[00:01] <ali1234> so... bad ram?
[00:01] <penguin42> most likely
[00:01] <penguin42> reminds me, I need to clean my fan
[00:02] <hamitron> I should install a fan
[00:02] <hamitron> :/
[00:02] <hamitron> before the weather gets too hot
[00:03] <ali1234> pidgin crashed
[00:03] <ali1234> system is definitely messed up
[00:03] <hamitron> memtest time? ;)
[00:05] <ali1234> i wanna finish watching doctor who first
[00:05] <hamitron> :/
[00:17] <ali1234> apparently i have 3200mb of ram now
[00:17] <hamitron> how much should you have? 4gb?
[00:17] <ali1234> yeah
[00:18] <hamitron> in 32 bit mode?
[00:18] <ali1234> no
[00:18] <hamitron> :(
[00:19] <hamitron> maybe worth removing and re-installing modules?
[00:19] <HazRPG> sup?
[00:19] <HazRPG> also, evening guys
[00:19] <shauno> o/
[00:19] <hamitron> hi haz
[00:19] <hamitron> shaun
[00:19] <hamitron> :)
[00:21] <shauno> trying to play with gnome-shell, but stupid hardware support is getting in the way again :(
[00:21] <hamitron> was there less testing done on 11.04 than normal or something?
[00:22] <penguin42> hamitron: No but I think there were bigger changes
[00:22] <hamitron> yeh, suppose that would require more testing to make it as smooth as normal
[00:22] <hamitron> which may have taken too long
[00:24] <shauno> ow.  using the UI to remove restricted drivers, deletes your xorg.conf
[00:27] <shauno> also, every folder in /var/log which isn't readable by a regular user, is fail
[00:27] <shauno> zero point having a sudo setup if you have to sudo a shell to even navigate into the directory
[00:27] <penguin42> shauno: I guess that's a security trade off
[00:28] <hamitron> isn't there the "root terminal" in the apps menu?
[00:29] <shauno> I can't think of anything 'sensitive' which should show up in gdm's logs
[00:30] <Who__> ali1234: enjoy Doctor Who?
[00:31] <hamitron> ali1234: fixed?
[00:31] <ali1234> fixed the 3200mb thing yeah
[00:31] <hamitron> :D
[00:31] <ali1234> dunno about memory corruption though
[00:31] <hamitron> what was it?
[00:31] <ali1234> bios setting
[00:31] <ali1234> "remap around memory hole"
[00:31] <hamitron> ah
[00:32] <shauno> I don't care if the logs themselves are world-readable.  I can sudo grep.  but if the directory itself isn't readable, I can't
[00:33] <hamitron> sudo cat /dir/file | less ................. doesn't work?
[00:34] <shauno> sure.  if you can guess what the file is called
[00:35] <hamitron> yhe :/
[00:35] <hamitron> highest cpu tempt for me EVER.....
[00:35] <hamitron> 40 C
[00:35] <hamitron> :D
[00:36] <hamitron> on this rig I mean
[00:37] <shauno> what's the free driver for ati ?
[00:37] <hamitron> crap?
[00:37] <shauno> (eg, how do I use an ati card without the non-free driver)
[00:37] <hamitron> ;D
[00:37] <shauno> well, the non-free driver just gives me major display corruption.  but removing the non-free driver has left me with no X at all
[00:38] <hamitron> xserver-xorg-video-ati?
[00:39] <hamitron> there is a radeon one too
[00:39] <hamitron> :s
[00:40] <shauno> yeah.  I have both of those, still no go
[00:40] <hamitron> what card?
[00:42] <shauno> hm, something somewhere is still trying to load fglrx
[00:44] <shauno> lspci says 'amd radeon hd 6600m series'
[00:45] <shauno> should probably be trying to use the intel gpu, but I can't turn the ati one off when it's booted thru bios emulation :(
[00:46] <shauno> so the string fglrx doesn't appear in /etc/X11/ or /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/
[00:47] <shauno> but startx just complains the module doesn't exist and dies
[00:47] <hamitron> could you put something in the config to disable the driver ?
[00:48] <shauno> no idea.  I'm not familiar enough with the format of xorg.conf to start one from scratch :/
[00:48] <shauno> (and still mildly irked that the restricted-drivers UI nuked the conf I had.  means I need to set my trackpad up again next)
[00:48] <hamitron> it is kinda rude
[00:49] <shauno> if it wants to assume it owns the config, it should be using the conf.d instead of assuming ownership of the main configfile
[00:50] <ali1234> argh mythtv cut the end off
[00:50] <hamitron> :(
[00:51] <hamitron> I dunno why the bbc can't just offer torrents
[00:51] <hamitron> be easier
[00:51] <hamitron> :/
[00:51] <ali1234> i could just watch it on iplayer
[00:51] <ali1234> but i see no reason to use up the bandwidth
[00:51] <ali1234> and recording it off dvb is better quality anyway
[00:51] <hamitron> iplayer killed my XP install last time, not trying it again
[00:51] <hamitron> :/
[00:52] <ali1234> just use the streaming flash version?
[00:52] <hamitron> I use that grabber command line thing now
[00:53] <hamitron> get-iplayer
[00:53] <hamitron> :)
[00:55] <hamitron> ali1234: does that allow saving it?
[00:55] <ali1234> no
[00:55] <ali1234> why would you want to?
[00:55] <hamitron> no good then :/
[00:55] <hamitron> internet is too slow for streaming
[00:56] <shauno> get-iplayer rocks.  I have it dumping into my dropbox, so I always have a folder full of things to watch at work :)
[00:56] <hamitron> normally download, put on dvdrw, watch on tv in living room
[00:56] <hamitron> better than sitting at comp desk
[00:57] <hamitron> and it plays..... without pauses every 10 seconds
[00:57] <hamitron> which is a bonus
[00:57] <hamitron> ;)
[00:57] <HazRPG> well okay, seems round 2 of getting natty to work is failing
[00:57] <HazRPG> this is really annoying me now
[00:57] <Who__> night all. Thanks for the help on bugs
[00:57] <hamitron> nn Who__
[00:58] <HazRPG> it won't work on my P4 machine (graphical stuff fails badly... even though I can tell it has fallen back to gnome classic)
[00:58] <Who__> enjoy Doctor Who, everyone that hasn't seen it (hint: watch in dar room in empty house for full effect :P)
[00:58] <hamitron> ali1234: I guess if you can stream from a mid-point, the end missing is not a huge isssue
[00:58] <HazRPG> and now it won't even boot up off my core 2 duo laptop :/
[00:59] <HazRPG> CD drive has been trying to read away furiously for the past 15 minutes
[00:59] <ali1234> it takes ages to load
[01:00] <hamitron> they should of delayed release a little longer.... long enough to test for a bit and warrent another release party ;)
[01:01] <HazRPG> only took 4 mins to load on my P4, why should it take longer on my Core 2 Duo :/
[01:01] <gord> delaying releases just puts pressure on the next release, never a good idea
[01:02] <hamitron> gord, guess so :/
[01:02] <penguin42> HazRPG: Dislike for your CD drive? More hardware to detect and complain about
[01:02] <gord> i had tones of problems with the natty installer, booooo. ended up installing 10.10 and upgradin
[01:02] <gord> upgrading*
[01:02] <penguin42> installer problems are particularly nasty
[01:03] <penguin42> if it can't get something installed to the point where people can then fix it, then that's a _bad_bug
[01:03] <HazRPG> gord: Hmm, so what was the reasoning behind 6.06?
[01:03] <hamitron> hehe, having to wipe the whole drive? ;/
[01:03] <gord> 6.06 needed a lot of tender love and care and was an LTS
[01:04] <gord> no one wanted to ship an LTS with bad translations and such
[01:04] <hamitron> easy thing for testers to miss.... when they are not tainted by "other os"
[01:04] <hamitron> ;)
[01:04] <HazRPG> gord: Hmm, that makes sense I guess
[01:05] <hamitron> I'm really worried about ubuntu atm tbh, I don't feel it is going in the direction I want since 8.04 :/
[01:06] <JGJones> hamitron, I agree...it doesn't yet bloody iron my shirts.
[01:06] <gord> ironing shirts is our *top* priority
[01:06] <hamitron> haha
[01:07] <hamitron> it maybe isn't going in a bad direction, just not what suites me personally
[01:07] <hamitron> :/
[01:07] <hamitron> and part of me wants to stick with "the distro" of choice
[01:08] <shauno> meh, I give up.  I'll just put fglrx back on and try to deal with the distorted display
[01:09] <shauno> hah, that doesn't work either
[01:10] <HazRPG> the only thing I'm disliking - although I dislike other peoples reasoning - is the fact that ubuntu/canonical are doing the "re-invent the wheel" thing. The problem with Linux as a whole is no one wants to support it because there's too many variations, and it took someone to point it out to me for me to realise this
[01:10] <shauno> no idea what the restricted-drivers UI has done, but it's made a pretty nasty job of it
[01:11] <hamitron> HazRPG: my reasoning for trying to stick to "the distro".... if a large number use this setup on their machines, commercial products will start to support it and appear
[01:11] <HazRPG> hamitron: my reason is that too!
[01:11] <HazRPG> hamitron: too much choice, comes with too many problems to try to support
[01:11] <hamitron> yeh
[01:12] <HazRPG> someone had to point this out to me
[01:12] <HazRPG> and I can totally see why
[01:12] <hamitron> I failed trying to convince someone last night
[01:12] <hamitron> :/
[01:12] <hamitron> can't remember who it was
[01:13] <HazRPG> lol
[01:13] <HazRPG> ooo christ... desktop finally booted off the CD
[01:13] <hamitron> :)
[01:13] <hamitron> HazRPG: I just wish the LTS was supported longer
[01:13] <hamitron> ;)
[01:13] <HazRPG> only taken ~30mins to boot :/
[01:13] <shauno> NIH is good fun.  it's why we now have 3-4 variations of bootscripts :/
[01:14] <HazRPG> shauno: NIH?
[01:14] <shauno> I get 5 years out of LTS .. plenty long enough
[01:14] <shauno> HazRPG: not invented here
[01:14] <hamitron> shauno: 3 years on desktop
[01:14]  * penguin42 realises it's May - wth happened to April?
[01:14] <hamitron> I suppose it would be fine if everything didn't change so much
[01:15] <hamitron> but that is not the fault of the distro
[01:15] <HazRPG> shauno: heh, this is why I'm glad when I installed ubuntu-server on my home server that I put 10.04 and not 10.10 ;)
[01:15] <shauno> 3 years isn't too bad.  gives you one year overlap to upgrade to the next LTS
[01:15] <hamitron> yeh
[01:15] <hamitron> but when xorg changes sooooooooo much it breaks things.....
[01:15] <shauno> (unless you have an emotional attachment to machines too old to run the next LTS ;)
[01:15] <hamitron> it is a nightmare
[01:16] <exobuzz> my biggest problem with ubuntu server, was that they took debian mdadm, made it udev aware, and then didnt touch it for 2 years
[01:16] <hamitron> shauno: doubt that ;)
[01:16] <exobuzz> so mdadm got well out of sync with kernel features
[01:16] <HazRPG> bah, I'm all for not supporting older gear, as long as the things that cause such things to happen can be justified!
[01:16] <exobuzz> software raid on ubuntu has had tons of problems
[01:16] <hamitron> my biggest problem with ubuntu server.... it won't boot on my server
[01:16] <hamitron> ;D
[01:16] <exobuzz> that's a minor issue ;-)
[01:16] <exobuzz> hehe
[01:16] <hamitron> 6.06, 8.04, 10.04........ all fail
[01:17] <exobuzz> just to make sure, your server isn't a zx spectrum ?
[01:17] <hamitron> it works with another kernel from slackware
[01:17] <hamitron> works with debian kernel too
[01:17] <HazRPG> hamitron: seriously ?
[01:17] <hamitron> yep
[01:18] <HazRPG> youch dude
[01:18] <HazRPG> what did they change in the kernel :S:S:S:S
[01:18] <HazRPG> or rather, what have they turned off :S
[01:18] <hamitron> or maybe on
[01:19] <hamitron> but debian does fine anyway
[01:19] <hamitron> and slackware before that
[01:20] <shauno> have you tried with a -386 kernel?
[01:21] <hamitron> I can't remember
[01:22] <hamitron> I did try more for 6.06 and 8.04
[01:22] <hamitron> but when 10.04 did the same, I just gave up straight away
[01:22] <shauno> ubuntu's 686 kernels are a bit funky.  they assume a couple of cpu flags that aren't actually in all 686's
[01:23] <hamitron> could be it
[01:23] <hamitron> it is a celeron.....
[01:23] <HazRPG> I thought the i386 build... was just that :S
[01:24] <HazRPG> or is the i386 build just a i686 build?
[01:24] <shauno> the iso labelled 386 just generically means a 32bit x86
[01:24]  * HazRPG recalls seeing something about ubuntu labeling i386 incorrectly
[01:24] <hamitron> i386 should use less advanced instructions I'd hope
[01:24] <hamitron> CentOS 5 does :(
[01:24] <hamitron> I downloaded ALL the cd for it, then found it won't run on 586
[01:25] <hamitron> haha
[01:25] <hamitron> that was ubuntu's fault
[01:25] <HazRPG> am I the only one to think the new scrollbar is hideous in natty? (I realise this is the liveCD and it is just using gnome-classic fallback)
[01:25] <hamitron> well, x.org's fault
[01:25] <exobuzz> HazRPG, can be removed
[01:25] <shauno> iirc the 686 kernel assumes bigmem, and then the pae kernel does bigmem64.  not all 686 cpus will actually live up to that
[01:25] <exobuzz> HazRPG, i dont like it either
[01:26] <exobuzz> i like nothing of the new ubuntu "features"
[01:26] <exobuzz> i know i complain a lot too.
[01:26] <shauno> I'm actually liking gnome-shell, except when the ati drivers decide the toolbar would look better in neon pink
[01:26] <HazRPG> I don't complain, I'd like to see WHY they did it... it doesn't make sense to just randomly change something without good reason, and I'm yet to see it
[01:26] <JGJones> Personally I'm not complaining....Ubuntu is working fantastic on my old PC (it's an AMD Athlon 2800+ so that make it erm...well at least more than 5 years old)
[01:27] <hamitron> JGJones: old? ;/
[01:27] <HazRPG> JGJones: heh, need I show you my screenshot of what happened on my p4?
[01:27] <JGJones> well I could complain that it's not installing on my RadioShack TRS-80 Model 4 Microcomputer
[01:27] <exobuzz> HazRPG, with the "switching" the window icons, they had lots of reasons, and one was "they were to use the right hand size for something else". they never did
[01:27] <exobuzz> felt like "excuses" to be to justify some "bad decisions"
[01:27] <JGJones> ffs it comes with DUAL 5 and half inch floppy disk drives.
[01:28] <hamitron> I expect ubuntu to run on any 686 comp, basically
[01:28] <exobuzz> im not sure ubuntu listens to the users anymore tbh
[01:28] <HazRPG> JGJones: have a look: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-tedGRcfQT4DIgUILLn1kQ?feat=directlink
[01:28] <hamitron> ;/
[01:29] <JGJones> HazRPG, that's from a LiveCD isn't it?
[01:29] <HazRPG> exobuzz: oh heh, I loved that - as a concept being able to use the real-estate of the window title space seemed like fantastic reasoning - I remember reading that one! I loved that idea! But like you said, I'm yet to see anything of it
[01:30] <HazRPG> JGJones: That's what it looked like on my P4, and yes it was a LiveCD.
[01:30] <shauno> exobuzz: I think it listens, but only for a specific variant of 'user'
[01:30] <hamitron> the ones that pay? ;)
[01:30] <HazRPG> JGJones: Looks like the LiveCD is running fine on my Core 2 Duo laptop however.
[01:30] <JGJones> HazRPG, I tend to get issues with LiveCD on my old PC, but the Natty one worked - however I've always used alternative install CD.
[01:30] <JGJones> quicker
[01:30] <shauno> hamitron: the hypothetical users that'll arrive when the "year of the linux desktop" actually occurs
[01:30] <hamitron> alt cd ftw
[01:31] <JGJones> and once installed, it doesn't behave the same as it does on LiveCD anyway.
[01:31] <hamitron> shauno: :D
[01:31] <HazRPG> JGJones: I always use Alt-CD as a thing, but when I'm really unsure about an install - I prefer to give it a test run inside of a LiveCD first
[01:31] <exobuzz> heh
[01:31] <hamitron> cli ftw
[01:32] <HazRPG> tempted to whack natty onto a pen drive and see what happens
[01:32] <JGJones> HazRPG, the ONLY problem with my old PC is that its original video card died - it was an ATI Radeon...um...9800? No idea...it was good when it was new! and so the only spare I had was the worst ATI card - Radeon 7000VE
[01:32] <JGJones> so there's no accelrated anything, but Unity 2D works pretty well.
[01:33] <JGJones> although will go on ebay and find a better replacement for AGP to replace the graphics.
[01:33] <exobuzz> i wonder if anyone who "needs" the mouse accessibility features has tried natty. they will be disappointed https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/762806
[01:33] <lubotu3`> Ubuntu bug 762806 in mousetweaks (Ubuntu Natty) "[regression] shipped mousetweaks (3.0) does not work with shipped control-center (2.32), needs downgrade" [High,Triaged]
[01:34] <JGJones> if I remember right, I got my PC late 2002/ early 2003 I think it might be Nov/Dec 2002
[01:34] <exobuzz> there was plenty of time to fix it before release. but no-one noticed in time
[01:34] <shauno> oh wow.  battery usage is obscene :(
[01:35] <JGJones> shauno, yup...I keep thinking my laptops need a replacement battery
[01:35] <HazRPG> hmm, I might just try this as a proper install on my laptop - I don't use my laptop for much these days anyway - but I defo aint trying this on my development system at all though - not unless I can warrant a good reason for it
[01:35] <JGJones> well the macbook does need a new battery...it's dead as a dodo.
[01:36] <shauno> it's estimating just shy of 2 hours. I get 9 under osx
[01:36] <HazRPG> I'm all for giving things the benefit of the doubt (I did when the flipped my window icons around!)
[01:36] <exobuzz> do you have to send your macbook back to apple with £200 to get a new battery or do they allow you to replace them yourselves these days ?
[01:37] <shauno> depends how old 'old' is, which odd shape screwdrivers you own, and how attached you are to your warranty
[01:37] <exobuzz> heh
[01:37] <HazRPG> okay, well that's a weird place to put a "System Settings" option :S
[01:38] <shauno> HazRPG: hah, yeah I noticed that.  did wonder if they're aware that icon has a very specific meaning
[01:38] <JGJones> that remind me...doesn't the newer mac's come with a newer better "awesome-built-in" designed screws?
[01:38] <exobuzz> apple hardware might be ok, but how do they get away with "2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
[01:38] <exobuzz> 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo [+ £123.00] "
[01:38] <exobuzz> etc
[01:38] <exobuzz> 2GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x1GB
[01:38] <exobuzz> 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB [+ £80.00]
[01:38] <exobuzz> 8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB [+ £240.00]
[01:38] <exobuzz> having a laugh!
[01:38] <shauno> their bto options are always stir crazy.  always have been :/
[01:38] <JGJones> exobuzz, Apple have very very GOOD marketing team....there's plenty of people that would pay those prices.
[01:39] <exobuzz> s/people/idiots
[01:39] <exobuzz> :)
[01:39] <JGJones> after all...it's Apple.
[01:39] <hamitron> do apple let you upgrade memory yourself?
[01:39] <shauno> yes
[01:39] <hamitron> that is ok then
[01:39] <exobuzz> you need a credit card to replace ram on mac mini.
[01:39] <exobuzz> to open the case up
[01:39] <exobuzz> heh
[01:40] <JGJones> Those RAM upgrade are pre-selected by virgin handmaidens, and kissed by Job himself, and quite frankly, you don't understand the technical stuff behind it so leave it to us :D
[01:40] <exobuzz> JGJones, lol
[01:40] <shauno> the new ones are a lot better for that.  the old minis were never intended to be opened :/
[01:40] <JGJones> shauno, oh yes they was meant to be.
[01:40] <JGJones> You just needed an Apple iHammer.
[01:40] <exobuzz> ive opened up a few of em
[01:40] <hamitron> iHammer
[01:40] <hamitron> haha
[01:40] <exobuzz> replace hds etc
[01:40] <exobuzz> hehe
[01:41] <exobuzz> i got a ppc one here.. i just replaced the dead hd with another dead hd. doh
[01:41] <JGJones> mind you...Apple hardware are pretty well made
[01:41] <JGJones> I just don't like OSX or the stupid pricing.
[01:41] <hamitron> just a shame they are out of my budget :/
[01:41] <shauno> the old ones were horrible.  step1 was trying to remove the rubber mat with a wallpaper scraper :/
[01:41] <exobuzz> mac users like to forget when mac os was sh*te
[01:42] <shauno> yes
[01:42] <exobuzz> they rewrite history
[01:42] <shauno> macos was aweful 10 years ago
[01:42] <shauno> the big difference is, it's had 10 years worth of improvements
[01:42] <JGJones> exobuzz, pff...no you're wrong...they do not rewrite history...
[01:42] <JGJones> there is no history until Apple does it.
[01:42] <shauno> as I sit here trying to get X working in natty, I can tell you linux hasn't actually moved on since 1998 at all
[01:43] <hamitron> shauno: it has moved back....
[01:43] <exobuzz> every forum needs this mac smiley http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/mac.gif
[01:43] <exobuzz> :)
[01:43] <hamitron> now it doesn't have a .conf file to edit \o/
[01:43] <JGJones> I look forward to Wayland
[01:43] <exobuzz> JGJones, :)
[01:43] <shauno> it used to be people laughed at apple
[01:43] <shauno> now they bash them like crazy because they're winning
[01:44] <hamitron> what annoys me.... Apple are actually more restrictive than MS
[01:44] <JGJones> shauno, true. Although I personally don't like OSX myself, but what piss me off is really Apple marketing.
[01:44] <hamitron> so I use linux, wanting a better computing market
[01:44] <shauno> hamitron: how so ?
[01:44] <hamitron> and Apple are gaining
[01:44] <exobuzz> i find mac users overly smug and annoying. and most of em can't actually even use their computer, although they would have you believe they are experts :) they deserve all the bashing they get :)
[01:44] <hamitron> shauno: telling you the hardware to run their OS on
[01:44] <HazRPG> shauno: bah, that really confused me because I clicked it by mistake... since the last option has always been "shutdown" ... and my eye had skimmed over the word "shutdown" took me a second to realise something was opening instead of shutting down
[01:44] <JGJones> they make damn good hardware, and OSX is...um...I suppose it's good (just not my cup of tea) but Apple marketing...argh.
[01:45] <JGJones> especially that line "Think Different"
[01:45] <hamitron> if they let you use OSX on custom hardware, I may not mind so much
[01:45] <JGJones> ffs...every bloody iOS devices LOOK THE SAME.
[01:45] <JGJones> same grid layout etc
[01:45] <shauno> hamitron: if they let you use osx on random hardware, it'd completely negate the 'just works' thing
[01:46] <shauno> you'd have crazy people trying to run it on 200MHz SiS chips and asking why it doesn't work
[01:46] <JGJones> they're just clones...how are they thinking different when they're just part of a clone army? :)
[01:46] <hamitron> shauno: yes, I don't expect the same level of support
[01:46] <shauno> it doesn't matter if they don't support it.  it still makes it look sloppy
[01:46] <JGJones> or that they're first with anything new.
[01:46] <shauno> JGJones: catch there.  they are first
[01:46] <JGJones> Facetime is one - I've had people telling me that Apple was the FIRST to do video calling.
[01:46] <hamitron> using different shaped screws is another.....
[01:47] <shauno> like intel's lightpeak / thunderbolt bus.  has anyone else got that to market yet?
[01:47] <hamitron> how am i to take it apart and clean the dust out, before it overheats and melts?
[01:47] <JGJones> Despite that I've been using video calling over 3G on a Sony Ericsson many years before.
[01:47] <shauno> hamitron: my laptop opens with a philips screwdriver.  you're inventing things again
[01:47] <hamitron> I read they are stopping people opening them
[01:48] <JGJones> and the last straw was...a mate I was talking to - I've done video calling with him (he had a Nokia)....and he geninuely believe that Apple is the FIRST to do video calls via Facetime.
[01:48] <shauno> they're actually getting easier to open
[01:48] <JGJones> wtf/
[01:48] <shauno> since ram & hdd are meant to be user-servicable, and there isn't a door in the bottom to get to them anymore, they've actually made the bottom easier to remove than previous bodies
[01:49] <JGJones> show him fring doing video calls on Android over 3G. He's telling me...nah, Apple did it first...let me find a hotspot...
[01:49] <exobuzz> remember that early apple advert by ridley scott? with apple users being the "individual". now its almost the opposite with the apples being the drones
[01:49] <JGJones> Think Different? I did, I got Ubuntu :)
[01:49] <exobuzz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhsWzJo2sN4
[01:49] <shauno> have they actually used the think different tagline in the last 10 years?
[01:50] <JGJones> the best advert was the 1984 one.
[01:50] <hamitron> shauno: I do get the Apple way, and understand how it could work.... just don't like 1 company regulating everything
[01:50] <exobuzz> JGJones, thats the one im on about
[01:50] <shauno> the fun thing is, there's plenty of technical reasons to hate apple on
[01:50] <JGJones> oh...didn't realise that was by Ridley Scott.
[01:50] <exobuzz> yeh
[01:50] <shauno> apparently no-one actually knows them, and just keeps rehashing random crap they've heard from other trolls
[01:51] <HazRPG> bah, why do people bash Apple so! They're geniuses in their own right!
[01:51] <JGJones> heh true...
[01:51] <hamitron> the bios is supposed to be weird?
[01:51] <shauno> there is no bios
[01:51] <exobuzz> they say 1984 wont be like 1984.. funny that. with all their "restrictions" on their store.. seems a bit big brother to me
[01:51] <hamitron> well, however it works
[01:51] <hamitron> it is different :/
[01:51] <JGJones> and that location tracking thing?
[01:51] <JGJones> "oh the users doesn't understand the technical stuff"
[01:52] <hamitron> location tracking is fine, until they sell the info to ya gf ;)
[01:52] <HazRPG> despite the fact that I could never afford one, and the polish they do to it just isn't to my taste, and the keyboard and mouse clicks drive me insane on skype, (I'd hate to see what happens if I actually own one) - but as a concept, as a true idea... they are geniuses!
[01:52] <shauno> yes it's different.  they use uefi, which is actually a modern standard.  PCs are going the same way too, just much slower
[01:52] <exobuzz> i have uefi on my pc
[01:52] <exobuzz> (and efi on the joggler)
[01:52] <JGJones> I have...um...BIOS!
[01:52] <JGJones> it's awesome.
[01:52] <hamitron> my main problem is the cost of them
[01:52] <hamitron> :/
[01:52] <JGJones> it haven't failed me...yet ;-)
[01:52] <exobuzz> i have "kickstart" too on my other pc ;-)
[01:53] <exobuzz> amiga pc of course. heh.
[01:53] <JGJones> Had a A500 myself
[01:53] <JGJones> it's dead.
[01:53] <shauno> bios is 80's legacy.  you wouldn't purposely design a platform with it today.  so they didn't.
[01:53] <exobuzz> <3 a500
[01:53] <exobuzz> dead ?
[01:53] <exobuzz> nooOoOooOo
[01:53] <hamitron> shauno: I agree they are forward thinking
[01:53] <JGJones> the A500 should never be used as a frisbee by a upset brother.
[01:54] <hamitron> and they make some good stuff
[01:54] <exobuzz> *sniff*. rip
[01:54] <JGJones> However the Spectrum 48K survived just about anything.
[01:54] <shauno> hamitron: it's not so much forward thinking.  they just have no attachment to any of the legacy PC stuff, because they never ran on them in the first place
[01:54] <exobuzz> JGJones, rubber one just bounced around the room ?
[01:54] <exobuzz> ok. only the keys were rubber but
[01:55] <shauno> so they can jump straight into the new toys without having to support things that should have been wiped out years ago
[01:55] <HazRPG> holy cow, my laptop just had a screen spasm! *goes to attend to it quickly*
[01:55] <JGJones> exobuzz, aye...well the metal casing did fly apart, but just glued it back together...it still worked.
[01:55] <hamitron> shauno: there is no reason others can't, is there?
[01:55] <JGJones> No longer have it as my father found it in his attic and instead of asking me, gave it away
[01:55] <shauno> hamitron: problem with legacy stuff is people still use it
[01:56] <HazRPG> this isn't cool!
[01:56] <exobuzz> JGJones, i got an old workbench screengrab from 13 years ago from my a1200 http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/wb.png seems small on a modern screen
[01:56] <HazRPG> my laptop is having a mega fit!
[01:56] <exobuzz> 16 cols
[01:56] <hamitron> I am surprised they haven't made a jump when things started to go 64 bit
[01:56] <hamitron> drop old tech then
[01:57] <shauno> I really hoped x86_64 would have no 32bit compatibility.  then they really could have made a clean break
[01:57] <hamitron> yeh
[01:57] <hamitron> intel tried it :/
[01:57] <hamitron> they were maybe too early
[01:57] <exobuzz> hamitron, ia64 ? or so
[01:57] <hamitron> yeh
[01:58] <exobuzz> they are killing that off now right ?
[01:58] <shauno> that's what apple gain from being draconian about their hardware
[01:58] <hamitron> I think so
[01:58] <shauno> they can make clean breaks like that, and have everything else move with it.  because they control the lot
[01:58] <hamitron> but can you upgrade something like a graphics card?
[01:58] <HazRPG> shauno: agreed
[01:58] <hamitron> without it been picky
[01:59] <shauno> that I'm not sure about, don't have a mac pro.  not that rich :)
[01:59] <HazRPG> the only reason I stick to my old hardware that I do, is because I'm too cheap to buy whole sets of everything lol
[01:59] <hamitron> they sell a computer as a product itself, not a load of bits put together with some software slapped on it
[01:59] <exobuzz> old hardware ftw
[01:59] <hamitron> far better for the end user
[01:59] <HazRPG> my development/machine I always use, is always upgrade constantly... everything else sits on the backbench
[01:59] <shauno> exobuzz: 640x512?  you should get yourself an indivision card for it :)
[02:00] <exobuzz> shauno, heh, or a 24 bit graphics card perhaps :)
[02:00] <shauno> hamitron: it's not.  it's far better for tinkerers.  it's not far better for users
[02:00] <hamitron> shauno: I think Apple products are better for teh average user that doesn't tinker
[02:00] <exobuzz> shauno, ive given jens far too much of my money already. last was the catweasel and the software wasnt "completed". he always does that. cool hardware with unfinished software
[02:01] <exobuzz> i might buy his a500 accelerator though
[02:01] <jibadeeha> ia64 is a rubbish chip .. and now end of the line
[02:01] <shauno> I've had no problem with mine
[02:01] <HazRPG> hamitron: I disagree, Apple products are fine for all users... Apple products are just not good for those that want to constantly swap out hardware
[02:01] <exobuzz> shauno, with your cataweasel ?
[02:02] <hamitron> HazRPG: hence why apple stuff is not good for tinkering?
[02:02] <shauno> nah, my indivision aga
[02:02] <HazRPG> exobuzz: hmm catweasel sounds familiar... what's the jens?
[02:02] <exobuzz> aah ok
[02:02] <exobuzz> http://www.jschoenfeld.com/home/indexe.htm
[02:02] <shauno> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blakespot/4303654566/
[02:02] <exobuzz> shauno, well, thats more hardware than software i guess. but yeh its the best option for flicker fixing (plus some extras)
[02:03] <shauno> not my pics, but that's the board I've got.  1024x768 is lovely :)
[02:03] <HazRPG> hamitron: yeah but if you tinker with software, terminal, external devices... then your fine with apple products though - those are all tinkerers too
[02:03] <exobuzz> ive actually got a bvisionppc in my a1200, cept i had a short with it recently and some smoke was made so i have to take it apart
[02:03] <hamitron> HazRPG: I don't call that tinkering, I call that end user use :)
[02:03] <shauno> no ppc, can't stomach the prices the leeches have on ebay
[02:03] <HazRPG> when I say tinker with software I meant programmers ;)
[02:04] <exobuzz> http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/a1200/ http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/a1200/img_4537.jpg http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/a1200/IMG_4312.JPG
[02:04] <exobuzz> my a1200..
[02:04] <shauno> got an 040 and some more ram in it, but can't justify the ppc
[02:04] <HazRPG> and as for external devices, I was referring to developer boards
[02:05] <hamitron> HazRPG: I just don't count that as tinkering with the comp
[02:05] <shauno> apple really sell to the people who expect to buy something, turn it on, and use it
[02:05] <hamitron> it is technical use
[02:05] <shauno> not the people who want to get in there with a rubber mallet
[02:05] <hamitron> yeh
[02:05] <HazRPG> besides, I'm sure the Apple version of PC's have expansion bays/ports on their PC line-up though
[02:05] <exobuzz> shauno, £132 for an indivision. not cheap is it !
[02:05] <shauno> it's not :(
[02:06] <shauno> did make a lovely start to a virgin 1200 tho
[02:06] <hamitron> HazRPG: it used to be the case, you had to get specific graphics card chipsets
[02:06] <shauno> means it'll run with a regular vga monitor, instead of having to find something that'll scan down to 15khz
[02:06] <hamitron> because of drivers in OSX
[02:07] <hamitron> not sure now
[02:07] <shauno> pretty sure that's still the case.  seems popular to buy the PC variant and flash it with the right firmware to turn it into the mac variant  hehe
[02:07] <HazRPG> hamitron: I think a lot of companies do actually make Mac drivers too now
[02:07] <hamitron> yeh
[02:08] <hamitron> but MS Windows is more open to custom setups and drivers
[02:08] <shauno> that's been getting much better since steam came out.  being able to benchmark games against the pc variant on the same hardware has really shook up the video support
[02:08] <hamitron> and linux
[02:08] <hamitron> :D
[02:08] <HazRPG> feel bad for my laptop... seems the LiveCD was fine... but the install is going well and truly mental
[02:08] <HazRPG> :(
[02:09] <hamitron> but I would get a Mac notebook without a worry, I don't expect to tinker with a notebook so much
[02:10] <hamitron> but the people I want to bash most......
[02:10] <hamitron> X.org :/
[02:10] <hamitron> moving forward so fast and dropping support for old ways of doing stuff
[02:10] <HazRPG> poor graphical support?
[02:11] <hamitron> well, it is the breaking compatibility that bugs me
[02:11] <hamitron> I'd have liked them to offer a compile option to choose old functionality
[02:12] <shauno> I would say Xorg need to move forward fast, but I think the reality is, Xorg needs to be taken out back & shot
[02:12] <hamitron> yeh
[02:12] <hamitron> but why not offer that retro option?
[02:12] <hamitron> ;)
[02:12] <shauno> X is the retro option
[02:12] <hamitron> the code is there and working
[02:12] <HazRPG> X.org is too old to just move forward, its only going to move forward if someone starts it from scratch
[02:13] <hamitron> X?
[02:13] <shauno> X11 is designed for timesharing machines.  how much more retro can it get?
[02:13] <ali1234> http://a17.video2.blip.tv/10220007704613/Linuxconfau-XAndTheFutureOfLinuxGraphics549.ogv?brs=675&bri=19.4
[02:14] <hamitron> it needs to keep the old methods to do stuff, so old drivers can work
[02:14] <hamitron> the way things are going, MS provide support for older hardware for longer
[02:14] <hamitron> :/
[02:14] <ali1234> putting all the drivers into xorg is part of why it sucks
[02:15] <hamitron> 10 years ago, linux was a system to replace windows on aging hardware
[02:15] <HazRPG> agreed
[02:15] <ali1234> 10 years ago linux was for neeeeeeeeeeeeerds
[02:15] <shauno> hamitron: not any more.  these days, xp is the option for computers too old to run linux :p
[02:15] <hamitron> and now it is for who?
[02:15] <hamitron> shauno: plenty of old comps, ideal to break into the market
[02:15] <shauno> as I said.  it's for the hypothetical users that'll appear during the year of the linux desktop
[02:16] <hamitron> appears so
[02:16] <hamitron> but for all these resources it takes, it is not doing a very good job is it? ;/
[02:17] <shauno> nope.  but that doesn't matter, because it's not the year of the linux desktop yet :)
[02:17] <hamitron> also, you need the "nerds" to keep it going imo
[02:17] <ali1234> 10 years ago linux didn't even have working USB
[02:17] <ali1234> or wifi
[02:18] <ali1234> you were lucky if your printer even worked
[02:18] <ali1234> no 3d acceleration
[02:18] <hamitron> linux was fine 10 years ago :/
[02:18] <ali1234> no, it was rubbish
[02:18] <shauno> printing should be much better now that you're using apple's cupsys :p
[02:19] <ali1234> pretty much everything good on linux today was written by (or written under contract for) either apple or nokia
[02:19] <hamitron> it has got easier, yeh, but it has also got wasteful
[02:20] <shauno> I'm curious to see what license apple's replacement for samba is going to be under
[02:21] <HazRPG> *cracks open a bottle of bud*
[02:21] <hamitron> :)
[02:21] <ali1234> 10 years ago i was using fvwm95
[02:21] <ali1234> it really really sucked
[02:21] <ali1234> but it was the best thing available
[02:21] <hamitron> I liked Gnome 1.x tbh
[02:21] <hamitron> :)
[02:21] <jibadeeha> i remember my first slackware cd (walnut creek or something) ... got it with a book and loved it.. couldn't get X to work for a few years
[02:21] <ali1234> haha same
[02:21] <HazRPG> I have a feeling my stand on getting natty to work is going to be an all-nighter job... and waking up in the morning with a bottle of bud in one hand, a screwdriver in the other, tears and blood on my shirt... and a computer taken to bits lying on the floor xD
[02:22] <ali1234> even when you did get it to work you got twm
[02:22] <HazRPG> here we go *opens first bottle*
[02:22] <shauno> I didn't mind gnome 1.x with ximian gnome.  stock, it was pretty dire
[02:22] <ali1234> because there was no login manager back then
[02:22] <hamitron> I don't use a login manager now :D
[02:22] <shauno> most the time I just stuck to blackbox, because I only really used X for opera
[02:23] <jibadeeha> windowmaker was my fav window manager .. somewhat like unity i guess
[02:23] <ali1234> if you were lucky enough to have a motherboard with supported usb... you would plug something in and... nothing would happen, because there was no hardware manager
[02:23] <hamitron> usb is over rated
[02:23] <ali1234> you'd have to be root and then mount your usb flash drive manually
[02:24] <ali1234> back then, most distros couldn't even install packages from the internet
[02:24] <hamitron> but most of us had 56k modems.....
[02:24] <ali1234> you had to download them one at a time and install them manually... doing your own dependency resolution
[02:24] <shauno> yeah.  hyperbole much?
[02:24] <ali1234> the only way to get your packages from the internet was to install debian
[02:25] <ali1234> which had zero documentation
[02:25] <HazRPG> shauno: overly so
[02:25] <shauno> 10 years ago I had debian potato, and apt-get worked just fine :)
[02:25] <ali1234> so everyone used red hat or slackware
[02:25] <jibadeeha> i remember being able to install from slackware cd but once installed it was a pain to get my external ide cd working
[02:25] <hamitron> suse docs were all German though ;/
[02:25] <HazRPG> shauno: potato! \o/
[02:25] <HazRPG> shauno: I'm in space :)
[02:25] <ali1234> i tried to install debian back then but it would always crash out in the middle of the installer
[02:26] <ali1234> because back then even the installers were crap and would fall over if you looked at them the wrong way
[02:26] <hamitron> redhat was good
[02:26] <hamitron> so was slackware
[02:26] <hamitron> :/
[02:26] <shauno> apt-cd worked just fine too, so I'd buy the release from linuxemporium, apt-cd the disks, and just use online repos for updates
[02:26] <HazRPG> T_____T redhat
[02:27] <ali1234> maybe i'm thinking of 15 years ago
[02:27] <ali1234> when pcs didn't have cdroms
[02:27] <ali1234> and you had to install from 200 floppies
[02:27] <hamitron> ali1234: it is easy to look back too far
[02:27] <HazRPG> I recall how slow cdroms use to be T_T
[02:27] <shauno> 15 years ago, slackware 3.3's installer was resilient enough that it was quite happy to let me using both floppy drives in lieu of having enough ram to ramdisk off the first disk
[02:28] <HazRPG> damn sight faster than floppies were
[02:28] <HazRPG> but was still just as slow to get anything going on it
[02:28] <shauno> it complained about wanting 4Mb of ram, but it'd handle less with multiple floppy drives :)
[02:28] <hamitron> slackware worked on 4Mb ram upto 11.0
[02:29] <hamitron> just
[02:29] <hamitron> ;)
[02:29] <HazRPG> old hardware needs to die at some point :P
[02:29] <hamitron> NEVER
[02:29] <jibadeeha> i remember buying freebsd 4.x ... reminded me very much of slackware
[02:29] <HazRPG> hamitron: oh don't worry, my c64 is safe for now ^_^
[02:29] <ali1234> i didn't even have an ide cdrom until about 2002
[02:30] <shauno> really, linux wasn't that bad 10 years.  all it's really done since is enjoyed design-by-comittee
[02:30] <hamitron> I got my first cdrom drive in 1995
[02:30] <shauno> it's basically done nothing interesting since freedesktop.org appeared
[02:30] <HazRPG> ali1234: I had one that came with a laptop back in 1998
[02:30] <ali1234> i had a cdrom drive in 1995 that plugged into the sound card and didn't work in anything except windows 3.1
[02:30] <HazRPG> (I say laptop, it might as well have been a sack of potatoes!)
[02:30] <hamitron> mine was ide
[02:30] <hamitron> :)
[02:30] <hamitron> 2x \o/
[02:30] <ali1234> the whole sound card didn't work in linux, there's a suprise
[02:31] <HazRPG> ali1234: I'm still yet to see that sound card link-up actually do anything!
[02:31] <jibadeeha> i remember buying my ide cdrom drive from Morgan computers in Manchester ... needless to say end of the line product ... but it was the best thing since slice bread
[02:31] <HazRPG> ali1234: I've never ONCE managed to get it to do what it was meant to do :/
[02:31] <hamitron> 13 years ago I was able to get EVERYTHING working on linux, with some comfig editing
[02:32] <shauno> pretty sure the cd player app in windows was the only thing I could ever get to actually play audio straight off the disk
[02:32] <hamitron> :/
[02:32] <jibadeeha> olvwm was my favourite window manager of all time though
[02:32]  * HazRPG edits hamitron's sentence to bold and make 20px the "some comfig editing" then corrects comfig with config!
[02:32] <jibadeeha> i use to use it on a Sun Sparc
[02:33] <hamitron> ty HazRPG ;)
[02:33] <shauno> which is what that cable was doing; offloaded the pcm->audio conversion onto the drive itself
[02:33] <ali1234> i managed to build a linux server where "everything" worked
[02:33] <ali1234> by buying random components and trying them until i found one that worked
[02:33] <hamitron> ali1234: this was my desktop machine
[02:33] <ali1234> i never got sound working except through the pc speaker driver
[02:33] <HazRPG> hamitron: haha, but its true... linux is more about the config than it is about getting it to just work, and it saddens me ;(
[02:34] <shauno> I swear sound on linux has actually got worse
[02:34] <ali1234> ha ha ha
[02:34] <ali1234> no
[02:34] <HazRPG> shauno: ? I don't have any issues with sound
[02:34] <jibadeeha> shauno, got better for me
[02:34] <hamitron> Sound Blaster 16 ftw ;)
[02:34] <ali1234> it was only a couple of years ago that i was able to have two different programs playing sound
[02:34] <shauno> it used to be I'd just remove esound, rebuild the kernel with oss and no alsa, and be happy
[02:35] <hamitron> I never try to listen to 2 songs at once :/
[02:35] <ali1234> i never saw oss work correctly ever
[02:35] <shauno> now there's so many layers of abstraction that I have no idea what's going on where
[02:35] <jibadeeha> blah djhfdkishfwiufhiuehiw
[02:35] <HazRPG> hamitron: yeah, but the point isn't to listen to 2 songs at once, the point is some applications try to beep at you for attention
[02:35] <ali1234> something would always lock /dev/audio and then no more sound
[02:35] <ali1234> or /dev/dsp i think it was called
[02:36] <hamitron> ok, so it wasn't as good in some ways..... but it was more fun
[02:36] <hamitron> ;/
[02:36] <shauno> I really didn't use X for much, so all I needed oss to do was mpg123
[02:36] <shauno> preferably without esd pretending to be clever, and ending up being 'special' instead
[02:37] <hamitron> hmmmm
[02:37] <ali1234> thinking about it my computer wasn't good enough to play mp3s until about 2002 either
[02:37] <HazRPG> does esd actually work now??
[02:37] <hamitron> I am half tempted to do linuxfromscratch again
[02:37] <shauno> hopefully, esd doesn't exist now
[02:37] <HazRPG> I recall tinkering with wine, some linux games and esd at one point... and it all failed miserably
[02:37] <shauno> if it does, it should be shot, followed by whoever's been keeping it alive
[02:37] <hamitron> oh, wine is amazing now
[02:37] <hamitron> :)
[02:38] <HazRPG> ali1234: that video link you sent only just started to play >_<
[02:38] <ali1234> well download it then it's html5
[02:38] <ali1234> it's about 45 minutes long
[02:38]  * hamitron gave up on it
[02:38] <ali1234> get decent internet
[02:38] <HazRPG> ali1234: ah no I mean its been streaming this whole time (uses chrome remember)
[02:39] <ali1234> and proper computers
[02:39] <ali1234> geez
[02:39] <shauno> the trick was oss was just to have a sensible card :)  sblive or sb16.
[02:39] <hamitron> lol ali1234
[02:39] <HazRPG> hamitron: wine is amazing now ;D - I finished portal 2 in wine ;)
[02:40] <hamitron> shauno: sblive was out?
[02:40] <hamitron> :-o
[02:40] <HazRPG> ali1234: I have as fast as I can for my area, and that's 10Mbps
[02:40] <shauno> sblive is pretty ancient.  I got one with the first PC I had that didn't have an isa bus (which was the end of my sb16)
[02:40] <HazRPG> ali1234: I think its because my laptop is still flickering in the background trying to install 11.04
[02:41] <hamitron> oh, my first linux pc had no pci
[02:41] <hamitron> :/
[02:41] <shauno> heh, ditto.  but I did upgrade eventually :p
[02:41] <hamitron> my biggest problem was my serial mouse
[02:41] <ali1234> my first linux pc didn't even have eisa
[02:42] <shauno> mid-90s my PC was pretty shocking, because I did all my gaming on the miggy, so really saw no point in upgrading the PC
[02:42] <hamitron> com1 was called com2 for some reason.... iirc, there was some onboard modem
[02:42] <shauno> so I had a 386sx16 well into 96-97
[02:42] <hamitron> my first was P120
[02:42] <hamitron> :)
[02:42] <ali1234> haha yeah remember the fun of getting your modem working on linux?
[02:43] <shauno> never had a problem with that, at all
[02:43] <hamitron> I bought a proper modem
[02:43] <hamitron> ;)
[02:43] <ali1234> first you have to figure out which com port it is on
[02:43] <ali1234> then write the ppp scripts yourself
[02:43] <shauno> you buy a modem.  not a soundcard.  sorted.
[02:43] <hamitron> yeh
[02:43] <hamitron> ali1234: but it was fun!!!!!!!!!
[02:43] <shauno> internal modem = soundcard on drugs
[02:43] <ali1234> then every time you want to go online you had to open a shell, login as root, and run pppd by hand
[02:43] <hamitron> yep
[02:43] <shauno> wvdial :)
[02:44] <hamitron> and then I found diald
[02:44] <ali1234> and then after it connected, set the ip and dns servers manually, because ppp didn't support msdns back then
[02:44] <hamitron> to automate it
[02:44] <hamitron> and I ended up with a huge phone bill :/
[02:44] <shauno> we did freeserve's 15 quid a month thing
[02:44] <shauno> so they disconnected you every two hours, but you didnt' pay per-minute
[02:45] <hamitron> my phone bill was £580 something for a quarter :/
[02:45] <HazRPG> hamitron: ouch >_<
[02:45] <shauno> (they didn't intentionally disconnect you on the 'free' plan, because they got to milk the per-minute that way)
[02:45] <hamitron> I lost the use of the phone line for a while
[02:45] <hamitron> shauno: they didn't have the 15 quid at first iirc
[02:46] <shauno> I didn't get online till 98/99
[02:46] <hamitron> ah, I got online about 4 months before freeserve started
[02:46] <hamitron> then switched to them to save the monthly payment
[02:46] <hamitron> :)
[02:47] <shauno> didn't get online until I started college.  couldn't justify it to the parents before that :)
[02:47] <hamitron> I was allowed 1 hour per week
[02:47] <hamitron> :D
[02:48] <shauno> but once I started college, getting the internet at home was the only way I'd leave the college library before they closed
[02:48] <hamitron> hehe
[02:48] <hamitron> the firewall in linux was a hassle as well, just remembered
[02:48] <hamitron> :/
[02:49] <hamitron> until ipchains appeared anyway
[02:49] <shauno> never really used the firewall
[02:49] <shauno> tried bastile a few times later on, but never really firewalled on dialup
[02:50] <shauno> never seemed any point to it on dialup.  connection was so slow that if you came under any form of attack, the line dropped dead
[02:50] <hamitron> I didn't get into firewalling until free calls on dialup, but then I was disconnected too often, and always had trouble with the Ip changing
[02:50] <hamitron> :)
[02:51] <hamitron> and been a newb, had no clue where to start
[02:51] <hamitron> had to just mod the script by hand each time
[02:51] <hamitron> :/
[02:51] <shauno> I tried bastille a few times when I was admining on opennap networks, but all it seemed to do was drop icmp
[02:51] <shauno> I'd still drop off line at the slightest sneeze
[02:51] <hamitron> :\
[02:52] <shauno> when you're on 56k, ddos really doesn't need two D's :p
[02:52] <hamitron> fun times! :D
[02:52] <hamitron> hehe
[02:52] <hamitron> yeh
[02:52] <hamitron> I remember really wanting 64k isdn :/
[02:53] <hamitron> but line cost too much
[02:53] <shauno> used to work for a guy who had two 128k lines bonded
[02:53] <hamitron> isdn on linux was not so easy either
[02:53] <shauno> scary thing is, that was 2004-5.  he was just very rural
[02:53] <hamitron> hehe
[02:54] <hamitron> tbh
[02:54] <hamitron> dialup is more reliable imo
[02:54] <shauno> eh
[02:54] <shauno> noo, that's just crazy talk.  imo :p
[02:54] <hamitron> haha
[02:54] <HazRPG> wait, did you just say dialup was reliable!?
[02:55] <HazRPG> *falls over in laughter*
[02:55] <hamitron> when i switched to demon internet, stayed online fine for 6 hours each night
[02:55] <shauno> we used to have that voicemail thing that BT offered, that was hosted at their end, rather than having a box with a tape at your end
[02:55] <HazRPG> shauno: heh, we had that too
[02:55] <shauno> it let you know you had a message waiting by pulsing the dialtone, instead of having a constant dialtone
[02:55] <HazRPG> shauno: just because I was online all the time xD
[02:56] <shauno> so freeserve would disconnect us every 2 hours, like clockwork
[02:56] <HazRPG> shauno: same xD
[02:56] <shauno> then the modem would fail to find the dialtone because someone had left a message.  so I had to go downstairs, listen to the message, then go back and redial
[02:56] <hamitron> them cutoffs were a pain with "large" downloads :/
[02:57] <HazRPG> hamitron: download managers \o/
[02:57] <shauno> the modems actually limit how many times you can unsuccessfully redial the same number.  they have to in the UK, to earn the green dot mark
[02:57] <shauno> so if you fell asleep with the internet connected, and someone left a message, the modem would blacklist the isp's number after x many failed redials
[02:57] <hamitron> HazRPG: I was young and learning
[02:58] <HazRPG> hamitron: so was I!
[02:58] <shauno> dialup was pants.  not even rose-tinted glasses can hide that one.
[02:58] <hamitron> you can't have known about download managers at first?
[02:58] <HazRPG> hamitron: I'm only 24 dude :P
[02:58] <HazRPG> hamitron: I use to beg my dad to get me computer magazines every month or so
[02:59] <HazRPG> hamitron: came on a CD one time
[02:59] <HazRPG> along with a web crawler!
[02:59] <hamitron> ah :)
[02:59] <shauno> wget will resume from most sensible hosts quite nicely.
[02:59] <hamitron> my early days were on win95
[02:59] <hamitron> :/
[02:59] <shauno> -c -N -t 0 -T 60 seemed to survive redials
[02:59] <HazRPG> web crawler was my demise on the internet >_< cos all my questions could be asked and answers be had... after being online for several hours at a time
[03:00] <shauno> never had 95. had 3.1, and then skipped windows entirely until XP
[03:00] <shauno> never saw a point to it.  my amiga gamed better than most my PCs
[03:00] <hamitron> it was the download "manager" in IE 3 I recall
[03:01] <hamitron> oh, I had sega rally
[03:01] <hamitron> :)
[03:01] <shauno> eg, dune2 in dos, wanted some stupid amount of base ram
[03:01] <hamitron> yeh
[03:01] <shauno> I could never seem to get the mouse _and_ the sound working at the same time, without using too much ram
[03:02] <hamitron> I remember having to make sure my autoexec.bat didn't have too much in :/
[03:02] <shauno> worked fine on my amiga :)
[03:02] <shauno> despite the PC having 8 times as much ram
[03:02] <hamitron> conventional memory?
[03:02] <shauno> no, 4 .. had the 500+
[03:03] <shauno> no, you can't change the base ram :(
[03:03] <hamitron> my first pc didn't have the himem.sys loaded to use memory above 640k in dos
[03:03] <hamitron> that stumped me for ages
[03:03] <shauno> that aperture between 640 and 720 is completely unavoidable
[03:04] <shauno> it's crazy stuff like that, which is why the bios needs to die :p
[03:04] <HazRPG> ali1234: that video is interesting btw
[03:04] <hamitron> haha
[03:04] <hamitron> Apple <3 ;/
[03:04] <shauno> I think efi is intel's baby
[03:04] <hamitron> tbh, most old stuff is broken now, so may was well dump it
[03:04] <HazRPG> efi is intel's baby xD
[03:05] <HazRPG> which is why it baffles me that their motherboards don't use it as standard yet :S
[03:05] <hamitron> I'd like to see native 3d acceleration in an emulated environment in the new systems
[03:05] <shauno> seems to be a recurring theme on the macs.  most the crazy things are implementations of things intel have come up with, and everyone else has been slow to adopt
[03:06] <hamitron> well, I've gone USB 3.0
[03:06] <hamitron> ;/
[03:06] <hamitron> not doing that other thing
[03:06] <HazRPG> shauno: ppc was IBM though wasn't it?
[03:06] <shauno> I'm waiting to get my hands on a tb drive enclosure :D
[03:06] <shauno> and moto
[03:07] <hamitron> I just feel USB 3.0 will be more popular
[03:07] <shauno> it probably will
[03:07] <hamitron> not as good ofc
[03:07] <shauno> it's basically going to be usb vs firewire all over again
[03:08] <shauno> you have usb to run the cheap plastic toys you're buying from china
[03:08] <shauno> and firewire for grown-up applications that actually need to use the bus properly
[03:09] <hamitron> esata I think could be the main problem for USB 3.0
[03:09] <HazRPG> can't believe how long its taking to do an upgrade to 11.04 T_T
[03:09] <shauno> esata's too specific
[03:10] <hamitron> most things that need the extra usb speed can use it though?
[03:10] <hamitron> for most people
[03:10] <shauno> the whole reason usb thrives is because you can plug pretty much anything into it
[03:10] <ali1234> how do i get apps running in vnc or xephyr to show a menu bar?
[03:10] <shauno> you can stick monitors on usb.  with 3, you could actually stick half-decent monitors on usb
[03:11] <hamitron> does USB 3.0 support USB 1.1?
[03:11] <shauno> it should do
[03:11] <hamitron> I've only read 2.0
[03:11] <HazRPG> ali1234: am I right in thinking that intel want to actually finally change X.org ?
[03:11] <hamitron> but that may be because they've forgotten about 1.1
[03:11] <hamitron> :)
[03:11] <shauno> heh, they can't forget about 1.1
[03:11] <ali1234> i dunno
[03:12] <shauno> most keyboards & mice use 1.1.  if you just stop supporting people's keyboards, they'll notice
[03:12] <hamitron> shauno: guess so
[03:12] <hamitron> shauno: my reason for thinking is, will they just replace all USB 2.0 ports with 3.0?
[03:12] <shauno> it's not like it's just some random junk tech from the 80s that sensible people don't use anymore
[03:13] <shauno> my understanding is that it's been designed specifically to allow that, yes
[03:13] <hamitron> 80s junk tech? ;/
[03:13] <shauno> I mean they can't just ignore 1.1 because <0.1% of users actually use it
[03:14] <hamitron> hmmm, dunno
[03:14] <shauno> because most keyboards use it, the userbase is suprisingly high
[03:14] <hamitron> IT industry seems happy to break something for < 5% of users
[03:14] <shauno> yes
[03:14] <shauno> and they should be
[03:15] <shauno> else we'd all be using 486's still because they'd be too scared to add pentium instructions
[03:15] <hamitron> I seem to always be in that minority ;/
[03:15] <shauno> what I'm saying is, usb1.1 is not a minority, at all
[03:15] <hamitron> yeh, so it makes sense
[03:16] <hamitron> I am just hoping I can get a fast usb 3.0 device, that is bootable
[03:16] <hamitron> :D
[03:16] <hamitron> or a few
[03:16] <hamitron> remove all the hdd from my comp, when I get a small case
[03:16] <HazRPG> woo! finally upgrade, god help me this boots successfully when it restarts
[03:16] <HazRPG> upgraded*
[03:17] <HazRPG> ah, holy cow it works
[03:18] <HazRPG> although my existing UI theme fails
[03:18] <HazRPG> and dropbox
[03:19] <HazRPG> ooo no, that's just way too confusing
[03:19] <HazRPG> *tries to figure out where my minimized application disappeared to*
[03:20] <HazRPG> also, why does the global menu just hide away until you hover over it :S
[03:21] <exobuzz> ubuntu natty (final) for the o2 joggler http://joggler.exotica.org.uk/ubuntu/
[03:21] <shauno> because the person who designed the global menu, has never used a global menu
[03:21] <exobuzz> including xbmc/squeezeplay and vaapi enabled mplayer
[03:21] <shauno> (may or may not be true, but is the only sensible reason I can think of :)
[03:22] <HazRPG> ooo wow, I must say the extra screen-real-estate is a bonus though for maximized stuff
[03:22] <exobuzz> the global menu is really handy on a small window at the bottom right of the screen on 1920x1080 display. great to get all the extra exercise with my mouse hand
[03:22] <HazRPG> now that I like
[03:22] <ali1234> ha ha apport is now popping up an error saying "please don't report bugs without going through tech support"
[03:22] <ali1234> there's an option that says "yes tech support refered me here"
[03:22] <HazRPG> however I wish the menu bar was still there and did that only when you fullscreened
[03:22] <shauno> that's awesome.  one of my gripes with ubuntu is it feels like there is no support anymore
[03:22] <ali1234> unfortunately there's no option that says "i asked tech support but my question was ignored or nobody new the answer"
[03:23] <exobuzz> i have no global menu enabled now. ubuntu classic all the way. and if they remove ubuntu classic, ill go back to linux mint again
[03:23] <shauno> no-one wants to help you fix things.  they just want you to file a bug and leave them alone
[03:23] <ali1234> now they don't even want you to file a bug
[03:24] <shauno> it's a silly gripe, but I really don't like the icon top-right
[03:24] <HazRPG> exobuzz: ubuntu classic is being taken out in 11.10 according to mark shuttleworth... he posted on a bug about that
[03:24] <shauno> that symbol is actually part of a standard.  it specifically means standby.  an off state that consumes a lot less power, but >0 power.
[03:24] <exobuzz> yeh. so i read. nice
[03:24] <exobuzz> force the user . remove their choice heh
[03:26] <HazRPG> exobuzz: and here was me thinking linux was about choice xD
[03:26] <shauno> the zero means off, the 1 means on, 1 inside a zero means on/off, and a zero broken by the one means standby.  it's an IEEE standard.  not a fun icon to stick settings behind.
[03:26] <exobuzz> HazRPG, ubuntu wants to be the next apple ;-)
[03:26] <HazRPG> exobuzz: I can understand WHY they want to get rid of choice (ubuntu one market place, etc... they won't get software developers in, if things are tightened down) but still silly things like classic should remain at least
[03:26] <exobuzz> they are removing right mouse button support in the next release too ;-)
[03:27] <shauno> 1998 troll is fail :p
[03:27] <HazRPG> s/if things are/if things aren't/
[03:27] <HazRPG> exobuzz: what!?
[03:27] <HazRPG> shauno: 1998 troll?
[03:28] <shauno> the right click thing. prehistoric troll :)
[03:28] <HazRPG> shauno: trust me, that top-right system pref. thing is annoying too
[03:28] <shauno> I don't mind it being there.  I mind it being behind an icon that means something else.
[03:28] <HazRPG> I like right-click though :(
[03:28] <exobuzz> shauno, it was more of a joke than a troll, but it does look like ubuntu is taking a few ideas from a certain fruity vendor
[03:28] <shauno> exobuzz: for sure
[03:28] <exobuzz> HazRPG, it was a joke
[03:29] <HazRPG> shauno: hmm, its not behind anything else... its actually INSIDE the power icon... which is daft
[03:29] <shauno> if I was mark, I'd buy the design team all macs so they could see how the things they're trying to copy are meant to work
[03:29] <exobuzz> yeh. i mean (yes im about to say something nice about apple), they at least implement this stuff properly.
[03:30] <shauno> I've only tried unity-2d, but it felt like they're trying to copy osx from screenshots
[03:30] <exobuzz> hehe
[03:30] <exobuzz> this channel is ubuntu-gripe. we will all be banned tomorrow ;-)
[03:30] <HazRPG> okay, broken software... dropbox is notifying me that its downloading stuff... but the icon isn't there, hasn't been there since boot... that's just weird
[03:30] <shauno> I absolutely hate unity's global menu bar.  I've been using osx for 5 years, so this isn't a "global menu bar is change, I don't like change".  it's seriously messed up
[03:31] <shauno> I don't like that it disappears; it means when I want to use it, I've no idea where I'm moving the mouse to
[03:31] <shauno> I'm not aiming for the 'file' menu, I'm just waving in it's general direction to find out where the file menu is
[03:32] <exobuzz> shauno, sorry , but i have to disagree here. you are meant to remember where all your menu options are. computing shouldnt be too easy!
[03:32] <HazRPG> global menu bar just means "extra wrist exercise" right?
[03:32] <exobuzz> HazRPG, yeh and that wrist is overworked as it is ;-)
[03:32] <shauno> I don't like that it covers the app's name.  I don't like that it only partially covers the apps name.  I don't like that whether it fully covers the app's name or not depends whether the window is maximised :/
[03:33] <exobuzz> shauno, http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/unity.png i like how they know i had bad eyesight so give me massive icons in the middle of my screen.
[03:33] <ali1234> the best bit about global menu is when unity craps out and just draws a black bar
[03:34] <ali1234> and you have to guess where the menu is
[03:34] <shauno> I don't like that moving the mouse from one submenu to another momentarily changes focus to something else, so that highlights in the active window bounce between the "I'm the active window" color and the "I'm not the active window" color
[03:34] <exobuzz> shauno, and on a 800x480 device, the icons actually are the same res, and dont fit on the screen
[03:34] <HazRPG> exobuzz: *sigh* the connotations implied in that are just wrong, but I'll ignore that and say... I already have RSI from using my computer too much as it is... I don't need another excuse to be zipping my mouse across two screens
[03:34] <exobuzz> HazRPG, i was referring to myself :)
[03:35] <HazRPG> exobuzz: xD
[03:35] <shauno> the dropbox icon is because it's trying to put an icon in the gnome notification area, which isn't there anymore
[03:35] <HazRPG> you know what, you've just gave me a shocking and disturbing thought... crap what is this going to be like when I try this on my dual-screen setup, its all fun and games on my laptop, but if I were to install this on my PC... wow, this is going to sting!
[03:35] <exobuzz> from using a mouse for 20 years of course
[03:36] <HazRPG> exobuzz: of course xD
[03:36] <exobuzz> i like ubuntu classic anyway.
[03:36] <HazRPG> exobuzz: haha, just read your comment and saw your screenshot xD
[03:37] <exobuzz> make the panels how i like and all is well
[03:37] <HazRPG> xD I think I just woke my sister up from laughing too hard
[03:37] <shauno> I've been using gnome-shell this evening.  it's not too bad, I think
[03:37] <ali1234> bug 774586
[03:37] <hamitron> :))
[03:37] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 774586 in appmenu-gtk (Ubuntu) "Applications have no menu when run in a nested X session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774586
[03:37] <HazRPG> exobuzz: also, you need to restart apparently (see's red power icon)
[03:38] <shauno> I think I'd like it if I could use a multitouch gesture instead of the hot-corner, but other than that, it makes a surprising amount of sense
[03:38] <exobuzz> HazRPG, yeh it was from some days/weeks ago that
[03:38] <shauno> surprising because usually the gnome guys are more attached to what works in theory, than what works in practice
[03:39] <exobuzz> shauno, used easystroke btw (unrelated to my previous comments about rsi) :)
[03:39] <exobuzz> nice on touchscreens
[03:39] <HazRPG> shauno: i must agree, from what I've seen of gnome-shell... I'll most likely be using it more in the coming months/years probably
[03:39] <shauno> I barely have the trackpad working atm :/
[03:40] <shauno> there's so much hardware support missing on my new laptop that it really feels just like trying to get a distro going in 1998 again
[03:40] <hamitron> my trackpad isn't upto much :)
[03:40] <hamitron> :/
[03:40] <HazRPG> apparently getting the Unity3D bar to appear is like fighting with the edge of the screen... fun
[03:41] <hamitron> I think ubuntu should do a google, and add "beta" onto the end of all their none-lts
[03:41] <shauno> ooh, just noticed the missus has gone to bed, so I can go watch dr who now
[03:41] <HazRPG> if I recall, weren't they making a "ubuntu tour" thing? Or was that just troll-warez
[03:42] <HazRPG> shauno: your misses hates doctor who!?
[03:42] <exobuzz> shauno, i bought a laptop with ati gfx and o2 micro card reader in 1995. that was fun on linux. the o2 micro card reader remains unsupported to this day :) the open source ati drivers are ok now, but the proprietory ones dropped support for my card even before they worked properly
[03:42] <hamitron> more to the point.... tell her she will watch and accept it
[03:42] <hamitron> ;/
[03:42] <shauno> naw, she hasn't seen last week's yet, so I didn't think it was fair to put this week's on while she was still downstairs
[03:42] <hamitron> ah, ok :)
[03:43] <hamitron> you should watch last weeks with her then
[03:43] <hamitron> ;/
[03:43] <exobuzz> shauno, btw, as an amiga user. do you hang  out on english amiga board or ?
[03:43] <HazRPG> hmm, how hard would it be to install natty to my pc but keep my existing grub and self-contain natty?
[03:43] <shauno> amoga.org
[03:43] <shauno> ugh
[03:43] <shauno> can't type and walk, but you know what I mean
[03:43] <shauno> *Amiga.org
[03:43] <exobuzz> amiga.org ? ok.. yeh i know it
[03:43] <exobuzz> not as bad as amigaworld.net but :)
[03:43] <hamitron> HazRPG: erm, doesn't it give the option to leave the bootloader?
[03:44] <shauno> the alternate asked me where I wanted to put it
[03:44] <HazRPG> hamitron: I'm not sure, does it?
[03:44] <hamitron> alt cd ftw
[03:44] <shauno> if you put it on ubuntu's partition instead of the mbr, life will be much sane
[03:44] <hamitron> back to this again
[03:45] <hamitron> :)
[03:45] <exobuzz> shauno, whats your forum handle ?
[03:45] <HazRPG> so if I split a hdd up so place natty on, keep the old grub, and then somehow add natty to the existing grub...
[03:45] <HazRPG> this sounds like a challenge I think :)
[03:45] <shauno> you could even be really clever, and add a menuentry to your existing conf, which switches root to the natty disk, and does configfile (root)/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[03:45] <hamitron> HazRPG: need to just chainload it
[03:45] <HazRPG> I have the urge to play with natty on my PC and see how much I can ... err... review... about it
[03:46] <hamitron> I think
[03:46] <shauno> exobuzz: just Shaun, but I don't talk there much.  just gives me something to read at work :)
[03:46] <exobuzz> :
[03:46] <exobuzz> :) even
[03:46] <ball> I've not had good luck with Natty so far.
[03:46] <hamitron> shauno's way sounds more cool
[03:46] <hamitron> :)
[03:46] <exobuzz> shauno, aah yeh found you :)
[03:47] <shauno> been playing with grub-efi for a couple of days now.  I understand grub2 a lot more than I want to  :(
[03:47] <HazRPG> shauno: ah wait, I think I've done that before on my pendrive! I actually know what that is!
[03:47] <exobuzz> 7 posts in 4 years heh
[03:47] <shauno> that sounds about right
[03:47] <ball> Tried upgrading fork's Xubuntu box to 11.4 and bricked it.
[03:47] <HazRPG> ball: join the club xD
[03:47] <ball> ...then tried a clean install of Xubuntu 11.4...and it failed.
[03:47] <ball> ...now downloading Edubuntu 11.4
[03:47] <ball> If that doesn't work I may roll back to 10.10
[03:48] <shauno> HazRPG: what I'd do, is create a file on my natty partition, called /boot/natty
[03:48] <hamitron> this is as smooth as a debian dist-upgrade
[03:48] <hamitron> ;/
[03:48] <shauno> then search -f --set /boot/natty root
[03:48] <shauno> configfile /boot/grub/grub.cfg
[03:48] <shauno> easy at that.  then hitting that menuentry will load up natty's config, so it stays up to date with kernel updates
[03:49] <shauno> if the configfile contains menuentries (which it will, that way), it'll repopulate the menu immediately
[03:50] <HazRPG> ball: its taken me 9hrs and several installs and liveCD tests and messing around to get 11.04 working - slight exaggeration, but I did start in the evening and only *just* got it working an hr ago T_T
[03:50] <HazRPG> ball: how is fork btw? Been a while since I've seen you around.
[03:51] <ball> HazRPG: She's good! We wore her out today with some gardening and walking around the garden centre
[03:51] <shauno> battery's estimating 9hrs13 mins.  it's nice to be 'home' :)
[03:52] <shauno> reminds me, while I've a sensible OS loaded, I should try to rebuild my grub-efi with ext4, so I can see if I can get that to boot natty
[03:52] <hamitron> time for sleep for me
[03:53] <hamitron> nn all ;)
[03:54] <HazRPG> ball: heh aww
[03:54] <HazRPG> ball: bless :)
[03:55] <ball> Now I just have to fix her PC.
[03:56] <HazRPG> ball: 10.10 ftw if all else fails
[03:56] <HazRPG> or even 10.04 if needs be
[03:58] <shauno> awesome, the dvr didn't catch the last 5 minutes of the previous show \o/
[03:58] <shauno> (this means I stand a much higher chance of having the last few minutes of this show   lol)
[03:59] <HazRPG> hmm, too much inconsistency with 11.04
[04:00] <HazRPG> shauno: iplayer \o/
[04:00] <HazRPG> vpn for uk ip \o/
[04:00] <shauno> prefer to get it off the cable if I can.  iplayer isn't meant for 40" screens
[04:01] <shauno> don't need vpn, my vps is in london :)
[04:01] <shauno> it does get-iplayer --pvr on cron, and dumps the output in my dropbox :)
[04:02] <shauno> get-iplayer nukes files after a few weeks by default, which suits me just fine.  keeps the dropbox tidy
[04:05] <HazRPG> heh nice
[04:07] <HazRPG> heh if it wasn't for all the talk of dr.who, I probably would have forgotten to grab the newest episode
[04:16] <ball> Time to go and check on my download.
[04:17] <shauno> Wonder how long I should stare at a blank screen before admitting I still haven't figured it out
[04:18] <exobuzz> xbmc + iplayer plugin works well here (especially with the 3200kbit streams)
[04:19] <shauno> Streaming gets a bit dodgy here. non-uk ip :/
[04:19] <exobuzz> just proxy the handshake and you dont need to vpn
[04:19] <exobuzz> ie. you ened to proxy the intial xml handshake with the bbc. the cdn are not geolocked for the actual streams
[04:20] <shauno> should probably try that some day
[04:20] <exobuzz> (at least not for the ondemand streams)
[04:21] <exobuzz> i maintain the iplayer plugin for xbmc so have spent a lot of time messing with this stuff
[04:21] <shauno> if the handshake bit is on a different netblock, I can just give that a different route
[04:22] <exobuzz> yeh. so just vpn the bbc bit to get the auth code.
[04:23] <exobuzz> 212.58.224.0 - 212.58.255.255 (bbcs range)
[04:30] <HazRPG> heh, I shall remember that should I ever move! xD
[04:31] <shauno> bit quiet tonight
[04:32] <HazRPG> okay, so that episode of dr.who was a bit random O.o
[04:32] <HazRPG> I think I might have to watch this again...
[04:33] <HazRPG> I think I've just forgotten the plot already :S
[04:40] <HazRPG> okay, so how did I forget that intro to the episode :S
[04:42] <shauno> the whole pregnancy bit just confused me.  did she do the doctor?
[04:43]  * ball hasn't seen any of the Eleventh Doctor episodes yet.
[04:43] <shauno> I wonder if glimmerblocker would work on ubuntu.  the daemon half is just java
[04:44] <ball> What's a glimmer?
[04:45] <shauno> a http proxy for ad-filtering
[04:45] <shauno> (and a few other transforms I've added)
[04:47] <shauno> it's meant to be for osx, but since the meat is java, it might work
[05:02] <HazRPG> I don't see why it wouldn't, unless it uses osx specific stuff
[05:03] <shauno> well the config ui is kinda specific, but the daemon itself should be fairly sane
[05:03] <shauno> also, I discovered tnt rocks for fighting forrest fires :)
[05:04] <HazRPG> heh
[05:05] <HazRPG> thought you were going off to watch dr.who xD
[05:05] <shauno> I did
[05:05] <HazRPG> ah
[05:05] <shauno> that was 90 minutes ago :)
[05:06] <shauno> 5am and I've decided I need to build a flooded-farm.  bah.
[05:08] <HazRPG> rofl is that what your current project is?
[05:09] <shauno> don't really have a project atm :/
[05:10] <shauno> tried to go exploring.  found a new island, and accidentally burnt it down
[05:13] <HazRPG> ah
[05:13] <HazRPG> wow, I'm so glad I watched this again
[05:13] <HazRPG> some of this episode is jumbled around like big time!
[05:29] <shauno> google reader really needs a killfile
[05:30] <HazRPG> lol a what?
[05:30] <shauno> I want to be able to nuke things based on pattern
[05:30] <HazRPG> ah
[05:31] <shauno> eg, hackernews minus any headline that contains 'bitcoin'
[05:32] <HazRPG> lol why?
[05:32] <shauno> because I'm sick of reading about bitcoin?
[05:32] <HazRPG> I wish I knew what that was... also why read it then? Just scroll past ;P
[05:33] <shauno> I do, pretty much.  but because I just keep hitting j, I still have to page past them
[05:34] <HazRPG> ah
[05:36] <HazRPG> just noticed there's no labs either, bah  that's stupid
[05:37] <HazRPG> however, there is a search bar
[05:37] <HazRPG> could you not minus the title out in that?
[05:38] <shauno> dunno, I don't use the web page because it's worse :)
[05:38] <HazRPG> seems the search bar can be used to minus out headlines xD
[05:38] <HazRPG> I just used: -"ubuntu"
[05:38] <HazRPG> and it showed everything minus ubuntu
[05:39] <HazRPG> wait, if you don't use the web page, then what do you use?
[05:39] <shauno> I use reeder
[05:40] <HazRPG> osx app?
[05:40] <HazRPG> ah wait, no that wasn't a misspelling
[05:41] <HazRPG> I was going to say make a plugin, but I doubt you can do that with that app
[05:41] <HazRPG> Liferea ftw \o/
[05:43] <HazRPG> right bed time for me, early (ish) start for me today
[05:43] <HazRPG> think I've had enough of 11.04 for one day
[05:43] <shauno> you lasted longer than I did :)
[05:43] <HazRPG> heh
[05:44] <HazRPG> its terrible, but I do believe they can still rectify some parts of it for 11.10 maybe
[05:44] <shauno> gotta get ndiswrapper working next, but I want to get my trackpad sorted out first so I can actually use the UI
[05:44] <HazRPG> (or just install gnome-shell xD)
[05:45] <shauno> gnome-shell's what I've been working with
[05:46] <HazRPG> gnome-shell on 11.04? Or gnome-shell on something else?
[05:46] <shauno> on natty, yeah
[05:46] <HazRPG> might have to try that out on my laptop
[05:46] <HazRPG> ndiswrapper is the wifi stuff isn't it :S?
[05:47] <shauno> it is.  which is why it's on the todo list :/
[05:47] <HazRPG> (too lazy to re-open browser cos I don't really want to open up 30 tabs again)
[05:47] <HazRPG> ah
[05:47] <shauno> need ndis for the wifi, the trackpad because it's a freaking UI, and grub-efi so I can disable the ati card
[05:47] <HazRPG> laptop without wifi, kinda renders them stupid really
[05:48] <shauno> the wifi's the easy bit, I had it working in beta2 :)
[05:48] <HazRPG> trackpad and grub stuff sounds like more of a challenge
[05:49] <shauno> grub's still being a monumental pain in the rear
[05:49] <HazRPG> it always has been ^_^
[05:49] <HazRPG> useful when it works, pain when it doesn't
[05:50] <shauno> well, to be fair, it's not actually grub that's getting in the way atm.  it's the videomodes for the framebuffer
[05:51] <HazRPG> weird
[05:51] <shauno> trying to figure out how to switch to the intel gpu before I start the kernel
[05:51] <HazRPG> right, really must dash, long long day ahead of me... dealing with paperwork and govern. related stuff can be a pain sometimes
[05:52] <shauno> I have figured out how to switch the ati off from grub.  haven't found the right values to switch to the intel.  so I end up with no gpu   lol
[05:52] <HazRPG> heh
[05:52] <HazRPG> guessing ATI stuff is being a ... at the moment
[05:52] <shauno> I just don't want the ati card running because it sucks the battery dry
[05:52] <HazRPG> ah
[05:53] <HazRPG> well that makes sense really
[05:53] <HazRPG> can that not be switched out OS-side?
[05:53] <shauno> there's nothing under linux that needs it, so if I turn it off I'll run cooler, quieter, for longer
[05:54] <shauno> so far, no.  I lose video when the kernel switches from the efi-vga framebuffer to the radeon framebuffer
[05:54] <HazRPG> cos if you can, you could make a script that runs on startup to do that for you
[05:54] <HazRPG> ah
[05:55] <shauno> I'm basically doing peek & poke from grub (inb and outb).  I really don't want to do that from upstart :)
[05:55] <HazRPG> shame
[05:55] <HazRPG> ah, heh, yeah that will be a nightmare
[05:55] <shauno> (and I still need to find the right values either way)
[05:56] <HazRPG> but that's just it, doesn't 10.10 work? Could you not work out the values from that?
[05:56] <shauno> 10.10 doesn't do gpu switching either
[05:57] <HazRPG> you'd think it would... cos of the new intel CPU chips
[05:57] <shauno> well, there's a catch
[05:57] <shauno> X is prehistoric :)
[05:57] <HazRPG> well yeah
[05:58] <HazRPG> from the sounds of that video ali1234 linked earlier, looks like intel are on that
[05:58] <shauno> for it to work in X, X has to be able to ...
[05:58] <shauno> a) mirror the display to two completely different cards
[05:58] <shauno> b) not <expletive> itself when the cards are hotplugged
[05:59] <HazRPG> true true
[05:59] <shauno> eg, the radeon driver has to gracefully handle the gpu being powered off
[06:00] <shauno> you've got dualhead - can you sleep one screen but not the other?
[06:00] <HazRPG> I can if I push the power off of one ;D
[06:01] <HazRPG> don't think I can normally though
[06:01] <shauno> heh
[06:01] <HazRPG> although, never really tried
[06:01] <shauno> as far as I can tell, that's all it's doing
[06:02] <HazRPG> well as far as I can see in the NVIDIA X Server Settings... I can turn off a monitor... but it saves to an X conf file and asks you to restart
[06:02] <HazRPG> so you can't do it on the fly
[06:02] <HazRPG> gotta remember though, my is dualhead on the same graphics card
[06:03] <shauno> ah
[06:03] <HazRPG> I'm sure it would <wrong-word> if it was on different cards
[06:03] <shauno> as far as I can tell, it's mirroring the display across two cards, then putting one of the two to sleep
[06:04] <shauno> so to switch displays, you wake up the card, poke the gmux to switch to that card as the source, then sleep the first card
[06:04] <HazRPG> guessing nothing in the logs shows anything unusual then
[06:05] <shauno> I get 5 seconds worth of kernel log, and then it dies :/
[06:05] <ball> I think I officially dislike Natty.
[06:05] <ball> (since it dislikes my hardware)
[06:05] <HazRPG> ball: not the only one, like I said I had a fight with it too
[06:06] <HazRPG> ball: shauno is still fighting with it, but I think his problem is more due to his hardware being too new
[06:06] <shauno> so I've figured out the gmux lives at offset 0x750.  after that, I've actually no idea what the values in the various addresses are :)
[06:06] <ball> This one has Intel 945, so nothing cutting-edge there.
[06:07] <HazRPG> ball: I had trouble with the P4 I have... and my laptop that I've finally managed to get running sort of smoothly is core 2 duo
[06:07] <shauno> well, more the problem .. I have no idea what the actual addresses are.  it's not like I've got an address the tells me which gpu.  I have a range of addresses that contain values, and I'm just poking different values into them until it breaks.  then rebooting, and trying different values
[06:07] <HazRPG> might have to faff with the P4 one some more when I get up, see if I can /attempt/ to get it online properly
[06:08] <ball> I just spent hours downloading Edubuntu and then burned it to a DVD.
[06:08] <ball> ...just like Ubuntu and Xubuntu, it doesn't work.
[06:08] <ball> (for me, on this box)
[06:08] <shauno> and the grub wiki is still down :(
[06:09] <HazRPG> shauno: is there not a mirror for that?
[06:09] <shauno> google's cache :)
[06:09] <HazRPG> shauno: xD
[06:09] <HazRPG> ball: what's the issue exactly? I've found you need to faff around with some config to get it up and running so far on my systems
[06:10] <HazRPG> worst thing is, I mess around with so much, I don't actually know which of the solutions I did actually fixed it >_<
[06:10] <jacobw> why would edubuntu work where x/ubuntu doesn't?
[06:10] <HazRPG> which is why I plan to mess around with it more when I wake up later
[06:10] <jacobw> ha, you need to track your issues :)
[06:10] <jacobw> or solutions, either one of those things :p
[06:10] <HazRPG> jacobw: normally I would, but I was just getting beyond frustrated with it lol
[06:11] <jacobw> computers do that to people
[06:11] <HazRPG> some wouldn't have messed around with it as much as I did though xD
[06:11] <ball> jacobw: It was wishful thinking, but it's for my daughter's PC so if it worked the educational content might have been helpful
[06:12] <ball> HazRPG: Blank screen, nothing happening.
[06:12] <HazRPG> they'd have seen "not working, oh well... *throws in bin*"
[06:12] <HazRPG> ball: after install, or is that the LiveCD/AltCD ?
[06:12] <jacobw> yeah, most people are suprisingly averse to problem solving
[06:12] <ball> HazRPG: LiveCD.  I don't get far enough to install it.
[06:13] <jacobw> what graphics card is in the machine?
[06:13] <HazRPG> jacobw: fear of the unknown, and the lack of motivation to find out why it won't work, and even less motivation as to how to fix it
[06:13] <ball> jacobw: Intel D945
[06:13] <HazRPG> ball: LiveCD too me half hr to boot up...
[06:13] <ball> (It's a D945GCLF mITX mainboard)
[06:13] <HazRPG> took*
[06:14] <HazRPG> ball: you'd have probably been better off trying with a Alt-disc
[06:14] <HazRPG> ball: that's how I got my semi-working on my stuff
[06:14] <HazRPG> s/my/mine*
[06:15] <jacobw> !ping
[06:15] <lubotu3`> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to respond to factoid requests. Call that job satisfaction? Because I don't.
[06:15] <ball> HazRPG: Is 10.10 more likely to work?
[06:15] <ball> !diodes
[06:16] <HazRPG> ball: hmm, I'm running 10.10 right now, and haven't had any issues with it at all
[06:16] <HazRPG> ball: what was running on it before?
[06:16] <ball> Xubuntu 10.10 I think.
[06:16] <HazRPG> ball: then yeah ^_^
[06:17] <ball> Might have been an 11.4 Beta
[06:17] <ball> I forget.  It has been a few days since I installed that.
[06:17] <HazRPG> ball: if your willing to give 11.04 another try... I'd recommend the Alt-CD of either ubuntu or xubuntu
[06:18] <HazRPG> since you get more sane results with it than the LiveCD
[06:18] <jacobw> ball: when do you get the blank screen? when X starts or before?
[06:18] <HazRPG> bah didn't want to open my 30 tab browser, but hang on
[06:19] <ball> jacobw: I got the screen where you choose a language and then choose whether to try it or install it.
[06:19] <HazRPG> ball: this is what I constantly got with all the LiveCD versions: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-tedGRcfQT4DIgUILLn1kQ?feat=directlink
[06:20] <HazRPG> ball: see that bit always loads up fine... its after you click "try" that conks out on me
[06:20] <ball> ...then a blank screen with no icons, no text
[06:20] <HazRPG> have a look at what I was greeted with
[06:21] <ball> Slightly different behaviour depending on the variant: Xubuntu loses sync on the monitor.  Ubuntu shows me a desktop with icons but immediately errors out.  Edubuntu goes to a black screen.
[06:21] <HazRPG> the screenshot doesn't do what I actually saw justice though, cos it would flicker like crazy - I'm so glad I'm not epileptic
[06:22] <HazRPG> if not, that would have been a bad time to find out >_<
[06:22] <jacobw> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=D945GCLF&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&fiel
[06:22] <ball> HazRPG: Sounds like you're having display issues too then.
[06:22] <jacobw> eurgh..
[06:23] <jacobw> sorry, i didn't realise how long that url was
[06:23] <HazRPG> ball: two ways I got it working on mine is either a) install 10.10, then upgrade to 11.04 OR b) grab the alt-CD and install that way
[06:23] <ball> It didn't seem like the 11.4 Beta 2 was out very long before they released 11.4
[06:23] <ball> ...was it released before it was ready?
[06:24] <jacobw> 2 weeks
[06:24] <HazRPG> I have a feeling it was, but who knows
[06:24] <HazRPG> some have pure success with it, but for some it just utterly falls apart on them
[06:25] <jacobw> i seem to be having pure sucess with it :)
[06:25] <HazRPG> well your not the only one, my old tutor is too
[06:25] <jacobw> ball: try debian on that box?
[06:25] <HazRPG> but for me, nothing but problems from the start
[06:26] <ball> jacobw: Will Debian suit a five-year-old girl?
[06:26] <HazRPG> jacobw: I reckon he should download the alt-cd first, and check his joys out with that first
[06:27] <jacobw> yeah, that's probably a better idea
[06:27] <ball> Is there any other (perhaps non-Ubuntu) Linux that might suit her?
[06:27] <jacobw> i hadn't realised that unity was probably the motivation for installing 11.04
[06:27] <HazRPG> cos at least that way he can try both an "upgrade" option using the alt-cd as a repo, or to just try and install pure from disc
[06:28] <HazRPG> jacobw: ah see I knew it was for a small girl ya see ^_^
[06:29] <MartijnVdS> \o
[06:29] <jacobw> o/
[06:29] <HazRPG> ball: if you want to try something new for her... and like the debian way of stuff, you could try out this one: http://www.qimo4kids.com/
[06:30] <ball> I don't really know what the Debian way of stuff is.
[06:30] <ball> ...but I'll try Qimo
[06:31] <HazRPG> ball: I haven't personally tested it out myself, but I had it downloaded for a few months - I visit the family in Egypt once a year... so I was going to see what it was like before I went over in a couple of weeks time for one of my lil cousins
[06:31] <jacobw> there's little between 'the ubuntu way' and 'the debian way' except that 'the debian way' is usually better documented
[06:32] <HazRPG> ball: well Qimo is ubuntu-based, but when I say "the debian way" I mean things like sudo, deb packages, etc
[06:32] <jacobw> i suppose on the educational front there *is* sugar.. i don't how feasible it is to use that on a small scale though
[06:32] <jacobw> this qimo stuff looks interesting
[06:36] <HazRPG> yeah, Qimo has spotted my eye for a few months now, and thought it would work great for some of my lil cousins
[06:39] <HazRPG> jacobw: oh, you mean sugar as in the pc for every kid thing?
[06:40] <jacobw> yeah
[06:41] <jacobw> one laptop per child
[06:41] <HazRPG> I always thought the interface for that looked too scary for a kid
[06:41] <HazRPG> http://www.sugarlabs.org/index.php?template=gallery&page=media_01
[06:41] <jacobw> perhaps it only looks scary to an adult? :p
[06:41] <jacobw> i don't know
[06:42] <HazRPG> maybe
[06:42] <HazRPG> this just looks more pleasing to the eye though: http://i1-linux.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Qimo-4-Kids_1.png
[06:43] <jacobw> it does look good
[06:44] <HazRPG> oh well, I really need to get some shut eye
[06:44] <shauno> should too, but I'm starting to think sticking a pizza in the oven is gonna be a better idea :)
[06:44] <HazRPG> ball: good luck with Qimo or (X)Ubuntu 11.04, hopefully child process 2.0 will like it either way ^_^
[06:45] <shauno> (I'm also thinking that sticking random values into efi addresses may not be a healthy thing, so trying to figure out how to query the current values from within osx)
[06:45] <HazRPG> heh
[06:45] <HazRPG> there must be a way to monitor it in osx
[06:45] <HazRPG> because surely osx flips between them seamlessly if I recall you saying
[06:46] <shauno> it does
[06:46] <HazRPG> should be a way to grab a debugger of some kind to print out the values
[06:46] <shauno> but it's all done via their api, I haven't tracked down where the switching is actually done
[06:47] <HazRPG> also, pizza ftw! \o/
[06:47] <HazRPG> planning on popping a few chicken sausages in the oven before bed ^_^
[06:47] <HazRPG> ball: let me know how you get on btw
[06:48] <HazRPG> shauno: I'll most likely speak to ya later on at some point
[06:48] <jacobw> chicked sausages?!
[06:48] <HazRPG> and to jacobw, catch ya later :)
[06:48] <jacobw> bye :)
[06:48] <HazRPG> jacobw: yeah, can't stand pig related stuff ^_^
[06:48] <HazRPG> even the smell puts me off
[06:49] <jacobw> i've seen them slaughered, its pretty disgusting.
[06:49] <HazRPG> so have I... think that's where the disgust started xD
[06:50] <HazRPG> anyways, food + sleep calls
[06:50] <HazRPG> night all \o
[06:51] <HazRPG> last note: everyone should try chicken sausages... they're so nice!!!
[06:51] <HazRPG> or beef!
[06:51] <HazRPG> beef sausages are good too :)
[06:51] <jacobw> night :)
[07:06] <shauno> the sunny side of an all-nighter is the wrong time to be looking at decompiles of kernel drivers :/  shall have to ask around 'n see if the source for this one can be otained
[07:14] <ball> Downloaded Qimo, trying that.
[08:27] <kvarley> Morning Ubuntu-ers
[08:28] <kvarley> Having difficulty with pulse audio and games...again. I have to run padsp everytime I want to play Unreal Tournament 2004. Is there not a way to set it to use pulse audio as the driver somehow? It would be of much use to me so I can use glc to record the game.
[08:33] <kvarley> Please ignore my previous message, I have since solved the problem
[08:35] <kvarley> Just in case somebody looks back on the chat with the same problem, I deleted the openal.so library from my ut2004/System folder and then made a symbolic link to the library which is installed from the repos. (sudo ln -s /usr/lib64/libopenal.so /path/to/ut2004/System/openal.so)
[08:55] <MooDoo> morning
[08:59] <kvarley> MooDoo: 0/
[09:00] <MooDoo> :)
[09:11] <czajkowski> Aloha
[09:11] <MooDoo> morning czajkowski :)
[09:12] <czajkowski> MooDoo: howdy
[09:20] <MooDoo> czajkowski: hows the back?
[09:25] <czajkowski> much better thanks
[09:29] <MooDoo> czajkowski: excellent
[09:38] <popey> morning
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> howdy popey
[09:42] <MooDoo> morning popey
[09:49] <daubers> Morning
[09:53] <mfraz74> any ideas what has happened to the countdowns at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/countdown ?
[09:53] <MartijnVdS> they hit 0 :)
[09:53] <MartijnVdS> the countdown is over
[09:54] <mfraz74> shouldn't they say 'it's here'?
[09:54] <mfraz74> banner1.png doesn't even exist any more
[09:56] <AlanBell> mfraz74: yes, it is an embarrasing cockup
[09:57] <mfraz74> AlanBell: only realised when it was still showing "coming soon" on my website
[10:14] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: fixed your sons pc?
[10:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nope.
[10:15] <daubers> TheOpenSourcerer: Whats wrong with it?
[10:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> The old UI works but no 3d effects work. Looks like it is suffering from bug 771788
[10:17] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 771788 in jockey (Ubuntu) "nVidia driver activated and apparently being used but reported as not being used by jockey-gtk" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771788
[10:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> Try and log in with Unity and you get nothing other than the wallpaer.
[10:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> The standard desktop has no effects enabled and trying to turn anything on through CCSM causes heaps of #fail.
[10:19] <popey> what video card is it?
[10:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> NV37GL [Quadro FX 330/GeForce PCX 5300]
[10:26] <gord> thanks for telling me its the 1st of the month all my mailing lists!
[10:26] <jibadeeha> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJykX4s9MtQ&feature=related   ... this is quicker than Windows XP on a normal PC
[10:35] <brobostigon> good morning everyone
[10:35] <MartijnVdS> hi brobostigon
[10:35] <brobostigon> goodmorning MartijnVdS :)
[10:36] <dwatkins> hiya
[10:36] <brobostigon> http://etbe.coker.com.au/2011/04/30/autism-awareness-free-software/    just found that on planet debian.
[10:36] <brobostigon> good morning dwatkins
[10:37] <popey> 7 tickets left for oggcamp :)
[10:37] <MooDoo> thought they were sold out?
[10:37] <MooDoo> well obviously not lol
[10:37] <popey> we released more
[10:37] <MooDoo> cool
[10:38] <popey> that speccy thing is faked sadly :(
[10:39] <MooDoo> think we all worked that one out :)
[10:39] <popey> well. no.
[10:39] <popey> its made to look like it was recorded on a spectrum
[10:39] <popey> but little things give it away
[10:39] <popey> like the R tape loading error should be at the bottom of the screen and should blat out the bottom two lines
[10:40] <popey> and when the colour comes in it should load in blocks not lines
[10:40] <popey> aaaanyway
[10:40] <MartijnVdS> popey: your inner geek is showing ;)
[10:41] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooi9rpx6ECM&NR=1
[10:41] <popey> even better
[10:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> OT but very funny speech from Obama taking a *big* dig at Trump. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mzJhvC-8E via AlanBell
[11:11] <JustMeDude> can someone pls help, upgraded to 11.04, tried compiz to get transparency back now when I log in I have no top bar or launcher
[14:20] <jonsaint> hi all. is it me or is this new release as slow as hell? previous version was very quick on my pc but this new one seems to be lagging somewhat plus when my screensaver kicks in, within a few minutes it locks up and takes ages to get back to the home screen!
[15:26] <livingdaylight> greetings
[15:27] <brobostigon> afternoonings livingdaylight
[15:28] <livingdaylight> I was looking for the 64-bit version; once dl-ed it appears as ubuntu-11.04-desktop-amd64.iso Is that good for my intel system too?
[15:28] <livingdaylight> brobostigon, hi
[15:29] <brobostigon> livingdaylight: as long as your intel system is also 64bit, yes.
[15:29] <livingdaylight> ok - thx. The amd bit threw me
[15:29] <brobostigon> :)
[16:01] <constrictor> does anyone use a thinkpad edge here
[16:04] <Azelphur> what's the proper way to do wifi range extension without having to switch between routers manually?
[16:16] <Ng> range extension?
[16:16] <Ng> like, multiple access points?
[16:17] <Azelphur> Ng: yea but I don't want to have to manually switch
[16:17] <popey> Ng: you do that at UDS don't you?
[16:17] <Azelphur> currently I have a setup where all routers have the same SSID, but my brother whines that his silly windows laptop always connects to the node with the least signal strength (yay windows)
[16:17] <Ng> popey: we sure do :)
[16:18] <popey> Azelphur: mac address filter him out of tha furthest ap?
[16:18] <Ng> heh
[16:18] <Azelphur> popey: and lock him in his bedroom and throw away the key? :P
[16:18]  * popey has ordered a GTX 460 \o/
[16:18] <Azelphur> THOU SHALL NOT USETH INTERNET IN THE FRONT ROOM.
[16:18] <Ng> one option would be to turn that AP's transmit power down so the ranges don't overlap so much, but ultimately in a multi-AP-single-ESSID world you are always going to be at the mercy of poor heuristics
[16:19] <Azelphur> Ng: yea, I'm after a better way of doing it, I don't mind buying some equipment to get it done
[16:19] <Azelphur> There's gig ethernet around most of the house too
[16:19] <popey> give your brother an ethernet cable for his birthday
[16:19] <Ng> hehe
[16:20] <Azelphur> ethernet cables for laptops \o/
[16:20] <Ng> I have both my APs on the same ESSID, except the lounge one also has a separate 5ghz essid for devices I explicitly want to clamp to that AP
[16:20] <knightwise> morning everyone
[16:20] <Azelphur> I just want a proper way to be able to free roam around the house, which will involve some kind of repeaters
[16:20] <dwatkins> Azelphur: ethernet over mains?
[16:21] <Azelphur> dwatkins: being plugged into an ethernet cable, clearly not free roaming.
[16:21] <dwatkins> Azelphur: sorry I meant could you use two wifi access points, one connected to an ethernet-over-power point?
[16:21] <Azelphur> dwatkins: late to the discussion I talked about this above
[16:21] <dwatkins> ah ok, I'll read
[16:22] <popey> hmm, i have two access points here, they have different ESSIDs
[16:22] <dwatkins> heh, I see
[16:23] <popey> maybe I should make them the same
[16:23] <dwatkins> wow, finally an advantage to living in a tiny one-bedroom flat :D ;)
[16:23] <popey> heh
[16:23] <popey> mind you, i upgraded to VM 30MB/s so I will be getting another AP soon
[16:23] <knightwise> hey everyone
[16:23] <knightwise> you guyz remember my podcast copy script right ?
[16:24] <knightwise> i'm perfectionising it to use dropbox so i can wirelessly sync to my ipad and ois devices too
[16:24] <knightwise> but have run into a pickle where there there is a problem with an rsync command
[16:24] <knightwise> i've posted the output http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1699708&page=2
[17:01] <dwatkins> how long has Unity been around? It looks like a great solution for some people, although I'm unsure how to turn it off again or get to synaptic.
[17:02] <brobostigon> http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2011/05/01/the-difference-between-iphone-and-android/  lol
[17:02] <dwatkins> it appears that X is hanging on this Macbook Pro, but I guess that's a separate issue
[17:02] <dwatkins> I like that blog, brobostigon :)
[17:02] <brobostigon> :)
[17:04] <dwatkins> I'm tempted to learn about writing apps for iPhone and/or Android as none of the speedometers I've tried look quite right.
[17:04] <dwatkins> it seems this Macbook Pro doesn't like someone typing 'b' after logging in... X totally hangs
[17:05] <brobostigon> :(
[17:05] <brobostigon> dwatkins: whats shows up in syslog and xorg log.
[17:05] <dwatkins> yeah, just had a look at the Xorg log, nothing was written to it; seems to do the same in chromium as in chrome, which is wierd. Perhaps it's network access that it hates.
[17:06] <brobostigon> weird.
[17:06] <dwatkins> yeah, seems to be chrome[ium] only
[17:06] <dwatkins> sorry, chrom[e|ium] ;)
[17:07] <brobostigon> hmmm.
[17:13] <popey> brobostigon: did you know all your posts double up on facebook?
[17:13] <popey> everything appears twice, once from gwibber, once from identi.ca
[17:13] <brobostigon> popey: i didnt know, no, weird. ah, ok,
[17:14] <brobostigon> i will stop gwibber posting to facebook, as identi.ca seems to be doing it.
[17:16] <brobostigon> popey: thankyou for bringing that to my attention.
[17:19] <dwatkins> aha, got it - the USB device ID was wrong in the xorg.conf.d entry
[17:23] <jacobw> i've just eaten a whole box of those 'french fancies' :|
[17:23] <dwatkins> now we just need to fix the fact chrome hangs
[17:23] <jacobw> i feel.. fat :p
[17:23]  * dwatkins hands jacobw a wafer-thin mint
[17:23] <jacobw> hmm
[17:24] <jacobw> now you've made me think about the joys of kendal mint cake
[17:24] <jacobw> insensitive clod!
[17:36] <dwatkins> haha
[17:49] <phonex01> such amazing food ..... anyone tried Mansaf before ???
[17:49] <phonex01> im just done with it i think i ate about 3 kg hahah
[18:00] <jacobw> i've never heard of that before, i've looked it up on wikipedia, it look amazing
[18:13] <twin> How can you kill X at TTY6, while you are at TTY2? - TTY6 is graphically stuck.
[18:18] <twin> * ok, managed to kill the other X. Now trying recover the other X such that I do not lose the pieces of information in the given windows.
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> twin: if you killed X, those applications will have closed
[18:20] <twin> MartijnVdS: I had two Xs running.
[18:20] <twin> MartijnVdS: at different displays.
[18:21] <twin> How can you see the processes that are on at TTY7 while you are at TTY2?
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> ps ?
[18:21] <twin> * ps aux does not give an accurate picture
[18:22] <twin> * I would like to know why the X just got stuck at TTY7.
[18:22] <twin> * I can move mouse. I see Google Maps which I was using. However, I can only move mouse.
[18:23] <twin> * answer is probably at log messages
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> It's probably not easily solveable
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> you could try killing google maps (from the other console)
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> see if that helps
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> if that doesn't help, I don't know what will
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> other than reboot
[18:27] <twin> MartijnVdS: true. Killed Chromes but the X is not responding, showing only Google maps.
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> twin: kill google maps
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> (don't you mean google earth?0
[18:28] <twin> MartijnVdS: No. I was using Chrome while the X crashed, playing LoU.
[18:28] <twin> * had many serial processes going on.
[18:29] <twin> * flash blocked however.
[18:29] <twin> * JS problem probably
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> no
[18:29] <twin> however, it should not crash like that
[18:29] <twin> yeah
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> OpenGL is probably the problem
[18:29] <twin> yeah
[18:30] <brobostigon> what does dmesg and xorg logs say, then you can file a bug.
[18:41] <Azelphur> Anyone here knowledgeable with the IRC protocol, or know a channel of people who are?
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: what are you trying to do? :)
[18:42] <twin> brobostigon: My dmesg and xorg.logs pastebin.com/AXaCNBBM and pastebin.com/cBKbLd5K
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: the protocol is a bit ambiguous in places, lots of things are convention
[18:43] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: when a mode is set on a user in a channel, the server sends MODE #channel +o blah
[18:43] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: but if you send a WHO #channel, the modes for the user are sent in a different format, like @ is +o
[18:43] <Azelphur> wondering how I convert between the 2.
[18:44] <shauno> usually just send version to the server
[18:44] <twin> MartijnVdS: Yes, it is a OpenGL issue: see the Xorg.log: couldn't not create pixmap
[18:44] <twin> MartijnVdS: fbcon issue
[18:45] <Azelphur> shauno: ah yea I see, my server sends RAW 005 which contains PREFIX=(qaohv)~&@%+
[18:45] <Azelphur> I wonder if all servers send that.
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: I'd check the source of a client
[18:45] <brobostigon> twin: ok, i cant see anyspeific there, so i would go with MartijnVdS, iwould take aquick browse onlaunchpad and see if something has been filed.
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> but maybe I'm strange
[18:45] <shauno> most I'm familiar with do.  eg, freenode has PREFIX=(ov)@+
[18:45] <Azelphur> cool
[18:45] <Azelphur> I'll have to pull that on startup then :)
[18:46] <twin> brobostigon: Yes, there are similar reports see with KDE, but I am using gnome + uni*
[18:46] <daubers> ping AlanBell
[18:46] <shauno> and PREFIX=(yqaohv)!~&@%+ from another network I'm on.  don't recall seeing one where it doesn't work, but can't promise it's actually in the spec
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> twin: could it be a (video) memory shortage?
[18:46] <brobostigon> twin: i see, ah.
[18:46] <Azelphur> shauno: that's should be ok then if it's in the spec :)
[18:47] <Azelphur> oh, can't promise
[18:47]  * Azelphur investigates
[18:47] <shauno> Azelphur: that's what I mean.  I'm not sure it is.  it just seems to be defacto.  (most the stuff in version is overloaded)
[18:47] <Azelphur> yea
[18:47] <twin> MartijnVdS: Probably, since I had two LoU going on, 10 chromes and one Google map
[18:47] <Azelphur> I'll just do it and if anyone complains fix it \o/
[18:48] <twin> MartijnVdS: + one firefox with 3 tabs
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> twin: don't do that then ;)
[18:48] <twin> MartijnVdS: But should it crash like that if there is a shortage of memory?
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> twin: lots of programs aren't tested for low video memory
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> twin: because it doesn't happen often
[18:49] <twin> MartijnVdS: But google chrome has been tested
[18:49] <twin> MartijnVdS: and firefox too
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> twin: Really? For behaviour in low-memory AND low-video-memory environments?
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> twin: I don't think so
[18:50] <twin> MartijnVdS: ok, I admit. I am newbie with these tests so I need trust you only for now
[18:50] <shauno> firefox and chrome can be a bit sketchy with poor video support, now that they're trying to move stuff like webgl into the browser itself
[18:51] <shauno> I'd look to see if there's an option to disable that, and see if it changes
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> twin: All I know is that it's very hard to test all bits of a program that need a new piece of memory (that happens all over the place) at exactly the moment memory runs out
[18:53] <twin> ok, thank you guys for your answers! I will try to disable webgl to test shauno's suggestino
[18:56] <twin> shauno: Yes, the problem is with WebGL, at least in Chrome. There is a short discussion 14/3/2011 by AdrianST about it in Google forum.
[18:57] <shauno> no idea if it's the whole problem in your case, but it does mean they're heavier on vram than you'd expect them to be
[18:58] <twin> true
[19:04] <HazRPG> \o
[19:18] <hamitron> :)
[19:35] <HazRPG> man, I hate to do this to my favourite operating system... but what's with all the inconsistencies!
[19:35] <HazRPG> I'm sure I've counted 3  different types of scrollbars so far
[19:35] <HazRPG> and I haven't installed anything out of the ordinary yet
[20:01] <Who__> popey: are you about?
[20:25] <HazRPG> hmm, how do I find out which localisation I'm using?
[20:26] <HazRPG> cos I don't recall the Rubbish Bin being called a "Wastebasket"
[20:26] <HazRPG> I'm pretty sure its only my american friends that call it a wastebasket
[20:27] <brobostigon> iwould tend toagree, we call it a bin.
[20:27] <DJones> HazRPG: Mine is called "Bin" with "Empty bin" when I right click
[20:27] <HazRPG> mine says "Empty Wastebasket"
[20:27] <DJones> HazRPG: Mine is called "Bin" with "Empty bin" when I right click
[20:27] <DJones> But "Wastebasket" when I click to open
[20:28] <HazRPG> oh yeah, in the unity bar its Bin... how odd :S
[20:28] <HazRPG> wow... too many inconsistencies >_<
[20:28] <HazRPG> its like a HCI nightmare
[20:29] <HazRPG> (I hate the fact that I studied HCI... I've noticed I'm nit-picking too much >_<)
[21:45] <gord> hello from budapest
[21:46] <brobostigon> evening gord o/
[21:46] <gord> the hotel wifi is slow and wired only. heads will roll!
[21:47] <brobostigon> :(
[21:47] <gord> i'v somehow managed to fuse my power cable into my laptop... thats a new one
[21:50] <popey> Should have taken a fon with you
[21:51] <popey> share out the hotel wifi and charge for it
[21:52] <gord> yeah i always want to do something like that, mostly just because wired is always better than the crappy wifi
[21:56] <gord> wow flash is like 60 odd mb
[22:01] <Daviey> gord: wait what?  < gord> the hotel wifi is slow and wired only <--- how is it WIFI if wired only?
[22:01] <gord> .... shut up thats why!
[22:01] <Daviey> gord: No wifi in the rooms, as in one cat5 cable?
[22:01] <gord> i'v been traveling all day :( words may not make sense
[22:02] <gord> no wifi in the room, i'll speak to someone tomorrow, there is wifi, but its behind a pay wall. was assured it was password free (the wired is, not the wifi)
[22:02] <Daviey> gord: Ahhh... have you asked reception if there is a 'conference code for the wifi?'
[22:03] <gord> tomorrow :) i'm tired and this works for now
[22:03] <Daviey> mind you, was it Orlando or Dallas where it said like 20 USD per 24hrs... and we were told 'they won't really charge you' confidence--
[22:03] <Daviey> gord: How long was your flight?!
[22:04] <gord> dallas, they do that every time at that hotel, they honestly don't charge you :)
[22:04] <gord> two hours!!! traveling drains me, all the preparation, waiting around, hard work it is
[22:05] <Daviey> wow, i hope you walked around a bit on the plane... that deep vein thrombosis is a real concern on long haul.
[22:05] <gord> you coming next week Daviey?
[22:05] <Daviey> gord: Yeah, arrive Wed.
[22:06] <gord> oh, i leave wednesday :P
[22:06] <Daviey> gord: you won't be there for UDS?
[22:06] <gord> no no i leave next wednesday, so here for half of uds
[22:06] <gord> honestly, i'm useless the thursday/friday of uds anyway, i don't even remember them
[22:07] <Daviey> gord: I arrive on the 4th May.  You fly out on the 11th... our paths might cross. :o
[22:07] <gord> oooh you arrive this wednesday, gotcha
[22:07] <Daviey> fly out = return home.
[22:08] <gord> oh geez... this is not g ood
[22:08] <gord> the minibar is full of delicious things, its not empty like normal
[22:08] <Daviey> gord: blame your roomie.
[22:09] <brobostigon> what is the uds planning page?
[22:10] <brobostigon> or should i just look at the blueprints page onlaunchpad?
[22:10] <gord> depends what you mean by planning, what are you after?
[22:11] <brobostigon> just shedule, dates etc.
[22:12] <gord> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/
[22:13] <brobostigon> thank you gord
[22:14] <jibadeeha> deja dup is an excellent piece of software
[22:26] <AlanBell> o/ Pendulum
[22:26] <Pendulum> AlanBell: hiya
[22:26] <AlanBell> good trip?
[22:27] <Pendulum> not bad
[22:28] <mgdm> evening
[22:28] <Pendulum> got upgraded for 2nd flight so actually got to sleep lying down for a couple hours on it!
[22:28] <Pendulum> hiya mgdm
[22:29] <mgdm> ow goes?
[22:29] <AlanBell> nice, I have never turned left when getting on to a plane
[22:31] <Pendulum> good
[22:36] <Pendulum> mgdm: not bad
[22:42] <gord> o_O why do you want AlanBell to not have nice things :(
[22:43] <popey> heh
[22:43] <popey> I only turned left once
[22:43] <popey> got free upgrade going to NY
[22:43] <popey> Free upgrade on a free flight \o/
[22:43] <popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/773243
[22:43] <lubotu3`> Ubuntu bug 773243 in Ubuntu Website "Ubuntu website advertises "Fully compatible with Microsoft Office"" [Undecided,Invalid]
[22:43] <popey> what do we feel about that?
[22:44] <popey> personally the wording makes me feel icky
[22:44] <Pendulum> gord: was responding to mgdm
[22:44] <popey> I would never say "Our office applications, for example, are fully compatible with Microsoft Office" to someone
[22:44] <popey> it sounds like a lie
[22:44] <gord> it is a lie
[22:44] <Pendulum> sorry, I've gotten 2 hours of sleep in the last 36
[22:45] <gord> it should not say fully compatible with microsoft office because ubuntu is not fully compatible with microsoft office
[22:45] <AlanBell> popey: does libre office or openoffice.org make that claim?
[22:45] <popey> Pass
[22:46] <Daviey> popey: "fully compatible" needs a list of fail to really answer it IMO.. but as i said the other day, it's 'no fuss!' :)
[22:46] <AlanBell> http://www.libreoffice.org/features/
[22:47] <popey> Ok, I can give you three fails.
[22:47] <mgdm> quick survey: how much like an early Dr Who "Patented BBC Bad Chromakey™" does http://mgdm.net/final.jpg look? :)
[22:47] <popey> 1) Publisher
[22:47] <DJones> Isn't MS Publisher included within MS Office.... I didn't think LibreOffice/OpenOffice had anything compatible
[22:47] <popey> 2) Visio
[22:47] <popey> 3) OneNote
[22:47] <popey> none of those are in LibreOffice (or Ubuntu)
[22:47] <penguin42> popey: Even sticking just to word/powerpoint/excel you couldn't honestly make that claim
[22:48] <popey> indeed
[22:48] <gord> mgdm, don't really know what i'm looking for
[22:49] <Daviey> popey: http://www.libreoffice.org/features/  is what upstream claim, under "LibreOffice is user-friendly:"  Not quite as strong a claim.
[22:49] <Daviey> pah, AlanBell beat me.
[22:49] <popey> yeah, was reading that
[22:50] <mgdm> gord: does the church at the top look photoshopped in?
[22:50] <Pendulum> Daviey: I had a moment in Kings Cross today thinking I'd seen you. It was very odd (and was definitely not you on 2nd look, just 1/2 glance initially looked similar)
[22:50] <Daviey> Pendulum: I was there on Friday ;)
[22:50] <gord> mgdm, it looks off, but at a glance i wouldn't say its photoshopped
[22:51] <shauno> not sure that bug should be invalid
[22:51] <Daviey> Pendulum: Was it an unbelievably handsome chap?  I can see how you would have mistaken him for me.
[22:51] <mgdm> gord: ah. It's 3 photos blended together to get roughly the right exposure everywhere in the image
[22:52] <popey> Pendulum: hang on, you're in the UK, now?
[22:52] <shauno> I think if I'd bought ubuntu as a commercial product on the grounds of promised compatibility, I'd be due a refund
[22:52] <Pendulum> popey: as of noon today
[22:53] <gord> Pendulum, gone to see the queen yet? you can ask her to tea any time and she has to say yes, its in the constitution
[22:53]  * AlanBell gives shauno a full refund
[22:53] <shauno> heh, I know
[22:53] <Daviey> AlanBell: even if shauno bought the cd from the online shop? :)
[22:54] <shauno> but I mean, that statement is misleading enough that if money were to be changing hands, that'd be under statutory rights
[22:54] <shauno> I think marking it invalid with no discussion at all is rather hasty, is all
[22:54] <gord> my shower gel says that women will flock to me, pretty sure you can say that anything does anything
[22:55] <Daviey> AlanBell: I bought 100 of these, http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=765 - can you give me a refund... kkthnxbye.
[22:55] <AlanBell> gord: it hints at it
[22:55] <shauno> it kinda implies it on tv, but you won't find it written on the package
[22:55]  * AlanBell thinks it is silly to have an argument when everyone is in agreement
[22:56] <gord> AlanBell, it literally says the words "unlimited female attention"
[22:56] <gord> right there on the container
[22:56] <shauno> right; so to dispute that, you'd have to prove that it is enforcing limits :p
[22:58] <brobostigon> good night, sleep well,everyone.
[22:59] <shauno> office compatibilty is pretty much a myth anyway.  I can create documents on ms office for mac, that don't open properly in ms office for windows
[23:00] <shauno> if ms office isn't compatible with ms office, what chance does anyone else have
[23:10] <Virunga> Hi, i would know if there are 3rd part drivers for ati 4850 graphic card
[23:10] <Virunga> for ubuntu 11.04
[23:11] <Virunga> because i tried to see a movie with preinstalled driver and the vision was not good
[23:12] <Azelphur> Virunga: go to system > administration > hardware drivers
[23:12] <Virunga> Azelphur: i did it, with ubuntu live cd
[23:12] <Azelphur> Ubuntu live cds have that disabled I believe, largely because it requires a reboot to install
[23:13] <Azelphur> so it'd be wiped on reboot xD
[23:14] <Virunga> Azelphur: so i must install ubuntu to know
[23:14] <Azelphur> Virunga: check on atis driver page and see if there are drivers for Linux?
[23:15] <popey> !ati
[23:15] <lubotu3`> For Ati/NVidia/Matrox video cards, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VideoDriverHowto
[23:15] <Virunga> Azelphur good idea
[23:24] <Virunga> I found driver for my graphic card for linux x86. I have ubuntu 64bit, the driver is good?
[23:42] <czajkowski> Aloha
[23:45] <Tommeh>  /delurk
[23:45] <Tommeh> Hi
[23:45] <Tommeh>  /lurk
[23:47] <ali1234> argh the scrollbar thing won't let me resize windows from the right edge
[23:48] <Azelphur> woot, broke g++ http://pastebin.com/5dfY6tS4 \o/
[23:49] <ali1234> natty?
[23:49] <Azelphur> on my server, 10.04 LTS
[23:49] <ali1234> oh dear
[23:50] <ali1234> reproducable?
[23:50] <Azelphur> yep
[23:50] <Azelphur> can't build ZNC :(
[23:51] <Azelphur> I'll do an upgrade, see if that fixes it
[23:51] <shauno> 0.098?
[23:52] <Azelphur> indeed
[23:52] <popey> where did you get that tarball?
[23:52] <Azelphur> from znc.in
[23:53] <Azelphur> and it's happening with znc 0.096 too, which I could build before
[23:53] <Azelphur> so something has gone wrong o.O
[23:53] <popey> what did you do?
[23:53] <popey> untar it, configure, make?
[23:53] <Azelphur> yep
[23:53] <popey> anything else, anything special?
[23:53] <Azelphur> nope.
[23:54] <shauno> what options does configure find?
[23:54] <Azelphur> shauno: http://pastebin.com/kirQ1Eyk
[23:56] <shauno> hm, mine matches but without c-ares, and succeeds
[23:56] <popey> builds fine here
[23:56] <Azelphur> yea as I said I can't build 0.096 either which I built fine a while back
[23:56] <popey> no openssl no c-ares here
[23:56] <Azelphur> something not ZNC wise has gone wrong
[23:56] <shauno> http://pastebin.com/EgrxZ4Bn  (succeeds is boring, but there it is - on 10.04.2)
[23:56] <Azelphur> maybe I'll try without c-ares
[23:57] <Azelphur> nope, still won't build with --disable-c-ares
[23:57] <Azelphur> and with --disable-openssl too :p
[23:58] <shauno> works on mine with c-ares too.  so the only difference I can see between them is that you're building for x86_64, and I'm not
[23:59] <Azelphur> shauno: it's not a ZNC issue.
[23:59] <shauno> didn't say it was.  it's an issue, somewhere, and I'm trying to help narrow it
[23:59] <Azelphur> ok :p