hajour1 | goodnight all i go give back undifined his pc XD | 00:09 |
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=== API is now known as apinheiro | ||
=== apinheiro is now known as apinheiro_lunch | ||
=== apinheiro_lunch is now known as apinheiro | ||
=== zippo^ is now known as erkan^ | ||
AlanBell | bug 554057 | 15:54 |
ubot2 | Launchpad bug 554057 in fglrx-installer "fglrxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion() (dup-of: 546885)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554057 | 15:54 |
ubot2 | Launchpad bug 546885 in fglrx-installer "glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/546885 | 15:54 |
AlanBell | gnome bug 554057 | 15:55 |
ubot2 | Gnome bug 554057 in menu "Calling gtk_menu_shell_select_item() on GtkMenuBar can break grabs (and create big accessibility issues)" [Major,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554057 | 15:55 |
=== JasonO_ is now known as JasonO | ||
=== JasonO_ is now known as JasonO | ||
=== UndiFineD is now known as hajour | ||
=== hajour is now known as hajour1 | ||
AlanBell | http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/ | 18:56 |
AlanBell | https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/onboard/branding/+merge/58715 | 18:56 |
AlanBell | TheMuso: charlie-tca Pendulum could you please add a comment to bug 768583 to confirm that the contrasts of my cosmetic onboard adjustments are ok | 21:42 |
ubot2 | Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/768583 | 21:42 |
AlanBell | sladen is helping to get this through | 21:42 |
charlie-tca | Is there any way to get the damn thing in the menu? | 21:43 |
charlie-tca | It is really ironic that we can get anything done except the stuff that really matters to accessibility use | 21:44 |
AlanBell | probably not for Natty :( | 21:44 |
charlie-tca | I read that as never, actually. | 21:45 |
AlanBell | however making it pretty and getting the design team to feel it is part of their platform is my strategy for getting it in the menu | 21:45 |
AlanBell | however I am not going to be able to achieve step 2 of my strategy in the next week | 21:46 |
charlie-tca | Considering it has waited for, what, about three years now, I guess another 6 months is okay | 21:47 |
maco | if sladen's on it, it'll probably get done though | 21:47 |
AlanBell | yup | 21:48 |
maco | i reported a bug about illegibility of £ at small sizes, and he argued with a designer for a few days on it | 21:48 |
maco | (designer relented!) | 21:48 |
AlanBell | sladen is this minute *excited* about onboard, he wants the ubuntu mono font on it | 21:48 |
AlanBell | he is on the design team | 21:48 |
AlanBell | he wants onboard to be part of the branding effort of the design team | 21:49 |
maco | i mean he argued with one of those contracted designers that's actually making the font | 21:49 |
AlanBell | Dalton Maag | 21:49 |
maco | yeah them | 21:49 |
AlanBell | so yeah, I love it when a plan comes together | 21:50 |
charlie-tca | It is going to be pink and orange? | 21:52 |
AlanBell | "light aubergine" | 21:54 |
AlanBell | ok, yeah, pink | 21:54 |
charlie-tca | scares me. After the solitare branding change, I had to remove the branding package, since the faded cards become too hard on the eyes | 21:54 |
AlanBell | I made the main keycaps have the most contrast | 21:54 |
AlanBell | followed by the numbers | 21:54 |
AlanBell | shift and space have bolder colours because you don't need contrast | 21:55 |
AlanBell | all it has to be right now is not worse than the old colours from a contrast perspective | 21:55 |
AlanBell | if you sign off that bug that it is OK and we get it into Natty then it can be made really pretty by proper designers during the Oneiric cycle | 21:56 |
charlie-tca | Okay, I gave you a good comment on it | 21:57 |
charlie-tca | but if the cards is the work of those designers, it would be better if they leave this alone | 21:58 |
AlanBell | heh | 21:58 |
charlie-tca | bug 754775 | 21:58 |
ubot2 | Launchpad bug 754775 in gnome-games "New branding on aisleriot solitaire cards is faded" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/754775 | 21:58 |
charlie-tca | If that is the best they can do, they seriously need to leave onboard alone. | 21:59 |
AlanBell | that odd grey curve thing? | 22:00 |
charlie-tca | No, that is the only part of the card with good contrast | 22:00 |
charlie-tca | the entire top two-thirds of the card fades | 22:01 |
charlie-tca | The fade does not show up right in the screenshot. Trying to play, I can not hardly see anything outside the gray | 22:02 |
AlanBell | yeah, I think I see what you mean, on picture cards | 22:09 |
AlanBell | I can barely see the fade on regular cards | 22:09 |
charlie-tca | It shows bad on them here | 22:10 |
charlie-tca | I have used the ubuntu branding since they came up with it, but I can not use it any more. | 22:10 |
j1mc | charlie-tca: what problems is the branding causing you? | 22:12 |
charlie-tca | Can not read the suit nor the designator of the cards | 22:12 |
j1mc | ah | 22:13 |
charlie-tca | I can faded red or faded black | 22:13 |
charlie-tca | I can see faded red or faded black | 22:13 |
j1mc | charlie-tca: btw, i will be at UDS. would be good to meet up and go over docs / a11y stuff if you have time. | 22:13 |
charlie-tca | It actually looks like the cards are a very old, worn deck | 22:13 |
charlie-tca | j1mc: great! I will look forward to that | 22:14 |
j1mc | i don't have much experience with a11y, and want to make sure docs work ok with a11y features. | 22:14 |
charlie-tca | Okay, we can do that. | 22:15 |
charlie-tca | I seem to be gaining experience | 22:15 |
j1mc | if there are other a11y people who will be there, i can talk with them, too. | 22:15 |
j1mc | i just know you a little better from xubuntu stuff is all. :) | 22:16 |
=== j1mc is now known as j1mc|away | ||
charlie-tca | No problem. Hajour should be there, and pleia2 and maco | 22:16 |
Pendulum | and Cher703 | 22:16 |
Pendulum | (she wants to do a lot more a11y this cycle) | 22:17 |
charlie-tca | Great! | 22:17 |
charlie-tca | So, who do we have to convince that the new scroll bars are bad, too? | 22:17 |
Pendulum | AlanBell: commented (short and to the point, but really you don't want me rambling at the moment because who knows what would have happened) | 22:17 |
JanC | maco / AlanBell : sladen worked as a programmer for a company that made DTP / typesetting software some time in the past, so he knows a thing about fonts & design ☺ | 22:18 |
charlie-tca | You get to find a very small orangeish bars, about 1 x 2 pixel to click on now to get a scroll bar to use | 22:18 |
charlie-tca | Pendulum: that's why I rambled here. :-) | 22:18 |
AlanBell | JanC: yeah I know, I had a bit of involvement in some of the font testing and feedback | 22:19 |
Pendulum | charlie-tca: I'm doped up on pain meds and still trying to figure out if there's any way to avoid using my arms/neck/shoulders for the rest of the night | 22:20 |
* hypatia is thinking about building a braille display "emulator" so sighted testers can do QA without knowing braille | 22:21 | |
JanC | charlie-tca: the new scroll bars might be useful for netbook size displays if you want to save space, but they lack features like the scroll one "page" up/down... | 22:21 |
charlie-tca | Pendulum: Sorry to hear that. I hope you to feeling better | 22:21 |
charlie-tca | JanC: and that does nothing to make them usable | 22:21 |
charlie-tca | They seem to lack the thing called "find the scroll bar easily" too | 22:22 |
charlie-tca | I seem to spend a lot of wasted time resizing the window when all I want to do is scroll | 22:23 |
JanC | well, if I could enable/disable them with a shortcut, I would use them sometimes, but for some programs they lack a lot in usability | 22:23 |
JanC | also teh fact that sometimes they are inside and sometimes outside is confusing | 22:23 |
JanC | inside or outside the widget that gets scrolled I mean | 22:24 |
charlie-tca | yup | 22:25 |
charlie-tca | one more of the "let's not make it accessible" decisions | 22:26 |
charlie-tca | j1mc|away: Onboard docs are at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/OnboardAndMousetweaksAtGDM | 22:30 |
maco | JanC: wait the pgup/pgdn don't work with them? O_o | 23:04 |
JanC | maco: at least I don't know how to do it ;) | 23:06 |
JanC | I mean pgup/pgdn by clicking the mouse between the "slider button" and the "arrow buttons" | 23:06 |
charlie-tca | I couldn't get anything to work except clicking on the arrows themselves | 23:07 |
JanC | hm, I drag the slider? | 23:08 |
JanC | you mean, those are buttons too ? :P | 23:08 |
JanC | okay, apparently they are | 23:08 |
charlie-tca | you click on that little tiny slider? | 23:09 |
charlie-tca | I will try that next time | 23:09 |
JanC | nu, I thought the thing that pops up was the slider ;) | 23:09 |
charlie-tca | Oh | 23:09 |
JanC | well, or a grip for the slider | 23:10 |
JanC | or whatever | 23:10 |
charlie-tca | I couldn't find anything there to move except to click the arrows | 23:10 |
JanC | you can click & drag it | 23:10 |
JanC | so mouse down + drag | 23:10 |
charlie-tca | I will have to try that, then. | 23:10 |
JanC | but I guess we just proved it is difficult to discover how it works | 23:11 |
charlie-tca | Everything about unity falls into that area | 23:12 |
charlie-tca | lol, at least we got more information that we started with | 23:13 |
AlanBell | the tiny scrollbars are in now? | 23:13 |
AlanBell | how do I turn them on? | 23:13 |
charlie-tca | They were just there in nautilus or docs or something when I was testing the beta2 images | 23:14 |
jbicha | only some applications have them by default | 23:14 |
AlanBell | ok not there in nautilus for me | 23:14 |
JanC | install liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 | 23:15 |
AlanBell | but I did some unwise recompilation of compiz and broke unity a few times | 23:15 |
charlie-tca | I just click on things in the launcher to test | 23:15 |
JanC | and then kill & restart nautilus | 23:15 |
jbicha | AlanBell: you didn't install Gnome 3, did you? | 23:15 |
AlanBell | no, just compiz trunk | 23:15 |
charlie-tca | clicking on things seems to find stuff that makes life miserable or is broken. That's why I test | 23:15 |
AlanBell | although I think I backed it all out again | 23:16 |
jbicha | I have the scrollbars in nautilus | 23:16 |
* AlanBell has tiny scrollbars | 23:16 | |
jbicha | but if you install the experimental gnome 3 ppa, you'll be back to the old ones | 23:16 |
Pendulum | AlanBell: were they just so tiny you didn't see them? | 23:16 |
AlanBell | no, I didn't have liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 | 23:17 |
AlanBell | installed that and restarted nautilus and there they are | 23:17 |
AlanBell | teeny weeny | 23:17 |
JanC | and if you hover over the orange line, you get some sort of scroll thing | 23:18 |
charlie-tca | yeah, just try clicking on them when you need a 14pt font to read the screen | 23:18 |
AlanBell | yup the handle thingie | 23:18 |
JanC | which is apparently both for grab & drag as well as clicking | 23:19 |
AlanBell | yeah, bit odd the way it stops when you get close to it so you can click on it | 23:19 |
AlanBell | however works fine with compiz enhanced zoom | 23:19 |
JanC | I think it would be more useful to just have normal scroll bars pop up if you move the mouse near where they should be | 23:20 |
AlanBell | almost fine anyhow, there is a bit of mouse lag, but I think that is a performance issue on my VM | 23:20 |
AlanBell | why would that be more useful? | 23:20 |
AlanBell | mouse wheel scrolling still works | 23:21 |
JanC | try it on a nautilus window with 1000 files | 23:21 |
* AlanBell goes to /usr/bin | 23:21 | |
AlanBell | works great | 23:22 |
charlie-tca | his eyes and hands work? | 23:22 |
JanC | I only get the thing to pop up when I hover over the orange part | 23:22 |
AlanBell | it would be nice to continuously scroll when you click and hold on half the handle | 23:23 |
JanC | you can drag if you want ;) | 23:23 |
AlanBell | ah, maybe I need a narrower nautilus window | 23:23 |
charlie-tca | JanC: that's the problem I have. I have problems just finding the orange part | 23:24 |
AlanBell | I am finding the orange bar doesn't go totally small | 23:24 |
AlanBell | it has a minimum height | 23:24 |
JanC | charlie-tca: if it would pop up if you hover over the whole area where normally the scrollbar would be, wouldn't that be more useful? | 23:24 |
charlie-tca | how big is yours, mine was aproximately twice as high as it was wide | 23:24 |
charlie-tca | JanC: yes | 23:25 |
charlie-tca | That would be fantastic | 23:25 |
AlanBell | looks like the orange bar doesn't get smaller than half the height of the grab handle | 23:25 |
JanC | AlanBell: it's about 1/40th of the screen height ;) | 23:25 |
JanC | maybe less of an issue on a netbook of course | 23:26 |
AlanBell | yes, not saying that the minimum height is good, just that if it was fully in proportion to the files in the list it should be less than a pixel high I should think! | 23:26 |
JanC | I also have the problem that I often move too far when I need it etc. | 23:26 |
charlie-tca | I guess I can only wish for hands and eyes that can use that thing. In the meantime, I will not be able to use unity | 23:27 |
JanC | or when your window is near the border of the screen it pops up on the inside, so you have to move your mouse to the border and then back | 23:27 |
JanC | but otherwise you have to move to the border of the window and then further | 23:28 |
AlanBell | charlie-tca: uninstall liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 should get back to normal | 23:28 |
charlie-tca | and if it ever goes further than Ubuntu, those will be other systems I can't use | 23:28 |
JanC | charlie-tca: just disable that library ;) | 23:28 |
JanC | s/disable/remove/ | 23:28 |
AlanBell | personally I think this is a decent first effort that needs some refinement | 23:30 |
AlanBell | so how close to you have to be to the orange thing for the handles to come up | 23:31 |
AlanBell | interesting focus follows mouse effect too | 23:32 |
AlanBell | if the window doesn't have focus and the mouse cursor isn't over it then it fades to a light grey | 23:33 |
AlanBell | which is almost invisible | 23:33 |
AlanBell | however that isn't neccessarily a bad thing in this situation, it is supposed to be low contrast | 23:33 |
JanC | it als ojust disappears if you wait too long to use it ;) | 23:33 |
AlanBell | really? | 23:34 |
AlanBell | there is an area to the left of the orange bar that makes the grab handle appear, nothing below or above | 23:35 |
AlanBell | JanC: oh, I see what you mean | 23:37 |
AlanBell | yeah, not sure I like that | 23:38 |
AlanBell | so where are the preferences for that then? | 23:39 |
AlanBell | can you make the handles bigger, and the orange bar minimum size bigger? | 23:39 |
JanC | wasn't it pushed into the repositories about a month after everybody else was forbidden to make UI changes or so? ;) | 23:40 |
AlanBell | that is traditional though | 23:40 |
AlanBell | I can arguably construct a bug situation | 23:43 |
AlanBell | I had orca (an always-on-top window) to the right of nautilus | 23:43 |
AlanBell | so the grab handles appeared under orca | 23:43 |
JanC | heh, good point | 23:43 |
AlanBell | can do the same with two nautilus windows side by side with the one on the right set to always on top | 23:44 |
JanC | or whatever window-set-on-top | 23:44 |
JanC | i suppose | 23:44 |
AlanBell | of course | 23:44 |
AlanBell | it is a bit of a contrived scenario | 23:45 |
JanC | anyway, IMO it's not very professional to push untested UI changes in at a point when they can't be tested or fixed anymore... | 23:47 |
JanC | there is a reason why those freezes exist... | 23:47 |
charlie-tca | must have been the design team, then. They get away with that each release | 23:47 |
AlanBell | it was sabdfled early this month http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/615 | 23:48 |
JanC | I know | 23:48 |
JanC | that doesn't make it professional ;) | 23:49 |
Pendulum | tbh, I suspect a lot of the late UI changes that look like they're from the design team are more sabdfl | 23:49 |
JanC | Pendulum: sabdfl is part of the design team | 23:49 |
JanC | but yeah, without his approval they probably couldn't do that | 23:50 |
* AlanBell is getting a late UI change to onboard through so isn't complaining too hard | 23:50 | |
JanC | AlanBell: freeze exceptions exist for a reason | 23:50 |
JanC | e.g. to *fix* something | 23:51 |
JanC | not to break things ;) | 23:51 |
JanC | (and nautilus has slightly more users than onboard too) | 23:51 |
AlanBell | I do agree | 23:52 |
AlanBell | I think the font last release was an equally huge and breakage prone thing to do | 23:52 |
JanC | well, that was at least tested somewhat | 23:53 |
AlanBell | heh, no | 23:53 |
Pendulum | JanC: I mean that he is the design team member who wants them in | 23:53 |
AlanBell | people looked at the glyphs and changed documents to the font | 23:53 |
AlanBell | they didn't change the default UI font to Ubuntu and look at the impact on applications | 23:54 |
JanC | AlanBell: I was using it as my default font and I'm sure many others did | 23:54 |
JanC | well, many of those who tested | 23:54 |
AlanBell | bug 629622 | 23:56 |
ubot2 | Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu-font-family-sources "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.69 in Maverick (10.10)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622 | 23:56 |
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