[01:00] <jkakar> lifeless: Yeah, I switched them over when I was working as an advisor.
[01:00] <jkakar> lifeless: I haven't found anything better than Launchpad for supporting a process that involves code reviews (which is also something I introduced while I was an advisor).
[01:01] <jkakar> lifeless: In general, I think LP is a great tool for teams.
[01:01] <jkakar> lifeless: I think GitHub has a bit of an advantage for developer-to-developer collaboration, because it's UI is really focused on that problem.
[01:06] <LPCIBot> Project windmill-db-devel build #247: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 8 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/windmill-db-devel/247/
[01:55] <lifeless> jkakar: I'd like us to improve on d2d
[01:55] <lifeless> not sure how
[01:56] <jkakar> lifeless: Yeah, it's a tricky problem.  I think the answer lies in UI.
[01:56] <wgrant> Argh.
[01:57] <wgrant> UnparsableDependencies again :(
[01:57] <jkakar> lifeless: I think the pieces (bugs, reviews, etc.) are all in place... the Launchpad UI needs to make them more powerful.
[01:57] <jkakar> lifeless: I think Launchpad is a bit hamstrung by Ubuntu.  Ubuntu has all kinds of weird and particular requirements that no one else cares about, and that take a lot of energy to maintain...
[01:58] <wgrant> s/maintain/ignore/
[01:58] <wgrant> *cough* Blueprints
[01:58] <jkakar> lifeless: If we didn't have to deal with those problems we'd be able to focus our energy on problems that are more widely felt by users.
[01:58] <jkakar> wgrant: Perhaps, yes.
[01:58] <wgrant> But yes.
[01:59] <jkakar> And I'm not discounting the power of Launchpad in terms of the Ubuntu project.
[01:59] <jkakar> I think it's clear that Ubuntu could exist without Launchpad...
[01:59] <wgrant> Nobody before has tried to combine a distribution and open source project and commercial project everything-tracker, I don't think.
[01:59] <wgrant> And it sort of shows :/
[01:59] <jkakar> But it means that the folks that who use GitHub look at Launchpad and see it as not solving their problem.
[01:59] <jkakar> wgrant: Yeah, it's a tricky problem, for sure.
[02:00] <jkakar> wgrant: I think a big problem is that (and maybe I'm completely wrong here, I hope I am) there is no UI designer focused on Launchpad, focused on making it coherent, and with enough manpower behind them to make real change.
[02:01] <jkakar> wgrant: Launchpad's UI has been getting steadily getting better, but it is also very confusing and could do with a lot of polish/love.
[02:02] <jkakar> I sometimes think we're too driven by technological problems and not enough by user problems.  I guess that's a reality of having a lot of technical debt, which I know Launchpad has and I also know that a tremendous effort has been put in to reducing it.
[02:02] <wgrant> We are now actually in a position where we can reduce it, and we are doing so.
[02:02] <jkakar> It does feel like we're getting to a point where we'll be seeing the benefits of that investment, though.
[02:02] <wgrant> lifeless has saved the world, again.
[02:02] <jkakar> wgrant: Yeah, that's my sense too.
[02:03] <jkakar> wgrant: It's a tricky problem and I think the team has done an excellent job in tackling it head on.
[02:03] <jkakar> That said, systems like GitHub, which I guess don't have that same problem, seem to be moving forward quickly.
[02:03] <wgrant> GitHub doesn't have massive tech debt and design flaws from 2004 :(
[02:04] <jkakar> In Fluidinfo, for example, we use Launchpad but we're talking about doing some interesting things and I see people saying, "In order for this to work we'd have to ditch Launchpad... because the crowds are at GitHub."
[02:04] <jkakar> wgrant: Yep.
[02:04] <wgrant> They also do a lot less.
[02:04] <jkakar> Yep.
[02:04] <wgrant> But they do most of it well, or at least shinily.
[02:04] <jkakar> But also, Launchpad does much more than most people care about.
[02:04] <jkakar> And the things that most people care about, it doesn't do amazingly well.
[02:05] <jkakar> I still think Launchpad is the best collaboration tool for teams... but I don't feel confident saying that for individuals.
[02:05] <jkakar> It's tricky business having a large and varied audience to cater to.
[02:06] <jkakar> Okay, bedtime here.  Thanks for being awesome, folks. :)
[02:23] <LPCIBot> Project windmill-devel build #47: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 7 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/windmill-devel/47/
[04:34] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[04:34] <LPCIBot> Project db-devel build #524: FIXED in 5 hr 12 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/db-devel/524/
[05:20] <LPCIBot> Project windmill-db-devel build #248: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 7 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/windmill-db-devel/248/
[09:36] <LPCIBot> Project windmill-db-devel build #249: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 7 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/windmill-db-devel/249/
[09:47] <LPCIBot> Project db-devel build #525: FAILURE in 5 hr 13 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/db-devel/525/
[10:50] <poolie> lifeless, hi?
[11:11] <poolie> is there a global acl on dev.l.n?
[11:11] <poolie> skaet doesn't seem able to edit anything
[14:59] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[14:59] <LPCIBot> Project db-devel build #526: FIXED in 5 hr 11 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/db-devel/526/
[16:17] <jml> poolie: on https://code.launchpad.net/~mbp/launchpad/feature-install-cleanup/+merge/60279, should you be using u'on' rather than 'on'?
[16:17]  * jml doesn't know
[16:17] <jml> but the old code did.
 poolie: on https://code.launchpad.net/~mbp/launchpad/feature-install-cleanup/+merge/60279, should you be using u'on' rather than 'on'?
[16:43] <poolie> hi jml
[16:43] <poolie> good question
[16:44] <jml> the old code did. I don't really know the answer myself.
[16:44] <poolie> the names and values are unicode
[16:44] <poolie> the code using it would have to be being unusually pedantic to notice, but it's possible
[16:44] <poolie> i'll fix it
[16:57] <jml> poolie: thanks.
[16:57] <jml> poolie: can you land branches, or should I land it for you?
[16:58] <poolie> i can!
[16:58] <poolie> it took a few attempts but i'm pretty sure it will work now
[16:58] <jml> poolie: sweet.
[17:03] <poolie> indeed
[17:06] <poolie> thanks for the speedy review
[21:11] <lifeless_> poolie: storm and pythons postgresql driver are unusually pedantic
[21:12] <poolie> hi
[21:12] <poolie> it probably wouldn't be comparing that string, and if the test passes i guess it's not rejecting it from the update
[21:12] <poolie> statement
[21:12] <poolie> but i changed it anyhow
[21:16] <poolie> my attempt to land was blocked by https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/750274
[21:16] <_mup_> Bug #750274: librarian.txt fails sometimes <build-infrastructure> <librarian> <spurious-test-failure> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/750274 >
[21:16] <lifeless> poolie: I haven't looked at the diff; was just letting you know
[21:16] <poolie> hopefully it will pass on a second attempt
[21:16] <poolie> thansk
[21:17] <lifeless> jml: hi
[21:17] <lifeless> jml: are we going to try to complete that catchup before the ensemble call; I think it has bearing on how to try to do it
[21:18] <lifeless> jml: e.g. can we do it on monday morning
[21:18] <lifeless> poolie: I'm having trouble finding skaet online ; if she would like to chat she can ping me anytime
[21:19] <lifeless> poolie: also yes there is an acl on help.lp.net; spammers love that site
[21:20] <lifeless> poolie: do you know here lp username ?
[21:20] <poolie> skaet
[21:20] <poolie> but perhaps oh i don't know
[21:20] <poolie> ~canonical could be added or something?
[21:21] <lifeless> I don't know the history
[21:21] <lifeless> I'll add her now
[21:21] <lifeless> and probably talk to flacoste / mrevell when I see them about ~canonical
[22:49] <lifeless> wgrant: how big is the supportted archive, do you know?