/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/21/#ubuntu-accessibility.txt

hajour1goodnight all i go give back undifined his pc XD00:09
=== hajour1 is now known as UndiFineD
=== API is now known as apinheiro
=== apinheiro is now known as apinheiro_lunch
=== apinheiro_lunch is now known as apinheiro
=== zippo^ is now known as erkan^
AlanBellbug 55405715:54
ubot2Launchpad bug 554057 in fglrx-installer "fglrxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion() (dup-of: 546885)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/55405715:54
ubot2Launchpad bug 546885 in fglrx-installer "glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54688515:54
AlanBellgnome bug 55405715:55
ubot2Gnome bug 554057 in menu "Calling gtk_menu_shell_select_item() on GtkMenuBar can break grabs (and create big accessibility issues)" [Major,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55405715:55
=== JasonO_ is now known as JasonO
=== JasonO_ is now known as JasonO
=== UndiFineD is now known as hajour
=== hajour is now known as hajour1
AlanBellhttp://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/18:56
AlanBellhttps://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/onboard/branding/+merge/5871518:56
AlanBellTheMuso: charlie-tca Pendulum could you please add a comment to bug 768583 to confirm that the contrasts of my cosmetic onboard adjustments are ok21:42
ubot2Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/76858321:42
AlanBellsladen is helping to get this through21:42
charlie-tcaIs there any way to get the damn thing in the menu?21:43
charlie-tcaIt is really ironic that we can get anything done except the stuff that really matters to accessibility use21:44
AlanBellprobably not for Natty :(21:44
charlie-tcaI read that as never, actually. 21:45
AlanBellhowever making it pretty and getting the design team to feel it is part of their platform is my strategy for getting it in the menu21:45
AlanBellhowever I am not going to be able to achieve step 2 of my strategy in the next week21:46
charlie-tcaConsidering it has waited for, what, about three years now, I guess another 6 months is okay21:47
macoif sladen's on it, it'll probably get done though21:47
AlanBellyup21:48
macoi reported a bug about illegibility of £ at small sizes, and he argued with a designer for a few days on it21:48
maco(designer relented!)21:48
AlanBellsladen is this minute *excited* about onboard, he wants the ubuntu mono font on it21:48
AlanBellhe is on the design team21:48
AlanBellhe wants onboard to be part of the branding effort of the design team21:49
macoi mean he argued with one of those contracted designers that's actually making the font21:49
AlanBellDalton Maag21:49
macoyeah them21:49
AlanBellso yeah, I love it when a plan comes together21:50
charlie-tcaIt is going to be pink and orange?21:52
AlanBell"light aubergine"21:54
AlanBellok, yeah, pink21:54
charlie-tcascares me. After the solitare branding change, I had to remove the branding package, since the faded cards become too hard on the eyes21:54
AlanBellI made the main keycaps have the most contrast21:54
AlanBellfollowed by the numbers21:54
AlanBellshift and space have bolder colours because you don't need contrast21:55
AlanBellall it has to be right now is not worse than the old colours from a contrast perspective21:55
AlanBellif you sign off that bug that it is OK and we get it into Natty then it can be made really pretty by proper designers during the Oneiric cycle21:56
charlie-tcaOkay, I gave you a good comment on it21:57
charlie-tcabut if the cards is the work of those designers, it would be better if they leave this alone21:58
AlanBellheh21:58
charlie-tcabug 75477521:58
ubot2Launchpad bug 754775 in gnome-games "New branding on aisleriot solitaire cards is faded" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75477521:58
charlie-tcaIf that is the best they can do, they seriously need to leave onboard alone.21:59
AlanBellthat odd grey curve thing?22:00
charlie-tcaNo, that is the only part of the card with good contrast22:00
charlie-tcathe entire top two-thirds of the card fades22:01
charlie-tcaThe fade does not show up right in the screenshot. Trying to play, I can not hardly see anything outside the gray22:02
AlanBellyeah, I think I see what you mean, on picture cards22:09
AlanBellI can barely see the fade on regular cards22:09
charlie-tcaIt shows bad on them here22:10
charlie-tcaI have used the ubuntu branding since they came up with it, but I can not use it any more.22:10
j1mccharlie-tca: what problems is the branding causing you?22:12
charlie-tcaCan not read the suit nor the designator of the cards22:12
j1mcah22:13
charlie-tcaI can faded red or faded black22:13
charlie-tcaI can see faded red or faded black22:13
j1mccharlie-tca: btw, i will be at UDS. would be good to meet up and go over docs / a11y stuff if you have time.22:13
charlie-tcaIt actually looks like the cards are a very old, worn deck22:13
charlie-tcaj1mc: great! I will look forward to that22:14
j1mci don't have much experience with a11y, and want to make sure docs work ok with a11y features. 22:14
charlie-tcaOkay, we can do that.22:15
charlie-tcaI seem to be gaining experience22:15
j1mcif there are other a11y people who will be there, i can talk with them, too. 22:15
j1mci just know you a little better from xubuntu stuff is all.  :)22:16
=== j1mc is now known as j1mc|away
charlie-tcaNo problem. Hajour should be there, and pleia2 and maco 22:16
Pendulumand Cher70322:16
Pendulum(she wants to do a lot more a11y this cycle)22:17
charlie-tcaGreat!22:17
charlie-tcaSo, who do we have to convince that the new scroll bars are bad, too?22:17
PendulumAlanBell: commented (short and to the point, but really you don't want me rambling at the moment because who knows what would have happened)22:17
JanCmaco / AlanBell : sladen worked as a programmer for a company that made DTP / typesetting software some time in the past, so he knows a thing about fonts & design  ☺22:18
charlie-tcaYou get to find a very small orangeish bars, about 1 x 2 pixel to click on now to get a scroll bar to use22:18
charlie-tcaPendulum: that's why I rambled here. :-)22:18
AlanBellJanC: yeah I know, I had a bit of involvement in some of the font testing and feedback22:19
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I'm doped up on pain meds and still trying to figure out if there's any way to avoid using my arms/neck/shoulders for the rest of the night22:20
* hypatia is thinking about building a braille display "emulator" so sighted testers can do QA without knowing braille22:21
JanCcharlie-tca: the new scroll bars might be useful for netbook size displays if you want to save space, but they lack features like the scroll one "page" up/down...22:21
charlie-tcaPendulum: Sorry to hear that. I hope you to feeling better22:21
charlie-tcaJanC: and that does nothing to make them usable22:21
charlie-tcaThey seem to lack the thing called "find the scroll bar easily" too22:22
charlie-tcaI seem to spend a lot of wasted time resizing the window when all I want to do is scroll22:23
JanCwell, if I could enable/disable them with a shortcut, I would use them sometimes, but for some programs they lack a lot in usability22:23
JanCalso teh fact that sometimes they are inside and sometimes outside is confusing22:23
JanCinside or outside the widget that gets scrolled I mean22:24
charlie-tcayup22:25
charlie-tcaone more of the "let's not make it accessible" decisions22:26
charlie-tcaj1mc|away: Onboard docs are at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/OnboardAndMousetweaksAtGDM22:30
macoJanC: wait the pgup/pgdn don't work with them? O_o23:04
JanCmaco: at least I don't know how to do it  ;)23:06
JanCI mean pgup/pgdn by clicking the mouse between the "slider button" and the "arrow buttons"23:06
charlie-tcaI couldn't get anything to work except clicking on the arrows themselves23:07
JanChm, I drag the slider?23:08
JanCyou mean, those are buttons too ?  :P23:08
JanCokay, apparently they are23:08
charlie-tcayou click on that little tiny slider?23:09
charlie-tcaI will try that next time23:09
JanCnu, I thought the thing that pops up was the slider  ;)23:09
charlie-tcaOh23:09
JanCwell, or a grip for the slider23:10
JanCor whatever23:10
charlie-tcaI couldn't find anything there to move except to click the arrows23:10
JanCyou can click & drag it23:10
JanCso mouse down + drag23:10
charlie-tcaI will have to try that, then.23:10
JanCbut I guess we just proved it is difficult to discover how it works23:11
charlie-tcaEverything about unity falls into that area23:12
charlie-tcalol, at least we got more information that we started with23:13
AlanBellthe tiny scrollbars are in now?23:13
AlanBellhow do I turn them on?23:13
charlie-tcaThey were just there in nautilus or docs or something when I was testing the beta2 images23:14
jbichaonly some applications have them by default23:14
AlanBellok not there in nautilus for me23:14
JanCinstall liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-023:15
AlanBellbut I did some unwise recompilation of compiz and broke unity a few times23:15
charlie-tcaI just click on things in the launcher to test 23:15
JanCand then kill & restart nautilus23:15
jbichaAlanBell: you didn't install Gnome 3, did you?23:15
AlanBellno, just compiz trunk23:15
charlie-tcaclicking on things seems to find stuff that makes life miserable or is broken. That's why I test 23:15
AlanBellalthough I think I backed it all out again23:16
jbichaI have the scrollbars in nautilus23:16
* AlanBell has tiny scrollbars23:16
jbichabut if you install the experimental gnome 3 ppa, you'll be back to the old ones23:16
PendulumAlanBell: were they just so tiny you didn't see them?23:16
AlanBellno, I didn't have liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-023:17
AlanBellinstalled that and restarted nautilus and there they are23:17
AlanBellteeny weeny23:17
JanCand if you hover over the orange line, you get some sort of scroll thing23:18
charlie-tcayeah, just try clicking on them when you need a 14pt font to read the screen23:18
AlanBellyup the handle thingie23:18
JanCwhich is apparently both for grab & drag as well as clicking23:19
AlanBellyeah, bit odd the way it stops when you get close to it so you can click on it23:19
AlanBellhowever works fine with compiz enhanced zoom23:19
JanCI think it would be more useful to just have normal scroll bars pop up if you move the mouse near where they should be23:20
AlanBellalmost fine anyhow, there is a bit of mouse lag, but I think that is a performance issue on my VM23:20
AlanBellwhy would that be more useful?23:20
AlanBellmouse wheel scrolling still works23:21
JanCtry it on a nautilus window with 1000 files23:21
* AlanBell goes to /usr/bin23:21
AlanBellworks great23:22
charlie-tcahis eyes and hands work?23:22
JanCI only get the thing to pop up when I hover over the orange part23:22
AlanBellit would be nice to continuously scroll when you click and hold on half the handle23:23
JanCyou can drag if you want  ;)23:23
AlanBellah, maybe I need a narrower nautilus window23:23
charlie-tcaJanC: that's the problem I have. I have problems just finding the orange part23:24
AlanBellI am finding the orange bar doesn't go totally small23:24
AlanBellit has a minimum height23:24
JanCcharlie-tca: if it would pop up if you hover over the whole area where normally the scrollbar would be, wouldn't that be more useful?23:24
charlie-tcahow big is yours, mine was aproximately twice as high as it was wide23:24
charlie-tcaJanC: yes23:25
charlie-tcaThat would be fantastic23:25
AlanBelllooks like the orange bar doesn't get smaller than half the height of the grab handle23:25
JanCAlanBell: it's about 1/40th of the screen height  ;)23:25
JanCmaybe less of an issue on a netbook of course23:26
AlanBellyes, not saying that the minimum height is good, just that if it was fully in proportion to the files in the list it should be less than a pixel high I should think!23:26
JanCI also have the problem that I often move too far when I need it etc.23:26
charlie-tcaI guess I can only wish for hands and eyes that can use that thing. In the meantime, I will not be able to use unity23:27
JanCor when your window is near the border of the screen it pops up on the inside, so you have to move your mouse to the border and then back23:27
JanCbut otherwise you have to move to the border of the window and then further23:28
AlanBellcharlie-tca: uninstall liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 should get back to normal23:28
charlie-tcaand if it ever goes further than Ubuntu, those will be other systems I can't use23:28
JanCcharlie-tca: just disable that library  ;)23:28
JanCs/disable/remove/23:28
AlanBellpersonally I think this is a decent first effort that needs some refinement23:30
AlanBellso how close to you have to be to the orange thing for the handles to come up23:31
AlanBellinteresting focus follows mouse effect too23:32
AlanBellif the window doesn't have focus and the mouse cursor isn't over it then it fades to a light grey23:33
AlanBellwhich is almost invisible23:33
AlanBellhowever that isn't neccessarily a bad thing in this situation, it is supposed to be low contrast23:33
JanCit als ojust disappears if you wait too long to use it  ;)23:33
AlanBellreally?23:34
AlanBellthere is an area to the left of the orange bar that makes the grab handle appear, nothing below or above23:35
AlanBellJanC: oh, I see what you mean23:37
AlanBellyeah, not sure I like that23:38
AlanBellso where are the preferences for that then?23:39
AlanBellcan you make the handles bigger, and the orange bar minimum size bigger?23:39
JanCwasn't it pushed into the repositories about a month after everybody else was forbidden to make UI changes or so?   ;)23:40
AlanBellthat is traditional though23:40
AlanBellI can arguably construct a bug situation23:43
AlanBellI had orca (an always-on-top window) to the right of nautilus23:43
AlanBellso the grab handles appeared under orca23:43
JanCheh, good point23:43
AlanBellcan do the same with two nautilus windows side by side with the one on the right set to always on top23:44
JanCor whatever window-set-on-top23:44
JanCi suppose23:44
AlanBellof course23:44
AlanBellit is a bit of a contrived scenario23:45
JanCanyway, IMO it's not very professional to push untested UI changes in at a point when they can't be tested or fixed anymore...23:47
JanCthere is a reason why those freezes exist...23:47
charlie-tcamust have been the design team, then. They get away with that each release23:47
AlanBellit was sabdfled early this month http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/61523:48
JanCI know23:48
JanCthat doesn't make it professional  ;)23:49
Pendulum tbh, I suspect a lot of the late UI changes that look like they're from the design team are more sabdfl23:49
JanCPendulum: sabdfl is part of the design team23:49
JanCbut yeah, without his approval they probably couldn't do that23:50
* AlanBell is getting a late UI change to onboard through so isn't complaining too hard23:50
JanCAlanBell: freeze exceptions exist for a reason23:50
JanCe.g. to *fix* something23:51
JanCnot to break things  ;)23:51
JanC(and nautilus has slightly more users than onboard too)23:51
AlanBellI do agree23:52
AlanBellI think the font last release was an equally huge and breakage prone thing to do23:52
JanCwell, that was at least tested somewhat23:53
AlanBellheh, no23:53
PendulumJanC: I mean that he is the design team member who wants them in23:53
AlanBellpeople looked at the glyphs and changed documents to the font23:53
AlanBellthey didn't change the default UI font to Ubuntu and look at the impact on applications23:54
JanCAlanBell: I was using it as my default font and I'm sure many others did23:54
JanCwell, many of those who tested23:54
AlanBellbug 62962223:56
ubot2Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu-font-family-sources "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.69 in Maverick (10.10)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/62962223:56

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!