[00:09] <hajour1> goodnight all i go give back undifined his pc XD
[15:54] <AlanBell> bug 554057
[15:54] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 554057 in fglrx-installer "fglrxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion() (dup-of: 546885)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554057
[15:54] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 546885 in fglrx-installer "glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/546885
[15:55] <AlanBell> gnome bug 554057
[15:55] <ubot2> Gnome bug 554057 in menu "Calling gtk_menu_shell_select_item() on GtkMenuBar can break grabs (and create big accessibility issues)" [Major,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554057
[18:56] <AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/
[18:56] <AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/onboard/branding/+merge/58715
[21:42] <AlanBell> TheMuso: charlie-tca Pendulum could you please add a comment to bug 768583 to confirm that the contrasts of my cosmetic onboard adjustments are ok
[21:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/768583
[21:42] <AlanBell> sladen is helping to get this through
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Is there any way to get the damn thing in the menu?
[21:44] <charlie-tca> It is really ironic that we can get anything done except the stuff that really matters to accessibility use
[21:44] <AlanBell> probably not for Natty :(
[21:45] <charlie-tca> I read that as never, actually. 
[21:45] <AlanBell> however making it pretty and getting the design team to feel it is part of their platform is my strategy for getting it in the menu
[21:46] <AlanBell> however I am not going to be able to achieve step 2 of my strategy in the next week
[21:47] <charlie-tca> Considering it has waited for, what, about three years now, I guess another 6 months is okay
[21:47] <maco> if sladen's on it, it'll probably get done though
[21:48] <AlanBell> yup
[21:48] <maco> i reported a bug about illegibility of £ at small sizes, and he argued with a designer for a few days on it
[21:48] <maco> (designer relented!)
[21:48] <AlanBell> sladen is this minute *excited* about onboard, he wants the ubuntu mono font on it
[21:48] <AlanBell> he is on the design team
[21:49] <AlanBell> he wants onboard to be part of the branding effort of the design team
[21:49] <maco> i mean he argued with one of those contracted designers that's actually making the font
[21:49] <AlanBell> Dalton Maag
[21:49] <maco> yeah them
[21:50] <AlanBell> so yeah, I love it when a plan comes together
[21:52] <charlie-tca> It is going to be pink and orange?
[21:54] <AlanBell> "light aubergine"
[21:54] <AlanBell> ok, yeah, pink
[21:54] <charlie-tca> scares me. After the solitare branding change, I had to remove the branding package, since the faded cards become too hard on the eyes
[21:54] <AlanBell> I made the main keycaps have the most contrast
[21:54] <AlanBell> followed by the numbers
[21:55] <AlanBell> shift and space have bolder colours because you don't need contrast
[21:55] <AlanBell> all it has to be right now is not worse than the old colours from a contrast perspective
[21:56] <AlanBell> if you sign off that bug that it is OK and we get it into Natty then it can be made really pretty by proper designers during the Oneiric cycle
[21:57] <charlie-tca> Okay, I gave you a good comment on it
[21:58] <charlie-tca> but if the cards is the work of those designers, it would be better if they leave this alone
[21:58] <AlanBell> heh
[21:58] <charlie-tca> bug 754775
[21:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 754775 in gnome-games "New branding on aisleriot solitaire cards is faded" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/754775
[21:59] <charlie-tca> If that is the best they can do, they seriously need to leave onboard alone.
[22:00] <AlanBell> that odd grey curve thing?
[22:00] <charlie-tca> No, that is the only part of the card with good contrast
[22:01] <charlie-tca> the entire top two-thirds of the card fades
[22:02] <charlie-tca> The fade does not show up right in the screenshot. Trying to play, I can not hardly see anything outside the gray
[22:09] <AlanBell> yeah, I think I see what you mean, on picture cards
[22:09] <AlanBell> I can barely see the fade on regular cards
[22:10] <charlie-tca> It shows bad on them here
[22:10] <charlie-tca> I have used the ubuntu branding since they came up with it, but I can not use it any more.
[22:12] <j1mc> charlie-tca: what problems is the branding causing you?
[22:12] <charlie-tca> Can not read the suit nor the designator of the cards
[22:13] <j1mc> ah
[22:13] <charlie-tca> I can faded red or faded black
[22:13] <charlie-tca> I can see faded red or faded black
[22:13] <j1mc> charlie-tca: btw, i will be at UDS. would be good to meet up and go over docs / a11y stuff if you have time.
[22:13] <charlie-tca> It actually looks like the cards are a very old, worn deck
[22:14] <charlie-tca> j1mc: great! I will look forward to that
[22:14] <j1mc> i don't have much experience with a11y, and want to make sure docs work ok with a11y features. 
[22:15] <charlie-tca> Okay, we can do that.
[22:15] <charlie-tca> I seem to be gaining experience
[22:15] <j1mc> if there are other a11y people who will be there, i can talk with them, too. 
[22:16] <j1mc> i just know you a little better from xubuntu stuff is all.  :)
[22:16] <charlie-tca> No problem. Hajour should be there, and pleia2 and maco 
[22:16] <Pendulum> and Cher703
[22:17] <Pendulum> (she wants to do a lot more a11y this cycle)
[22:17] <charlie-tca> Great!
[22:17] <charlie-tca> So, who do we have to convince that the new scroll bars are bad, too?
[22:17] <Pendulum> AlanBell: commented (short and to the point, but really you don't want me rambling at the moment because who knows what would have happened)
[22:18] <JanC> maco / AlanBell : sladen worked as a programmer for a company that made DTP / typesetting software some time in the past, so he knows a thing about fonts & design  ☺
[22:18] <charlie-tca> You get to find a very small orangeish bars, about 1 x 2 pixel to click on now to get a scroll bar to use
[22:18] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: that's why I rambled here. :-)
[22:19] <AlanBell> JanC: yeah I know, I had a bit of involvement in some of the font testing and feedback
[22:20] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I'm doped up on pain meds and still trying to figure out if there's any way to avoid using my arms/neck/shoulders for the rest of the night
[22:21]  * hypatia is thinking about building a braille display "emulator" so sighted testers can do QA without knowing braille
[22:21] <JanC> charlie-tca: the new scroll bars might be useful for netbook size displays if you want to save space, but they lack features like the scroll one "page" up/down...
[22:21] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: Sorry to hear that. I hope you to feeling better
[22:21] <charlie-tca> JanC: and that does nothing to make them usable
[22:22] <charlie-tca> They seem to lack the thing called "find the scroll bar easily" too
[22:23] <charlie-tca> I seem to spend a lot of wasted time resizing the window when all I want to do is scroll
[22:23] <JanC> well, if I could enable/disable them with a shortcut, I would use them sometimes, but for some programs they lack a lot in usability
[22:23] <JanC> also teh fact that sometimes they are inside and sometimes outside is confusing
[22:24] <JanC> inside or outside the widget that gets scrolled I mean
[22:25] <charlie-tca> yup
[22:26] <charlie-tca> one more of the "let's not make it accessible" decisions
[22:30] <charlie-tca> j1mc|away: Onboard docs are at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/OnboardAndMousetweaksAtGDM
[23:04] <maco> JanC: wait the pgup/pgdn don't work with them? O_o
[23:06] <JanC> maco: at least I don't know how to do it  ;)
[23:06] <JanC> I mean pgup/pgdn by clicking the mouse between the "slider button" and the "arrow buttons"
[23:07] <charlie-tca> I couldn't get anything to work except clicking on the arrows themselves
[23:08] <JanC> hm, I drag the slider?
[23:08] <JanC> you mean, those are buttons too ?  :P
[23:08] <JanC> okay, apparently they are
[23:09] <charlie-tca> you click on that little tiny slider?
[23:09] <charlie-tca> I will try that next time
[23:09] <JanC> nu, I thought the thing that pops up was the slider  ;)
[23:09] <charlie-tca> Oh
[23:10] <JanC> well, or a grip for the slider
[23:10] <JanC> or whatever
[23:10] <charlie-tca> I couldn't find anything there to move except to click the arrows
[23:10] <JanC> you can click & drag it
[23:10] <JanC> so mouse down + drag
[23:10] <charlie-tca> I will have to try that, then.
[23:11] <JanC> but I guess we just proved it is difficult to discover how it works
[23:12] <charlie-tca> Everything about unity falls into that area
[23:13] <charlie-tca> lol, at least we got more information that we started with
[23:13] <AlanBell> the tiny scrollbars are in now?
[23:13] <AlanBell> how do I turn them on?
[23:14] <charlie-tca> They were just there in nautilus or docs or something when I was testing the beta2 images
[23:14] <jbicha> only some applications have them by default
[23:14] <AlanBell> ok not there in nautilus for me
[23:15] <JanC> install liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0
[23:15] <AlanBell> but I did some unwise recompilation of compiz and broke unity a few times
[23:15] <charlie-tca> I just click on things in the launcher to test 
[23:15] <JanC> and then kill & restart nautilus
[23:15] <jbicha> AlanBell: you didn't install Gnome 3, did you?
[23:15] <AlanBell> no, just compiz trunk
[23:15] <charlie-tca> clicking on things seems to find stuff that makes life miserable or is broken. That's why I test 
[23:16] <AlanBell> although I think I backed it all out again
[23:16] <jbicha> I have the scrollbars in nautilus
[23:16]  * AlanBell has tiny scrollbars
[23:16] <jbicha> but if you install the experimental gnome 3 ppa, you'll be back to the old ones
[23:16] <Pendulum> AlanBell: were they just so tiny you didn't see them?
[23:17] <AlanBell> no, I didn't have liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0
[23:17] <AlanBell> installed that and restarted nautilus and there they are
[23:17] <AlanBell> teeny weeny
[23:18] <JanC> and if you hover over the orange line, you get some sort of scroll thing
[23:18] <charlie-tca> yeah, just try clicking on them when you need a 14pt font to read the screen
[23:18] <AlanBell> yup the handle thingie
[23:19] <JanC> which is apparently both for grab & drag as well as clicking
[23:19] <AlanBell> yeah, bit odd the way it stops when you get close to it so you can click on it
[23:19] <AlanBell> however works fine with compiz enhanced zoom
[23:20] <JanC> I think it would be more useful to just have normal scroll bars pop up if you move the mouse near where they should be
[23:20] <AlanBell> almost fine anyhow, there is a bit of mouse lag, but I think that is a performance issue on my VM
[23:20] <AlanBell> why would that be more useful?
[23:21] <AlanBell> mouse wheel scrolling still works
[23:21] <JanC> try it on a nautilus window with 1000 files
[23:21]  * AlanBell goes to /usr/bin
[23:22] <AlanBell> works great
[23:22] <charlie-tca> his eyes and hands work?
[23:22] <JanC> I only get the thing to pop up when I hover over the orange part
[23:23] <AlanBell> it would be nice to continuously scroll when you click and hold on half the handle
[23:23] <JanC> you can drag if you want  ;)
[23:23] <AlanBell> ah, maybe I need a narrower nautilus window
[23:24] <charlie-tca> JanC: that's the problem I have. I have problems just finding the orange part
[23:24] <AlanBell> I am finding the orange bar doesn't go totally small
[23:24] <AlanBell> it has a minimum height
[23:24] <JanC> charlie-tca: if it would pop up if you hover over the whole area where normally the scrollbar would be, wouldn't that be more useful?
[23:24] <charlie-tca> how big is yours, mine was aproximately twice as high as it was wide
[23:25] <charlie-tca> JanC: yes
[23:25] <charlie-tca> That would be fantastic
[23:25] <AlanBell> looks like the orange bar doesn't get smaller than half the height of the grab handle
[23:25] <JanC> AlanBell: it's about 1/40th of the screen height  ;)
[23:26] <JanC> maybe less of an issue on a netbook of course
[23:26] <AlanBell> yes, not saying that the minimum height is good, just that if it was fully in proportion to the files in the list it should be less than a pixel high I should think!
[23:26] <JanC> I also have the problem that I often move too far when I need it etc.
[23:27] <charlie-tca> I guess I can only wish for hands and eyes that can use that thing. In the meantime, I will not be able to use unity
[23:27] <JanC> or when your window is near the border of the screen it pops up on the inside, so you have to move your mouse to the border and then back
[23:28] <JanC> but otherwise you have to move to the border of the window and then further
[23:28] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: uninstall liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 should get back to normal
[23:28] <charlie-tca> and if it ever goes further than Ubuntu, those will be other systems I can't use
[23:28] <JanC> charlie-tca: just disable that library  ;)
[23:28] <JanC> s/disable/remove/
[23:30] <AlanBell> personally I think this is a decent first effort that needs some refinement
[23:31] <AlanBell> so how close to you have to be to the orange thing for the handles to come up
[23:32] <AlanBell> interesting focus follows mouse effect too
[23:33] <AlanBell> if the window doesn't have focus and the mouse cursor isn't over it then it fades to a light grey
[23:33] <AlanBell> which is almost invisible
[23:33] <AlanBell> however that isn't neccessarily a bad thing in this situation, it is supposed to be low contrast
[23:33] <JanC> it als ojust disappears if you wait too long to use it  ;)
[23:34] <AlanBell> really?
[23:35] <AlanBell> there is an area to the left of the orange bar that makes the grab handle appear, nothing below or above
[23:37] <AlanBell> JanC: oh, I see what you mean
[23:38] <AlanBell> yeah, not sure I like that
[23:39] <AlanBell> so where are the preferences for that then?
[23:39] <AlanBell> can you make the handles bigger, and the orange bar minimum size bigger?
[23:40] <JanC> wasn't it pushed into the repositories about a month after everybody else was forbidden to make UI changes or so?   ;)
[23:40] <AlanBell> that is traditional though
[23:43] <AlanBell> I can arguably construct a bug situation
[23:43] <AlanBell> I had orca (an always-on-top window) to the right of nautilus
[23:43] <AlanBell> so the grab handles appeared under orca
[23:43] <JanC> heh, good point
[23:44] <AlanBell> can do the same with two nautilus windows side by side with the one on the right set to always on top
[23:44] <JanC> or whatever window-set-on-top
[23:44] <JanC> i suppose
[23:44] <AlanBell> of course
[23:45] <AlanBell> it is a bit of a contrived scenario
[23:47] <JanC> anyway, IMO it's not very professional to push untested UI changes in at a point when they can't be tested or fixed anymore...
[23:47] <JanC> there is a reason why those freezes exist...
[23:47] <charlie-tca> must have been the design team, then. They get away with that each release
[23:48] <AlanBell> it was sabdfled early this month http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/615
[23:48] <JanC> I know
[23:49] <JanC> that doesn't make it professional  ;)
[23:49] <Pendulum>  tbh, I suspect a lot of the late UI changes that look like they're from the design team are more sabdfl
[23:49] <JanC> Pendulum: sabdfl is part of the design team
[23:50] <JanC> but yeah, without his approval they probably couldn't do that
[23:50]  * AlanBell is getting a late UI change to onboard through so isn't complaining too hard
[23:50] <JanC> AlanBell: freeze exceptions exist for a reason
[23:51] <JanC> e.g. to *fix* something
[23:51] <JanC> not to break things  ;)
[23:51] <JanC> (and nautilus has slightly more users than onboard too)
[23:52] <AlanBell> I do agree
[23:52] <AlanBell> I think the font last release was an equally huge and breakage prone thing to do
[23:53] <JanC> well, that was at least tested somewhat
[23:53] <AlanBell> heh, no
[23:53] <Pendulum> JanC: I mean that he is the design team member who wants them in
[23:53] <AlanBell> people looked at the glyphs and changed documents to the font
[23:54] <AlanBell> they didn't change the default UI font to Ubuntu and look at the impact on applications
[23:54] <JanC> AlanBell: I was using it as my default font and I'm sure many others did
[23:54] <JanC> well, many of those who tested
[23:56] <AlanBell> bug 629622
[23:56] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu-font-family-sources "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.69 in Maverick (10.10)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622