[08:53] <fredrik_> hello
[13:52] <darkmatter> hiho coz_
[13:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy 8)
[13:52] <coz_> 8)
[13:52] <coz_> sorry big fingers and just awoke :)
[13:53] <darkmatter> np. I havmt slept yet. lol
[13:53] <darkmatter> <-- insomnia
[13:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo guy,,, you need to sleep
[13:53] <darkmatter> coz_: once I get tired ;)
[13:54] <darkmatter> so trying to be productive. lol
[13:54] <darkmatter> not getting much success with that
[13:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok ,, I completely understand
[13:56] <darkmatter> coz_: I'm smoking a redhat :O
[13:56] <darkmatter> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10734324&postcount=533
[13:56] <darkmatter> :P
[13:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo ,, I had to log into the forum :)  thats a very nice view there :)
[13:58] <zniavre_> does css difficult ?
[13:59] <darkmatter> zniavre_: the format for gtk3 is quite nice
[13:59] <zniavre_> i read yesterday what s cimi said i a bit disapointed to make my own theme in css style
[13:59] <zniavre_> i am*
[14:00] <zniavre_> im installing gnome3 on vbox to hav a look also
[14:00] <zniavre_> :o)
[14:01] <darkmatter> coz_: gnome3 is fraking _light_ compared to vanilla gnome2+compiz. has more than enough eyecandy and uses half the resources :O
[14:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  on fedora  yes?
[14:01] <coz_> darkmatter,   and mutter is not acting up with over use of resources?
[14:02] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. same on opensuse. but its default on fedora, so less crap than updating and breaking stuff
[14:03] <darkmatter> coz_: nope. runs fine. only tradeoff is I'm using the nouveau drivers (they're actually quite good) because the nvidia drivers for my card have yet to be updated with proper glx :P
[14:04] <darkmatter> but nvnews forums say that the legacy drivers will actully be getting updates to be compatible \o/
[14:05] <zniavre_> 173 .14.xx?
[14:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh !   honestly  I dont like gnome3  ... if they had gone the "gnome3  clever windows"  route   it would have over taken compiz  but  the diretion they are going in  is   not ever going to catch up.. and it makes we wonder why ,,like ubuntu,, they have not discarded mutter / gnome3   om favor of compiz
[14:05] <darkmatter> coz_: running about 8% cpu (more if I have bloat like firefox running, obviously), and about 180 megs of ram on an empty session
[14:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  whoa that is WAY  too much for a compositor
[14:06] <darkmatter> coz_: thats not the compositor. thats EVERYTHING
[14:06] <darkmatter> gnome 2 and compiz is heavier
[14:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  well still thats more than  compiz and everything else
[14:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  not here it isnt
[14:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  compiz 0.9.x  is far less resource intensive than that
[14:07] <darkmatter> coz_you probably have better hardware. gnome2+compiz uses 17ish% here
[14:07] <coz_> I realize that in its infancy,, compiz was just a proof of concept...but that is Looong gone
[14:08] <coz_> and it irritates the hell out of me that some developers  just got jealous about our progress over the years
[14:08] <coz_> kde has their own compositor  one of its developers used to be a developer on compiz
[14:08] <darkmatter> mutter is surprisingly _better_ in a lot of ways. not knocking compiz. but holy... cowpooh
[14:08] <coz_> gnome doesnt surprise me with  mutter  but it is a big mistake
[14:09] <coz_> seems to me,, that mark shuttleworth made the right decision about discarding mutter,, and hiring sam  to Canonical to get things done right
[14:09] <coz_> sam being the developer on compiz now
[14:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  sorry,, on this issue I have to disagree with  you  completely
[14:10] <coz_> mutter is a mistake
[14:10] <darkmatter> coz_: well, ubuntu had crap code with the clutter based unity. mutter is solid. I'm running on old and outdated hardware that compiz/unity i a slug on
[14:11] <darkmatter> mutter is far from a mistake
[14:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm
[14:12] <darkmatter> coz_: nvidia FX 5200, XP +2000 (1.67 Ghz) and 512 megs of ram
[14:12] <darkmatter> snappy
[14:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  maybe  but  gnome is causing an issue with gnome3  just as kde is trying to do,, to  banish compiz   ,, I dont see the development sense to that,, neither of them are as good as  compiz  certainly not at this stage and I doubt seriously that mutter will ever reach that stage,,  unless they went with clever windows
[14:13] <darkmatter> coz_: bah. "banish compiz" :P I dn't care what the core compositor is, as long as it's pretty and runs smooth as silk ;)
[14:13] <coz_> and being  gnome based,, mutter is always going to have  way fewer user choices and settings
[14:13] <darkmatter> coz_: define "clever windows"
[14:14] <darkmatter> mutters windows seem pretty darn clever to me
[14:14] <coz_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk
[14:14] <coz_> ^^ that was a mock up  titled , in the past as gnome3 clever windows
[14:15] <coz_> had they gone ^^ that route  ,, they could have seriously  competed with compiz
[14:15] <darkmatter> coz_: not argung against compiz, but "15000 settings" does not mean "better" it means more options. if thats yer thing. great
[14:15] <coz_> mutter,, typcially a gnome  product,, didnt want or couldnt go that route
[14:16] <coz_> rather a typcial gnome project
[14:16] <coz_> product
[14:16] <coz_> I only use gnome here,, but they are the most irritating group of developers
[14:17] <coz_> they are subborn  , arrogant,, and in my opinion,, idiots
[14:17] <coz_> mutter represents that same phylosophy  in my eyes
[14:17] <darkmatter> lol. nice opinion, because they don't support compiz :P
[14:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  no  not just that,, I have always felt that way lol
[14:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  but in terms of compiz,, instead of working with the team,,, they fought it from day one
[14:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  i once aked the developers for a command to  empty the recent documents,, they told me there is not such thing  and cannot be done
[14:20] <coz_> pfft
[14:20] <coz_> phfft
[14:21] <darkmatter> coz_: I swear, mutter is better than compiz. sure, you can argue features. but mutters features are all anyone actually _needs_. if you want more. use compiz. lol
[14:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  well yes  but that ;s not why mutter has fewer choices,,, it has fewer choices because of the developers and their stupidity
[14:23] <darkmatter> coz_: oh come on. it has nothing to do with stupidity. all the needed features are there. do you _need_ wobbly windows? no.. I dun think so
[14:23] <darkmatter> at least gnome is handled by actual designers now :P
[14:24] <coz_> darkmatter,   eeww  not dude,, gnome's phylosophy is STILL .. users are idiots and fewer choices are better "
[14:24] <darkmatter> coz_: its all about your opinion of what is a "feature"
[14:24] <coz_> and yes I really need wobbly :)
[14:26] <darkmatter> coz_: seriously? because I see "lets make things more usable for a larger number of people". I mean, unless your calling me an idiot. because I happen to like the "works out of the box and doesn't shove a bazillion tones of uselessness in my face" approach :P
[14:26] <darkmatter> coz_: because until gnome3 I was about to _literally_ retire from using my computer
[14:27] <coz_> darkmatter,  seriously?
[14:27] <darkmatter> my poor cognitively dysfunctional brain couldn't handle it anymore
[14:27] <coz_> darkmatter,  i was going to go back to BeOs if gnome3 prevents compiz
[14:27] <darkmatter> too much useless clutter and crap
[14:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  here's the issue,, there is absolutely no reason gnome developers couldnt put in a tick box for either gnome3 / mutter and  gnome with compiz
[14:29] <coz_> there is nothing preventing that
[14:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  but they will not
[14:30] <coz_> darkmatter,  now compiz has to find another way around the issue
[14:30] <darkmatter> unity is a freaking eye/butt/sore (just my opinion after having used it for a week)
[14:30] <coz_> darkmatter,  that is absolutely true ^^
[14:30] <darkmatter> coz_: what issue? run gnome in fallback, replace metacity with compiz, lol
[14:31] <darkmatter> shell is deeply integrated with mutter for a reason, and it's not because of compiz :P
[14:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  no  not replace metacity  because metacity is no more with mutter  .... mutter =  metacity-clutter
[14:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah this one I am in complete disagreement
[14:32] <darkmatter> coz_: no. there is still metacity. its in fallback (aka: your ard cant/wont run shell or you don't want shell) mode
[14:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok,, then its possible
[14:32] <darkmatter> system settings > system info > graphics > force fallback mode
[14:32] <darkmatter> *bam" metacity
[14:32] <darkmatter> like magic
[14:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  seriously ,, if all distributions go with gnome3,, which eventually they will,, I go back to Be
[14:33] <darkmatter> an a gnome 2ish desktop
[14:33] <darkmatter> coz_: if you hate mutte r/love compiz that much, feel free
[14:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  I do love compiz
[14:34] <coz_> darkmatter,  and  the entire project has talked about this over and again when mutter first reared its ugly ass
[14:34] <darkmatter> coz_: I'm not a fanboy. I call it as I see it. what I see is a desktop I can actually use, and that is faster/more productive for me. gives me awesome composited performance without the tearing I had with compiz.
[14:34] <darkmatter> therefore I use it
[14:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm   I think this whole netbook mentality will fade at some point
[14:35] <darkmatter> if it woulda been worse than compiz. then I would have threw a fit and moved to xfce :P
[14:36] <coz_> darkmatter,  well  at this point I am still most definitly not a fan of mutter or gnome3,,,  I doubt that will change,, but I will at some point try it again
[14:36] <darkmatter> the only thing I love is an environment that works for me (tm) ;)
[14:37] <darkmatter> took me 30 seconds to learn gnome-shell :P
[14:37] <darkmatter> shell is not the platform, just a small part of it
[14:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok  I am not putting you down for using it,,, i just cannot wrap my head around gnome development mentality
[14:38] <darkmatter> gnome3 as a whole is nice. I can understand some people not liking shell. use what works for you
[14:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  this is true :)
[14:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  I just have issues with their developers,, have for years,,, I dont like them
[14:39] <coz_> :)
[14:40] <darkmatter> but 25 years of computing. tons of gui' and crap. OS/2, next, beos (still love that), etc etc etc etc. gnome-shell is the best desktop (besides Be) I've had the pleasure of using ;)
[14:40] <darkmatter> but just my opinion
[14:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  wow that is some statement,,
[14:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  well I will check it out again,,  no promises  :)
[14:45] <darkmatter> coz_: but it's more gnome3 as  a whole. it has the speed/simplicity I crave. It's far from complete, being a fresh start (for the most part), so has a few holes, but if you compare it to kde4's initial release, it's far superior imo.
[14:46] <darkmatter> desktop loads in about 4 seconds on this old rustbucket
[14:46] <darkmatter> gnome2, unity, kde4 take about 3 days. lol (ok, not literally, just feels like 3 days :P)
[14:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok ,, as I said,, i will try it again,,  I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz
[14:47] <darkmatter> coz_: not trying to sell you on trying it, just stating my experiences
[14:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  now KDE is absolutely beautiful  but rediculously resource intensive
[14:47] <darkmatter> try what you like. maybe an osx lion vm. LOL:P
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  well I  know we generally think alike,, so I cant just dismiss  your opinions about it :)
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  never OSX
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  I would go windows before mac
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  at least windows has a compiz clone available
[14:49] <darkmatter> mutter kinda reminds me of aero sans glass
[14:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm that definitly will not sell me lol
[14:51] <darkmatter> coz_: not the resources, just the "enough" animations. they're different than aero though
[14:51] <darkmatter> but thats why it reminds me of it. enough to be pretty. course I could say "reminds me of OSX" in that regard as well
[14:52] <darkmatter> coz_: although mutter does do dialog sheets kinda like mac o.O
[14:52] <vish> " <coz_> I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz "  same here... :)
[14:53] <coz_> vish,  cool   my  favorite person now  :)
[14:53] <vish> yay! ^Y take that darkmatter ! ;p
[14:53] <coz_> lol
[14:53] <coz_> yeah!
[14:53] <darkmatter> I hate you. lol
[14:54] <darkmatter> coz_: vish: I like cmpiz too. just saying mutter isn't any worse/better. just different
[14:54] <coz_> :)
[15:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  also  lol.... compiz changed the face of linux permanently and brought over thousands of people ,, and continues to do so,,more than anything has in linux's  18 years  ...so there  :)
[15:21] <darkmatter> yeah... if you say so...
[15:21] <coz_> lol
[15:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  just playing with you guy :)
[15:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  I understand your approach to things
[15:23] <darkmatter> coz_: :P
[15:23] <coz_> darkmatter,  I just feel that compiz has  attracted sooo many people to linux over that past few years,, something I dont think will happen again for about another 5 years,, I just dont see mutter  having that kind of global attraction
[15:26] <coz_> any anything that pulls people from windows  over to linux,, is a good thing...
[15:28] <darkmatter> coz_: compiz attraction is a corner case. most people switch because they're looking for a low-cost (or free) alternative that is relatively modern and compatible with what they require it for (so flash, java, blah blah blah. depending on individual usage cases). shiny is just icing. It may make it more appealing to some, but its not the selling point
[15:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  no no guy,, spend more time in #compiz.. we get people daily who are new to linux and the ONLY reason they switched was compiz
[15:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  and that has been consistent since beryl
[15:30] <darkmatter> coz_: that's a _trivial_ fraction of people who switch, quite frankly
[15:30] <darkmatter> you need to do your homework ;)
[15:30] <coz_> darkmatter,   ah I dont know,, i have been keeping tabs on this,, and the increase has been approximate 40% of new users because of compiz
[15:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  it is consistent,, and compiz has indeed pulled windows users over to linux,, my own clients  are also the same,, they love the fancy stuff but dont know what it is of course
[15:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  and they love linux now as well ,, not necessarily because of compiz anylonger
[15:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  most people I talk with say about the same thing,, Linux?  that is far too complex,, I am not that smart
[15:32] <darkmatter> lol... and no. once again. 40%... lol. not knocking compiz. but that's just false. ;)
[15:34] <coz_> darkmatter,  no dude  40% of the new users in #compiz  came to linux because of compiz
[15:34] <coz_> darkmatter,  that has been consistent,, and I think many involved in linux feel the same as you do,, but its true
[15:35] <darkmatter> oh. in #compiz. corner case explains corner case :P
[15:36]  * darkmatter keeps harassing coz_ for kicks ;P
[15:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  well  yes in a way,, but when you see the numbers stay consistent,, at least in that channel,, it does give pause for thought,,, compix has indeed brought over more people ,, aka windows users... to linux than anything in linux's 18 years
[15:38] <coz_> it was a global reaction to something that was quite remarkable that neither apple or windows could offer
[15:38] <darkmatter> opinions, opinions.
[15:38] <coz_> lol
[15:39] <darkmatter>  and compiz is a total rip of the compositor in longhorn 3(?)19. no lie. wobbly windows and all
[15:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  not too confident to speak about that,, but remember even mac users have come over because of compiz
[15:40] <darkmatter> microsoft dropped the features because 90% of users _hated_ it. lol
[15:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  which is another testament for linux
[15:40] <coz_> and the developers for compiz in my opinion
[15:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  windows users... are generally business  oriented  and dont care about thisng like that
[15:41] <coz_> however
[15:41] <coz_> darkmatter,   the IT guy for the city of Largo Florida  has converted the entire city governments computers over to linux with compiz,, and it is more than wanted by all of the employees
[15:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  dave_ largo  has a blog you can read about it
[15:42] <coz_> it is quite remarkable and the first "official" installation of linux/compiz
[15:42] <darkmatter> lol
[15:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  I mean linux with compiz
[15:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  it is the first  business / official use of compiz
[15:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  and the employees wanted more features  when dave had only in itialy given them a few
[15:44] <coz_> intially
[15:44] <coz_> damn fingers
[15:44] <coz_> inititially
[15:44] <coz_> damn l;ol
[15:44] <coz_> initially
[15:44] <darkmatter> ;';
[15:44] <darkmatter> ?
[15:44] <darkmatter> :p
[15:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  my fingers are way too big for this keyboard,, I am becoming accustomed to typos
[15:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  i need to find a big key keyboard
[15:45] <coz_> lol
[15:47] <darkmatter> blogs do not fact make. not saying he's lying, just saying it doesn't make it "first" ;)
[15:47] <darkmatter> Novell was the first pushing compiz _on by default_ back in its young days. just fyi. I'm pretty damn sure that put it "enabled" on entire infrastructures so they  could disable the bloody thing :P
[15:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  well yes  dave worked for novell so that makes sense
[15:48] <coz_> darkmatter  rather david what's his name who created compiz
[15:49] <coz_> david reveman
[15:49] <coz_> raveman
[15:49] <coz_> damn damn fingers
[15:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  but,,, novell did not push compiz as well as  beryl did,, and beryl was the beginning of the  global attraction to it.. it would have died with novell,,  had quinn storm not forked it
[15:52] <darkmatter> coz_: I know. and once again. I'm not saying I don't like compiz. I do. but I don't base my choices on "who came first" either. if I did I'd still run XFree86. lol
[15:52] <darkmatter> I _love_ what compiz is at it's core. I hate what compiz fusion turned it into. modularity ftw. but "basic modules in by default". not everyone wants emacs for a window manager
[15:52] <darkmatter> theres too much fluff in compiz, and not enough filling
[15:53] <darkmatter> once again, thats just a matter of packaging
[15:53] <darkmatter> but you get the point
[15:53] <vish> darkmatter: what does that even mean^ ?
[15:53] <vish> "not enough filling"
[15:54] <darkmatter> vish: tis a euphemism. look it up :P
[15:54] <vish> darkmatter: almost what they are trying to recreate in mutter has existed in compiz for a long long while
[15:55] <vish> darkmatter: i basically dont see the point to re-doing a new window manager , if you are basically going to be doing the same things again..
[15:55] <vish> compiz is just a set of a whole lot of bling.. what you dont need just done use it, its as simple as that
[15:55] <darkmatter> vish: so? lets drop kwin too. it recreates compiz features!
[15:55] <darkmatter> for crying out loud. all I said is "there is nothing wrong with mutter"
[15:55] <darkmatter> next thing you know I'll get lynched for liking windows 7
[15:56] <coz_> yes please drop kwin
[15:56] <vish> haha!
[15:56] <coz_> what a rediculous rip off of compiz and one on a DE that is already resource intensive,, redicuilous
[15:57] <vish> darkmatter: basically half of what mutter is doing or is planning to do is just what compiz could do 5yrs ago o.0
[15:57] <vish> compiz can be bare bones too!
[15:57] <vish> and the stupid thing is mutter can not work on legacy hardware..
[15:58] <vish> so basically anyone using mutter as a WM is trying to act like Windows. if you want new version of Windows you need new hardware
[15:58] <darkmatter> and what about the other half? oh, wait. compiz can't do that because it requires heavy handed integration. :P
[15:58] <darkmatter> vish: I'm ON legacy hardware
[15:59] <darkmatter> mutter works fine
[15:59] <vish> darkmatter: i dont think you are  on real legacy hardware ;p see their wiki page
[16:01] <darkmatter> vish. FX 5200. that counts as legacy by the wiki standards, so :P
[16:01] <vish> darkmatter: maybe you are lucky, but not everyone.. ;)
[16:01] <coz_> darkmatter,   I have a lesser machine and I admit compiz doesnt run smoothly,, and this is indeed a problem,, but  as it progresses and especially with the c++ verson ,, things are improving,,
[16:02] <darkmatter> and most of mutters "hardware" issues are "software" issues. it's called get nvidiot and crapti to update drivers properly ;)
[16:02] <vish> darkmatter: so those people are forced to use old gnome-panel when GNOME3 comes out..
[16:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  I have that card on that machine as well
[16:03] <vish> i really dont not understand their point of doing things only in mutter and telling compiz to sod off..  there is no possible way that things can ONLY be done like how it is now.. if it is so, then either the mutter/shell developers are soo basically ignorant to do WM things right
[16:03] <darkmatter> to heck with it! I hate anything that changes! *pulls out slackware 3.5 and installs*
[16:03] <darkmatter> *grumbles*
[16:04] <vish> darkmatter: i dont mind changing the interaction, and doing any of the designs right now in compiz ;)
[16:04] <vish> basically them shutting out compiz made it possible for Unity to even exist
[16:05] <vish> or rather much more easier
[16:05] <darkmatter> I can't run compiz in pekwm! ignorant pekwm developers! *grumbles* ;)
[16:06] <vish> darkmatter: you dont seem to be getting the point, though mutter existed earlier, they are doing the whole mutter dev *for* Shell and changing a lot of things..
[16:07] <vish> this is something that is being done new
[16:07] <vish> and there seems no point in re-doing things again and for no perceivable benefit
[16:08] <coz_> damn gome developers :)
[16:09] <darkmatter> vish: vish you're missing the point as well. it doesn't _matter_. well, actually, it does. because mutter runs more efficiently here than compiz 0.9x. with or without unity. I win because I can still use my rustbucket *and* have eyecandy.
[16:09] <darkmatter> choice is good. :D
[16:10] <coz_> this is true ^^^^^^^^^
[16:10] <vish> choice is good.. ;)
[16:10] <coz_> absolutely  true
[16:10] <coz_> which is why I hate gome developers lol
[16:10] <vish> but at what cost? Ubuntu is not going to be shipping Shell anytime in the near future
[16:10] <coz_> they do not have that phylosophy
[16:10] <vish> and Ubuntu is the largest distributor of GNOME..
[16:10] <coz_> thank  god,, krishna etc etc :)
[16:10] <darkmatter> coz_: you have a choice. you can choose to run fallback with compiz
[16:10] <darkmatter> lol
[16:11] <darkmatter> I've actually done it :P
[16:11] <coz_> darkmatter,   cool   and i will take that choice :)
[16:11] <darkmatter> just for kicks
[16:11] <darkmatter> like mutter better
[16:11] <coz_> compiz rules  dude !
[16:11] <coz_> lol
[16:11] <darkmatter> coz_: by better I mean (on this hardware)
[16:12] <darkmatter> err. (/"
[16:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  I completely understand,, and it does irritate me that  linux may be getting to the point...soon.. where it may not run on lesser systems... with or withouth compiz
[16:12] <darkmatter> dun ask me how I managed that flight of fingers
[16:12] <coz_> lol
[16:13] <coz_> plus if there is no compiz I cannot update the ccsm icons.. and then what will i do ??? :)
[16:13] <vish> lol!!
[16:14] <coz_> ok guys,, it is nearing lunch time here.. need to get some fruit or something ... be back in a bit  :)
[16:14] <darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
[16:16] <darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
[16:36] <coz_> and another thing!  lol
[16:37] <darkmatter> - darkmatter, 09:14 -
[16:37] <darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
[16:37] <darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
[16:37] <darkmatter> sad but true ^
[16:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is an issue for sure
[16:38] <darkmatter> coz_: at least its not a mac! :P
[16:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[16:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  well mac is "ok"  it is out of date in my opinion,, especially their menuing system which was designed to save realestate on 9" screens,, now ubunt has gone global menu,,  essentially identical to macs menus
[16:39] <darkmatter> yeah. like. to run our os (if your not a hacker who wants to spend DAYS illegally installing it on x86) you need this incredibly overpriced yet shiny new box over here....
[16:40] <coz_> the problem is that mac has not seen the inefficiency of their menuing system
[16:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[16:40] <darkmatter> not knocking apple hardware. but christ... I can get 4 comparable x86 systems fr the price of one. lol
[16:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  but there is no longer mac hardware,, they no longer manufacture it ,, it is all pc hardware gone t hrough extensive  systems integration now
[16:41] <coz_> thus the expense
[16:41] <darkmatter> yeah. same difference
[16:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  yet they cling to an  out of date menuing system because now it is  "mac" identifyable
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  and when I see ubuntu  moving to a mac like interface,, global menu,, buttons on the left,, I get worried
[16:42] <darkmatter> and then there's unity...
[16:42] <coz_> oy  yes and then there is unity
[16:42] <darkmatter> ubuntu should rebrand to "I Wish I was a Mac(tm) GNU/Linux ;p
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  the mistake I think they are making is that Unity sh ould  be Unity1  a separate install from  Ubuntu
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  I agree
[16:44] <darkmatter> if only nvidia would hurry up and fix the glx in the 173 drivers I'd be an extra happy camper. lol
[16:44] <darkmatter> they're supposedly working on it
[16:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is the downside of nvidia,,, the chipset itself is quite remarkable but their drivers never fully take advantage of it
[16:45] <coz_> and they are slow for linux driver issues
[16:47] <coz_> at least that's how I see it
[16:47] <darkmatter> coz_: seriously. mutter/compiz/kwin all fail in there own unique ways on the proprietary 173xx drivers. on nouveau... not an issue (by not an issue I mean "they work')
[16:47] <darkmatter> sure, compiz still has some tearing (not as bad as proprietary)
[16:47] <darkmatter> but all three run
[16:48] <darkmatter> kwin fails miserably on the proprietaries with compositing enabled
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  I agree,, but i still stand by the reason new users come to linux,, youtube  search for Ubuntu and most of the videos are about compiz in general
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh kwin is a pain in the ass  quite frankly
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  i think kde is quite beautiful... great looks,, really poor perforance
[16:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  kde is definitly not for lesser or mid range systems.. a huge mistake on their part
[16:51] <darkmatter> coz_: only _half_ the window redraws on 173xx with compositing in kwin. and people that complain about mutter being slow on the same drivers (it's a glx issue, not mutters fault. nvidia overwrites the default glx with there proprietary version (with less features)) has never tried kwin. :P
[16:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  ah yes,,
[16:53] <darkmatter> coz_: an any system (nvidia drivers in use) where shell/mutter lag. if you run a dbug output you'll see a bazillion glx errors.
[16:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  most likely ,,, and I agree it is nvidia and its drives probably at fault,,,
[16:54] <darkmatter> most of the so-called hardware issues are in fact _software_. it's not an issue with the new cards/drivers, since the libraries are updated with greater frequency
[16:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  which is why they should open source the damn drivers... how many  proprietary companies  drool over open source developers especially t he driver  developers
[16:55] <darkmatter> but. nvidia needs to either quite replacing stuff or upgrde there crap. lol
[16:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  if it were open sourced their sales would increase since the drivers would be better
[16:56] <darkmatter> coz_: it's a hardware dev trick. they WANT you to upgrade. I mean. I know the capabilities of this card just based off its components. it may be old, but its no slouch
[16:57] <coz_> darkmatter,  very true,, and as I said, nvidia chipses are quite remarkable with their capabilites
[16:57] <coz_> damn drivers
[16:57] <coz_> chipsets rather
[16:57] <darkmatter> coz_: most likely. I mean, I was hesitant about nouveau. but the few bits I've tested (incluyding some gaming) I get more FPS than the nvidia blobs. lol
[16:58] <darkmatter> somehing smell funky, and its not me
[16:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah nouveau has a chance  ,, just imagine though if nvidia  open sourced the drivers
[16:59] <darkmatter> coz_: yes. the benefits of nvidias specifics merged with the bits that nouveau does. :O
[16:59] <darkmatter> I'd have a geekgasm
[16:59] <coz_> lol
[17:00] <darkmatter> I _love_ nvidia hardware. but seriously... D.R.I.V.E.R.S.
[17:00] <coz_> darkmatter,  definitly agree
[17:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  as far as my opinion goes.. nvidia chipsets   are great,, now we need nouveau to show nvidia what they can actually do
[17:03] <darkmatter> yup
[17:04] <darkmatter> its getting there. particularily on the older chipsets. still has a way to go on the newer ones
[17:04] <darkmatter> but I _never_ thought I'd like a freetard video driver. lol
[17:04] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, as I said , if nvidia would only opensource the drivers... their sales would increase
[17:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  freetard  drivers
[17:06] <darkmatter> coz_: exactly. nouveau breathed new life into this card on linux. nvidia's drivers are more feature rich, but don't take full advantage of their chipses. open sourcing and combining efforts .... oh boy
[17:06] <darkmatter> dream come true
[17:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, maybe nvidia will see the benefits  financially if they opensource
[17:07] <darkmatter> coz_: or if they don't opensource, at least hire the nouveau devs :P
[17:08] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah , well  I dont know if the nouveau people would do that,,  would be interesting
[17:08] <darkmatter> coz_: thus the ":P"
[17:08] <coz_> :)
[17:09] <darkmatter> I mean. it's just a driver. lol. if they wanna keep wraps on certain bits. they can have lgpl and link there "miniblob" against the opensource primary
[17:09] <darkmatter> that would work as well
[17:10] <darkmatter> their*
[17:10] <darkmatter> coz_: either/or. as long as they do _something_
[17:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure
[17:11] <darkmatter> as they say. there's more than one way to skin a cat
[17:12] <coz_> darkmatter,   ture but I like cats !! :)
[17:13] <darkmatter> coz_: "any" open source license would do, even if it was of there own defining. as long as it passes the test
[17:13] <coz_> darkmatter,  I ,, as usual ,, agree :)
[17:14] <darkmatter> I mean, even _MICROSOFT_ has _two_ of them. and there the kings of the closed :P
[17:14] <darkmatter> they're
[17:14] <darkmatter> lol. brain is shutting down. I hope I get tired soon xD
[17:15] <coz_> :)  see  arguements can lead to sleep :)
[17:19] <darkmatter> coz_: I forsee death of this crt in a few weeks. it's been at the "takes forever to warm up" stage for about two months. lol
[17:19] <darkmatter> thankfully I have numerable spares
[17:19] <darkmatter> I should really invest in an lcd
[17:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  that I understand,, I have had monitors die on me   I dont like that :)
[17:21] <darkmatter> coz_: the deaths here are usually quite dramatic *fizzle* *screen starts going concave at the sides. turns pinkish*..... shrink... *RREALLY LOUD POP*
[17:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo loud pops generally mean  capacitors
[17:22] <darkmatter> yup
[17:22] <darkmatter> occasionally flybacks too
[17:24] <darkmatter> coz_: one death was fault insulation. high pitched squeal. gotta love plasma arcs xD
[17:24] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[17:24] <coz_> darkmatter,   I have a few spare 15" crts here,, I would hate to have to use them
[17:24] <coz_> dual 15"  is NOT  nice
[17:25] <darkmatter> coz_: next on my list is my 19" compaq. its a patch job. works, but occasionally needs a gentle whap (tube squeals. lol)
[17:26] <darkmatter> but it works. just old and often repared
[17:26] <coz_> darkmatter,  got to love the "whaps"  hardware
[17:26] <darkmatter> keep it goi til it implodes
[17:27] <darkmatter> coz_: ah. yet another "experienced in the fine art of slapping technology" I see :)
[17:27] <coz_> for sure
[17:28] <coz_> ok  I have to break here,, family needs groceries,, be back in a while
[17:30] <mainerror> hello