[00:02] <ScottL> hi Kokito 
[00:03] <Kokito> hey ScottL 
[00:04] <ScottL> i still owe you some screenshots Kokito 
[00:04] <Kokito> no biggie ScottL. won't be touching the theme this week, as work is busy
[02:51] <ailo_> holstein, Would you have time to do some comparative testing between the kernels one of these days?
[02:51] <ailo_> holstein, l would be interested to know how firewire is affected, if affected at all
[02:51] <ailo_> holstein, Or is it a matter of processor architecture, which is the only thing I can think of making a difference on one of my machines
[03:10] <holstein> ailo_: i'll make some time
[03:10] <holstein> thats some testing i can get my mind around too
[03:10] <holstein> not too fiddly :)
[03:11] <ailo_> holstein, Yeah. Basically you only need to run ardour for a while. Preferably more than 15 min on each kernel
[03:11] <ailo_> holstein, And in the lowest possible latency without xruns
[03:11] <holstein> i can do that
[03:11] <holstein> ailo_: how many tracks?
[03:11] <holstein> i usually test with 8 at 24/96
[03:12] <holstein> if that'll go for an hour+
[03:12] <holstein> with no xruns
[03:12] <holstein> i trust the rig
[03:12] <ailo_> holstein, Doesn't matter. Just have some activity going on. Don't count xruns from starting programs. Just if there are any random ones. If there are, you try a higher latency.
[03:12] <ailo_> Once you get a latency that doesn't produce a single xrun, you make a note of that
[03:12] <holstein> maybe i can do that this thursday
[03:13] <holstein> im off in the evening
[03:13] <ailo_> holstein, Just make sure the settings are exactly the same on both tests, and only change frames/period for changing the latency
[03:14] <ailo_> holstein, That would be great. So far, me you and ScottL. 
[03:14] <ailo_> And meganerd 
[03:14] <ailo_> I'm doing my set of tests on one of the machines now
[03:28] <ailo_> ScottL, The plymoth thing seemed to work when I logged out. Seemed to be a black screen when booting into it, though.
[03:30] <ailo_> Startupmanager was a nifty program. Let me set the resolution for the boot menu. 
[03:40] <ailo_> holstein, Also, it would be great if you could compare the firewire with your builtin card, at least fairly quickly to see how much difference there is. If there is a difference it would make a big difference if you could redo the tests on the builtin as well.
[03:48] <ailo_> ScottL, I might have one parameter that may be of interest doing the tests. Opening GIMP would cause xruns using generic. I'm thinking that some graphic related stuff can xause xruns.
[03:49] <ailo_> I know that sometimes using the menu in ardour would cause xruns too.
[03:49] <ailo_> Would suggest that it's something to do with GTK. I believe GTK and GIMP are closely related?
[03:50] <ScottL> ailo_, how did you install the plymouth theme?  it wasn't updated until a few days ago
[03:50] <ailo_> ScottL, I just did an update and rebooted
[03:50] <ScottL> oh, good...that's it then :)
[03:51] <ScottL> but i have noticed that my computer boots too quickly for the plymouth theme
[03:51] <ScottL> i only get a very, very quick look at it and don't even see any animation
[03:51] <ailo_> Yeah :)
[03:51] <ScottL> but as you say, i see it pretty well when the computer shuts down/reboots
[03:51] <ailo_> I saw it spin for 1-2 secs when logging out
[03:52] <ScottL> ailo_, as far as the graphics, we might even consider inkscape then...i think it's more intensive that gimp
[03:53] <ScottL> i got my server back today...
[03:53] <ScottL> apparently the hard drive wasn't bad but the raid corrupted and copied garbage all over my data :(
[03:53] <ailo_> ScottL, It's the same thing with Inkscape
[03:54] <ScottL> ailo_, no better, no worse?
[03:54] <ailo_> ScottL, I get 1-3 xruns when loading them. The audio process is interrupted when GTK is loading something
[03:54] <ailo_> Less, actually
[03:54] <ailo_> So, when using ardour menu, the audio process can be interrupted, because it is loading the content from the menu to RAM
[03:56] <ailo_> ScottL, One way to make the CPU work is either decompressing a file, or compiling something
[03:56] <ailo_> ScottL, compiling can be done using both kernels in some cases
[03:56] <ailo_> Both cores, I mean
[03:56] <ailo_> If there are two
[03:57] <ailo_> ScottL, compressing will cause xruns as well
[03:59] <ailo_> ScottL, But, the compression needs some time. We could add these things to the test. It would be manageable using a script
[04:01] <ScottL> did you see tertl3's link?  http://funwithckpatch.blogspot.com/2011/04/ftqfixed-time-quanta-benchmark-using.html
[04:02] <ailo_> ScottL, Yeah. Don't know much about that. The results looked pretty similar
[04:02] <ailo_> ScottL, The CPU intensive process seems to only interrupt audio at lower latencies
[04:03] <ailo_> ScottL, On some systems, you might never get xruns from loading GIMP or compressing a file
[04:09] <ailo_> ScottL, Well. -lowlatency running ardour and opeing GIMP, Inkscape as well as compressing a file did not cause xruns at 1.45ms latency
[04:09] <ailo_> ScottL, But, there is already a difference using the two kernels on this system, so there might still be xruns, if I use an even lower latency with -lowlatency
[04:10] <ailo_> ScottL, From this one test I can't exclude the possibility that doing something CPU intensive will cause xruns on -lowlatency
[04:11] <ailo_> ScottL, We should perhaps add loading GTK and compressing files to the test. Are you doing some testing today?
[04:13] <ScottL> ailo_, not today, it's almost bed time for me, but either tomorrow or the next day i can
[04:15] <ailo_> ScottL, Oky. I'll commit my results in the next hour or so.
[04:23] <holstein> DAMN
[04:23] <holstein> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5596292345587801058
[04:23] <holstein> ^ that looks NICE
[04:28] <ailo_> holstein, Very nice
[04:29] <ailo_> holstein, I added some things to the test. You can ask me later about the details, but just shortly: start GIMP while using Ardour. Only record and play with Ardour. Compress a large folder containing many files while running Ardour.
[04:29] <ailo_> holstein, That should be enough.
[04:31] <holstein> ailo_: i'll ping you and see if you are around
[04:31] <holstein> when i get to testing
[04:32] <ailo_> holstein, Alrite
[04:34] <ailo_> Only added one machine so far https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_test_results
[04:58] <ScottL> yes holstein , jorge's work looks tight
[05:26] <Kokito> did I hear my name? :)
[05:45] <holstein> Kokito: hey
[05:45] <holstein> i really like the latest screenies i see :)
[05:48] <Kokito> hi holstein 
[05:48] <Kokito> glad you like the theme
[05:48] <Kokito> it's shaping up nicely
[05:48] <holstein> yes
[05:48] <holstein> very nice
[21:43] <macinnisrr> scott-work: Say, I was wondering what exactly are the issues with workflow in Unity? Perhaps the underlying issues can be addressed rather than completely switching our DE. If not, I'd be happy to make artwork for a different DE like XFCE or LXDE. The upcoming 11.04 release of Dream Studio is using Unity, but I'm planning to roll XFCE, Gnome2, Gnome3, KDE, LXDE and fluxbox versions for 11.10, so I'm working on them
[21:43] <macinnisrr> es for all these anyway.
[21:44] <macinnisrr> BTW, I ended up getting my old laptop working so I'm (obviously) available while I'm not home.
[21:44] <scott-work> hi macinnisrr :)
[21:44] <macinnisrr> hey!
[21:44] <scott-work> i thought you had fallen of the face of the earth :P
[21:45] <macinnisrr> no, just the face of the internet.
[21:45] <scott-work> lol
[21:45] <scott-work> that happens from time to time
[21:46] <macinnisrr> word. My wife is having some health issues, so we've been staying at her parents' place for the last little while...
[21:47] <scott-work> oh man, i'm sorry to hear that
[21:47] <scott-work> that certainly has a way of putting some things in perspective
[21:48] <scott-work> anyway, back to your question
[21:48] <scott-work> how do you feel about using unity for the DE?  have you recorded much with it?  did it affect your work flow?
[21:50] <scott-work> macinnisrr: are you there still?
[21:51] <macinnisrr> I just switched my main pc and laptop to 11.04 a couple days ago. I've used it for graphic design, recording, video, etc. Everything seems to be just fine.
[21:51]  * scott-work is waiting for ailo to jump in and say, "i told you so!"  ;)
[21:51] <scott-work> macinnisrr: you don't have any troubles switching between apps?
[21:52] <ailo> Well, my experience is more that I get crashes with Unity, but I did install it from Ubuntu Studio, so that may be the problem
[21:52] <macinnisrr> Unity-2d is coming along nicely too, I'm sure it will be in the same shape as compiz unity come 11.10. And, no, I've had no trouble switching.
[21:52] <ailo> Other than that, I would need to find out how to adjust settings, like for the panel. 
[21:53] <macinnisrr> I have heard that unity crashes lots right now, so I can fully understand not using it as default for now, but more users (because it's default in ubuntu) should highlight why that is, and it will only get better.
[21:53] <ailo> scott-work, And, why not see about using your ideas for the Unity panel, or something that would work on all of them?
[21:53] <macinnisrr> what do you want to do to the panel?
[21:53] <ailo> I would expect Unity to be more stable for 11.10, but who can know for sure?
[21:53] <scott-work> ailo: that's an interesting idea
[21:55] <ailo> macinnisrr, For me personally, I would like to be able to adjust the panel just like a normal panel. Don't know how much work it's now. Do you know how to tweak it?
[21:55] <ailo> Also, I have not tried the 2-D variant at all
[21:56] <macinnisrr> ailo: just how to tweak transparency, background, and icons. There is currently no way to add or remove applets.
[21:56] <ailo> Custom launchers, and it would be great if one could add submenus and things like that. I'm sure all of that will come with time
[21:56] <macinnisrr> OTOH, there are lots of appindicators in development (like the weather indicator that I currently use to replace the old weather applet).
[21:57] <macinnisrr> and you can always add launchers to the dock.
[21:57] <scott-work> macinnisrr: sorry, was looking for it in history:  http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
[21:57] <scott-work> that's my idea about docks
[21:57] <macinnisrr> Right clicking on the applications icon on the dock gives you a menu
[21:57] <ailo> Right now, the only thing that bugs me is that the panel is not customizable, and I'm missing some applets.
[21:58] <ailo> macinnisrr, That's a nice feature, which I suspect is loaned from Win 7
[21:59] <macinnisrr> scott: I'm working on a unity "lens" for workflow, which would give options for design, video, and recording, as well as the ability to create a custom workflow. Clicking on the workflow would open all the apps needed (qjackctl, ardour, hydrogen and some synths, for example).
[22:00] <macinnisrr> funny, I always have these ideas only to find that you had them first! ;-)
[22:00] <ailo> macinnisrr, Like a session manager?
[22:01] <macinnisrr> ailo: exactly, but right on the dock/places, so it's easy for new users to discover (which are the main users who need such a feature).
[22:02] <macinnisrr> ailo: also, I'm not a programming expert, but lenses I think I can handle (just reading the specs right now).
[22:02] <ailo> macinnisrr, I would go with something universal, like a session manager, a la ladish, which already exists, and just add some default custom launchers that opens premade sessions, like demos
[22:02] <ailo> The user does not need a helping hand beyond the introduction
[22:03] <ailo> Or, one would have to put some serious work into premade solutions
[22:03] <ailo> But there are no solutions that work for everyone anyway
[22:04] <macinnisrr> ailo: that's a great idea. I know that KXStudio has a session manager (klaudia, I think), but it has too many options IMHO, and ends up hidden in the audio menu where it could be hard to find.
[22:04] <ailo> ScottL's ideas sound to me more about having different profiles for a dock, and changing the profile would change the set of launchers
[22:05] <ailo> And that doesn't need to be an introductionary demo thing in my opinion. That can be used for a anything. Not only multimedia
[22:05] <scott-work> macinnisrr:  your "lens" concept sounds a lot like what ladish would provide
[22:05] <ailo> A couple of demos would be enough as introduction, if you ask me
[22:05] <scott-work> macinnisrr: well for audio at least :P
[22:06] <scott-work> oh, just read where ailo said "ladish" too 
[22:06] <macinnisrr> ailo: absolutely, but making a session for recording a band, for making electronic music, for doing design, and for video would all be easy. And I totally agree with it being usable for not just audio (but yes, definitely audio). For instance, when I design themes, I usually have inkscape, gimp, thewidgetfactory and nautilus open. Current ladish session managers don't address this type of work.
[22:08] <scott-work> ailo: macinnisrr: i will give unity another look this weekend, i'll erase a partition and install the latest vanilla natty on it and play with it over the weekend
[22:08] <ailo> macinnisrr, All of those applications can take a while to learn, so being able to launch them in a group would only introduce them to the user. Don't know what lens is, but I can see a point in having an application that can create multi-application-launching, which is really just many launch commands in a row
[22:09] <macinnisrr> basically, with my idea, there is always a "workflow" button on the dock, and when you click on it, the dash opens and gives you a few different workflow options as well as a button to create your own, which would open a wizard.
[22:09] <macinnisrr> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/five-neat-unity-lenses-in-development/
[22:11] <macinnisrr> ailo: totally. Tutorials is the other side of the big additions I'm working on right now (currently recording an album which I'll use as a tutorial, including creating artwork and making videos).
[22:11] <ailo> The *only* thing I can see helping the user is demos and tutorials. All the other stuff is just tools, that can be handy to have.
[22:11] <ailo> I mean, help the user to learn about how to use the software
[22:12] <macinnisrr> ailo: templates are helpful too (like plugin presets and ardour sessions), and that's in the works as well.
[22:13] <ailo> macinnisrr, Well, that would be a new area, beyond learning about software. That would be learning about sound engineering
[22:13] <macinnisrr> scott-work: Unity definitely does things a bit differently, but the learning curve is small, and it works really well once you get used to it.
[22:14] <ailo> Though, if someone has a lot of experience in some plugins and know which are great to use, a template might give a nice start for a new experienced user.
[22:14] <macinnisrr> ailo: isn't that what we're using the software for? :-)
[22:14] <ailo> For the unexperienced user, giving a template I guess is helpful too, but it won't make them able to user them properly
[22:15] <macinnisrr> ailo: I used to use Logic, and their presets and templates taught me a lot of things I wouldn't have thought of on my own (even though I had been doing sound for years prior).
[22:16] <scott-work> macinnisrr: i definitely agree with plugin presets
[22:16] <scott-work> ailo: i dont' necessairly agree with only demoes and tutorials helping users
[22:16] <macinnisrr> scott-work: they're one of the only things we don't have that windows and mac users do.
[22:16] <scott-work> ailo: i still feel very strongly that having a visual workflow (with icons) helps new users quite a bit in understanding what comes next, even without tutorial or demos
[22:17] <scott-work> macinnisrr: i had a similar discussion with someone else lately, it flows like this:
[22:17] <macinnisrr> scott-work: agreed. Discoverability!
[22:17] <scott-work> what is different between proprietary and open source music production?
[22:17] <ailo> scott-work, Well, I disagree. I think that is a tool for any user, but it won't make new users understand what they are doing any better
[22:17] <scott-work> we record audio the same and it gets made into 1's and 0's and stored the same
[22:18] <scott-work> but the reall magic happens when they start using their proprietary "black box" plugins, that have presets
[22:18] <scott-work> how many wankers are there with a mac and a bunch of plugins that are considerd "mixers" theseday
[22:19] <scott-work> i think that if many of the great mixers or masterers (i'm talking bob katz level) were to use linux it would still sound incredible
[22:20] <scott-work> it's the talent behind the keyboard that tends to make the sound
[22:20] <scott-work> ailo: i would have for me, it's great to have all these tutorials but without a structure it's a bit of a mess really
[22:20] <ailo> I think it would be nice to have some presets, like typical compression presets for kick, snare, guitar, vocals and so on. 
[22:20] <scott-work> having a visual context of what shoudl be started before the next was a great tool to help me organize the process in my head
[22:21] <ailo> But, if the user doesn't understand compression and levels, the presets won't make their music sound good anywya
[22:21] <ailo> I'm just saying that one is a tool, and the other is education
[22:22] <macinnisrr> scott-work: absolutely! When I started recording, I didn't know about mastering, so I didn't bother. Then I got a copy of T-Racks and used the "FM Radio" preset as my exclusive mastering for years. When I finally switched to linux full time, I didn't have that plugin, but I knew enough about how it worked from tweaking the presets that I was able to recreate the sound I liked with open source plugins. Had I never u
[22:22] <macinnisrr> sed those presets, however, I would have had no idea how to do proper mastering. And I totally agree with you: A good sound engineer would love the stuff we've got on linux. From JACK to the multitude of ladspa plugins, we have all the tools we need.
[22:22] <macinnisrr> ailo: I agree. Using a preset is just the first step, you can't stop there.
[22:23] <ailo> It's of course possible to make templates just like on Logic, for a whole recording session. Maybe a prerecorded mixed song could serve as an example?
[22:23] <macinnisrr> ailo: BTW, compression is one of the hardest to design presets for, as it's completely dependent on the source material (moreso than any other plugin aside from maybe gate). You can use preset attack and release though.
[22:24] <macinnisrr> ailo: absolutely. As I mentioned, I'm doing this with a whole album.
[22:24] <ailo> macinnisrr, Ah, ok. Your own album?
[22:25] <macinnisrr> ailo: yes.
[22:26] <scott-work> macinnisrr: so a unity lens is a way to contextually search?  perhaps with tags
[22:26] <macinnisrr> my last album was mixed in Ardour, but had been recorded on Logic.
[22:27] <macinnisrr> scott-work: yes, and I figure if I create a workflow wizard first (which would just create a custom launcher) then the wizard and the custom launchers could be displayed in a lens.
[22:28] <scott-work> interesting...i did look at the omgubuntu blog about it
[22:29] <macinnisrr> luckily, most of this type of stuff can be done with shell scripts and xml, which I feel comfortable with, even though I by no means consider myself a programmer.
[22:31]  * macinnisrr listening to the beatles remastered white album -  Awesome!
[22:34] <ailo> scott-work, Let's put some of these ideas down, that only deal with the workflows. I have three ideas on how to introduce audio applications to the user from the desktop. I'm sure two of them can be used for graphics and videos as well. 
[22:35] <ailo> scott-work, macinnisrr How about when the user logs in for the first time, an introductionary window appears with options for demos or whatever
[22:35] <macinnisrr> ailo: I totally agree.
[22:35] <ailo> Not hard to code, using either python or just zenity
[22:36] <ailo> macinnisrr, ScottL has put this up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[22:36] <ailo> I'm really not that concerned with the actual workflow, like what apps to use for mixing, what to use for mastering and so on, but just on how to introduce this to the user. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it
[22:37] <ailo> Anything from showing a video, to ladish, to opening apps in a sequence and having some text explain what they are and what they do
[22:37] <ailo> The last one could be done with a simple script
[22:38] <macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: thanks for the link. This is perfect.
[22:38] <ailo> There's no getting around the fact that in order to use the tools, you first have to learn how to use them. But, before that, I totally agree, that the user needs to know they exist first
[22:39] <scott-work> ailo: i like that idea, i would even like a menu entry to allow them to revisit the same information...much like i would like a "release notes" entry in the menu as well
[22:40] <ailo> scott-work, How about integrating that into -controls, and keep -controls active at startup, in the indicator tray
[22:40] <macinnisrr> ailo: totally. At this point, I've made two versions of Dream Studio, and even though I have more users than ever, the requests for more/different apps has totally leveled off. From this release on, all the focus is on making things easier to learn (and of course, any ideas that are deemed appropriate for Ubuntustudio will make their way in at the same time).
[22:41] <ailo> macinnisrr, I prefer that idea as well. Too many apps can be a little confusing
[22:42] <scott-work> ailo: this makes me wonder whether -controls should even be called -controls anymore...more like a control/information panel
[22:43] <ailo> scott-work, I like -controls. It being an icon, with a menu. In the menu you have "system settings", "help", and maybe other things as well, like multimedia package managment, things that KXStudio has, all in one place
[22:44] <macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: also, what about putting jack preferences in the control center? We can make jack default to realtime, 1024 buffer, and 44100hz, but users could adjust this from the sound control panel, and have a dedicated patchbay, eliminating the need for qjackctl.
[22:44] <ailo> macinnisrr, It would seem falktx has been working on that.
[22:44] <macinnisrr> we could put ubuntustudio-controls in the same section
[22:45] <macinnisrr> ailo: really? excellent. I haven't spoken with him in a while, but I'm glad we're on the same page.
[22:45] <macinnisrr> ailo: what's his package called?
[22:45] <ailo> I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel. It would be great if some apps could be integrated into the controls menu, like qjackctl, patchage, or any other similar app, like a plugin
[22:45] <scott-work> ailo: in that context i agree about -controls...if it is an icon in the panel with a right-click menu showing those items seems to give the user the proper idea about the purpose
[22:46] <scott-work> ailo: i think he had almost everything in cadence (i think) but he didn't have patchage in their as well (i think), i suggested he do it thought
[22:46] <scott-work> s/thought/though
[22:46] <macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: yes, current solution (controls and qjackctl) is inconsistent with the rest of the desktop.
[22:46] <ailo> macinnisrr, I don't remember the name anymore. falktx started his own controls application
[22:46] <scott-work> because this would allow the user to avoid using so many different applications and could use a single one with multiple tabs
[22:47] <ailo> The only problem is if the new app is not as functional, or more buggy, or creates confusion. It really needs to be a great app
[22:47] <macinnisrr> ailo: I'll have to take a closer look. I use lots of his packages, but there's so  much in his repo that it's hard to test them all.
[22:48] <macinnisrr> ailo: agreed.
[22:48] <ailo> I would like to add pulse-jack to system settings options. 
[22:48] <ailo> I think falktx already does a lot that is needed by users. 
[22:49] <scott-work> macinnisrr: i'm pretty sure the program is called "cadence"
[22:51] <macinnisrr> ailo: good idea! And yes, falktx is great.
[22:51] <scott-work> guitarman says he thinks it's cadence as well
[22:52] <ailo> I still haven't been using KXStudio a lot. My first impression was that it was a little disorientating. But, overall, it feels like he is on the right track.
[22:52] <macinnisrr> scott-work: am installing it as we speak.
[22:53] <macinnisrr> ailo: I personally would have never started Dream Studio if KXStudio had been gnome based. I just think that there's enough to worry about with a small distro without changing the desktop.
[22:54] <ailo> macinnisrr, It would be good to have more people looking into what falktx is doing and try promote that which is good, so they end up in other distros as well
[22:55] <macinnisrr> ailo: for sure. I use all the improvements I find, and now that I'm part of this team, I'll be proposing them here as well.
[22:57] <macinnisrr> ailo: In general, I always keep an eye on all the multimedia distros (AVLinux, KXStudio, ArtistX, JACKlab, Ubuntustudio, etc.), and add all the improvements from each of these as I find them.
[22:59] <scott-work> ailo: part of the problem with falktx work is that he isn't committed to working on it to get it packaged up to debian/ubuntu standards
[23:00] <macinnisrr> in addition to the different desktop environments, I'm thinking of doing a linux mint version of Dream Studio as well; they get great reviews, so I'd be interested in adding any of the improvements they've made as well.
[23:00] <scott-work> if he did, a good percentage may already be in ubuntu studio
[23:01] <macinnisrr> scott-work: what do his packages need to be approved? Since they're already packaged (in his ppa), it couldn't be much work to adjust them...
[23:01] <scott-work> macinnisrr: that is true, but introducing a new package can be tricky sometimes....i have suggested that he try with the debian multimedia team
[23:02] <scott-work> they seem to be much more active than REVU and quite friendly and helpful to boot
[23:02] <ailo> scott-work, Also, I get the feeling he is more of a visionary then the guy that makes things water proof. I would be interested in seeing what of his work could be added to Ubuntu Studio as a part of -controls and Ubuntu Studio settings. Take out the good things at least.
[23:02] <scott-work> i'm going home...see you in about thirty minutes
[23:03] <macinnisrr> scott-work: and debian multimedia stuff automatically makes it in from upstream right? ailo: agreed. I've tried a couple of his apps, and they're good ideas, but usually pretty confusing as the UI goes.
[23:06] <ailo> macinnisrr, Well, seems like you have ScottL reconsidering Desktops. I was the only one not immediately jumping on the XFCE train. But, I gave up trying to argue against it because I realized I'm not going to present them with an alternative. Would take too much of my time
[23:08] <macinnisrr> ailo: personally, I don't think we should stray from Ubuntu unless we have to. I'd rather address current issues than change completely, as that can introduce its own issues.
[23:09] <ailo> macinnisrr, I agree, in part. Unity has some problems, that serious multimedia users can't accept, but then again, we don't need to recommend the latest release
[23:09] <ailo> Problems being crashes and such
[23:09] <ailo> Bugs
[23:09] <macinnisrr> as it is currently, ubuntu-manual.org has an excellent manual on the desktop, and our window controls are on the opposite side, so new users could be confused.
[23:11] <macinnisrr> ailo: for sure, stability is key, but like I say, after a full release cycle of testing from users, I'm sure the major bugs will get worked out.
[23:11] <ailo> I'm sure XFCE is easy enough, since it's a very traditional system, but using that would be a step back. Most arguments against Unity and Gnome3 I have heard do not make sense to me. Stability and tweakability are my only issues. Functionality seems to have improved
[23:13] <ailo> XFCE is kinda a safe bet. I believe it has some issues that Gnome2 does not have
[23:13] <ailo> Still, personally, I would go with either Unity or Gnome3
[23:13] <macinnisrr> ailo; totally. Aside from tweakability and stability, every other argument against unity is nothing more than personal preference. XFCE would be different too (just not as different, though that's not necessarily a good thing).
[23:15] <macinnisrr> and though XFCE is more stable, try to think about how a graphic designer would feel using a system that doesn't look as good as the alternatives. Part of Mac/OSX's appeal to designers is its aesthetic beauty.
[23:16] <macinnisrr> Gnome2, XFCE, LXDE, etc. simply do not look as good/modern as unity/gnome3/kde4
[23:16] <ailo> As long as beauty does not affect performance, or stability. It doesn't seem to me that Unity is using any more memory than Gnome2. But, right now, it does crash a lot
[23:17] <ailo> KDE4 is polished, but I would claim it looks as old as XFCE
[23:17] <ailo> The widgets that were popular for a while, are they really useful for anything?
[23:19] <macinnisrr> so unless we're becoming an audio-only distro, we've got to consider that. And yeah, unity is still very buggy. I couldn't switch full time to unity until a couple days ago when my screen stopped flickering randomly (and about a week before that compiz stopped crashing constantly). It's still very fresh. I must say that I like KDE4, but its default setup is too reminiscent of windows for me (shudder).
[23:31] <macinnisrr> aside from stability, I have only two issues with Unity: 1. QJACKctl  system tray icon doesn't show up, even when I whitelist all applications. This could be remedied by either adding appindicator support to qjackctl, or doing away with qjackctl, so it's not a huge deal. 2. Workspace switching takes one click more than it used to. Also not a huge deal, as the extra click only takes a second, and keyboard shortcuts 
[23:31] <macinnisrr> are the same as they always were.
[23:37] <ailo> macinnisrr, Yeah, it shouldn't be too hard to add indicator functionality to it.
[23:39] <macinnisrr> ailo: from what little I understand, indicator support is just xml.
[23:40] <macinnisrr> spoke too soon about unity's stability: my dock just quit responding. I'll be back in a minute after I re-login.
[23:40] <ailo> macinnisrr, I've seen examples in using different languages to code indicator applets. Don't know about xml
[23:43] <macinnisrr> I'm baaack!
[23:43] <ailo> macinnisrr, I was just saying that I've seen examples on how to code applets, using python, c, and other languages. Perhaps xml is used by some applets?
[23:44] <ailo> macinnisrr, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators
[23:45] <macinnisrr> hmmm.... could be. I just assumed that applets are full applications (where xml is used for lists, menus, settings, etc., and can't actually "do" anything).
[23:45] <macinnisrr> ailo: what applets do you use that don't have appindicator equivalents?
[23:46] <ailo> macinnisrr, The code is different for indicator-applets and notification-tray applets. That's what I mean. You need to code the applet
[23:47] <ailo> Or, you need to add or change that part of the code
[23:47] <ailo> Some applications can do both. 
[23:47] <ailo> Like network-manager
[23:47] <ailo> If you take away the indicator-tray, it will end up in the notification-tray
[23:48] <ailo> Or, the icon will
[23:48] <ailo> Anyway, it's not very hard to create an indicator-icon with a menu
[23:48] <ailo> I will be using python for that
[23:49] <macinnisrr> ailo: aha. Yeah, that's the sort of thing I don't mind doing, writing a whole application is beyond me (unless it's in BASIC). Even if we can get the systray icon for qjackctl working, the icon should be changed to match the rest (monochrome).
[23:49] <macinnisrr> python is basically a scripting language, right?
[23:50] <macinnisrr> e.g. not processor specific.
[23:50] <ailo> It is, since you don't compile it, but it's still pretty powerful. And with a bunch of libraries, you can get code all kinds of stuff
[23:50] <ailo> It's easy to do simple things
[23:51] <macinnisrr> ailo: cool. I think that may be my next learning venture. You see all kinds of things written in python. Can you create GUIs in python?
[23:52] <ailo> macinnisrr, ubuntustudio-controls is written in python. Many applications are, using python + gtk, or python + qt
[23:52] <ailo> ubuntustudio-controls is using a gui made with Glade. 
[23:52] <macinnisrr> ailo: right. On Dream Studio I call Ubuntustudio-controls "Realtime Audio controls". All I had to do was edit some text files.
[23:53] <macinnisrr> ailo: is there a graphical way to edit the glade files (like visualbasic)?
[23:53] <ailo> macinnisrr, Did you change the functionality too? It has been outdated now for more than a year
[23:53] <ailo> macinnisrr, Glade is a program to create gkt gui's
[23:53] <ScottL> ailo, macinnisrr :  one thing to consider about using xfce is that we can work closely with their developer which increases our development base and basing on them puts us that much closer to a having an official build of a live dvd
[23:54] <macinnisrr> ailo: I made it refer to the proper config file (/etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf as opposed to /etc/security/limits.conf). Other than that and the name change, it's stock.
[23:54] <ailo> ScottL, The question is how much of a burden would a live DVD really be, if we did it ourselves. Someone needs to do it, though
[23:55] <ailo> macinnisrr, Ok. Then yours is more up to date than the one in the main repo
[23:55] <macinnisrr> ailo: I already mentioned to scott that I would be happy to make a liveDVD for 11.04 and on, using UCK, and could even host it on my site.
[23:55] <ailo> macinnisrr, But, since Maverick, the firewire part is out of date, though
[23:56] <macinnisrr> ailo: right, I changed that too, now that you mention it, but I'm not sure if it's correct, as I have no firewire devices.
[23:56] <ailo> macinnisrr, And with natty, no adjustments are needed at all for firewire
[23:56] <macinnisrr> ailo: aha! I know that I had previously added all users to not only the "audio" group, but also "video", as that has more permissions regarding firewire.
[23:57] <ailo> macinnisrr, It doesn't really matter if it is audio or video, but depends more on the file that puts firewire devices into the audio or video group. Now, in Natty, firewire is automatically a part of audio group
[23:57] <macinnisrr> ailo: I basically just surfed the ardour forum for system tweaks and added them all to the default install of Dream Studio.
[23:59] <macinnisrr> ailo: I see. Well, that's good. Either way, though, seeing as Dream Studio and Ubuntu Studio both feature video functionality, any extra permissions for a "video" group should be accessible by default.