[00:05] <Milyardo> So what need need then are more games written in .NET and Mono will be okay?
[00:12] <snap-l> Milyardo: Folks that hate on Mono and don't hate on Java are blind to the problems with both
[00:13] <rick_h__> I just prefer to hate
[00:13] <snap-l> It's just that it's convenient to hate on Microsoft's technology because of the underlying opinion that Microsoft wouldn't create anything without ulterior motives
[00:14] <snap-l> ie: mono will be a patent trap, or will get changed to keep developers scrambling or...
[00:14] <snap-l> Which are complaints that can be leveled at Java, or any other corporate controlled language.
[13:15] <snap-l> Good morning
[13:15] <snap-l> So, I finally got a hold of someoene that can help me with the Java code at work
[13:15] <rick_h__> wheeee
[13:15] <snap-l> and right off the bat, he says to use Eclipse
[13:16] <rick_h__> lol
[13:16] <greg-g> haha
[13:16] <greg-g> g'morn
[13:16] <rick_h__> that's why I'm a bit of a 'look down' on the IDE folks.
[13:16] <snap-l> And hands me a project file / bundle / whatever the hell it is
[13:16] <greg-g> guess who's been getting up way too early lately? That's right, this guy. 7am is ungodly
[13:16] <rick_h__> can't code without their buttons to press
[13:16] <rick_h__> greg-g: hah, come on. I was clocked into work a quarter till 7
[13:16] <snap-l> seriously Java isn't a programming language as much as it is an oral tradition.
[13:17] <snap-l> with inexplicable code bundles handed down from generation to generation of coders.
[13:18] <rick_h__> "this magic eclipse project will build...we don't know why, but by god it builds
[13:18] <tjagoda> Sounds like a different kind of oral tradition.
[13:18] <tjagoda>  /pun music
[13:21] <snap-l> I think there's one developer out there that cranks out this stuff
[13:21] <snap-l> once he gets fed up, Java will cease to be.
[13:22] <snap-l> (or she, for that matter)
[13:23] <tjagoda> lol
[13:32] <brousch> greg-g: poor baby. i get up at 6am every day and the first thing i have to do is wake my cranky wife and cranky kid
[13:32] <rick_h__> new ones?
[13:32] <brousch> eh?
[13:33] <rick_h__> maybe get some non-cranky versions
[13:33] <rick_h__> seems like a bad feature to me
[13:34] <rick_h__> sorry, wife and I joke about getting upgraded versions of each other and such. Guess it's not quite normal to everyone else
[13:35] <brousch> these are people, not robots, you insensitive clod
[13:35] <_stink_> isn't that just new firmware?
[13:35] <rick_h__> _stink_: meh, it's like new android phones
[13:35] <rick_h__> you could root/upgrade but you might as well just get the newer versions
[13:35] <_stink_> ha, the whole thing then
[13:35] <_stink_> sign me up
[13:35] <brousch> please do not root your children
[13:46] <greg-g> brousch: yeah, the gf is still sleeping when I wake up and leave :/
[14:02] <snap-l> http://decafbad.net/2011/05/04/tear-down-this-wall/ <- The thought for the day.
[14:03] <rick_h__> lol, "public static final"
[14:03] <rick_h__> always fitting java into your posts snap-l, you fanboi :P
[14:03] <snap-l> Yah, totally
[14:04] <greg-g> I liked it, made me giggle
[14:07] <rick_h__> OMG I love zsh
[14:07] <rick_h__> rm **/*.pyc
[14:07] <rick_h__> bammo
[14:10] <rick_h__> greg-g: can you do recurring meetings in the loco directory?
[14:11] <snap-l> for CHC?
[14:11] <snap-l> Not easily.
[14:11] <snap-l> I think you have to copy the event
[14:11] <rick_h__> yea, was thinking of starting a rebranding of UH/CHC
[14:11] <snap-l> Calling it Ubuntu Hour instead?
[14:11] <rick_h__> combining a bit
[14:11] <snap-l> Yeah, that makes sense
[14:11] <rick_h__> Ubuntu House:CofeeHouseCoders
[14:12] <rick_h__> nice little shortcut of UH:CHC
[14:12] <rick_h__> claim we work with the community and such so the dual brand
[14:12] <rick_h__> but get it on the calendar
[14:12] <snap-l> sellout. ;)
[14:12]  * greg-g nods
[14:12] <greg-g> I like
[14:13] <greg-g> I'll report a bug against loco directory for the feature request part, but I'm game for the rebranding, of course
[14:13] <snap-l> But yeah, I was going to put it on the events calendar, but hesitated because it wasn't ubuntu specufic
[14:13] <snap-l> So a slight re-branding would work
[14:14] <rick_h__> dammit, I hate canonical web UX
[14:14] <rick_h__> that time picker is the suck
[14:14] <snap-l> Oh totally.
[14:14] <snap-l> You can't even type in a value
[14:14] <brousch> yeah, that thing is annoying. i'll bet it's really annoying if you hate your mouse
[14:14] <rick_h__> what? have to put it in diff time?
[14:15] <snap-l> Try typing in 20:00 and see what happens.
[14:15] <rick_h__> I'm regretting my decision just based on getting it in this freaking suckitude of a web page
[14:15] <rick_h__> no, you mean 00 since it's +4
[14:15] <snap-l> Events are local time, no?
[14:15] <rick_h__> dammit, so CHC is 00 the 6th?
[14:16] <rick_h__> no, UTC
[14:16] <rick_h__> sorry, 00 5th
[14:16] <snap-l> The natty panel event that I put in was under EDT
[14:16] <brousch> i think it's local time
[14:16] <brousch> i remember having to pick the time zone
[14:17] <rick_h__> no, it says all events must be in UTC
[14:17] <rick_h__> but then it says the TZ is +1
[14:17] <rick_h__> do we have a TZ in our team settings?
[14:17] <brousch> maybe recurring events are different?
[14:17] <rick_h__> there's no recurring events
[14:17] <rick_h__> this is for a meeting vs an event
[14:17] <rick_h__> at least that's what I figured this was since there's no signup/etc
[14:17] <rick_h__> ugh, pita
[14:17] <brousch> ah, that could be
[14:18] <snap-l> I think it might be better to put it as an event
[14:18] <greg-g> oh, yeah, meetings are UTC, because it does fancy IRC log parsing
[14:18] <jrwren> Milyardo: blind hatred of MSFT. The extremists don't use samba and hate it just as much and will offer solutions like "use NFS"
[14:18] <snap-l> since it isn't a team meeting
[14:18] <greg-g> events are local time
[14:18] <rick_h__> ah, events are local
[14:18] <rick_h__> gotcha
[14:19] <snap-l> yeah
[14:19] <rick_h__> ok, well events had all this extra crap I didn't need/want so went with meeting
[14:19] <rick_h__> going back
[14:19] <jrwren> rick_h__++ I use an IDE, but I still look down on the ide folks :)
[14:19] <greg-g> btw https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-directory/+bug/777098
[14:19] <snap-l> Marked as affecting me as well
[14:20] <greg-g> thankya
[14:21] <rick_h__> ok, added the month of may at least
[14:22] <rick_h__> we'll see if I copy/keep it up
[14:22] <snap-l> I can maintain it if you want.
[14:22] <snap-l> I'm kinda anal about calendars. ;)
[14:22] <brousch> will you make rick_h__ boot from an ubuntu livecd at the meetings?
[14:23] <snap-l> Nah, he'll come around eventually
[14:23] <snap-l> the fifth time that X crashes for no reason, he'll be back. ;)
[14:23] <rick_h__> had 5 of them :(
[14:23] <rick_h__> but spread over several weeks
[14:23] <snap-l> I mean in one day.
[14:24] <rick_h__> heh, I think 3 in one day would trigger a reinstall
[14:24] <greg-g> not to be a wet blanket in ubuntu-land, but a buddy from another channel had unity crash 3 times on him yesterday for no apparent reason, on a fresh install :/
[14:25] <snap-l> greg-g: I'd believe it
[14:25] <snap-l> Unity is hard on graphics hardware
[14:25] <greg-g> I was saddened by it. The first it crashed completely, the second was alt-tab wouldn't display the windows being tab'd through (but would "blindly" work), the third I'm not sure
[14:25] <rick_h__> it's getting hardon users
[14:25] <brousch> i haven't had it crash, but i also haven't used it for real work or for longer than an hour at a stretch
[14:25] <rick_h__> with a space in there
[14:25] <snap-l> I think a lot of folks that found the intel cards "good enough" are going to be rethinking that decision.
[14:25] <greg-g> brousch: oh, I thought you were full time with it for some reason
[14:26] <rick_h__> yea, I'm seeing a lot of folks thinking about really jumping ship
[14:26] <brousch> greg-g: http://clusterbleep.net/blog/2011/05/02/natty-and-unity-at-wmlug/
[14:27] <snap-l> Thing is, Unity is still beta software
[14:27] <jrwren> no it is not.
[14:27] <jrwren> it is released.
[14:27] <jrwren> it may be poor quality, but canonical shipped it.
[14:27] <jrwren> there is no beta in there.
[14:28] <rick_h__> ok fine: "it's beta quality software"
[14:28] <greg-g> jrwren: :) I agree. It is like calling KDE 4.0 "beta"
[14:28] <snap-l> rick_h__: ++
[14:28] <rick_h__> release early/often has its drawbacks...see bookie blow ups
[14:28] <snap-l> Thing is, KDE 4.0 was beta quality
[14:28] <greg-g> but we loves rick_h__
[14:28] <jrwren> yet gmail beta was extremely high quality.  IMO higher quality than it is these days.
[14:28] <snap-l> even though it was "released"
[14:28] <jrwren> so I'm not sure what "beta quality" maens.
[14:28] <jrwren> I've used betas of extremely high quality.
[14:28] <greg-g> "not releaseable"
[14:28] <rick_h__> bah, beta == known bugs and gmail had that
[14:28] <jrwren> so lets just call it poor quality or buggy
[14:28] <rick_h__> now they carried that tag way too long
[14:29] <rick_h__> but a giant new window manager framework that's < 1yr old should have a beta tag on it
[14:29] <snap-l> jrwren: We're getting into a semantic war that nobody will be able to definitively win. ;)
[14:29] <jrwren> truth.
[14:29] <jrwren> so lets argue about something else... like was it really war?
[14:30] <snap-l> and who really won?
[14:30] <jrwren> giant new window manager?  how big is it?
[14:30] <jrwren> it can't be more than a few thousand lines of code.
[14:30] <rick_h__> bigger than pytile :P
[14:30] <jrwren> hehe.
[14:30] <snap-l> Well, Unity also includes app changes to make it work better
[14:30] <rick_h__> I don't know, if they go about their C anything like their python/launchpad it's a lot more than that
[14:30] <snap-l> XEMBED is deprecated.
[14:30] <brousch> so if they'd released it with a giant BETA on the desktop background it would've been ok?
[14:30] <greg-g> I'm still hung up on the fact that Unity is *just* a plugin to Compiz
[14:31] <rick_h__> greg-g: funny isn't it
[14:31] <snap-l> brousch: Of course not
[14:31] <snap-l> brousch: They'd need to make that text customizable
[14:32] <snap-l> brousch: So instead of saying "BETA", it could say "Joe's Chicken Shack", or have an API to put a clock there.
[14:32] <rick_h__> brousch: personally, I'd say at this point it should have been a install time option
[14:32] <snap-l> or your entire todo list.
[14:32] <rick_h__> "would you like to help beta test our huge cluster?"
[14:32] <snap-l> rick_h__: Nobody would use it, then. ;)
[14:32] <rick_h__> see: https://luke.faraone.cc/blog/2011/05/your-release-sucks/
[14:32] <snap-l> That's what Ubuntu Classic is for
[14:33] <rick_h__> right, but when crap crashes it doesn't say "I noticed you had a big boom crash. Would you like me to install the classic for you?"
[14:33] <brousch> classic is always installed
[14:33] <rick_h__> ok fine "Would you like me to switch to classic for you"
[14:33] <snap-l> rick_h__: You're assuming that the person involved with the crash still has display drivers that aren't completely fucked at this point. ;)
[14:34] <brousch> well actually it does say that if your graphics drivers aren't up to snuff ;)
[14:34] <snap-l> blink blink blink blink blink
[14:34] <rick_h__> brousch: then the code to do it is already there
[14:34] <brousch> It says something like "your graphics drivers suck. logout and switch to classic"
[14:34] <rick_h__> they should also be referencing a list of drivers that are know to be causing issues this release
[14:35] <snap-l> rick_h__: ++
[14:35] <rick_h__> good ole blacklist is back "lots of people with that totally legit card, but which we didn't test much, are having crashes, we'd like to provide you a more stable experience to reduce our hate mail kthx"
[14:35] <jrwren> that would be great.
[14:35] <jrwren> and not do that until after the first crash... so people who do have a good experience continue to have a good experience.
[14:35] <rick_h__> stable > pretty
[14:35] <rick_h__> jrwren: totally, get the bug report
[14:35] <rick_h__> and get the crash count
[14:36] <rick_h__> so you know about it since you're basically turning live people into beta testers on hardware that wasn't well tested
[14:36] <jrwren> you guys should go code that up
[14:36] <rick_h__> but after that first crash...don't do it 3 times in one day
[14:36] <rick_h__> and piss off greg-g's buddy
[14:36] <jrwren> who is that?
[14:36] <rick_h__> greg-g's buddy had 3 crashes in one day and is not happy with natty
[14:37] <rick_h__> see backlog
[14:37] <snap-l> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/h3las/attachmate_lays_off_mono_employees/ <- This discussion really pisses me off
[14:38] <rick_h__> add that to the comments you don't read
[14:38] <snap-l> mostly because people are so blinded by hate that they can't see potential good
[14:38] <rick_h__>  /. reddit youtube
[14:38] <snap-l> Meh, I like the comments on Reddit
[14:38] <snap-l> Tehre's some gold in there
[14:39] <snap-l> Youtube's featured comments are about as far as I can get before they blow up into crap and racism
[14:40] <snap-l> actually, racism is definitely in the set of crap
[14:40] <jrwren> snap-l: the fact that the original article is a lie should piss you off too
[14:41] <snap-l> http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2011/05/attachmate-lays-off-mono-emplo.html#comment-153773 <- The fact that Bradley Kuhn is the voice of reason here is sad.
[14:41] <brousch> jrwren: attachmate is not laying off the mono people?
[14:42] <jrwren> nope.
[14:42] <jrwren> its all a lie.
[14:42] <jrwren> no mono people were laid off.
[14:42] <jrwren> 100 or so people from Novell were laid off in provo Utah.
[14:42] <jrwren> no one on the mono team was laid off.
[14:43] <wolfger> "Its about what is an application and what is a program."
[14:44] <wolfger> ...
[14:46] <jrwren> snap-l: I like that reddit comment thread... lots of posts with negative points.
[14:47] <jrwren> now there are also too many comments with high + points that should be negative, but at least there is some good in tehre :)
[14:47] <snap-l> IT's just a bowl full of stupid
[14:47] <wolfger> a lot of pointless bickering over what is a good language
[14:48] <wolfger> and idiocy like the above "what is an app and what is a program" quote
[14:48] <jrwren> rofl @ GTK# is patent incumbered.
[14:48] <jrwren> ROFL ROFL.
[14:48] <jrwren> well, then, I guess GTK+ is too!
[14:48] <snap-l> It's the same bullshit argument that we're somehow chasing Microsoft and asking for a seat at the big-boys table
[14:48] <wolfger> what about GTK++?
[14:48] <snap-l> And that it's a patent trap
[14:48] <jrwren> oh definitely.
[14:48] <jrwren> must be.
[14:49] <jrwren> so that means all of gnome too, because its built on GTK
[14:49] <jrwren> gnome is a MS patent trap!
[14:49] <snap-l> in case anyone hadn't noticed, just about anything is a patent trap
[14:49] <jrwren> i'm not sure the phrase "patent trap" even makes sense.
[14:49] <snap-l> It makes as much sense as a parent trap
[14:50] <jrwren> hrm... Haley Mills or Lindsay Lohan?
[14:50] <snap-l> both
[14:50] <wolfger> "parent trap" was a movie about trapping parents
[14:50] <wolfger> patent traps are not about trapping patents
[14:50] <wolfger> totally inappropriate comparisson
[14:50] <wolfger> :-)
[14:50] <snap-l> so, by extension, we should make a movie with Lindsay Lohan about trapping patents
[14:51] <wolfger> Let's use Kim Khardasian instead. She's hotter.
[14:51] <jrwren> I think she would be better at trapping something else.
[14:51] <jrwren> ZOMG GROSS.
[14:51] <snap-l> I'm sure she'll be pretty reasonably priced once she gets off probation / jail / whatever.
[14:51] <jrwren> I don't understand who the world thinks she is hot.
[14:51] <jrwren> or why the world thinks she is hot.
[14:51] <jrwren> gross gross gross.
[14:52] <snap-l> jrwren: There's a certain contingent of folks that enjoy the easy slut look
[14:52] <wolfger> so... jrwren thinks Lindsay Lohan is hotter?
[14:52] <jrwren> gross gross gross.
[14:52] <jrwren> Lohan at her prime was hot.
[14:52] <jrwren> these days... not so much.
[14:52] <snap-l> I prefer something that can at least hold up the end of a conversation without trying to hold themselves onto a barstool.
[14:53] <jrwren> snap-l: brains?  those just get in the way of my adgenda ;]
[14:53] <wolfger> ++
[14:54] <wolfger> Kim appeals to those who like booty
[14:54] <jrwren> i like booty. she does not appeal to me.
[14:54] <wolfger> O.o
[14:54] <snap-l> She's as appealing as a used cigarette
[14:55] <wolfger> to each their own, I guess
[14:56] <wolfger> mind you, she's not on my top 10 list... all I said was she's hotter than Lindsay. And about on-par celebrity-wise.
[14:56] <snap-l> wolfger: I can live with that.
[14:58] <ColonelPanic001> I have just walked into something
[14:58] <wolfger> "I can't think of a hotter reality show floozy". How's that for a ringing endorsement? XD
[14:58] <_stink_> better weigh in, ColonelPanic001
[14:59] <snap-l> http://cdmckay.org/blog/2011/05/02/things-i-miss-from-java-while-programming-in-c/ <- Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't think I'd miss any of these so-called "features".
[14:59] <ColonelPanic001> Kim Cardassian looks too artificial.
[14:59] <rick_h__> @!$##$@ speaking of X crashes...
[14:59] <snap-l> ruh roh
[15:00] <ColonelPanic001> I'm sticking with my Natalie Portman infatuation. You all can take the useless idiot reality show "stars".
[15:00] <snap-l> Hey tbemus
[15:00] <jrwren> snap-l: you aren't writing enough code then :)
[15:00] <snap-l> tbemus: Quick, somewhat embarrassing question if you've got a sec.
[15:00] <tbemus> sure
[15:01] <snap-l> jrwren: Maybe I'm not
[15:01] <jrwren> snap-l: although the anonymous inner classes point I think the author misunderstands what is going on.  the other points I kind of agree with him on.
[15:01] <snap-l> tbemus: https://picasaweb.google.com/craigmaloney/Penguicon2011#5602143548380050258 <- Who is the lady on the left?
[15:01] <jrwren> ColonelPanic001: do you have black swan on repeat?
[15:01] <snap-l> I should know this.
[15:02] <wolfger> curse my anti-picasaweb work firewall :-p
[15:02] <ColonelPanic001> jrwren: never saw it
[15:02] <tbemus> snap-l: Mary Tolmech  - She is a regular at the MDLug meetings
[15:02] <ColonelPanic001> she looked starved, from what I saw, anyway
[15:02] <snap-l> Thank you. :)
[15:02] <ColonelPanic001> but it is aronofsky, so I will eventually
[15:02] <snap-l> I thought her name was Mary, but I wasn't 100% sure
[15:03] <tbemus> Your welcome
[15:04] <wolfger> ok, can it be lunchtime yet?
[15:04] <jrwren> ColonelPanic001: its a great movie. and I'm not a huge portman fan.
[15:04] <wolfger> I am both hungry and tired. I would like some food and a nap :-p
[15:06] <ColonelPanic001> jrwren: noted, thanks
[15:07] <ColonelPanic001> in other related news, I just found that WSU has a page for their cheerleaders.
[15:07] <wolfger> woot!
[15:07] <jrwren> o_O
[15:07] <snap-l> That's like finding out that WSU has a football team
[15:07] <jrwren> I remember liking the oakland dance team back when I went there.
[15:08] <jrwren> I'd take 1/2 or maybe all of them over any of the aforementioned celebs.
[15:08] <snap-l> I did not like the Venturettes (Bishop Foley's Dance Team)
[15:08] <jrwren> high school groups always suck IMO.
[15:09] <jrwren> or... back when I was in high school... the never sucked when you wanted them to.
[15:09] <jrwren> *oh snap*
[15:09] <snap-l> Mostly because somoene got the bright idea to play Axel F at top volume through the shitty horn speakers in the gym

[15:09] <jrwren> rofl.
[15:10]  * jrwren imagines a breakin' crew dancin with the nuns
[15:10] <snap-l> jrwren: You wish
[15:11] <snap-l> It was the girls team for those who didn't do cheerleading
[15:11] <jrwren> right.
[15:12] <jrwren> and I'm LMAO picturing them in neon clothes and headbands and wristbands doing backspins and headspins with nuns
[15:12] <snap-l> Also, Foley was the more 1970s version of nuns
[15:12] <snap-l> no habits, folk music
[15:12] <snap-l> Vatican II was in full effect there.
[15:13] <jrwren> i know.
[15:13] <ColonelPanic001> Sounds like a movie sequel.
[15:13] <ColonelPanic001> Vatican II: The Resurrection
[15:13] <snap-l> Considering they let a Lutheran in there, that was pretty big. :)
[15:13] <_stink_> DAMNIT
[15:13] <wolfger> the connection is so obvious.... Axel Foley... Bishop Foley....
[15:13] <jrwren> but lots of silly movies of the same time period...well...ok... a little earlier... made hokey nuns in habits references.
[15:13] <_stink_> ColonelPanic001: i had just typed that exact thing in
[15:13] <wolfger> Vatican II: Electric Boogaloo
[15:13] <snap-l> jrwren: Sister Act this wasn't. ;)
[15:13] <snap-l> wolfger: lol
[15:13] <ColonelPanic001> Vatican II: Revelations
[15:14] <_stink_> Vatican II: Chastity is Dead
[15:14] <wolfger> lol
[15:14] <ColonelPanic001> Vatican II: Weekend At Ratzinger's
[15:14] <snap-l> Though I'm sure they didn't like me referring to John Paul II as "The Deuce"
[15:14] <wolfger> Vatican II: Why are the alter boys all scared?
[15:14] <snap-l> That, and my mom packed me baloney sandwiches during lent.
[15:14] <jrwren> I was thinking Repossessed :)
[15:15] <snap-l> So I'd be sitting there eating meat on a Friday in a Catholic school.
[15:15] <wolfger> s/alter/altar/ :-p
[15:15] <_stink_> snap-l: that is awesome
[15:15] <wolfger> _stink_++
[15:15] <snap-l> Yeah, I'm a rebel.
[15:16] <wolfger> it was a subtle statement... "no-meat on Fridays is baloney"
[15:16] <wolfger> Did they call you Baloney Maloney?
[15:16] <snap-l> wolfger: Ever since first grade, thank you.
[15:17] <wolfger> children and moms are so cruel
[15:18] <snap-l> Though one of the coaches shared my last name
[15:18] <snap-l> so people naturally assumed we were related.
[15:18] <snap-l> didn't help that he also had reddish hair
[15:18] <snap-l> Coach Edward maloney
[15:18] <wolfger> "why does the coach's son suck at sports?"
[15:19] <snap-l> I'm sure that came up a few times.
[15:19] <brousch> and what's their secret baloney connection?
[15:19] <snap-l> Why is he in band
[15:19] <wolfger> snap-l: the orignal Glee
[15:20] <wolfger> did you get slushied a lot?
[15:20] <snap-l> I don't sing in public. :)
[15:20] <snap-l> If they had an American Idol for drummers, I'd totally be there. :)
[15:20] <wolfger> poor JoDee
[15:21] <wolfger> because I know what the "in public" attachment means...
[15:21] <snap-l> wolfger: Well, lets just say one year people got a taste of me trying to sing Ashes to Ashes by David Bowie
[15:21] <wolfger> If you don't sing, you don't sing. If you don't sing in public, the people who live with you suffer.
[15:21] <snap-l> (at Penguicon)
[15:22] <wolfger> when is Penguicon, anyway?
[15:23] <wolfger> I feel like it should be here soon
[15:23] <wolfger> :-p
[15:23] <snap-l> wolfger: Yeah, wasn't this just the pre-show?
[15:23] <wolfger> feels like it.
[15:24] <wolfger> it just.... was *less* than usual, somehow
[15:24] <wolfger> partly because I was tired and in bed earlier than normal (for con) every night
[15:24] <ColonelPanic001> Saturday night was the best Pcon Saturday night I've ever had.
[15:24] <ColonelPanic001> Then again, I drank more than usual, might be related.
[15:25] <wolfger> but even aside from the missed parties, it felt like the days just flew by without much happening
[15:25] <ColonelPanic001> but I was right behind the actual romans when they paraded through the lobby, I watched a drunken nerd wrestle a viking to the ground in the hotel hallways, and was there when packed Hallway by the romans all sang "Piano Man" at screaming-sound-levels. It was a good night.
[15:25] <snap-l> Yeah, I did the panels I was involved with, the Smithee Awards, and the Unity panel
[15:26] <ColonelPanic001> I did a few offbeat ones. "Something About Dopamine" was really good
[15:27] <ColonelPanic001> the Killer Android one was okay
[15:27] <ColonelPanic001> Apartment-Friendly Composting was neat, although I doubt I'll try it myself.
[15:27] <snap-l> Yeah, my biggest complaint would be that the good talks were opposite my talks.
[15:28] <snap-l> good tech talks, rather
[15:28] <ColonelPanic001> they did tend to cluster together
[15:33] <brousch> greg-g: Do you know if there's a way to order the photos that get displayed here? http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-michigan
[15:33] <brousch> I think it's showing mine first because my username is first alphabetically
[15:37] <snap-l> Man, I love Google Voice
[15:37] <snap-l> I've set some annoying idiots to go to voicemail (Bank of America advertisers)
[15:38] <snap-l> Just save the contact, set "send directly to voice mail", and I don't have to hear a thing.
[15:39] <wolfger> ColonelPanic001: Yeah, the dopamine panel was very interesting
[15:39] <wolfger> my favorite was the molecular gastronomy panel, though (ever so slightly)
[15:40] <wolfger> I want to make little spheres of Bailey's Irish Cream now
[15:41] <ColonelPanic001> last year there was one or two about neural networks that was really good
[15:41] <wolfger> the panel on dopamine explains why I enjoy a bad day at work more than a normal boring day at work.
[15:42] <wolfger> "Everything's breaking! Yay, dopamine!" :-p
[15:42] <binbrain> really odd that attachmate kicks suse over to germany, curious decision
[15:43] <snap-l> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/coffee <- I love the "Caffeine: How it works" section of this comic.
[15:45] <wolfger> I love the dancing goats graphic
[15:45] <snap-l> wolfger: You can get to that?
[15:45] <snap-l> Praise be.
[15:45] <ColonelPanic001> official tea for Pcon next year?: http://www.adagio.com/signature_blend/blend.html?blend=13805
[15:46] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: Heh
[15:46] <snap-l> http://www.meijer.com/s/skyline-furniture-armless-accent-chair-esprit-pear/_/R-183409 <- Oh wow, I need 12 of these
[15:48] <wolfger> snap-l: this firewall's idea of what is ok and what is not truly boggles the mind...
[15:48] <snap-l> Yeah, I don't understand it
[15:48] <snap-l> unless one of the VPs needs their fix of The Oatmeal
[15:49] <_stink_> man, the Oatmeal is really good.
[15:49] <snap-l> after all, he's a published author, you know.
[15:49] <snap-l> So, it's legitimate, or something
[16:26] <greg-g> brousch: no clue :/
[16:27] <greg-g> brousch: I'm not the happiest with how they display those photos, but, whatevs right now
[16:28] <brousch> ok
[16:28] <brousch> looks like default sorting for the group
[16:32] <greg-g> gotcha
[17:04] <rick_h__> http://chrisaitchison.com/2011/05/03/you-are-not-a-software-engineer
[17:04] <rick_h__> for the software peep out there
[17:08] <snap-l> Does this mean I don't get to wear the striped hat, and can't blow the whistle?
[17:09] <wolfger> I *almost* stopped reading before it started making a little sense.
[17:10] <wolfger> He's really stretching a metaphor. Because if you don't plan out "where the petals and leaves will be", your software design scares me.
[17:11] <wolfger> haphazard software is not good. I should know... I've written it. :-p
[17:11] <brousch> coming from the construction industry, the finished building will not look exactly as the architect envisions it
[17:11] <brousch> often because their vision costs too much or is physically impractical
[17:11] <rick_h__> meh, especially if you're agile/agilish, you plan out the big parts
[17:12] <rick_h__> color scheme of the garden, layout, tall/small plants
[17:12] <rick_h__> but it comes out as you work it
[17:12] <wolfger> Right. If you think everything that gets engineered comes out looking like the first blueprint, you're clearly a fool who's never seen what engineering is really like.
[17:13] <rick_h__> you can play it any way, found it interesting
[17:13] <rick_h__> I mean, we don't have to do match on 'will the total structure support the weight of itself...as final weight"
[17:13] <rick_h__> we miss calculate some load numbers we refactor
[17:13] <wolfger> I've been on this one plant launch for 2 years now, and they are still making changes, even though we're "in production". Engineering is a lot more like gardening than this guy thinks.
[17:13] <rick_h__> they forget to count the weight of the drywall...well uh oh
[17:19] <wolfger> now if you're writing unique code from scratch, which is a rarity in the professional world, then the gardener metaphor works better... but in my experience, professional coding is much more like taking pre-made bricks of code and arranging them in a blueprinted formation.
[17:20] <rick_h__> heh, and I can compare that to planting a garden with purchased plants
[17:20] <rick_h__> you build off blocks
[17:24] <wolfger> unless your code grows while you're sleeping, I think the gardening metaphor fails ;-)
[17:24] <wolfger> and if it does....
[17:24] <wolfger> skynet is becoming self-aware. Destroy it now.
[17:27] <brousch> OSS software grows while you sleep, assuming you have developers in other countries
[17:27] <wolfger> LOL
[17:27] <wolfger> well, now you are getting into a cat-herding metaphor :-D
[17:28] <rick_h__> cats like gardens
[17:34] <wolfger> touche
[17:35] <wolfger> a program is not a work of engineering.... it's cat-scratch
[17:35] <wolfger> seeing the apps here at Chrysler supports that theory 100%
[17:42] <snap-l> Seeing the code at Chrysler gives me faith inreverse evolution
[17:42] <snap-l> the theory of survival of the fittest is bunk over there.
[17:44] <wolfger> evidence #1, the TTTS self-service website. I get dangerously close to having a stroke and/or aneurism every time I use it.
[17:45] <wolfger> because the first thing you have to do is select an application, even though selecting an application is something you have to page down to get to
[17:45] <wolfger> and you know you have to, because a popup box tells you so
[17:45] <wolfger> rather than, you know, just popping up a box with the selection dialog
[17:46] <snap-l> That TTS system is garbage
[17:46] <wolfger> so you have to click ok on the box, click the selection dialog button, do a search for the application group code even if you know it by heart and did need the search dialog at all...
[17:47] <wolfger> then as soon as you get done with that, another pop-up says "hey, check your contact info to make sure it's right"
[17:47] <wolfger> even if you just went through all this 30 seconds ago
[17:47] <snap-l> I have to say, most ticket tracking systems are garbage
[17:47] <wolfger> I have "checked my contact info" as many as 6 times in a single day before
[17:47] <snap-l> and corporate catch-all systems are the worst.
[17:48] <wolfger> TTTS makes Bugzilla look elegant
[17:51] <snap-l> I agree, and I hate Bugzilla with a fiery passion
[17:51] <snap-l> Nothing say "we hate our users" more than Bugzilla
[17:59] <wolfger> This isn't a garden, it's an abandoned lot.
[18:00] <wolfger> all stinkweed and danylions
[18:00] <wolfger> and bugs
[18:02] <greg-g> rick_h__: ok if I tweet/dent: "Announcing the new combo Ubuntu Hour/Coffee House Coders in Detroit, MI http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-michigan/events !UbuntuMichigan"
[18:03] <snap-l> wolfger: And every three months, they send someone to groom it, so it isn't considered abandoned and reposessed. ;)
[18:13] <rick_h__> greg-g: sure thing, though was debating on the "new" thing
[18:13] <rick_h__> was trying to figure out a way to word it so that it was clear it's been going down for a while
[18:13] <rick_h__> just not named right
[18:24] <rick_h__> greg-g: http://paste.mitechie.com/show/312/ ??
[18:25] <rick_h__> http://paste.mitechie.com/show/313/ or maybe
[18:31] <snap-l> I like the second one
[18:40] <greg-g> ditto
[18:41] <rick_h__> greg-g: cool, I'll post and then you want to RT?
[18:41] <rick_h__> or was it something you wanted to post?
[18:41] <greg-g> either way..... Mind me?
[18:42] <rick_h__> not at all
[18:42]  * greg-g shryugs
[18:43] <greg-g> posted
[18:46] <ColonelPanic001> I RTed.
[18:47] <ColonelPanic001> I'm sure all two of my linux-related followers will read it
[19:07] <rick_h__> now we just have to keep too many new people from finding out
[19:08] <rick_h__> or I'll have to break down and get a real venue
[19:10] <brousch> put it on the ubuntu-mi mailing list
[19:10] <rick_h__> brousch: stop helping
[19:10] <brousch> it will be awesome when 30 people show up for the next meeting
[19:11] <rick_h__> yea, don't think that whole cofee house holds 30 people
[19:12] <brousch> standing room only. everyone balancing their laptop on one raised knee, typing with one hand, and holding their coffee in the other
[19:14] <ColonelPanic001> our problem at Downriver CHC (read: me and a former coworker) is that the coffeehouse is nice, but has a really flaky internet connection
[19:14] <rick_h__> yea, ours can get bad
[19:14] <brousch> rick_h__ will tether them all on his phone
[19:14] <rick_h__> when I get my 4g
[19:14] <ColonelPanic001> often we resort to just him putting up a wireless net on his phone. yeah
[19:15] <snap-l> Yeah, some evenings we have way too many people there.
[19:15] <snap-l> Not that I'm complaining
[19:15] <brousch> finding bigger coffeehouses can be a problem
[19:16] <rick_h__> yea, you get big enough you rent a room...but then no beverages
[19:16] <brousch> you could encourage people to form smaller groups at various locations
[19:16] <snap-l> And then you get into dues, and pretty soon you're having board meetings.
[19:16] <rick_h__> that's no fun
[19:16] <rick_h__> you never know what the topic is going to be
[19:16] <brousch> who rally wants to drive 30 minutes for an hour meeting?
[19:16] <rick_h__> *ahem*
[19:17] <rick_h__> it's two hours and I do it every week kthx
[19:17] <brousch> with the rename you will have to cut the meeting time down
[19:17] <rick_h__> 12/27 is my upgrade...man end end of the year
[19:19] <brousch> chc meets 7-9?
[19:19] <rick_h__> 8-10
[19:19] <rick_h__> 7-10 on the last one of the week
[19:20] <rick_h__> last week of the month that is
[19:20] <brousch> i want to do one, but i want it to start after my son goes to bed. so it would be 8:30 − 10 probably
[19:22] <brousch> seems so late
[19:22] <rick_h__> yea, it's my latest night of the week
[19:22] <rick_h__> but nice to have that scheduled hacking time every week
[19:22] <brousch> i se there's one in lansing now, so GR is the next logical location
[19:45] <brousch> i just realized we have the perfect spot for a CHC
[19:47] <brousch> and it would actually scale to 30+ pople easily
[19:49] <snap-l> "I used to think that PHP was the biggest, stinkiest dump that the computer industry had taken on my life in a decade. Then I started needing to do things that could only be accomplished in AppleScript."
[19:50] <snap-l> --jwz
[19:50] <brousch> wow
[20:04] <ColonelPanic001> "PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil, perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals."
[20:04] <ColonelPanic001> my favorite
[20:06] <snap-l> And Java is just a miserable mess
[20:13] <greg-g> brousch: awesome re: perfect CHC location, do it! ;)
[20:14] <brousch> i'm talking it over with the venue owners
[20:14] <brousch> they don't technically have a cafe yet
[20:14] <brousch> have to bring ur own coffee
[22:26] <snap-l> http://spaz.spreadshirt.com/what-the-fuck-is-adobe-flash-A6003474/customize/color/2
[22:28] <snap-l> http://steveire.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/octef.jpg
[22:40] <jordon_> apple "geniouses" should wear that shirt
[23:04] <binbrain> I feel like I'm back in 1999, boxing with linux drivers all day