[19:46] <thorwil> godbyk: drive-by increasing sanity level on ayatana list, eh? ;)
[19:53] <godbyk> thorwil: My feeble attempt, yes. :-)
[19:54] <godbyk> I figured a quick response would generate a bashful reply, 'Oh, well, nevermind then.'  Sadly, that's not what happened.
[20:00] <godbyk> Hey, rickfosb. How's it going?
[20:01] <godbyk> Hey, c7p.
[20:01] <c7p> hi godbyk
[20:02] <rickfosb> Doing great, godbyk!
[20:02] <c7p> hello all :)
[20:02] <rickfosb> And you?
[20:03] <godbyk> Not too bad.
[20:04] <issyl0> Hey!
[20:05] <rickfosb> Hi c7p.   Meeting not for another hour, right?
[20:05] <piratemurray> another hour yup
[20:06] <piratemurray> i thought it was now.
[20:06] <piratemurray> silly british summer time!!
[20:06] <issyl0> I thought it was now too.
[20:06] <issyl0> But then I realised: 20:00 UTC.
[20:06] <issyl0> Gargh.
[20:06] <issyl0> Oh well.  :-)
[20:06] <issyl0> I got here in time as well.  :P
[20:37] <godbyk> That wasn't as tricky as I thought it might be. :)
[20:43] <CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Question about the use of "\acronym". Not in style guide, but I see it all over the Installation chapter.
[20:43] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: It's not in the style guide? Hmm.. I'll have to fix that.
[20:43] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: What's your question?
[20:44] <CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Not in Index, and search using find does not bring up any results for it.
[20:46] <CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Using this guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
[20:46] <rickfosb> godbyk, CrustyBarnacle, we probably need to add some verbiage on use (when to and not to use the tag)
[20:47] <CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Yes. Should it be used on first occurrence of acronym only?
[20:47] <rickfosb> sounds reasonable
[20:47] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: \acronym is a formatting command.  It formats the text in small caps.
[20:48] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: So it should be used each time the acronym is used.
[20:48] <monfort> Hello everyone. I'm new in the whole "ubuntu-manual" think, and as I can see it looks like I'm gonna have to learn about LateX...
[20:48] <CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk OK
[20:49] <monfort> I thought I could easily help as a chapter author but it's seems that it's gonna be more complicated than that.
[20:49] <debayan> We are supposed to start in a short while, right?
[20:49] <monfort> it seems*
[20:49] <godbyk> monfort: Welcome!  Don't worry. The parts of LaTeX used by authors and editors is fairly easy to learn.  You can find most of the information you'll need in the style guide at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>.  Feel free to ask me any questions you have along the way, too.
[20:49] <godbyk> debayan: Yes, we'll start the meeting in 10-15 minutes.
[20:49] <rickfosb> monfort, its not that bad.
[20:49] <debayan> cool godbyk
[20:50] <godbyk> monfort: Also, there are others who are willing to help with the formatting if you just want to focus on writing the content or proofreading.
[20:50] <rickfosb> monfort, if you supply the typing, the editors can help with the format
[20:50] <monfort> Well actually I thought it was all about using Libreoffice and Scribus ...
[20:51] <monfort> And does learning LateX involves learning HTML ?
[20:53] <CrustyBarnacle> msg monfort http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
[20:53] <shrini> hei guys
[20:53] <shrini> how are you doing all?
[20:53] <issyl0> Hey.
[20:53] <shrini> hai issyl0
[20:53] <monfort> shrini, really great thanks !
[20:54] <shrini> monfort: :-)
[20:54] <shrini> happy to see you all again
[20:54] <monfort> CrustyBarnacle : Oh great I never saw that webpage ! :D
[20:54] <issyl0> monfort: No, learning LaTeX does not involve learning HTML.  LaTeX is great - I'd recommend just looking through the files in the existing bzr branches to get a general idea, and of course the style guide.
[20:55] <godbyk> Hey, issyl0. Thanks for your recent editing help on the maverick edition.
[20:55] <debayan> issyl0: I hope this session is being logged.
[20:56] <monfort> Okay I will do it. I won't participate to the meeting today, because I first need to learn on this. I'm gonna start tomorrow and will let you all know about my progress. ( I have to start from the basics ... ).
[20:56] <issyl0> godbyk: No worries - always happy to help - seeking to get more involved actually, hence my application for an editor position.
[20:56] <c7p> have in mind i will update the content of get involved pages today or tomorrow, i hope the new content will help you
[20:56] <monfort> Just one question : Who should I keep the email of ?
[20:57] <CrustyBarnacle> I recently started on LaTex. Not as steep a learning curve as it seems to start contributing.
[20:57] <c7p> monfort: you can send mails to mailing list (if i understood the question right)
[20:57] <monfort> Is it the same kind of mailing list that uses dizans of e-mails per day ?
[20:58] <monfort> Seriously sometimes I can't read all of my mails from newsletters and stuff so with a mailing list ... :/
[20:58] <rickfosb> monfort; to date, not that many emails from this list.
[20:58] <godbyk> monfort: The Ubuntu Manual mailing list is fairly low-traffic at the moment.
[20:59] <monfort> Okay then I'll subscribe !
[20:59] <issyl0> godbyk: I enjoy contributing.  :-)
[20:59] <hannie> Hello to all of you
[20:59] <issyl0> Hi hannie.
[20:59] <monfort> I have to go now. Really happy to know you all guys and hope to be able to help as soon as I can.
[20:59] <godbyk> Thanks for coming, monfort.
[20:59] <monfort> I'm really happy to start contributing and feel part of something great !
[20:59] <monfort> By !
[21:00] <issyl0> (Ah, the satisfaction of making people happy.  :-))
[21:00] <c7p> hehe yeah, just a motivate to keep contributing
[21:00] <shrini> :-)
[21:01] <piratemurray> hi guys!
[21:01] <issyl0> c7p: Yeah.
[21:02] <issyl0> (Hrm.  I'll be back in 2 mins.  But, o/)
[21:02] <c7p> meeting in 5 mins, raise your hands guys !
[21:02] <piratemurray> sounds good
[21:02] <issyl0> o/ before I disappear for two minutes...
[21:02] <hannie> ok, 5 min
[21:02] <rickfosb> ok 5
[21:02] <CrustyBarnacle> OK 5
[21:04] <debayan> I hope I can contribute properly.
[21:06] <issyl0> Right, hi.
[21:06] <c7p> debayan: don't worry the team will help you to do it
[21:09] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[21:09] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is godbyk.
[21:09] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:10] <godbyk> Hello, everyone. Thanks for coming.  Before we get started, can we have a quick roll call?  Just a quick 'hello' from anyone who's attending the meeting, please.
[21:10] <issyl0> Hello!
[21:10] <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy
[21:10] <piratemurray> hia
[21:10] <shrini> Hello friends
[21:10] <rickfosb> hello
[21:11] <debayan> Hello everyone. Great to be here :)
[21:11] <godbyk> Thanks!
[21:11] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Getting Started with 10.10: What still needs to be done?
[21:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Getting Started with 10.10: What still needs to be done?
[21:12] <godbyk> I think the Maverick edition of the manual should be nearly ready for publication.
[21:12] <godbyk> I know that we still need to take some screenshots.
[21:12] <godbyk> What else needs to be done for this edition?
[21:13] <hannie> What's the use of publishing Maverick when Natty is coming so soon?
[21:13] <issyl0> I've done a fair bit of editing over the last few days - grammar/spelling/LaTeX/whatever.
[21:13] <shrini> I submitted some screenshots
[21:13] <shrini> do anyone get them?
[21:13] <shrini> are they useful?
[21:13] <CrustyBarnacle> Reviewing Installation
[21:13] <godbyk> hannie: Well, since it's practically finished already, there's no harm in it.  Also, it will serve as the base for the Natty edition.
[21:14] <hannie> ok
[21:14] <issyl0> hannie: On the other side, what's the point of wasting a manual we've written?
[21:14] <godbyk> shrini: Ah, I see that most of the screenshots have been submitted.  Great!
[21:14] <godbyk> It looks like there are just a handful of them missing still.
[21:14] <shrini> godbyk: oh. thanks
[21:15] <shrini> i thought that they were not sent
[21:15] <shrini> to server
[21:15] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Would you like to look over the installation chapter of the maverick edition for us?
[21:15] <godbyk> It looks like we're just missing one screenshot and one is pending approval.
[21:16] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk Yes
[21:16] <c7p> there is a problem with that screenshot, quickshot must have a bug
[21:16] <godbyk> c7p: The pending screenshot or the missing screenshot?  Can we take it manually?
[21:16] <c7p> maybe we can capture it manually and cut the image with gimp to make it proper for the manual
[21:17] <godbyk> c7p: Okay. I'll look into that.
[21:17] <CrustyBarnacle> c7p: Shutter works great for taking and editing screenshots :-)
[21:17] <godbyk> Are there any other to do items for the maverick edition that anyone can think of?
[21:18] <c7p> CrustyBarnacle: i love gimp :) but maybe i should try Shutter also
[21:18] <hannie> I like shutter too
[21:18] <hannie> quick and easy
[21:18] <rickfosb> godbyk, when we are ready to 'publish', is it linked to the manual page (simple as that?)?
[21:19] <godbyk> rickfosb: When we 'publish' the manual, we upload the PDFs to the website and also publish it to lulu.com (where you can purchase a printed copy).
[21:19] <rickfosb> thanks
[21:19] <godbyk> All right, let's move on to the Natty edition.
[21:20] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition authors and chapter editors
[21:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition authors and chapter editors
[21:20] <piratemurray> woohoo!
[21:20] <CrustyBarnacle> msg rickfosb what is the publication date for Maverick? What's our deadline to get to translators?
[21:20] <issyl0> Cool.
[21:20] <shrini> The GUI is so different in natty
[21:20] <godbyk> Earlier this week, we asked for volunteers to write and edit the chapters of the Natty edition of the manual.
[21:20] <shrini> have to write from scratch on the GUI part
[21:20] <godbyk> We also contacted the previous authors and editors to see if they'd like to reprise their roles.
[21:21] <debayan> I have some experience with unity.
[21:21] <hannie> https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydERxaWhGTkU2NTVDU2pxYXNHWWR1MlE&hl=en&gid=0
[21:21] <godbyk> The list of assigned authors and editors is shown here: http://bit.ly/gG59j7
[21:21] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle, We can probably try to set a date today,
[21:21] <c7p> this is the list of assigned chapters to authors
[21:22] <godbyk> c7p: We should ask the new volunteers if they have any preference as to which chapter they're assigned.
[21:22] <c7p> there are like 8 authors and editors that aren't in this list because they haven't a chapter so don't worry
[21:22] <hannie> who assigns them?
[21:22] <c7p> of course
[21:22] <shrini> :-)
[21:22] <c7p> rickfosb will assign you the chapter
[21:23] <rickfosb> hannie, I'll work with them and assign
[21:23] <rickfosb> c7p, yes
[21:23] <issyl0> Cool.
[21:23] <shrini> great
[21:23] <godbyk> If anyone else would like to volunteer to be an author or editor, please feel free.
[21:23] <c7p> but he is new so as most of you so don't make him anxious :)
[21:23] <godbyk> We'll take all the help we can get. :)
[21:24] <rickfosb> I'll reach out via email over the next day or so and start updating the list.
[21:24] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Indeed
[21:24] <CrustyBarnacle> should we advertise for hel at LUGs?
[21:24] <issyl0> What's the ratio of editors to authors to chapters to applicants for roles?
[21:24] <piratemurray> can i volunteer for the prologue?
[21:25] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yes, feel free to advertise and help find some volunteers.
[21:25] <issyl0> Who controls that Google Doc?
[21:25] <rickfosb> piratemurry, -> prologue
[21:25] <rickfosb> looks good
[21:25] <c7p> issyl0:
[21:25] <c7p> issyl0: i do
[21:26] <hannie> I have sent an email this morning
[21:26] <rickfosb> c7p, do you have nick to email for all of us?
[21:26] <issyl0> c7p: Ah, right.
[21:26] <debayan_> Hey I would like to take up the Ubuntu Desktop chapter.
[21:27] <rickfosb> piratemurry, was the Author, or Editor?
[21:27] <piratemurray> what do you need?
[21:27] <piratemurray> author would be first preference but i'm not fussed
[21:27] <piratemurray> happy to help in any way
[21:27] <rickfosb> piratemurray; author or editor for prologue?
[21:27] <hannie> who reads jobs@ubuntu-manual.org?
[21:28] <shrini> i like to be author of working with ubuntu
[21:28] <rickfosb> piratemurray; thanks
[21:28] <issyl0> 55
[21:28] <issyl0> Argh.
[21:28] <godbyk> hannie: A few of us do: me, c7p, cwoollard, rickfosb.
[21:28] <piratemurray> rickfosb: so that is author then?
[21:28] <piratemurray> excellent
[21:29] <rickfosb> piratemurray:  is Author for Prologue
[21:29] <c7p> rickfosb: no i don't know the nicknames, PM me authors and editors
[21:29] <CrustyBarnacle> msg c7p mario@petrielabs.com
[21:29] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Be sure to put a / in front of 'msg' otherwise it still sends it to the channel. :)
[21:30] <shrini> Shall I take "Working with Ubuntu" ?
[21:30] <issyl0> CrustyBarnacle: You're missing a / before "msg". :-)
[21:30] <debayan_> :)
[21:30] <rickfosb> c7p; thanks.  Rest of you, I'll use the 'list' to reach out as needed.
[21:30] <CrustyBarnacle> I see...
[21:30] <godbyk> Okay, shall we move on to the next agenda item?
[21:31] <CrustyBarnacle> let's go...
[21:31] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Screenshot size for Natty edition
[21:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  Screenshot size for Natty edition
[21:31] <godbyk> c7p: Do you know what this topic is about?
[21:32] <c7p> i didn't write it :)
[21:32] <godbyk> In the agenda item, it says that the screenshots in the 10.04 edition of the manual are too large and that it's ahrd to read the text and look at the pictures at the same time.
[21:32] <CrustyBarnacle> my vote is for the higher resolution, but sized down, so we get readable screenshots.
[21:33] <godbyk> They suggest using 800×600 resolution screenshots instead of the current 1024×768.
[21:33] <shrini> 800x600 would be nice
[21:33] <godbyk> I remember doing some tests early on when we started taking screenshots.
[21:33] <godbyk> One of the problems with reducing the screenshot resolution is that the screenshot start to look very pixelated and muddy at lower resolutions.
[21:33] <hannie> Is the quality fo 800x600 good enough?
[21:33] <rickfosb> I didn't write it either, but if you flip through the manual, some of the shots are full page, some rest within the main column... seems a mis match
[21:34] <hannie> *of
[21:34] <godbyk> rickfosb: Here's how the screenshot size in the manual is determined:
[21:34] <godbyk> We take all the screenshots at the same resolution (currently 1024×768).
[21:35] <godbyk> The widest screenshot (currently we use the full desktop screenshot for this) is scaled to fit in the margins of the manual (across the main text block and the sidenotes area).
[21:35] <godbyk> All of the screenshots are scaled using this same scaling factor.
[21:36] <godbyk> If the scaled screenshot is narrow enough to fit in the main text block, then it's centered there and the caption appears adjacent in the sidenotes area.
[21:36] <rickfosb> godbyk; so, menu drop downs, etc., will be a small centered shot.. and desktop or full application will be large;  makes sense
[21:36] <godbyk> If the scaled screenshot is too wide for the main text block, then it will be centered across the full page (main text block + sidenotes area) and the caption will appear above or below the screenshot.
[21:37] <CrustyBarnacle> what if the max width was only main text block?
[21:38] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: We could scale all the screenshots so that the max width is only the main text block, but then the text in the screenshots is difficult to read (as it's so small).
[21:38] <rickfosb> So, back to question, do we have a sample of 800 vs 1024 to compare?
[21:38] <CrustyBarnacle> Screenshots are for reference only, not for providing actual instructions. So...
[21:39] <godbyk> rickfosb: In the lucid-e1 repository, there is a lucid-screens/ dir that has samples taken at different resolutions.
[21:40] <rickfosb> I'll look
[21:40] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: While the screenshots aren't there to provide instructions themselves, it is frustrating to not be able to read the text in the screenshot.
[21:40] <issyl0> godbyk: Absolutely.
[21:40] <issyl0> (Re: the frustration.)
[21:40] <godbyk> The samples in that directory are taken at 1024×768, 1280×800, and 800×600.
[21:40] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: I see...
[21:41] <godbyk> Having said all that, we can certainly take another look at the problem and see if we can improve upon the previous (Lucid edition) solution.
[21:41] <godbyk> Does anyone else have any questions or comments on this topic?
[21:42] <hannie> can you give us a link to the examples?
[21:42] <debayan_> I need to catch up with the instructions at http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
[21:42] <shrini> is there any weblink available for a quick check on resolutions?
[21:42] <CrustyBarnacle> Can we agree to review the samples and discuss later (next meeting)?
[21:43] <godbyk> hannie: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/files/head:/lucid-screens/
[21:43] <hannie> thank you
[21:43] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Sure.
[21:43] <rickfosb> godbyk, I'll review as well, but unless there is a compelling need to change...,  I'm ok with the current process.
[21:44] <godbyk> All right. Let's take a look at it and come back to our next meeting with our findings.
[21:44] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Do we need to provide screenshots for non-Unity users?
[21:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Do we need to provide screenshots for non-Unity users?
[21:45] <godbyk> My initial response to this question is, 'Sure, why not?'  But I'm not sure what concerns prompted the question.  Anyone else?
[21:45] <shrini> what do you mean by non-unity users?
[21:45] <issyl0> shrini: GNOME Classic?
[21:45] <debayan_> We will need to this because Unity crashes a lot, and many users are likely to go back to Gnome
[21:45] <rickfosb> I have one of the pc's that doen't support Unity.  So, I 'found' my way around the system menus;
[21:45] <rickfosb> *doesn't
[21:45] <godbyk> shrini: I think they're referring to the users who will see the GNOME desktop instead of Unity due to lack of sufficient hardware to run Unity.
[21:45] <CrustyBarnacle> would the screenshots be side-by-side or in a separate section?
[21:45] <debayan_> also the hardware support issue.
[21:46] <issyl0> If we provide screenshots for non-Unity users, we should provide narritive within the manual about GNOME too - is this feasible/likely?
[21:46] <issyl0> s/narritive/narrative/ sorry.
[21:46] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: I think that the Unity and GNOME sections would be different.
[21:46] <rickfosb> I'm thinking we just need to cover the 'general' navigation issues.
[21:46] <c7p> well regarding unity, from what i know there will be unity 2d for old pc and unity 3d for new machines -independs to hardware-
[21:46] <debayan_> I agree it should be different. Infact lets have separate manuals.
[21:46] <shrini> Does the Gnome desktop comes in default ubuntu 11.04?
[21:47] <piratemurray> do you not have to do some advanced tweaking to get GNOME back. i thought it was either Unity or Unity 2D (for the older computers)
[21:47] <shrini> or we have to install it separaely?
[21:47] <godbyk> debayan_: The problem with having two separate manuals it that you have to know beforehand which manual you need.
[21:47] <hannie> the gnome part can be copied from Maverick I think
[21:47] <rickfosb> godbyk; agree with one manual
[21:47] <godbyk> debayan_: One of the use cases for our manual is that I should be able to hand a copy of the manual along with an Ubuntu CD to a friend and they should be able to install and use Ubuntu without pestering me with incessant questions. :)
[21:47] <CrustyBarnacle> one manual...
[21:47] <c7p> yeah one manual to avoid confusion
[21:47] <debayan_> godbyk: hmm, good point.
[21:48] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Totally
[21:48] <piratemurray> one manual to rule them all
[21:48] <rickfosb> I suspect that the 2d section would not be 'large' when compared to the changes we'll need to make to 3d
[21:48] <godbyk> Is the person who added this agenda item present?  If so, can you explain your concerns a bit more?
[21:49] <rickfosb> godbyk; that was me.  So, the concern is, do we need to support non unity users?  I have a new netbook, but it doesn't do unity 'as is'
[21:49] <debayan_> godbyk: I remember the openSuSE manual. It had Gnome and KDE parts separate.
[21:49] <hannie> MrX
[21:49] <c7p> first of all, we talk hypothetically ? are there tangible differences with unity 2d and unity 3d that will affect the manual ? first we should answer this -if anyone knows-
[21:50] <godbyk> rickfosb: Ah, gotcha.
[21:50] <debayan_> rickfosb: You are expected to use unity 2d then.
[21:50] <rickfosb> godbyk; poulsbo drivers aren't ready, yet.
[21:50] <godbyk> I think that we should provide at least enough information that they know what they're looking at and provide pointers to further documentation.
[21:51] <rickfosb> especially, if our graphic shows some nice application icons... and the user doesn't see them
[21:51] <issyl0> Yeah.
[21:52] <godbyk> Personally, I'm not overly concerned about the size of the manual (as long as it doesn't get too out of hand), and would rather err on the side of including too much information than not enough.
[21:52] <godbyk> It's very disconcerting when you're following along in a manual and you've encountered a situation that the manual doesn't cover.
[21:52] <issyl0> godbyk: Definitely.
[21:52]  * issyl0 agrees.
[21:53] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Would an increase change the cost to buy it?
[21:53] <rickfosb> agree;  Since I have a netbook with the 2d issue,  I can help out with providing some shots.
[21:53] <godbyk> So if we don't include information about GNOME classic (which may be reasonable if it's unlikely that most Natty users will encounter it), then we should at least make mention of it, explain why the reader may have encountered GNOME classic, and where they can go to get more information about it.
[21:53] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: The price of the printed manuals is based on the page count. So the more pages in the manual, the more expensive it is.
[21:54] <godbyk> rickfosb: Did this satisfactorily address your concerns for non-Unity users?
[21:54] <rickfosb> yes!
[21:54] <godbyk> Excellent!
[21:54] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Documenting Ubuntu derivatives
[21:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  Documenting Ubuntu derivatives
[21:55] <shrini> what are they?
[21:55] <godbyk> Ubuntu derivatives would be Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc.
[21:55] <shrini> kubutu/edubuntu/xubuntu/liubuntu/mint
[21:55] <issyl0> Ubuntu derivatives as in [X|K|Edu|...]buntu?
[21:55] <debayan_> There are differences in unity 2d and 3d http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/unity-2d-a-quick-look-at-the-latest-updates/
[21:55] <debayan_> oops
[21:55] <hannie> Like edubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu?
[21:56] <godbyk> Right now we mention those derivatives in the introduction, I think, but otherwise we don't talk about them at all.
[21:56] <c7p> yeah i agree
[21:56] <piratemurray> we make mention of them? not a whole chapter though..... few paragraphs
[21:56] <godbyk> The question is, should we include more information about these derivatives in the manual?
[21:56] <debayan_> I agree, and we mention links.
[21:56] <shrini> I hope that little content is enough
[21:56] <CrustyBarnacle> Mention + Links
[21:57] <hannie> Yes, keep it short
[21:57] <shrini> because explaining KDE needs a full book
[21:57] <piratemurray> maybe some reasons why one would want to use the derivite
[21:57] <CrustyBarnacle> Can we link to actual documentation for all derivatives?
[21:57] <godbyk> My concern is that I wouldn't talk about them to much in the beginning because you're forcing a choice on the unsuspecting reader.
[21:57] <piratemurray> such as "use Lubuntu if you want XYZ...."
[21:57] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: good point
[21:57] <godbyk> How should the reader decide if they'd prefer a different derivative if they're just getting started with Ubuntu proper?
[21:57] <debayan_> We shoud mention it at the end.
[21:57] <debayan_> Advanced Topics.
[21:58] <piratemurray> that's how i discovered the derivites when i started using ubuntu
[21:58] <shrini> That would be fine
[21:58] <godbyk> I could see adding a section toward the end of the manual that gives a page or two to discuss the pros and cons of each derivative and provides pointers to documentation about them.
[21:58] <piratemurray> almost as an advanced topic after i was comfortable with Linux/ Ubuntu
[21:59] <shrini> with a screenshot?
[21:59] <piratemurray> godbyk: yes
[21:59] <godbyk> It's also possible to write manuals for each individual derivative at some point in the future, but that's a lot of work. :)
[21:59] <c7p> godbyk: cool, the learning more chapter can host this section
[21:59] <rickfosb> were gonna need a bigger boat  :-)
[21:59] <godbyk> c7p: I think that 'Learning More' would be a good place for this info, yeah.
[21:59] <issyl0> :-)
[21:59] <godbyk> rickfosb: Definitely!
[21:59] <rickfosb> c7p, agree
[21:59] <CrustyBarnacle> who is updating notes?
[21:59] <piratemurray> shrini: i wouldn't want to see screenshots of the different *buntus but that's just my opinion
[22:00] <issyl0> c7p: Yup.
[22:00] <godbyk> Basically, any derivative manuals would warrant their own team of authors and editors.  (Though they can share our toolchain, etc.)
[22:01] <godbyk> Are there any other thoughts on this or shall we move on to the next agenda item?
[22:01] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Useful applications (and how to install them)
[22:01] <CrustyBarnacle> Next :-)
[22:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Useful applications (and how to install them)
[22:02] <godbyk> Some of the applications listed under this agenda item include Wine, Adobe Acrobat Reader, Inkscape, Chromium, Skype, and XBMC Media Center.
[22:02] <issyl0> Cool.
[22:02] <shrini> No  acrobat reader
[22:02] <issyl0> Hrm.  An interesting one...
[22:02] <godbyk> The general question is, what applications should we discuss and how much detail should we go into?
[22:02] <c7p> shrini: i agree
[22:02] <shrini> it is huge
[22:03] <debayan_> we already have evince.
[22:03] <shrini> evince is great to read a pdf file
[22:03] <CrustyBarnacle> shrini: Agreed
[22:03] <rickfosb> I like the idea of 'Doing more...' but I would think we keep it simple with links to the source documentation?
[22:03] <debayan_> Skype also is not such a must have app.
[22:03] <c7p> rickfosb: i agree
[22:03] <c7p> i don't think we need this chapter
[22:03] <debayan_> Not even Wine. People should really be using Windows if they need Wine.
[22:03] <piratemurray> debayan: i'd disagree. many people migrating to ubuntu would like to see skype
[22:04] <CrustyBarnacle> I use Chromium... but don't want to start a browser feud.
[22:04] <debayan_> piratemurray: So they jst need to google.
[22:04] <debayan_> Skype hosts deb packages on their website, with instructions.
[22:04] <piratemurray> arguably they can google everything in the manual
[22:04] <shrini> we can say a like 'skype also available for ubuntu in their site<link here> '
[22:04] <piratemurray> should we not make light of the fact that skype et al are available in linux?
[22:04] <piratemurray> shrini: yes
[22:05] <shrini> we have to say about gimp
[22:05] <debayan_> piratemurray: I dont know if we should be pointing people towards installing proprieatary stuff on Ubuntu.
[22:05] <c7p> remember that we are working on linux alternative apps table, and i think that's enough http://bit.ly/f0LTRQ
[22:05] <debayan_> proprietary *
[22:05] <shrini> what about multimedia codecs?
[22:06] <shrini> ubuntu-restricted-extras
[22:06] <debayan_> shrini: Multimedia codecs can be covered in the chapter that covers playing media, because in ubuntu all you have to do is click a few buttons.
[22:06] <shrini> debayan_: thats fine
[22:06] <godbyk> shrini: We do mention the restricted drivers and ubuntu-restricted-extras package.
[22:06] <CrustyBarnacle> We mention the Installation option of selecting "third-party software" in Installation
[22:07] <shrini> godbyk: good
[22:07] <godbyk> The ubuntu-restricted-extras package is mentioned in the troubleshooting chapter.
[22:07] <shrini> okey
[22:07] <shrini> what about XMBC?
[22:07] <godbyk> shrini: That's not mentioned.
[22:07] <shrini> is it available in repository as default?
[22:07] <CrustyBarnacle> XMBC is not desktop use, right?
[22:08] <godbyk> Though Mythbuntu and MythTV are.
[22:08] <shrini> it is not there in my 10.10 repos as default
[22:09] <shrini> we can say about cheese
[22:09] <shrini> handbrake
[22:09] <godbyk> Do you think that the Linux/Windows app equivalences table will be sufficient?  Or do we need to go into more detail?
[22:09] <shrini> gtkpod
[22:09] <godbyk> If we need to go into more detail, should that detail be in this manual or in a separate document?
[22:09] <shrini> yup
[22:09] <shrini> that table would be so fine
[22:09] <debayan_> godbyk: Table should be sufficient. The instructions for third party apps may change as well.
[22:10] <godbyk> Okay.
[22:10] <CrustyBarnacle> Table looks good...
[22:10] <issyl0> Mmhmmm.
[22:10] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Upload chapters for translation as they are completed
[22:10] <rickfosb> godbyk; does it format for latex or do we link it?
[22:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Upload chapters for translation as they are completed
[22:10] <godbyk> hannie: Did you or rickfosb add this item?
[22:11] <rickfosb> wasn't me
[22:11] <godbyk> rickfosb: Does what format for LaTeX?
[22:11] <hannie> I did
[22:11] <hannie> I wonder if this is possible
[22:11] <godbyk> hannie: Okay. If I understand correctly, you'd like us to upload chapters for translation as they're completed instead of waiting for a manual-wide writing freeze. Is that correct?
[22:11] <rickfosb> godby; last topic... does the table format easily for inclusion
[22:11] <hannie> I mean, put the manual on Lp chapter by chapter
[22:12] <godbyk> I don't think it's possible with our current toolchain.  Presently, all the chapters are mashed together before the .pot file is generated.
[22:12] <c7p> a good solution to this could be the following
[22:12] <godbyk> rickfosb: Ah, I haven't looked at the table, but LaTeX can handle tables.
[22:12] <hannie> Or chapters could be translated offline (text files?)
[22:13] <rickfosb> ok, moving on... thanks
[22:13] <issyl0> godbyk: LaTeX table syntax looks more complicated than it is.  :-)
[22:13] <piratemurray> surely the translators will check out the latest bzr LaTeX files and translate those directly? am i missing something?
[22:13] <godbyk> piratemurray: The way translations currently work is:
[22:14] <godbyk> We write and edit the .tex files until we hit the writing freeze date.
[22:14] <c7p> hannie:  the whole manual is a series of strings, hopefully the strings are with the same queue as are paragraphs -except for margin notes-, we can give a list of string numbers per chapter
[22:14] <godbyk> Then we run a script that reads all the .tex files and generates a .pot file.
[22:14] <godbyk> this .pot file gets uploaded to launchpad for the translators.
[22:14] <godbyk> The translators can work on translations via Launchpad or offline tools.
[22:14] <c7p> e.g from 504 string up to 642 string = "Working with Ubuntu" chapter
[22:15] <hannie> When the whole manual is finished, it is too late for translators to finish it before in time
[22:15] <godbyk> Periodically, I'll download the .po files (which contain the translated text) for each language and generate draft PDFs that show their progress.
[22:15] <hannie> that's why I would like to get each finished chapter as soon as possible
[22:15] <CrustyBarnacle> Possible to do an earlier freeze date for longer chapters?
[22:16] <godbyk> The problem is that if we make a change to the English .tex file and generate a new .pot file and upload that to Launchpad, it can (and often does) disrupt things that the translators have already translated.
[22:16] <rickfosb> godbyk; as we 'commit', could we 'send' the corresponding tex file?
[22:16] <rickfosb> ahh,
[22:16] <shrini> yes
[22:17] <shrini> we suffered by this for tamil translations
[22:17] <debayan_> point.
[22:17] <godbyk> rickfosb: For that to work, we'd need to have a separate .pot file per chapter.  (As it stands, there's currently just the one .pot file for the entire manual.)
[22:17] <c7p> we don't have to rush, authors and editor should have all the time they need to write the content of the manual
[22:17] <godbyk> I'm not sure if generating one .pot file per chapter is possible or not.  (I'd assume it is, but the script we're using is a bit awkward to use.)
[22:17] <piratemurray> i'm a bit confused here, why can't we diff the uploaded LaTeX files and only translate the difference? we're essentially talking about a branching problem in a version controlled system, right?
[22:17] <hannie> godbyk, that is exactly what I want, each chapter separately
[22:18] <godbyk> piratemurray: The translators aren't working with .tex files. They're working with a derivative of the .tex files (a .pot file).
[22:18] <rickfosb> seems breaking it into chapters would resolve the conflict between english and the translators
[22:18] <piratemurray> godbyk: and why can't they work on the .tex file? it is a plain text file right?
[22:18] <CrustyBarnacle> Can those who understand the process put together a summary of what this request would require? Feasible?
[22:18] <hannie> godbyk, I could ask david planella if it can be realised
[22:18] <godbyk> hannie: I'll give it a try and see if I can coerce the script to generate one .pot file per chapter.  No promises, though! :)
[22:18] <debayan_> piratemurray: .pot is the standard way for i18n. yo can use offline tools like kbabel to translate.
[22:19] <godbyk> hannie: We're currently using a script called po4a (po-for-anything), in case he's familiar with it.
[22:19] <hannie> godbyk, ok
[22:19] <debayan_> .pot files allow you to translate the strings to a wide number of languages using available interaces that understand and interpret .pot files and enale easy edition.
[22:19] <debayan_> enable*
[22:20] <piratemurray> all right so the problem here is that we *must* use .pot files to give to the translators?
[22:20] <hannie> the advantage of Launchpad is that many translators can work on the same document
[22:20] <piratemurray> i'm being dense, forgive me. i haven't used .pot files before
[22:21] <debayan_> piratemurray: that is how internationalisation works everywhere. .pot files.
[22:21] <godbyk> piratemurray: Well, we must use .pot files for the translators to be able to do their work via the Launchpad translation interface.
[22:21] <piratemurray> and at the moment the .pot is the full manual and potentially when that is realised it is too late in terms of release deadlines?
[22:22] <piratemurray> fair enough, i'm with you now. splitting them into chapter seems a sensible way forward in that case
[22:22] <rickfosb> godbyk; is the pot generated in the makefile? or elsewhere?
[22:22] <hannie> godbyk, we'll just wait and see what comes of it
[22:22] <godbyk> rickfosb: I don't think we've added that to the Makefile (though we should).  I have the magic incantation somewhere in my notes.
[22:22] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Do we use translation memory (some auto translation approved by actual translators)?
[22:23] <hannie> CrustyBarnacle, we do
[22:23] <godbyk> hannie: Yeah. I'll try running po4a against a chapter .tex file (instead of the entire manual) sometime this week and see how much it hates that.
[22:23] <rickfosb> godbyk; ok, thought it might make chapter generation possible if it is in our make
[22:23]  * c7p godbyk is project's hero replying to everyone  and doing everything !
[22:23] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Via Launchpad, that's provided automatically (if it's a perfect match of an existing translation).
[22:23] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Thanks...
[22:23] <hannie> godbyk, I would be very grateful if you give it a try
[22:24] <godbyk> hannie: Sure thing.
[22:24] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business
[22:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[22:24] <godbyk> Okay, any other business anyone would like to bring up?
[22:24] <godbyk> Questions, comments, concerns, criticisms?
[22:24] <c7p> i have
[22:24] <shrini> move the quickshot to ubuntu-manual.org site
[22:24] <shrini> document it well
[22:25] <shrini> send some acknowledge mail for the generated screenshots
[22:25] <godbyk> shrini: I'll have to see what framework they're using for the Quickshot server.
[22:25] <shrini> send email about approval/denial of screenshot
[22:25] <shrini> godbyk: okey
[22:26] <godbyk> shrini: Good ideas.  Can you file those are bugs/feature requests against Quickshot on Launchpad?
[22:26] <godbyk> That way they won't get lost in the fray and they'll come to the attention of the Quickshot developers.
[22:26] <shrini> atleast say about quick shot server details on ubuntu-manual site
[22:26] <shrini> currently no information is available there on how to get the .qsproj files
[22:26] <godbyk> Wasn't someone documenting the new Quickshot?  c7p, were you?
[22:26] <c7p> i'm working on the http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors , i will update the content of the page soon, what i need the feedback from new authors and editors
[22:27] <godbyk> shrini: Yeah, it's all a bit mysterious still.
[22:27] <shrini> :-)
[22:27] <c7p> godbyk: i'm not sure, maybe it was me :P
[22:27] <c7p> i have some guidelines
[22:27] <c7p> maybe i should upload them too website
[22:28] <piratemurray> i have a question about chapters: are we going for a complete rewrite or where possible do you want to stick to what was done in previous UM releases?
[22:28] <piratemurray> (sorry to jump in like that)
[22:28] <debayan_> piratemurray: Some chapters, like the Ubuntu desktop will need complete rewrite i think.
[22:28] <godbyk> piratemurray: No sense making more work for yourself. If the existing text is still accurate and well-written, keep it around.
[22:29] <godbyk> For things that are completely new to Natty (e.g., Unity, Shotwell, etc.), we'll need to write new text.
[22:29] <piratemurray> fair enough! sounds good
[22:29] <hannie> How about all the gaps on the Authors/Editors page?
[22:29] <godbyk> hannie: Can you be more specific?
[22:29] <hannie> Are there enough candidates?
[22:30] <hannie> I seen no names behind most of the chapters
[22:30] <godbyk> Oh, in the spreadsheet?  We do have half a dozen or so volunteers that we need to add to that spreadsheet.
[22:30] <godbyk> But we always welcome more volunteers.
[22:30] <rickfosb> hannie; I'm in contact with some and will start filling in the blanks as soon as possible
[22:30] <godbyk> Some of the chapters are rather lengthy and would benefit from a couple authors and editors to help share the workload.
[22:31] <debayan_> I would like to have a go at "The Ubuntu Desktop". I have experience with Unity.
[22:31] <rickfosb> debayan_; author?
[22:31] <godbyk> Thanks, debayan_.
[22:31] <debayan_> rickfosb: yes. Partly atleast.
[22:31] <rickfosb> I'll add you to the list
[22:31] <hannie> I have volunteered for the job of editor, but since I am not a native speaker I do not
[22:31] <debayan_> Not sure how huge the chapter will be yet.
[22:31] <hannie> know if that is ok
[22:32] <godbyk> hannie: It's absolutely okay.  The more eyes/readers, the better.
[22:32] <hannie> ok, you will read it in my email
[22:32] <shrini> Do I need to learn latrex to be an author?
[22:32] <rickfosb> hannie; got a chapter in mind?  I'll add you
[22:32] <rickfosb> ok
[22:32] <debayan_> What maling list do we join for this ?
[22:32] <godbyk> I've found that translators are good at catching common English idioms that sneak into the text.
[22:32] <rickfosb> hannie; ok
[22:33] <hannie> I put Ubuntu Desktop in my email, but there is also another candiate for taht
[22:33] <hannie> *that
[22:33] <godbyk> debayan_: The Ubuntu Manual mailing list -- it's linked to on the Ubuntu Manual Launchpad page.
[22:33] <godbyk> debayan_: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[22:33] <debayan_> ok fine. I joined that.
[22:33] <shrini> godbyk: Is latex is essential to start authoring?
[22:33] <shrini> godbyk: or shall I use OpenOffice to start writing?
[22:33] <godbyk> shrini: It's not essential.  If you write well, we can find someone else to help with the formatting.
[22:33] <shrini> awesome
[22:33] <godbyk> I would recommend writing it in plain text instead of OpenOffice, though.
[22:34] <shrini> hehe
[22:34] <shrini> I agree
[22:34] <godbyk> For the authors and editors, LaTeX is basically a markup language like HTML.
[22:34] <rickfosb> shrini; the chapter editor and I can help put the tags into the text.
[22:34] <shrini> I use asciidoc for my other documentation works
[22:34] <godbyk> So it's plain text for the most part with some extra code to handle the formatting.
[22:34] <debayan_> Its 3:10 AM here in India. I would take your leave, if all important issues have been discussed.
[22:35] <shrini> debayan_: :-) ofcourse
[22:35] <godbyk> debayan_: I think we've about finished here.  Thanks for coming (and staying up so late)!.
[22:35] <issyl0> debayan_: Goodnight!
[22:35] <c7p> debayan_: thx for coming :) good night
[22:35] <hannie> debayan_, it was nice meeting you here.
[22:35] <shrini> crossed all the sleep limits
[22:35] <CrustyBarnacle> Goodnight, and Thanks to all!
[22:35] <debayan_> godbyk: issyl0 shrini hannie no problem. Good Night.
[22:35] <shrini> same here guys.
[22:36] <shrini> me too at 3.10 am
[22:36] <godbyk> Thanks for coming, shrini.
[22:36] <CrustyBarnacle> Great to meet everyone
[22:36] <shrini> thanks for all
[22:36] <CrustyBarnacle> This team rocks!!
[22:36] <hannie> shrini, goodnight to you too
[22:36] <godbyk> Are there any other last-minute issues?
[22:36] <shrini> thanks hannie c7p godbyk CrustyBarnacle rickfosb
[22:37] <hannie> There is work to do for a lot of people ;)
[22:37] <c7p> godbyk: i don't think so
[22:37] <godbyk> All right, then.
[22:37] <godbyk> Meeting adjourned!
[22:37] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[22:37] <c7p> thank you all for coming ! good job godbyk
[22:37] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:37.
[22:37] <godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone.
[22:38] <rickfosb> Good meeting godbyk!
[22:38] <hannie> thanks everybody, see you next time
[22:38] <piratemurray> thanks everyone!
[22:39] <shrini> bye for all
[22:39] <rickfosb> c7p; i'll read the changes you sent over now
[22:39] <issyl0> Woo.
[22:39] <c7p> rickfosb ok thx :)
[22:45] <rickfosb> bye all;