[20:54] <jMCg> Keybuk: ETA until the new, super great features are released? (Automatic logging, run as user, capabilities)
[21:36] <Keybuk> jMCg: I don't have a patch for automatic logging ;)
[21:38] <jMCg> Keybuk: how difficult is it to achieve that everything upstart runs through exec, pre-start, post-start, etc... has it's stdout and stderr filtered to /var/log/upstart/service[:instance].log ?
[21:40] <jMCg> That would be really helpful, when you change a config, restart, and all of sudden mysql is givin you the finger and you don't know why.
[21:41] <Keybuk> jMCg: it requires a logging service running that receives input from those file descriptors and writes to the filesystem
[21:41] <Keybuk> while coping with buffering due to read-only filesystem during boot
[21:42] <Keybuk> and deals with a filesystem being fundamentally read-only (Chromium OS, for example)
[21:42] <Keybuk> and also avoiding the problem where if that logging service dies, every single process on the system immediately SIGPIPEs
[21:44] <jMCg> Keybuk: I suppose SMF simply requires you to run your Solaris on an Filesystem that doesn't suck... - or it logs only services which depend on milestones >= filesystem
[21:45] <Keybuk> I don't know, I haven't looked at SMF in years
[21:45] <jMCg> And I haven't looked at it in.. hours.
[22:07] <JanC> Keybuk: weren't you going to include a logging daemon, cron, initd, at, udevd, a dbus daemon and an X session manager into upstart?  ;-)
[22:08] <jMCg> No X please, it's obsolete. But we could put in a kernel.
[22:09] <JanC> :P
[22:11] <Keybuk> JanC: a variation of "include into" that means people could pick and chose their components and defaults
[22:11] <Keybuk> upstart is not systemd after all ;)
[22:13] <JanC> well, I think personally you don't need cron into upstart, but a time-based service could issue events that upstart then handles
[22:14] <jMCg> IIRC, launchd has something of that kind
[22:14] <JanC> which is probably what you were thinking already
[22:15] <Keybuk> JanC: I see that as the same thing
[23:08] <jMCg> "cgroups are used to track service processes, instead of PIDs. This means that daemons cannot "escape" systemd even by double-forking."
[23:09] <ion> There are problems with using cgroups like that, which is why Upstart will go with an approach based on proc connector.
[23:09] <jMCg> I thought it used ptrace?
[23:10] <ion> “will go”
[23:11] <Keybuk> jMCg: and yet systemd explicitly recommends software doesn't daemonize
[23:11] <Keybuk> man daemon on a sd system
[23:11] <Keybuk> so I guess that works well for them
[23:12] <jMCg> Keybuk: what does upstart recommend?
[23:12] <Keybuk> "Moreover, since some of these steps interfere with process monitoring [...] of the init system is recommended not to execute them"
[23:12] <Keybuk> jMCg: Upstart recommends that if your software doesn't work with the init daemon, you file a bug on the init daemon ;)
[23:13] <jMCg> +1 :)
[23:13] <JanC> well, I guess there are several ways to handle forking etc., and all have pros & cons?
[23:14] <JanC> the easiest is if services are well-behaving themselves  ;)
[23:15] <ion> Daemonizing can’t really be thought as bad behavior per se.
[23:16] <ion> In fact it can used as a good indicator about when the daemon is ready.
[23:16] <JanC> right, but I was thinking more about starting sub-processes and then not keeping track of them
[23:17] <jMCg> heh.. SMF has killed my "daemons" after a timeout (usually 60) seconds, when I forgot to add a '&'
[23:17] <JanC> sombody complained about the earlier
[23:17] <JanC> about that
[23:17] <jMCg> That was me.
[23:17] <JanC> ;)
[23:17] <jMCg> I've got a bug on that.
[23:18] <jMCg> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TS-755
[23:19] <jMCg> I said if nobody complains, I'll commit that shit. Nobody's complained in three days. I think I can commit it.
[23:21] <JanC> hehe, we just set a rule for the new ubuntu-be locoteam leadership council "if nobody complains within 7 days, a proposal is accepted"  ;)
[23:22] <jMCg> How long can someone complain about that rule, or is that instantly valid?
[23:22] <JanC> it was proposed last Monday, and will be formally accepted next Sunday  ;)
[23:23] <jMCg> On a sunday, that's unfair, people are hungover on sunday.
[23:23] <jMCg> wh00t. I just realized, I haven't tested this shit.
[23:24] <JanC> Sunday evening  :P
[23:24] <JanC> anyway
[23:24] <JanC> it was already accepted by everybody important today  :P