[00:11] <elky> Pici, nhandler, im pretty sure we did it like that to avoid the spambot-traversable logs from being peppered with it.
[01:31] <nhandler> elky: It is fairly easy to get rid of those messages when moderating the list with listadmin and keep them out of peoples' email. I think I'd rather risk the extra spam getting caught in the queue in this case
[01:31] <rww> listadmin ♥
[01:32] <nhandler> Yeah, listadmin is great (especially if you moderate many mailman lists)
[01:32] <rww> especially if you moderate lists like Ubuntu's where the mailserver admins can't figure out to stop the lists from backscatter spamming each other
[01:34] <rww> listadmin automatically processed something like 95% of ubuntu-us-ca's quarantined mail by the time I got bored and stopped moderating it. It was glorious.
[01:49] <rww> Today in why-linux-going-mainstream-hurts-my-head, someone deletes /tmp.
[01:55] <elky> hah
[03:29] <Jordan_U> rww: A few years ago someone came into #ubuntu asking for help with a production server thousands of miles away from them. They had deleted */etc/*, and they only had the one ssh connection still usable to fix it.
[03:30] <Jordan_U> That person happened to be using Red Hat rather than Ubuntu, but after moving the discussion to another channel we actually did manage to salvage the situation by some miracle.
[03:47] <rww> Any #ubuntu-offtopic ops around?
[03:49] <rww> tonyyarusso: I see you hiding. I'm going for a walk, hold down the fort for 10 minutes ;P
[03:49] <tonyyarusso> bah!
[04:39] <jebblue> rww I apologize for stating my opinion concerning the direction that Conoical took when Mark Shttleworth turned over the reigns; I'm a supporter of Ubuntu, a fan, an unofficial evangelist. I do not like Unity but I think if one can state that in of all places an Off-topic forum then it should be ok. I did not mean to offend anyone on the basis of sex or anything - but yes I also do not like the color purple.
[04:42] <rww> I don't care about your opinion of Ubuntu. I don't use it myself, and it doesn't affect me in the slightest. You're banned from #ubutu-offtopic because you equated "woman" and "underexperienced" and then went on a rant about how a woman being in charge of Canonical has something to do with the color purple. That is sexism, and you will not be sexist in #ubuntu-offtopic or any other #ubuntu* channel.
[04:42] <tonyyarusso> jebblue: The issue is not that you dislike purple, or unity, or whatever - the issue is that you felt the need to blame the involvement of women in management of the project for the things you dislike.
[04:43] <rww> Since I think this is the first time you've been banned, I'm willing to remove the ban, but I would like to be very, very clear about what is and isn't acceptable behavior.
[04:43] <rww> !guidelines
[04:43] <rww> !coc
[04:44] <jebblue> good night guys
[04:44] <rww> Well there we go, then.
[04:44] <rww> @mark #ubuntu-ops jebblue joined channel, did not progress ban
[05:27] <crum> hey what happened?
[05:27] <crum> I am banned from #ubuntu-offtopic
[05:27] <crum> again!
[05:27] <crum> I don't even know what I did I sear
[05:27] <crum> swear
[05:27]  * rww looks
[05:28] <crum> thanks
[05:28] <rww> crum: Do you use any other nicknames apart from this one?
[05:28] <crum> nope
[05:29] <crum> I did a while back but not in the past 3 months
[05:29] <rww> crum: Alrighty, you only have one ban set on you, since 10 days ago. I was asking because you said in #ubuntu the other day that you'd been banned a month and had come in here and talked about it, so I figured I'd check.
[05:29] <rww> hypatia: it's your ban, are you around?
[05:30] <crum> I did come in hear and talk about it
[05:30] <crum> the op said that I'd be unbanned in 24 hours
[05:31] <rww> This was before then. But anyways, let me check through the logs and see where we're at. One minute.
[05:32] <crum> thank you sir
[05:33] <rww> crum: Alrighty. Looks like you said it wouldn't happen again, which is really what we're looking for, so I'm going to remove your ban. When you rejoin #ubuntu-offtopic, please read the channel topic and the guidelines linked in there, and consider not bringing up politics, since it doesn't tend to end well ;)
[05:33] <crum> ok
[05:33] <rww> you should now be able to join #ubuntu-offtopic, please do so and speak so I know you're all set
[05:34] <crum> rww whoever wrote the guidelines must be a lawyer
[05:34] <rww> Excellent. Have a good day, and bear in mind that future bans are rather harder to get rid of :)
[05:34] <rww> crum: they've been amended through years of people looking for loopholes >.>
[05:35] <crum> how did freenode get to lawyerish on channel rules.
[05:35] <crum> well I guess you just told me how
[05:38] <crum> the rules aren't clear on which subjects if any are not allowed in #ubuntu-offtopic
[05:41] <tsimpson> crum: that's intended
[05:41] <rww> The things that aren't recommended are listed on there, and you're required to stop talking about them if asked. In terms of outright bans on topics, freenode's list is a good start: http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#offtopic
[05:41] <rww> Really, though, just use common sense and stop if someone asks you to.
[06:25] <crum> Of the plethora of implicated algorithms in Geographic Information Systems, the majority rests in the bounds computation geometry.
[06:25] <crum> Is that a good sentence?
[06:26] <rww> crum: #ubuntu-ops is for ban resolution. I think you meant to put that in #ubuntu-offtopic ;)
[06:26] <crum> oops wrong chan
[06:52] <elky> <crum> rww whoever wrote the guidelines must be a lawyer <-- i should take that as a compliment, right?
[06:53] <elky> (though, it's not really primarily my document anymore)
[06:53] <rww> elky: You're qualified to practice internet law!
[06:53] <Flannel> Hmm, have the guidelines been reorganized yet? or is that still pending from a bajillion months ago?
[06:53] <Flannel> Looks like it's still pending.
[06:53] <elky> Flannel, i dunno. i'm on the ircc and I'm confused as to where we were up to when my term started, and i'm not really any more clued-in now.
[06:54] <Flannel> a while ago (I'll look in my logs in a minute) we discussed reorganizing the Guidelines to make the important stuff near the top, etc, etc
[06:55] <rww> You people need to get yourselves a ticket tracker. I hear complaining about emails never getting answered on one side, and confusion about what you have to work on on the other.
[06:55] <rww> I know this has come up before, but you need to actually do it.
[06:55] <Flannel> Us mere operators were told not to just make the changes when we volunteered, because the IRCC was going to/was already working on/whatever it.
[06:56] <tsimpson> Flannel: that's not the reason you're asked not to change it
[06:56] <Flannel> tsimpson: The "We'll do it" was the answer, yes.
[06:56] <tsimpson> it's a policy, and so it is supposed to be approved/changed only by the ircc
[06:56] <Flannel> tsimpson: I don't see how re-arranging blocks from A C B D E to A B C D E is a change of policy.
[06:57] <elky> tsimpson, see, this is something that changed then. In days gone by, it was "not to be changed without consultation with the ircc"
[06:57] <tsimpson> because it should still be reviewed by the ircc before being accepted
[06:57] <rww> If you only read every 9th word, you get the secret hidden policies. Switching sections around breaks that.
[06:57] <elky> and consulting was easy. you asked and actually ayes and nays within a reasonable timeframe.
[06:57] <pleia2> rww: I knew it!
[06:57] <elky> now people wait forever for even acknowledgement of mails
[06:58] <tsimpson> elky: I think it's a little strict too, but it's better than having "don't edit this page, unless X, Y or Z..."
[06:58] <elky> tsimpson, er... no comprehendo. We used to be room temperature but now we're ice cold because it's better than boiling?
[06:59] <tsimpson> btw, you can copy the page to somewhere else on the wiki, edit it and then just ask for approval to merge
[06:59] <Flannel> elky: It's because operators aren't supposed to be leaders on IRC anymore, the IRCC is all the leadership we need, and operators are merely the mindless minions.
[06:59] <elky> Plz to make sense.
[06:59] <elky> Flannel, yes, shoot me now.
[06:59] <Flannel> elky: Remember, councils mean no one has to take responsibility for anything! It's no ones fault!
[06:59] <rww> tsimpson: except that if we ask for approval over email, the email does not get answered.
[06:59] <elky> rww, because we need ten meetings an a policy document before we can change... a... policy document?
[07:00] <tsimpson> I know we need to work on making sure all emails are answered promptly, but don't suggest that no emails ever get responded to
[07:00] <elky> tsimpson, "in a timely manner"
[07:00] <Flannel> elky: Maybe you should come up with a policy on how to edit the policy, then we can all read it and decide whether to discuss it at a meeting.
[07:01] <rww> Actually, never mind. This whole discussion just annoys me, and I don't have anything novel to contribute.
[07:01] <elky> Flannel, hrm... do we need a meeting to schedule a meeting step in there?
[07:01] <Flannel> elky: If you'd like, we can get together a week from tuesday to discuss the outline of the policy proposal!
[07:01] <tsimpson> yeah, I wonder why it gets annoying with all the sarcastic remarks...
[07:01] <elky> rww, this whole discussion annoys me because it worked perfectly beforehand and then some strawmen were thrown around and ta-da, here we are.
[07:02] <Flannel> elky: This isn't unique to IRC though, the CC has been working hard to push policies on every part of the community, regardless of whether they make sense there.
[07:02] <Flannel> er, sorry
[07:02] <Flannel> s/policies/councils/
[07:02] <elky> Flannel, same thing.
[07:02] <Flannel> elky: Not quite, no.
[07:02] <elky> same effect then
[07:02] <Flannel> Not really, policies can actually be beneificial to small communities, etc.
[07:03] <elky> Flannel, policies can be when they're defined by the community in question. When they're pushed onto the communities in question, they're not.
[07:03] <elky> hence my implication that forced rule and forced policy are roughly the equivalent.
[07:03] <Flannel> elky: Sure, forcing stuff upon people isn't ever terribly successful.
[07:04] <Flannel> and I suppose I was talking about pushing X, so yes.
[08:53] <wjd86> is this a support channel?
[08:54] <elky> wjd86, no. this is a channel for irc channel problems. you're looking for #ubuntu
[08:54] <wjd86> ah tyvm :D
[11:24] <elky> too many guests, tab complete almost-fail
[12:59] <bazhang> is larsto unbanned in #ubuntu ?
[12:59] <Pici> I haven't unbanned him
[12:59] <bazhang> quelle surprise: ban evading again
[13:10] <Pici> bazhang: You want to take care of it, or shall I?
[13:10] <bazhang> Pici, larstorben et al? I will
[13:38] <LjL> what about in -ot then? :P
[13:38] <Pici> Not banned there, yet.
[13:46] <ikonia> !logs
[14:02] <Pici> !blogs
[14:15] <popey> !clogs
[14:15] <popey> bah
[14:32] <Pici> clogs is <alias> dk ?
[14:34] <LjL> not !nl?
[14:34] <Tm_T> I was wondering the dk bit too
[14:35]  * Pici shrugs
[14:53] <ikonia> alabd: I've once again removed you from ubuntu as persist with asking for offtopic support
[14:53] <alabd> Good day all , ikonia you are making mistake that question is not related to pidgin ok ccan you understand
[14:53] <ikonia> no - I don't
[14:53] <ikonia> asking for logging events on pidgen buddy events is pidgin related
[14:53] <alabd> do you have problem
[14:53] <ikonia> that is pidgin scripting
[14:54] <alabd> you are the pnl;y person bann me on ubuntu
[14:54] <alabd> is there any other op here?
[14:54] <ikonia> that has nothing do with anything
[14:54] <alabd> no it is not pidgin scripting
[14:54] <Corey> This is kind of a recurring theme.
[14:54] <alabd> pidgin just runs that script
[14:54] <ikonia> are you or are you not asking how to log events when a user logs in or out of pidgin
[14:54] <alabd> pidgin just runs that script
[14:54] <ikonia> alabd: that is PIDGIN script / support, for which you've been told in multiple channels #pidgin is the correct place
[14:54] <alabd> ok?
[14:55] <ikonia> ubuntu doesn't even use pidgin any more
[14:56] <alabd> ikonia: oh my god
[14:56] <ikonia> I'm not your god
[14:56] <alabd> please one op comes and stop him/her please
[14:56] <alabd> he/she just want bann me
[14:56] <ikonia> I don't
[14:56] <alabd> yes you do
[14:56] <Corey> alabd: Knock it off please.
[14:56] <ikonia> I want you to listen to advice/instructions and use the channels correctly
[14:56] <alabd> ikonia:  your advice is wrong
[14:57] <alabd> and you don't listen to me
[14:57] <ikonia> alabd: do you want help with pidgin, yes or no
[14:57] <alabd> no
[14:57] <Corey> alabd: Your question is best asked elsewhere.  I fail to see the hard part of that statement?
[14:57] <ikonia> alabd: right, so you don't want pidgin to run a script when a buddy logs in
[14:57] <topyli> alabd: ikonia's advice seems correct to me. just join #pidgin and give it a rest
[14:58] <alabd> Corey: hello , see my question was that how to write a script in ubuntu that can logs it self running times
[14:58] <alabd> is it a question that ikonia should ban me ?
[14:59] <Corey> alabd: After being told repeatedly to ask it somewhere else?  Yes.
[14:59] <ikonia> alabd: that script is run on pidgin buddy pounces, as you've said multiple times and as you've been told where to ask
[14:59] <ikonia> alabd: 1.) we don't do custom pidgin scripting 2.) ubuntu doesn't use pidgin any more , so #pidgin is the best place, as you've been told in #ubuntu and ##linux
[14:59] <alabd> Corey: ikonia said , question is related to pidgin
[15:00] <alabd> ikonia:  for 1) it's not pidgin scripting .pidgin just runs that script
[15:00] <alabd> ok
[15:00] <ikonia> alabd: the event is run by pidgin - ask in #pidgin
[15:00] <alabd> ?
[15:01] <ikonia> instead of arguing it, why don't you just listen to instruction and ask in #pidgin
[15:02] <alabd> because 1_ asked there also 2- you are bannig me with no true reason 3 - you are the only person ban me iun #ubuntu and now also after month my ban is removed and you came and banned it
[15:02] <alabd> what do these mean ?
[15:02] <alabd> what should a user do when a OP do the same behavior with him ?
[15:02] <alabd> rules just can stop users ? is there nay rules stop a OP ?
[15:02] <ikonia> these mean 1.) wait for a response in #pidgin 2.) I'm banning you as you persistantly ask offtopic questions and ignore instruction 3.) I am the only one who has banned you - it's that simple
[15:03] <ikonia> alabd: I suggest you leave now and try to follow the channels guidelines and policies (please) and there will be no problem
[15:03] <Corey> Quite.
[15:05] <alabd> can i(humble) join channel #ubuntu  now ? ikonia
[15:05] <ikonia> alabd: not at this time - I suggest you pickup the problem in #pidgin
[15:06] <alabd> Corey:  do you belive god?
[15:06] <Corey> I fail to see what you stand to gain by persisting, alabd. :-/
[15:07] <alabd> tell how is this question related to pidgin
[15:07] <alabd> Corey why is it offtopic , ?writting a script in ubuntu#  is offtopic ? a script that can log  times  ?(yes it will be used by pidigin but not related to pidgin at all )
[15:07] <ikonia> alabd: enough - if you ever wish to be unbanned - leave this channel and take a break, you can pick this up in #pidgin
[15:07] <Corey> Round and round we go.
[15:07] <ikonia> alabd: if you persist in arguing futher to waste time I will leave the ban on longer, stop wasting time, leave and take a break, #pidgin is available to you
[15:08] <alabd> no you cached my time  ikonia 2 - it is not related to pidgin at all
[15:08] <ikonia> alabd: if the script is non-pidgin specific try #bash
[15:08] <ikonia> alabd: ok - not pidgin related, use #bash for your scripting help
[15:09] <alabd> Corey: bash question in ubuntu is offtopic ?
[15:09] <ikonia> alabd: I'm talking to you here - I suggest you focus
[15:09] <ikonia> alabd: bash scripting support is in #bash - pidgin scripting support in #pidgin, I suggest using one of those channels
[15:10] <alabd> ikonia:  you say it is offopic  let Corey judge if it is or not , Corey: is asking a simple bash question in #ubuntu offtopic ?
[15:10] <Tm_T> alabd: in this case yes
[15:10] <Pici> alabd: Corey is freenode staff, he isn't an Ubuntu op. Hes trying to catalyze this situation.
[15:11] <Corey> alabd: The way you're doing it? Absolutely.
[15:11] <alabd> Tm_T eould you tell which which case ?
[15:12] <ikonia> alabd: no
[15:12] <ikonia> you asked Corey - he's told you, enough time has been wated now
[15:12] <ikonia> alabd: if you want this ban removing, this is the only time I'll ask you now, leave this channel and take a break
[15:12] <alabd> ikonia:  no Corey did not answer me , let them talk
[15:12] <ikonia> alabd: come back in a day or two and we can resolve this, if you can't comply
[15:12] <Corey> alabd: I just did!
[15:12] <ikonia> alabd: no - enough time has been wasted, it's not a poll
[15:12] <alabd> real;y if it is so i(humble ) should what is offtopic
[15:13] <alabd> (06:41:09 PM) Corey: alabd: The way you're doing it? Absolutely.
[15:13] <alabd> this is a question
[15:13] <alabd> and has question sign
[15:13] <ikonia> alabd: ok the ban can stay, I'm going to contact the irc community council to make this a perminent ban as you seem to be unable to follow instructions and persist in arguing
[15:13] <alabd> Pici:  told you are not ubuntu staff
[15:13] <Corey> Oh, that's right-- India has that weird half-timezone, doesn't it...
[15:13] <Corey> Either that or your system clock is WAY off.
[15:14] <alabd> some one juust tell my why it is offtopi , just want to know really can not get why  ?" a script that can log  times  "
[15:14] <ikonia> alabd: let me tell you why it's offtopic
[15:15] <alabd> thanks tell me
[15:15] <ikonia> alabd: ubuntu supports the ubuntu operating system - #pidgin supports the pidgin application #bash supports the bash scripting language, you want to use bash (#bash) with the pidgin (#pidgin) application, nothing to do with the ubuntu operating system
[15:16] <ikonia> hence why you keep being pointed at the places that supports the tools and applications you want help with
[15:18] <ikonia> alabd: anything else ?
[15:18] <alabd> ok , another I(humble) come and see how 1500 users in channel are asking .. if someone asked a simple scripting question , a op should come and ban him/her , ok
[15:18] <ikonia> alabd: if they persist in asking oftopic questions, they would get banned and have been banned
[15:19] <alabd> another thing is that you told me it is pidgin question and i (humble) was telling you that it is not pidgin querstion that you banned me ,
[15:20] <ikonia> alabd: yes, I told you it is a pidgin question and I still think it is, however to be helpful I've also pointed you at #bash to assist you
[15:23] <ikonia> alabd: I think we are done now, so please leave this channel
[15:24] <alabd> no it is bash question , anyway thanks , you know i(humble) believe  that if another person has asked this question you would not ban him/her , judge yourself behavior , you are the only person that check my behavior and are ready to ban me , I(Humble) wish you ban me each time for rules not yourself
[15:24] <alabd> Pici:  Tm_T Corey thank you Allah bless you
[15:41] <charlie-tca> ban
[15:41] <charlie-tca> no,
[15:42] <genii-around> Hm
[15:42] <charlie-tca> mistake
[15:42] <ikonia> ?
[15:44] <charlie-tca> trying to search
[15:44] <charlie-tca> I want to know what I did wrong with the ban in #xubuntu
[15:45] <Pici> charlie-tca: Well, that will only ban them if they're coming in via the web gateway.
[15:45] <charlie-tca> they were
[15:46] <charlie-tca> but it seems like 5 minutes from command to them leaving is way too long
[15:47] <Pici> charlie-tca: you didn't remove them, people are free to stay in a channel when they've been banned if they were there when the mode was set.
[15:47] <charlie-tca> Oh, then I did okay
[17:28] <Corey> Ah good, he left on his own.
[17:29] <jussi> Corey: what happened to kb1ksdfjklsdjkflösdjaköl? (ok, I admit, bit over the top :P)
[17:29] <Corey> jussi: He went back to Scandinavia? :-)
[17:29] <jussi> hah!
[17:30] <Corey> No, another user from the KB1 region became active and we both started getting mistabs for each other in a few channels.
[17:30] <jussi> ahh
[17:30] <Corey> jussi: The funny part is that his name is Corey too.
[17:30] <jussi> heh! nice
[17:56] <alabd> Pici: hello , if you remember some hours ago ikonia banned me from #ubuntu , his/her reason was that my question "how to write a script that can log what times the script has been run ?"  was offtopic and should be asked in #bash , I(humble) asked exactly this question in #bash and someone answered me "(07:30:15 PM) neurolysis: alabd: date >> file? "   ....this small and simple answer solved my problem , as an OP , do you think this answer should not be
[17:57] <Pici> alabd: I'm about to head into a meeting.  I don't have the time at the moment to deal with any IRC related things, sorry.
[17:58] <LjL> alabd: i don't think that question is too offtopic, although it's probably better asked in #bash
[18:00] <alabd> LjL: thanks for being honest , do you think what should i(humble) do with ikonia-  ? to undestand him/her not ban me for any reeason in #ubuntu , infact he/she caches my time this way , what should i(humble) do with him/her ?
[18:01] <LjL> alabd: well, the question may have been not-too-offtopic, but if ikonia asked you to ask it in #bash, and you still insisted and argued... well, that's not a good idea (i haven't read the logs yet - just guessing)
[18:05] <Tm_T> yes, plenty of arguing without any interest to listen
[18:05] <alabd> LjL:  in fact my question first time was in mood that he/she thought that question is related to pidgin and asked me go to #pidgin , i(humble) was explaining to him/her not to ask me this and question is not related to #pidgin but he/she banned me , and after banning me in this channel he understood that question was related to #bash  , you may check logs this is exactly what happened .
[18:06] <Tm_T> alabd: harvesting "votes" won't change the fact you're banned
[18:10] <LjL> !appeals | alabd
[18:10] <alabd> Tm_T thanks for your attention , but would you let LjL judge if that fact was right or wrong ? if it was not true behavior  ..someone should solve this  problem why someone want ban a user with Trivial reasons  and be sure LjL will be RIGHTEOU and trust another OP ,
[18:10] <LjL> alabd: you may follow the process to get yourself unbanned if you don't find an agreement with ikonia or if you believe this needs further action
[18:13] <alabd> LjL: would ask him/her ? maybe he/she says what's reason of his behaviors ? you know this is not normal behavior as honest person that a person be banned only by a specific OP and this is one of them and you see how it has been done
[18:14] <LjL> alabd: actually i see you've been previously banned by *several* ops
[18:14] <LjL> alabd: even if we assume that this specific ban has been overzealous, don't you think there is some problem on your side?
[18:15] <alabd> no in #ubuntu methink just was ikonia
[18:15] <alabd> and you should ikonia  is in many channels ,
[18:15] <popey> You have, and it's been escalated to the Community Council in the past
[18:15] <popey> you are not without blame and issue here alabd
[18:15] <alabd> and before he/she made me problem there
[18:16] <LjL> alabd: maybe not in #ubuntu, but several times in #ubuntu-ops
[18:16] <LjL> and when that happens it's usually pretty serious
[18:16] <alabd> LjL: yes i(humble) accept that my questions some times were offtopic in past
[18:16] <alabd> but now story is different
[18:17] <alabd> i(humble) try to not ask offtopic questions
[18:17] <alabd> and you see this time in fact it was not a real offtopic
[18:17] <alabd> answer was just > date >> file
[18:18] <LjL> alabd: well, a specific event cannot and should not be separated from previous relevant events. if you've been banned multiple times in the past, then you should expect to be banned more quickly the next time. do you understand that?
[18:18] <popey> alabd: just because the answer was simple, doesn't make it _not_ offtopic
[18:18] <alabd> yes but how fast
[18:18] <LjL> alabd, maybe that was the answer, but i have to say that the question made it very complicated to understand
[18:18] <alabd> yes you are right
[18:19] <alabd> but don't you think this way is a little  non-SQUARE ?
[18:19] <alabd> and overcharge for me
[18:19] <LjL> alabd: i think that the ban was a bit overzealous this time, but i can understand that, if ikonia looked at all the previous bans, he might have thought "let's not waste time with this" :\
[18:20] <alabd> yes i(humble) also understand ikonia
[18:20] <LjL> alabd: so really i think you should wait for ikonia and talk to him and try to explain that you were simply trying to answer his question about what you were trying to do.
[18:21] <alabd> and you know really if i(humble) was arguing with him/her it was cause that in fact it was not related to pidgin channel and himslef/herself knows that now
[18:23] <LjL> alabd: i honestly don't think you were arguing, i think you were trying to explain why you thought it wasn't offtopic, but did it a bit badly. a suggestion for you... next time you can just move it to PM, if someone tells you something is offtopic but you don't agree
[18:24] <alabd> right
[18:25] <alabd> and i(humble) accept that ikonia should be SENSITIVE to my behavior but he/she should not overcharge me and have extortion about me , and Justice should be complied with any person even a person that is theft  .
[18:30] <alabd> now i(humble) will be so thankful if you talk to him/her remove ban soon because of Justice , and  ask him/her if there is issues like this between me and him/her let me explain my reason in PM ,despite i(humble) will try to ask questions in best place even it's not offtopic 100%
[18:31] <Tm_T> alabd: to not waste our time further on this: proceed to the next step on the appeal process, no amount of discussion here will change your ban this time
[18:35] <alabd> Tm_T your behavior is not DECORUM  at least honor LjL  ,  but ok i(humble) leave channel , LjL thanks a lot for your attention , and will be so thankful  if you talk and say above materials to ikonia , Allah bless you and bye
[18:36] <LjL> tough stuff
[18:45] <jpds> wut
[19:03] <ikonia> utter crap
[19:03] <ikonia> the guy just waits for someone to agree with him slightly and ignores everything else,
[19:03] <ikonia> LjL has been reasonable and given a balanced view so he is now "the only one" to deal with it, rather than anyone else who disagreed
[19:04] <ikonia> for the record I banned him because once again he refused to follow any form of direction, went back to his cross posting rubbish and was told the answer in several channels
[19:04] <ikonia> (sorry was away from keyboard when he came in)
[20:00] <Pici> How pleasant.
[20:00] <ikonia> you meay wish to activate in #ubuntu-devel
[20:01] <pozic> Is there anyone who can undo my recent ban? ikonia couldn't handle being stepped on his toes.
[20:03] <pozic> Situation: I ask a well-defined question. Result: ikonia keeps whining about all kinds of stuff. End result: I fix it myself and give ikonia to give the advice to just keep his mouth shut with worthless 'advice' (spam) and I get banned.
[20:03] <pozic> You should not give @ rights to everyone.
[20:03] <Pici> pozic: We don't.  Let me take a look at the scrollback. One moment.
[20:03] <pozic> It has already been undone, I see now.
[20:04] <Pici> Looks like its still active to me.
[20:04] <pozic> Ok, I looked a bit too quickly.
[20:04] <pozic> It is indeed still there.
[20:06] <pozic> Please, tell me why ikonia is qualified to have an @.
[20:07] <Pici> pozic: Hmm.. This is how I see it:  You asked about using a newer version, a few people answered you, but ikonia inquired further. He suggested that you read the release notes and make sure you understand any issues that may develop by installing the new drivers.
[20:07] <pozic> I have seen no showing of superior technical knowledge, no special leadership skills, no conflict resolution skills, nothing.
[20:07] <Pici> From just that you starting going on about not having technical experience.
[20:07] <Pici> Did I miss something?
[20:08] <ikonia> nhope
[20:08] <ikonia> nope
[20:08] <pozic> Pici: I think you missed the part where ikonia does not just answer the question.
[20:08] <pozic> Pici: he decides that certain pieces of information are important.
[20:08] <pozic> Pici: they might be for him, but I am the one asking the question, no?
[20:08] <Pici> pozic: Two other people answered, one of them included the same question that ikonia had.
[20:09] <pozic> Pici: ikonia continued.
[20:09] <pozic> He kept hammering his little irrelevant points.
[20:09] <pozic> At that point it becomes annoying.
[20:10] <Pici> I think this sums up ikonia's reponse nicely "I'm here to advise/help you not waste it, hence why it's worth checking if your problem is fixed in the new versions"
[20:11] <pozic> Checking whether something is fixed involves an hour of work.
[20:11] <pozic> It might not even be documented.
[20:11] <pozic> There might be other reasons why it stopped working partially.
[20:11] <pozic> IMO, it was inefficient advice.
[20:12] <pozic> And again, I decide what questions to ask.
[20:12] <pozic> If he doesn't want to answer them, he should just say nothing.
[20:12] <pozic> I do not need unwanted advise.
[20:12] <Pici> pozic: And we want to make sure that you don't come back into the channel claiming that ikonia told you to install the drivers from nvidia's site and now you can't boot.
[20:12] <Pici> Because that happens enough.
[20:13] <pozic> I said a million times that I wanted it from the ppa.
[20:13] <pozic> People install the stuff from nvidia's site when Ubuntu fucks up.
[20:13] <Pici> pozic: Mind the language, I was just providing an example.
[20:13] <pozic> I do not understand you fail to understand that basic logic.
[20:13] <LjL> pozic: so you get the right to decide what to ask but other people don't get the right to decide how to answer?
[20:13] <pozic> Now, it happens that Ubuntu did not mess that particular point up in the past 6 months or more or so.
[20:14] <Pici> We try to make sure that people are doing the right steps to fix the problems.
[20:14] <pozic> LjL: they do not answer. They ask a question.
[20:14] <LjL> pozic: that can be a very valid way to answer
[20:14] <pozic> LjL: I disagree. It only is useful when the user has no idea what he is talking about.
[20:14] <pozic> In this case, I could be the one working at nvidia writing Linux kernel drivers.
[20:15] <TheEvilPhoenix> question about ubottu factoids...
[20:15] <ikonia> TheEvilPhoenix: can you give us a minute please
[20:15] <pozic> I don't want other people deciding for me what they think I asked.
[20:15] <TheEvilPhoenix> ikonia:  sure
[20:15] <pozic> I just want them answer questions like a smart machine would do.
[20:15] <ikonia> thanks
[20:15] <pozic> If they do not want to do that, then just do not interact with me.
[20:16] <LjL> pozic: or alternatively, you get banned from the channel for having unreasonable expectations of what volunteers "must" do.
[20:16] <pozic> LjL: they must either shut up or give a signal, not produce noise.
[20:16] <charlie-tca> too bad these are people, not robots
[20:16] <pozic> ikonia produced noise.
[20:17] <pozic> charlie-tca: indeed, robots would be so much faster and would have less drama.
[20:17] <LjL> pozic: you're the one calling alternative routes/suggestions "noise", we don't have to agree with that, and i'm especially tempted to *strongly disagree* after you claim that you want people to answer like machines.
[20:17] <pozic> And yes, I know you were not being serious.
[20:17] <LjL> pozic: then please feel free to create a channel with robots
[20:17] <LjL> #ubuntu is a channel with human volunteers
[20:17] <pozic> More like a channel in which people with less than stellar skills have @.
[20:18] <Pici> pozic: May I point out that you could of just said something to the effect of "thanks, but no thanks". There is no excuse for bad behavior.
[20:18] <pozic> I think one should have respect for @ people.
[20:18] <pozic> In this case, there is just no basis for such respect.
[20:18] <Seveas> hello
[20:18] <LjL> oh good lord
[20:18] <Tm_T> no, just Seveas
[20:19] <LjL> =)
[20:19] <Seveas> Do you mind if my bot (Microbot) idles in #ubuntu? It cannot spam and does not log anything publicly. I'd like to let it idle there to see how well it handles large channels
[20:20] <Pici> pozic: I'm sorry, if your not going to be willing to respect everyone in our channel then I'm afraid that we will not be lifting the ban at this time.  I suggest that you read our guidelines: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines in the meantime.
[20:22] <IdleOne> Hi hunny, I'm home.
[20:23] <TheEvilPhoenix> so if that issue's done, can i ask my question about the factoids?
[20:24] <topyli> Seveas: what *does* it do then :)
[20:24] <Pici> pozic: If theres nothing else, we have a no-idling rule in this channel.  If you don't like the outcome of what we've discussed, you're free to take a look at our appeals page.
[20:24] <Pici> !appeals > pozic
[20:24] <Pici> TheEvilPhoenix: I suppose
[20:24] <Seveas> topyli, currently not much. It can lart and some other silly things, but only in its own channel
[20:24] <TheEvilPhoenix> why don't the distribution factoids (for example, !8.04) show server-version EOL dates?
[20:25] <TheEvilPhoenix> it shows the desktop edition EOL dates for 8.04, but doesnt include anything about server editions
[20:25] <Pici> TheEvilPhoenix: Because those dates aren't coming up anytime soon ;)
[20:25] <pozic> Pici: ikonia does not respect me, because he wastes my time.
[20:25] <pozic> Pici: I do not see why I should respect such persons.
[20:25] <TheEvilPhoenix> Pici:  ah, that explains it
[20:26] <pozic> Respect is a mutual thing that needs to be earned.
[20:26] <TheEvilPhoenix> i had another question... just forgot it... i'll probably be back if I remember it...
[20:26] <topyli> Seveas: let it join. with the caveat that if the ircc members who actually understand this stuff disagrees, we'll ask you to remove it
[20:27] <Seveas> heh
[20:27] <Seveas> sounds reasonable
[20:28] <topyli> .)
[20:28] <pozic> Essentially, you are discriminating people that know better than @ people.
[20:28] <pozic> Ubuntu, for all mediocre people.
[20:28] <jussi> Seveas: Im here for a sec, on principle, if its quiet, all good - however, Id like to know why you wish to put it there.
[20:28] <LjL> he said why, because he wants to test it on a channel with lots of people
[20:28] <jussi> oh, scrollback ftw
[20:29] <pozic> How long before only mentally retarded people are allowed to enter #ubuntu?
[20:29] <Seveas> more people == more corner cases of the irc protocol == finding more bugs in my code
[20:29] <LjL> and we know very well your code is riddled with bugs
[20:29] <jussi> Seveas: no probs. if it talks, we will remove it :)
[20:30] <Seveas> jussi, I'd appreciate it if you let me know. One bug I can't see happening is it talking in #ubuntu :)
[20:30] <jussi> Seveas: yeah, we will do that. thanks for coming by and asking :)
[20:30]  * LjL prepares to spend the next week trying to exploit it
[20:30] <topyli> haha
[20:31] <jussi> LjL: be good now :P
[20:31] <IdleOne> LjL: who are we taking down this week?
[20:31] <pozic> God, are there also only morons over here?
[20:31] <IdleOne> I mean helping bot test
[20:31] <Seveas> LjL, have fun. #microbot would be the place to try that :)
[20:31] <IdleOne> popey: Please be respectful.
[20:31] <IdleOne> errr
[20:31] <IdleOne> pozic:
[20:32]  * LjL boos at himself for not being able to set up PartyBot before tomorrow night
[20:32] <ikonia> LjL: why can't you set it up ?
[20:32] <LjL> ikonia: 'cause i'm not at home, and my server is only reachable from there
[20:32] <ikonia> darn
[20:33] <pozic> So, why exactly have I been banned?
[20:33] <pozic> AFAIK, it is just a matter of riding over someones' dick.
[20:33] <ikonia> pozic: offensive attitude and rude behaviour
[20:34] <LjL> which you're showing again right now
[20:34] <ikonia> you've been warned about the language - stop it, now if you want to actually discuss anything
[20:34] <pozic> Offensive... you mean that I just knew better what I was talking about.
[20:34] <pozic> You are the one declaring war.
[20:34] <ikonia> pozic: I think we're done here - good bye,
[20:34] <pozic> You abused your @ powers.
[20:35] <pozic> Why would I show any respect towards ikonia then?
[20:35] <IdleOne> pozic: if you feel that way please see the link Pici provided about !appeals
[20:35] <maco> You are to respect everyone within our channels
[20:35] <Jordan_U> pozic: When multiple people tell you that you are out of line (many of whom BTW are developers of much of the software you are using) you should really reconsider the possibility that they have a valid point.
[20:35] <pozic> maco: uhm, do you respect the bot?
[20:35] <pozic> maco: so, you do not respect everyone.
[20:35] <LjL> of course we respect the bot
[20:35] <maco> well i don't tend to do much bot abuse
[20:35] <pozic> Do you respect people saying adasdasdjkafksdhfkjsdhfkjdfhksjfhkdsj?
[20:36] <pozic> No, you do not.
[20:36] <ikonia> pozic: time to leave
[20:36] <maco> We remove people who are being disrespectful in that and various other ways
[20:36] <Pici> pozic: I don't see this conversation being any more productive at this time.  I've given you the links to pursue if you wish to continie.
[20:36] <pozic> Jordan_U: FYI, I think almost all software sucks.
[20:36] <pozic> Jordan_U: the kernel developers do somewhat useful development (it does not crash a lot).
[20:37] <pozic> Jordan_U: otherwise it is mostly sub par quality.
[20:37] <ikonia> pozic: please leave the channel now
[20:37] <Pici> Thats nice. Anyway, have a nice day.
[20:37] <pozic> Clearly you want to breed a community of idiots.
[20:37] <Pici> toodles
[20:38] <maco> idiots isn't a nice word :( and neither was "morons" earlier
[20:38] <charlie-tca> Most of what that individual said was not nice
[20:38] <jrib> nope
[20:39] <Pici> Hm.  Now threatening ban evasion in pm.
[20:39] <LjL> not unexpected
[20:39] <Jordan_U> And yet we did interact with them respectfully.
[20:39] <LjL> he did talk about "declaring war"
[20:39] <Pici> LjL: Yeah, I expected as much.
[20:40] <Jordan_U> Maybe civility is a better term than respect though ;)
[21:06] <IdleOne> Churchill was a master of being civil all the while being disrespectful.
[21:06] <IdleOne> s/of/at/
[21:07] <IdleOne> a little of both would be great. A lot would be better
[21:14] <IdleOne> is LarsTorben banned in -ot?
[21:14] <IdleOne> aka larsto
[21:14] <LjL> pici said no
[21:14] <IdleOne> last week he was iirc
[21:14] <IdleOne> in that case he is ban evading.
[21:20] <ikonia> he's an odd ball, messages me with odd messages
[21:54] <topyli> i don't think he's banned in -ot
[21:55] <topyli> uh, should perhaps look at timestamps before "joining" discussions
[21:55] <ikonia> ?
[21:56] <topyli> well you were discussing whether or not larsto is banned in -ot three quarters ago. he's not even in the channel anymore
[21:59] <ikonia> ah
[22:02] <larstor> ikonia
[22:03] <ikonia> hello
[22:03] <larstor> why ban nd me
[22:03] <larstor> on ubuntu-offtopic
[22:04] <ikonia> larstor: it may have been a mistake, but also I'm just seeing the same thing just repeated from you day after day
[22:04] <ikonia> larstor: if you can hang on for a moment I'll check if it was my mistake
[22:04] <ikonia> @btlogin
[22:05] <larstor> ok
[22:05] <larstor> well, i talked why bazhang, i told him, it is my neibourghs which are so repating
[22:05] <ikonia> no - it was you
[22:05] <larstor> no
[22:05] <larstor> for example gurke
[22:06] <ikonia> you joined today and kept asking about 11.04 on a production machine, which you've done many times
[22:06] <larstor> no my neighbours
[22:06] <ikonia> so lets stop messing around - it's you
[22:06] <larstor> no
[22:06] <larstor> today ?!?!
[22:06] <ikonia> ok then in that case, you can stay banned until you can secure your network from your neighbours
[22:06] <maco> why not put a password on your wireless?
[22:06] <larstor> maco !! it isnt are wireless !!
[22:06] <ikonia> larstor: no problem then you can stay banned until you can secure your network
[22:06] <larstor> i already said it
[22:06] <larstor> okay, ikonia
[22:07] <larstor> i will tell them
[22:07] <ikonia> ok
[22:07] <larstor> i will go there now, and coming back later here and tell youu
[22:07] <ikonia> sorry - we'll need proof your network has been secured
[22:08] <ikonia> we'll leave the ban in place for a while and make sure no-more problems happen
[22:08] <larstor> what ?
[22:08] <ikonia> we'll leave the ban in place for a while and make sure no-more problems happen
[22:08] <larstor> ah ok
[22:08] <larstor> !repeat
[22:08] <larstor> :D
[22:08] <larstor> then okay
[22:12] <ikonia> isn't m00se banned in #ubuntu-offtopic ?
[22:12] <Flannel> I don't see anything in the BT about him
[22:13] <ikonia> he's changed his cloak
[22:13] <ikonia> moose~robinetd@unaffiliated/robinetd
[22:13] <ikonia> it's the same guy
[22:13] <ikonia> *!*@unaffiliated/robinetd
[22:13] <Flannel> Then yes, he is banned.
[22:14] <ikonia> mrmist: you there ?
[22:14] <mrmist> hmm?
[22:14] <ikonia> I'll confirm with staff
[22:14] <ikonia> (if possible)
[22:14] <ikonia> mrmist: are you allowed to confirm if someone is the same user
[22:15] <Flannel> If they're really the same person, they've been the same person on two accounts for a while
[22:16] <mrmist> if who is the same as who?
[22:16] <ikonia> he's showing up in my pm as using the same ISP as robinetd and I've got robinetd changing nicknames to moose
[22:16] <mrmist> (and probably not)
[22:16] <Flannel> moose, but not m00se from what I can tell.
[22:16] <ikonia> mrmist: the user who had the cloak *!*@unaffiliated/robinetd  I believe is  m00se [~yea@unaffiliated/m00se] ban dodging
[22:16] <ikonia> Flannel: true, but the isp is showing up the same also
[22:16] <ikonia> and the channels he's using
[22:17] <ikonia> and the language/conversational style in those channels looking at the logs
[22:18] <ikonia> mrmist: sorry to pick on you, I saw you active in #freenode
[22:19] <LjL> ikonia: no
[22:19] <LjL> i know both robinetd and m00se
[22:19] <LjL> they are not the same person
[22:19] <mrmist> I can't confirm that hey are the same, but if you have collected enough evidence on your own I wouldn't have thought such confirmation necessary.  You can also likely see /ns info moose yourself. (Which would not be /ns info m00se)
[22:19] <ikonia> LjL: thanks
[22:20] <mrmist> It's probably more important to ponder "what behaviour is this chap showing now" than "is this x trying to ban-evade"
[22:21] <mrmist> ban evading is cheap, after all.
[22:21] <ikonia> mrmist: he's been silent in the ubuntu channels which in it's self is fine however if it was moose I didn't want him even there
[22:22] <mrmist> I see.  Well, silence is golden, but that is of course entirely up to you :)
[22:22] <ikonia> LjL's just confirmed it's not the same guy, so not a problem
[22:23] <mrmist> *nod*
[22:27] <elky> mrmist, moose is one of the ones who operates silently while in possession of a who list that doesn't require effort to keep up-to-date.
[22:27] <elky> As in, being a "catalyst"... in the wrong way.
[22:28] <mrmist> ahh
[23:03] <ikonia> I'm really not looking forward to 11.04 with unity/gnome3 issues
[23:04] <Pici> no one is
[23:08] <popey> :S