=== jjohansen is now known as jj-afk === fenris__ is now known as Guest78091 === Guest52725 is now known as lag === lag is now known as Guest832 === doko_ is now known as doko === debfx_ is now known as debfx === yofel_ is now known as yofel === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === Pendulum_ is now known as Pendulum === ScottK2 is now known as ScottK === nijaba_afk is now known as nijaba === JanC_ is now known as JanC === Pendulum_ is now known as Pendulum [16:03] * GrueMaster patently twiddles thumbs waiting for the meeting to start. [16:04] patently or petanted ? [16:04] lol [16:04] *patented [16:04] * rsalveti waves [16:04] * ogra_ thinks a patent on thimb twiddling could make you rich :) [16:05] *thumb [16:05] sigh, i shouldnt type today [16:05] * GrueMaster grabs big stick, goes poking upstairs. [16:05] you really need two cans and a string between your office and his room [16:06] No, I need to wire his mattress with a remote cattle prod. [16:06] LOL [16:06] #startmeeting [16:06] Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is NCommander. [16:06] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:07] thats clever, so you dont hear his shouting and screaming :) [16:07] * davidm is present [16:07] No real need to link to the discussion as theres oneitem [16:07] [topic] Specs! [16:07] New Topic: Specs! [16:07] there is one ? [16:07] ah [16:08] * NCommander is not really sure what to discuss at this point which wasn't broughtup last week [16:08] davidm, any news about the server stuff ? [16:08] do we have any details, does the server team do most of them etc etc ? [16:09] It will be a mix of us and server team [16:09] we will be the arm side they have the server expertise [16:09] Should be interesting [16:09] yeah, i was more intrested in... are there any specs yet ? [16:09] :) [16:09] There are [16:10] under server [16:10] I can dust off a few older systems to act as load generators. [16:10] beyond that generic placeholder we currently have [16:10] server-o-openstack [16:11] openstack ? [16:11] That has to be done on both x86 and arm [16:11] hmm, intresting [16:11] * ogra_ is just wearing the t-shirt ... [16:11] funnily i dont know more about openstack than that they make good shirts :) [16:12] I'll make a list don't have it handy now [16:12] ok [16:12] hello, sorry for the delay [16:12] would be good to somehow have the team subscribed to them [16:12] so we know where we have to go [16:13] or at least make sure that in every arm relevant BOF at least one of us is present [16:14] * ogra_ doesnt really have anything else === Pendulum_ is now known as Pendulum [16:15] * NCommander is currently planning to sit on the server BOFs [16:15] I';ll make sure to subscribe the team to all of them [16:18] is there anything we want to bring up pre-UDS? === arun__ is now known as arun_ [16:19] If there is nothing else, I"m going to close the meeting [16:19] 3 [16:19] 2 [16:19] 1 [16:19] is there anything i need to bring since i come by car ? [16:20] ogra_: yoruself ideally [16:20] finish it ! [16:20] yeah, my car wont come without me, i'm sure [16:20] #endmeeting [16:20] :) [16:20] Meeting finished at 10:20. === m4n1sh_ is now known as m4n1sh === yofel_ is now known as yofel [18:01] okay lets the bugsquad meeting started [18:01] #startmeeting [18:01] Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is bdmurray. [18:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [18:02] [TOPIC] Updates of action items from previous meeting [18:02] New Topic: Updates of action items from previous meeting [18:02] o/ [18:03] yofel: do you have something? [18:03] nope, I wasn't assigned to anything last time [18:03] okay [18:04] nigelb said he is still working on edit bugsquad headers to be similar or link to each other appropriately at the end of the last meeting [18:04] bdmurray email bugsquad regarding #ubuntu-bugs channel watchers [18:05] After looking at #ubuntu-bugs channel logs I think we do a pretty good job of responding to people so did not do this. [18:05] bdmurray email bugsquad regarding making +karma more informative [18:06] That was done [18:06] micahg to research available meeting times in #ubuntu-meeting [18:06] done also :-) [18:06] well, that was clearly done because here we are! [18:06] If I'd like to raise a topic, do I just use the [TOPIC] command? [18:07] * davidstrauss-nb is new to bot-moderated meetings [18:07] davidstrauss-nb: we have an open discussion section later in the meeting [18:07] davidstrauss-nb: I'll change the topic throughout the meeting [18:07] I've also put the next couple of bugsquad meetings on the fridge calendar [18:08] micahg to add multiarch as an official bug tag [18:08] that too was done [18:08] [TOPIC] Mentorship program discussion [18:08] New Topic: Mentorship program discussion [18:09] vish: Do you have any news or anything to discuss on that topic? [18:09] oops! [18:09] o/ [18:10] :-) [18:10] so, we have been having some progress recently.. [18:10] but we are better than what we were 2 months ago [18:10] sorry, forgot meeting :D [18:11] vish: no problem [18:11] any one else have any other Questions..? [18:11] * hggdh will wait for UDS [18:12] hggdh: is there something setup for mentorship and UDS? [18:12] bdmurray: no, I was considering only informal chats [18:12] ah okay [18:13] moving on [18:13] [TOPIC] New bug control members [18:13] New Topic: New bug control members [18:13] We have no new members this week but one application to review although it may need some work [18:14] yeah, from Bjoern, right? [18:14] is that the latest from Bjoern? [18:14] RedSingularity is new to BC [18:14] heh hggdh was faster [18:14] at last... [18:14] * vish has one concern about the hardware team application.. [18:15] yofel: that's right! was just trying to confirm [18:15] congrats to RedSingularity! [18:15] * hggdh approved RedSingularity, and did not remember :-( [18:15] hggdh: did you send an announce e-mail regarding his joining? [18:15] bdmurray: no, with all that was going on I forgot [18:16] s/was/is/ [18:16] hggdh: no problem, can you do it this week? If not I can. [18:16] yes [18:16] [ACTION] hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol [18:16] ACTION received: hggdh to announce RedSingularity joining ubuntu-bugcontrol [18:16] vish: you have a concern, can you expand? [18:17] hggdh: i dont think batch approving the hardware team is good, they will be touching every package [18:17] not just a certain subset [18:17] right now, they already have 2 BC members [18:17] ara said though that they'll review their own members [18:17] right, [18:18] and we will review their work [18:18] Then it should be easy enough for them to get approved when they think they are ready. [18:18] as I mention they already have 2 BC members, they can just +1 [18:18] true [18:18] and when the new members grow in that team, their numbers will grow, which makes it easier for review [18:18] I do not think they will, this would be gaming the resutls [18:19] batch approving is even worse ;) [18:19] heh [18:19] Not more so then adding the whole team [18:19] atleast if the go through the BC process others can review the work [18:19] vish: team approval was considered as an option, but we still retain control [18:20] I think this topic, team mebership in bug control, really warrants a larger discussion at UDS [18:20] vish: then we need new evaluation criteria, as it stands now their applications is fine from our wiki point fo view on the matter [18:20] in a certain sense the hardware team is upstream -- they are looking for future issues [18:20] I would like, then, to propose we meet during UDS and rediscuss this [18:21] yofel: from what i understand, the team process was when teams were handling their packages or a subset.. not whole Ubuntu [18:21] (the process, not the HT itself) [18:21] so maybe as bdmurray mentions this warrants a discussion or update of the wiki [18:22] having a specific subset isn't a criteria currently, +1 for UDS [18:22] +1 [18:22] +1 [18:22] vish: be prepared to discuss during beer time also ;-) [18:22] So how about I set up a blueprint in Launchpad and email bug control about it? [18:22] ;) [18:22] good idea [18:23] I'll also email Ara since she has an opinion and a couple of other people I've talked to [18:23] Then we can discuss it at UDS [18:23] bdmurray: Would you please subscribe me to the spec. [18:23] ScottK: of course [18:23] Thanks. [18:24] [ACTION] bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control [18:24] ACTION received: bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control [18:24] [ACTION] bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership [18:24] ACTION received: bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership [18:25] [ACTION] bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification [18:25] ACTION received: bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification [18:25] are we all good there? [18:25] and the rest of the gang? [18:25] :-) [18:25] hmm, I hope that's in the API now then ;-) [18:25] just post a link to the bluepirint in the mail and we'll find it :P [18:26] meanwhile could we refrain from deciding about the team request? With UDS looming, it does not make sense to decide any way [18:26] bdmurray, I have to leave in 5 min. Should I just plan to come back in a future meeting? [18:26] davidstrauss-nb: you can also add a topic on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting (for future meetings) [18:26] hggdh, thanks [18:26] davidstrauss-nb: well its now time for open discussions [18:26] :-) [18:27] heh [18:27] [TOPIC] Open Discussions [18:27] New Topic: Open Discussions [18:27] davidstrauss-nb: go ahead, please [18:27] So, something happened yesterday on a bug I posted that I found no less than angering. [18:27] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/775842 [18:27] Ubuntu bug 775842 in evolution (Ubuntu) "Evolution crashes when a user changes an account to IMAP+ and clicks OK before the preferences panel changes tabs" [Medium,Incomplete] [18:28] It was marked as invalid in a sort of drive-by way [18:28] Not only does this sort of practice make little semantic sense (given the incomplete) option, it's also highly dismissive. [18:29] Third, it discourages anyone else from participating on the bug because it was preemptively judged "invalid." [18:29] hm [18:29] I'd like to second davidstrauss-nb's concern. While this might have made some vague sense before, now that we have automatic bug expiry, there's no reason not to use incomplete for this. [18:29] this needs review, I agree with ScottK [18:30] the workflow needs to be reviewed then [18:30] it's true that this was the old policy, since apport can't attach crashes to existing bugs, so we usually just closed it and used the new one [18:30] * vish actually finds that the comment has the reason why it was closed [18:30] though I personally agree this should be Incomplete [18:30] "a new bug report which can then dealt with more efficiently." [18:30] although crash reports needs to be filed with apport or provide/attach a good backtrace [18:30] bdmurray: can we use the same blueprint, expanding it for this? [18:31] hggdh: no that's crazy [18:31] specially for cases like this where the bug is not easy to reproduce [18:31] then again, a crash bug without any crash information is completely useless, so this bug would've been closed anyway [18:31] yofel: exactly! [18:31] and I also agree with pedro_ : crash reports without a crash are -- by definition -- unusable [18:31] That doesn't make them invalid. [18:31] well there are steps to recreate it if you happen to have an imap server available [18:31] It makes them incomplete. [18:31] ScottK: I did not disagree with you, I just pointed the issues. [18:32] so we may need to change the SOP *and* the docs [18:32] bdmurray, tried that already, that's why I asked for the backtrace or i would get the backtrace myself like in other reports [18:32] Even though apport can't attach to old bugs, "incomplete" is still a better classification. Then, the bug can either be (1) augmented with a crash report (2) marked as a dupe of an apport bug, or (3) allowed to expire [18:32] the problem here is maybe we can attach .crash files? [18:32] like as in, just $attach *.crash and it adds the info [18:32] vish: not really, the retracer has to run, and you can't really make the bug private anymore [18:33] marked it as a duplicate of the newest sounds better to me [18:33] pedro_: oh, perhaps davidstrauss-nb would feel better if he knew that? [18:33] ideally, apport would encourage you to mark any recent bugs you filed as a dupe of the apport bug [18:33] err, meant "maybe we can't" [18:34] davidstrauss-nb: when we have a stacktrace, we can do that -- and we indeed do it [18:34] bdmurray, What frustrates me is having my trouble report called "invalid" when you're actually just looking for more info. [18:34] davidstrauss-nb: doesn't make much sense having apport tell you that, we already do, and apport has no way of knowing that you already filed a bug about this issue [18:34] If it's marked incomplete instead of invalid, the worst thing that can happen is it goes away in 60 days. [18:35] That seems like a small price to pay to avoid the social cost of marking them invalid. [18:35] +1 [18:35] +1 [18:35] ScottK: worse it not fixing the bug ;) [18:35] s/it/is [18:35] ScottK: I find that kind of ironic since all kubuntu bugs end up getting marked invalid in launchpad [18:35] vish: I don't understand how that relates. [18:36] bdmurray: wontfix might be better for that. [18:36] yofel: ^^^ ? [18:36] ScottK: simply closing the bug in 60 days, is not the worse thing :) [18:36] vish: Right, but in comparison to marking it invalid. [18:36] hm... might be, requires BC rights of course then [18:36] there is the perceived impact -- ScottK is absolutely correct there [18:37] yeah, Invalid is hardly ideal in many cases [18:37] I have to head off, but ScottK was present for my rant yesterday in #launchpad and can reflect my thoughts here. [18:37] :-) [18:38] maybe we should be fixing this in apport; we can ask the user to apport-collect and if the APPNAME.crash is present it attaches files if not then apport closes the bug? [18:38] ScottK: agreed with Won't Fix, we need to think what to do about non-BC triagers though (not that we have any currently) [18:39] The problem in my mind with closing Kubuntu bugs is it increases the possibility of duplicate bugs coming in because its hard to find closed bugs. [18:40] vish: hm, maybe making apport close the bug would be an option, attaching the CoreDump isn't [18:40] apport won't be able to dup the report though [18:40] yofel: cant apport also set the bug to private? [18:40] vish: yes, but you have to remove all 'also notified' persons from the subscriber list then [18:40] there are currently issues with transitioning bugs from public to private [18:41] as 'ubuntu-bugs' is always subscirbed making the bug pretty impossible to make private again [18:41] hmm.. [18:41] BC members can unsubscribe it though [18:41] it's not just ubuntu-bugs though [18:41] any structural subscriber stays subscribed [18:41] but lets get back on topic [18:42] yea, back to topic "pedro_ sucks" ;p [18:42] we need to update his version... pedro_2.0 [18:42] I think the primary issue here is that invalidating bug reports does not make for a nice bug reporter experience [18:42] Agreed. [18:43] With automatic bug expiration and the bug janitor we have ways to make this better [18:43] marginally but still [18:44] So we should review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense [18:44] yes [18:44] right [18:45] btw, does anyone know why Opinion status still exists? [18:45] * vish thought it was a 3month experiment [18:46] Is there anybody who can volunteer to review the bug workflows? [18:47] I will do it -- as long as it is not time-critical (will take a few days) [18:47] hggdh: okay thanks [18:48] [ACTION] hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results [18:48] ACTION received: hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results [18:48] vish: I'd check with deryck since he worked on that a fair bit [18:48] ok [18:49] any other business? [18:49] minimum we need to update the wiki, where it says opinion is temporary [18:49] * hggdh is done [18:49] * vish too , medium rare [18:50] LOL [18:50] do we have blueprints for the bugsquad already? Didn't find much on launchpad yet [18:52] yofel: no, not really. is there something you had in mind? [18:53] not aside the general roadmap discussions, was just wondering [18:54] yofel: if you could set one up with some discussion ideas we can get it scheduled [18:56] okay, thanks everyone! [18:56] #endmeeting [18:56] Meeting finished at 12:56. [18:56] I'll think about it, I'll ping you when I have something [18:56] and thanks for chairing bdmurray :) [18:56] yofel: thanks [18:59] kees, mdz, Keybuk: TB meeting now? [19:00] I think so [19:04] so cjwatson sent an apology, mdz and sabdfl don't seem to be online, kees doesn't respond, hmm [19:05] I suspect at least some are in budapest being powerpointed to death? [19:05] the only thing on the ML that I can see is the status of Lubuntu, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-April/000835.html [19:05] good point [19:05] Keybuk: hopefully Impressed, not Powerpointed, though :) [19:06] . o O { latex-beamer FTW } [19:06] as I was saying to slangasek, I went to no-hands once [19:06] around the time I decided to look for other jobs and leave Canonical [19:06] I'm not saying the two are related [19:06] but the inference is there [19:07] * slangasek chuckles [19:07] kees is among the powerpointed, fwiw [19:08] so, same time in a fortnight? [19:09] sure [19:10] I updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda [19:11] * pitti waves good night then [21:14] I was PDFed mostly