[02:48] <hajour1> hi all short time here.if everything go all right i will have tomorrow again a second hand pc for to use or day after that
[02:51] <hajour1> Pendulum, ^
[02:53] <hajour1> o sorry you probarly are sleeping
[02:53] <hajour1> everytime foget the time barrier
[04:11] <hajour1> goodnight all
[13:40] <webczat> Hey, what is the status of ubuntu accessibility for 11.04?
[13:46] <webczat> Actually I mean at-spi/sorca
[13:46] <webczat> s/orca
[14:43] <maco> webczat: orca seems to work ok, though ubiquity (the installer on the live cd) is not very accessible
[14:45] <Pendulum> webczat: installing using an accessibility profile will default back to Classic Gnome rather than Unity, however
[15:31] <webczat> what is inaccessible in ubiquity?
[15:35] <webczat> also another question: does ubuntu-11 have newer gnome? i know it does not have gnome shell, but that does not mean it doesn't have other components. especially, I mean control center, gdm or others.
[16:11] <charlie-tca> webczat: Ubuntu 11.04 has Gnome 3.2
[16:11] <charlie-tca> no
[16:11] <charlie-tca> webczat: Ubuntu 11.04 has Gnome 2.32
[16:12] <charlie-tca> it does not have gnome 3
[16:15] <maco> webczat: ubiquity's explanatory text and page titles aren't read, and the timezone setting thing doesn't work well from the keyboard
[16:16] <maco> webczat: also, the things that are read out are the variable names for the interactive elements. most make some sense (user underscore name) so you can get through it, but it's not very good
[17:05] <webczat> about ubuntu and gnome, i don't think it's a real 2.32 but I may be wrong, I heart it has a new orca and (probably optional) new at-spi, it doesn't have gnome-shell, but what about other things? is it really like it doesn't have any newer component?
[17:13] <charlie-tca> I don't know which libraries and applications may have been used. There could be some new ones included
[17:16] <webczat> hmm, looking through, i don't see the control center newer than 2.32.
[17:16] <webczat> maco: about ubiquity, the timezone selection isn't a problem because ubuntu installer always selected a valid one.
[17:18] <charlie-tca> anything that requires gnome3 will not be higher than 2.32, since gnome3 is not included
[17:19] <webczat> orca doesn't require it, right?
[17:20] <webczat> actually gnome3 could be partially included, like even without gnome-shell. it wouldn't hurt.
[17:20] <charlie-tca> gnome3 is not included, it requires separate installation from a ppa 
[17:20] <charlie-tca> The version of Orca used does not require gnome3, no.
[17:23] <webczat> what's the accessibility status of gnome3 on natty?
[17:26] <charlie-tca> It is not supported
[17:26] <charlie-tca> Gnome3 is not included in Natty
[17:26] <charlie-tca> !gnome3
[17:26] <ubot2> Factoid 'gnome3' not found
[18:18] <webczat> I know it's not supported, but it's possible someone tested that.
[18:23] <webczat> So I'm asking.
[18:23] <webczat> Also, what about at-spi2?
[18:30] <webczat> I know that it's available.
[18:30] <webczat> At least I think so
[18:35] <maco> *blink blink*
[18:36] <maco> i just got told on the kde-accessibility list that all of Qt is accessible and 4.6 has a screenreader
[18:37] <webczat> I heart that it has.
[18:37] <webczat> but...
[18:38] <webczat> at-spi is more important cause I don't wana select between qt and gtk apps, and I also heart that kde's builtin screenreader is not as functional as orca, but not sure.
[18:42] <maco> i just installed kaccessibility like the person on the mailing list told me, and it put an icon in the tray (useful if you're blind, i'm sure...) and i clicked it and checked the "enable screenreader" checkbox, and i have yet to hear a peep from it
[18:43] <charlie-tca> I thought it did not work ?
[18:44] <maco> as far as i can tell, it doesn't
[18:44] <maco> people on kde-accessibility list claim Qt and KDE have full accessibility support
[18:44] <maco> i'm not seein' it
[18:44] <charlie-tca> whew! at least my memory has not failed completely then :-)
[18:44] <charlie-tca> heh, people at Canonical claim Ubuntu does too, but it is always those who don't use it saying so
[18:45] <webczat> actually ubuntu is more accessible than some distros using gnome.
[18:45] <charlie-tca> To be fair, Ubuntu is pretty good with accessibility. 
[18:45] <charlie-tca> We are making good gains with the developers.
[18:45] <maco> also, orca doesn't see konsole
[18:45] <maco> so um...
[18:46] <webczat> I was using 2 ubuntu versions and I agree.
[18:46] <webczat> maco: orca doesn't see the real text console/xterm but it sees gnome-terminal.
[18:47] <webczat> and orca wasn't and will never be designed for console, the console can be speech-enabled if you use speakup.
[18:48] <webczat> and it's included since linux kernel .37, and requires only a connector bridging it to espeak, or a hardware synth.
[18:49] <webczat> it only has localization problems but is extremely usable when working
[18:51] <webczat> Did you tested this kde screenreading thingy that does not work?
[18:52] <webczat> i would but I don't have kde4.6 I think :)
[18:52] <charlie-tca> maco said they tried it, which started us talking about it
[18:54] <webczat> mhm
[18:54] <webczat> is it possible something changed from the time when they tested it?
[18:55] <charlie-tca> anything is possible, but AFAIR, it never has worked
[18:55] <webczat> actually how it didn't work? like what happened when someone tried to use it?
[18:56]  * webczat waits impatiently for qt-at-spi, I wana see kde
[18:57] <charlie-tca> like it doesn't really work. no sound
[18:57] <webczat> hmm, maybe it's just a synthesizer problem, not a screenreader side?
[18:57] <webczat> I'll see if I'll want to test it when I'll have 11.04, they include the new kde, am I right?
[19:00] <charlie-tca> I don't know which version of kde is in 11.04
[19:00] <charlie-tca> I know orca works for me in Xubuntu and Ubuntu, but not Kubuntu
[19:00] <maco> charlie-tca: 4.6.3 in 11.04
[19:01] <webczat> i heart it's 4.6. also, i think that making a kde screenreader makes no sense, because there is orca and evolwing qt-at-spi bridge, unless this screenreader will itself have at-spi support.
[19:01] <maco> and im on natty
[19:01] <maco> webczat: doesnt work, like totally silent. and i HAVE used orca here before, and that was fine with gnome apps. orca is silent with kde apps, and kaccessibleapp is silent, period
[19:02] <webczat> maco: but isn't it a problem like you didn't set QT_ACCESSIBILITY env variable or something?
[19:02] <maco> if you have to do something that arcane, that's a bug
[19:02] <webczat> I mean i don't know how it works, maybe it shows up when the variable is not set too
[19:03] <maco> anyway, my message back to the list was "OK, uh...how does it work? *steps i took that failed*"
[19:03] <webczat> maco: yeah, that's. but this has a reason similar to "accessibility slows anything down"
[19:04] <webczat> maco: can you please try testing the kaccessibleapp after setting QT_ACCESSIBILITY to 1 somehow? I'm interested in this but I really don't have any way to test that.
[19:04] <webczat> I actually wait for non-beta release in few days.
[19:06] <webczat> if it's possible to set this before kde startup and then start kde and run the screenreader
[19:06] <webczat> would be fun to look at it
[19:06] <maco> ok so i set that var, then i started it and now if i right click on the icon it reads the dropdown of it to me
[19:06] <maco> "speak text" tells me to type the text and press ok
[19:06] <maco> i wonder if its only going to read apps i launch *after* it?
[19:07] <maco> umm...noe
[19:07] <maco> *nope
[19:07] <maco> it doesnt read the launcher at all. if i start up konsole after having started the screenreader, i still get nothing
[19:07] <webczat> maco: yes, but you can somehow force it to happen before kde startup, right? like in some xsession thingy
[19:08] <webczat> it just can't do it cause applications don't expose accessibility info at all without this variable set, I read about it somewhere. actually the same as gnome but it has GTK_MODULES
[19:09] <maco> ok, so i just launched a new konsole with that var, and this time it opened and said "shell" and when i typed "ls" it said "43"
[19:10] <maco> (orca would've read the list)
[19:11] <maco> if i cat a file, it said "51"
[19:14] <maco> TheMuso: ev's instructions are for an ldtp test script, but there's nothing in there about making accerciser go, just the actual tests. the only relevant thing is that ubiquity is started with sudo, which, yeah, *i know* 
[19:15] <maco> TheMuso: looks like the way his script is able to find ubiquity is by being the parent process, but accerciser can't launch child processes that i can find
[19:19] <webczat> maco: as I sait, can you somehow force the var to be always set? maybe the screenreader is worse than orca, but maybe it really works?
[19:20] <maco> yeah i could put it in kde startup to make it affect all Qt apps, but the part where it doesn't work well on the ones it has been told to affect is disheartening
[19:21] <maco> just tried Kate with it. doesn't read back what i'm typing :-/
[19:21] <webczat> maco: terminal is one thing. what about, say, launcher, panel, calculator? maybe it works on more things than it does not?
[19:21] <maco> oh how odd. it reads the highlighted thing *inside* the menu before it reads the menu name
[19:22] <maco> launcher would require that i set it to auto-start then log out
[19:22] <maco> and as i'm in the midst of a compile, i'm not up for loggin gout
[19:22] <webczat> mhm
[19:22] <maco> but i just tried a text editor, Kate, as i said
[19:23] <webczat> maco: the thing about typing text is not bad cause echo can be disabled by default and it's not a bad thing, some people like it. but i didn't understand the part about menus...?
[19:23] <maco> webczat: when the menus drop down, it reads the first item in the menu, then the menu name
[19:23] <maco> in KCalc, it doesn't read the buttons
[19:23] <maco> oh i see
[19:23] <maco> it reads them if you tab, just not if you mouse
[19:24] <webczat> and that is normal
[19:24] <maco> webczat: there's no way to enable echoing as far as i can tell
[19:24] <maco> the menus are read for both mouse and tab
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Well, that's logical. blind can't really use the mouse so good
[19:24] <maco> though partially-sighted can
[19:24] <webczat> orca also doesn't track the mouse this way by default
[19:24] <maco> how odd
[19:25] <maco> i tabbed to 9, then hit space to activate it, and it said "6"
[19:25] <maco> (yes six, not space)
[19:25] <webczat> hahaha.
[19:25] <webczat> why 6?
[19:25] <maco> no idea
[19:26] <webczat> does it actually make sense? like did you write something to the calc?
[19:26] <maco> also:  from sighted-me: ewww at the packing on the widgets in this window. they're all smashed up to the right when it's maximised
[19:26] <maco> no it doesn't make sense
[19:26] <maco> activating the 9 key said 6
[19:26] <maco> go figure
[19:26] <maco> it didn't do it again, so oh wlel
[19:27] <maco> er... and x cubed says "x sub 3 slash sub"
[19:27] <maco> i will not be using a calculator this way any time soon
[19:27] <webczat> I'm blind, if i'll get there for kde, I can test it, but not now cause I don't have ubuntu 11.04
[19:28] <webczat> it starts to be interesting, don't you think?
[19:28] <maco> im finding it just plain weird
[19:28] <maco> i started konqueror (the old web browser / file browser thing) and it said "zero. sixty-one."
[19:28] <webczat> what about manual typing numbers and pressing = or enter or how it is commanded to calculate?
[19:29] <webczat> and, does tabbing or arrowing work on konqueror?
[19:29] <maco> i went to kde.org in konqueror and it told me 25 60 89 76 50 32
[19:30] <webczat> lol
[19:30] <maco> i see nothing gaining or losing focus when i tab
[19:30] <webczat> it starts to be fun
[19:30] <maco> i'm going with "totally accessible my arse"
[19:30] <webczat> this can be because it doesn't have special support for browsers, not bad, orca didn't have it for firefox 2.x for example
[19:31] <webczat> and epiphany. orca3 probably does. does orca read webkit things now as they promised?
[19:32] <maco> the version in natty does not
[19:32] <webczat> hmmmm
[19:32] <maco> it is silent throughout the webkit slideshow in ubiquity
[19:32] <maco> i think it says something like "webkit content" and then shuts up
[19:32] <webczat> argh again...
[19:33] <webczat> it should. unless you can arrow or flat-review thru?
[19:33] <webczat> also it may be too old webkit
[19:33] <maco> i arrowed down and it said 10 60 70 80 50 40 30 20
[19:33] <maco> (in konq again)
[19:33] <webczat> heehehehe
[19:33] <webczat> fun.
[19:34] <webczat> hmm, i'm near laughing.
[19:34] <webczat> but it's still a lot better than you thought. it probably needs years or months of work.
[19:34] <AlanBell> o/ webczat 
[19:35] <webczat> o/ AlanBell 
[19:35] <maco> though with it not being at-spi, that means mixing qt apps and everything-else-out-there is rather hard
[19:36] <webczat> I'd also willing to test, in any way possible, qt at-spi thing. it needs to be downloaded (svn, git or somehow unfortunately), compiled and installed, then someone should try starting gnome with it, setting QT_ACCESSIBILITY to 1, start orca and run something in qt. but at-spi2 needs to be enabled.
[19:37] <webczat> and installed using apt-get
[19:37] <webczat> you probably can do it for kde if you set GTK_MODULES I think
[19:38] <webczat> there was some mail on the orca list for how to do it but... probably not hard if you find the repo
[19:38] <webczat> it's on github I think
[19:39] <webczat> does someone want to look? i'll anyway try to do it when I'll have possibilities. like with skype.
[19:41] <maco> Pendulum: turns out there's some a11y in qt. its just...weird
[19:41] <maco> Pendulum: see scrollback
[19:42] <webczat> erm I found the url
[19:43] <webczat> it's git://gitorious.org/qt-at-spi/qt-at-spi.git
[19:43] <maco> i think its packaged in natty
[19:43] <maco> im pretty sure actually. someone asked in here for that, and then Riddell also asked for people to test the package
[19:43] <maco> except, i cant *find* the binary package
[19:44] <maco> apt doesn't know about it
[19:44] <webczat> maco: qt-at-spi can't be packaged, because it has not been released yet, unless my informations are not up to date enought.
[19:45] <webczat> ahh, it's alpha. so no possibilities to put it there
[19:45] <maco> alphas can be packaged...
[19:45] <webczat> maco: do you have at-spi1 or 2?
[19:45] <webczat> maco: maybe, but I don't think they usually are
[19:45] <maco> 1
[19:46] <maco> i know it was packaged. it was on REVU. Riddell sponsored it.
[19:46] <webczat> maco: if you want to test it, you need to switch to at-spi 2. depends on you but I think it's a good fun.
[19:46] <maco> unles it just plain failed to build...
[19:47] <webczat> i don't know if at-spi2 fully works in ubuntu, but...
[19:47] <webczat> if it does, someone can test the bridge
[19:48] <maco> oh i see
[19:48] <webczat> i have it. will try to build it.
[19:48] <maco> he packaged it and was still looking for reviewers
[19:48] <maco> and then ignored the review about the lintian error in march :P
[19:48] <webczat> what error?
[19:48] <maco> (i have no room to talk as i have been very useless this cycle)
[19:49] <maco> the debian/copyright file has an old FSF address
[19:49] <maco> lintian checks the package metadata
[19:49] <maco> er, warning, not error
[19:49] <webczat> mhm
[19:50] <maco> i'll have to play with at-spi2 and qt-at-spi and orca and see if they all get along later. its 3h past lunchtime
[19:50] <webczat> actually it's not so difficult to make a switch to 2
[19:51] <maco> kdebindings takes ages to build!
[19:51] <webczat> erm I'm not happy cause I can't test it.
[19:51] <maco> this build has been going for 4 hours
[19:52] <webczat> hem hem, i really, really do not want to remind for myself how long it took to build the whole kde on pentium4! but this was kde3
[19:53] <webczat> one day I think, or more, not sure
[20:00] <webczat> erhm, btw, what about java accessibility? like running policytool with gnome and orca? didn't work in 10.10
[20:17] <maco> ah! full explanation of the QAccessible/KAccessible/Qt-at-spi thing:  http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-accessibility&m=130367179023658&w=2
[20:18] <maco> Pendulum, TheMuso ^
[20:24] <webczat> mmmm
[20:24] <webczat> maco: do you plan telling them what actually happens? :)
[20:25] <maco> webczat: in another message in that thread, i said that it reads menus but just gives numbers when it comes to Konsole or Konqueror
[20:27] <webczat> and calculator too? :d
[20:29] <maco> yes, i mentioned it saying 6 when i activated 9
[20:29] <webczat> heh, it's fun, really
[20:29] <webczat> but it's good that they made a start
[20:33] <webczat> when will you test at-spi2 thing?
[20:45]  * webczat is interested in this
[21:04] <webczat> btw, what does ubuntu use for gksu? or does it use gksu?
[21:16] <phillw> webczat: if you are calling a gui proamme  then gksu is recpmmenedened for the rare times ypu need su access.,
[21:18] <phillw> you can really mess up permissions and ownership of prgrammes and data, su is a onloy to be really used as a emergencency recovery tool.
[21:23] <webczat> but synaptic used gksu, as well as some other gui tools.
[21:27] <webczat> like firewall, nanny, etc
[21:55] <AlanBell> webczat: gksudo
[22:26] <webczat> AlanBell: does it have the same accessibility problems as gksu?
[22:27] <AlanBell> I think there was some cunning bridging plan that happened
[22:28]  * webczat needs to wait for 11.04 and check that out
[22:28] <webczat> i mean, 4 days
[22:29] <webczat> just for sure... is it safe to upgrade, or do i need to reinstall? like i heart that the system upgrade can break some things.
[22:29] <AlanBell> webczat: it has the same problems :(
[22:29] <webczat> like the system
[22:29] <webczat> can't they do it another way?
[22:29] <AlanBell> the upgrade should work and is supported
[22:30] <AlanBell> sorry, I just tried "gksudo gedit" and orca could not see my gedit window
[22:31] <AlanBell> some applications now use policykit and run mostly as the normal user
[22:31] <AlanBell> software centre would be an example of this
[22:32] <AlanBell> you choose the apps you want as a normal user, then to install you put your password in (and it does read you the password dialog) but there is no user interface exposed that belongs to root
[23:13] <TheMuso> maco: Yeah I am on that list.
[23:13] <TheMuso> Still doesn't solve the upcoming QML disaster though.
[23:22] <JanC> gksudo is just a symlink to gksu  ;)
[23:23] <JanC> $ ls -l `which gksudo`
[23:23] <JanC> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 2011-03-29 15:12 /usr/bin/gksudo -> gksu*