[04:25] chris4585: kde is definitely worth revisiting... especially in light of unity and gnome 3 [04:30] pace_t_zulu, I'll have to download it sometime, I may install it on my laptop and play with it [04:30] I'll give kubuntu a shot possibly to see how it is... but I much prefer playing with kde on arch [04:34] chris4585: why wait on the download? you've got the bandwidth for it [04:34] pace_t_zulu, I'm multitasking [04:34] chris4585: throttle [04:39] I'm only waiting because I'm not really ready to do that right now and I know it will only take a few minutes to download it [04:40] chris4585: what makes kde better on arch? [04:41] well kdemod on arch is highly regardless as the best KDE desktop on linux or KDE done right [04:42] its just kind of universal that KDE on ubuntu is crap in comparison to every other major KDE distro [04:42] well i should check out a different distro then [04:43] I haven't checked up on chakra lately but its an arch based distro with KDE mod, last time I looked at it was alpha [04:46] chris4585: what's a stable distro that would have kde 4.6? [04:46] chris4585: debian or fedora? [04:46] opensuse [04:47] really? [04:47] opensuse is regarded as doing KDE right, KDE is the main desktop [05:36] pace_t_zulu, have you been to ubuntu.com today? [05:36] I noticed a gnome3 style banner [05:36] kind of cool [05:36] it was really out of place with the orange theme and bam a gnome3 type theme on the ubuntu website [07:35] Chakra's release notes "Remember this is alpha software, it might eat your hamster!" [07:35] lol [07:54] pace_t_zulu, I think you should give chakra a shot, so far I'm impressed and its not even installed yet [07:55] the installer has a nice option to install popular software like firefox, gimp, libre office, etc.. [07:57] chris4585: cool disclaimer, what's it do to snakes [07:58] lol I don't know [07:58] well, I'm sure I can get one if anyone else wants to find out ;-) [07:59] joke aside, Chakra Project looks intresting [08:01] cyberanger, I've known about it since it was born about 3 years ago? so far I'm impressed with how KDE runs even on the livecd [08:01] which is really odd for me, I'm not much for KDE, but it's looks I could see being used by alot of people [08:02] yeah, and I judge Live CDs the hardest, cause they seem to be what really sways people into or out of linux [08:02] the only technical thing anyone would have to know is partitioning, and it includes the KDE graphical partitioner, which is nice [08:02] if I recall right, that's just a frontend to parted [08:02] yeah looks like it [08:03] I'm not much for qt but it is rather sleek.. [08:03] which means it's really simple, supports nearly everything [08:03] gparted is the same way, frontend for parted [08:03] I think I would die without parted / gparted [08:03] gparted <3 [08:03] shoot, dd may have earned it's nickname, 'disk destroyer' brb [08:04] that doesn't sound good.. :/ [08:05] false alarm, but the cd drive might be going quicker than expected (which is fine, that's accounted for, upgrade month) [08:07] using it and netcat to migrate a machine off a laptop and into virtualbox [08:07] ah cool [08:07] never attempted that one before [08:07] then probally scrapping bits [08:08] it's great, virtualbox includes a utility called convertfromraw which really works [08:09] you have to get the whole hdd over for that, one of a few ways [08:09] dd over the network (with ssh or netcat) use gparted to copy it to an external drive [08:09] or stick the drive in an external enclosure [08:10] first two need a live disc for that [08:10] and I'm short on enclosures and drives, so dd & netcat was best [08:11] this method puts a raw img file on my desktop, which virtualbox will convert into a vdi, then I just gotta create a virtual machine to use it [08:12] windows is more of a headache than linux (not tried mac or heard of anyone who did, but I bet it could be done along the lines of a hackintosh) [08:12] linux's kernal just sorta knows how to adapt [08:13] chris4585: this will be the first time I've done this on linux myself (used it with windows twice, to get somebody more involved in linux) [08:15] I will have to remember that [08:15] yeah thats one thing thats crazy about linux [08:15] I've copied the file structure of a livecd onto a formatted partition once then installed grub manually and was able to get a working system that way [08:16] I'm sure there's other ways too, anyhow this keeps my install while still letting me blank that drive and ship it to a friend in a jam [08:16] that works, another flexable trick of linux [08:16] try doing that with an XP disc [08:16] ;-) [08:16] I actually got that done using slitaz [08:16] lol that would be wasted time [08:17] did you hear windows 8 will run on flash drives? 16gb and up [08:17] really, I just thought it would crawl to a BSoD [08:18] well its a feature apparently.. [08:18] yeah, I've heard that's one of their plans, but I'm not sure it'll work [08:18] unless they're ditching the NT kernel too [08:18] in which case it'll sorta be like Vista again [08:19] driver issues, dragged heels to support it [08:20] oh thats a surprise, KDE already has snapping windows? [08:21] yeah, they've had that awhile now [08:21] in knoppix at least [08:22] I feel behind [08:22] not saying that KDE is copying windows 100% but I don't think a clueless user would notice a thing.. [08:22] its on par if not superior [08:22] well obviously I think its superior [08:22] well, I think they may have had it before windows [08:23] I don't recall it when suffering through vista in college (thank grub for tri boots) [08:24] when I think it was in knoppix [08:25] actually, it may have been in windows 7, beta at the time (It was better than vista, classware needed windows) but between stable releases, predated windows [08:25] it's gotten much harder to remember [08:26] that is a nice feature though [08:27] lol, it's funny, I've gone to excessive GUI features to CLI fanboy [08:29] but that sorta makes sense, cause I know on anyone's system, hit ctrl+alt+f1 and login, I can do what I normally do, perfectly harmless and yet freak them out at the same time [08:30] or some quip dos is dead, and I quip back, so is your graphics card, logout and pull xorg back up [08:31] chris4585: ever notice that, ubuntu gets popular, people head to debian, gui's get more complex, people head towards terminal apps [08:31] fighting trends [08:34] yeah [08:35] I seem to be in that group to some extent, but on the other hand I got into linux more for it's server role anyhow [08:35] the desktop was just the beginning, less computers so I had one perform both roles [08:36] and it did alot of server work [08:37] so idk, live discs were a stopgap when I couldn't install, but when I had a rig, better as a server really [08:37] and I aimed to learn quick [08:37] look at linux now [08:37] it excells at everything really [08:38] except being noticed by avg. joe [08:42] and we're making progress on that even [08:42] chris4585: your home was recovered, yes? [08:43] cyberanger, yes, ubiquity managed to somehow manage that, which I was hoping it would do [08:44] and your still using encrypted home? [08:44] I believe so [08:44] ls /home [08:44] I've been working on organizing my files and I'm going to back them up [08:45] (I ask becuase now might be a good time to grab info in case of a repeat performance, backing up would be good too ;-)) [08:45] I have a .ecryptfs dir and buildd dir [08:45] I'm slowly getting there.. [08:46] yeah its all still encrypted, but everything is back to normal [08:46] shoot, speaking of which I think I nuked data on my server, went overboard on cleaning it out [08:46] I'd just like to know why anything at all was encrypted to begin with [08:47] I did backup at least, before that spring cleaning of sorts [08:47] so I'm not screwed [08:47] chris4585: did you click fast at install [08:48] fde must be done from an alternate or netinst image, but $HOME can be done from any image now [08:48] I don't think so [08:49] who knows I might have tried the encryption option back when 10.10 first came out and totally forgot about it.. [08:49] * chris4585 shrug [08:49] (I intentionally do FDE without an addional encrypted $HOME, since I never let anyone that close to my laptop to muck my $HOME) [08:50] chris4585: I bet that's what you did, click yes vs no at install, and since it didn't metion it anywhere sense (till things go wrong) you would not have known [08:50] probably [08:51] I just wish it would sort of like informed me of whatever my passphrase(s) were.. [08:51] are* [08:52] it's literally one page, yes or no, I wish they'd improve that, encryption is security, but screwups happen, they need to do more [08:52] it never did, since as long as it didn't screw up, it was tied to your login [08:52] do one, the other happens [08:52] ah [08:52] by default that is [08:53] you can seperate the two more, but the automated tool is flawed, it expects a perfect world [08:54] and in a perfect world, encryption is pointless, privacy respected, no need to ensure that [08:54] well here is the funny thing, I tried a backup tool before any of this happened and just now noticed ~/.backup [08:54] what little help it is when its encrypted as well.. [08:54] this is an imprefect world sh*t happens [08:55] I may setup a computer for the specific task of keeping up with the files on this computer lol [08:55] haha, lol [08:55] perhaps just a vbox setup [08:55] like I'm doing now [08:58] rsync is doable [08:59] does rsync do over network? [08:59] which reminds me, I need to help x with that [08:59] yes, that's what I use with my server and it's backup here [08:59] I'd probably just do some bash script with scp or something [09:00] why scp over rsync [09:00] for one I know the syntax and I'm simple [09:00] my server is fairly static, rsync is fairly simple if you know scp, main thing that changes on my server are iso's and logs [09:01] rsync only grabs the difference, not the whole file [09:01] ah cool [09:01] I might look that up [09:01] otherwise I'd hammer my server cap on the iso's [09:02] 11.04 beta1 renamed to beta2, then an rsync, then repeat for a final [09:03] I was shocked when I donwloaded beta2 at 1.2mbps (torrent) [09:04] that's the trick I did for 10.10, jigdo it on the server (higher speed, in london, grabbed from the offical server every mirror uses all the jigdo and template files, then hit all the mirrors till the images were done, created a timestamp file to look for later [09:04] then rename my iso's here to match, from rc to final, and did an rsync [09:05] I had the iso's quicker than alot of torrents and mirrors, and seeded them on both connections for a day [09:05] all automated with bash [09:05] thats cool [09:05] I got it downloaded in about ~15mins [09:06] it took about that for me on the final [09:06] which all servers are hammered more than a beta [09:07] and add to the fire, some use firefox, download stops, they redownload, instead of zsync, jigdo, a torrent, or even wget -c [09:07] further hammering the server [09:07] I've had that happen, thats when I make sure I do wget instead [09:07] at least with wget you can resume [09:08] and so few use repo mirrors, which have all the packages before the actual release, all you need is the jigdo and template files to make the iso [09:08] they'll hammer archive.ubuntu.com's 5 (I think 5, around there at least) servers, when I can grab from any mirror, 2/3rds are neglected) [09:09] nothing like being 600mbs into the download to have it stop and not being able to recover [09:09] yeah [09:12] it's nice to have options [09:12] there really isn't alot for Windows [09:13] I did find wget worked for my Win7 Images, which cost 30 bucks and never really got used (I thought they'd be helpful for work, but never got to find out) [09:14] I thought there was a wget for windows for free? [09:15] yeah, there was something along those lines [09:15] or do you mean never got to use the win7? [09:15] I meant never really needed Win7 [09:15] ah [09:16] I thought the Pro version would be handy for work (Domain Controllers) [09:16] used wget on ubuntu to download them [09:16] had work and class in the middle, killed wget and continued [09:16] had an md5sum, or equalvent [09:17] kinda found that funny actually, it was setup more for linux than windows downloading [09:18] heh [09:18] I mean, out of the box, wget -c and md5sum for a windows image [09:18] rare [09:18] as rare as downloading a purchased image at that time [09:20] (Microsoft EDU discount for online purchase, no box, 100% legit with .edu email address and 30 bucks, at first needed an .exe, waited for the .iso and did that) [09:22] I love the verbose messages on arch in general [09:23] Starting full system upgrade... there is nothing to do - Finished [09:23] sweet [09:23] no bs with that ^ lol [09:23] * cyberanger 3>'s Linux [09:27] :o the search and launch desktop view on KDE is rather nice.. [09:30] welp I'm tired, g'night cyberanger [09:35] Chat later then [09:35] * cyberanger needs to get some sleep too, but that'll have to wait a little be [09:35] bit* [17:12] chris4585: how was your kde expirement [17:12] ? [17:38] chris4585: taking arch linux for a spin... been a while [17:57] pace_t_zulu: i think you will love arch! [17:58] wrst, it was rather beautiful [17:58] pace_t_zulu, thats cool, yeah I agree, arch is lovely [17:59] chris4585: did it work? i've always thought kde is attractive :) [17:59] wrst, I was really impressed last night, I don't even know if I have the proprietary drivers active and it was just beautiful [18:00] my problem has always been things like dolphin (which i think stinks as a file browser) just little things that gnome always does well for me [18:01] I agree with the dolphin comment, I always liked konqueror [18:02] nautilus just does such a good job for me i hate to switch [18:03] chris4585, wrst any recommendations on display manager and desktop environment for arch? [18:03] plus i think gnome3/shell has kde nicely beat [18:03] pace_t_zulu: i'm loving gnome 3 i think its certainly worth a look at [18:04] kde in arch is also excellent [18:04] i also have fluxbox up and running [18:04] and lxde is kinda fun to play with [18:05] i was taking e17 for a spin... [18:05] figured i'd try something different [18:05] you can't go wrong with anything on arch... [18:05] i've seen some beautiful setups with it and some people i know using arch love rat poison [18:06] but pace_t_zulu what i like with arch you seem them all as intended [18:06] but that also makes you appreciate what ubuntu has done with gnome 2 also [18:07] wrst: yea... seems like arch is better for the hacker who wants complete control over the system [18:07] and ubuntu is more clearly defined and refined experience [18:07] yes but it isn't that terrible to set up as long as you follow the wikis as I'm sure you are seeing [18:07] yeah [18:08] its not all that hard and plus its all a beautiful process in my opinion.. [18:09] chris4585: its helped me to understand a lot more about how things work now [18:09] chris4585: is there a desktop environment you'd recommend (not gnome or kde) [18:09] pace_t_zulu, LXDE is another beautiful alternative [18:10] chris4585 would you recommend lxde ahead of elightenment (e17) [18:10] chris4585: i'm looking for super lightweight [18:11] hrm well both are great options, personally I like LXDE over e17 [18:11] pace_t_zulu: i think lxde is kinda like that kde and gnome had an ugly child :) but its very "complete" and light i think [18:11] sound like lxde where i should play around then [18:13] it is a complete desktop though [18:15] I feel a bit out of touch, I had to wiki arch gnome 3 [18:17] what display manager would y'all recommend for lxde? [18:17] right now i have slim [18:17] slim is actually what it used in the past but I believe LXDE uses something more similar to gdm but lighter.. [18:17] let me find it [18:18] http://blog.lxde.org/?p=531 [18:18] lxdm [18:19] wrst, for nvidia is it just pacman -S nvidia ? [18:19] I should probably wiki that too [18:22] chris4585 wrst cyberanger - what shell do y'all prefer? [18:23] simple ol bash, but I never played with anything else before either.. [18:25] chris4585 i recently discovered zsh [18:25] I've heard good things about other shells though, I don't do enough to warrant a change [18:26] '# sudo pacman -S lxdm' ... "error: 'lxdm': could not find or read package" [18:26] chris4585: zsh's tab completion is more robust than bash [18:28] wrst, did you use yaourt or something similar? [18:28] chris4585: i would follow the wiki depends on proprietary or open source [18:29] yes chris4585 I use yaourt its wonderful [18:29] and do an occasional yaourt -Syu --aur to update everything from the aur [18:30] then pace_t_zulu try this guide https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt [18:30] wouldn't the upside of lxde be avoidance of gnome bloat??? ... why do this instructions point the user to install so many gnome packages [18:30] ? [18:30] is yaourt better than pacman? [18:30] pace_t_zulu, uh? lxdm doesn't depend on gnome is what I read [18:31] yaourt is a frontend to access aur, its rather nice really [18:31] chris4585: for latest proprietar its pacman -S nvidia nvidia-utils [18:32] chris4585: not talking about lxdm specifically... the wiki page suggests a lot of gnome packages [18:33] yes, but lxde itself is just openbox + lxpanel + gtk (obviously) and pcmanfm [18:33] I have to run to the store bbiab [18:35] chris4585 thanks for the lxde architecture info [18:35] how do you install yaourt ? [18:35] i'm following instructions from the wiki ... but it says i need pacman >= 3.5 [18:36] pace_t_zulu: dash [18:36] pace_t_zulu: have you upgraded your system since instally everything? [18:36] i've got 3.4 [18:36] wrst: i think so.... but perhaps not [18:37] just ran "sudo pacman -Syu" [18:37] try doing a full upgrade pace_t_zulu 'pacman -Syu' and be srue to update pacman when/if the option is given [18:37] nothing to upgrade [18:37] chris4585: ldxe does depend on some gtk libs I think [18:37] hmm i had that same issue and can't remember what i did, let me do some checking :) [18:38] if I recall [18:38] i've got arch linux 2010.05 x86_64 ... is there a fresher base? [18:39] pace_t_zulu: I'm wondering if you might have a mirror a little behind [18:39] pace_t_zulu: shouldn't matter after you update [18:39] when i install arch i always do the net install [18:39] wrst: what mirror do you use... i've got vt [18:39] let me check pace_t_zulu [18:39] gatech didn't resolve [18:39] * wrst loves ssh in times like these [18:39] * pace_t_zulu loves ssh at all times [18:40] * cyberanger typed this over ssh [18:41] pace_t_zulu: what's the full uri? [18:42] http://www.gtlib.gatech.edu/pub/ubuntu/ [18:42] pace_t_zulu: I'm using Server = http://lug.mtu.edu/archlinux/ftpfull/$repo/os/i686 [18:42] I mean [18:42] http://www.gtlib.gatech.edu/pub/archlinux/ (force of habit) [18:43] i'll try both [18:43] gatech first - because it should be faster [18:43] pace_t_zulu: is that what you had fail? [18:43] yes should be pace_t_zulu but with your speed.... :P [18:43] the failure is that pacman is 3.4 [18:43] mirror.anl.gov [18:44] pace_t_zulu: you might want to comment out the old one just to be sure [18:44] 13:39:37 pace_t_zulu | gatech didn't resolve [18:44] dns error? [18:44] cyberanger: didn't bother figuring it out... just switched mirrors... [18:45] cyberanger: does gatech mirror work for you right now [18:45] ? [18:46] yeah, but I can't say pacman agrees [18:46] centos with it is working [18:48] cyberanger: this is specific to pacman i reckon.... mtu and vt both work [18:48] wrst: mtu does have pacman 3.5 [18:48] ok cool if you update that should take care of your problems [18:49] sometimes mirrors go down or get long in the tooth pace_t_zulu one of the failings of arch [18:49] now i get a "error: local database version is too old" [18:49] well, two machines I can access here (well, linux rigs) are centos and ubuntu, their fine with that mirror, and the anl mirror [18:49] wrst: maybe i should get more involved with the computer science department at vanderbilt and see if we can setup mirrors here... arch... ubuntu... etc [18:49] maybe debian [18:50] don't have arch here at work [18:50] that would be neat pace_t_zulu [18:50] pace_t_zulu: that would be a good idea, esp with utk kinda dropping out of that [18:50] pace try a pacman -Syy to get everything in sync [18:50] well, underequipped for that [18:50] for the sake of ubuntu-us-tn ... it'd be good to be more involved here on campus [18:51] wrst: ty for the suggestion [18:51] that may or may not work, pace_t_zulu, pacman -Syu should do it but sometimes the Syy helps [18:51] perhaps i could draw out some more middle tn ubuntu users [18:52] pace_t_zulu: I've been working on that myself, if they don't want to themselves, but allow us rackspace and bandwidth, presto [18:52] "pacman-db-upgrade" fixed that error [18:52] ahh cool pace_t_zulu :) [18:52] I haven't really been able to bring the mirror online due to that reason, bandwidth [18:53] cyberanger: i know some people around campus... and it'd be good to meet more folks... i know there is a neurodebian repo hosted here on campus [18:53] internal domain or external [18:53] I know they have a two internal tlds [18:54] one for the hospital, one for the college [18:54] cyberanger, wrst and chris4585 can attest to the bandwidth available at vandy [18:54] yes i'm terribly jealous! [18:54] cyberanger dunno if you saw my speedtest results last week [18:55] no I didn't, but I can attest to it too, hospital end [18:55] and the university end was the same [18:56] cyberanger plus the argument could be made that a local mirror could be a positive thing for bandwidth (if users on campus utilize the local mirror) [18:56] cyberanger, furthermore - i reckon its positive advertising for the computer science department [18:57] yeah, and I've got some of the setup already [18:57] linux users have heightened awareness of certain institutions on that participate in mirroring linux distros [18:58] I could probally get access to the GA Tech Mirrors, rsync them to drives and take them to nashville to kickstart things [18:58] cyberanger: plus... if i could swing an ubuntu mirror - that would could certainly be a major item on our loco approval application [18:58] yeah, if it's loco backed [18:59] cyberanger: i reck vandy could rsync with gatech during off ours faster than you could drive the data back and forth.... but worth a look [18:59] that's why I've been trying to get one going here [18:59] oh, no you couldn't [18:59] cyberanger: perhaps not [19:00] unless GA Tech shares a edu network they don't throttle [19:00] it's terabytes of data [19:00] cyberanger: internet2 connection [19:01] but terabytes might be pushing it [19:01] cyberanger: how many terabytes are we talking? [19:02] true, i2 is at both sites [19:02] well, on the hdd or transfered over the network? [19:03] hdd for ubuntu is over 500GB, debian is around there too [19:04] pace_t_zulu: http://mirror.anl.gov/ (look at the bottom "About the Hardware") [19:05] Lemme see here, I once had info on per-project amounts [19:05] rsync from upstream is minimal, grabs only the changes [19:06] it's the client utilization that really drives things [19:06] and some mirrors are under utilized [19:07] cyberanger: client utilization? you mean users querying the mirror? [19:08] wrst: how do you pm with quassel? a simple "/msg user my message" doesn't open a pm chat [19:09] querying, downloading, is more like it [19:09] 700mb iso, 700mb of updates [19:09] cyberanger: yea... bandwidth utitlizaton [19:09] repeat for arch [19:09] cyberanger: perhaps a mirror could initially be launched for local traffic... [19:09] yeah, client to the mirror, minor for mirror to mirror [19:10] yeah, kept in sync with anl [19:10] over i2 [19:10] cyberanger: and later global access could be evaluated [19:11] (Argonne National Lab is sorta the de facto US server, majority of the US mirrors are on the i2 network) [19:11] I wonder if i2 is more costly than regular access [19:13] if i2 is just flat rate, between that and regulated access (internal or otherwise restricted) idk why they're not already doing it [19:16] pace_t_zulu: just double click on the user in teh nick list [19:16] cyberanger: why who isn't already doing what? [19:16] cyberanger: vanderbilt doing mirrors? [19:17] well, large scale, yes [19:17] not just one distro, but something on the scale of RIT, MIT GA Tech [19:19] cyberanger: that's what i'm thinking too [19:19] cyberanger: i see it as positive advertising for computer science at vandy [19:19] pace_t_zulu: how are you liking quassel? [19:20] RIT's is awesome, uncapped for i2 and RIT (shame I missed that chance last year, I know I have access there, if I ask the RC dept nicely) [19:20] they cap for 'i1' though [19:21] for their two i1 providers 150 mbit/s. [19:22] campus and i2 was 10GigE, nic blew up (and they aren't cheap, 500 a pop) but 1GigE is still sweet [19:22] pace_t_zulu: what speedtest server did you use? [19:24] pace_t_zulu: ah, here's what I was looking for, from RIT http://mirror.rit.edu/dirsizes.txt [19:24] I think ANL had one too, gonna take a 2nd look [19:27] wrst: i like that it gives me a persistent connection like irssi... but i can enjoy gui basics (like clickable links) [19:27] wrst: but the nickname tab completion issue is very annoying [19:28] wrst: i suggested a quassel client written in cocoa over at #quassel ... they're a little apprehensive supporting a project that requires a platform specific developer [19:29] yeah i doubt they will go for that as they are from my understanding all big qt guys, did they have any solution to your tab issue? [19:33] pace_t_zulu: getting vanderbuilt to mirror would be ideal [19:35] cyberanger: i'm talking to my local admin about it [19:38] wrst cyberanger chris4585 ... y'all notice that LXTerminal launches with SHLVL=2 ? [19:39] no, I hadn't [19:39] but been awhile [19:40] weird [19:40] perhaps because i'm launching lxde from cli login [19:45] weird... when i launch lxde from DAEMONS in /etc/rc.conf it is SHLVL=2 [19:45] correction SHLVL=3 .... [19:47] last few times I ran LXDE was on Debian [19:51] * wrst is wondering what SHLVL=3 is [19:55] cyberanger: recommendations on a desktop manager and desktop environment to experiment with on arch? [19:55] cyberanger: lightweight is the aim [19:55] pace_t_zulu, did you get yaourt installed? [19:55] wrst: SHLVL is the shell level [19:55]