <hajour> bleh
[20:57] <hajour> watch out UndiFineD  else i give it to you for breakfast
[20:57] <charlie-tca> woo! that would be bad, too.
[20:57] <hajour> farms all around here so ... :P
[20:57] <UndiFineD> farmers here only have chocolate sauce
[20:59] <hajour> but charlie-tca  if they decide i fit there i come on the waiting list and then have to wait 4 till 7 years for its my turn.if i am lucky.it can also be 10 years
[20:59] <hajour> yak UndiFineD 
[20:59] <hajour> he means cow poo
[21:00] <hajour> btw i am nagging them to help with paying to extend my passport by government
[21:01] <hajour> if i get chance on work i will really need my passport
[21:01] <hajour> also for uds btw :S
[21:02] <charlie-tca> yup
[21:02] <charlie-tca> yes
[21:03] <charlie-tca> Sooner you get on the list, the better, right?
[21:03] <hajour> o hope i not have said something  wrong here
[21:03] <hajour> yes
[21:03] <charlie-tca> We have to get away from the cow talk
[21:03] <hajour> XD
[21:04] <charlie-tca> but at least the words were clean, even if the rest is not.
[21:05] <hajour> i will go try to let them see ubuntu as official volunteer work. maybe i get then some money from government.solution .they are rid of me and i can then full time work on ubuntu
[21:05] <hajour> no i got and maybe it will become a yes
[21:06] <hajour> i can always try
[21:06] <charlie-tca> that's the way to do it.
[21:06] <charlie-tca> If you don't try, you don't know.
[21:06] <hajour> and then i not have to wait 4 till 7 years
[21:07] <hajour> yes thought so to
[21:08] <hajour> anyway i let see i want to work i think
[21:09] <hajour> and maybe if it becomes a yes that i will get some support for a more adjust pc for to work on
[22:14] <Pendulum> hajour: have fun!
[22:15] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: yeah, that's pretty brand new
[22:15] <Pendulum> (the testing distro)
[22:17] <TheMuso> Riddell: Kubuntu gettina 11y will be more than just qQT at-spi. I dare say much work will be needed on KDE before users can properly use it with screen readers etc.
[22:18]  * TheMuso groans. QML? :S
[22:20] <Pendulum> TheMuso: am I right that it makes sense to start campaigning now for Classic Desktop to be kept around as a fallback for a while?
[22:21] <TheMuso> Pendulum: I think so.
[22:21] <TheMuso> Even if qt AT-spi is completed, teh fact that a markup language is being used to design a GUI brings all kinds of yuck.
[22:21] <Pendulum> yeah
[22:22] <TheMuso> What sucks even more, is that unity 2d and 3D are different code bases, so I don't even think 2d has the good keyboard shortcuts we need.
[22:22] <paul_h1> or offer gnome-shell as an alternative? (assuming the gnome a11y team get that working properly)
[22:23] <TheMuso> GNome shell being in universe, will not be possible unless Canonical are willing to support it, which I doubt.
[22:23] <Pendulum> also isn't Gnome Shell 3D?
[22:23] <TheMuso> Yes.
[22:24] <TheMuso> Yeah I am thinking teh same as you, we need to take care of those who don't have the drivers etc installed, and lots of blind people don't use a monitor.
[22:24] <Pendulum> so will have the same problems for that as Unity 3D does
[22:24] <TheMuso> Yep.
[22:24] <Pendulum> I have to run my main machine on a VM so that I can use voice recognition on really bad days
[22:24] <paul_h1> didn't realise that, why are ui's being designed that can't function without 3d acceleration
[22:25] <TheMuso> Because the vast majority of video hardware sold in the last 5 years or so is 3D capable.
[22:25] <TheMuso> Even my old thinkpad from 2004 can run unity
[22:25] <TheMuso> Granted that is with a Radeon chip.
[22:26] <Pendulum> *nods*
[22:26] <paul_h1> but there's a growing trend towards running the same ui's on devices like smart phones and the like. surely a toolkit should utilise the capabilities of the hardware it's running on but be able to fall back if the hardware can't support everything it offers?
[22:27] <TheMuso> Yes but smart phone hardware is increasingly able to do 3D.
[22:27] <Pendulum> I was serious earlier, though, that if we get stuck with only Unity 2d & 3D and I can't use it, then I will be very vocal with why I can no longer use Ubuntu
[22:27] <TheMuso> I can understand that.
[22:28] <TheMuso> Its hard for me to protest, given I am a Canonical employee.
[22:28] <paul_h1> yep, why do you need to run within a vm Pendulum?
[22:28] <TheMuso> if not impossible really.
[22:28] <Pendulum> (I'll probably stick around parts within the community, like here, but it'll tell a hell of a lot to get me using it and recommending it in that situation)
[22:29] <TheMuso> Well, XFCE is coming along well with a11y, so that may be the next go-to point.
[22:29] <Pendulum> paul_h1: I have mobility issues and on really bad days I can barely use a mouse so need access to voice recognition software. there is no working voice recognition solution for Linux that I've found, but I can use MacSpeech dictate and it'll work with VMWare Fusion
[22:30] <Pendulum> what gets me is the number of people who tell me that accessibility is a core value for Ubuntu (and by people I mean managers and higher in Canonical)
[22:30] <Pendulum> and I always feel like I can't call them on it because I need to play nice to get stuff done
[22:30] <Pendulum> I will stop playing nice if I just get screwed over by doing so
[22:31] <TheMuso> Yeah, the tech gets built, and then a11y has to be added after the fact...
[22:31] <paul_h1> supporting desktops like xfce is on the orca roadmap. whether they'll have the resources to get it working right any time soon is debatable
[22:32] <TheMuso> paul_h1: XFCE upstrea are also doing all they can to get XFCE up to scratch with keyboard nav etc.
[22:32] <TheMuso> upstream
[22:32] <Pendulum> my own separate rant is the fact that a11y seems to keep getting talked about in terms of blind/visual impairment ignoring all the other groups where a11y is important, but that's separate from my annoyance with a11y in Ubuntu
[22:34] <TheMuso> Yes, I'll second that.
[22:34] <TheMuso> Its probably because in the Linux community at least, we are the largest group.
[22:34] <Pendulum> yeah, I'm sure
[22:35] <Pendulum> it doesn't just happen in Linux, but I see it more there because that's where I do stuff
[22:36] <TheMuso> Yep.
[22:36] <Pendulum> I suppose it's evening out with how in the physical world so many people equate access with wheelchair users ;-)
[22:37] <paul_h1> wondering whose decision it was not to implement CSPI for the d-bus at-spi. so many projects were using it. including dasher and gnome voice control
[22:38] <TheMuso> paul_h1: It was a matter of manpower, or a lack there of.
[22:38] <TheMuso> paul_h1: It would have been kept if someone steped up to work on it.
[22:38] <TheMuso> stepped
[22:41] <paul_h1> well it seems there are c bindings to the new at-spi but they're incompatible with the old ones? the Accessibility/GNOME3 page says it wouldn't be that much work to write a compatibility layer between the two. would save quite a few projects it seems if someone did
[22:42] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[22:42] <maco> TheMuso: a11y's like security. bolting it on afterward works poorly
[22:43] <TheMuso> maco: Hell yeah!
[22:43] <maco> my dad guffawed when i said that no-i-will-not-do-this-on-your-website-because-its-inaccessible.  "blind people can't use computers, silly!"  *blink* *blink*
[22:43] <TheMuso> haha
[22:44] <TheMuso> Well, if things keep on going this way, I think Vinux will gain popularity and strength, since its Ubuntu based, but can move to whatever DE is accessible for users.
[22:45] <maco> btw, TheMuso, i have another patch i'll be testing out tonight for more screenreaderiness in ubiquity. Riddell committed the other one
[22:48] <TheMuso> maco: Sweet.
[22:49] <TheMuso> maco: Thanks for your work, I should give ubiquity another look and see what I can do to make it better.
[22:49] <maco> its just a little one though. making the "install" button actually say "install" not "forward" because nowadays apparently it installs after partitioning, not at the end, so if you dont know that it's the point of no return, then....ew
[22:49] <paul_h1> yikes
[22:50] <maco> TheMuso: if you can tell me how to get accerciser to see it, thatd be wonderful.  then i could attempt to work on that script in orca.
[22:51] <TheMuso> maco: I'll see what I can do next week.
[23:23] <paul_h1> TheMuso: is natty running the d-bus at-spi?
[23:40] <TheMuso> paul_h1: Not by default, but it is available.