[03:31] <ailo_> holstein, Wow. ScottL is not online. His computer must be broken. Just sent a letter to puredyne.
[03:34] <holstein> ailo_: yeah?
[03:34] <holstein> and email?
[03:34] <holstein> thats cool
[03:34] <ailo_> Yeah, I sent an email, :)
[03:35] <holstein> ailo_: thanks
[03:35] <ailo_> There's a few things they've already had some experience on
[03:35] <holstein> i think thats a great idea
[03:35] <holstein> to reach out to them
[03:35] <holstein> or him/her
[03:35] <holstein> who knows what that team is
[03:35] <holstein> that live CD is bumpin
[03:35] <holstein> really useable
[03:35] <holstein> like dynebolic was
[03:36] <ailo_> I think they are a few people. Only know one, a little, named Claude
[03:36] <ailo_> Claude is a puredata guy
[03:36] <ailo_> But, they have a live image, they have experience with XFCE
[03:36] <holstein> yeah, its a good fit
[03:36] <ailo_> So, hopefully we can collaborate on those two things
[03:37] <holstein> i wish more folks would try puredyne
[03:37] <holstein> to see what xfce+ubuntustudio could be like
[03:37] <ailo_> It's really one of the best distros out there, I think
[03:37] <holstein> when we get emails like that one about it being based on hardy
[03:37] <holstein> its odd
[03:37] <holstein> it is a long thread though
[03:38] <ailo_> Well, there was a guy recommending rocket dock too
[03:38] <holstein> yeah
[03:38] <holstein> challenging to keep up with all the facts
[03:38] <holstein> i just dont want to see 'i think its based on hardy'
[03:38] <holstein> look it up
[03:38] <holstein> and 'ive heard xfce is as slow as gnome'
[03:38] <holstein> try it
[03:39] <holstein> we need the kind of fact finding that you are good at ailo_ :)
[03:39] <ailo_> Well, I try to, but it's always a slippery slope, trying to get the facts straight sometimes
[03:40] <ailo_> Hey ScottL 
[03:40]  * holstein high-fives ScottL 
[03:40] <ailo_> ScottL: I was just telling holstein that I sent an email to the puredyne list
[03:41] <ailo_> Telling them about Ubuntu Studio's plans for 11.10
[03:41] <holstein> i think it would be great to get those guys to defect here :)
[03:41] <holstein> one or more of those core devs
[03:41] <ailo_> Asking if there is someone who would like to help out in those areas that these two distros would share, as using XFCE and making a live image
[03:42] <ailo_> I'm sure puredyne will still be building a lot of their own packages, but they would need to do less work, if most was already done in Ubuntu Studio
[03:43] <holstein> ailo_: are they active?
[03:43] <holstein> i thought they were kinda dormant
[03:43] <ailo_> holstein, On and Off. They were planning a release for Maverick, but I don't know why it never happened
[03:47] <ScottL> that's good news
[03:48]  * ScottL has been having internet conncetion problems
[03:48] <holstein> ScottL: isp?
[03:48] <holstein> your usually up for months
[03:52] <ailo_> I wasn't having a lot of luck asking for help at #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-devel on the theming issue
[03:53] <ailo_> I only quickly started googling. Could take some effort to find out some answers on your own, I felt
[03:54] <ailo_> Or, Yacying, which I'm doing now :P
[03:55] <holstein> why would i want to yacy?
[03:56] <holstein> im still not clear on why i need to run that locally
[03:56] <holstein> i had it running on the netbook
[03:56] <holstein> but i think i should run it on my server
[03:56] <holstein> then, i got nervous about it
[03:56] <ailo_> holstein, It's a peer to peer system, totally. Yeah, it would be better running it on a server.
[03:56] <ailo_> But, it won't send anything, if you have a firewall set up
[03:57] <holstein> i dont really care if it sends something that it should be sending
[03:57] <holstein> i got nervous about security
[03:57] <holstein> without reading about it
[03:57] <holstein> and then bandwidth
[03:58] <ailo_> Right. Don't think there will be any problems, as long as you aren't opening a port for it
[03:58] <ailo_> 8090, or what it was
[03:58] <holstein> i thought maybe it did it for me
[03:58] <holstein> opened the port
[03:58] <ailo_> The software I suppose is building the web content, while the actual search results come from the peer to peer network
[03:58] <ScottL> holstein, i don't know...connection has been off and on
[03:59] <ScottL> now i'm trying to upload a nifty webpage i made to explain my dock concept and my server is responding
[03:59] <holstein> ailo_: nah, it didnt
[03:59] <ScottL> my server = fossmusicproject.org
[03:59] <holstein> i looked
[04:00] <ailo_> holstein, Setting up a server my need some more work, tuning it, setting up bandwidth limitations and all that
[04:00] <ScottL> what is yacy?
[04:00] <holstein> ScottL: thats not coming up for me
[04:01] <ailo_> ScottL, It's a peer to peer search engine
[04:01] <ScottL> holstein, yeah, i'm pretty happy about the page i made and now i'm pretty sad that i can't get it up
[04:01] <ScottL> oi, that sounded really, really bad :P
[04:01] <holstein> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/fossmusicproject.org
[04:01] <holstein> :/
[04:01] <ailo_> Not loading here
[04:03] <ScottL> oh, TheMuso, i'm reminding you about updating plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio from the bzr branch
[04:03] <ScottL> we made it past beta2
[04:03] <ScottL> and thanks holstein and ailo_ for helping with testing those ISO's :)
[04:04] <ailo_> ScottL, np
[04:05] <ailo_> puredyne team is not that small, actually, at least a handfull who do a lot of contributing
[04:05] <ailo_> https://launchpad.net/puredyne/+topcontributors
[04:06] <TheMuso> ScottL: Oh right, wasn't sure if it was ready.
[04:16] <TheMuso> ScottL: Right I gathered as much.
[04:20] <TheMuso> ScottL: Taking care of it now.
[04:20]  * TheMuso checks out the branch.
[05:06] <ScottL> TheMuso, i see on #ubuntu-release it looks like you updated the packag
[05:06] <ScottL> package
[05:06] <TheMuso> Yes I did.
[05:06] <ScottL> did you need to do something additional?
[05:07] <TheMuso> I just fixed the version number.
[05:07] <ScottL> hmmm, i thought i updated that from the bzr branch :/
[05:07] <TheMuso> no problem anyway.
[05:11] <ScottL> i'm sorry TheMuso, i really should be doing better at this
[05:12] <TheMuso> Thats ok.
[05:30] <Kokito> hello folks
[06:37] <Kokito> hello ailo 
[06:38] <ailo> Hi Kokito 
[07:05] <Kokito> what's new ailo ?
[07:09] <ailo> Kokito, Not much. Spending too much time indoors as usual
[07:13] <Kokito> unfortunately, I can relate to that :)
[07:13] <Kokito> although yesterday I went to San Francisco and spend most of the day there
[07:13] <Kokito> they had the Cherry Blossom Festival in Japan Town
[07:14] <Kokito> I later had dinner with some friends
[07:15] <ailo> Whenever I think about cherry trees and Japan I come to think about a Haiku poem a Kamikaze pilot wrote: We will fall like the Cherry flowers at spring
[07:16] <ailo> Or something like that
[07:20] <Kokito> very poetic :)
[07:21] <Kokito> I suppose that was their way of coping with the fact that they were going to die
[07:35] <ailo> T0rCh_raony, Wazzup?
[07:43] <Kokito> good night folks!
[14:05] <scott-work> ailo: would you mind hosting a few files for me for a short time?
[14:05] <scott-work> my server is down and i would really like to test the dock webpage i made
[14:05] <scott-work> plus i would like for people to be able to understand my idea for the dock :D
[14:37] <scott-work> also, i did do some testing of different docks this weekend, i haven't really looked at the results in a scientific manner yet
[14:38] <scott-work> but i can say that wbar just simply didn't work for me and that awn has the most (by an order of magnitude or two) dependecies of the four i tested
[14:38] <scott-work> i tested wbar, cairo, docky, and awn
[14:39] <scott-work> something i still need to explore is the xfce dock that comes already established with a default natty xubuntu install
[14:39] <scott-work> unfortunately i deleted that dock and can't get it back currently :( 
[14:39] <scott-work> so i'll reinstall another xubuntu install tonight just to play with the xfce dock
[15:05] <scott-work> after filing a ticket it looks like the raid array at my vps hosting was corrupted and although the hard drives were not physically damaged, the data was destroyed
[15:06] <scott-work> lucky i have some backup somehwere but it looks like they will just provide me with a new install
[17:06] <ailo_> scott-work, Is there really a XFCE dock? Isn't that just a large panel?
[17:07] <ailo_> scott-work, What do you need from the server?
[17:07] <ailo_> scott-work, Do you need a specific program?
[17:07] <scott-work> ailo_: when i was erasing it i thought it said "xfce dock" for the name, whether this was purely nomenclature or an actual category of panel i'm not sure, but i'll find out later
[17:08] <scott-work> ailo_: i just wanted someone to host six or seven files in their own directory
[17:08] <scott-work> one is the index.html file and the rest are the images
[17:09] <scott-work> i was just going to make a /dock directory on my server and dump the files into it
[17:09] <ailo_> scott-work, Ok. You can email them to me and I'll put them up.
[17:10] <scott-work> done
[17:13] <scott-work> ailo_: any word back from the puredyne folks?
[17:15] <ailo_> scott-work, No replies to the post I did. I recommended for those who were interested to joing the Ubuntu Studio devel mail list and/or check out this channel.
[17:17] <scott-work> lots and lots of exciting changes coming for ocelot...as an after thought i wish it had a cooler name worthy of so many changes, like mustang or falcon or ass-kick or something besides some marcupial
[17:17] <scott-work> oh wait, i'm not sure an ocelot is really a marcupial, i don't think they keep their offspring in a pouch
[17:17] <ailo_> scott-work, Yeah? What kind of changes aside from UI?
[17:18] <scott-work> xfce, -controls, documentation, website
[17:18] <ailo_> Oneiric I think means dream
[17:18] <ailo_> scott-work, Right, the changes for US
[17:19] <ailo_> ocelto seems like some kind of cheetah type of cat animal
[17:19] <ailo_> ocelot*
[17:19] <ailo_> Dwarf leopard
[17:20] <scott-work> at least mac has some cool names (dwarf leopard reminded me of snow leapord and then the upcoming lion)
[17:21] <ailo_> I like the Ubuntu names. But, I always have to look them up
[17:21] <scott-work> i don't mean to be dismissive or derisive of ubuntu/canonical...but i feel less connected with the unity move then i have ever have and i don't expect it to improve
[17:21] <scott-work> maverick was cool, lucid was cool, natty's okay now
[17:22] <scott-work> hardy was awesome, but that's probably because that's when i got into ubuntu studio i think
[17:22] <ailo_> Natty seems to be a little buggy UI-wise, though
[17:22] <scott-work> i never messed with intrepid or jaunty much, because i stayed with hardy for so long
[17:22] <scott-work> oh, i was talking about name-wise :P
[17:23] <ailo_> Ah, ok
[17:24] <ailo_> I was not liking Unity before, but recently, I think it's ok.
[17:25] <ailo_> Like Gnome3, it needs to be a little more tweak-able
[17:26] <ailo_> It's not the exact look that makes the difference at all to me, but the functionality
[17:26] <scott-work> ailo_: i think unity will be a very good desktop for the majority of desktop users
[17:27] <scott-work> gnome3 as well, but i think not for the pedestrian non-geeky person though
[17:27] <scott-work> just my opinion
[17:27] <ailo_> I think the other way around. It's an UI that if it's changed a little, will work well on all kinds of platforms, not only a PC
[17:28] <ailo_> Something I see from Mac users is that they don't like to change any settings. And they use the search function a lot
[17:29] <ailo_> As simple as it can get
[17:29] <ailo_> On Unity, having the menu in the panel makes sense now
[17:30] <ailo_> It's not strictly a Mac thing anymore
[17:31] <ailo_> Don't see how it's geeky. More towards main stream, really
[17:32] <ailo_> I'm confident that people are just not used to it yet, and most of their opinions are based on that
[17:32] <ailo_> Or, that they hate any kind of influence from Mac, or whatever
[19:03] <ailo_> scott-work, http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
[19:04] <scott-work> ailo_: awesome! thanks, my server still isn't back and i'm not sure when it will be
[19:04] <scott-work> ailo_: does this page help make clear my idea on the dock?
[19:06] <ailo_> scott-work, Well, I guess so. Though, the awn part still feels like it's a matter of taste
[19:06] <scott-work> don't worry about awn vs cairo vs docky...the entire point of this page is to convey the concept
[19:07] <ailo_> scott-work, And, considering you are not that into music production, working out those work flows should be done with people who are using Linux daily for music production. I think those are the people who would know exactly what they need
[19:07] <scott-work> ailo_: i will say that if you compare the dependencies that are required, awn is the heavyiest dock
[19:08] <ailo_> scott-work, I haven't been using sessions managers like ladish yet myself
[19:09] <ailo_> scott-work, But, I do think it's a great idea
[19:09] <ailo_> scott-work, Don't know what would be the best way to implement it
[19:09] <ailo_> Don't know what it would mean adding it to awn
[19:10] <ailo_> I mean, adding your idea to awn
[19:10] <ailo_> And I think your concept is a great idea
[19:11] <ailo_> So far, it seems to me that the idea is about having a set of launchers saved as a profile
[19:11] <scott-work> ailo_: true, in the sense that it is a quick way to choose which "profile" you want
[19:12] <scott-work> but i also think this would be a great help for new users
[19:13] <ailo_> It is a good way to organize things. And you can have the same starter in many profiles
[19:13] <ailo_> But, you could do this from the menu as well (don't know about XFCE menu)
[19:14] <ailo_> I prefer the idea of tags for identifying an application. So, one application can have many tags, and fit into many categories
[19:15] <ailo_> The traditional menu is not that well fit for that
[19:15] <scott-work> ailo_: the same concept applies with the work flow dock, the same launcher can be in several workflows...like qjackctl
[19:15] <ailo_> The Unity menu system would be perfect for this
[19:16] <scott-work> ailo_: but i think this dock offers something that gnome-panels or unity do not...a visual cue for the workflow
[19:16] <scott-work> one of the most difficult thing for new users to understand (i believe) is to understand which appilcation needs to be run at what time
[19:16] <ailo_> scott-work, Yes. I do think your idea is more about tagging applications, rather than giving them only one category
[19:16] <scott-work> or the fact they even *need* to run something
[19:17] <ailo_> scott-work, Don't think you can do that with awn anyway, unless you create scripts for all the launchers that makes sure prerquisites are met before launching the application
[19:17] <ailo_> scott-work, Which btw, would not be hard to do, now that I think of it
[19:18] <ailo_> scott-work, At the very least we could use zenity to give a popup if jack isn't running
[19:19] <ailo_> scott-work, Your workflows would only serve as examples. But, for new users, I agree, it is a good idea
[19:19] <scott-work> ailo_:  i didn't mean a notification, just that the launcher is there to give a visual clue that qjackctl shoudl be started first to launch jack before others
[19:20] <scott-work> ailo_: as far as workflows being examples...we modified the package selection based on the workflows we defined
[19:21] <scott-work> the default "starter" workflows that would be in the dock after installation would reflect these
[19:22] <ailo_> scott-work, I would rather just educate the user on what they should be doing. And it would be nice if the desktop was giving notifications when the user is doing something that isn't going to work, and why
[19:22] <scott-work> if a user doesn't like ardour and wants traverso, they are free to install it and change the "record audio" launcher workflow
[19:22] <scott-work> or even create a new workflow
[19:23] <ailo_> scott-work, I think all users do create their own workflows as is now. By adding quick launchers for the apps they use
[19:23] <scott-work> ailo_: but this isn't just about education or giving visual clues...this is about providing a streamline interface to assist users doing tasks
[19:23] <scott-work> ailo_: right but these are probably in a panel...maybe on the side of the desktop
[19:23] <scott-work> ailo_: and i personally have twenty+ that way
[19:24] <scott-work> it would be nice to reduce the clutter when i am going to perform a very select task
[19:24] <ailo_> scott-work, If you can take away everything else, and make it into a pure multimedia panel, that would make more sense to me
[19:24] <ailo_> Or, maybe not
[19:24] <scott-work> it could be that way if people want that, but you would at least need a main menu
[19:25] <ailo_> scott-work, I think this idea could be done in the indicator area as well
[19:26] <ailo_> scott-work, But then, one would probably use a menu for the launchers
[19:27] <ailo_> I really need to get into ladish and see how that works
[19:27] <ailo_> There are a lot of options
[19:28] <scott-work> i'm not sure when ladish will be available for ubuntu
[19:29] <scott-work> hopefully for 11.10 though
[20:06] <holstein> scott-work: i have a song idea
[20:06] <holstein> that guitarman would be singing on
[20:06] <holstein> i'll talk to Gman about it :)
[20:06] <holstein> see if i can get a take to you
[20:06] <scott-work> holstein: here's a better explanation for my dock idea:  http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
[20:07] <scott-work> holstein: cool, i'd really be interested in doing some music for ocelot
[20:07] <scott-work> i picked you and guitarman original just because i know you can do stuff and get it done :)
[20:07] <scott-work> i wouldn't mind including others though
[20:07] <holstein> sure
[20:07] <holstein> scott-work: you mean music that gets included?
[20:07] <holstein> like sample music?
[20:13] <holstein> scott-work: i like what you got for the dock
[20:13] <holstein> im still voting no dock
[20:14] <holstein> but i like the idea 
[22:02] <scott-work> ailo_: are we ready to do some kernel testing this week?   :)
[22:07] <ailo_> scott-work, Sure. Whenever is suitable. I should probably do my testing tomorrow
[22:07] <ailo_> This time I would like to extend it for a while longer
[22:07] <ailo_> Maybe even a couple of hours, just to see if I get any xruns
[22:08] <ailo_> I won't be on it all the time, but I'll have some program running, and then I'll check on it from time to time, start some programs or whatever
[22:08] <ailo_> Just to use it now and then, not just let it buzz
[22:50] <scott-work> ailo_: i'm thinking of recording several tracks in ardour before testing, include several plugins on these tracks, and then test while recording new tracks...hopefully really load the system
[22:50] <scott-work> i'll probably do something more straightforward first though, just for a baseline if nothing else
[22:50] <ailo_> scott-work, I'm actually for not super-loading the system at this point
[22:51] <ailo_> scott-work, Even though, it might be interesting to see the difference between the kernels
[22:51] <scott-work> ailo_: you don't think it will demonstrate differences between -generic and -lowlatency?
[22:51] <scott-work> oh, lol, nevermind
[22:52] <ailo_> scott-work, When I tried loading CPU to maximum with -lowlatency, I didn't get a single xrun, until the CPU intesive processes were realtime
[22:52] <ailo_> scott-work, And, no xruns until you hit maximum
[22:53] <scott-work> did you try the same with -generic?
[22:53] <ailo_> scott-work, So, my conclusion is, if you load the system to maximum using plugins, you will get xruns
[22:54] <ailo_> scott-work, Don't think there will be any difference. But, to test that, we would need to do something measurable
[22:54] <ailo_> Like a real testsuite
[22:54] <scott-work> that would be nice, but i was hoping to at least derive some general tendencies from the kernels
[22:55] <ailo_> scott-work, I have tested on two systems. On one, they seem to behave the same, on the other -generic is no good at low latencies
[22:55] <scott-work> just because you can't exactly quantize something doesn't mean you dont' have any good information :)
[22:55] <ailo_> scott-work, I think it's enough just to turn jack on and a program
[22:55] <ailo_> scott-work, Already there, you get differences
[22:56] <ailo_> scott-work, And light usage, like if you were using the programs normally. Doing a bit of recording and mixing
[22:56] <ailo_> scott-work, Don't want to have a situation where plugins are misbehaving or something
[22:57] <ailo_> scott-work, Even just using Ardour without plugins already tells you a great deal
[22:57] <ailo_> scott-work, I think that's enough as a first step
[22:58] <scott-work> ailo_: right, that will be my first step, but i would like to explore if loading it up will create some differences
[22:59] <scott-work> but i'm going home now :)   i'll probably start tomorrow on kernel testing
[23:00] <ailo_> ScottL, Doesn't hurt to try different things, if you have the time
[23:01] <ailo_> I'm just concerned with how stable certain programs are. Why I choose to use either Ardour or puredata (which I know well).