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* GrueMaster patently twiddles thumbs waiting for the meeting to start. | 16:03 | |
ogra_ | patently or petanted ? | 16:04 |
---|---|---|
ogra_ | lol | 16:04 |
ogra_ | *patented | 16:04 |
* rsalveti waves | 16:04 | |
* ogra_ thinks a patent on thimb twiddling could make you rich :) | 16:04 | |
ogra_ | *thumb | 16:05 |
ogra_ | sigh, i shouldnt type today | 16:05 |
* GrueMaster grabs big stick, goes poking upstairs. | 16:05 | |
ogra_ | you really need two cans and a string between your office and his room | 16:05 |
GrueMaster | No, I need to wire his mattress with a remote cattle prod. | 16:06 |
ogra_ | LOL | 16:06 |
NCommander | #startmeeting | 16:06 |
MootBot | Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is NCommander. | 16:06 |
MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 16:06 |
ogra_ | thats clever, so you dont hear his shouting and screaming :) | 16:07 |
* davidm is present | 16:07 | |
NCommander | No real need to link to the discussion as theres oneitem | 16:07 |
NCommander | [topic] Specs! | 16:07 |
MootBot | New Topic: Specs! | 16:07 |
ogra_ | there is one ? | 16:07 |
ogra_ | ah | 16:07 |
* NCommander is not really sure what to discuss at this point which wasn't broughtup last week | 16:08 | |
ogra_ | davidm, any news about the server stuff ? | 16:08 |
ogra_ | do we have any details, does the server team do most of them etc etc ? | 16:08 |
davidm | It will be a mix of us and server team | 16:09 |
davidm | we will be the arm side they have the server expertise | 16:09 |
davidm | Should be interesting | 16:09 |
ogra_ | yeah, i was more intrested in... are there any specs yet ? | 16:09 |
ogra_ | :) | 16:09 |
davidm | There are | 16:09 |
davidm | under server | 16:10 |
GrueMaster | I can dust off a few older systems to act as load generators. | 16:10 |
ogra_ | beyond that generic placeholder we currently have | 16:10 |
davidm | server-o-openstack | 16:10 |
ogra_ | openstack ? | 16:11 |
davidm | That has to be done on both x86 and arm | 16:11 |
ogra_ | hmm, intresting | 16:11 |
* ogra_ is just wearing the t-shirt ... | 16:11 | |
ogra_ | funnily i dont know more about openstack than that they make good shirts :) | 16:11 |
davidm | I'll make a list don't have it handy now | 16:12 |
ogra_ | ok | 16:12 |
janimo | hello, sorry for the delay | 16:12 |
ogra_ | would be good to somehow have the team subscribed to them | 16:12 |
ogra_ | so we know where we have to go | 16:12 |
ogra_ | or at least make sure that in every arm relevant BOF at least one of us is present | 16:13 |
* ogra_ doesnt really have anything else | 16:14 | |
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* NCommander is currently planning to sit on the server BOFs | 16:15 | |
davidm | I';ll make sure to subscribe the team to all of them | 16:15 |
NCommander | is there anything we want to bring up pre-UDS? | 16:18 |
=== arun__ is now known as arun_ | ||
NCommander | If there is nothing else, I"m going to close the meeting | 16:19 |
NCommander | 3 | 16:19 |
NCommander | 2 | 16:19 |
NCommander | 1 | 16:19 |
ogra_ | is there anything i need to bring since i come by car ? | 16:19 |
NCommander | ogra_: yoruself ideally | 16:20 |
ogra_ | finish it ! | 16:20 |
ogra_ | yeah, my car wont come without me, i'm sure | 16:20 |
NCommander | #endmeeting | 16:20 |
ogra_ | :) | 16:20 |
MootBot | Meeting finished at 10:20. | 16:20 |
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bdmurray | okay lets the bugsquad meeting started | 18:01 |
bdmurray | #startmeeting | 18:01 |
MootBot | Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is bdmurray. | 18:01 |
MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 18:01 |
bdmurray | [TOPIC] Updates of action items from previous meeting | 18:02 |
MootBot | New Topic: Updates of action items from previous meeting | 18:02 |
yofel | o/ | 18:02 |
bdmurray | yofel: do you have something? | 18:03 |
yofel | nope, I wasn't assigned to anything last time | 18:03 |
bdmurray | okay | 18:03 |
bdmurray | nigelb said he is still working on edit bugsquad headers to be similar or link to each other appropriately at the end of the last meeting | 18:04 |
bdmurray | bdmurray email bugsquad regarding #ubuntu-bugs channel watchers | 18:04 |
bdmurray | After looking at #ubuntu-bugs channel logs I think we do a pretty good job of responding to people so did not do this. | 18:05 |
bdmurray | bdmurray email bugsquad regarding making +karma more informative | 18:05 |
bdmurray | That was done | 18:06 |
bdmurray | micahg to research available meeting times in #ubuntu-meeting | 18:06 |
hggdh | done also :-) | 18:06 |
bdmurray | well, that was clearly done because here we are! | 18:06 |
davidstrauss-nb | If I'd like to raise a topic, do I just use the [TOPIC] command? | 18:06 |
* davidstrauss-nb is new to bot-moderated meetings | 18:07 | |
bdmurray | davidstrauss-nb: we have an open discussion section later in the meeting | 18:07 |
bdmurray | davidstrauss-nb: I'll change the topic throughout the meeting | 18:07 |
bdmurray | I've also put the next couple of bugsquad meetings on the fridge calendar | 18:07 |
bdmurray | micahg to add multiarch as an official bug tag | 18:08 |
bdmurray | that too was done | 18:08 |
bdmurray | [TOPIC] Mentorship program discussion | 18:08 |
MootBot | New Topic: Mentorship program discussion | 18:08 |
bdmurray | vish: Do you have any news or anything to discuss on that topic? | 18:09 |
vish | oops! | 18:09 |
vish | o/ | 18:09 |
hggdh | :-) | 18:10 |
vish | so, we have been having some progress recently.. | 18:10 |
vish | but we are better than what we were 2 months ago | 18:10 |
vish | sorry, forgot meeting :D | 18:10 |
bdmurray | vish: no problem | 18:11 |
vish | any one else have any other Questions..? | 18:11 |
* hggdh will wait for UDS | 18:11 | |
bdmurray | hggdh: is there something setup for mentorship and UDS? | 18:12 |
hggdh | bdmurray: no, I was considering only informal chats | 18:12 |
bdmurray | ah okay | 18:12 |
bdmurray | moving on | 18:13 |
bdmurray | [TOPIC] New bug control members | 18:13 |
MootBot | New Topic: New bug control members | 18:13 |
bdmurray | We have no new members this week but one application to review although it may need some work | 18:13 |
hggdh | yeah, from Bjoern, right? | 18:14 |
pedro_ | is that the latest from Bjoern? | 18:14 |
yofel | RedSingularity is new to BC | 18:14 |
pedro_ | heh hggdh was faster | 18:14 |
hggdh | at last... | 18:14 |
* vish has one concern about the hardware team application.. | 18:14 | |
bdmurray | yofel: that's right! was just trying to confirm | 18:15 |
bdmurray | congrats to RedSingularity! | 18:15 |
* hggdh approved RedSingularity, and did not remember :-( | 18:15 | |
bdmurray | hggdh: did you send an announce e-mail regarding his joining? | 18:15 |
hggdh | bdmurray: no, with all that was going on I forgot | 18:15 |
hggdh | s/was/is/ | 18:16 |
bdmurray | hggdh: no problem, can you do it this week? If not I can. | 18:16 |
hggdh | yes | 18:16 |
bdmurray | [ACTION] hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol | 18:16 |
MootBot | ACTION received: hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol | 18:16 |
hggdh | vish: you have a concern, can you expand? | 18:16 |
vish | hggdh: i dont think batch approving the hardware team is good, they will be touching every package | 18:17 |
vish | not just a certain subset | 18:17 |
vish | right now, they already have 2 BC members | 18:17 |
yofel | ara said though that they'll review their own members | 18:17 |
vish | right, | 18:17 |
hggdh | and we will review their work | 18:18 |
ScottK | Then it should be easy enough for them to get approved when they think they are ready. | 18:18 |
vish | as I mention they already have 2 BC members, they can just +1 | 18:18 |
yofel | true | 18:18 |
vish | and when the new members grow in that team, their numbers will grow, which makes it easier for review | 18:18 |
hggdh | I do not think they will, this would be gaming the resutls | 18:18 |
vish | batch approving is even worse ;) | 18:19 |
hggdh | heh | 18:19 |
bdmurray | Not more so then adding the whole team | 18:19 |
vish | atleast if the go through the BC process others can review the work | 18:19 |
hggdh | vish: team approval was considered as an option, but we still retain control | 18:19 |
bdmurray | I think this topic, team mebership in bug control, really warrants a larger discussion at UDS | 18:20 |
yofel | vish: then we need new evaluation criteria, as it stands now their applications is fine from our wiki point fo view on the matter | 18:20 |
hggdh | in a certain sense the hardware team is upstream -- they are looking for future issues | 18:20 |
hggdh | I would like, then, to propose we meet during UDS and rediscuss this | 18:20 |
vish | yofel: from what i understand, the team process was when teams were handling their packages or a subset.. not whole Ubuntu | 18:21 |
hggdh | (the process, not the HT itself) | 18:21 |
vish | so maybe as bdmurray mentions this warrants a discussion or update of the wiki | 18:21 |
yofel | having a specific subset isn't a criteria currently, +1 for UDS | 18:22 |
hggdh | +1 | 18:22 |
vish | +1 | 18:22 |
hggdh | vish: be prepared to discuss during beer time also ;-) | 18:22 |
bdmurray | So how about I set up a blueprint in Launchpad and email bug control about it? | 18:22 |
vish | ;) | 18:22 |
hggdh | good idea | 18:22 |
bdmurray | I'll also email Ara since she has an opinion and a couple of other people I've talked to | 18:23 |
bdmurray | Then we can discuss it at UDS | 18:23 |
ScottK | bdmurray: Would you please subscribe me to the spec. | 18:23 |
bdmurray | ScottK: of course | 18:23 |
ScottK | Thanks. | 18:23 |
bdmurray | [ACTION] bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control | 18:24 |
MootBot | ACTION received: bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control | 18:24 |
bdmurray | [ACTION] bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership | 18:24 |
MootBot | ACTION received: bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership | 18:24 |
bdmurray | [ACTION] bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification | 18:25 |
MootBot | ACTION received: bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification | 18:25 |
bdmurray | are we all good there? | 18:25 |
hggdh | and the rest of the gang? | 18:25 |
hggdh | :-) | 18:25 |
bdmurray | hmm, I hope that's in the API now then ;-) | 18:25 |
yofel | just post a link to the bluepirint in the mail and we'll find it :P | 18:25 |
hggdh | meanwhile could we refrain from deciding about the team request? With UDS looming, it does not make sense to decide any way | 18:26 |
davidstrauss-nb | bdmurray, I have to leave in 5 min. Should I just plan to come back in a future meeting? | 18:26 |
hggdh | davidstrauss-nb: you can also add a topic on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting (for future meetings) | 18:26 |
davidstrauss-nb | hggdh, thanks | 18:26 |
bdmurray | davidstrauss-nb: well its now time for open discussions | 18:26 |
davidstrauss-nb | :-) | 18:26 |
hggdh | heh | 18:27 |
bdmurray | [TOPIC] Open Discussions | 18:27 |
MootBot | New Topic: Open Discussions | 18:27 |
hggdh | davidstrauss-nb: go ahead, please | 18:27 |
davidstrauss-nb | So, something happened yesterday on a bug I posted that I found no less than angering. | 18:27 |
davidstrauss-nb | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/775842 | 18:27 |
ubottu | Ubuntu bug 775842 in evolution (Ubuntu) "Evolution crashes when a user changes an account to IMAP+ and clicks OK before the preferences panel changes tabs" [Medium,Incomplete] | 18:27 |
davidstrauss-nb | It was marked as invalid in a sort of drive-by way | 18:28 |
davidstrauss-nb | Not only does this sort of practice make little semantic sense (given the incomplete) option, it's also highly dismissive. | 18:28 |
davidstrauss-nb | Third, it discourages anyone else from participating on the bug because it was preemptively judged "invalid." | 18:29 |
yofel | hm | 18:29 |
ScottK | I'd like to second davidstrauss-nb's concern. While this might have made some vague sense before, now that we have automatic bug expiry, there's no reason not to use incomplete for this. | 18:29 |
hggdh | this needs review, I agree with ScottK | 18:29 |
pedro_ | the workflow needs to be reviewed then | 18:30 |
yofel | it's true that this was the old policy, since apport can't attach crashes to existing bugs, so we usually just closed it and used the new one | 18:30 |
* vish actually finds that the comment has the reason why it was closed | 18:30 | |
yofel | though I personally agree this should be Incomplete | 18:30 |
vish | "a new bug report which can then dealt with more efficiently." | 18:30 |
pedro_ | although crash reports needs to be filed with apport or provide/attach a good backtrace | 18:30 |
hggdh | bdmurray: can we use the same blueprint, expanding it for this? | 18:30 |
bdmurray | hggdh: no that's crazy | 18:31 |
pedro_ | specially for cases like this where the bug is not easy to reproduce | 18:31 |
yofel | then again, a crash bug without any crash information is completely useless, so this bug would've been closed anyway | 18:31 |
vish | yofel: exactly! | 18:31 |
hggdh | and I also agree with pedro_ : crash reports without a crash are -- by definition -- unusable | 18:31 |
ScottK | That doesn't make them invalid. | 18:31 |
bdmurray | well there are steps to recreate it if you happen to have an imap server available | 18:31 |
ScottK | It makes them incomplete. | 18:31 |
hggdh | ScottK: I did not disagree with you, I just pointed the issues. | 18:31 |
hggdh | so we may need to change the SOP *and* the docs | 18:32 |
pedro_ | bdmurray, tried that already, that's why I asked for the backtrace or i would get the backtrace myself like in other reports | 18:32 |
davidstrauss-nb | Even though apport can't attach to old bugs, "incomplete" is still a better classification. Then, the bug can either be (1) augmented with a crash report (2) marked as a dupe of an apport bug, or (3) allowed to expire | 18:32 |
vish | the problem here is maybe we can attach .crash files? | 18:32 |
vish | like as in, just $attach *.crash and it adds the info | 18:32 |
yofel | vish: not really, the retracer has to run, and you can't really make the bug private anymore | 18:32 |
pedro_ | marked it as a duplicate of the newest sounds better to me | 18:33 |
bdmurray | pedro_: oh, perhaps davidstrauss-nb would feel better if he knew that? | 18:33 |
davidstrauss-nb | ideally, apport would encourage you to mark any recent bugs you filed as a dupe of the apport bug | 18:33 |
vish | err, meant "maybe we can't" | 18:33 |
hggdh | davidstrauss-nb: when we have a stacktrace, we can do that -- and we indeed do it | 18:34 |
davidstrauss-nb | bdmurray, What frustrates me is having my trouble report called "invalid" when you're actually just looking for more info. | 18:34 |
yofel | davidstrauss-nb: doesn't make much sense having apport tell you that, we already do, and apport has no way of knowing that you already filed a bug about this issue | 18:34 |
ScottK | If it's marked incomplete instead of invalid, the worst thing that can happen is it goes away in 60 days. | 18:34 |
ScottK | That seems like a small price to pay to avoid the social cost of marking them invalid. | 18:35 |
hggdh | +1 | 18:35 |
yofel | +1 | 18:35 |
vish | ScottK: worse it not fixing the bug ;) | 18:35 |
vish | s/it/is | 18:35 |
bdmurray | ScottK: I find that kind of ironic since all kubuntu bugs end up getting marked invalid in launchpad | 18:35 |
ScottK | vish: I don't understand how that relates. | 18:35 |
ScottK | bdmurray: wontfix might be better for that. | 18:36 |
ScottK | yofel: ^^^ ? | 18:36 |
vish | ScottK: simply closing the bug in 60 days, is not the worse thing :) | 18:36 |
ScottK | vish: Right, but in comparison to marking it invalid. | 18:36 |
yofel | hm... might be, requires BC rights of course then | 18:36 |
hggdh | there is the perceived impact -- ScottK is absolutely correct there | 18:36 |
yofel | yeah, Invalid is hardly ideal in many cases | 18:37 |
davidstrauss-nb | I have to head off, but ScottK was present for my rant yesterday in #launchpad and can reflect my thoughts here. | 18:37 |
davidstrauss-nb | :-) | 18:37 |
vish | maybe we should be fixing this in apport; we can ask the user to apport-collect and if the APPNAME.crash is present it attaches files if not then apport closes the bug? | 18:38 |
yofel | ScottK: agreed with Won't Fix, we need to think what to do about non-BC triagers though (not that we have any currently) | 18:38 |
bdmurray | The problem in my mind with closing Kubuntu bugs is it increases the possibility of duplicate bugs coming in because its hard to find closed bugs. | 18:39 |
yofel | vish: hm, maybe making apport close the bug would be an option, attaching the CoreDump isn't | 18:40 |
yofel | apport won't be able to dup the report though | 18:40 |
vish | yofel: cant apport also set the bug to private? | 18:40 |
yofel | vish: yes, but you have to remove all 'also notified' persons from the subscriber list then | 18:40 |
bdmurray | there are currently issues with transitioning bugs from public to private | 18:40 |
yofel | as 'ubuntu-bugs' is always subscirbed making the bug pretty impossible to make private again | 18:41 |
vish | hmm.. | 18:41 |
yofel | BC members can unsubscribe it though | 18:41 |
bdmurray | it's not just ubuntu-bugs though | 18:41 |
bdmurray | any structural subscriber stays subscribed | 18:41 |
bdmurray | but lets get back on topic | 18:41 |
vish | yea, back to topic "pedro_ sucks" ;p | 18:42 |
vish | we need to update his version... pedro_2.0 | 18:42 |
bdmurray | I think the primary issue here is that invalidating bug reports does not make for a nice bug reporter experience | 18:42 |
ScottK | Agreed. | 18:42 |
bdmurray | With automatic bug expiration and the bug janitor we have ways to make this better | 18:43 |
bdmurray | marginally but still | 18:43 |
bdmurray | So we should review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense | 18:44 |
hggdh | yes | 18:44 |
yofel | right | 18:44 |
vish | btw, does anyone know why Opinion status still exists? | 18:45 |
* vish thought it was a 3month experiment | 18:45 | |
bdmurray | Is there anybody who can volunteer to review the bug workflows? | 18:46 |
hggdh | I will do it -- as long as it is not time-critical (will take a few days) | 18:47 |
bdmurray | hggdh: okay thanks | 18:47 |
bdmurray | [ACTION] hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results | 18:48 |
MootBot | ACTION received: hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results | 18:48 |
bdmurray | vish: I'd check with deryck since he worked on that a fair bit | 18:48 |
vish | ok | 18:48 |
bdmurray | any other business? | 18:49 |
hggdh | minimum we need to update the wiki, where it says opinion is temporary | 18:49 |
* hggdh is done | 18:49 | |
* vish too , medium rare | 18:49 | |
hggdh | LOL | 18:50 |
yofel | do we have blueprints for the bugsquad already? Didn't find much on launchpad yet | 18:50 |
bdmurray | yofel: no, not really. is there something you had in mind? | 18:52 |
yofel | not aside the general roadmap discussions, was just wondering | 18:53 |
bdmurray | yofel: if you could set one up with some discussion ideas we can get it scheduled | 18:54 |
bdmurray | okay, thanks everyone! | 18:56 |
bdmurray | #endmeeting | 18:56 |
MootBot | Meeting finished at 12:56. | 18:56 |
yofel | I'll think about it, I'll ping you when I have something | 18:56 |
yofel | and thanks for chairing bdmurray :) | 18:56 |
bdmurray | yofel: thanks | 18:56 |
pitti | kees, mdz, Keybuk: TB meeting now? | 18:59 |
Keybuk | I think so | 19:00 |
pitti | so cjwatson sent an apology, mdz and sabdfl don't seem to be online, kees doesn't respond, hmm | 19:04 |
Keybuk | I suspect at least some are in budapest being powerpointed to death? | 19:05 |
pitti | the only thing on the ML that I can see is the status of Lubuntu, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-April/000835.html | 19:05 |
pitti | good point | 19:05 |
pitti | Keybuk: hopefully Impressed, not Powerpointed, though :) | 19:05 |
pitti | . o O { latex-beamer FTW } | 19:06 |
Keybuk | as I was saying to slangasek, I went to no-hands once | 19:06 |
Keybuk | around the time I decided to look for other jobs and leave Canonical | 19:06 |
Keybuk | I'm not saying the two are related | 19:06 |
Keybuk | but the inference is there | 19:06 |
* slangasek chuckles | 19:07 | |
slangasek | kees is among the powerpointed, fwiw | 19:07 |
pitti | so, same time in a fortnight? | 19:08 |
Keybuk | sure | 19:09 |
pitti | I updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 19:10 |
* pitti waves good night then | 19:11 | |
kees | I was PDFed mostly | 21:14 |
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