[00:09] goodnight all i go give back undifined his pc XD === hajour1 is now known as UndiFineD === API is now known as apinheiro === apinheiro is now known as apinheiro_lunch === apinheiro_lunch is now known as apinheiro === zippo^ is now known as erkan^ [15:54] bug 554057 [15:54] Launchpad bug 554057 in fglrx-installer "fglrxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion() (dup-of: 546885)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554057 [15:54] Launchpad bug 546885 in fglrx-installer "glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in XF86DRIQueryVersion()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/546885 [15:55] gnome bug 554057 [15:55] Gnome bug 554057 in menu "Calling gtk_menu_shell_select_item() on GtkMenuBar can break grabs (and create big accessibility issues)" [Major,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554057 === JasonO_ is now known as JasonO === JasonO_ is now known as JasonO === UndiFineD is now known as hajour === hajour is now known as hajour1 [18:56] http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/ [18:56] https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/onboard/branding/+merge/58715 [21:42] TheMuso: charlie-tca Pendulum could you please add a comment to bug 768583 to confirm that the contrasts of my cosmetic onboard adjustments are ok [21:42] Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/768583 [21:42] sladen is helping to get this through [21:43] Is there any way to get the damn thing in the menu? [21:44] It is really ironic that we can get anything done except the stuff that really matters to accessibility use [21:44] probably not for Natty :( [21:45] I read that as never, actually. [21:45] however making it pretty and getting the design team to feel it is part of their platform is my strategy for getting it in the menu [21:46] however I am not going to be able to achieve step 2 of my strategy in the next week [21:47] Considering it has waited for, what, about three years now, I guess another 6 months is okay [21:47] if sladen's on it, it'll probably get done though [21:48] yup [21:48] i reported a bug about illegibility of £ at small sizes, and he argued with a designer for a few days on it [21:48] (designer relented!) [21:48] sladen is this minute *excited* about onboard, he wants the ubuntu mono font on it [21:48] he is on the design team [21:49] he wants onboard to be part of the branding effort of the design team [21:49] i mean he argued with one of those contracted designers that's actually making the font [21:49] Dalton Maag [21:49] yeah them [21:50] so yeah, I love it when a plan comes together [21:52] It is going to be pink and orange? [21:54] "light aubergine" [21:54] ok, yeah, pink [21:54] scares me. After the solitare branding change, I had to remove the branding package, since the faded cards become too hard on the eyes [21:54] I made the main keycaps have the most contrast [21:54] followed by the numbers [21:55] shift and space have bolder colours because you don't need contrast [21:55] all it has to be right now is not worse than the old colours from a contrast perspective [21:56] if you sign off that bug that it is OK and we get it into Natty then it can be made really pretty by proper designers during the Oneiric cycle [21:57] Okay, I gave you a good comment on it [21:58] but if the cards is the work of those designers, it would be better if they leave this alone [21:58] heh [21:58] bug 754775 [21:58] Launchpad bug 754775 in gnome-games "New branding on aisleriot solitaire cards is faded" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/754775 [21:59] If that is the best they can do, they seriously need to leave onboard alone. [22:00] that odd grey curve thing? [22:00] No, that is the only part of the card with good contrast [22:01] the entire top two-thirds of the card fades [22:02] The fade does not show up right in the screenshot. Trying to play, I can not hardly see anything outside the gray [22:09] yeah, I think I see what you mean, on picture cards [22:09] I can barely see the fade on regular cards [22:10] It shows bad on them here [22:10] I have used the ubuntu branding since they came up with it, but I can not use it any more. [22:12] charlie-tca: what problems is the branding causing you? [22:12] Can not read the suit nor the designator of the cards [22:13] ah [22:13] I can faded red or faded black [22:13] I can see faded red or faded black [22:13] charlie-tca: btw, i will be at UDS. would be good to meet up and go over docs / a11y stuff if you have time. [22:13] It actually looks like the cards are a very old, worn deck [22:14] j1mc: great! I will look forward to that [22:14] i don't have much experience with a11y, and want to make sure docs work ok with a11y features. [22:15] Okay, we can do that. [22:15] I seem to be gaining experience [22:15] if there are other a11y people who will be there, i can talk with them, too. [22:16] i just know you a little better from xubuntu stuff is all. :) === j1mc is now known as j1mc|away [22:16] No problem. Hajour should be there, and pleia2 and maco [22:16] and Cher703 [22:17] (she wants to do a lot more a11y this cycle) [22:17] Great! [22:17] So, who do we have to convince that the new scroll bars are bad, too? [22:17] AlanBell: commented (short and to the point, but really you don't want me rambling at the moment because who knows what would have happened) [22:18] maco / AlanBell : sladen worked as a programmer for a company that made DTP / typesetting software some time in the past, so he knows a thing about fonts & design ☺ [22:18] You get to find a very small orangeish bars, about 1 x 2 pixel to click on now to get a scroll bar to use [22:18] Pendulum: that's why I rambled here. :-) [22:19] JanC: yeah I know, I had a bit of involvement in some of the font testing and feedback [22:20] charlie-tca: I'm doped up on pain meds and still trying to figure out if there's any way to avoid using my arms/neck/shoulders for the rest of the night [22:21] * hypatia is thinking about building a braille display "emulator" so sighted testers can do QA without knowing braille [22:21] charlie-tca: the new scroll bars might be useful for netbook size displays if you want to save space, but they lack features like the scroll one "page" up/down... [22:21] Pendulum: Sorry to hear that. I hope you to feeling better [22:21] JanC: and that does nothing to make them usable [22:22] They seem to lack the thing called "find the scroll bar easily" too [22:23] I seem to spend a lot of wasted time resizing the window when all I want to do is scroll [22:23] well, if I could enable/disable them with a shortcut, I would use them sometimes, but for some programs they lack a lot in usability [22:23] also teh fact that sometimes they are inside and sometimes outside is confusing [22:24] inside or outside the widget that gets scrolled I mean [22:25] yup [22:26] one more of the "let's not make it accessible" decisions [22:30] j1mc|away: Onboard docs are at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/OnboardAndMousetweaksAtGDM [23:04] JanC: wait the pgup/pgdn don't work with them? O_o [23:06] maco: at least I don't know how to do it ;) [23:06] I mean pgup/pgdn by clicking the mouse between the "slider button" and the "arrow buttons" [23:07] I couldn't get anything to work except clicking on the arrows themselves [23:08] hm, I drag the slider? [23:08] you mean, those are buttons too ? :P [23:08] okay, apparently they are [23:09] you click on that little tiny slider? [23:09] I will try that next time [23:09] nu, I thought the thing that pops up was the slider ;) [23:09] Oh [23:10] well, or a grip for the slider [23:10] or whatever [23:10] I couldn't find anything there to move except to click the arrows [23:10] you can click & drag it [23:10] so mouse down + drag [23:10] I will have to try that, then. [23:11] but I guess we just proved it is difficult to discover how it works [23:12] Everything about unity falls into that area [23:13] lol, at least we got more information that we started with [23:13] the tiny scrollbars are in now? [23:13] how do I turn them on? [23:14] They were just there in nautilus or docs or something when I was testing the beta2 images [23:14] only some applications have them by default [23:14] ok not there in nautilus for me [23:15] install liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 [23:15] but I did some unwise recompilation of compiz and broke unity a few times [23:15] I just click on things in the launcher to test [23:15] and then kill & restart nautilus [23:15] AlanBell: you didn't install Gnome 3, did you? [23:15] no, just compiz trunk [23:15] clicking on things seems to find stuff that makes life miserable or is broken. That's why I test [23:16] although I think I backed it all out again [23:16] I have the scrollbars in nautilus [23:16] * AlanBell has tiny scrollbars [23:16] but if you install the experimental gnome 3 ppa, you'll be back to the old ones [23:16] AlanBell: were they just so tiny you didn't see them? [23:17] no, I didn't have liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 [23:17] installed that and restarted nautilus and there they are [23:17] teeny weeny [23:18] and if you hover over the orange line, you get some sort of scroll thing [23:18] yeah, just try clicking on them when you need a 14pt font to read the screen [23:18] yup the handle thingie [23:19] which is apparently both for grab & drag as well as clicking [23:19] yeah, bit odd the way it stops when you get close to it so you can click on it [23:19] however works fine with compiz enhanced zoom [23:20] I think it would be more useful to just have normal scroll bars pop up if you move the mouse near where they should be [23:20] almost fine anyhow, there is a bit of mouse lag, but I think that is a performance issue on my VM [23:20] why would that be more useful? [23:21] mouse wheel scrolling still works [23:21] try it on a nautilus window with 1000 files [23:21] * AlanBell goes to /usr/bin [23:22] works great [23:22] his eyes and hands work? [23:22] I only get the thing to pop up when I hover over the orange part [23:23] it would be nice to continuously scroll when you click and hold on half the handle [23:23] you can drag if you want ;) [23:23] ah, maybe I need a narrower nautilus window [23:24] JanC: that's the problem I have. I have problems just finding the orange part [23:24] I am finding the orange bar doesn't go totally small [23:24] it has a minimum height [23:24] charlie-tca: if it would pop up if you hover over the whole area where normally the scrollbar would be, wouldn't that be more useful? [23:24] how big is yours, mine was aproximately twice as high as it was wide [23:25] JanC: yes [23:25] That would be fantastic [23:25] looks like the orange bar doesn't get smaller than half the height of the grab handle [23:25] AlanBell: it's about 1/40th of the screen height ;) [23:26] maybe less of an issue on a netbook of course [23:26] yes, not saying that the minimum height is good, just that if it was fully in proportion to the files in the list it should be less than a pixel high I should think! [23:26] I also have the problem that I often move too far when I need it etc. [23:27] I guess I can only wish for hands and eyes that can use that thing. In the meantime, I will not be able to use unity [23:27] or when your window is near the border of the screen it pops up on the inside, so you have to move your mouse to the border and then back [23:28] but otherwise you have to move to the border of the window and then further [23:28] charlie-tca: uninstall liboverlay-scrollbar-0.1-0 should get back to normal [23:28] and if it ever goes further than Ubuntu, those will be other systems I can't use [23:28] charlie-tca: just disable that library ;) [23:28] s/disable/remove/ [23:30] personally I think this is a decent first effort that needs some refinement [23:31] so how close to you have to be to the orange thing for the handles to come up [23:32] interesting focus follows mouse effect too [23:33] if the window doesn't have focus and the mouse cursor isn't over it then it fades to a light grey [23:33] which is almost invisible [23:33] however that isn't neccessarily a bad thing in this situation, it is supposed to be low contrast [23:33] it als ojust disappears if you wait too long to use it ;) [23:34] really? [23:35] there is an area to the left of the orange bar that makes the grab handle appear, nothing below or above [23:37] JanC: oh, I see what you mean [23:38] yeah, not sure I like that [23:39] so where are the preferences for that then? [23:39] can you make the handles bigger, and the orange bar minimum size bigger? [23:40] wasn't it pushed into the repositories about a month after everybody else was forbidden to make UI changes or so? ;) [23:40] that is traditional though [23:43] I can arguably construct a bug situation [23:43] I had orca (an always-on-top window) to the right of nautilus [23:43] so the grab handles appeared under orca [23:43] heh, good point [23:44] can do the same with two nautilus windows side by side with the one on the right set to always on top [23:44] or whatever window-set-on-top [23:44] i suppose [23:44] of course [23:45] it is a bit of a contrived scenario [23:47] anyway, IMO it's not very professional to push untested UI changes in at a point when they can't be tested or fixed anymore... [23:47] there is a reason why those freezes exist... [23:47] must have been the design team, then. They get away with that each release [23:48] it was sabdfled early this month http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/615 [23:48] I know [23:49] that doesn't make it professional ;) [23:49] tbh, I suspect a lot of the late UI changes that look like they're from the design team are more sabdfl [23:49] Pendulum: sabdfl is part of the design team [23:50] but yeah, without his approval they probably couldn't do that [23:50] * AlanBell is getting a late UI change to onboard through so isn't complaining too hard [23:50] AlanBell: freeze exceptions exist for a reason [23:51] e.g. to *fix* something [23:51] not to break things ;) [23:51] (and nautilus has slightly more users than onboard too) [23:52] I do agree [23:52] I think the font last release was an equally huge and breakage prone thing to do [23:53] well, that was at least tested somewhat [23:53] heh, no [23:53] JanC: I mean that he is the design team member who wants them in [23:53] people looked at the glyphs and changed documents to the font [23:54] they didn't change the default UI font to Ubuntu and look at the impact on applications [23:54] AlanBell: I was using it as my default font and I'm sure many others did [23:54] well, many of those who tested [23:56] bug 629622 [23:56] Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu-font-family-sources "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.69 in Maverick (10.10)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622