[20:02] <dan__> .
[20:04] <dan__> hello?
[20:22] <godbyk> Hey, rickfosb.  Something I forgot to mention when you're testing your stripped down makefile is that you need to remove all the auxiliary files between each test.
[20:22] <godbyk> rickfosb: I think "rm -f *.{aux,log,dvi,pdf,out,toc,glo,idx,bbl,blg}" will catch them all, but I might have missed a couple.
[20:25] <rickfosb> godbyk -- probably did not do make clean; make  each time... haven't played with it for a day or so
[20:25] <rickfosb> is that enought? or do we need the rm
[20:26] <godbyk> I'm worrking on fixing some bugs dealing with translations of the lucid-e2 branch and that thought just struck me.  Figured I'd best let you know before I forgot about it again. :)
[20:26] <godbyk> I'm pretty confident that 'make clean' will rm all those files.
[20:27] <godbyk> The command I gave you is one I have aliased to 'texclean' on my system since I'm always fiddling with tex files.
[20:27] <rickfosb> no problem;  If we were to make changes to the makefile..., they would get a commit and push correct??
[20:27] <godbyk> Yep.
[20:27] <rickfosb> ok, I'll copy that string
[20:28] <rickfosb> I'd want us to test the changes thoroughly   before we start changing the build process :)
[20:30] <godbyk> Yeah. At some point I'd broken the lucid-e2 Makefile. I don't recall if it was just on my system or if it was the repositories copy. It's been working okay for me lately, so I'll pretend it's all good. :-)
[20:30] <rickfosb> smile
[20:31] <rickfosb> been there.  Broke a major makefile onetime using a non-vi text editor that repaced all the tabs....   I thought I was going to have to fire someone (myself included)  :))
[20:32] <godbyk> heh.
[20:32] <rickfosb> (now I have a love hate relationship with backup/restore)
[20:32] <godbyk> I really should have a more stringent (read: any sort of) backup policy.
[20:32] <godbyk> As it is, I end up just manually copying files about if I think they're important. Or relying on my source control systems for that.
[20:33] <rickfosb> I use a 16 gig memory stick, primarily to make a copy of my most important working files for 'work'... probably need to do a better job of saving files from the Natty box though.
[20:36] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: any chance adding the basic bzr commands (branch, pull, merge, commit, push) and best practices (backup) to Author/Editor pages on ubuntu-manual.org?
[20:38] <rickfosb> yea, i'll talk with c7p about that off line..  (sending myself a note)
[20:39] <godbyk> I'd also like to add those to the style guide at some point.
[20:39] <CrustyBarnacle> cool!
[20:40] <ChrisWoollard> rickfosb. The Style Guide is a bzr project, so you could add that.
[20:41] <rickfosb> I'll pull that down.  thanks ChrisWoollard
[20:41] <ChrisWoollard> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-of-style
[20:52] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle: we do have a work in progress document for the bzr terminal commands: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LDAyOVGMOLvsMTef3dTE3zt9q-gQY_-NetMKfZ6yM2Q/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLynx-cH
[20:55] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: looks good
[20:56] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle:  Like a said a work in progress.  godbyk wrote the document; we could make it the source for a document on the manual site if needed.
[20:57] <ChrisWoollard> brb
[20:57]  * ChrisWoollard looks for a power cable
[20:59]  * ChrisWoollard is back
[21:02] <ChrisWoollard> evening c7p
[21:03] <hannie> hi ChrisWoollard and c7p
[21:04] <ChrisWoollard> hello hannie
[21:04] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, hoe gaat het ? Long time no see
[21:04] <c7p1> hello all, sorry for being late
[21:05] <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy
[21:05] <godbyk> Someone holler at me whenever we're ready to start.
[21:05] <rickfosb> godbyk; go when you're ready
[21:05] <ChrisWoollard> Ik ben goed
[21:05] <godbyk> 'kay. Gimme just a sec.
[21:06] <ChrisWoollard> how gaat het met jou?
[21:06] <ChrisWoollard> s/how/hoe
[21:06] <ChrisWoollard> ;)
[21:06] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, fantastisch / fantastic (lots of work to do ;))
[21:08] <godbyk> Okay, now that JasonO's here, we can get started. :-P
[21:08] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[21:08] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:08. The chair is godbyk.
[21:08] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:08] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Screenshot resolution update
[21:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Screenshot resolution update
[21:08] <godbyk> c7p1?
[21:08] <JasonO> Hello everyone.
[21:09] <c7p1> yeah, actually this agenda item is from the previous meeting agenda
[21:09] <godbyk> Oh, the meeting agenda is at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-April-Meeting2 for anyone who wants to follow along.
[21:09] <hannie> Hello JasonO
[21:09] <godbyk> c7p1: We're off to a good start, then! :-)
[21:09] <JasonO> Hi hannie
[21:09] <godbyk> c7p1: Is there anything that needs to be discussed at this meeting about screenshot resolutions then?
[21:10] <c7p1> you had a conversation about the screenshot size, and there were some members of the team that wanted to check 800X600 resolutions vs the current
[21:10] <rickfosb> c7p1: Did we determine to leave the resolution 'as is' in the current manual?
[21:11] <godbyk> Another option might be to restrict the width of the screenshots to the main text block width (instead of the full page width).
[21:11] <ChrisWoollard> I believe current is 1024x768
[21:12] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Agreed
[21:13] <rickfosb> I took a look at a couple of images and I think either would work; so if restricting to main text block width is the way to go..., then no changes?
[21:13]  * IlyaHaykinson waves
[21:13] <c7p1> i guess so, if there aren't any disagreements
[21:13] <c7p1> hey Ilya :)
[21:14] <godbyk> I can build the maverick manual with screenshots thave a max width of the text block so we can see what it looks like.  I'll do that after the meeting and email a link (or add it to the minutes).
[21:14] <godbyk> Hey, Ilya.
[21:14] <rickfosb> godbyk: thanks.
[21:14] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: sounds great, thanks.
[21:15] <godbyk> Okey doke.
[21:15] <rickfosb> moving on?
[21:15] <godbyk> Anything else to say on screenshot resolution/size?
[21:15] <c7p1> not from me
[21:15] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Maverick edition: What's left to do?
[21:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick edition: What's left to do?
[21:16] <godbyk> rickfosb?
[21:16] <rickfosb> The next few were originally mine.  I wanted to try to wrap up 10.10 so that the translations teams can begin work.
[21:16] <ChrisWoollard> I am editting prefs-hardware at the moment ;)
[21:16] <rickfosb> So, question is.   What's left to do so we can determine a 'freeze'..
[21:17] <CrustyBarnacle> Any editing left to do without owners?
[21:17] <rickfosb> And,  I'm working my way through the document, but you guys have a good handle on most of it.
[21:18] <godbyk> I think at this point we're down to just some copy editing.
[21:18] <hannie> rickfosb, do you know if there are translation teams that are going to translate maverick?
[21:18] <rickfosb> Agreed.
[21:18] <godbyk> And copy editing could continue on forever, so we should probably just set a (reasonable) cut-off date.
[21:18] <rickfosb> I've gotten some unofficial requests
[21:18] <ChrisWoollard> Should we set a deadline?
[21:19] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard: I think we should draw a line in the sand and try for a cut off.
[21:19] <rickfosb> Is 30 days too soon?
[21:19] <rickfosb> or too much :)
[21:19] <ChrisWoollard> is sooner possible?
[21:19] <ChrisWoollard> i.e. 1 or 2 weeks?
[21:19] <godbyk> How does two weeks sound?
[21:20] <rickfosb> I'm ok with two weeks.
[21:20] <IlyaHaykinson> i think the maverick version is pretty good now; i think two weeks is decent.
[21:20] <godbyk> Okay. We'll set a string freeze date for 15 May, then.
[21:20] <ChrisWoollard> How about just before the next meeting
[21:20] <godbyk> Any objections?
[21:20] <c7p1> ChrisWoollard: +1
[21:20] <ChrisWoollard> so it is frozen going into the meeting
[21:21] <godbyk> I'll set it for 14 May, then in case our meeting lands on the Saturday.
[21:21] <ChrisWoollard> :)
[21:21] <godbyk> [ACTION] Maverick edition string freeze is 14 May.
[21:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Maverick edition string freeze is 14 May.
[21:22] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Maverick edition: Should we leave Lucid edition credits or only include people that have worked on Maverick?
[21:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick edition: Should we leave Lucid edition credits or only include people that have worked on Maverick?
[21:22] <ChrisWoollard> Ok
[21:22] <CrustyBarnacle> Maverick content is mostly/all based on Lucid, yes?
[21:22] <ChrisWoollard> is was reviewing the credits. I wondered if you should only include people that have worked on maverick or eveybody
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> s/is/i
[21:23] <rickfosb> You guys would know how much has changed from lucid..   I would add the folks who've worked and leave the Lucid folks in.
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> I would say the authors section is the same
[21:23] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: Agreed
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> but translators / editors will be different
[21:23] <godbyk> I think the bulk of the original authors' work has remained.
[21:24] <godbyk> And I agree that the translators and editors may be different.
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard> Also what about the top section.
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard> That has had a few changes
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard> the top section is the one with Lead Tex / Project Lead etc in it
[21:25] <godbyk> For the translators section, instead of listing all the translators from every language, I think we should list the translation editors and then list the individual translators in their translated edition.
[21:25] <IlyaHaykinson> why not have a "Current edition" credits section, and a "All contributors" section?
[21:25] <godbyk> (Otherwise the translators list will be huge.)
[21:25] <c7p1> godbyk: +1
[21:25] <IlyaHaykinson> so anyone who ends up helping out in the current version goes in there, with the correct roles etc
[21:25] <IlyaHaykinson> and otherwise, people drop and remain forever in the All contributors section
[21:25] <CrustyBarnacle> Sounds good
[21:26] <godbyk> One question I have (that we'll have to address at some point) is when do people fall off the credits list (if ever)?
[21:26] <rickfosb> good question
[21:26] <IlyaHaykinson> i would say they don't, unless their content is definitely not used any longer
[21:26] <rickfosb> Significant rewrite I would say
[21:26] <IlyaHaykinson> which is hard to prove
[21:26] <rickfosb> yes
[21:26] <ChrisWoollard> That is difficult as we don't know what each has done
[21:26] <IlyaHaykinson> so make the font smaller, if we run out of room, or add a page, etc
[21:27] <IlyaHaykinson> oh. i say just list everyone in the past as a "contributor", without a role.
[21:27] <rickfosb> (The credits will start to look like the opening scene of Star Wars)  :-)
[21:27] <c7p1> we can have two credit sections something like: Previous contributors ... Current Manual Main Contributors
[21:27] <godbyk> rickfosb: Or the closing credits of Star Wars!
[21:27] <rickfosb> (both!  hah)
[21:27] <hannie> the All contributors section will be huge
[21:27] <ChrisWoollard> More like the credits of a pixar film
[21:28] <c7p1> lol
[21:28] <rickfosb> sorry i mentioned it :-)
[21:28] <ChrisWoollard> So, can somebody summerise what we plan is?
[21:28] <rickfosb> What about a two year rolling window... stay in for two years and then move to the 'all' list?  or is that difficult to maintain
[21:29] <godbyk> So we want to have the current contributors at the top (with roles/titles) and the past contributors below (names only)?  And we'll list the individual translators in their translated edition only.  Translation editors can be listed in the English edition, though, I think.
[21:29] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: So, does anyone ever fall off?
[21:29] <rickfosb> (four years,,, without further contribuitions, you could fall off)
[21:29] <rickfosb> ?
[21:29] <c7p1> since we use Creative Commons Attribution–Share Alike License we can't remove previous authors. We can do so only if there is no material that they wrote right ?
[21:30] <hannie> Who is responsible for the Contributors pages?
[21:30] <c7p1> godbyk: sound good
[21:30] <godbyk> c7p1: Right.
[21:30] <godbyk> hannie: Whoever we can sucker into maintaining it. :)
[21:30] <godbyk> hannie: Ostensibly, that's one of the responsibilities that rickfosb holds as editor in chief.
[21:30] <ChrisWoollard> No idea. I was looking at it, hence why i brought it up
[21:30] <hannie> it 'll be quite a job
[21:31] <godbyk> But we'll have to help out right now as there's some history we have to take care of.
[21:31] <rickfosb> OK; I didn't assign it... was afraid toooooooo
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> lol
[21:31] <c7p1> hopefully we have the doc with all authors and editors so the contributors page will be a matter of copy n paste :)
[21:31] <rickfosb> I'll take it on.  And we'll figure out a format for keeping the license happy
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> I will make some changes to it
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> then we can review
[21:32] <godbyk> I'm happy to reformat the credits, too.
[21:32] <rickfosb> (Thanks.,  I don't have the 'history')
[21:32] <godbyk> We don't have to keep the same formatting (with the section headings, contributor roles, etc.)
[21:32] <ChrisWoollard> Does that mean Rock, Paper ,Scissors
[21:32] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I'll let you dive into it.  You can holler at me if you want help with formatting/layout.
[21:32] <rickfosb> lizard, Spock
[21:32] <ChrisWoollard> ok
[21:32] <rickfosb> Will do.
[21:33] <godbyk> Going forward, we should try to be a bit better about tracking contributions.
[21:33] <c7p1> agreed
[21:33] <ChrisWoollard> I also feel like listing the contributors alphabeticllly
[21:33] <rickfosb> I'm sorting my email that way at the moment.... just so I can remind myself who asked for what.
[21:33] <rickfosb> ChrisWoolard: agree with Alpah
[21:33] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think I had them listed alphabetically at one point (excluding the leader roles).
[21:34] <rickfosb> *Alpha
[21:34] <godbyk> That ordering may have been mangled as more names were added, though.
[21:34] <ChrisWoollard> godbyk, i have a script that gets a list of contributors from bzr
[21:34] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, you mean alphabetic order within the sections?
[21:34] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: That's a good start.  Though we have had some authors and editors in the past who didn't commit directly to bzr.
[21:34] <ChrisWoollard> Comitters at least
[21:34] <ChrisWoollard> hannie, yes
[21:34] <godbyk> They'd submit their work to the chapter editor and let the editor deal with it.
[21:34] <rickfosb> Script?!?!  its a SCORECARD :-)
[21:35] <godbyk> rickfosb: Ha!  So far, ChrisWoollard is winning.  We'll have to fix that!
[21:35] <ChrisWoollard> True, but it wasn't planning on indicating the scores, hense alphabetiacal
[21:35] <rickfosb> from now on, I fix one word at a time
[21:35] <rickfosb> (kidding)
[21:35] <godbyk> heh
[21:35] <godbyk> Okay, anything else we need to talk about wrt credits?
[21:36] <ChrisWoollard> that was just luck. i only found out how to do that last week
[21:36] <ChrisWoollard> nope
[21:36] <rickfosb> I'm done
[21:36] <godbyk> 'kay.
[21:36] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition: Chapter assignments
[21:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition: Chapter assignments
[21:36] <godbyk> rickfosb?
[21:37] <rickfosb> I've made assignments; Usually following up with an email to the folks involved.  They are on the Authors and Editors pages.  Do we need discussion?
[21:37] <rickfosb> Assume, we'll probably break big chapters up as needed.
[21:37] <rickfosb> here:https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydERxaWhGTkU2NTVDU2pxYXNHWWR1MlE&hl=en#gid=0
[21:38] <godbyk> rickfosb: Do we need more authors/editors for any chapters?
[21:38] <godbyk> Or do we have good coverage?
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> in Lucid days, we had something like 80% of assigned people not contribute or contribute very minimally
[21:39] <rickfosb> Not having prior experience in the manual; I'm pressed to say.  I suspect its the desktop sections that will need the most Authoring.
[21:39] <rickfosb> (Suspected that as well)
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> possibly because we didn't make the responsibility stick
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> so people felt ok not checking in
[21:39] <IlyaHaykinson> (including chapter editors)
[21:40] <IlyaHaykinson> which created a dilemma -- do we encourage the people to contribute (give them more time and chances), or yank the responsibility away and reassign
[21:40] <godbyk> Would it be helpful to request/require regular status updates?
[21:40] <rickfosb> If we put a tentative time line out there today, then I will begin an email campaign...  gently
[21:40] <rickfosb> I'll be talking with each; if someone drops out, I should know early enough
[21:40] <godbyk> I wonder if it'd be useful to show some sort of graphical visualization that indicated which chapters were actively being worked on in the past (say) week.
[21:41] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: probably regular status updates could help. but perhaps more importantly, we need to clearly outline what happens if they don't contribute
[21:41] <IlyaHaykinson> so that there are no surprises
[21:41] <rickfosb> godbyk: that would be a great graphic!!! from bzr stats?
[21:41] <IlyaHaykinson> so like, if the chapter isn't making progress and we don't get a status update, we'll consider an author/editor no longer active and find someone else
[21:41] <IlyaHaykinson> i also had a LOT of authors last time who refused/couldn't learn bzr
[21:41] <CrustyBarnacle> Agreed
[21:42] <godbyk> rickfosb: Yeah. I'm not sure if something like that exists or not, but it'd be interesting to see.
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> so i told them to contribute by text file emailed to me
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> even that didn't really work
[21:42] <rickfosb> I'd make that call at some point (no longer active) but its volunteer;  i'll give them as much rope as I can afford.
[21:42] <CrustyBarnacle> IlyaHaykinson: sounds painful
[21:42] <hannie> I like the idea of a graphical status overview
[21:42] <godbyk> We could also offer some bzr training (and latex training, etc.) if authors and editors are interested.
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> rickfosb: nod, i think if you're actively keeping an eye on each section's progress, we'll be ok.
[21:43] <rickfosb> so, to the next bullet: how long does this 'normally' take
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> it depends on how much needs to get written, right?
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> Around the Desktop will get completely gutted and redone
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> a few apps changed
[21:44] <rickfosb> all: this is a release that's getting a lot of press (some bad).  I'd like to have a manual out there sooner rather than later.
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> but probably 80% of the manual is still as-is
[21:44] <rickfosb> 80% agreed as is
[21:44] <rickfosb> So we freeze 10.10.. and push hard on the 20% of 11.04
[21:44] <IlyaHaykinson> my gut feeling for timeline is 10 weeks for active copywriting
[21:45] <godbyk> rickfosb: Interestingly, the docs team is in the same boat as us.  They're scrambling to get content written, too.
[21:45] <IlyaHaykinson> then 2-3 weeks for copyedit/screenshots
[21:45] <rickfosb> 90 days minimum - 120 max...
[21:46] <rickfosb> ?
[21:46] <rickfosb> I'm going to need a longer whip.  ;-)
[21:46] <CrustyBarnacle> Can we set a review (alpha?) about 6-8wks out to gauge the progress?
[21:47] <hannie> How many authors are present at the moment?
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah, it helped a lot, i think, to have milestones last time
[21:47] <c7p1> we may let authors to tell their opinion
[21:47] <CrustyBarnacle> author/editor
[21:47] <godbyk> I think the milestones were helpful as it forced everyone to come together for a soft deadline so we could assess our progress.
[21:48] <rickfosb> The two that have specifically asked for Desktop are Chen Lang and Dan Pullan... don't see them here?
[21:49] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition: Timeline
[21:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition: Timeline
[21:49] <rickfosb> I'll reach out to them tonight and ask for an initial content soft target(alpha)  of 4 to 6 weeks and see if they freak
[21:49]  * godbyk isn't keeping up with the topics. MootBot will be angry!
[21:49] <IlyaHaykinson> i recommend something like: M1 -- lock down what needs to change, M2 -- all sections are in, at least with stub content, M3 -- copywriting down, M4 -- content freeze (copyediting / screenshots done), M5 -- release (final bug testing done)
[21:50] <godbyk> That'll allow translations to commence at M4.
[21:50] <rickfosb> IlyaHaykinson: I like that.
[21:50] <IlyaHaykinson> i would decouple M5 from translation release
[21:50] <IlyaHaykinson> translations can commence at M4, but if they want to minimize change, they could wait for M5
[21:51] <IlyaHaykinson> last time we had a lot of angry translators
[21:51] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Right. Translations are asynchronous with the English edition release cycle.
[21:51] <rickfosb> I've told some to standby until we get the branch built.  that's M0?
[21:51] <c7p1> IlyaHaykinson: yeah the bug tracking/fixing is a problem for translations, so M5 for translations
[21:51] <godbyk> That's true.
[21:51] <IlyaHaykinson> we could also switch to a better translation tool
[21:51] <IlyaHaykinson> there was that open source one... poodle?
[21:52] <IlyaHaykinson> or soemthing
[21:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Any suggestions?  I don't know enough about our options, but our current tools are not so great.
[21:52] <IlyaHaykinson> pootle
[21:52] <godbyk> I think Poodle's roughly equivalent to Launchpad/Rosetta.
[21:52] <godbyk> I'm not sure if it can handle our long strings any better.
[21:52] <hannie> May I ask what "M" means?
[21:53] <godbyk> hannie: M = Milestone.
[21:53] <godbyk> hannie: M1 = first milestone, M2 = second milestone, etc.
[21:53] <hannie> godbyk, thanks
[21:54] <godbyk> Did we settle the timeline questions, then?
[21:54] <rickfosb> I have some milestone identified; I have the first alpha at 4 to 6 or 8 weeks.. I'll get that posted and begin working with content authors/ editors
[21:55] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: M5  then is 90-120 days out from M0?
[21:55] <IlyaHaykinson> i would propose M0 = right after maverick release
[21:55] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yeah.
[21:55] <IlyaHaykinson> M1 = 1 week
[21:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Agreed.
[21:55] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle: I hate time frame, but yes
[21:55] <IlyaHaykinson> M2 = week 5
[21:55] <IlyaHaykinson> M3 = week 10
[21:56] <IlyaHaykinson> M4 = week 13
[21:56] <IlyaHaykinson> M5 = week 15
[21:56] <godbyk> I'll base the natty branch on the maverick branch. So I'd like to wait until maverick is as finalized as possible (so we don't have to port bug fixes from maverick to natty).
[21:56] <rickfosb> Yes; M0 should be after the freeze and that was when?
[21:56] <rickfosb> scrolling....
[21:56] <godbyk> rickfosb: We can always shorten the time frame if the content gets written more quickly. :)
[21:57] <godbyk> rickfosb: Maverick string freeze is 14 May.
[21:57] <rickfosb> Right! 14 May
[21:57] <CrustyBarnacle> action on that?
[21:57] <rickfosb> M0 no later than 21 May
[21:58] <hannie> Is there a lot of difference between Lucid and Maverick?
[21:58] <godbyk> hannie: Not too much.
[21:58] <ChrisWoollard> The installation chapter was re-written
[21:58] <ChrisWoollard> Plus shotwell was added
[21:59] <rickfosb> Question:  Is Natty still too big for CD or was that fixed?
[21:59] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Might be handy to look at the maverick bzr logs and note which chapters changed the most from lucid-e2.  Could be helpful to the translators.
[21:59] <ChrisWoollard> Its predecessor was removed. Whatever that was
[21:59] <c7p1> actually authors can start working from now, natty is out. They can start writing content and when branch is up they can go on working with branches and other authors, right ?
[21:59] <rickfosb> (Installation section)
[22:00] <rickfosb> c7p1: agree, I'll suggest that to the desktop team
[22:00] <hannie> We can use podiff
[22:00] <IlyaHaykinson> ChrisWoollard: this only works for totally new sections.
[22:00] <godbyk> hannie: We can certainly give it a shot. I've never tried podiff.
[22:00] <IlyaHaykinson> er, c7p1
[22:02] <godbyk> Moving right along...
[22:02] <godbyk> [TOPIC] E-book formats
[22:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  E-book formats
[22:02] <godbyk> We've had a few requests for alternative formats.
[22:02] <ChrisWoollard> Who was trying to get a Kindle version?
[22:02] <godbyk> These formats include web-based (HTML), a more accessible PDF, Kindle, Nook, and other e-book reader formats.
[22:03] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I've had 2-3 people ask about a Kindle edition.
[22:03] <hannie> Has there ever been a survey on the use of certain formats?
[22:04] <IlyaHaykinson> why doesn't the current PDF work on the kindle?
[22:04] <IlyaHaykinson> i guess i can go check it out...
[22:04] <godbyk> For the non-PDF formats, our best bet would be to use a different source format (such as Docbook) that allows conversion to multiple output formats.
[22:04] <ChrisWoollard> No idea, i don't have a kindle
[22:04] <godbyk> For the PDF formats, I can design the book to fit onto different screen sizes.
[22:04] <rickfosb> At the risk of being shunned..., ipad release
[22:04] <ChrisWoollard> Kindle can open .mobi
[22:04] <CrustyBarnacle> IlyaHaykinson: thought I'd heard it was badly formatted (flow?) on the kindle.
[22:05] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, let me go test it
[22:05] <rickfosb> I can read pdf on the ipad;  seems clean.
[22:05] <godbyk> I *think* the Kindle tries to scale the entire PDF page to the screen, which makes the text too small to be readable.
[22:05] <godbyk> But I haven't tried it myself.
[22:06] <rickfosb> godbyk: the request came from someone who was considering tinkering with the build?
[22:06] <godbyk> rickfosb: I think the person who had suggested the tex4ht build option was different from the requester.
[22:06] <rickfosb> godbyk: All: sorry, i'm behind your comments... disregard
[22:06] <godbyk> rickfosb: Ah, 'kay. :)
[22:07] <c7p1> hm https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02556.html
[22:08] <rickfosb> Action?
[22:08] <godbyk> c7p1: The 'Simple Guide' he refers to uses OpenOffice.org as the source format.
[22:08] <ChrisWoollard> So..... That was what i was going to say
[22:08] <ChrisWoollard> Are we going to look at other versions for natty or natty+1
[22:09] <ChrisWoollard> i.e epub / mobi etc
[22:09] <godbyk> I'd really like to look at other formats, yeah.
[22:09] <rickfosb> My view would be that IF we could make it transparent to our Author/Editor teams... then I'm ok.
[22:09] <godbyk> I think that ultimately, we'll have to switch source formats, though. So that'll probably be something to hold off on until natty+1.
[22:09] <c7p1> yes but on the last mail he says that he will research the whole thing (learn to use Latex etc)
[22:09] <rickfosb> Especially if we can tweak our build so that it builds the new formats when requested
[22:10] <CrustyBarnacle> action to push out to natty+1?
[22:10] <rickfosb> Otherwise, I would suggest that we look at other formats for LTS releases?
[22:10] <godbyk> rickfosb: Well, we'd probably be switching the source format and that would affect the authors/editors.  The build aspect would be transparent, though (aside from ensuring that the proper tools have been installed).
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> i think that any format change is probably too late to do now.
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> unless we think we can make the change in 3 weeks.
[22:11] <rickfosb> IlyaHaykinson: agree
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> otherwise, we risk having a serious delay on the natty manual as we fight with the new tools.
[22:11] <c7p1> + the documentation that is needed for authors/editors
[22:12] <ChrisWoollard> hence why we said natty+1
[22:12] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I agree.  I think we should hold off on the format change until natty+1 so we have time to work out the issues and ensure a smooth transition.
[22:12] <ChrisWoollard> natty+1 = oneric ocelot
[22:13] <godbyk> Having said all that, if I can generate a PDF that's more friendly to e-book readers and tablets, I'm willing to give that a try for natty.
[22:13] <rickfosb> and I thought narwhal was going to be difficult :))
[22:13] <godbyk> rickfosb: If you had any idea of the sorts of blue-sky plans we have... ;-)
[22:14] <rickfosb> I'm thinking we put it out on the ibooks store... that's blue sky.... ha
[22:14] <godbyk> Another format request I had was for a large-print edition.  (I think this request was from someone on the Lithuanian translation team.)
[22:15] <godbyk> And that's something I'm willing to tackle.
[22:15] <c7p1> that's the guru
[22:15] <rickfosb> What constitutes large format?  Font size? Font Type? something else?
[22:15] <godbyk> rickfosb: Font size mostly.
[22:15] <rickfosb> kay
[22:16] <godbyk> The page layout will need to be adjusted a bit, too.
[22:16] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition: Prologue introduction section
[22:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition: Prologue introduction section
[22:16] <godbyk> This topic was proposed by piratemurray.
[22:16] <rickfosb> I read his request;  I also read the prologue this week.  Not sure what would need to be added??
[22:16] <godbyk> He asks: How much of a rewrite do you want? Was thinking it is pretty good as is and will update for new happenings in Natty only. Thoughts on this?
[22:16] <ChrisWoollard> I am fairly sure this chapter was editted a long time ago
[22:17] <rickfosb> ChrisWoolard: agree, could not find any copy edits.
[22:17] <ChrisWoollard> I am also fairly sure it was me that did it ;)
[22:17] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, just tested on my kindle
[22:17] <IlyaHaykinson> the document looks good, but it certainly isn't optimal in terms of font size
[22:17] <IlyaHaykinson> everything is readable with good eyesight, including margins
[22:17] <IlyaHaykinson> and you can zoom
[22:18] <IlyaHaykinson> but that's not the normal kindle experience where you can easily control font sizing
[22:18] <IlyaHaykinson> still, we could fix this by increasing the font size a lot (2-3 times the current point size)
[22:18] <rickfosb> Do the margins need to stay?  It's a lot of real estate to pay homage to the 'print' world?  Just asking?
[22:18] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I've got a couple articles about using LaTeX to generate Kindle PDFs. I may play with it a bit and send you some PDFs to test out.
[22:19] <ChrisWoollard> http://kindleformatting.com/
[22:19] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kindleformatting.com/
[22:19] <IlyaHaykinson> rickfosb: good point. the margins could become in-line boxes or something
[22:19] <godbyk> rickfosb: For the e-book versions, we could certainly reduce the margins.
[22:19] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Thanks.
[22:19] <godbyk> Is there anything else to say in regards to the prologue?
[22:19] <rickfosb> Inline box might be worth looking into
[22:19] <rickfosb> None here.
[22:19] <godbyk> Okay.
[22:19] <c7p1> yeah
[22:20] <godbyk> rickfosb: Did we cover all your Natty milestone questions already?
[22:20] <rickfosb> I'll take an Action item to discuss with the pirate
[22:20] <rickfosb> Yes on Milestones
[22:20] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty quick reference
[22:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty quick reference
[22:20] <godbyk> hannie?
[22:20] <hannie> I was just wondering if we can add such a list to the manual
[22:21] <hannie> a lot of things have moved to another place
[22:21] <hannie> Maybe we can list the old location and the new one on one page
[22:21] <godbyk> Is this 'transition guide' something that you think should exist in the manual or as a separate document?
[22:22] <hannie> In the manual
[22:22] <godbyk> Generally, I think our manual's target audience is for people who are new to Ubuntu.  I wouldn't want to confuse people by references old releases of Ubuntu if we can avoid it.
[22:22] <godbyk> What does everyone else think?
[22:23] <IlyaHaykinson> fyi -- here's our manual on the kindle: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Public/IMG_20110501_141808.jpg?w=2c7ed2c7
[22:23] <ChrisWoollard> Aren't quick reference guides usually seperate documents?
[22:23] <rickfosb> I'm open to a Quick Reference page.  We'd need to determine what needs to be there.
[22:23] <IlyaHaykinson> better link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4018722/IMG_20110501_141808.jpg
[22:23] <hannie> I do not see why you could not make it part of the manual
[22:23] <IlyaHaykinson> i think the quick reference page would be great
[22:24] <hannie> But if there is no need for it, ok. It was just a suggestion
[22:24] <IlyaHaykinson> given the "shortcuts" wallpaper recently featured all over, i think people clearly want one
[22:24] <ChrisWoollard> Sounds more like an appendix to me
[22:25] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, I would see it as another "chapter"
[22:25] <hannie> or Index
[22:25] <hannie> or appendix if you want
[22:25] <c7p1> people can look for the info that they are looking for on the proper Chapter, for example for the Unity they can check the "Ubuntu Desktop" chapter
[22:25] <hannie> but the point is, should we, or shouldn't we add it to the manual
[22:26] <rickfosb> yea, see the desktop section says it all;  how to use ubuntu, where to get files, how to search... the new one will have to reference the dashboard...
[22:26] <hannie> but then you do not have a quick overview
[22:27] <rickfosb> So,...  while i'm open to a quick reference... i'm thinking an addendum?
[22:27] <hannie> yes, addendum, appendix, whatever
[22:27] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: +1
[22:27] <rickfosb> We used to get cardboard help sheets for everything from Excel to Unix... maybe a page of those hints?
[22:28] <rickfosb> The most often needed 'clicks'
[22:28] <hannie> that's the idea
[22:28] <rickfosb> A sort of wheres my 'cheese' for natty
[22:28] <ChrisWoollard> cheese is in the repo
[22:29] <rickfosb> godbyk:  I'm thinking we get a page that could be http ready and include as a reference in the back?
[22:29] <godbyk> rickfosb: We could do that, yeah.
[22:29] <rickfosb> Hannie: do you want the role?
[22:29] <godbyk> There are also existing 'introduction to unity' guides that have been recently posted online.
[22:30] <hannie> rickfosb, I want to try
[22:30] <rickfosb> Comes under the heading; be careful what you ask for... :))
[22:30] <ChrisWoollard> jcastro wrote it i think?
[22:30] <godbyk> Like this, for example: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/natty/
[22:30] <rickfosb> yea, I'm thinking there are a couple out there... Benjamin had one too?
[22:30] <godbyk> And another couple that were blog entries.
[22:30] <ChrisWoollard> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
[22:30] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
[22:31] <hannie> rickfosb, let me do some research and I will send it to you, ok?
[22:31] <rickfosb> yep;  Assuming we don't step on toes.
[22:31] <JasonO> rickfosb that is Benjamin's.
[22:31] <ChrisWoollard> but that is for powere users ;)
[22:31] <rickfosb> hannie: perfect!
[22:31] <godbyk> I think there was a link or two posted to the Ubuntu Docs mailing list recently, too.
[22:32] <godbyk> Let me see if I can scare those up real quick.
[22:32] <ChrisWoollard> scare?
[22:32] <rickfosb> Josno0: thought so;  he was even working out the Copy issues.
[22:32] <rickfosb> *Jason0
[22:32] <ChrisWoollard> If is currently licensed as a CC Sharealike 2.5
[22:33] <c7p1> godbyk:  this http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/natty/  ?
[22:33] <godbyk> c7p1: I think that was one of 'em, yeah.
[22:34] <godbyk> I'm not seeing the email. Maybe I imagined it. :)
[22:34] <JasonO> What happened?
[22:34] <godbyk> So the questions I have are:
[22:34] <godbyk> 1. Do we want to write our own quick reference guide or just point to an existing one?
[22:34] <JasonO> rickfosb Working on what?
[22:35] <godbyk> 2. If we write our own, should it be part of the manual or a separate document?
[22:35] <rickfosb> Jason0; copyright language in the post... to insure all could reprint... as is
[22:36] <rickfosb> Jason0: seems like i have an email string on it somewhere.
[22:36] <rickfosb> 1. take what's available, 2. addendum
[22:36] <c7p1> 1) i don't see the need of this section since the "Contents" section of the manual has a list with all the subjects that are covered on every chapter 2) if we decide to create one i think it's better to keep it on a separate doc or online
[22:37] <CrustyBarnacle> 2
[22:38] <rickfosb> c7p1: I certainly want it on line
[22:38] <rickfosb> (and assuming we have to 'print' at some point, we may elect to keep it out of the print version)
[22:39] <rickfosb> one whole minute
[22:40] <godbyk> I think that covers all the topics we had in the agenda.  Is there anything else anyone would like to bring up?
[22:40] <ChrisWoollard> Are we getting anywhere? THis meeting is now 1 hour 4 mins
[22:40] <ChrisWoollard> 40
[22:40] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business
[22:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[22:40] <ChrisWoollard> How long should this meeting be?
[22:41] <ChrisWoollard> :P
[22:41] <rickfosb> Sorry folks I put a long agenda together, but got my questions answered!
[22:41] <hannie> I had a meeting previous to this one which lasted 1 hour ;)
[22:41] <godbyk> Our meetings usually run fairly long. :)
[22:41] <godbyk> Okay, well, if there's nothing else pressing:
[22:41] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[22:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:41.
[22:42] <rickfosb> Thanks godbyk; job well done
[22:42] <godbyk> Of course, you're all welcome to hang around and continue discussing things.
[22:42] <ChrisWoollard> Thanks everybody
[22:42] <hannie> See you all, bye
[22:42] <CrustyBarnacle> Laters
[22:42] <rickfosb> Question for anyone; CD vs USB install... is Natty small enough to load via CD
[22:43] <rickfosb> I've been doing USB install for some time now.. and began to add text to the manual ...
[22:43] <Teotw> there are ubuntu natty cd's so im guessing so ?
[22:43] <IlyaHaykinson> CDs... those are those shiny plastic things that people used to use for coasters, right?
[22:43] <rickfosb> OK; I recall that at one time, the image was too large
[22:43] <c7p1> thank you all for coming :) good job godbyk
[22:43] <Teotw> i think it's ok now, afaik
[22:43] <rickfosb> They also make good throwing stars....
[22:43] <JasonO> rickfosb I might want to be a writer. I will let you know.
[22:44] <JasonO> JUst need Latex if that's what it's called?
[22:44] <rickfosb> Jason0: great email to rickfosb@gmail.com or to the 'list' and i'll pick it up.
[22:44] <JasonO> Alright.
[22:44] <Teotw> rickfosb: nattys not in the canonical shop, so...perhaps it's not. Idk if it's an indicator or not
[22:45] <IlyaHaykinson> ok folks, gonna go. bye
[22:45] <godbyk> I think they should switch to DVD images instead, but I have cheap, plentiful bandwidth. <shrug>
[22:45] <ChrisWoollard> bye
[22:45] <rickfosb> OK; thinking we might need to rethink the install if teh live CD is really only a Live USB or DVD
[22:45] <rickfosb> Thanks all!
[22:45] <Teotw> liveusb is faster so people would benefit more from that..
[22:46] <c7p1> ChrisWoollard: bye :)
[22:46] <rickfosb> all:  bye
[22:46] <godbyk> rickfosb: Their download page <http://www.ubuntu.com/download> says "CD".
[22:46] <godbyk> for what it's worth.
[22:46] <rickfosb> godbyk: got cha
[22:47] <Teotw> so, did i miss the whole author assignment deal?
[22:47] <JasonO> c7p1 Any adverts needed?
[22:49] <godbyk> JasonO: I can't think of any yet, but we'll have some in a few weeks.
[22:49] <JasonO> godbyk Thanks.
[22:49] <godbyk> We have a string freeze on the maverick edition on 14 May, so we'll be releasing it soon after that.
[22:49] <godbyk> Then we'll be frantically working on the natty edition.
[22:50] <c7p1> JasonO: yes there aren't any, although it might be good if you could learn to use gimp or any other image manipulator program or even a video producer
[22:51] <JasonO> c7p1 I know how to use Gimp.
[22:51] <c7p1> neat then :)
[22:51] <JasonO> And Istanbul.
[22:52] <c7p1> bye all :)
[22:52] <godbyk> G'bye, c7p1.
[22:52] <j1mc> reading back through some of this conversation, if you are looking for great pdf output, there's nothing better than LaTeX.
[22:53] <j1mc> unless you want to spend $1000 on Framemaker
[22:53] <JasonO> By c7p1
[22:53] <JasonO> *BYe
[22:53] <j1mc> i know LaTeX is kind of a pain, though
[22:53] <JasonO> *bye
[22:54] <godbyk> j1mc: For generating PDFs, I'd probably stick with LaTeX.
[22:54] <godbyk> The issue we were discussing was how to generate other (non-PDF) formats.  LaTeX isn't very good for that.
[22:54] <j1mc> ah, ok
[22:55] <j1mc> godbyk: are you familiar with pandoc?
[22:55] <godbyk> So we'll probably want to switch to a different source format so we can get different output formats (like HTML, epub, etc.).
[22:55] <godbyk> I'd still probably route it through LaTeX to generate PDFs, though.
[22:55] <godbyk> j1mc: A bit.
[22:55] <godbyk> Unfortunately, it doesn't truly understand LaTeX.  It only has a superficial understanding of it.
[22:56] <godbyk> And we're doing some non-standard things, so pandoc chokes on our .tex files.
[22:56] <j1mc> yeah, it is more to output to pdf via latex, not really to import from it
[22:56] <godbyk> j1mc: Have you been using Mallard much yet?
[22:57] <j1mc> yes, for the 11.04 help
[22:57] <j1mc> there is no pdf or epub output for it now, though.
[22:57] <godbyk> From earlier discussions with Shaun and the Ubuntu Docs team, I got the impression that Mallard was probably not the way to go for a linear book and that Docbook would be better.
[22:57] <j1mc> just on-disk (rendered by yelp) and html
[22:57] <godbyk> Does this jive with what you know of Mallard?
[22:58] <j1mc> yes... you can kind of bend it to work well with a book, but it's not what it is designed for.
[22:58] <godbyk> Well, if it's XML I could probably transform it to TeX relatively easily (with XSLT or a script).
[22:58] <j1mc> yes, perhaps.  i'm sure Shaun would appreciate anyone who could look into that.
[22:58] <godbyk> Mallard sounds great for topic-based help.
[22:58] <j1mc> i need to step out
[22:59] <j1mc> take it easy, godbyk
[22:59] <godbyk> I've just been poking around to see what other formats are in use that could be easily translated to HTML, epub, TeX, etc.
[22:59] <godbyk> j1mc: 'kay. See you later!