/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/27/#ubuntu-accessibility.txt

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webczatHey, is there any ppa with nightlies of firefox4?11:10
webczatIt has extreme number of bugs that may be fixed in nightlies. I mean firefox 4.0.11:10
UndiFineDwebczat, I use namoroka (firefox beta)12:09
UndiFineDhttp://ppa.launchpad.net/n-muench/firefox-daily/ubuntu12:09
webczatActually I found nightlies in another ppa already. :) I'm trying to find some major bugs that are present.12:13
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webczatdid anyone try firefox with orca on ubuntu natty?15:13
leoquantwebczat, not yet15:15
AlanBellhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-o-unity-a11y16:39
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hajour1hi all18:05
charlie-tcaNatty has a working screen-reader install, starting at the cd menu18:52
charlie-tcaIt automatically installs classic session, but it mostly works(not perfect, and not always the right words)18:53
hajour1mmm18:53
charlie-tcaIt does work better than what we have in maverick :-)18:55
hajour1ok 18:57
hajour1and do it work also on leight weight programs charlie-tca ?18:57
charlie-tcaAlanBell: that is a lonely blueprint to subscribe to 18:57
charlie-tcahajour1: haven't tried it18:57
* AlanBell keeps charlie-tca company18:58
* charlie-tca hugs AlanBell 18:58
hajour1lonely bleuprint?18:59
charlie-tca<AlanBell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-o-unity-a11y19:00
charlie-tcafor UDS, you subscribe to the blueprints for the session you want to attend19:01
AlanBellthe blueprints are only just becomming available so there is no massive hurry19:04
hajour1a that bleuprints19:05
hajour1thanks for the link finally 19:05
hajour1i mean finally its there19:05
Pendulumjust a reminder that we have a meeting in just over 2 hours19:44
hajour1a ok thanks Pendulum  for remembering19:59
hajour1i am not on my own pc you see20:00
hajour1so i not have my notes from my tomboy here20:00
AlanBellhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity/20:18
AlanBellmaco: ^^20:18
hajour1AlanBell,  i got a problem.i can't read my mail. i got gmail    and if i enlarge there with ctrl +  the fonts are like a bad copy20:18
AlanBellis this a problem specific to gmail?20:19
hajour1i don't know but i don't dare to use my yahoo mail anymore because after the hack from my mail. there are mails send with my mail adress by someone else20:20
hajour1so i only had my gmail still to use AlanBell 20:21
AlanBellsure, but there are other websites20:21
AlanBelljust looking at the gmail code now, it seems to use arial as the default font20:22
hajour1need to be save protected mail20:22
AlanBellwhich should end up being substituted by dejavu sans on ubuntu20:22
hajour1what means substituted?20:22
AlanBellreplaced20:23
AlanBellarial is a microsoft font20:23
hajour1mm ok20:23
AlanBellwhich you can install on Ubuntu, but it isn't there by default20:23
hajour1UndiFineD,  looked at it and coald not change it20:23
hajour1a ok20:23
hajour1i miss my english spellingscontrol but cant change it on my daughters pc20:24
hajour1so i hope its a little ok20:24
AlanBellok, lets try installing some extra fonts20:25
hajour1and that i have it enough automatize20:25
AlanBellthis is on a full size computer now right?20:25
hajour1yes20:25
AlanBellok, in a terminal paste this command20:25
AlanBellsudo apt-get install ttf-mscorefonts-installer20:25
hajour1her pc is2 years old20:25
AlanBellthat will download some extra fonts including arial which gmail uses by default20:25
hajour1can i copy it exact like that?20:26
AlanBellyup20:26
hajour1but i not know the pastword from this pc20:26
hajour1i let UndiFineD  read back so20:26
AlanBellah, well that won't work then!20:26
hajour1he had the change for first time in weeks to watch a movie and that is amazing with 4 teenagers in home20:27
hajour1so i will let him enjoy watching his movie20:27
hajour1AlanBell, ^20:28
JanCs/change/chance/20:28
AlanBellhajour1: if you go to settings in the top right of the gmail page20:28
JanCand let him see that movie!  ☺20:28
AlanBellthen themes20:28
hajour1hehe yes i let him see the movie20:28
hajour1sec need to log in20:29
AlanBellyou can change different colours and fonts20:29
AlanBellalthough most seem to be the same font20:29
hajour1o crap not now my password anymore in UndiFineD  his pc its in memory20:29
hajour1then i must wait20:30
macoctrl+ is working fine on my gmail20:30
AlanBellworks great for me too20:30
hajour1yesterday i suddenly was forgot my pincode from my bank pass20:30
hajour1not by me20:30
hajour1and i still not remember it20:30
hajour1have put in 2 times wrong code :S20:31
AlanBelloops20:31
AlanBellat least you won't need to change currencies for UDS20:31
hajour1so i not dare to try third time20:31
hajour1i need to go yo bank tomorrow for to ask pincode again20:32
hajour1no lucky i not need to do that20:32
AlanBellwe should have gone to the Euro when everyone else did20:32
AlanBelloh, you know about the per diem allowance?20:32
AlanBellI checked with Marianna and there will be one, they just have not set the ammount yet20:33
AlanBellso basically each night you can eat in the hotel and put the meal on your room20:33
AlanBellor alternatively you can go out20:33
hajour1ok need to tell it.i have get a choice last week by doctor.lower meds and then almost nothing can do anymore allone and having ppain.or stay on this high dose .only the prize from it i probarly be de dead in about 10 years or in a coma20:34
AlanBellspend your own money and claim something like €30 (roughly)20:34
AlanBellwithout a receipt or anything20:34
AlanBellso you can go out and spend less than €30 and you keep the change20:34
hajour1so before that time i want to have changed things here in netherland for people with issues20:34
AlanBellor go out and spend more than €30 and have a great night out20:35
hajour1and i already working on that20:35
hajour1but do not have sorry for me20:35
hajour1be happy for me i have at least 10 good years20:35
AlanBellso you need to take something like €120 or have a bank card to go out and eat each night and you can claim it all back again at the end20:36
JanCthey accept euros in Budapest?20:37
hajour1ok i hope i will have so much i already scrabbing all money together to pay my travel for to come from my vilage to the airport20:38
pleia2AlanBell: thanks for checking on per diem20:38
hajour1sorry for dropping it so suddenly.but did not know good how to tell this20:42
hajour1i think there is no easy way for it20:42
hajour1feeling now guildty for upsetting you all20:44
hajour1hope i have write it good20:44
hajour1but i have a request20:44
charlie-tcahajour1: no problem. They told me 10 years ago I would be completely handicapped by now20:45
hajour1if it is my time and speechcontrol is really made.and still needed do you think cononical would care for it it will stay up to date and good?20:45
hajour1for all people who need it20:46
JanChajour1: 10 years is a long long time from now  ;-)20:46
hajour1have very much to do JackyAlcine 20:46
hajour1JanC, 20:46
charlie-tcagot to wait and see what is still around in 10 years20:46
hajour1i need to go to government to wake them up and remembering there promisses20:47
hajour1what they had promised and have put in the law20:47
hajour1for handicap people20:47
hajour1have had many talks last week20:48
hajour1with cityhall and wsw =for handicap people adjust work20:48
hajour1and volunteer agancy20:48
hajour1and ren 4 =for help guidance to help handicaped people20:49
hajour1and have contact all kind of instances from handicaped people20:49
hajour1i maybe had no pc but have not sit still20:49
hajour1i also have help now to put a petition together20:50
hajour1we go starting after uds20:50
hajour1and till now all people i talked to are enthousiastic for my ideas20:51
hajour1they already talked to do it country wide20:51
hajour1but i said first start small20:51
hajour1build up easy20:52
hajour1but good20:52
hajour1i already have permission to put in a call by the volunteer site from that agancy and they work together with government often to20:53
hajour1thats where i was busy with last weeks20:53
hajour1so sorry for be not so much been around here last weeks20:53
hajour1but had very busy and was very tired in evening slept right after diner20:54
hajour1most of the time20:54
hajour1my 16 year old daughter was the 1 who played games on my facebook20:54
hajour1she have a problem with sleeping20:55
hajour1she not sleep more then 2 hours20:55
hajour1whole her life20:55
hajour12 hours in 24 hours20:56
JanC:-/20:58
hajour1you all have say me ubuntu tought is not only irc20:58
hajour1i have learned and put it in action20:58
hajour1on this way i help open source and people to get education and self mmm esteam?20:59
hajour1not know last word20:59
hajour1also to not give up21:00
hajour1never give up21:00
* Pendulum heads to B&N21:01
Pendulumback when I'm set up with a nice drink and hopefully a working Nook Color21:01
hajour1what is B&N?21:02
AlanBella bookshop21:08
charlie-tcaBarnes and Nobles bookstores21:08
hajour1a ok21:18
hajour1i have get from a team member a listenbook from nietze21:19
JanCNietzsche ?21:28
JanCthat's heavy stuff !  ☺21:29
hajour1always wanted to read that but reading is very difficult for me so now i have a listenbook21:35
macoPendulum: got your nook21:36
maco?21:36
Pendulummaco: well, I discovered my problem was not me21:37
macohuh?21:37
hajour1?21:37
hajour1i think i missed a lot last weeks21:38
Pendulummaco: B&N is doing work on their servers which has meant that Nooks are now reacting as if they aren't registered and then can't connect to the B&N network to confirm the registration info21:38
macodoh21:39
hajour1a ok the bookstore21:39
Pendulumso I essentially have a $250 paperweight until it's fixed21:39
Pendulumwhich should be sometime today21:39
macofun stuff :(21:40
Pendulumreally wishing I'd rooted my Nook before now ;-)21:40
PendulumI think it's a bit ridiculous if their doing service on the server means I can't use my Nook. It's not like it stops working when I don't have internet access!21:41
hajour1what is a nook?21:42
Pendulumhajour1: it's a ebook reader21:42
hajour1a ok21:42
hajour1thank you Pendulum  for info21:42
Pendulummaco: to make it better, they didn't even warn their stores about this.21:42
Pendulumright, meeting time!22:00
* Pendulum pokes charlie-tca AlanBell TheMuso 22:01
AlanBello/22:01
* charlie-tca waves22:01
MrChrisDruifo/22:02
hajour1o/22:02
macoo/22:03
hajour1UndiFineD,  sleeps22:03
Pendulumit is 21:00 UTC, right?22:03
hajour1he have had very busy days last time22:03
charlie-tcayup22:03
JanC21:0322:03
macoyep22:03
Pendulum(just realised my laptop is telling me 2 different times. and the Ubuntu clock says it's 30 minutes ago)22:03
hajour1it is 23:03 here evening22:03
Pendulumright!22:04
macoRiddell: poke22:04
Pendulumagenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda22:04
Pendulumit's pretty simple in that it's all about making plans for Oneric and UDS :)22:04
Pendulumoops22:05
Pendulum#startmeeting22:05
meetingologyMeeting started Wed Apr 27 21:05:39 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.22:05
meetingologyUseful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.22:05
hajour1i go try to wake him up22:05
hajour1brb22:05
Pendulum#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda22:05
hajour1:( cant get him awake sorry22:06
MrChrisDruifOneiric you mean22:06
Pendulum#topic Plans for Oneiric22:07
meetingologyTOPIC: Plans for Oneiric22:07
maconeed a macro that types out that word with right-spelling on a certain key combo22:07
charlie-tcaby the end of the cycle, I might get that right22:07
Pendulumheh, that was actually just my finger fail22:08
Pendulumso I just want to throw this pretty open for people to talk about what they'd like to work on or see worked on from the community perspective for Oneiric22:08
PendulumI can talk about things I want22:08
Pendulumlike, I'd love it if we could finally get all the personas done!22:08
AlanBellyay22:08
AlanBellso would I22:08
MrChrisDruifWhat is the grand scheme of Ubuntu for Ocelot?22:08
AlanBellI would like there to be some discussion around on-screen keyboards22:09
AlanBelland getting them to work with unity22:09
hajour1ok if i can get skype working i maybe can help with personas by telling info and someone else write?22:09
charlie-tca+122:09
AlanBelland whether onboard is the way forward or caribou22:09
PendulumI also and this is more devel, but I want to hear from Riddell and TheMuso about what's happening with Unity 2D22:09
MrChrisDruifhajour1: Doesn't Mumble work?22:10
AlanBellwork out which keyboard has the best long term roadmap with things like multitouch and innovative layouts22:10
AlanBellstuff like steno keyboards and switch control etc22:10
hajour1i explain after meeting MrChrisDruif \22:10
MrChrisDruifhajour1: Alright22:10
macoMrChrisDruif: Kate tells me that accessibility will be getting a bunch of focus this time around22:11
JanCdidn't they say that for natty too?  ;)22:11
Pendulummaco: they told us that last cycle and while it did to a certain extent, I have to admit I'm not holding my breath ;-)22:11
macoPendulum: TheMuso asked in #kde-accessibility today, and QML accessibility support is in the works22:11
macoa specific developer was even mentioned!22:11
macoso its not just a SEP ;-)22:11
hajour1i will talk much ass possible i can to the people by uds22:12
Cheri703sorry, /me is late22:12
MrChrisDruifCheri703: Welcome, we just started22:12
PendulumI'm going to start putting some of the ideas so far into http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y22:12
macoi'm going to try to convince someone to let me onto the installer team so i can whack ubiquity with an a11y stick22:13
charlie-tcamaco: cjwatson would welcome that22:13
macocharlie-tca: i sent him a PM asking what the details are for joining22:14
PendulumI think we need to put on testing again22:14
Pendulumbecause charlie-tca rocked hard on that this cycle22:14
hajour1is libopenmary already in natty or where we just to late?22:14
MrChrisDruifmaco: Make them also downsize their memory requirement while your at it22:14
macoi talked to Riddell today in #kubuntu-devel about adding kaccessible to the kubuntu cd22:15
macomy attempts with it show it at least reading menus if not being totally useful on things like konsole22:15
Cheri703I have a small thought on testing...22:15
macobut this is a huge improvement over "this menu does nothing since hardy"22:15
charlie-tcayup22:15
PendulumCheri703: yes?22:16
Cheri703I know there's a wiki page that explains the testing procedures, but...it's kind of hard to just jump into it (maybe it's just me). I was thinking that perhaps some how to videos might be good? I know there are a few around, but...I dunno22:16
macoi will probably break ev's test scripts when i add useful accessible names to widgets in ubiquity :P guess i should be careful to give him heads up on those22:17
Cheri703I've wanted to help with testing, but I've felt kind of lost22:17
charlie-tcaThe problem is the speed of the changes is so fast22:17
Cheri703so I'm sure others probably have as well...I don't know22:17
jbichaI'm curious to see how https://live.gnome.org/Caribou is coming, I wasn't able to quite finish building it from source though22:17
maco(because the test script uses the accessible name, and itll be changing to something humans can use)22:17
jbichait's Gnome's new onscreen keyboard22:17
charlie-tcaWe get a video, and the next day it is obsolete22:17
Pendulumjbicha: you and me both!22:17
Pendulumjbicha: there was a long thing over the weekend with AlanBell and joanie in #a11y on Gnome's IRC server22:18
MrChrisDruifjbicha: What was the old?22:18
macoPendulum: there's no hope for Dasher anymore, eh?22:18
macoMrChrisDruif: Gok for GNOME, but ubuntu always used OnBoard22:18
jbichaI'd like to try to get it packaged but that is likely beyond my abilities22:18
Cheri703true charlie-tca 22:18
joaniemaco Dasher isn't hopeless. But progress on converting it away from CSPI I think was the issue22:19
AlanBelljbicha: there will be .deb files (just not yet)22:19
charlie-tcaDasher is a different creature than Onboard. Can't we get both into the accessibility options?22:19
macojbicha: i expect itll get packaged for oneiric by the desktop-team just because all gnome stuff seems to22:19
Pendulumfor those who are unaware, the issue with onBoard is that it has no developers. AFAIK it was a Google Summer of Code project and then kinda just has stayed static22:19
AlanBellhi joanie 22:19
* MrChrisDruif would like Ubuntu going Gnome 3 for Ocelot22:19
* joanie waves to AlanBell 22:19
Cheri703possibly have a "intro to testing" thing? like on the testing page, have a "on mondays between xtime and ytime people will be available to answer questions about testing"  I know some folks are around generally, but...just an idea22:19
PendulumI'm also unsure how Dasher will look on Unity22:20
jbichaMrChrisDruif: that's already happening, just with the Unity & Unity 2D shells22:20
macojoanie: sorry, what's CSPI? and i was actually referring to a specific thing Pendulum and i had talked about before, where with AT-SPI2 it was going to be losing direct input mode22:20
charlie-tcaCheri703: I like that idea. I would work with you on that22:20
Cheri703ok22:20
MrChrisDruifCheri703: I think a workshop would be better22:20
joaniemaco cspi are the c-based AT-22:20
joanieSPI1 bindings22:20
Cheri703perhaps start with a workshop and then ALSO have the q&a time22:20
charlie-tcaPendulum: note that testing page idea, with QA weekly or monthly22:21
macojoanie: and "everyone just copies and pastes from our text editor" seemed like the sort of thing someone who never uses IRC/IM would say22:21
Pendulumwould people (probably mostly charlie-tca) be interested in running the initial testing workshop in #ubuntu-classroom?22:21
MrChrisDruifCheri703: During and after a workshop people can ask questions...but after a workshop it's easier22:21
joaniemaco sorry, you lost me on that last one22:21
Pendulumjoanie: it was one of the early answers to 'what do we do with Dasher in Gnome3'22:21
charlie-tcasure, we could do that in -classroom22:21
macoPendulum: has it changed?22:22
Pendulummaco: it moved to 'well you can compile it without [forgets which bit] and it works at least somewhat'22:22
macojoanie: Dasher can input into apps directly or into its own little text editor, and the direct input option was talking about being removed because "nobody uses it" but...typing into a separate window then copying & pasting everything would be annoying/slow22:23
macofor conversations22:23
joaniemaco gotcha22:23
Pendulumanyway, I think we're bikeshedding a little on the Dasher thing22:23
Pendulummaybe move it to later/or the Gnome a11y channel ;-)22:23
macokk22:23
Pendulumso we've got personas, Unity 2D issues, Onscreen Keyboards, Ubiquity, and Testing. What else are people interested in focusing on?22:25
Cheri703visibility of the team/project...22:25
macoand in with that:  developer awareness22:25
hajour1UndiFineD,  is typing22:25
macoi think a "Better Practices in Accessibility" session at UDS would be handy22:26
Cheri703I think that a lot of people don't know that this stuff can be useful to more than just disabled folks22:26
charlie-tcaPendulum: will you be able to continue the sessions with jono?22:26
maco"Best Practices" might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves though ;-)22:26
UndiFineDmorning, one thing that bugged me for natty is, the login, it is not accessible and improvements must be made there to allow people to use on screen keyboard, fingerprint reading, facial or voice recognition22:26
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I have to check with him, but I think someone from a11y should be doing them22:26
macowhereas i think a lot of developers have no idea they're Doin It Wrong ;-)22:26
Pendulummaco: do you mean as a plenary?22:26
MrChrisDruifUndiFineD: Or for security a combination of the above22:27
UndiFineDyes22:27
macoPendulum: i think a plenary with some short "here's the stuff to watch for" and ending in "meet in $room at $time for a howto session" could be handy22:27
PendulumUndiFineD: that's what maco plans on working on with the installer team22:27
Pendulumthe question is, do we have anyone going to UDS who can run it22:27
PendulumTheMuso: are you here or are you asleep?22:27
macoPendulum: the login screen and the installer are two different things22:27
Cheri703I think for people who aren't necessarily devs but might be able to help don't necessarily know about the project/needs22:27
Pendulummaco: bah, that was my brain misreading22:28
UndiFineDPendulum, what do you mean by 'run' ?22:28
PendulumUndiFineD: someone who can lead it22:28
macoi can add atk hints to ubiquity (now that ive sorta learned how and know what 3 lines would break it if i tried right now), and i intend to work on the live cd splash screen for kubuntu, but i dont know much about gdm or kdm, and last time i touched kdm i learned the main developer is hostile toward new folks22:28
UndiFineDhajour is going to uds, she will speak up, it is what she does best22:28
AlanBellsomeone who can stand up in front of several hundred people22:28
PendulumI think TheMuso would be the best person to lead sessions on making things accessible in terms of knowledge, but he's not here to agree22:29
Pendulum(of the people I know will be at UDS)22:29
charlie-tcaI can if need be.22:29
charlie-tcaAs long as I can prepare, I will be able to do either session leads or plenary22:29
JanCUndiFineD: fingerprints & face recognition are no substitutes for passwords (I can explain why later), but maybe they can replace the "user chooser"...22:29
UndiFineDI know JanC , but it would make things easier22:30
Pendulumbecause for those who don't know plenaries are pretty much supposed to be of the top quality info and I feel like for such a session we need someone who has had a lot of experience with a11y development22:30
UndiFineDthe trouble is in modules for the login22:30
Pendulum(no offense meant charlie-tca)22:31
macocharlie-tca: when i get home i can dig up the gnome link thats like "10 things to make sure you do, with code examples"22:31
charlie-tcaI agree, Pendulum. It would be best if we get TheMuso to do them22:31
* Pendulum assigns herself a task22:31
charlie-tcabut I will take a standby on them, if you want22:31
maco(and glade can do many of them if the non-coders want to help)22:31
MrChrisDruifPendulum: #action?22:31
Pendulum#action Pendulum to talk to TheMuso about his running a 'best practices in a11y devel plenary/session at UDS'22:32
meetingologyACTION: Pendulum to talk to TheMuso about his running a 'best practices in a11y devel plenary/session at UDS'22:32
MrChrisDruif:D22:32
UndiFineD:)22:32
Pendulumif we don't do it this UDS (we just may not have time to really pull something good together), we should definitely do it next UDS22:32
Pendulumjbicha: would you be interested in working with people this cycle on getting better documentation?22:32
macoemails to ubuntu-devel on occasion to remind everyone what things to do might be obnoxiously helpful as well.  i have the impression Planet Ubuntu is too much for most devs to bother with after they've already spent 2 hours on mailing lists 22:33
MrChrisDruifPendulum: Then we should start making plans for that one as well?22:33
PendulumMrChrisDruif: not at least for another month!22:33
macofor example, when documentation like Pendulum just mentioned is written/updated, notify u-d22:33
MrChrisDruifAgreed, but still: keep it going. That's what I meant :)22:33
PendulumI do want to point out that we're probably going to either need to pare this down or motivate a lot more people and get a lot more done this cycle22:34
Pendulums/this/next22:34
joaniePendulum: Or alternatively partner with similar efforts upstream ;-)22:34
Pendulumjoanie: that would count under more people ;-)22:35
UndiFineDthat is true, and for that also, hajours plans to draw in volunteers22:35
macoCheri703: think you could help me with Ubiquity? a lot of what needs to be done can be done through a GUI instead of editing code22:35
jbichaPendulum: yes I can help in documentation a11y stuff22:35
Cheri703maco: sure :) I may need some handholding at first, but yeah22:35
AlanBellwould be nice to get the ubuntu manual team to do some documentation and the official book22:35
UndiFineDjbicha, great I am happy to help there22:35
macoCheri703: cool!22:35
Cheri703if it's non-coding, I'm all for it :)22:35
Pendulumwe started out Natty cycle with lots of push and then it kinda died down for various reasons and we need to figure out how to maintain the energy this cycle22:35
AlanBellwas a bit poor that nobody was worried about screenshots of onboard changing22:36
hajour1well now i know how to make screenshots22:36
UndiFineDAlanBell, what would you like to add to the ubuntu manual ?22:37
jbichait's because the Desktop Guide didn't have any screenshots of it in the first place22:37
hajour1just did not how before22:37
jbichaUndiFineD: what do you mean the login screen is inaccessibile? it has the Universal Access button22:38
AlanBellUndiFineD: some information on the accessibility options22:38
MrChrisDruifThen the next question would be why nobody was worried it didn't have any in the first place :)22:38
UndiFineDI will be happy to write accessibility documentation for this cycle22:38
charlie-tcaThe Universal Access button is worthless to the blind people22:39
AlanBellMrChrisDruif: a bug was filed against the manual22:39
Cheri703ok22:39
Pendulumjbicha: if only having a universal access button actually made things accessible ;-)22:39
UndiFineDjbicha, does that offer an on screen keyboard ? or facial recognition ? or similar tools ?22:39
Pendulumbut, yeah, it's not so useful if you can't see the button to begin with22:39
jbichait offers an onscreen keyboard22:40
MrChrisDruifAlanBell: How many more personas are needed?22:40
charlie-tcaclick the button, click the next thing, then try and do something to make it accessible. Can't we make it easy to use?22:40
jbichaI tried it yesterday and it works22:40
AlanBellwell orca does run for gdm if you install it that way22:40
charlie-tcajbicha: try it blind22:40
UndiFineDjbicha, then still no orca is running22:40
AlanBellif you install using orca then orca will automatically start before gdm22:40
charlie-tcaor even with poor vision22:40
charlie-tcaIt does not stand out there22:40
AlanBellbut we are drifting off topic22:40
UndiFineD:)22:41
Cheri703where is the button? could it be a "the button will always be the bottom right corner, move mouse a bunch of times that way and click"22:41
* MrChrisDruif was a bit late with the question22:41
jbichaexcuse me if this is rude, but how many OS's can blind people install themselves?22:41
charlie-tcaIT is bottom, right, over to left a bit22:41
Cheri703k22:41
jbichait would be nice to get it working but there's a design challenge to it22:41
macojbicha: id be completely unsurprised if OSX was on the list22:41
Pendulumlet's move the install and gdm questions to later22:41
charlie-tcaThat depends on how easy the devs make accessibility22:41
Pendulumand the philosophical debates22:42
hajour1right jbicha  that is why i was sugestin to make a speech program by the install cd right away22:42
AlanBellMrChrisDruif: 3 to go22:42
Pendulumokay, so we've got a bunch of ideas up on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y now22:42
Pendulummaco: I'm correct that the Ubiquity a11y stuff has its own blueprint for UDS, right?22:43
macoPendulum: yes22:43
macodesktop-o-ubiquity-a11y i think?22:43
MrChrisDruifAlanBell: Thanks22:44
* webczat would like to have a shortcut key for enabling orca22:44
Pendulumwe need to think about the Community a11y blueprint22:44
Pendulumwhich I can't be the drafter on because I won't be at UDS22:45
charlie-tcamaco: desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity22:45
macowhoops22:45
MrChrisDruifwebczat: Apparently it's started before GDM if you install it with Orca enabled...22:45
PendulumCheri703: charlie-tca, does one of you want to own that blueprint and start it and submit it for scheduling?22:45
MrChrisDruifAnd you can set your own shortcuts...22:46
webczatMrChrisDruif: yes, but if you want to have an accessible login on an orca disabled system, it's useful to be able to enable it.22:46
MrChrisDruifBut 1 single default shortcuts might be good webczat22:46
charlie-tcasure,22:46
Cheri703thanks charlie-tca I'm still new to this stuff22:46
charlie-tcaPendulum: I thought Luke owned it, since he drafted it22:46
charlie-tcabyt I will take it22:46
Pendulumcharlie-tca: this is a community team blueprint22:46
Pendulumhis is devel22:46
charlie-tcaOkay, I will take it22:47
Pendulumcharlie-tca: awesome. I'm happy to help if you need any help setting it up/submitting it22:47
charlie-tcayup, I will get with you, probably tomorrow22:47
Pendulum#action charlie-tca to set up Community a11y blueprint for UDS-O22:47
meetingologyACTION: charlie-tca to set up Community a11y blueprint for UDS-O22:47
Riddellmaco: you poked me?22:48
RiddellPendulum: I know nothing about Unity 2D, I do KDE not Gnomey things22:48
webczatthe thing is that orca is started by gdm, this is gdm's feature to be able to check some checkbox after clicking an icon and then a screenreader always gets loaded, but I can't easily get to the dialog.22:48
PendulumRiddell: I thought Unity 2D was Qt and QML based and that was why you got poked about qt-at-spi?22:48
macoRiddell: i was poking you about our conversation earlier. she was poking about qml22:49
RiddellPendulum: yes I believe it is22:49
webczatlike ctrl+alt+tab and then (my god, where am i?) :)22:50
hajour1if i am correct is the gnome part what makes orca not  easy useble for leight weight programs right?22:50
Pendulumokay, is there anything else people would like to stick on the etherpad to see if it can be discussed at UDS in terms of getting it done?22:51
charlie-tcahajour1: right. Xfce 4.10 is going to include screen-reader suport22:51
hajour1is ;ibopenmary already in natty ?22:51
hajour1libopenmary i mean22:51
webczatI think someone in gdm should add a key for the universal access thing, and then it won't be a problem to tab few times and press space.22:51
UndiFineDJackyAlcine, ^ ?22:52
charlie-tcaI don't show anything libopenmary in natty22:52
AlanBellis it in debian?22:53
jbichawebczat: I agree22:53
hajour1because that gnome part caused screen freeze by my old notebook and my youngest daughters pc22:53
webczatjbicha: yeah. you can write somewhere how many times you need to press tab and then space, but because the panel remembers the last position, you can't write how many times to tab to get to the accessibility icon.22:54
Cheri703are we still doing meeting things?22:54
Pendulumokay, so I think we've gotten through the agenda items22:54
MrChrisDruifhajour1: It might be best to get it into Debian, then it will automatically get into Ubuntu afaik22:54
Pendulum#topic Any other Business22:54
meetingologyTOPIC: Any other Business22:54
jbichaI'm new to a11y so I knew logging in was possible by keyboard or mouse but you're right it doesn't look possible for a blind user22:54
PendulumDoes anyone have anything else they want to bring up for the meeting?22:54
MrChrisDruifMaybe the DEX program is suited for that...for "easily" getting it into Debian I mean22:54
PendulumI guess not22:55
Pendulumthanks everyone for coming!22:55
Pendulum#endmeeting22:55
meetingologyMeeting ended Wed Apr 27 21:55:56 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)22:55
meetingologyMinutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-27-21.05.moin.txt22:55
hajour1jbicha,  best would be a speech read program what would be installed same time with install ubuntu22:56
webczatjbicha: it's possible by keyboard, because I know, for example, when the user list begins or ends and when I'm at the login prompt, I just need to know where am i.22:56
AlanBellthanks Pendulum 22:56
charlie-tcaThanks for chairing, Pendulum 22:56
Pendulumnp22:56
hajour1sorry i cant type that fast Pendulum 22:56
AlanBellhajour1: stuff doesn't get into ubuntu generally until it gets into debian22:57
AlanBellhajour1: is libopenmary in a ppa or somewhere it can be tested at least?22:57
hajour1then we need to try to get it there22:57
joanieAlanBell: Really, so the "trickle down" is gnome (or whatever) -> Debian -> Ubuntu?22:57
UndiFineDAlanBell, yes22:57
AlanBelland this is the thing that plugs openmary into speech dispatcher right?22:57
AlanBelljoanie: basically yes22:58
AlanBelldebian is the main upstream22:58
webczatjbicha: but it's good that you can at all select a screenreader and if accessibility on gdm is at all enabled, it will start up immediately.22:58
AlanBellhowever there are exceptions22:58
hajour1it not need to nessacery to  be libopenmary just if there will be a speech program22:58
UndiFineDAlanBell, : https://launchpad.net/~speechcontrol-devel22:58
TheMusoSorry folks, totally forgot about the meeting... That kinda happens when you have a 5 day long weekend. :)22:58
AlanBellhajour1: have you used orca?22:58
PendulumAlanBell: she can't because she can't use Gnome22:59
UndiFineDAlanBell, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/appdiagram.png22:59
hajour1not after my old notebook AlanBell  there it was a metal voice22:59
hajour1what was hurting my ears AlanBell 22:59
PendulumTheMuso: no worries! I'm going to poke you later or e-mail you about something, but otherwise we just did a massive brainstorm in http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y22:59
AlanBellyeah, espeak is a bit harsh22:59
TheMusoSure.22:59
hajour1this is not my pc i have no pc at this moment AlanBell 22:59
TheMusoEspeak? Harsh? No way!23:00
* joanie laughs23:00
AlanBellhajour1: however orca just pumps stuff out to speech dispatcher23:00
webczatusefulnes is more important I think :)23:00
* Pendulum giggles23:00
JanCwell, I know somebody who prefers the espeak voices over the "better" ones23:00
TheMusoI prefer espeak period.23:00
webczatI also like it.23:00
JanCbecause he can tell espeak to talk 50% faster and it's still understandable23:00
AlanBellUndiFineD: I don't understand that diagram23:00
AlanBellit is just a bunch of words on a page23:00
* MrChrisDruif hasn't used any of them23:00
joanieTheMuso: The Spanish Festival voices rock though.23:00
hajour1what i mean is that i not know how orca is now AlanBell 23:01
JanCbut I can understand it's different for other users...23:01
MrChrisDruifAlanBell: You put in one deaf person?23:01
Pendulumjoanie: now I'm tempted to set up Festival just to see what they sound like :P23:01
MrChrisDruifFor the personas?23:01
TheMusojoanie: Sure thats great if you like spanish.23:01
hajour1TheMuso,  i not now how orca sounds now23:01
TheMusoMy complaint with Festival is the size of the voices.23:01
webczatthe same I think hmm23:01
joanieTheMuso: :-) My point is though, it is apparently possible to make festival not suck23:01
Pendulumhaha23:02
TheMusoWell thats a good thing... I guess.23:02
joanieBrailcom apparently did new Czech voices23:02
TheMusoYeah I read.23:02
webczatEspeak is probably the easiest to use linux synthesizer.23:03
joaniehaving said that, I'm old enough to remember when all speech synthesizers were hardware. ;-)23:03
hajour1TheMuso,  the last time i tried orca was more then a month ago23:03
webczataround 50 languages (one better, another sucks) but still. without voice installation.23:03
charlie-tcaOpportunity knocking... learn spanish or czech to use the *good* voices :-)23:03
joaniecharlie-tca: Or alternatively, invest in improving the quality of the other voices23:04
joaniebe they the espeak ones or the festival ones23:04
charlie-tcawell, yeah, that too23:04
JanCjoanie: I remember the first "software synthesizer" I saw was in the early 1990s, but it was barely understandable  ;)23:04
TheMusojoanie: I still have a couple of hardware synths actually, and would like to use them again one day, when I can find time to write a speech-dispatcher driver for them.23:04
AlanBellUndiFineD: just read the code for libopenmary, still don't see what it does, but it isn't a speech dispatcher plugin23:04
hajour1TheMuso,  do you go also to uds?23:04
TheMusohajour1: Yes.23:04
MrChrisDruifAlanBell: why did you add a deaf person, if I may ask? I've used my Ubuntu countless of time muted no problems :-/23:04
* joanie still has a dectalk express in a closet23:04
JanCit was less than 1k lines of Pascal code though23:04
webczatjoanie: hardware synthesizers are sometimes better.23:04
webczatI have one and it rox23:05
hajour1i would love to talk to you to learn a lot more about all from speech programs TheMuso 23:05
TheMusojoanie: I have 2 of them, and a doubletalk. I also have a Dectalk PC card lying around somewhere too.23:05
charlie-tcaMrChrisDruif: is not deaf a disability too?23:05
hajour1i learn a lot more better by hearing TheMuso 23:05
webczatfor example because it's connected to the serial port instead of being an application using a soundcard, and the serial port drivers are easy to make.23:05
AlanBellMrChrisDruif: using it for communication, like minicom etc23:05
charlie-tcaI use a bell to tell me when someone specifically wants to talk to me in IRC23:06
charlie-tcawithout it, I miss half the messages23:06
MrChrisDruifcharlie-tca: Yes, being deaf is a disability too....but like I said: muted == no problems :D23:06
UndiFineDAlanBell, libopenmary is just a library in between, there is still a thing to be made to link speechdispatcher and libopenmary23:06
MrChrisDruifAlanBell: How do you mean?23:06
hajour1because i am also going to uds TheMuso 23:06
TheMusohajour1: Awesome.23:06
hajour1if you have time offcourse TheMuso 23:06
macoMrChrisDruif: i can think of one23:06
* webczat points at speakup screenreader thing23:06
MrChrisDruifmaco: Please share :)23:07
* TheMuso shudders... Speakup, yuck!23:07
macoMrChrisDruif: i have a friend who annoyed her coworkers for MONTHS because she had no idea that every time her visual bell was going off it was also BEEPing very loudly23:07
macowhen you turn on the visual bell, nothing asks whether you want to disable the noisy one too23:07
hajour1great TheMuso  i looking forward to it23:07
MrChrisDruifmaco: Alright, never knew / thought about that :)23:07
JanCMrChrisDruif: if you are deaf *and* blind things are somewhat more complicated though  ;)23:08
macothough i think a lot of what needs to be done on the deaf front is more community-facing:  convince people transcripts are good23:08
TheMusoThe bell stuff is actually quite complicated.23:08
JanCMrChrisDruif: ask erkan^ ...23:08
AlanBellUndiFineD: what is the library *for*?23:08
TheMusoAnd I don't think many people, if any, understand it properly.23:08
* Pendulum goes for food before she passes out. 23:08
MrChrisDruifJanC: Indeed...but that would be a separate persona 23:08
Pendulumcatch y'all later!23:08
joaniehttp://2009.hfoss.org/VizAudio23:08
hajour1o i wanted to ask something23:08
macoTheMuso: and she's a fedora user, so hers probably did it differently than ubuntu's does anyway (we have hardware bell disabled in favour of soft bell, right?)23:08
charlie-tcaOkay, I have to write up my natty release notes for Xubuntu now23:08
UndiFineDAlanBell, it makes it easier for c programs to link to openmary23:09
AlanBellhmm23:09
MrChrisDruifcharlie-tca: good luck23:09
TheMusomaco: Yes, thats right. For GNOME, all bell audio playback is handeled by libcanberra, however compiz doesn't have proper support for this yet, something that I need to fix.23:09
AlanBellthat would be a bad idea UndiFineD 23:09
hajour1is there someone here who can make a technical drawing from a aquipment?23:09
* webczat likes the speakup thing because when using a hardware synthesizer, it can speak some early system bootup messages pre-initrd23:09
AlanBellthey should be linking to speech dispatcher23:09
MrChrisDruifmaco: Transcripts? What do you mean?23:09
TheMusowebczat: Yeah, but IMO if a distro like Ubuntu is used, thats less important, and if something fails, then you have bigger problems.23:10
macoMrChrisDruif: most people dont think about transcribing video tutorials23:10
UndiFineDAlanBell, no it is not, it makes browserspeak possible23:10
macowait thats for blind23:10
hajour1TheMuso,  you now also what libopenmary is 23:10
macobah brain is going backwards23:10
AlanBelland what is browserspeak?23:10
macoi meant subtitling23:10
TheMusohajour1: I have an idea yes.23:10
hajour1maybe can youy explain it to AlanBell 23:11
MrChrisDruifmaco: I don't know what transcribing is? Is that like subtitling?23:11
TheMusohajour1: But not 100% sure. I know its something to do with speech synthesis...23:11
MrChrisDruifAhh...subtitling :)23:11
macoMrChrisDruif: well actually, could be both....23:11
JanCMrChrisDruif: makign a script that explains everything that happens23:11
macoMrChrisDruif:  transcribing is making a script of it. subtitling is putting that script straight in23:11
JanCa "script" similar to a film or theater script 23:11
MrChrisDruifWhat the system is doing?23:12
macotranscribing, if more detailed than just what was said (including visual descriptions) can be useful for blindness too23:12
maco(at least, i would think so...)23:12
JanCMrChrisDruif: what the video is showing23:12
macoMrChrisDruif: this is more to do with video documentation that people in the community make though23:12
macobut also, improving subtitling software would be nice23:12
macobecause having tried it:  ugh23:12
UndiFineDso, se selct a bunch of text in the browser, browserspeak passes it to libopenmary, which passes it to openmary, it gets processed and a few seconds later, the text is spoken23:12
MrChrisDruifYeah, but what about transcribing the system?23:13
hajour1TheMuso,  see line above from UndiFineD 23:13
macoif you're deaf-blind, your screenreader should be pushing out to a braille tty23:13
macosince just plain spoken screenreading won't work23:13
TheMusoRight, so openmary is a speech synth.23:13
TheMusoSo apps that want to use it should go through speech dispatcher.23:13
webczatorca can do it23:13
AlanBellUndiFineD: so like orca does anyway, but via speech dispatcher23:13
hajour1yes TheMuso 23:13
TheMusoAnd openmary needs a speech dispatcher sdriver23:13
AlanBellTheMuso: it does23:14
UndiFineDcorrect TheMuso 23:14
AlanBellso libopenmary isn't a speech dispatcher driver for openmary23:14
webczatthe bes packet. speech dispatcher + a hardware synth + speakup + orca + brltty :o23:14
JanCit might be needed for a speed dispatcher driver?23:14
macoi should be seeing a deaf friend from Red Hat in a couple weeks, possibly also meeting up with some comp sci teachers from the local deaf uni as well, so "what would be useful" is something i'll be sure to ask23:14
UndiFineDno, it is a step in between23:14
hajour1sometimes its very nice to have someone who can translate it :) TheMuso 23:14
JanCisn't OpenMary in Java or soemthing like that?23:15
macoMrChrisDruif: oh, something else i remember another deaf friend saying about electronics in general:  vibration haptics need to be stronger in some devices23:15
UndiFineDJanC, yes23:15
AlanBellJanC: it is in java but there is a web REST API to it23:15
AlanBellfeed in text, get back sounds23:16
hajour1nice maco  i appriciate your suggestions with vibrasound23:16
JanCow, that should make it easy to use23:16
* joanie waves and wanders off23:16
MrChrisDruifmaco: I wasn't planning on some sissy vibrations :D23:16
TheMusoSo given speech-dispatcher's speech driver model, it certainly wouldn't be hard to write an openmary driver then.23:17
MrChrisDruifhajour1: Name needs to be rethought probably...23:17
hajour1yes ofcours MrChrisDruif  but needed to name it for now23:17
AlanBellTheMuso: not at all23:18
hajour1i am searching for a person who canb make a cat drawing23:18
AlanBellin fact could probably be done with config files and the standard openmary toolset23:18
hajour1cad i mean23:18
hajour1bah language mistakes23:18
MrChrisDruifhajour1: If you're going to announce vibrasound @ UDS, then make sure that it's only a development name! :)23:18
hajour1i think we need to be further before we go talk about that at uds MrChrisDruif 23:19
MrChrisDruifJust making sure O:-)23:19
hajour1it need to have more shape for launching23:19
JanCyou can always mention it & as an experimental project  ;)23:20
hajour1i now MrChrisDruif :)23:20
hajour1it would help when we have a technical drawing from it but it is short time before uds23:20
TheMusoAlanBell: Possibly, but a native driver would allow for callbacks etc.23:20
hajour1but i not yet have found a person who can make that23:21
AlanBellTheMuso: understood, just wondering if I can hack something together with the generic driver to see how it sounds when saying the right stuff23:22
TheMusoAlanBell: Yeah you very likely could.23:22
hajour1great if you would try it out AlanBell 23:22
hajour1and give feedback ofcourse AlanBell 23:23
UndiFineDthe online demo is not working at the moment, browserspeak works great, and I am looking into xchat plugins to make it work there as well23:23
hajour1:(23:24
jbichaerror message in Banshee: "Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation."23:24
macouseful23:24
hajour1jbicha,  what means invocation?23:24
macohajour1: like "call"23:24
hajour1mm ok23:25
TheMusoYay mono.23:25
hajour1not very clear then not to me anyway23:26
UndiFineDpretty much a useless exception23:26
AlanBellyeah, this will work23:27
hajour1can we mail them to explain more?23:27
hajour1just a sugestion23:27
jbichakeyboard shortcut bugs are accessibility right?23:28
hajour1do you mean libopenmary AlanBell  or something else?23:28
jbichais there a tag for that?23:29
AlanBellcool, well it looks like orca+openMary will work without too much trouble, but it is late here and the release tomorrow, might get it done over the weekend23:29
hajour1great AlanBell 23:29
UndiFineDhah AlanBell :)23:29
AlanBellhajour1: there is no need for libopenmary which is great as it means no new packages23:29
AlanBelljust get openmary itself into debian and a config file in /etc/speech-dispatcher23:30
UndiFineDthat would be great23:31
JanChm, doesn't speech dispatcher use some complicated XML format?  or was that its predecessor?23:31
TheMusoNo.23:31
TheMusoSpeech-dispatcher uses simple text config files.23:31
TheMusoAlthough that may change in the future.23:31
TheMusoSpeech-dispatcher currently uses a library for config files that is not really maintained much upstream.23:32
JanCI mean to send text to the speech synth?23:32
hajour1that would be great AlanBell  if that is possible23:32
TheMusoOh right.23:32
TheMusoSpeech-dispatcher has its own API, but uses SSML to speak to synths that support it.23:32
AlanBellJanC: http://dhvani.sourceforge.net/tools/dhvani-generic.conf example generic config file23:33
hajour1AlanBell,  if that succeed is orca then also useful for leightweight pc s ?23:33
JanCI think I looked into it something like 3-4 years ago, so things might have changed  ;)23:33
AlanBellthis is where the magic happens ->   GenericExecuteSynth "echo \"$DATA\" > /tmp/sddhvani | /usr/bin/dhvani /tmp/sddhvani"23:33
JanCnice, I have some 3-4 year old project to finish then  ;)23:34
AlanBellmake a command line which turns $DATA into sound using your favourite speech synth23:34
JanCor maybe older23:34
charlie-tcajbicha: a11y23:35
* MrChrisDruif goes to bed...Aloha!23:36
hajour1goodnight MrChrisDruif \23:36
hajour1if anyone hears from a person who have the skill to make a technical drawing .....23:37
* hajour1 wishes she had get more education in past and coald make it herself23:38
hajour1and maco   your sugestions helps very to make the vibrasound equipment really useble23:40
hajour1already hoped you would give comment maco 23:41
TheMuso7/c23:41
hajour1what do 7/c TheMuso ?23:42
hajour1what do it means i meant23:42
hajour1sorry i not know all that signs yet23:42
JanChe probably mistyped an IRC command to change to another channel or so  ☺23:42
TheMusoIt was a typo.23:42
hajour1a ok sorry misunderstood then TheMuso 23:43
AlanBellso if you install openMary and go to this url (with a browser or wget or curl or something) http://localhost:59125/process?INPUT_TEXT=Hello+to+the+Ubuntu+Accessibility+team&INPUT_TYPE=TEXT&OUTPUT_TYPE=AUDIO&AUDIO=WAVE_FILE&LOCALE=en_US23:50
AlanBellyou get a wav file that sounds like this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/mary.wav23:50
AlanBellso the config file needs to do a curl to that kind of URL, pop the wav file in /tmp and play it23:51
AlanBellreally going to bed this time23:51
JanCyou need to learn it how to pronounce Ubuntu though   ;)23:51
AlanBellcan be done23:51
JanCwell, not "you" 23:51
AlanBellthere are rules based pronounciation corrections23:52
AlanBellit gets gnome right23:52
webczatdon't remind me how espeak speaks "w ubuntu" in polish. :d nevermind23:53
hajour1ok thanks again for helping AlanBell 23:54
hajour1and goodnight AlanBell 23:54
hajour1lol webczat 23:55
webczatit looks like "wooboodoo"23:55
hajour1XD23:56

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