/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/01/#ubuntu-manual.txt

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dan__.20:02
dan__hello?20:04
godbykHey, rickfosb.  Something I forgot to mention when you're testing your stripped down makefile is that you need to remove all the auxiliary files between each test.20:22
godbykrickfosb: I think "rm -f *.{aux,log,dvi,pdf,out,toc,glo,idx,bbl,blg}" will catch them all, but I might have missed a couple.20:22
rickfosbgodbyk -- probably did not do make clean; make  each time... haven't played with it for a day or so20:25
rickfosbis that enought? or do we need the rm20:25
godbykI'm worrking on fixing some bugs dealing with translations of the lucid-e2 branch and that thought just struck me.  Figured I'd best let you know before I forgot about it again. :)20:26
godbykI'm pretty confident that 'make clean' will rm all those files.20:26
godbykThe command I gave you is one I have aliased to 'texclean' on my system since I'm always fiddling with tex files.20:27
rickfosbno problem;  If we were to make changes to the makefile..., they would get a commit and push correct??20:27
godbykYep.20:27
rickfosbok, I'll copy that string20:27
rickfosbI'd want us to test the changes thoroughly   before we start changing the build process :)20:28
godbykYeah. At some point I'd broken the lucid-e2 Makefile. I don't recall if it was just on my system or if it was the repositories copy. It's been working okay for me lately, so I'll pretend it's all good. :-)20:30
rickfosbsmile20:30
rickfosbbeen there.  Broke a major makefile onetime using a non-vi text editor that repaced all the tabs....   I thought I was going to have to fire someone (myself included)  :))20:31
godbykheh.20:32
rickfosb(now I have a love hate relationship with backup/restore)20:32
godbykI really should have a more stringent (read: any sort of) backup policy.20:32
godbykAs it is, I end up just manually copying files about if I think they're important. Or relying on my source control systems for that.20:32
rickfosbI use a 16 gig memory stick, primarily to make a copy of my most important working files for 'work'... probably need to do a better job of saving files from the Natty box though.20:33
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: any chance adding the basic bzr commands (branch, pull, merge, commit, push) and best practices (backup) to Author/Editor pages on ubuntu-manual.org?20:36
rickfosbyea, i'll talk with c7p about that off line..  (sending myself a note)20:38
godbykI'd also like to add those to the style guide at some point.20:39
CrustyBarnaclecool!20:39
=== godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-April-Meeting2 | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
ChrisWoollardrickfosb. The Style Guide is a bzr project, so you could add that.20:40
rickfosbI'll pull that down.  thanks ChrisWoollard20:41
ChrisWoollardhttps://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-of-style20:41
rickfosbCrustyBarnacle: we do have a work in progress document for the bzr terminal commands: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LDAyOVGMOLvsMTef3dTE3zt9q-gQY_-NetMKfZ6yM2Q/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLynx-cH20:52
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: looks good20:55
rickfosbCrustyBarnacle:  Like a said a work in progress.  godbyk wrote the document; we could make it the source for a document on the manual site if needed.20:56
ChrisWoollardbrb20:57
* ChrisWoollard looks for a power cable20:57
* ChrisWoollard is back20:59
ChrisWoollardevening c7p21:02
hanniehi ChrisWoollard and c7p21:03
ChrisWoollardhello hannie21:04
hannieChrisWoollard, hoe gaat het ? Long time no see21:04
c7p1hello all, sorry for being late21:04
CrustyBarnacleHowdy21:05
godbykSomeone holler at me whenever we're ready to start.21:05
rickfosbgodbyk; go when you're ready21:05
ChrisWoollardIk ben goed21:05
godbyk'kay. Gimme just a sec.21:05
ChrisWoollardhow gaat het met jou?21:06
ChrisWoollards/how/hoe21:06
ChrisWoollard;)21:06
hannieChrisWoollard, fantastisch / fantastic (lots of work to do ;))21:06
godbykOkay, now that JasonO's here, we can get started. :-P21:08
godbyk#startmeeting21:08
MootBotMeeting started at 15:08. The chair is godbyk.21:08
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:08
godbyk[TOPIC] Screenshot resolution update21:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Screenshot resolution update21:08
godbykc7p1?21:08
JasonOHello everyone.21:08
c7p1yeah, actually this agenda item is from the previous meeting agenda21:09
godbykOh, the meeting agenda is at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-April-Meeting2 for anyone who wants to follow along.21:09
hannieHello JasonO21:09
godbykc7p1: We're off to a good start, then! :-)21:09
JasonOHi hannie21:09
godbykc7p1: Is there anything that needs to be discussed at this meeting about screenshot resolutions then?21:09
c7p1you had a conversation about the screenshot size, and there were some members of the team that wanted to check 800X600 resolutions vs the current21:10
rickfosbc7p1: Did we determine to leave the resolution 'as is' in the current manual?21:10
godbykAnother option might be to restrict the width of the screenshots to the main text block width (instead of the full page width).21:11
ChrisWoollardI believe current is 1024x76821:11
CrustyBarnaclegodbyk: Agreed21:12
rickfosbI took a look at a couple of images and I think either would work; so if restricting to main text block width is the way to go..., then no changes?21:13
* IlyaHaykinson waves21:13
c7p1i guess so, if there aren't any disagreements21:13
c7p1hey Ilya :)21:13
godbykI can build the maverick manual with screenshots thave a max width of the text block so we can see what it looks like.  I'll do that after the meeting and email a link (or add it to the minutes).21:14
godbykHey, Ilya.21:14
rickfosbgodbyk: thanks.21:14
CrustyBarnaclegodbyk: sounds great, thanks.21:14
godbykOkey doke.21:15
rickfosbmoving on?21:15
godbykAnything else to say on screenshot resolution/size?21:15
c7p1not from me21:15
godbyk[TOPIC] Maverick edition: What's left to do?21:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Maverick edition: What's left to do?21:15
godbykrickfosb?21:16
rickfosbThe next few were originally mine.  I wanted to try to wrap up 10.10 so that the translations teams can begin work.21:16
ChrisWoollardI am editting prefs-hardware at the moment ;)21:16
rickfosbSo, question is.   What's left to do so we can determine a 'freeze'..21:16
CrustyBarnacleAny editing left to do without owners?21:17
rickfosbAnd,  I'm working my way through the document, but you guys have a good handle on most of it.21:17
godbykI think at this point we're down to just some copy editing.21:18
hannierickfosb, do you know if there are translation teams that are going to translate maverick?21:18
rickfosbAgreed.21:18
godbykAnd copy editing could continue on forever, so we should probably just set a (reasonable) cut-off date.21:18
rickfosbI've gotten some unofficial requests21:18
ChrisWoollardShould we set a deadline?21:18
rickfosbChrisWoollard: I think we should draw a line in the sand and try for a cut off.21:19
rickfosbIs 30 days too soon?21:19
rickfosbor too much :)21:19
ChrisWoollardis sooner possible?21:19
ChrisWoollardi.e. 1 or 2 weeks?21:19
godbykHow does two weeks sound?21:19
rickfosbI'm ok with two weeks.21:20
IlyaHaykinsoni think the maverick version is pretty good now; i think two weeks is decent.21:20
godbykOkay. We'll set a string freeze date for 15 May, then.21:20
ChrisWoollardHow about just before the next meeting21:20
godbykAny objections?21:20
c7p1ChrisWoollard: +121:20
ChrisWoollardso it is frozen going into the meeting21:20
godbykI'll set it for 14 May, then in case our meeting lands on the Saturday.21:21
ChrisWoollard:)21:21
godbyk[ACTION] Maverick edition string freeze is 14 May.21:21
MootBotACTION received:  Maverick edition string freeze is 14 May.21:21
godbyk[TOPIC] Maverick edition: Should we leave Lucid edition credits or only include people that have worked on Maverick?21:22
MootBotNew Topic:  Maverick edition: Should we leave Lucid edition credits or only include people that have worked on Maverick?21:22
ChrisWoollardOk21:22
CrustyBarnacleMaverick content is mostly/all based on Lucid, yes?21:22
ChrisWoollardis was reviewing the credits. I wondered if you should only include people that have worked on maverick or eveybody21:22
ChrisWoollards/is/i21:23
rickfosbYou guys would know how much has changed from lucid..   I would add the folks who've worked and leave the Lucid folks in.21:23
ChrisWoollardI would say the authors section is the same21:23
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: Agreed21:23
ChrisWoollardbut translators / editors will be different21:23
godbykI think the bulk of the original authors' work has remained.21:23
godbykAnd I agree that the translators and editors may be different.21:24
ChrisWoollardAlso what about the top section.21:24
ChrisWoollardThat has had a few changes21:24
ChrisWoollardthe top section is the one with Lead Tex / Project Lead etc in it21:24
godbykFor the translators section, instead of listing all the translators from every language, I think we should list the translation editors and then list the individual translators in their translated edition.21:25
IlyaHaykinsonwhy not have a "Current edition" credits section, and a "All contributors" section?21:25
godbyk(Otherwise the translators list will be huge.)21:25
c7p1godbyk: +121:25
IlyaHaykinsonso anyone who ends up helping out in the current version goes in there, with the correct roles etc21:25
IlyaHaykinsonand otherwise, people drop and remain forever in the All contributors section21:25
CrustyBarnacleSounds good21:25
godbykOne question I have (that we'll have to address at some point) is when do people fall off the credits list (if ever)?21:26
rickfosbgood question21:26
IlyaHaykinsoni would say they don't, unless their content is definitely not used any longer21:26
rickfosbSignificant rewrite I would say21:26
IlyaHaykinsonwhich is hard to prove21:26
rickfosbyes21:26
ChrisWoollardThat is difficult as we don't know what each has done21:26
IlyaHaykinsonso make the font smaller, if we run out of room, or add a page, etc21:26
IlyaHaykinsonoh. i say just list everyone in the past as a "contributor", without a role.21:27
rickfosb(The credits will start to look like the opening scene of Star Wars)  :-)21:27
c7p1we can have two credit sections something like: Previous contributors ... Current Manual Main Contributors21:27
godbykrickfosb: Or the closing credits of Star Wars!21:27
rickfosb(both!  hah)21:27
hanniethe All contributors section will be huge21:27
ChrisWoollardMore like the credits of a pixar film21:27
c7p1lol21:28
rickfosbsorry i mentioned it :-)21:28
ChrisWoollardSo, can somebody summerise what we plan is?21:28
rickfosbWhat about a two year rolling window... stay in for two years and then move to the 'all' list?  or is that difficult to maintain21:28
godbykSo we want to have the current contributors at the top (with roles/titles) and the past contributors below (names only)?  And we'll list the individual translators in their translated edition only.  Translation editors can be listed in the English edition, though, I think.21:29
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: So, does anyone ever fall off?21:29
rickfosb(four years,,, without further contribuitions, you could fall off)21:29
rickfosb?21:29
c7p1since we use Creative Commons Attribution–Share Alike License we can't remove previous authors. We can do so only if there is no material that they wrote right ?21:29
hannieWho is responsible for the Contributors pages?21:30
c7p1godbyk: sound good21:30
godbykc7p1: Right.21:30
godbykhannie: Whoever we can sucker into maintaining it. :)21:30
godbykhannie: Ostensibly, that's one of the responsibilities that rickfosb holds as editor in chief.21:30
ChrisWoollardNo idea. I was looking at it, hence why i brought it up21:30
hannieit 'll be quite a job21:30
godbykBut we'll have to help out right now as there's some history we have to take care of.21:31
rickfosbOK; I didn't assign it... was afraid toooooooo21:31
ChrisWoollardlol21:31
c7p1hopefully we have the doc with all authors and editors so the contributors page will be a matter of copy n paste :)21:31
rickfosbI'll take it on.  And we'll figure out a format for keeping the license happy21:31
ChrisWoollardI will make some changes to it21:31
ChrisWoollardthen we can review21:31
godbykI'm happy to reformat the credits, too.21:32
rickfosb(Thanks.,  I don't have the 'history')21:32
godbykWe don't have to keep the same formatting (with the section headings, contributor roles, etc.)21:32
ChrisWoollardDoes that mean Rock, Paper ,Scissors21:32
godbykChrisWoollard: I'll let you dive into it.  You can holler at me if you want help with formatting/layout.21:32
rickfosblizard, Spock21:32
ChrisWoollardok21:32
rickfosbWill do.21:32
godbykGoing forward, we should try to be a bit better about tracking contributions.21:33
c7p1agreed21:33
ChrisWoollardI also feel like listing the contributors alphabeticllly21:33
rickfosbI'm sorting my email that way at the moment.... just so I can remind myself who asked for what.21:33
rickfosbChrisWoolard: agree with Alpah21:33
godbykChrisWoollard: I think I had them listed alphabetically at one point (excluding the leader roles).21:33
rickfosb*Alpha21:34
godbykThat ordering may have been mangled as more names were added, though.21:34
ChrisWoollardgodbyk, i have a script that gets a list of contributors from bzr21:34
hannieChrisWoollard, you mean alphabetic order within the sections?21:34
godbykChrisWoollard: That's a good start.  Though we have had some authors and editors in the past who didn't commit directly to bzr.21:34
ChrisWoollardComitters at least21:34
ChrisWoollardhannie, yes21:34
godbykThey'd submit their work to the chapter editor and let the editor deal with it.21:34
rickfosbScript?!?!  its a SCORECARD :-)21:34
godbykrickfosb: Ha!  So far, ChrisWoollard is winning.  We'll have to fix that!21:35
ChrisWoollardTrue, but it wasn't planning on indicating the scores, hense alphabetiacal21:35
rickfosbfrom now on, I fix one word at a time21:35
rickfosb(kidding)21:35
godbykheh21:35
godbykOkay, anything else we need to talk about wrt credits?21:35
ChrisWoollardthat was just luck. i only found out how to do that last week21:36
ChrisWoollardnope21:36
rickfosbI'm done21:36
godbyk'kay.21:36
godbyk[TOPIC] Natty edition: Chapter assignments21:36
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty edition: Chapter assignments21:36
godbykrickfosb?21:36
rickfosbI've made assignments; Usually following up with an email to the folks involved.  They are on the Authors and Editors pages.  Do we need discussion?21:37
rickfosbAssume, we'll probably break big chapters up as needed.21:37
rickfosbhere:https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydERxaWhGTkU2NTVDU2pxYXNHWWR1MlE&hl=en#gid=021:37
godbykrickfosb: Do we need more authors/editors for any chapters?21:38
godbykOr do we have good coverage?21:38
IlyaHaykinsonin Lucid days, we had something like 80% of assigned people not contribute or contribute very minimally21:39
rickfosbNot having prior experience in the manual; I'm pressed to say.  I suspect its the desktop sections that will need the most Authoring.21:39
rickfosb(Suspected that as well)21:39
IlyaHaykinsonpossibly because we didn't make the responsibility stick21:39
IlyaHaykinsonso people felt ok not checking in21:39
IlyaHaykinson(including chapter editors)21:39
IlyaHaykinsonwhich created a dilemma -- do we encourage the people to contribute (give them more time and chances), or yank the responsibility away and reassign21:40
godbykWould it be helpful to request/require regular status updates?21:40
rickfosbIf we put a tentative time line out there today, then I will begin an email campaign...  gently21:40
rickfosbI'll be talking with each; if someone drops out, I should know early enough21:40
godbykI wonder if it'd be useful to show some sort of graphical visualization that indicated which chapters were actively being worked on in the past (say) week.21:40
IlyaHaykinsongodbyk: probably regular status updates could help. but perhaps more importantly, we need to clearly outline what happens if they don't contribute21:41
IlyaHaykinsonso that there are no surprises21:41
rickfosbgodbyk: that would be a great graphic!!! from bzr stats?21:41
IlyaHaykinsonso like, if the chapter isn't making progress and we don't get a status update, we'll consider an author/editor no longer active and find someone else21:41
IlyaHaykinsoni also had a LOT of authors last time who refused/couldn't learn bzr21:41
CrustyBarnacleAgreed21:41
godbykrickfosb: Yeah. I'm not sure if something like that exists or not, but it'd be interesting to see.21:42
IlyaHaykinsonso i told them to contribute by text file emailed to me21:42
IlyaHaykinsoneven that didn't really work21:42
rickfosbI'd make that call at some point (no longer active) but its volunteer;  i'll give them as much rope as I can afford.21:42
CrustyBarnacleIlyaHaykinson: sounds painful21:42
hannieI like the idea of a graphical status overview21:42
godbykWe could also offer some bzr training (and latex training, etc.) if authors and editors are interested.21:42
IlyaHaykinsonrickfosb: nod, i think if you're actively keeping an eye on each section's progress, we'll be ok.21:42
rickfosbso, to the next bullet: how long does this 'normally' take21:43
IlyaHaykinsonit depends on how much needs to get written, right?21:43
IlyaHaykinsonAround the Desktop will get completely gutted and redone21:44
IlyaHaykinsona few apps changed21:44
rickfosball: this is a release that's getting a lot of press (some bad).  I'd like to have a manual out there sooner rather than later.21:44
IlyaHaykinsonbut probably 80% of the manual is still as-is21:44
rickfosb80% agreed as is21:44
rickfosbSo we freeze 10.10.. and push hard on the 20% of 11.0421:44
IlyaHaykinsonmy gut feeling for timeline is 10 weeks for active copywriting21:44
godbykrickfosb: Interestingly, the docs team is in the same boat as us.  They're scrambling to get content written, too.21:45
IlyaHaykinsonthen 2-3 weeks for copyedit/screenshots21:45
rickfosb90 days minimum - 120 max...21:45
rickfosb?21:46
rickfosbI'm going to need a longer whip.  ;-)21:46
CrustyBarnacleCan we set a review (alpha?) about 6-8wks out to gauge the progress?21:46
hannieHow many authors are present at the moment?21:47
IlyaHaykinsonyeah, it helped a lot, i think, to have milestones last time21:47
c7p1we may let authors to tell their opinion21:47
CrustyBarnacleauthor/editor21:47
godbykI think the milestones were helpful as it forced everyone to come together for a soft deadline so we could assess our progress.21:47
rickfosbThe two that have specifically asked for Desktop are Chen Lang and Dan Pullan... don't see them here?21:48
godbyk[TOPIC] Natty edition: Timeline21:49
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty edition: Timeline21:49
rickfosbI'll reach out to them tonight and ask for an initial content soft target(alpha)  of 4 to 6 weeks and see if they freak21:49
* godbyk isn't keeping up with the topics. MootBot will be angry!21:49
IlyaHaykinsoni recommend something like: M1 -- lock down what needs to change, M2 -- all sections are in, at least with stub content, M3 -- copywriting down, M4 -- content freeze (copyediting / screenshots done), M5 -- release (final bug testing done)21:49
godbykThat'll allow translations to commence at M4.21:50
rickfosbIlyaHaykinson: I like that.21:50
IlyaHaykinsoni would decouple M5 from translation release21:50
IlyaHaykinsontranslations can commence at M4, but if they want to minimize change, they could wait for M521:50
IlyaHaykinsonlast time we had a lot of angry translators21:51
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Right. Translations are asynchronous with the English edition release cycle.21:51
rickfosbI've told some to standby until we get the branch built.  that's M0?21:51
c7p1IlyaHaykinson: yeah the bug tracking/fixing is a problem for translations, so M5 for translations21:51
godbykThat's true.21:51
IlyaHaykinsonwe could also switch to a better translation tool21:51
IlyaHaykinsonthere was that open source one... poodle?21:51
IlyaHaykinsonor soemthing21:52
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Any suggestions?  I don't know enough about our options, but our current tools are not so great.21:52
IlyaHaykinsonpootle21:52
godbykI think Poodle's roughly equivalent to Launchpad/Rosetta.21:52
godbykI'm not sure if it can handle our long strings any better.21:52
hannieMay I ask what "M" means?21:52
godbykhannie: M = Milestone.21:53
godbykhannie: M1 = first milestone, M2 = second milestone, etc.21:53
hanniegodbyk, thanks21:53
godbykDid we settle the timeline questions, then?21:54
rickfosbI have some milestone identified; I have the first alpha at 4 to 6 or 8 weeks.. I'll get that posted and begin working with content authors/ editors21:54
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: M5  then is 90-120 days out from M0?21:55
IlyaHaykinsoni would propose M0 = right after maverick release21:55
godbykCrustyBarnacle: Yeah.21:55
IlyaHaykinsonM1 = 1 week21:55
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Agreed.21:55
rickfosbCrustyBarnacle: I hate time frame, but yes21:55
IlyaHaykinsonM2 = week 521:55
IlyaHaykinsonM3 = week 1021:55
IlyaHaykinsonM4 = week 1321:56
IlyaHaykinsonM5 = week 1521:56
godbykI'll base the natty branch on the maverick branch. So I'd like to wait until maverick is as finalized as possible (so we don't have to port bug fixes from maverick to natty).21:56
rickfosbYes; M0 should be after the freeze and that was when?21:56
rickfosbscrolling....21:56
godbykrickfosb: We can always shorten the time frame if the content gets written more quickly. :)21:56
godbykrickfosb: Maverick string freeze is 14 May.21:57
rickfosbRight! 14 May21:57
CrustyBarnacleaction on that?21:57
rickfosbM0 no later than 21 May21:57
hannieIs there a lot of difference between Lucid and Maverick?21:58
godbykhannie: Not too much.21:58
ChrisWoollardThe installation chapter was re-written21:58
ChrisWoollardPlus shotwell was added21:58
rickfosbQuestion:  Is Natty still too big for CD or was that fixed?21:59
godbykChrisWoollard: Might be handy to look at the maverick bzr logs and note which chapters changed the most from lucid-e2.  Could be helpful to the translators.21:59
ChrisWoollardIts predecessor was removed. Whatever that was21:59
c7p1actually authors can start working from now, natty is out. They can start writing content and when branch is up they can go on working with branches and other authors, right ?21:59
rickfosb(Installation section)21:59
rickfosbc7p1: agree, I'll suggest that to the desktop team22:00
hannieWe can use podiff22:00
IlyaHaykinsonChrisWoollard: this only works for totally new sections.22:00
godbykhannie: We can certainly give it a shot. I've never tried podiff.22:00
IlyaHaykinsoner, c7p122:00
godbykMoving right along...22:02
godbyk[TOPIC] E-book formats22:02
MootBotNew Topic:  E-book formats22:02
godbykWe've had a few requests for alternative formats.22:02
ChrisWoollardWho was trying to get a Kindle version?22:02
godbykThese formats include web-based (HTML), a more accessible PDF, Kindle, Nook, and other e-book reader formats.22:02
godbykChrisWoollard: I've had 2-3 people ask about a Kindle edition.22:03
hannieHas there ever been a survey on the use of certain formats?22:03
IlyaHaykinsonwhy doesn't the current PDF work on the kindle?22:04
IlyaHaykinsoni guess i can go check it out...22:04
godbykFor the non-PDF formats, our best bet would be to use a different source format (such as Docbook) that allows conversion to multiple output formats.22:04
ChrisWoollardNo idea, i don't have a kindle22:04
godbykFor the PDF formats, I can design the book to fit onto different screen sizes.22:04
rickfosbAt the risk of being shunned..., ipad release22:04
ChrisWoollardKindle can open .mobi22:04
CrustyBarnacleIlyaHaykinson: thought I'd heard it was badly formatted (flow?) on the kindle.22:04
IlyaHaykinsonok, let me go test it22:05
rickfosbI can read pdf on the ipad;  seems clean.22:05
godbykI *think* the Kindle tries to scale the entire PDF page to the screen, which makes the text too small to be readable.22:05
godbykBut I haven't tried it myself.22:05
rickfosbgodbyk: the request came from someone who was considering tinkering with the build?22:06
godbykrickfosb: I think the person who had suggested the tex4ht build option was different from the requester.22:06
rickfosbgodbyk: All: sorry, i'm behind your comments... disregard22:06
godbykrickfosb: Ah, 'kay. :)22:06
c7p1hm https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02556.html22:07
rickfosbAction?22:08
godbykc7p1: The 'Simple Guide' he refers to uses OpenOffice.org as the source format.22:08
ChrisWoollardSo..... That was what i was going to say22:08
ChrisWoollardAre we going to look at other versions for natty or natty+122:08
ChrisWoollardi.e epub / mobi etc22:09
godbykI'd really like to look at other formats, yeah.22:09
rickfosbMy view would be that IF we could make it transparent to our Author/Editor teams... then I'm ok.22:09
godbykI think that ultimately, we'll have to switch source formats, though. So that'll probably be something to hold off on until natty+1.22:09
c7p1yes but on the last mail he says that he will research the whole thing (learn to use Latex etc)22:09
rickfosbEspecially if we can tweak our build so that it builds the new formats when requested22:09
CrustyBarnacleaction to push out to natty+1?22:10
rickfosbOtherwise, I would suggest that we look at other formats for LTS releases?22:10
godbykrickfosb: Well, we'd probably be switching the source format and that would affect the authors/editors.  The build aspect would be transparent, though (aside from ensuring that the proper tools have been installed).22:10
IlyaHaykinsoni think that any format change is probably too late to do now.22:11
IlyaHaykinsonunless we think we can make the change in 3 weeks.22:11
rickfosbIlyaHaykinson: agree22:11
IlyaHaykinsonotherwise, we risk having a serious delay on the natty manual as we fight with the new tools.22:11
c7p1+ the documentation that is needed for authors/editors22:11
ChrisWoollardhence why we said natty+122:12
godbykIlyaHaykinson: I agree.  I think we should hold off on the format change until natty+1 so we have time to work out the issues and ensure a smooth transition.22:12
ChrisWoollardnatty+1 = oneric ocelot22:12
godbykHaving said all that, if I can generate a PDF that's more friendly to e-book readers and tablets, I'm willing to give that a try for natty.22:13
rickfosband I thought narwhal was going to be difficult :))22:13
godbykrickfosb: If you had any idea of the sorts of blue-sky plans we have... ;-)22:13
rickfosbI'm thinking we put it out on the ibooks store... that's blue sky.... ha22:14
godbykAnother format request I had was for a large-print edition.  (I think this request was from someone on the Lithuanian translation team.)22:14
godbykAnd that's something I'm willing to tackle.22:15
c7p1that's the guru22:15
rickfosbWhat constitutes large format?  Font size? Font Type? something else?22:15
godbykrickfosb: Font size mostly.22:15
rickfosbkay22:15
godbykThe page layout will need to be adjusted a bit, too.22:16
godbyk[TOPIC] Natty edition: Prologue introduction section22:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty edition: Prologue introduction section22:16
godbykThis topic was proposed by piratemurray.22:16
rickfosbI read his request;  I also read the prologue this week.  Not sure what would need to be added??22:16
godbykHe asks: How much of a rewrite do you want? Was thinking it is pretty good as is and will update for new happenings in Natty only. Thoughts on this?22:16
ChrisWoollardI am fairly sure this chapter was editted a long time ago22:16
rickfosbChrisWoolard: agree, could not find any copy edits.22:17
ChrisWoollardI am also fairly sure it was me that did it ;)22:17
IlyaHaykinsonok, just tested on my kindle22:17
IlyaHaykinsonthe document looks good, but it certainly isn't optimal in terms of font size22:17
IlyaHaykinsoneverything is readable with good eyesight, including margins22:17
IlyaHaykinsonand you can zoom22:17
IlyaHaykinsonbut that's not the normal kindle experience where you can easily control font sizing22:18
IlyaHaykinsonstill, we could fix this by increasing the font size a lot (2-3 times the current point size)22:18
rickfosbDo the margins need to stay?  It's a lot of real estate to pay homage to the 'print' world?  Just asking?22:18
godbykIlyaHaykinson: I've got a couple articles about using LaTeX to generate Kindle PDFs. I may play with it a bit and send you some PDFs to test out.22:18
ChrisWoollardhttp://kindleformatting.com/22:19
MootBotLINK received:  http://kindleformatting.com/22:19
IlyaHaykinsonrickfosb: good point. the margins could become in-line boxes or something22:19
godbykrickfosb: For the e-book versions, we could certainly reduce the margins.22:19
godbykChrisWoollard: Thanks.22:19
godbykIs there anything else to say in regards to the prologue?22:19
rickfosbInline box might be worth looking into22:19
rickfosbNone here.22:19
godbykOkay.22:19
c7p1yeah22:19
godbykrickfosb: Did we cover all your Natty milestone questions already?22:20
rickfosbI'll take an Action item to discuss with the pirate22:20
rickfosbYes on Milestones22:20
godbyk[TOPIC] Natty quick reference22:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty quick reference22:20
godbykhannie?22:20
hannieI was just wondering if we can add such a list to the manual22:20
hanniea lot of things have moved to another place22:21
hannieMaybe we can list the old location and the new one on one page22:21
godbykIs this 'transition guide' something that you think should exist in the manual or as a separate document?22:21
hannieIn the manual22:22
godbykGenerally, I think our manual's target audience is for people who are new to Ubuntu.  I wouldn't want to confuse people by references old releases of Ubuntu if we can avoid it.22:22
godbykWhat does everyone else think?22:22
IlyaHaykinsonfyi -- here's our manual on the kindle: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Public/IMG_20110501_141808.jpg?w=2c7ed2c722:23
ChrisWoollardAren't quick reference guides usually seperate documents?22:23
rickfosbI'm open to a Quick Reference page.  We'd need to determine what needs to be there.22:23
IlyaHaykinsonbetter link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4018722/IMG_20110501_141808.jpg22:23
hannieI do not see why you could not make it part of the manual22:23
IlyaHaykinsoni think the quick reference page would be great22:23
hannieBut if there is no need for it, ok. It was just a suggestion22:24
IlyaHaykinsongiven the "shortcuts" wallpaper recently featured all over, i think people clearly want one22:24
ChrisWoollardSounds more like an appendix to me22:24
hannieChrisWoollard, I would see it as another "chapter"22:25
hannieor Index22:25
hannieor appendix if you want22:25
c7p1people can look for the info that they are looking for on the proper Chapter, for example for the Unity they can check the "Ubuntu Desktop" chapter22:25
hanniebut the point is, should we, or shouldn't we add it to the manual22:25
rickfosbyea, see the desktop section says it all;  how to use ubuntu, where to get files, how to search... the new one will have to reference the dashboard...22:26
hanniebut then you do not have a quick overview22:26
rickfosbSo,...  while i'm open to a quick reference... i'm thinking an addendum?22:27
hannieyes, addendum, appendix, whatever22:27
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: +122:27
rickfosbWe used to get cardboard help sheets for everything from Excel to Unix... maybe a page of those hints?22:27
rickfosbThe most often needed 'clicks'22:28
hanniethat's the idea22:28
rickfosbA sort of wheres my 'cheese' for natty22:28
ChrisWoollardcheese is in the repo22:28
rickfosbgodbyk:  I'm thinking we get a page that could be http ready and include as a reference in the back?22:29
godbykrickfosb: We could do that, yeah.22:29
rickfosbHannie: do you want the role?22:29
godbykThere are also existing 'introduction to unity' guides that have been recently posted online.22:29
hannierickfosb, I want to try22:30
rickfosbComes under the heading; be careful what you ask for... :))22:30
ChrisWoollardjcastro wrote it i think?22:30
godbykLike this, for example: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/natty/22:30
rickfosbyea, I'm thinking there are a couple out there... Benjamin had one too?22:30
godbykAnd another couple that were blog entries.22:30
ChrisWoollardhttp://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity22:30
MootBotLINK received:  http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity22:30
hannierickfosb, let me do some research and I will send it to you, ok?22:31
rickfosbyep;  Assuming we don't step on toes.22:31
JasonOrickfosb that is Benjamin's.22:31
ChrisWoollardbut that is for powere users ;)22:31
rickfosbhannie: perfect!22:31
godbykI think there was a link or two posted to the Ubuntu Docs mailing list recently, too.22:31
godbykLet me see if I can scare those up real quick.22:32
ChrisWoollardscare?22:32
rickfosbJosno0: thought so;  he was even working out the Copy issues.22:32
rickfosb*Jason022:32
ChrisWoollardIf is currently licensed as a CC Sharealike 2.522:32
c7p1godbyk:  this http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/natty/  ?22:33
godbykc7p1: I think that was one of 'em, yeah.22:33
godbykI'm not seeing the email. Maybe I imagined it. :)22:34
JasonOWhat happened?22:34
godbykSo the questions I have are:22:34
godbyk1. Do we want to write our own quick reference guide or just point to an existing one?22:34
JasonOrickfosb Working on what?22:34
godbyk2. If we write our own, should it be part of the manual or a separate document?22:35
rickfosbJason0; copyright language in the post... to insure all could reprint... as is22:35
rickfosbJason0: seems like i have an email string on it somewhere.22:36
rickfosb1. take what's available, 2. addendum22:36
c7p11) i don't see the need of this section since the "Contents" section of the manual has a list with all the subjects that are covered on every chapter 2) if we decide to create one i think it's better to keep it on a separate doc or online22:36
CrustyBarnacle222:37
rickfosbc7p1: I certainly want it on line22:38
rickfosb(and assuming we have to 'print' at some point, we may elect to keep it out of the print version)22:38
rickfosbone whole minute22:39
godbykI think that covers all the topics we had in the agenda.  Is there anything else anyone would like to bring up?22:40
ChrisWoollardAre we getting anywhere? THis meeting is now 1 hour 4 mins22:40
ChrisWoollard4022:40
godbyk[TOPIC] Any other business22:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business22:40
ChrisWoollardHow long should this meeting be?22:40
ChrisWoollard:P22:41
rickfosbSorry folks I put a long agenda together, but got my questions answered!22:41
hannieI had a meeting previous to this one which lasted 1 hour ;)22:41
godbykOur meetings usually run fairly long. :)22:41
godbykOkay, well, if there's nothing else pressing:22:41
godbyk#endmeeting22:41
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:41.22:41
rickfosbThanks godbyk; job well done22:42
godbykOf course, you're all welcome to hang around and continue discussing things.22:42
ChrisWoollardThanks everybody22:42
hannieSee you all, bye22:42
CrustyBarnacleLaters22:42
rickfosbQuestion for anyone; CD vs USB install... is Natty small enough to load via CD22:42
rickfosbI've been doing USB install for some time now.. and began to add text to the manual ...22:43
Teotwthere are ubuntu natty cd's so im guessing so ?22:43
IlyaHaykinsonCDs... those are those shiny plastic things that people used to use for coasters, right?22:43
rickfosbOK; I recall that at one time, the image was too large22:43
c7p1thank you all for coming :) good job godbyk22:43
Teotwi think it's ok now, afaik22:43
rickfosbThey also make good throwing stars....22:43
JasonOrickfosb I might want to be a writer. I will let you know.22:43
JasonOJUst need Latex if that's what it's called?22:44
rickfosbJason0: great email to rickfosb@gmail.com or to the 'list' and i'll pick it up.22:44
JasonOAlright.22:44
Teotwrickfosb: nattys not in the canonical shop, so...perhaps it's not. Idk if it's an indicator or not22:44
IlyaHaykinsonok folks, gonna go. bye22:45
godbykI think they should switch to DVD images instead, but I have cheap, plentiful bandwidth. <shrug>22:45
ChrisWoollardbye22:45
rickfosbOK; thinking we might need to rethink the install if teh live CD is really only a Live USB or DVD22:45
rickfosbThanks all!22:45
Teotwliveusb is faster so people would benefit more from that..22:45
c7p1ChrisWoollard: bye :)22:46
rickfosball:  bye22:46
godbykrickfosb: Their download page <http://www.ubuntu.com/download> says "CD".22:46
godbykfor what it's worth.22:46
rickfosbgodbyk: got cha22:46
Teotwso, did i miss the whole author assignment deal?22:47
JasonOc7p1 Any adverts needed?22:47
godbykJasonO: I can't think of any yet, but we'll have some in a few weeks.22:49
JasonOgodbyk Thanks.22:49
godbykWe have a string freeze on the maverick edition on 14 May, so we'll be releasing it soon after that.22:49
godbykThen we'll be frantically working on the natty edition.22:49
c7p1JasonO: yes there aren't any, although it might be good if you could learn to use gimp or any other image manipulator program or even a video producer22:50
JasonOc7p1 I know how to use Gimp.22:51
c7p1neat then :)22:51
JasonOAnd Istanbul.22:51
c7p1bye all :)22:52
godbykG'bye, c7p1.22:52
j1mcreading back through some of this conversation, if you are looking for great pdf output, there's nothing better than LaTeX.22:52
j1mcunless you want to spend $1000 on Framemaker22:53
JasonOBy c7p122:53
JasonO*BYe22:53
j1mci know LaTeX is kind of a pain, though22:53
JasonO*bye22:53
godbykj1mc: For generating PDFs, I'd probably stick with LaTeX.22:54
godbykThe issue we were discussing was how to generate other (non-PDF) formats.  LaTeX isn't very good for that.22:54
j1mcah, ok22:54
j1mcgodbyk: are you familiar with pandoc?22:55
godbykSo we'll probably want to switch to a different source format so we can get different output formats (like HTML, epub, etc.).22:55
godbykI'd still probably route it through LaTeX to generate PDFs, though.22:55
godbykj1mc: A bit.22:55
godbykUnfortunately, it doesn't truly understand LaTeX.  It only has a superficial understanding of it.22:55
godbykAnd we're doing some non-standard things, so pandoc chokes on our .tex files.22:56
j1mcyeah, it is more to output to pdf via latex, not really to import from it22:56
godbykj1mc: Have you been using Mallard much yet?22:56
j1mcyes, for the 11.04 help22:57
j1mcthere is no pdf or epub output for it now, though.22:57
godbykFrom earlier discussions with Shaun and the Ubuntu Docs team, I got the impression that Mallard was probably not the way to go for a linear book and that Docbook would be better.22:57
j1mcjust on-disk (rendered by yelp) and html22:57
godbykDoes this jive with what you know of Mallard?22:57
j1mcyes... you can kind of bend it to work well with a book, but it's not what it is designed for.22:58
godbykWell, if it's XML I could probably transform it to TeX relatively easily (with XSLT or a script).22:58
j1mcyes, perhaps.  i'm sure Shaun would appreciate anyone who could look into that.22:58
godbykMallard sounds great for topic-based help.22:58
j1mci need to step out22:58
j1mctake it easy, godbyk22:59
godbykI've just been poking around to see what other formats are in use that could be easily translated to HTML, epub, TeX, etc.22:59
godbykj1mc: 'kay. See you later!22:59

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