[00:23] <snail> moring
[00:39]  * Atamira is waiting for the rain to stop
[00:39] <Atamira> bet it will be fine the minute i go back to work
[00:40] <ajmitch> rain? what rain? :)
[00:44] <Atamira> its rain here
[00:44] <Atamira> in akld
[20:41] <snail> morning all
[20:45] <ajmitch> morning
[21:26] <lifeless> anyone know anyone at citylink? they seem to have failed to mirror natty quite spectacularly
[21:26] <lifeless> I'm going to see if I can get them pulled from the nirror rotation in the interim
[21:27] <ajmitch> lifeless: which mirror does citylink have?
[21:27] <lifeless> nz.a.u.c
[21:27] <lifeless> host nz.archive.ubuntu.com
[21:27] <lifeless> nz.archive.ubuntu.com is an alias for ubuntu.citylink.co.nz.
[21:27] <lifeless> ubuntu.citylink.co.nz has address 202.7.6.10
[21:27] <ajmitch> http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-releases/natty/ looks ok for me
[21:28] <lifeless> 08:22 < lifeless> $ wget --no-cache http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/n/nspr/libnspr4-0d_4.8.7-0ubuntu1_amd64.deb
[21:28] <lifeless> 08:22 < lifeless> 2011-04-29 08:20:48 ERROR 404: Not Found.
[21:28] <lifeless> 08:22 < lifeless>  wget --no-cache http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/n/nspr/libnspr4-0d_4.8.7-0ubuntu1_amd64.deb
[21:28] <lifeless> 08:22 < lifeless> Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
[21:28] <lifeless> 404s on that and a few other files for a maverick->natty upgrade
[21:28] <hads> I noticed that just now actually
[21:28] <lifeless> ajmitch: also they do magic anycast stuff
[21:29] <ajmitch> yeah, split between SF & wellington depending on how badly your ISP peers
[21:29] <ajmitch> http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/n/nspr/ is just empty
[21:30] <ajmitch> a.u.c has those files there, dated from january, so it's choked somehow
[21:31] <hads> :%s/nz/nz2/
[21:32] <lifeless> hads: not really an answer for consumers :)
[21:32] <lifeless> #ubuntu-mirrors has chatter on this now
[21:44] <lifeless> ok, disabled and pointing at a.u.c now
[21:45] <ajmitch> that could be a little slow today
[21:45] <lifeless> ajmitch: slow and working
[21:45] <ajmitch> it couldn't point at the same mirror as nz2?
[21:45] <lifeless> 08:42 < lamont> lifeless: dns updated (dropped it, since we'd rather have the nz operator grumble about 'where'd the traffic go" than the nz2 operator scream about the wave that hit him)
[21:46] <ajmitch> heh, ok
[22:06] <ibeardslee> morning
[22:08] <ibeardslee> they have done that before
[22:08] <ibeardslee> point nz.a.u.c to nz2.a.u.c
[22:09] <ajmitch> but probably not on release day
[22:09] <ibeardslee> hmm yeah
[22:09]  * ibeardslee checks ubuntu.catalyst.net.nz
[22:11] <ibeardslee> Release 27-Apr-2011 00:17
[22:13] <ibeardslee> same as nz2
[22:14] <ajmitch> is that mirror not listed in the official list?
[22:14] <ibeardslee> the catalyst one? no
[22:15] <lifeless> so the citylink issue wasn't a missing release file
[22:15] <lifeless> it was (minimally, maybe more) a dozen files from jan just awol
[22:16] <ibeardslee> although catalyst being an official mirror for the kernel .. it is something I might bring up with the powers that be to consider what might happen to some of our traffic
[22:16] <ibeardslee> citylink is still behind though
[22:17] <ibeardslee> about 12 hours
[22:17] <ibeardslee> from nz2
[22:21] <ibeardslee> hmm n/m being redirected to a.u.c already
[22:21] <ibeardslee> sigh
[22:21] <lifeless> ibeardslee: citylink was 3+ months behind on some files
[22:21] <lifeless> ibeardslee: so it got taken out of rotation
[22:21] <ibeardslee> grrrr
[22:22]  * ibeardslee adjusts his sources.list .. probably on a more permanent basis
[22:22] <lifeless> ibeardslee: I'm going to try and track down an ihug person and ask if they can handle release day
[22:23] <lifeless> if so, will get it pointed at them
[22:23] <hads> Natty upgrade in 52 minutes on this laptop, not too shabby
[22:24] <lifeless> ibeardslee: nz.a.u.c. should always work is the problem - but our mirror prober fails on citylink because of their hidden nz-only host + anycast
[22:25] <ibeardslee> I'll have a talk to catalyst when I am back at work about it
[22:26] <lifeless> ibeardslee: cool
[22:26] <lifeless> don't suppose anyone here knows anyone (from either citylink or ihug)'s irc handle + channel ?
[22:26] <ibeardslee> see if ubuntu.catalyst.net.nz could be nz.a.u.c .. although they may want to restrict international traffic
[22:27] <hads> No idea who you'd contact at vodafone
[22:27] <ibeardslee> lifeless: sorry no
[22:27] <hads> The ihug guy used to hang out here
[22:27] <hads> Not for ages though
[22:27] <lifeless> its fine to throttle international traffic; the mirror prober has to be allowed unfettered access (or you'll be taken out of rotation :P)
[22:28] <ibeardslee> my big gripe is that there are no TelstraClear peered nz archives
[22:28] <snail> there used to be a vuw mirror didn't there? anyone recall url?
[22:29] <lifeless> ibeardslee: I'm not surprised, telstra are...interesting in .au in ISP circles
[22:30] <ibeardslee> lifeless: the origins of TelstraClear in NZ used to be awesome .. Paradise, Saturn
[22:32] <lifeless> yeah
[22:32] <lifeless> hard to tell how much remains and how much business dictates from telstra have impacted
[22:32] <Atamira> mornin
[22:33] <lifeless> my dads on telstraclear and has heinous trouble with dns lookups going awry, the $$$#$R%#$ intercepting cache etc
[22:33] <lifeless> I would /so/ pay more to get real internet.
[22:35] <ibeardslee> everytime T/C mention that the UFB isn't needed, I tell them it is because they don't peer
[22:35] <lifeless> UFB ?
[22:35] <hads> That new scrollbar widget is annoying to position the pointer on.
[22:35] <ajmitch> now if only open peering were a requirement of UFB
[22:35] <ibeardslee> ultra fast broadband project
[22:35] <lifeless> oh
[22:35] <ibeardslee> ajmitch: I agree on that one
[22:36] <ibeardslee> it used to be bloody good for that
[22:36] <lifeless> so its not; we need the new international cable first - or is that the same thing? [no browser atm, can't google]
[22:36] <hads> You have to go all the way to the right of the screen to activate it and then left a few pixels to actually use it.
[22:36] <ibeardslee> lifeless .. I sort of disagree
[22:36] <ajmitch> lifeless: ufb is just the fibre to the home part
[22:37] <hads> Nothing to do with International bandwidth
[22:37] <hads> (which will still be crap)
[22:37] <ibeardslee> with decent peering .. more services will able to be hosted in NZ
[22:37] <ajmitch> rather than having everyone on a nice shiny fast fibre network & having packets go to australia or the US for content in NZ?
[22:37] <hads> And we can still pay the same for bandwidth to them :)
[22:37] <lifeless> ibeardslee: what sort of services are you thinking of?
[22:38] <lifeless> well, going international for local content is batshit itself
[22:38] <lifeless> but - for instance, - WoW is never going to host a cluster here
[22:38] <ibeardslee> eg au.archive.ubuntu.com is faster(ish) for me than nz.archive.ubuntu.com
[22:38] <lifeless> youtubes
[22:38] <lifeless> facebook etc
[22:38] <lifeless> their primary content is so dynamic, they can and do use a cdn for handling hotspots
[22:39] <lifeless> skype / voip of any sort
[22:39] <ibeardslee> hmm yeah
[22:39] <hads> What about VoIP?
[22:39] <ibeardslee> but I think they are decent enough
[22:40] <lifeless> ibeardslee: 7pm at night they are messed up
[22:40] <ibeardslee> local content available local (not via the US) is critical
[22:40] <lifeless> hads: international voip calls get messed up if you suffer more than a few % packet loss
[22:40] <ajmitch> hopefully the project won't get too bogged down with political wrangling
[22:40] <lifeless> hads: last two weeks I haven't been able to call internationally in the early evening reliably
[22:41] <lifeless> ibeardslee: I agree that that is a good thing - but:
[22:41] <ibeardslee> then (in an ideal world) we can get a local region dependant streaming etc
[22:41] <hads> lifeless: That would depend on the VoIP providers upstream
[22:41] <lifeless> hads: huh no, its udp all the way
[22:41] <ibeardslee> although in a more ideal worl region wouldn't matter
[22:41] <ibeardslee> world
[22:41] <lifeless> hads: setup is centralised, traffic flow is point to point
[22:41] <hads> No
[22:42] <hads> lifeless: Use a local provider with decent interconnects and then the traffic is their concern, all you need to worry about it your path to them.
[22:42] <ibeardslee> ajmitch: it will :(
[22:42] <lifeless> hads: they still need available international capacity
[22:42] <hads> Traffic flow is not usually point to point with SIP/RTP, it can be but more than often it's not.
[22:43] <lifeless> hads: depends on the exchange IIRC
[22:44] <lifeless> hads: anyhow the point is that if traffic for me is poor, eithe rI'm shaped (and undeclared so - the 'what your adsl sync as is what you get is a lie')
[22:44] <ibeardslee> well me has to take some rubbish to the tip and then work out if the budget can handle a nook colour
[22:44] <ibeardslee> back later
[22:44] <lifeless> hads: or there is a shortage of intl capacity
[22:44] <hads> 99.9% of the time your media is going to go through the service provider, if it didn't you would have all sorts of one way audio issues with RTP not getting through firewalls and NAT.
[22:45] <ajmitch> there are so many points in the network where capacity can be an issue
[22:45] <hads> Yup
[22:45] <ajmitch> international being the big one
[22:45] <lifeless> hads: of course, thats why your nat box needs a sip proxy
[22:45] <lifeless> <- not entirely clueless; ran a distributed asterisk setup in .au for a while
[22:46] <hads> <- does VoIP all day
[22:46] <lifeless> hads: nice
[22:47] <lifeless> hads: we kinda got stuck on one protocol
[22:47] <lifeless> hads: my point is that there are many, and when there *is* scarcity it drives prices and things like shaping, intercepting proxies etc
[22:47] <lifeless> which the 'net is not designed to have or to handle
[22:47] <hads> Agreed
[22:47] <lifeless> peering is a commercial design driven by actual interconnects and costs
[22:48] <lifeless> if telstraclear aren't peering its because they make more money not peering
[22:48] <hads> This scrollbar thing isn't going to bug me
[22:48] <lifeless> that may be fixable by changing the business environment - e.g. the rules under which peering happens
[22:48] <lifeless> or by changing the resources available
[22:50] <lifeless> I guess my larger point is that to fix this just saying it must be so won't work - if the govt tried, for instance, they would get impassioned pleas about how its unrelated, unfair etc
[22:50] <lifeless> but if the drivers of not-peering can be determined, attack the root cause