/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/26/#ubuntu-us-ca.txt

projectdpso quiet02:02
* pleia2 waves02:02
* seidos rides pleia2's wave02:05
seidosanyone know the syntax for sending a /me in an irssi perl script?02:06
pleia2action02:07
pleia2so instead of /me you'd do "action #channel does cartwheels"02:08
pleia2http://princessleia.com/modular_r2d2.php has a bunch of irssi scripts I wrote in 2003 or something02:08
seidosah, action02:09
pleia2scripts.irssi.org is also super useful for examples02:09
seidoslemme try that02:09
seidosyeah, already there02:09
pleia2cool02:10
seidossearching it though was taking a long time02:10
* pleia2 nods02:10
seidosgoooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal02:11
seidosthanks02:11
pleia2welcome :)02:11
projectdpoh wow that's an awesome site hahah02:14
projectdphi akk02:43
akkhi02:44
seidoshmmm, that's kind of disturbing that i couldn't find documentation for the action syntax03:25
pleia2not really, irssi is poorly documented03:25
seidosso then it's less than "kind of" disturbing?03:25
seidoslike, not disturbing at all?03:26
seidosi guess most people do the word of mouth thing03:26
pleia2I don't know that I'd call lack of documentation for an open source project "disturbing" at all :) it's quite common03:26
seidoshunger is quite common :/03:26
pleia2I'd hardly equate human suffering with lack of documentation03:27
seidosthere are different levels of suffering, lack of documentation is one of them03:27
pleia2doesn't hit my "disturbing" meter though, YMMV03:28
seidosdoes it hit anything?03:28
pleia2just my typical "ah open source and it's lack of documentation"03:29
akkHey, it's suffering -- just in a "first world problems" sense. :)03:29
seidosactually, i thought this was a pretty good link:  http://www.irssi.org/documentation/perl03:30
* akk is busy writing up a blog post about how much I've suffered trying to write a web app for android03:30
akk(poor me :)03:30
seidosit was just missing something specific on "action"03:30
sn9isn't the action syntax just "/me does this" ?03:31
seidossn9: apparently not03:31
seidosi gave the old "/me does this" a try, it's in perl fyi03:31
seidosusing Irssi module03:31
seidospleia2: did you see "action" used in an existin script?  sample script?03:32
pleia2probably in an existing script03:32
seidosis that how you learned it?03:32
seidosah...hmmm03:32
seidosoh yeah, i got wireless from terminal working, took "a few" tries03:34
seidosthe arch wiki didn't quite cut it03:34
seidosbut it did help03:34
sn9/action does this03:34
* sn9 does this03:34
seidosso /me is an alias i guess?03:35
sn9should be03:35
seidosthat wasn't included in the Irssi module i guess03:35
seidoswell, i'll use action from now on, "me" wasn't a command that worked.  i'm sure i tried everything correctly03:36
seidosthat is interesting, i must've got stuck with the /me from my mirc days or something03:37
seidosmaybe everyone has been using /action except for me03:37
seidosT_T03:37
* pleia2 uses /me03:37
seidosme me me, like Agent Smith03:38
seidos/me is shorter03:38
seidosquicker, more efficient03:38
seidosi'm considering downloading all the files on scripts.irssi.org, then using grep to find syntax i need03:39
akkNot a bad idea, assuming it doesn't take forever to download them all.03:41
seidosit shouldn't take more than 10 min i guess03:53
seidoshow fast is your connection akk ?03:53
seidosbut i'll let you know :P03:53
seidosi'm not really in a hurry though03:53
seidosjust be nice to have it cached03:53
akkseidos: Not super fast -- it's DSL, not cable.03:53
akkAnd we're in a backwater on the edge of San Jose.03:54
seidosah03:54
seidoswow, 824 files in 1m6s 239K/s04:13
seidosthere is a problem with internet infrastructure04:13
seidoswhich is...well...kind of sad04:13
seidosi wish i knew more about the technology04:15
seidosblah blah blah04:16
projectdphm, i'm also in SJ04:19
seidosi probably should be in san jose04:20
seidoswell, there's some foss activity here04:20
=== sn9 is now known as DrStrangelove
=== DrStrangelove is now known as sn9
projectdpseidos: what foss activity is there here?17:02
seidosprojectdp: you mean in so. cal?17:02
pleia2projectdp: http://linuxmafia.com/bale/ include san jose and the surrounding area17:03
iheartubuntuI thought this was interesting... an Open Source Ecology idea (TED Talk 2011) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIsHKrP-66s17:03
iheartubuntuand do I see an Ubuntu laptop at 2 min 10 sec?17:03
seidosi like what the chicago loco did17:04
seidosmade a loco out of a city17:04
seidosi'm sure this has been beaten to death though17:04
seidosa long time ago in a galaxy far far away17:04
projectdpcool17:06
projectdpthanks pleia2, i just emailed the svbug people :)17:06
pleia2seidos: yeah, ubuntu chicago was established a long time ago when city locos were allowed to be approved17:07
pleia2usually locos are *country* wide, the US was allowed to do by state17:07
pleia2works out nicely because then the whole state can benefit from active cities17:08
seidosmhm17:08
seidoshopefully i can get more activity here in LA17:09
akkIt can get a little tricky in big states like CA, though, where people are so far apart.17:09
seidosah, sad, my wireless terminal stuff doesn't handle sleep so well17:09
pleia2yeah, we all just do our own local things, even in "small" states it can be a 3 hour drive across the state :)17:10
seidosthe paradoxical sacred and profane17:10
seidosit's great, and not so great17:10
projectdpcool video iheartubuntu17:13
projectdpakk: are you talking about emotionally apart?17:14
akkprojectdp: No, just physically.17:14
projectdpreally it seems like we have higher person-proximity density than most other places.17:15
akkI grew up in SoCal, live in NorCal now, so I just laugh at the whole rivalry thing.17:15
akkI like both parts.17:15
projectdpme too i'm here now too :)17:15
akkAnd they're not that different except when NorCalians start going all "ooh <shudder> WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE LA!"17:15
seidosthe only gripe i have with LA is the car culture17:16
akkor THEY'RE STEALING OUR WATER, THOSE EVIL LA PEOPLE17:17
projectdpheh17:17
akkseidos: How is the bay area not a car culture, outside of downtown SF and Berkeley/Oakland?17:17
seidosi wonder if folks in colorado ever think "those californians are stealing our water"17:17
projectdpwell it's kind of like a desert. and they try to keep it green17:17
akkGood question, seidos.17:17
projectdpakk: we're not as much of a car culture as LA come on..17:18
seidosakk: BART i think is nicer than the light rail here17:18
akkseidos: BART? I live in the south bay, what is this BART you speak of?17:18
projectdpmaybe in 10 yrs akk17:18
seidosakk: you know, annoying little kid on the Simpsons17:18
akkheh17:18
seidosi suspect quantifying the difference probably isn't easy17:19
seidosif we compare downtown LA to SF city17:19
seidoshmmm, yeah, it's probably totally an illusion17:19
projectdpnot entirely17:20
akkI'd say downtown SF is definitely less car oriented than downtown LA. But the outlying areas are pretty comparable, really.17:20
iheartubuntuBART used to appear so modern to me as a child. now it has lost that viewpoint IMO. still looks nice tho17:20
projectdpwe have some semblance of a public transportation cutlure17:20
projectdpculture*17:20
* iheartubuntu waits for the goldline metro to arrive near my house17:20
akkI try to take transit every now and then, and I find it very difficult and expensive starting from the south bay.17:21
projectdpit's one of the only systems in the state like it17:21
projectdpauto-best17:21
projectdpeven though it sucks compared to all of europe17:21
akkOr any east coast US city.17:22
akkOr Portland or Seattle (not sure about Seattle, been a long time)17:22
iheartubuntui have always either flown in and taken public trans in SF or driven in, parked the car in a lot and used public trans while in SF17:22
iheartubuntubut last time I was in SF for a long weekend I drove the car around a lot and saw much more than i thought was possible :)17:23
akkSure, within the city of SF it's fine. The bay area is not SF.17:23
projectdpi've only done that a handful of times to LA17:23
seidosthat's pretty cool, i probably should do that next time, i didn't know where to park the car17:23
projectdpand it's much more annoying17:23
seidosi took Bart to Berkeley from SF17:23
seidoswasn't too bad17:23
seidoswasn't too great either, i think it took an hour17:23
projectdploud in that section huh17:23
akkyeah, as I said earlier, SF, Berkeley and Oakland.17:23
akkIf you only ever go to the cores of the big cities you're fine.17:24
iheartubuntuive always stayed at like thepowellhotel.com and parked under union square (the hotel used to give free parking passes)17:24
akkOr a few outlying places that happen to be on a BART line.17:24
seidosthat really isn't true here in LA, since it's so big17:24
seidossuburban sprawl is like bacterial growth, and unfortunately, public transit doesn't automatically grow with it17:24
akkLA is certainly bigger than the bay area, but the bay area is HUGE compared to SF+Berkeley+Oakland.17:24
seidoswell, we have the Inland Empire...17:25
iheartubuntuits not much of an empire17:25
seidosor maybe that's San Diego's17:25
seidosdon't let the emperor here you say it iheartubuntu17:25
iheartubuntuhe has no clothes17:25
seidos*hear17:27
seidoshe's probably involved in some kind of sith group thing17:28
projectdp:)17:30
projectdpwhat are awesome window managers you guys use?18:24
nhainesscreen!18:25
nhainesAlso metacity.18:25
projectdpsmh18:25
projectdptmux is where it's at18:25
projectdpi approve of metacity though18:25
nhainesI remember twm fondly.  Nostalgically, anyway.18:25
projectdphttp://dominik.honnef.co/posts/2010/10/why_you_should_try_tmux_instead_of_screen/18:26
projectdpwhat about applications?18:27
nhainesI use byobu for my screen configuration and it is very handy.18:28
pleia2xfwm (xfce's window manager) and fluxbox18:28
projectdpinteresting i'll look at it18:28
pleia2fluxbox is kinda minimal, I use it on my lower end laptop and on my second desktop whose only job is to be my network firewall and have a web browser18:29
projectdpdoes anyone use headless machines?18:29
pleia2dozens of them18:29
projectdpwith remote desktop?18:30
projectdp+gui?18:30
pleia2no, just ssh18:30
projectdpah18:30
pleia2ssh -X from time to time18:30
pleia2(but mostly that's just desktop to desktop stuff, no GUI on servers)18:30
projectdpcool18:30
projectdpadministrator?18:30
pleia2my job is a linux sysadmin18:31
projectdpsweet18:31
projectdpdo you have rhce?18:31
pleia2no, I use debian and ubuntu18:31
projectdpah, but isn't that /the/ linux admin cert to have?18:31
pleia2you don't have to have any (I don't, but I did help write the ubuntu certified professionals course)18:32
projectdpno one has to have anything18:32
pleia2it's certainly a popular one though18:32
projectdpi thought it was a ticket to a fairly significant salary18:33
nhainesI use headless machines as well.  Just SSH.18:33
pleia2lol18:33
pleia2not at all :)18:33
pleia2some companies look at certs, some are more focused on formal education, some on experience18:33
nhainesCertifications are largely useless in a wide array of applications.18:33
pleia2it helps to have some of each, but nothing is a "ticket" - certainly not a cert18:34
nhainesThat's not to say that they aren't worth taking, but they're not a golden ticket!18:34
pleia2(I lack certs and education, but I make up for it in awesomeness)18:34
pleia2:D18:34
projectdpthats ok too18:34
nhainesI've found that my experience running Ubuntu events and writing has made it really easy to interest new employers.18:35
pleia2yeah18:35
projectdpthe only problem is that there isn't much of an excuse not to represent your skills18:35
pleia2certifications and education are expensive and time consuming, and of negligable benefit if you have experience18:35
projectdpwhy is it time consuming?18:36
pleia2(there are some companies who won't hire you without them, but I don't want to work for that kind of place anyway)18:36
seidosgetting experience isn't always that easy, a lot of the time connections are necessary18:36
pleia2you still have to study18:36
projectdpso you gain benefit from the skill by studying?18:36
pleia2you study for the test, if you have experience you are already competent in the real world18:37
projectdpif you are in the domain for which you are studying you should also be competent in the material to some degree18:38
pleia2but everyone is different, best thing to do is learn how you learn best and get the education, experience, certs for whatever area you're shooting for (an IT job at a traditional corporation may require certs, something at a silicon valley startup typically won't)18:38
pleia2pratical application and test taking are very, very different beasts18:39
pleia2if I forget the exact syntax for fstab when using UUIDs I can do a 3 second google search, can't do that when taking a test18:39
projectdpmany certs have practical elements18:40
projectdpi mean i'm just seeing if there are any arguments that are decent against certs18:40
projectdpmaybe it is negligible standing next to a contact that can land you a job18:41
pleia2it really depends on the person and the work you're looking for18:41
projectdpor when you look at a couple hundred dollars and a few hundred hours of time18:41
projectdpi think so too18:42
projectdpso in what ways would you be jockying for a better position now?18:43
projectdpi'm sure if you've been in the industry you would have a majority of your work represent you18:44
pleia2personally my public open source work and sysadmin experience is plenty for the next few years18:45
pleia2I get contacted by recruiters from impressive companies pretty often18:45
projectdpplenty in terms of things to do?18:45
projectdpi see18:45
projectdpbrb few more questions in a bit :)18:47
iheartubuntuim doing the UCP just to familiarize myself better18:53
iheartubuntumostly terminal commands and such that i dont know or forget easily18:54
projectdpucp?18:54
iheartubuntuUbuntu Certified Professional18:55
iheartubuntuits pretty much the same as LCP - linux cert pro18:55
projectdpi see18:55
iheartubuntuits beren renamed and updated since i started. Its not the Ubuntu Professional Training http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=53318:56
iheartubuntu*been18:56
iheartubuntunow18:56
iheartubuntunot not18:56
iheartubuntugosh im lame lately18:56
iheartubuntuthere is a PDF course overview at the bottom of that link18:57
projectdpcool18:57
iheartubuntu"About the Course and Objectives - The Ubuntu Professional is a training course for system administrators who are18:58
iheartubunturequired to deploy Ubuntu into the office environment."18:58
iheartubuntuThis hands-on course will provide participants with the skills they need to deploy and18:58
iheartubuntuconfigure Ubuntu within the office. It introduces participants to the basic skills18:58
iheartubunturequired of Ubuntu System Administrators.18:58
iheartubuntuScenario-based exercises guide18:58
iheartubuntuparticipants on how to select appropriate solutions and tools for their organisation.18:58
iheartubuntuAfter completing this course, participants will be able to:18:58
iheartubuntuInstall and configure Ubuntu systems18:58
iheartubuntuPerform routine administration tasks; manage user accounts and file systems,18:58
iheartubuntuand maintain system security18:58
iheartubuntuConfigure network connectivity and key network services18:58
iheartubuntuWork productively at the Linux command line18:58
* pleia2 takes paste button away from iheartubuntu 18:59
iheartubuntudone :L|)18:59
iheartubuntu:)18:59
iheartubuntufrankly, just using ubuntu for 5 or 6 years now i know most of that stuff18:59
iheartubuntueven if i have to refresh my memory on commands18:59
iheartubuntuunder "Work productively at the Linux command line" it says not to chat in the California IRC channel or you'll get absolutely nothing done19:00
projectdphaha19:03
projectdp:o19:06
projectdpbyobu is kinda cool19:07
projectdppleia2: no more about certs but how do you get to do linux admin work?19:08
projectdpi'm just curious because i'm just starting in corporate19:09
pleia2projectdp: I applied at a small linux shop that was hiring folks for contract work, was eventually hired full time19:09
pleia2I was involved with the LUG so the owner of the company already knew me19:09
projectdpcool19:09
projectdpbay area?19:10
pleia2nah, philadelphia19:10
projectdpinteresting19:10
pleia2(I was living there at the time)19:10
akkprojectdp: Sometimes you can get started by doing sysadmin on a volunteer basis for projects, or by lower-paid work adminning machines at a college or science lab.19:10
projectdpyeah19:11
projectdpi like server side stuff19:11
pleia2yeah, my volunteer sysadmining was taken into consideration when I was hired, I put all volunteer work on my resume19:11
projectdpdo you have to deal with windows networks?19:13
akkI get the impression there are a lot more jobs available if you know Windows than if you're Unix/Linux only.19:13
akkThough the Unix/Linux only ones are maybe higher status/higher pay (and require more experience).19:14
pleia2projectdp: depends on what you mean by "windows networks" - a lot of the networks our servers are on have windows systems too, usually an IT department that manages an exchange server or something19:14
pleia2but we don't touch them, the most we do is help them with network issue debugging19:14
* pleia2 wouldn't know what to do with a Windows machine19:15
projectdpheh19:15
projectdpi guess i mean active directory microsoft networks19:16
pleia2ah, no19:16
projectdpdo you deal with virtualization?19:18
pleia2yeah, a lot of it19:18
projectdpxen?19:18
pleia2we've got a couple old xen systems around, but everything new is kvm19:18
projectdpah19:18
projectdphardly know anything about that19:19
pleia2kvm is easy to experiment with even on your desktip if you have virtualized hardware19:19
pleia2desktop19:19
projectdpdo you know much about performance given certain hardware on xen or kvm?19:20
pleia2we've only used xen in paravirtualization mode with a hypervisor (hardware doesn't have virtualization, so it's all emulated), kvm is all hardware virtualization, so it's not comparing similar things19:22
pleia2never done benchmarks though19:22
projectdphm19:22
projectdpi was considering using xen in para with a hypervisor to run various os livecds on alien hard drives simultaneously19:23
projectdpi was wondering if it would be very feasible or not very19:23
pleia2with paravirt you need a xen kernel on the guest, so it's difficult19:23
projectdpbut hardware virtualization sounds nicer19:23
pleia2with hardware virtualization the guest doesn't need to know it's a VM, so you can use regular kernels19:24
projectdpalright well i haven't dealt much with this, before i started i wanted to get some opinions19:25
projectdppeople have been saying the hardware shouldn't be an issue19:25
projectdpto scan several disks simultaneously with a couple os'19:25
pleia2if you have hardware virt I'd strongly suggest kvm+libvirt19:25
pleia2but an easy way to start out playing with virtualization is using something like virtualbox19:25
projectdpi don't think that would have the performance would it?19:26
pleia2no, it would be slow19:26
projectdpi mean i really would like something that would be a light hypervisor deal that manages the guest os'19:27
pleia2libvirt kinda fills that role19:27
pleia2https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM is quite good19:27
projectdpoh great, now i'll be buying some hardware :)19:28
pleia2heh, yeah, my desktop is an i7 with 8G/RAM19:28
pleia2I do lots of test stuff on it with kvm virtualization19:28
projectdphow well does it handle running a few os instances19:29
pleia2much nicer than having my bedroom filled up with phyisical machines when I want to test a network infrastructure :)19:29
projectdp?19:29
pleia2does fine19:29
projectdpwell like how many19:29
projectdpand what sort of load19:29
pleia2I've never really pushed it to the limit19:29
projectdpwhat i'd be doing is like defragmenting and doing scans on a bunch of disks19:29
pleia2I've never run windows vms19:30
projectdpwith just some light livecd os's19:30
pleia2eep, conference call time19:30
projectdpthanks pleia219:30
projectdpttyl19:30
nhainesprojectdp: you're going to be defragmenting and scanning multiple disks from CD-based virtual machines on the same host?19:33
projectdpwell they will be basically livecd iso's19:33
projectdpyes19:33
nhainesAny reason not to use an installed OS to run the utilities on the drives?19:35
projectdpyes19:35
projectdpit takes up an entire computer to scan one disk19:35
projectdpi have to do scanning serially19:35
projectdpit sucks.19:35
projectdpand if i do other things in the mean time19:35
projectdpi don't see stupid messages like "click ok to copy this file to backup" or something19:36
projectdpwasting like 10 mins to a few hours19:36
projectdpif i leave it over night or lunch19:36
projectdpand i'm pretty sure it's not cpu intensive activity19:37
projectdpand even if it was i think todays computers would do ok.19:37
projectdpand now that i look at it, kvm was already suggested to me casually heh19:39
nhainesSo you're going to take a I/O-intensive operation, add a hypervisor, load multiple virtual machines, and run everything across the same system bus in parallel, with the expectation that this will make things faster?19:39
projectdpi have no idea, thats why i was asking about feasibility on hardware19:40
projectdpgiven the virtualization constraint19:40
nhainesWhy not just run the utility in parallel on the host OS?19:41
projectdpbecause it's not one utility19:41
nhainesWhy not run the suite of utilities in parallel on the host OS?19:42
projectdpok, how?19:42
nhainesGenerally, you invoke each program seperately, once for each disk.19:43
projectdpwell here's the issue19:44
projectdpthe software is generally a bundled antivirus suite19:44
projectdpi have about 10-15 of these19:44
projectdpmost of them are iso's19:44
projectdpnow i could go about figuring how to strip them from their bundle, and figure out how to update them for each19:45
projectdpbut that would suck19:45
projectdpi mean for some things yeah i could run multiple instances19:45
projectdpbacking the disks up19:46
projectdpimaging and the sort19:48
nhainesThat sounds like it'd take a lot of scripting.  I'm not sure it'd be easy to do with multiple disks in parallel though.19:49
nhainesIt shouldn't be terribly hard, just annoying to get set up initially.19:50
projectdpyou mean about the iso utilities?19:50
nhainesYes, to set up a script to instantiate a virtual machine that boots each ISO in turn.19:51
projectdpoh yeah thats not a problem19:51
nhainesYou can't access the same disk simultaneously with different VMs.  (You *can* but you shouldn't.)19:52
projectdpno i'm not interested in that19:52
projectdpone os per disk at a time19:53
nhainesThat's good to hear.  :)19:54
projectdpwhat kind of system do you think it would take to handle something like that?19:54
projectdpi was thinking maybe if i had a separate disk controller that it would offload a bunch of the io requests19:55
nhainesIt still all has to go over the system bus I believe.20:07
nhainesI'd probably get a script going and benchmark it, then try it with two simultaneously.20:08
projectdpi guess there's only one way to find out :)20:10
projectdpi may just make the plunge anyway20:10
projectdpi haven't had a server or a desktop of my own for quite a while20:13
projectdpmy last desktop was a p3 500mhz20:13
nhainesThey're slow but they'll run Ubuntu 5.04 without a fight.20:14
projectdphah hardly slow20:14
projectdpi ran netbsd20:14
projectdpit flew20:14
projectdpi also had rambus memory20:15
projectdpheh20:15
projectdprdram20:15
nhainesI avoided rdram.  :)20:41

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