[04:23] <Pendulum> just figured UW mentoring is a project thing, not social :)
[04:23] <valorie> indeed
[04:24] <nigelb> my mistake :)
[04:24] <pleia2> thanks Pendulum :)
[04:24] <nigelb> I put the link the other channel and the discussion started there :D
[04:24] <valorie> so nigel's etherpad: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/DbUgROq9Nj
[04:24] <valorie> I've added most of my points to it
[04:25] <Pendulum> what I just brought up in channel: I wonder if there's a way to provide an option for people to pick between the formal  program and something less formal. (I'm just thinking about the fact that I'm not  doing Gnome Women mentorship program, but I am being mentored by one of the Gnome A11y  women because I don't need a formal thing, but I need someone who can be around for  informal help and point me in the right direction on stuff)
[04:25] <Pendulum> (I'm also putting this on the etherpad as something to consider)
[04:25] <valorie> i think that is always possible
[04:25] <akk> Asking a potential mentor for help is always an option (or should be).
[04:25] <pleia2> and I mentioned earlier that I already loosely mentor some folks who email me for pointers (it doesn't take a whole lot of my time, and often I can translate what I offer in help to them upstream to projects to improve their introduction docs)
[04:25] <valorie> informal mentoring rocks
[04:26] <Pendulum> yeah
[04:26] <Pendulum> so maybe have 2 lists
[04:26] <pleia2> Pendulum: maybe a list of folks who can be emailed casually, and then the more formal process?
[04:26] <Pendulum> yeah
[04:26] <Pendulum> that's what I was just about to say :)
[04:26] <akk> It doesn't seem like formal mentorship programs do much to set up those informal relationships ... seems like those are a whole different thing.
[04:26] <valorie> if we want to do an organized project, though, then it has to be organized, and have some rules
[04:26] <IdleOne> I am interested in this mentoring program but I have no idea what it entails. What a mentor does or is expected to do.
[04:26] <IdleOne> maybe I need a mentor to teach me mentoring
[04:26] <pleia2> I think right now our mentoring program is sorta just the informal thing
[04:26] <valorie> well, SoK and the way KDE uses GSoC is explicitly to set up those relationships
[04:26] <Pendulum> valorie: and I think that's a good idea, I just think if we can do the formalised, but also have a list of people willing to do more informal stuff
[04:27] <Pendulum> it'd be good
[04:27] <valorie> in other words, it's not all about the code
[04:27] <valorie> it's all about the community
[04:27] <valorie> code is cream
[04:27] <valorie> Pendulum +1
[04:28] <Pendulum> for example, I don't have time to do formal mentoring and I have no idea about projects I could give someone, but I'm more than happy to do informal stuff
[04:28] <valorie> relationships are what make Ubuntu a great place to be
[04:28] <valorie> same with KDE
[04:28] <pleia2> maybe what we do this cycle is flesh out and launch the informal stuff and get mentors together, and work toward having a formal process for -P ?
[04:28] <pleia2> this == -O
[04:28] <valorie> I was going to ask how that is named
[04:29] <nigelb> Or we could start 3 months into cycle like if we can get the ground work done
[04:29] <valorie> we're going to be using Natty, but this is the O-cycle?
[04:29] <akgraner> Pendulum, yep I'm better about the informal stuff as well and valorie like the "it's not all about the code"
[04:29] <svaksha> IdleOne: ++1 on that
[04:29] <nigelb> valorie: its called by the code of what we develop
[04:29] <pleia2> valorie: yeah, the cycle is named for preparing for the upcoming release (it makes more sense for developers)
[04:29] <valorie> ok
[04:29] <nigelb> so we'd be working on -
[04:29] <nigelb> -O
[04:29] <valorie> right-o
[04:29] <IdleOne> svaksha: on what a mentor does or me needing a mentor? :)
[04:29] <nigelb> thought userdays are named wrongly :D
[04:30] <nigelb> IdleOne: I guess that means we need to flesh out a lot of things.
[04:30] <pleia2> nigelb: named rightly, just not in sync with other things :)
[04:30] <valorie> one important one -- is this going to be open only for women?
[04:30] <nigelb> pleia2: I meant to do 'wrongly' :-)
[04:30] <valorie> or for u-w members
[04:30] <valorie> or anyone
[04:30] <svaksha> IdleOne: on having ruls for the mentor and mentee (if that was what you were proposing). Its awkward if either dissapears or has some problems and nobody knows what is going on
[04:31] <valorie> more than awkward
[04:31] <pleia2> valorie: I think we want to focus on women, Ubuntu Beginners offers a broader mentoring program
[04:31] <valorie> ok
[04:31] <svaksha> heh
[04:31] <Pendulum> I would think focus on women, but maybe have a few male mentors if needed to fill spaces where we don't have female mentors?
[04:31] <valorie> do we have anyone in u-w who administers or mentors for the gnome women outreach?
[04:31] <pleia2> I don't think so
[04:32] <valorie> their feedback would be valuable
[04:32] <svaksha> valorie: finding mentors with a solid technical base is really hard (real life issues and time required an all) so i'd suggest keeping that open
[04:32] <pleia2> Pendulum: yeah, I think male mentors are fine as long as the mentee is ok with it
[04:32] <valorie> perhaps they would be willing to meet with some of us
[04:32] <Pendulum> pleia2: yeah.
[04:32] <IdleOne> svaksha: well that is part of what I meant also. Mostly I just don't know what a UW mentor would do.
[04:32] <valorie> well, if mentors write up ideas
[04:32] <IdleOne> any mentor really
[04:32] <nigelb> offer help, be point of contact.
[04:32] <valorie> then prospective students can get some background on them
[04:33] <pleia2> valorie: *nod*
[04:33] <valorie> the mentor is the "teacher"
[04:33] <akk> I'm not clear what these ideas are that mentors would be writing up.
[04:33] <akgraner> pleia2, I can talk to Stormy about the GNOME stuff if you want
[04:33] <valorie> but more like for a grad student
[04:33] <pleia2> akgraner: that'd be great :)
[04:33] <valorie> overseeing the work
[04:33] <akk> Projects I'd love to see someone do so I'd help a mentee do them?
[04:33] <nigelb> akk: Its like this. I have project A. this is what you need to do if you want to help in A. That's the Ideas.
[04:33] <valorie> sec, I'll get a link to the KDE ideas page
[04:33] <pleia2> eep, I need dinner
[04:34] <valorie> http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas
[04:34] <nigelb> akk: I think we have a few folks familar with GSoC, which is why there are blanks :)
[04:34] <valorie> in SoC, the students can use the proposal they had for GSoC
[04:34] <valorie> or come up with something better
[04:34] <akk> I hope there'll be some way to say "happy to mentor any project in Python or C" or whatever.
[04:35] <valorie> and we accept anyone for whom there is a willing mentor
[04:35] <akk> I feel like if I list projects I'm specifically working on, then that means I won't be mentoring anyone unless they happen to have a burning interest in one of those specialized areas.
[04:35] <akgraner> pleia2, I'll see f I can't schedule a call or exchange some q and a emails with her before I head to UDS...
[04:35] <valorie> the projects have already given their OK on the ideas on the ideas page
[04:35] <nigelb> akk: we'll probably want to say for example "i have a project which is to add more accessibility to ubiquity (the installer), it needs python and C skills, and I can help" (kindof)
[04:35] <valorie> and some students come up with their own ideas
[04:36] <valorie> right, nigelb
[04:36] <akgraner> ideally what date would you want something sent to the list or compiled by etc....
[04:36] <akk> I've had that fail before, where someone wanted help in Python and wanted a suggestion, I said I have this mapping app and would love help, she said sure ... but she just wasn't that into the problem, so it never happened.
[04:36] <Pendulum> in fact, the Gnome Women was far more student-driven for project ideas (at least when I was looking at applying)
[04:36] <valorie> these are merely ideas
[04:36] <valorie> they can supply their own ideas
[04:36] <valorie> if they can find a willing mentor
[04:37] <nigelb> ok, here's the etherpad again http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/DbUgROq9Nj
[04:37] <nigelb> feel free to edit/add
[04:37] <nigelb> I'd like to mail it to the list for more feedback
[04:38] <valorie> good idea
[04:38] <valorie> Asheesh is a good person to bounce stuff off of, too
[04:38] <valorie> from OpenHatch
[04:39] <akgraner> Asheesh rocks!
[04:39] <valorie> indeed
[04:39] <nigelb> paulproteus: Just FYI, we're discussing how much you rock :p
[04:39] <paulproteus> erm
[04:39] <paulproteus> Hello there.
[04:39] <valorie> heh
[04:39] <nigelb> haha
[04:40] <akk> :)
[04:40]  * paulproteus is posting more things to Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/gxhqh/event_a_projectdriven_introduction_to_python_for/
[04:41]  * paulproteus reads scrollback.
[04:42] <paulproteus> So, fwiw, I think that most "person-based" mentorship things don't work well.
[04:42] <paulproteus> Project-based works great, because the mentee has the pressure on them to say, "oh I am supposed to do $THING so I have to ask for feedback, rather than meekly disappear and never talk at all"
[04:43] <paulproteus> Now, you can add one-on-one relationships in the project-based mentoring.
[04:43] <paulproteus> It doesn't really matter who made the project (mentee vs. mentor) so long as the mentee is committed to it.
[04:43] <akk> I agree: person-based mentoring works when people find each other, but doesn't seem to work well from any official program.
[04:43] <paulproteus> Right, exactly.
[04:43] <valorie> I'm not sure what you mean by person-based vs. project-based
[04:44] <paulproteus> Basically, it's important that you structure the program so that the mentee will not vanish into a quiet cloud of meekness.
[04:44] <paulproteus> If you want it to succeed.
[04:44] <valorie> exactly
[04:44] <akk> valorie: "If you're a programmer and want mentoring, pick a mentor from this list" or "here's your assigned mentor whom we've matched to your needs"
[04:44] <valorie> which is why involved mentors are so crucial
[04:44] <paulproteus> I would also say:
[04:44] <akk> valorie: Sounds like a great idea (and I'm signed up in several such programs) but it doesn't seem to work in practice.
[04:45] <paulproteus> The OpenHatch site, we always dreamed, would help connect people like thsi.
[04:45] <paulproteus> We never paid enough attention to the mentorship-related featureset/UI.
[04:45] <paulproteus> If people dream up the UI in mockups, we will put it together.
[04:45] <paulproteus> It might take us 1-3 months.
[04:45] <paulproteus> But holy Jesus, there are new contributors popping up all the frickin' time. It's almost terrifying.
[04:45] <valorie> are you talking about something like Scrumdo?
[04:45] <akk> Or get some mentees to put it together. :)
[04:46] <valorie> I know a couple of the pairs in Amarok are going to use that
[04:46] <paulproteus> Another real risk you run is mentors feeling overwhelmed and burnt-out immediately.
[04:46] <paulproteus> Well, not "immediately"
[04:46] <svaksha> paulproteus: +1
[04:46] <valorie> that's why there have to be guidelines, rules, built-in support, etc.
[04:47] <valorie> there have to be admins to be mentors to the mentors
[04:47] <akk> There's also a problem of both sides feeling guilty for not putting in enough time, getting busy for 3 weeks straight, etc.
[04:47] <paulproteus> My initial reaction, to be honest, is "Yuck. You're creating process."
[04:47] <paulproteus> akk++
[04:47] <valorie> GSoC has worked well for KDE
[04:47] <paulproteus> Build the system to be strong; don't create layers and layers.
[04:47] <valorie> as has SoK
[04:47] <paulproteus> Hint; I think GSoC is not a "built to be strong' system.
[04:47] <akk> Often, both sides feel guilty thinking the other wants to put in more time and is waiting for them, not realizing the other is feeling just as guilty. :)
[04:47] <paulproteus> Oh, well, KDE has Lydia to make GSoC work.
[04:47] <valorie> right
[04:48] <paulproteus> And even then, I don't have KDE's stats, but I don't know how good retention is.
[04:48] <valorie> and now that it's getting bigger, she has a team to help her
[04:48] <valorie> better than some of the other orgs
[04:48] <nigelb> paulproteus: I konw it to be fairly good
[04:48] <paulproteus> nigelb: Well that's flippin' sweet.
[04:48] <nigelb> paulproteus: just saw a few mentors who are old gsoc students
[04:48] <paulproteus> (-:
[04:48] <valorie> when there is money, some people will be there for the money
[04:48] <nigelb> that was just brillant :)
[04:49] <valorie> all of the Amarok mentors are former gsoc students
[04:49] <paulproteus> I would say, don't focus on *process* and *roles*.
[04:49] <svaksha> paulproteus: process is sometimes a good thing to have
[04:49] <valorie> we've lost a few
[04:49] <valorie> paulproteus: we're just planning now
[04:49] <paulproteus> Sure
[04:49] <svaksha> agree about keeping it simple
[04:49] <valorie> so that's sort of important at this stage
[04:49] <paulproteus> These are my random thoughts before I should go to bed (-:
[04:50] <paulproteus> You will succeed if you structure something that's built to avoid burn-out.
[04:50] <nigelb> you know, now I have to summarize the random thoughts :p
[04:50] <valorie> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} to paulproteus
[04:50] <paulproteus> For example, say it's going to happen just this once, for 3 months, and we'll see how it goes.
[04:50] <paulproteus> This isn't an Ongoing Effort in some corporate commitment kind of way; it's just this thing some people are doing.
[04:50] <paulproteus> That's my advice.
[04:51] <svaksha> paulproteus: yes, realistic goals with a timeframe and well-thought ideas usually achieve far more than random suggestions that the person has no time to mentor
[04:51] <valorie> probably how SoK got started
[04:51] <valorie> :-)
[04:51] <paulproteus> You've seen http://pythonmentors.com/ maybe?
[04:51] <paulproteus> valorie: Yeah (-:
[04:51] <nigelb> wow, that's nice lik
[04:51] <nigelb> *link
[04:51] <paulproteus> They did something interesting, which is just one list -- no manual separation of mentees and mentors into one-on-ones.
[04:52] <paulproteus> But it's a private list.
[04:52] <paulproteus> And you reallly really really have to be nice on it.
[04:52] <svaksha> paulproteus: it seems to be working :)
[04:52] <svaksha> saw some patches go through
[04:52] <paulproteus> Oh *awesome* svaksha!
[04:53] <paulproteus> FWIW, I secretly (?) think that every $project-women project should be replaced $project-nice-people.
[04:53] <akk> I like the idea of the list -- sounds a bit like the linuxchix newbies list.
[04:53] <svaksha> paulproteus: but that is basically for folks with some level of python expertise
[04:53] <valorie> the point about helping the code get committed is so important
[04:53] <nigelb> ok, tiem to really head out. If someone can conclude the ideas onto the etherpad great. Or else, I'll do it later today
[04:53] <svaksha> a newbie would be quite lost, impo
[04:53] <akk> I wish there was one for helping people with python programming, not just hacking on the python core.
[04:53] <paulproteus> And there should be a culture team whose point is to improve the contributor experience for nice people.
[04:53] <valorie> if people work hard, and it languishes, they become bitter
[04:53] <paulproteus> See also my http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asheesh.org%2Fnote%2Fdebian%2Fpost-shy.html&ei=xkG2TdbnK8LTgAfpw-Rz&usg=AFQjCNFZ1vsUE4fzfSTKeL51bzcLzyNSWw
[04:53] <paulproteus> er
[04:53] <paulproteus> http://www.asheesh.org/note/debian/post-shy.html
[04:54] <valorie> paulproteus: someday we hope there will be no need for Ubuntu-Women
[04:54] <akk> So true about getting checkins, valorie. That's a problem with a lot of GSoC projects.
[04:54] <valorie> that's what the admins are for
[04:54] <paulproteus> As you here surely know, I do also believe in gender-specific outreach. http://www.asheesh.org/note/software/scala-crash-course.html !
[04:54] <valorie> to ping the mentors
[04:55] <valorie> mentors don't like feeling alone either
[04:55] <paulproteus> valorie++ # mega plus plus
[04:55] <valorie> it's a love-fest!
[04:55] <valorie> yes, you rock in many important ways
[04:55]  * paulproteus rolls his eyes.
[04:55] <valorie> heeeeeee
[04:56] <paulproteus> One thing that has worked really well for RailsBridge is taking something for which there is huge demand (in their case, learning programming) and do a variant on it that is targeted at them achieving their goal.
[04:56] <paulproteus> I actually think lots of mentorship is highly-demanded, so you'll do fine here. (-:
[04:57] <paulproteus> Structure it to be resilient to burn-out. one-on-one mentorship efforts are uniquely poorly suited to burn-out resilience. That's my story.
[04:57] <valorie> that's why we always have backup mentors
[04:58] <valorie> basically, team mentorship
[04:58] <paulproteus> But they won't have context, probably.
[04:58] <akk> Same reason we tell newbies on IRC "Ask in the channel, don't pick one person and PM them."
[04:58] <paulproteus> I think akk knows where I'm coming from. I'm off for a bit, I'm afraid!
[04:58] <valorie> sleep well
[04:58] <akk> g'night, paulproteus
[04:58] <akk> And context comes from public discussions on the mailing list.
[04:59] <akk> If other mentors can see that they can come in gradually and help each other.
[05:00] <valorie> in the case of Amarok, there is an invite-only devel IRC chan
[05:00] <valorie> and the students and mentors are all on there along with the rest of the devels
[05:00] <valorie> so there is always someone to help
[05:00] <akk> Why invite-only? Do you have a lot of troll problems?
[05:01] <valorie> the main chan is for user support
[05:01] <valorie> back chan for devel stuff -- although it spills to the main list too
[05:02] <valorie> not trolls as much as too many repetitive questions
[05:02] <svaksha> akk: probably to ensure that newbie students are not intimidated to ask silly questions if there are too many hangers on
[05:02] <akk> Even though the channel is named -dev or -devel or whatever?
[05:02] <akk> Interesting, I haven't usually seen a lot of user questions in dev channels.
[05:03] <valorie> I'm not sure what problems they encountered in the past
[05:03] <akk> I ask because it would make me think twice about trying to hack on a project's code.
[05:03] <valorie> why is that?
[05:03] <svaksha> why
[05:03] <akk> Having to go to one channel and beg for access to the real channel would make me wonder, how much do I really care about this?
[05:04] <akk> and what if I have to jump through hoops to get access to the channel?
[05:04] <akk> maybe I'll just try another program and see if it works for me, and skip trying to fix this one
[05:04] <valorie> questions to the devels in the main channel are answered
[05:04] <valorie> if they are around
[05:04] <svaksha> akk: that is one way of looking at it or maybe they want to give more attention to committed folks?
[05:05] <valorie> there is no begging that I've ever seen -- people who should be there, are there
[05:05] <svaksha> sometimes if the channel is too noisy it can turn off people
[05:05] <valorie> we have lots of great people in the main chan to help users with their difficulties
[05:05] <akk> I'm sure that's true. But it would feel that way if I was new to a project.
[05:05] <valorie> if you were developing, you would be invited
[05:05] <akk> That I have to come in as a supplicant before I can talk about development or lurk to hear what the devs are chatting about.
[05:06] <akk> Go ahead, keep telling me I'm wrong. I'm just telling you how it would feel to me.
[05:06] <valorie> I mean, I was invited
[05:06] <valorie> lol
[05:06] <valorie> I never asked
[05:06] <valorie> no, I'm not saying you are wrong
[05:06] <valorie> but that's not how I experienced it
[05:07] <akk> But you probably didn't come to the project as someone trying to hack on some code.
[05:07] <valorie> right
[05:07] <valorie> but I've never seen anyone leave because their help was ignored
[05:07] <akk> That's usually how I come to dev channels -- never been on the channel before, but I have this bug, I want to lurk and feel the culture, then decide if I can ask my question.
[05:07] <valorie> the devel mail list is open
[05:08] <valorie> lots of people use the forum also
[05:08] <valorie> I dunno -- it seems to work for Amarok
[05:08] <akk> Anyway, this is all a derailment and I didn't intend that, I was just curious because it would put me off (however wrong that might be :)
[05:09] <valorie> I shouldn't have mentioned it
[05:09] <valorie> you probably wouldn't have known about it unless I  mentioned it
[05:09] <valorie> :(
[05:09] <svaksha> valorie: agreeing to disagree == diversity
[05:09] <akk> urk, now I've caused bad feelings too :(  Really didn't want to make it into an argument -- sorry!
[05:13] <valorie> no, no, I just should have kept my mouth closed
[05:14] <valorie> svaksha: very true
[05:14] <valorie> akk knows I love her!
[05:14] <akk> . o O ( whew! :)
[05:15] <valorie> anyway, one of the issues I see us having is that while we want to sponsor women, we'll have to get both women and men as mentors, from lots of places
[05:15] <valorie> so recruitment will be a thing
[05:16] <valorie> GSoC and SoK don't have to do that
[05:16] <valorie> so we should think and plan a bit
[05:21]  * svaksha cant stress enough on the mentorship <-- crucial if you must, so its better we focus on getting enough technical mentors and co-mentors to avoid burnout on all sides.
[05:26] <valorie> exactly
[05:26] <valorie> admins and mentors are important ++
[05:26] <valorie> sorry for disappearing; the old dog needed help
[05:28] <valorie> svaksha, you said starting with two was a bad idea, but didn't finish talking about why
[05:28]  * valorie is wondering what Gnome Women Outreach started with
[05:32] <valorie> oh, we also have to have a KICK-ASS t-shirt
[05:32] <akk> A good t-shirt is very important! :)
[05:32] <valorie> that's how you get applicants
[05:33] <valorie> :-)
[05:33] <valorie> AND mentors and admins
[05:33] <akk> It's funny how motivating a good t-shirt is, especially if it's a project-members-only one.
[05:34] <valorie> I was just hearing a just-accepted GSoC student try to sweet-talk Nightrose into letting him do a SoK too
[05:34] <valorie> for the tshirt
[05:34] <valorie> lol
[05:52] <svaksha> valorie: two?
[06:13] <valorie> right, he wanted both shirts
[06:14] <valorie> this is the one person who could pull both off, but still we can't allow it