[00:24] <Logan_> Should https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingFlock be deleted?  That browser is no longer in development, and the homepage doesn't have any download links anymore.
[00:26] <MrChrisDruif> Logan_; Maybe a note in the top with this comment?
[00:26] <Logan_> Hmm, I guess that would work.
[00:27] <MrChrisDruif> Logan_; There are always unseen links to a page, so don't delete a page suddenly...
[00:27] <Logan_> I don't have deletion rights, of course.
[00:27] <MrChrisDruif> Can't explain it properly atm...tired/bit tipsy
[00:27] <Logan_> I would just tag it for deletion. :P
[00:30] <zkriesse> Logan_: Tagging it for deletion would be awesome thanks
[00:31] <Logan_> I don't seem to have consensus for that. :P
[00:31] <Logan_> But you're part of the editing group, so...
[00:33] <Logan_> zkriesse: Done.
[00:33] <zkriesse> Lol
[00:34] <Logan_> :P
[00:44] <MrChrisDruif> Tagging for deletion....okay
[05:47] <Captainkrtek> anyone around?
[08:37] <mdke> anyone know how I can test yelp in another language without logging out and back in with the other language?
[08:38] <mdke> in the old days "LANG=it yelp" was good enough but it doesn't seem to work now
[08:39] <mdke> ah, it's "LANGUAGE=it yelp"
[08:39] <mdke> nm
[08:39] <jbicha> mdke: I had trouble with that today too
[08:40] <jbicha> oh, LANGUAGE isn't intuitive
[08:40] <DarkwingDuck> As a KDE user, how is Yelp as a full program?
[08:40] <jbicha> what do you mean, yelp works, right?
[08:40] <mdke> DarkwingDuck: I haven't tried it on kde
[08:41] <DarkwingDuck> We don't use Yelp over on our side.
[08:42] <DarkwingDuck> But, we are having issues with KHelpCenter and are trying to... figure out what to do about it.
[08:43] <DarkwingDuck> And dammit, it wont run without a bunch of extras i dont' want to install... Hmmz.
[08:43] <mdke> I think a lot of stuff has been stripped out of yelp in version 3 and put in a cross desktop compatible backend
[08:44] <mdke> so it wouldn't be too hard to develop a non-gtk frontend, I'll bet
[08:44] <DarkwingDuck> It's  built off of GTK isn't it?
[08:44] <mdke> but shaunm is the guy to talk to
[08:44] <DarkwingDuck> Well, with KDE being Qt and there seems to be a push for Ubuntu to start heading to the Qt toolkit
[08:46] <jbicha> I like how yelp & mallard works for the most part, khelpcenter just seems more out of date
[08:47] <jbicha> but it would take a lot of people to agree to overhaul khelpcenter
[08:47] <DarkwingDuck> We ahve th people and we are going to start doing it.
[08:48] <MrChrisDruif> So yelp is a back end which currently only has a gtk frond end?
[08:48] <MrChrisDruif> Still one package I think, so that would need to be cut loose and a Qt front end attached as well
[08:51] <jbicha> yes, I'm sure shaunm would love to have an alternate viewer for mallard
[08:52] <jbicha> & it's good for everyone to have KDE & GNOME move closer together in this
[08:58] <mdke> MrChrisDruif: there are some things in separate packages, like yelp-xsl for example
[08:58]  * mdke -> work
[14:44] <j1mc> hey all - the docs session went pretty well earlier today. the drupal platform seems pretty neat, and it can do some pretty neat stuff.
[14:44] <j1mc> we had david planella there, as well as a server guy and matthew nuuzum (sp?) from the group at canonical that handles drupal stuff.
[14:45] <j1mc> they asked some good questions, and gave some good feedback.
[14:45] <j1mc> but we need to evaluate this as a team and see if it could work with our requirements and workflow.
[14:46] <j1mc> the server guy was david walker
[15:27] <j1mc> jbicha: howdy
[15:30] <shaunm> MrChrisDruif, DarkwingDuck: I'm totally open to discussing ways more code can be shared. yelp's internals are in a separate library, libyelp, although it's not packages separately yet
[15:31] <shaunm> libyelp is a glib/gtk library though. it's conceivable it could be split into two libraries, a no-toolkit libyelp and a libyelp-gtk
[15:31] <shaunm> then a libyelp-qt could be developed
[15:32] <MrChrisDruif> I think KDE users would appreciate that :)
[15:33] <shaunm> I don't know what kde's stance on glib is though. the thought of writing a C library without glib makes me shudder
[15:34] <j1mc> whois MrChrisDruif
[15:34] <j1mc> hehe
[15:34]  * MrChrisDruif doesn't know that either,,,,, shaunm 
[15:34] <j1mc> hi shaunm
[15:34] <j1mc> hi DarkwingDuck
[15:34] <j1mc> and hi MrChrisDruif
[15:34] <MrChrisDruif> j1mc; I'm me :)
[15:34] <j1mc> :)
[15:34] <DarkwingDuck> Hey guys
[15:35] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha DarkwingDuck
[15:35] <MrChrisDruif> :)
[15:35] <DarkwingDuck> I'm getting sleepy LOL
[15:35] <j1mc> DarkwingDuck: there was a Kubuntu docs session, but it was scheduled at the same time as my last docs session, so i missed it.
[15:35] <shaunm> or, you know, maybe it's ok to have separate libraries. we can still share the rendering code in yelp-xsl. there's nothing gnome-specific about that, except that it's hosted on gnome.org
[15:35] <DarkwingDuck> j1mc: it was more internal review and todos for the kubuntu guys
[15:36] <DarkwingDuck> shaunm: I'll bring it up with the Kubunut guys... we are just sick of KDE HElp Center
[15:37] <shaunm> DarkwingDuck: while you're at it: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2010-April/011443.html
[15:38] <shaunm> nixternal and I put that together. it was a shared effort from the outset. but then he kind of disappeared for a while
[15:39] <DarkwingDuck> nixternal is fairly gone these days.
[15:40] <DarkwingDuck> I've taken over for him in Kubuntu... i don't know who is doing KDE upstream stuff these days
[15:40] <DarkwingDuck> shaunm: I remember when this happened... I'll review again.
[15:42] <shaunm> is Cornelius still doing khelpcenter work?
[15:43] <shaunm> KDE has a SoC student doing khelpcenter work this year, right?
[15:43] <shaunm> actually, wasn't he going to UDS. j1mc, weren't you meeting up with him?
[15:44] <DarkwingDuck> shaunm: I know that apachelogger was talking about getting some things.
[15:44] <DarkwingDuck> changed in khelpcenter
[15:46] <j1mc> i have talked with him very briefly, and he attended the docs goals session
[15:46] <j1mc> but we haven't talked extensively, and our sessions overlapped today
[15:48] <shaunm> ok
[15:49] <DarkwingDuck> Okay, I've been up all night. I'm crashing
[15:50] <j1mc> i do want to still talk with apachelogger, though.
[15:52] <j1mc> ok, i found him in kubuntu-devel, and we're making arrangements to meet
[15:52] <shaunm> excellent
[15:53] <shaunm> (damn hackfests getting in the way of him coming to open help :P)
[15:55] <j1mc> yeah
[15:55] <j1mc> shaunm: the provonix guy is interested in hosting another openhelp conference in europe. ??
[15:56] <shaunm> he is?
[15:56] <j1mc> yeah
[15:56] <j1mc> would that be cool w/ you?
[15:57] <j1mc> he said he's trying to do a virtual session at your conference, too.
[15:57] <shaunm> yeah, he said something about friday evening, which I suppose is his evening, which is our mid-day
[15:58] <shaunm> the conference isn't even really happening at that point
[15:58] <j1mc> oh, like... it hasn't started yet?
[15:58] <shaunm> and we kind of decided not to do a virtual session with mairin (who I really wanted to have there)
[15:58] <shaunm> there's a reception friday at 7. that's the start of the conference
[15:58] <j1mc> right
[15:59] <shaunm> but the reception is just a reception. there's no projector and screens and seats
[15:59] <j1mc> yeah
[15:59] <j1mc> plus, reception =! conference talk time
[15:59] <shaunm> but look, if he's going to do this presentation friday US-mid-day anyway, and it's going to be streamed, I have no problem mentioning that to the OH attendees in an email
[15:59] <j1mc> well, i'll let you two iron that out.
[16:00] <shaunm> "Getting in early? Go sit in the lounge with your laptop and watch this webcast."
[16:00] <shaunm> I'll email him
[16:00] <j1mc> with mairin ... we were asking her, but here is someone who really wants to do it.
[16:01] <shaunm> I'm kind of concerned about having a second conference though
[16:01] <j1mc> it would be great if we could accommodate him somehow
[16:01] <j1mc> ok
[16:01] <j1mc> what is concerning?
[16:02] <shaunm> not trying to be possessive. it's just that the turnout is lower than I'd hoped, and I think with good hype this year, turnout next year can get up to 50 or so. but if there's a second conference, most people won't do both. so that splits the audience
[16:03] <j1mc> yeah... that's a good point. i can understand that.
[16:04] <shaunm> I would actually love for there to be two well-attended conferences. I just don't think, at this point, that two would be well-attended
[16:05] <j1mc> i need to go to apachelogger's thing, but i'll be back on in a little bit
[16:14] <jbicha> shaunm: are you still here
[16:14] <jbicha> we had a help question in #ubuntu-uds-dery
[16:38] <shaunm> jbicha: sure, what's the question?
[16:38] <jbicha> they were just wondering about http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gGsetttk-devel-list/2011-April/msg00141.html
[16:39] <jbicha> well that link doesn't work
[16:39] <jbicha> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2011-April/msg00141.html
[16:39] <jbicha> I wasn't really following exactly what they were discussing
[16:41] <shaunm> well, it's somewhat technical, has to do with how programmers construct buttons and menus for help
[16:42] <shaunm> right now, when a developer creates a help menu, he populates it statically with some entries. usually "Contents" (ugh) and "About"
[16:43] <shaunm> with the GHelp API, he'd create a help menu, but wouldn't put anything in it. instead, he'd say "the URI for my help is help:gnome-help, and call this menu 'my-main-menu'"
[16:43] <jbicha> and Ubuntu likes to add the launchpad stuff
[16:44] <shaunm> then, in our mallard files, we would tag pages. so for any page we want to show up in that menu, we'd add <facet:tag key="g-help-tag" values="my-main-menu"/>
[16:44] <jbicha> I think part of why they were interested is they would rather push 1 patch to gtk than dozens of patches to different apps
[16:44] <shaunm> when you launch the app, the help document is read (probably from a cache, for performance), and the menus are populated automatically
[16:44] <jbicha> you can talk to them if you like, I'm not really a decisionmaker :-)
[16:45] <shaunm> ah, I see
[16:45] <shaunm> it's conceivable the help menu could also have a way to automatically add something static like that
[16:45] <jbicha> context-sensitive help would be nice but I don't see the context of the Help menu changing that much
[16:46] <jbicha> yeah, they just want to be able to insert the program's name so that users can click a button
[16:46] <jbicha> to report a problem and it automatically starts the report-bug stuff for that app
[16:50] <shaunm> actually, I think there's a lot of potential places to change the tag on the help menu
[16:50] <shaunm> there's also a help button in this API. and that could change for e.g. a button in a tabbed dialog
[16:51] <shaunm> for menus, consider a program like evolution, a shell for like five different programs
[16:52] <shaunm> or a word processor. it could add a tag for table operations if your cursor happens to be in a table, for example
[16:52] <jbicha> oh ok
[16:52] <jbicha> I'm just used to that never changing :_)
[16:52] <jbicha> :-)
[16:52] <shaunm> yeah, I like changing everything
[19:16] <UndiFineD> hey guys, the wiki supports using an alternative editor right ? how about reworking fckeditor to produce mallard ?