[02:27] <jbicha_> shaunm: are you around?
[03:06] <jbicha_> oh, nm I just found https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647713 and was wondering what shaunm was doing on my computer
[03:06] <ubot2> Gnome bug 647713 in DocBook "Hardcoded docbook dtd gives I/O warnings" [Critical,Resolved: fixed]
[04:34] <shaunm> jbicha_: it's a feature. everybody is now expected to be called shaunm
[04:34] <shaunm> it's part of my evil plan to take over the world
[04:34] <shaunm> using, um, documentation
[04:34] <shaunm> but the plan is reeeeeally evil, so it'll probably work
[04:35] <jbicha_> lol
[04:36] <jbicha_> so, 11 possible indicators not counting appmenu in the default install
[04:37] <jbicha_> 12
[04:37] <jbicha_> I put 8 in the guide, and there's drop privileges, plus tomboy, transmission, & accessibility can be activated
[04:38] <jbicha_> that's an impressive number for trying to reduce clutter :-)
[07:48] <mdke> jbicha_: I added a tool yesterday to check validity, you can run ./check_validity.sh name-of-file.page in the gnome-help directory
[07:48] <mdke> or rather, in the gnome-help/C directory
[07:49] <mdke> shaunm: thanks for fixing all those errors - brilliant
[07:53] <mdke> jbicha_: sorry, the script is actually ./check_validation.sh
[07:58] <mdke> shaunm: how difficult is it to build html from mallard using your xsl without installing yelp-tools? could it be done using xsltproc in a simple/simplish makefile?
[08:15] <jbicha_> mdke: um, your scrpt assumes I have that .rng file in the same place as you
[08:15] <jbicha_> but it's a nice idea
[08:22] <jbicha_> mdke: just use /usr/share/xml/mallard/1.0/mallard.rng instead
[08:28] <mdke> jbicha_: no, the rng file is actually added to the bzr repo
[08:29] <mdke> jbicha_: and it is modified so I can't use the one you refer to
[08:29] <jbicha_> oh there it is, cool
[08:30] <jbicha_> I found a 13th indicator in the default install, keyboard layouts
[08:33] <jbicha_> does anyone have a fingerprint reader? the fingerprint reader page needs updated or stubbed
[08:36] <mdke> I have one. But I've never used it
[08:43] <mdke> jbicha_: just looking at your clock patch. One small comment - avoid changing line breaks only if you are not making any other change to a particular section. Adding line breaks will make it more difficult to merge from upstream.
[08:43] <mdke> (if it happens to be a document which we might want to sync with upstream in the future)
[08:44] <mdke> it's good practice to use line breaks when writing, though
[08:49] <jbicha_> ok, I know upstream was going to be adding line breaks but good point as they probably won't be at the same places
[08:52] <mdke> jbicha_: another comment - I see that you've put the info on changing timezone into clock-set.page, and removed it from clock-timezone.page. Isn't it better to have it in the latter place and use the former for changing the time?
[08:54] <jbicha_> I believe when users want to change the time, they actually want to change the timezone or have the time set automatically
[08:55] <jbicha_> showing alternate timezones is an extra feature and can be on its own page
[08:56] <mdke> ok, I would tend to put them on the same page. gtg for now, I'll finish reviewing later
[09:19] <peppe84> Hi. I have perform a dist-upgrade today on natty. I see the changelog of ubuntu-docs and it include libreoffice and banshee. But if I open yelp I see Oo.org and Rhytmbox. This is normal or we need to open a bug?
[09:21] <jbicha_> peppe84: Press Ctrl+L in your Help browser and tell us what the page name is
[09:22] <jbicha_> hm, it does look like the Classic help has not been fully updated
[09:23] <peppe84> jbicha_, hi. is ghelp:office and music
[09:24] <jbicha_> Since we have only a few people and not much time before release, we've been mostly working to update the new help
[09:25] <peppe84> this is right. If you would I can open a bug in order to work on this later and with calm ;-)
[09:26] <jbicha_> I think it's a known issue so we don't necessarily need a bug but we do accept patches from anyone :-)
[09:29] <peppe84> no idea. revision 96 contain this edit on office.xml and music.xml http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/natty/ubuntu-docs/natty/revision/97#office/C/office.xml
[09:34] <jbicha_> peppe84: you're right, I'm trying to figure out why the last update didn't work right
[09:46] <jbicha_> peppe84: what is your system locale?
[09:47] <peppe84> uhm. I use italian lang-pack. On your english system is right?
[09:48] <jbicha_> it is correct in C, which is basically US English
[09:48] <jbicha_> UK English, which I'm using for fun, has the old OpenOffice/Rhythmbox
[09:49] <jbicha_> the other language packs haven't been updated and since they have Classic help translated
[09:49] <jbicha_> it's broken there
[09:50] <peppe84> oh
[09:53] <jbicha_> I sent an email to the ubuntu-doc list so we definitely know about the issue, thank you!
[09:59] <peppe84> :-)
[10:46] <mdke> peppe84: when the langpacks are updated you will see the new strings in English
[10:46] <mdke> translated help is not included in the ubuntu-docs package
[10:47] <mdke> eventually, once the translations have been imported, and new langpacks generated, you will see the translated strings
[10:47] <mdke> but that will take some weeks
[10:49] <mdke> jbicha_: I'll merge your branch but if you could correct the validity errors in unity-appmenu-intro.page and clock-calendar.page in your next commit, that would be helpful - let me know and I'll merge it again then
[10:49] <mdke> jbicha_: good work though
[10:54] <peppe84> I'll do :-)
[12:06] <jbicha_> mdke: ok, it passes validation now
[14:57] <Rocket2DMn> good morning
[14:58] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, yesterday you uploaded a build for gnome-user-docs right? What about ubuntu-docs?
[14:59] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: day before yesterday I think
[15:00] <Rocket2DMn> awesome
[15:00] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you know what needs to be dne for bug for bug 734958
[15:00] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 734958 in ubuntu-docs "switching not translatable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734958
[15:01] <duanedesign> hello Rocket2DMn
[15:01] <Rocket2DMn> hey duanedesign , what's kickin man?
[15:03] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: it's almost not worth fixing - we don't include the switching guide in ubuntu-docs (even in Lucid - it is only available on the website) and translators are pretty unlikely to look at Lucid stuff now
[15:04] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: in order to fix it we would need to ask the Launchpad Translation admins to upload the template manually somewhere as it doesn't appear in the ubuntu-docs package
[15:08] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, i assume the same would apply then to bug 739822
[15:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 739822 in ubuntu-docs "2 IE8 lines not translatable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739822
[15:09] <Rocket2DMn> so should we close them as wont fix, or do you want to assign them to the translation admins?
[15:10] <mdke> I don't understand the second bug
[15:11] <mdke> perhaps the pot file on Launchpad is not up to date
[15:11] <mdke> I could fix that one easily enough
[15:11] <Rocket2DMn> those strings arent even in the docs anymore as far as i can tell, i think they are from the switching or windows sections that we dont have anymore.  This was part of exporting favorties to be used in FF
[15:12] <mdke> I'll look at the second bug and will close the first one as "won't fix"
[15:12] <Rocket2DMn> we did ship the "windows" section
[15:12] <Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks mdke
[17:07] <Rocket2DMn> jjesse, are you there?
[17:12] <shaunm> mdke: the hardest part is building a cache file to resolve the xrefs
[17:13] <shaunm> once you have one, it's 'xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam mal.cache.file /path/to/index.cache myfile.page'
[17:13] <shaunm> oh, well, wait
[17:13] <shaunm> using my customizations, that's a little trickier
[17:14] <shaunm> um, and even what I wrote is wrong
[17:14] <shaunm> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam mal.cache.file /path/to/index.cache /path/to/mal2html.xsl myfile.page
[17:16] <shaunm> so what you have to do with my customization outside of yelp-tools is one of 1) put an xsl:import statement inside of it for mal2html.xsl, or 2) create a second xsl file that xsl:imports mal2html.xsl and xsl:includes the customization file
[17:17] <shaunm> the way yelp-build works, it allows you to pass an xslt file with customizations without worrying about the path to the main xslt file
[17:17] <shaunm> and it creates a wrapper xslt on the fly that imports the main xslt and includes the customization
[17:20] <shaunm> anyway, if yelp-xsl is in a standard place, then yelp-build is a standalone script. why don't you just take a built copy of yelp-build and stick it in your bzr repo?
[18:27] <mdke> shaunm: good plan
[18:27] <mdke> shaunm: thanks again
[18:27] <mdke> j1mc: heya - I am having a go at some chat material
[18:27] <mdke> j1mc: I wasn't sure whether you were already working on it though
[18:30] <j1mc> mdke: no, i'm not working on it.
[18:30] <j1mc> thanks for your help.  :)
[18:34] <mdke> cool
[18:34] <mdke> j1mc: I will need you to review it though, I'm feeling my way with Mallard, especially the linking
[18:34] <j1mc> sure
[18:34] <j1mc> you'll just propose a merge?
[18:35] <mdke> maybe, or just commit directly and point you towards the revision :)
[18:35] <j1mc> that would be fine
[18:35] <mdke> j1mc: if you have time and inclination, a mini to-do list would be very helpful, that way people can assign themselves and ensure no duplication of work
[18:36] <mdke> I'm not 100% sure what needs work and the number of files in there is rather overwhelming
[18:36] <j1mc> would the wiki be a good spot for that? when we were working on the gnome docs, we used a gobby session, and found it to be very useful for short-term stuff like that
[18:36] <mdke> yes, wiki I think
[18:37] <mdke> tell me, was thought given to using sub-folders rather than dropping everything in one place?
[18:37] <mdke> I think I raised this once on the gnome list but can't remember what became of the discussion
[18:37] <j1mc> i think that is a mallard + yelp search issue.
[18:38] <j1mc> ... actually, i think it might be both an issue with search + auto-linking
[18:38] <shaunm> it's just a performance thing. the more places yelp has to look for pages, the slower it's going to be
[18:38] <j1mc> for the auto-linking to work, i think the files need to be in the same dir
[18:39] <mdke> I see
[18:39] <mdke> right, the auto-linking doesn't work to other ghelp documents
[18:39] <j1mc> shaunm: the auto-linking can work w/o the files being in the same dir?
[18:40] <shaunm> j1mc: well, yes, if yelp happens to know that those directories belong to the same document
[18:40] <mdke> I was thinking of using separate documents
[18:40] <shaunm> yelp looks in a handful of directories for any given document id
[18:40] <j1mc> how is that specified?
[18:41] <shaunm> um, $XSD_DATA_DIRS and $LANG
[18:41] <shaunm> not stuff you should mess with
[18:42] <shaunm> but if you want to, try sticking a pages in ~/.local/share/gnome/help/gnome-help/C/
[18:42] <shaunm> it will show up when you do yelp ghelp:gnome-help
[18:42] <j1mc> right... but... for example, yelp points to a certain directory to open the help... is that determined by $XSD_DATA_DIRS and LANG?
[18:43] <shaunm> oh, if you just give it a directory or a filename, like most of us do when we're just testing, it only reads pages from a single directory
[18:43] <j1mc> i thought there was some kind of dconf or gconf key now
[18:43] <shaunm> when it gets a ghelp: or a help: URI, it builds a path of directories to look in, based on datadirs and your language setting
[18:44] <j1mc> ok
[18:45] <j1mc> mdke: the ghelp links don't provide auto-linking back like xref links, do. so, even if we link to empathy's mallard-based help, the empathy doc won't link back to the ubuntu help that links to it
[18:45] <j1mc> ... i'm not sure why i put a comma after "links."  :)
[18:47] <j1mc> shaunm: we need for href links to provide links back... even for web pages. so if i link to <link href="http://www.google.com">google</link>, Google will link back to my mallard help file.
[18:47] <j1mc> maybe.
[18:47] <shaunm> I'll get on that :P
[18:47] <j1mc> :)
[18:47] <mdke> understood
[18:48] <j1mc> mdke: i agree we have a lot of files in there. one thing we'll want to clean up is use of "shell-xyz" file names and page id's.
[18:49] <j1mc> i tried to do some of that, but after a while i was more concerned about breaking things
[18:49] <mdke> yes, that's one for next release I guess
[18:50] <j1mc> mdke: did you see my message to the list about when we should stop committing to the natty branch? do you have any kind of cutoff in mind?
[18:51] <mdke> yes, I've sent my thoughts
[18:51] <Rocket2DMn> ahh peppe84 = Giuseppe...?
[18:51] <mdke> yes
[18:51] <j1mc> mdke: nm, i see you replied.  :)
[18:51] <Rocket2DMn> that clears some stuff up
[18:54] <peppe84__> Rocket2DMn, am I :-)
[18:55] <j1mc> hi peppe84__
[18:55] <j1mc> hi jbicha
[18:55] <mdke> is there a maximum number of paragraphs a Mallard page can have before it needs <section> tags?
[18:56] <Rocket2DMn> cool peppe84__ , thanks for the patches
[18:56] <j1mc> mdke: good question. i don't believe so.
[18:56] <mdke> net-chat-skype.page:17: element p: Relax-NG validity error : Expecting element section, got p
[18:56] <mdke> shaunm: any ideas?
[18:58] <mdke> no, cancel that
[18:58] <mdke> it's just a very bad error message from xmllint
[18:58] <jbicha> not according to the validation thing
[18:59] <jbicha> mdke: I had that problem earlier, I moved a comment to a different location
[19:01] <mdke> jbicha: I had invited a tag :) But it was nothing to do with the error message, it was way down at the end of the document
[19:01] <shaunm> yeah, um, you'll often see the message "expecting element ..., got ..."
[19:01] <jbicha> yeah, the comment was at the bottom of the page, which I didn't think should be wrong...
[19:02] <shaunm> you should read that as "something around that element, or maybe way before it, or possibly way after it, is invalid in some way or another, which I'm not telling you about"
[19:03] <mdke> shaunm: that's about right. The error messages are much more cryptic than with docbook
[19:04] <shaunm> well, more accurately, xmllint's rng error messages are more cryptic than its dtd error messages
[19:04] <shaunm> if you validated docbook 5 against its rng, you'd find it equally as frustrating
[19:05]  * mdke nods
[19:05] <j1mc> i have heard that 'jing' is better at validating xml that is based on a relaxng schema than xmllint. installing it pulls in a lot of java-related dependencies, though.
[19:06] <j1mc> i obviously haven't used it much, though.
[19:06] <shaunm> jing does tend to have better error messages
[19:24] <Rocket2DMn> Why don't we just link to the MD5SUMS files on this page - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes
[19:24] <Rocket2DMn> seems a lot easier than manually adding the hashes
[19:25] <Rocket2DMn> we can also remove the unsupported versions
[19:26] <Rocket2DMn> (was just looking at bug 729609)
[19:27] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 729609 in ubuntu-docs "The UbuntuHashes page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes) does not have the Kubuntu/Xubuntu 10.04.2 hashes" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/729609
[19:28] <jbicha> Latest design blog says "top menu bar": http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/
[19:29] <j1mc> jbicha: we'll do it live! top menu bar panel.
[19:30] <j1mc> jbicha: i am fixing to do what phil bull suggested... ask strangers what they would call it.
[19:30] <jbicha> top menu bar is kind of cute since we're calling the indicators menus anyway
[19:32] <jbicha> my wife says "menu bar", but "I'm not going to call it nothing", lol
[19:41] <shaunm> j1mc: I like "top menu bar panel"
[19:41] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: because they are not hosted on an https server
[19:41] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: (re Hashes)
[19:41] <shaunm> remember that when we asked strangers about the top bar in gnome, we got pretty much a 50/50 split between "top bar" and "top panel"
[19:42] <jbicha> panel sounds redundant to me if you throw in the word bar
[19:42] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, fair enough
[19:43] <mdke> I still like the idea of teaching people terminology
[19:43] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do i need to change in order to do an "official" build of the docs that could be deployed to h.u.c? I found the change for draft.mode, but it seems like something else is missing, the diff is still too large
[19:44] <Rocket2DMn> it looks like a value is off, using 10.04 instead of 10.10 (building the maverick branch)
[19:44] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I can't think of anything offhand, but will be working on html builds over the coming days
[19:45] <Rocket2DMn> i think i found it actually
[19:45] <Rocket2DMn> the ubuntu-banner.xsl is still referencing 10.04
[19:45] <Rocket2DMn> i guess when you built the maverick docs to huc, you didnt commit that - they are correct in the huc branch, just not in maverick ubuntu-docs
[19:47] <Rocket2DMn> looks like there is also a css style in the html files for draft stuff that shouldnt be there
[19:48] <jbicha> mdke: but we're making up the terminology as we go, panel doesn't really mean anything in particular in Unity or Gnome Shell
[19:50] <jbicha> teaching people "indicators" is probably good but the Design names are usually like "Me Menu" or "Session Menu" anyway
[19:51] <mdke> jbicha: if there is no terminology to teach, obviously we can't do that. But people will understand both "top panel" and "top bar", regardless of whether they think of one or the other when first asked about it
[19:52] <mdke> jbicha: but I/'m in favour of teaching them the terminology of the "Me Menu" and so on because the design people choose the names on purpose and users will read about them elsewhere on the internet
[19:52] <Rocket2DMn> hmm, dont seem to be getting alerts from the maverick branch, its sending emails or attaching to bug reports
[19:52] <Rocket2DMn> its not*
[19:53] <mdke> j1mc, jbicha - do we have anything about using gwibber from the Me or Messaging Menus?
[19:54] <j1mc> mdke: i don't think so.
[19:54] <j1mc> the folks from the vancouver loco team re-licensed their gwibber manual as cc-by-sa-3.0 per our request.
[19:55] <j1mc> maybe you could take some info from there, if there is anything applicable
[19:56] <mdke> ok, will add something about that in the chat section
[20:02] <mdke> it would be cool to add icons in the unity-appmenu-intro.page to what each of the menus looks like. It shouldn't be necessary to add anything to the package, we can just link to the icons on the user's system like we did in newtoubuntu.xml in ubuntu-docs
[20:04] <j1mc> you mean, icons for the networking, bluetooth, etc? that would be a good idea.
[20:04] <j1mc> i think we can do some cleanup on our figures directory, too. purge the stuff that isn't being used.
[20:05] <mdke> yes, exactly that
[20:05] <j1mc> i wish we had a way to check for broken image links, too. it shouldn't be too hard to add that to yelp-check
[20:07] <j1mc> ok - i need to step out for a bit. have a good day/evening, all.
[20:07] <Rocket2DMn> anyone know if bug 328700 is still applicable?
[20:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 328700 in ubuntu-docs "Various spelling mistakes in Dutch translation" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/328700
[20:07] <Rocket2DMn> seeya j1mc
[20:12] <peppe84> I have think that is possible replace the old nautilus image present in ghelp:user-guide?nautilus. what do you think about? :-)
[20:13] <mdke> peppe84: probably not worth it. That document is only used by a handful of applications now, we have included it for backwards compatibility but it will disappear next release
[20:14] <mdke> nautilus doesn't use it for help
[20:14] <mdke> damn, gwibber doesn't have a manual
[22:52] <Rocket2DMn> hey, i'm thinking bug 497834 is something we should be able to do.  Response #5 looks ok, I just don't know anything about dealing with pdfs, so idk how to force that mockup to be used as the frontpage of the serverguide pdf
[22:52] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 497834 in ubuntu-docs "Ubuntu Server Guide isn't aesthetically appealing." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497834
[22:57] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: it could be tricky based on our current pdf toolchain - but I haven't looked into whether fop allows you to add a frontpage in that way.
[22:58] <mdke> shaunm: can I run something past you?
[22:59] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, i would think there is a tool to let you insert pdf pages into another, but again, ive never tried
[22:59] <Rocket2DMn> i dont even have those tools installed to build the pdf
[23:00] <mdke> shaunm: actually nm, I see that j1mc has already thought of it before me, sorry to trouble you
[23:03] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, on bug 540896, I don't have an IE7 anywhere to use for updating directions.  Statistics indicate that only 5.4% of internet users are using IE7 (and falling), so it's probably not worth updating.
[23:03] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 540896 in ubuntu-docs "Windows - Press "Favorites" is confusing for XP users and IE7 path is incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540896
[23:03] <Rocket2DMn> would you prefer to do nothing, or should i just delete the section on IE7?
[23:04] <Rocket2DMn> see https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/switching/C/preparing-bookmarks.html
[23:06] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't have a strong view
[23:09] <Rocket2DMn> alright, i'll run out and grab me some dinner and think about
[23:09] <Rocket2DMn> thanks
[23:39] <mdke> jbicha: we should get you commit access asap - you are doing great work and I think enough patches have been reviewed by now to show you know what you are doing and deserve access
[23:41] <jbicha> mdke: ok cool
[23:43] <mdke> jbicha: could you have a look at this page and just make sure you have read the documents referenced there:
[23:43] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization#Requirements%20for%20Ubuntu%20Documentation%20Committers