[00:45] <ali1234> i have a problem with dynamic quicklists...
[00:46] <ali1234> basically i want to add a lot of items, but the number of items might change
[00:46] <ali1234> i tried to do it by building a whole new Dbusmenu.Menuitem
[00:46] <ali1234> but when i send it over, it doesn't reaplce the old one
[00:47] <ali1234> is that how it's supposed to work? if so, can i somehow delete all the existing items in it and start again?
[00:51] <ali1234> for item in ql.get_children(): ql.child_delete(item)
[00:51] <ali1234> this seemed like a likely way to do it, but it segfaults
[01:25] <ali1234> hmm in fact ql.get_children() segfaults even if you justtry to print the result
[01:29] <ali1234> http://pastebin.com/81zEtNxN
[01:32] <ali1234> not sure what to report this against
[02:24] <coz_>  hey all
[17:48] <MaximLevitsky> Will unity support applets?
[17:52] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  I believe they are  "indicators"  now
[17:52] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  in classic gnome 11.04  they work
[17:52] <MaximLevitsky> sure
[17:53] <MaximLevitsky> but classic gnome is going to disappear right?
[17:53] <kklimonda> applets are not indicators, and it's unlikely that unity will support applets
[17:53] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  at some point,, gnome2 will diddappear
[17:53] <coz_> kklimonda,   wasnt sure of the correct terminology for them
[17:53] <coz_> on Unity
[17:53] <MaximLevitsky> then how can I see temperature status?
[17:54] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  here are a few tweaks for Unity   I believe weather is one of them
[17:54] <coz_> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/04/things-to-tweak-fix-after-installing.html
[17:54] <kklimonda> someone will have to write an indicator for it (if there isn't one already)
[17:55] <coz_> ah appindicators is what I was looking for
[17:56] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  there is a weather indicator that should work
[17:56] <coz_> sudo apt-get install indicator-weather
[17:56] <MaximLevitsky> I said about CPU temperature
[17:57] <MaximLevitsky> and GPU
[17:57] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,     ah I was thinking  "temperature"   =  weather
[17:58] <kklimonda> I've had a nifty idea how to  put cpu/gpu temperature in the launcher, but API isn't here (and won't be)
[17:58] <kklimonda> MaximLevitsky: there is at least one project that provides an appindicator for cpu/gpu temperature
[17:59] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  if you read the posts below on that link ,, the fellow  found an indicator that works and will post it to Webupd8  ppa
[17:59] <MaximLevitsky> ok, that issue is solved, although usability wise, unity _needs_ add applet menu
[18:00] <MaximLevitsky> also I want to make the sidebar really small
[18:00] <MaximLevitsky> ccsm only allows 32x32 icons
[18:01] <MaximLevitsky> it still not enough to put much launchers there
[18:01] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  you are setting launcher size via ccsm/
[18:01] <MaximLevitsky> yes, but it maximum 32x32, still large
[18:01] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  you probably could edit the xml  file for that
[18:02] <coz_> let me see if I can find it
[18:04] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  looks like it can be set to a smaller size in the unitshell.xml   with ghex   find   32  that can probably be set much smaller from there
[18:05] <coz_> /usr/share/compiz
[18:05] <MaximLevitsky> here is my desktop (I use gnome2 now,just can't use unity) :http://imageshack.us/f/864/screenshotju.png/
[18:06] <MaximLevitsky> I want to have the same information on the screen without loosing or gaining screen space
[18:06] <MaximLevitsky> I want to have 'Places' menu on the panel
[18:06] <kklimonda> you can't
[18:06] <MaximLevitsky> why?
[18:06] <MaximLevitsky> unity is supposed to be more usable
[18:07] <MaximLevitsky> I want to convince myself that it is
[18:07] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  something like this...yes?   http://lifehacker.com/5794701/add-places-menu-functionality-to-ubuntus-unity-launcher
[18:07] <kklimonda> usability does not equal flexibility
[18:07] <coz_> ??
[18:09] <kklimonda> you won't be able to recreate every gnome2 experience in unity or gnome3 - it's not the goal of either of them.
[18:09] <MaximLevitsky> no, I don't want to recreate them
[18:09] <MaximLevitsky> I want to do same tasks with at least same amount of effor
[18:09] <MaximLevitsky> or less if unity is more usable
[18:10] <MaximLevitsky> for example I do like the slim scroll bars
[18:10] <MaximLevitsky> they take less space but provide same performance
[18:10] <coz_> yeah those are the most  unique idea in Unity,, my opinion
[18:10] <coz_> certainly the most creative one
[18:10] <kklimonda> you want to get the same (or comparable) experience to your heavily tweaked (at least the part I've seen, slow and unreliable connection) gnome 2 session.
[18:10] <MaximLevitsky> the only, more correctly
[18:11] <coz_> :)
[18:11] <MaximLevitsky> nope, my desktop isn't tweaked at all
[18:11] <MaximLevitsky> all I have is;
[18:11] <MaximLevitsky> a set of launchers
[18:11] <MaximLevitsky> cpu & temperature monitor
[18:12] <MaximLevitsky> and thats all
[18:12] <MaximLevitsky> the rest is standard
[18:12] <kklimonda> yes, and that's a eavy tweaking according to gnome and unity devs
[18:12] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  here is my Unity desktop   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/screenshots/Screenshot.png
[18:12] <kklimonda> you should see the recent discussion about control panel in gnome3
[18:13] <MaximLevitsky> kklimonda: in that case, unity devs needs their heads examined. sorry but that is the truth
[18:13] <kklimonda> (there is an appindicator for cpu temperature, but I don't know how well it works)
[18:13] <coz_> most I read about it withouth testing , seems to indicate it is not working
[18:14] <kklimonda> well, both gnome3 and unity clearly target some audience, and unfortunately old linux folks are not it.
[18:14] <coz_> I am going to give Unity some time to improve
[18:14] <kklimonda> unity folks did at least two rounds of usability testing
[18:14] <MaximLevitsky> kklimonda: nope they target an intersection between two foregein groups
[18:14] <kklimonda> so it's getting "there"
[18:15] <kklimonda> the problem is it's not there yet, and it shouldn't really be released as a stable product. but then in my opinion we should rename normal "stable" releases as technology previews.
[18:15] <coz_>  I wonder what will happen to gnome  when the netbook / tablet interface trend fades?
[18:16] <MaximLevitsky> the point it that due to shear amount of bugs, only 'pros' can use linux regardless of position of buttons on their desktops
[18:16] <kklimonda> I'm not convinced that tablets will "fade" ever.
[18:16] <MaximLevitsky> I fixed ton of bugs, and even some in the kernel
[18:16] <MaximLevitsky> and there another ton that I don't have patience to fix
[18:16] <coz_> kklimonda,  well they did go through that phase long ago... i had  several windows 95  tablets  they didnt last long at all
[18:17] <coz_> its an old idea
[18:17] <kklimonda> but they were different, new tablets are focused on consuming culture and that's it.
[18:17] <coz_> mmm
[18:17] <coz_> ok
[18:17] <coz_> sort of makes sense
[18:17] <kklimonda> MS was trying to sell tablets to business, and it did fail miserably
[18:17] <coz_> kklimonda,  for sure
[18:17] <kklimonda> but new tablets are aimed at consmers who only want to watch movies, and listen to their music
[18:18] <coz_> well there is also th e grphics community who use pen tablets for  on the move sketching
[18:18] <kklimonda> the problem I see with that is we are focusing on the group of users who won't give a damn about foss other than it being free as in beer.
[18:19] <MaximLevitsky> and, this group won't be able to use linux
[18:19] <kklimonda> there is that too
[18:19] <coz_>  i dont know.. i lie inovation,, I just dont see it here other thatn the overlay scrollbar thing
[18:19] <MaximLevitsky> because; nouveau is broken, wifi is broken, skype is broken, suspend is broken, gnome power manager is broken....
[18:19] <coz_> like  not lie
[18:19] <MaximLevitsky> thats is the usability
[18:20] <coz_> MaximLevitsky, :)  is that all ?  I was sure more was broken :)
[18:20] <MaximLevitsky> bugs are the the reason of bad linux usablity
[18:20] <MaximLevitsky> coz_: sure but I couldn't write more
[18:20] <coz_> :)
[18:20] <MaximLevitsky> that what I had on my desktop. and more
[18:20] <coz_> well at least the cube can now be had on Unity ,, that made a diffrence for me
[18:21] <MaximLevitsky> my wifi card would oops when I first installed ubuntu
[18:21] <MaximLevitsky> sure I knew where to report that
[18:21] <MaximLevitsky> but that noob will just install windows
[18:21] <coz_> this is true
[18:22] <MaximLevitsky> to target noobs there is _no_ need in unity. there is need in less bugs
[18:22] <MaximLevitsky> boy how many bugs linux has, it can't be counted
[18:22] <coz_> my clients I have switched to ubuntu,,, already dont like unity,, and if I was not around they would have reinstalled windows
[18:22] <kklimonda> I'm fairly sure that Canonical is not aiming at desktops anymore
[18:22] <MaximLevitsky> even evince often doesn't display PDFs for my homeworks
[18:22] <kklimonda> so no installing Windows for those poor folks for whom Ubuntu doesn't work ;)
[18:22] <coz_> that's a mistake
[18:23] <MaximLevitsky> I report the bugs, but that doesn't help at all
[18:23] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,   they are not being  considered>?
[18:25] <kklimonda> even if they are fixed, it doesn't help random folks who don't know how to apply the fix.
[18:25] <MaximLevitsky> and this is how I am treated when I fix a bug:
[18:25] <MaximLevitsky> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-power-manager/+bug/616443
[18:26] <kklimonda> (not to mention that fixing bugs is booring and most foss developers have short atten.. oh, SHINEY!)
[18:26] <MaximLevitsky> btw that bug affect anyone
[18:27] <MaximLevitsky> you just need to boot without battery and insert it
[18:27] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  not here I dont use  batter appindicator
[18:27] <coz_> battery
[18:27] <MaximLevitsky> its worse
[18:28] <MaximLevitsky> if you then remove the battery g-p-m will still think you have it
[18:28] <kklimonda> well, to be honest the bug doesn't really sound like something critical to fix (at least from description)
[18:28] <MaximLevitsky> but I fixed it
[18:28] <kklimonda> g-p-m or the indicator?
[18:28] <MaximLevitsky> its in g-p-m
[18:28] <MaximLevitsky> its not an indicator bug
[18:28] <kklimonda> well, if you fixed it then you should really forward the patch to gnome bugzilla
[18:29] <kklimonda> and after months of it just lying there someone will comment on it (or faster, if you knw who to poke ;))
[18:29] <MaximLevitsky> sure
[18:29] <MaximLevitsky> I know how to push a fix for a bug
[18:30] <MaximLevitsky> its just bad that one has to put pretty much same or even more effor for pushing it that fixing it
[18:31] <MaximLevitsky> patches should be welcome and ubuntu should try to reward as much as possible the submitters. thats one of the way to make sure there are less bugs
[18:31] <MaximLevitsky> at least monitor and accept the patches
[18:31] <kklimonda> that's a nice theory, and we try to do what we can, but there are simply much more patches than ubuntu developers who can review them.
[18:32] <MaximLevitsky> nope
[18:32] <MaximLevitsky> my bugreport was reviewed
[18:32] <MaximLevitsky> and closed as duplicate, without forwarding it to other bug at least
[18:32] <MaximLevitsky> thats just an isult
[18:32] <MaximLevitsky> insult
[18:33] <MaximLevitsky> mind you I wrote 3 kernel drivers, and fixed suspend to ram to series of acer notebooks
[18:33] <MaximLevitsky> on series
[18:34] <MaximLevitsky> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/160763
[18:35] <kklimonda> not by a developer, but by some random person. Also, this is obviously an upstream issue, and should be fixed there (and pach tagged properly, so it's obvious that it's fixed upstream).
[18:36] <kklimonda> (when it has been marked as a duplicate of another bug it disappeared from the sponsoring list, so no one really reviewed it)
[18:38] <MaximLevitsky> look I reported a lot of g-p-m issues: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-ubuntu/+bug/619816
[18:38] <MaximLevitsky> Mark Shuttleworth even replied to me. Yet whole version passed. no issues fixed
[18:38] <MaximLevitsky> thats is usability
[18:39] <MaximLevitsky> and ubuntu has none of it
[18:39] <MaximLevitsky> really after about 6 years of linux I seriosly consider switching to windows
[18:40] <MaximLevitsky> I tried KDE but I can't seem get used to it again
[18:40] <MaximLevitsky> And for me Unity is the tripping point
[18:41] <MaximLevitsky> If gnome2 UI disappers and unity is still what it is, I couldn't stand it anymore
[18:42] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  there is always kde :(
[18:42] <kklimonda> it's not like you really have much of a choice.
[18:42] <kklimonda> it's either gnome3 or unity
[18:42] <kklimonda> both have their issues currently.
[18:42] <coz_> whic is   sor "foreign"  an expression for linux
[18:42] <MaximLevitsky> coz_: KDE is somewhat slow, and I can't get used to it
[18:42] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  dont blame you
[18:43] <MaximLevitsky> and I still have to run many gnome apps in kde
[18:43] <MaximLevitsky> that increases memory usage
[18:43] <MaximLevitsky> I am *not* against mixing apps like I said, that just increases memory usage
[18:43] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  I use a few kde apps in gnome,, I like it ,, I havent seen much in terms of memory useage,,, the other way around maybe
[18:43] <MaximLevitsky> coz_: I mean when I use KDE
[18:44] <MaximLevitsky> I also use many gnome apps
[18:44] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  yeah  I believe that
[18:44] <MaximLevitsky> for example pidgin
[18:44] <kklimonda> I acrually am "against" mixing toolkits.
[18:44] <coz_> I was actually hooked on edubuntu for while
[18:44] <MaximLevitsky> kopete was my IRC client, but it doesn't support now it
[18:45] <MaximLevitsky> in fact none of KDE or Gnome IRC clients look nice for me. Its a taste matter probably
[18:45] <MaximLevitsky> also firefox is more or less GTK
[18:46] <MaximLevitsky> could switch to google chrome through
[18:46] <MaximLevitsky> also evolution is the fastest and the sucks the less for imap gmail access
[18:47] <MaximLevitsky> I used kmail, thunderbird, evolution, and even outlook express
[18:47] <MaximLevitsky> all suck
[18:47] <MaximLevitsky> but evolution the less
[18:47] <ali1234> meeeeeh
[18:47] <ali1234> i wouldn't agree that evolution is the best
[18:48] <kklimonda> evolution has stopped working for me recently :/
[18:48] <ali1234> but the difference is so small, none of them are usable in my opinion
[18:48] <coz_> :) what's interesting , is,, in most ubuntu related channels ,, not only is Unity overwhelmingly disliked,, but it brings up a "mood"  venting about other things that suck,, most likely because "choice" has been further dimininshed in linux
[18:48] <ali1234> i only use the web interface
[18:48] <kklimonda> coz_: linux has never been about this kind of choice.
[18:48] <MaximLevitsky> coz_: exactly
[18:48] <MaximLevitsky> uninty makes linux suck even more
[18:48] <ali1234> i've been using unity for about a month now and i am starting to come around to it
[18:48] <ali1234> but it sure is buggy
[18:48] <kklimonda> coz_: you can choose a different WM
[18:49] <ali1234> natty is the most buggy release i can remember and i've been here since 6.06
[18:49] <coz_> kklimonda,  well  that I disagree with,, withouth the ability to have contorl over the WM  ,, the interface ,, themeing ,, especially for accessibility features ,, then the  OS will fail
[18:49] <MaximLevitsky> I am somewhat a fan of linux, thats why I use it despite all that
[18:49] <kklimonda> no, Mac OS X has even less customization options by default and it's not failing
[18:50] <MaximLevitsky> but that noob you target will never use it, and will warn anybody that tries too
[18:50] <MaximLevitsky> kklimonda: MaC OS is the digital penis
[18:50] <coz_> lol
[18:51] <ali1234> someone brought up a point
[18:51] <MaximLevitsky> users buy Macs to show how cool/wealthy they are
[18:51] <kklimonda> MaximLevitsky: that comment wasn't really meaningful.
[18:51] <ali1234> they said "windows users are wannabee mac users who can't afford a mac, and natty will appeal to those people cos it's cheap"
[18:51] <ali1234> but this won't work for the reason above ^
[18:52] <coz_> ali1234,  Unityh is nothing like mac other than the outdated global menuing system
[18:52] <ali1234> and the dock
[18:52] <kklimonda> not really, Linux experience can't be compared to OSX experience, unless it has deteriorated in the last few years.
[18:52] <ali1234> and the lack of customization
[18:52] <nhaines> I gave a talk on Tuesday and I demonstated Ubuntu to a dozen university students.  The reaction to Unity was very, very positive.
[18:52] <MaximLevitsky> besides Macs (I never used it though) aren't buggy.
[18:52] <ali1234> even the way the right click menus look is identical to mac
[18:52] <kklimonda> really, it's not about how your OS looks like - it's all about applications you can use on it.
[18:52] <coz_> nhaines, did they see what it looked like before that as well?
[18:52] <MaximLevitsky> Heck even with very poor UI as long as there is no bugs users will use it
[18:53] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  agreed
[18:53] <MaximLevitsky> Look at all these MP3 players, phones, etc
[18:53] <ali1234> really saying unity is not like mac is kind of... well nobody is fooled, seriously
[18:53] <coz_> Unity is essentially still in beta
[18:53] <nhaines> coz_: I'm pretty sure it was their first time seeing Unity.
[18:53] <coz_> nhaines,  mm  ,, did you at least have the compiz cube running ..yes ? :)
[18:53] <ali1234> unity appeals to people when they first see it because it *looks* nice
[18:53] <nhaines> coz_: no, I never bother with that kind of nonsense.  :)
[18:54] <ali1234> but looking nice and being efficient and not annoying are not the same thing
[18:54] <MaximLevitsky> So Mac is public status, its is more or less bug free, and it is more or less usable. So sure peoples buy it
[18:54] <kklimonda> it looks nice, and it works prett well (compared to gnome3, but it's not far behind gnome2)
[18:54] <nhaines> I demonstrated that the launcher autohides and maximized windows get almost the entire screen and everyone seemed really intrigued.
[18:54] <coz_> mm
[18:54] <nhaines> Because I got the impression they'd try it on older computers, I did demonstrate Ubuntu Classic interface.
[18:55] <coz_> nhaines,   i would have emphasized compiz and the overlay scrollbar,, tow fine decisions made  on Unity
[18:55] <coz_> two
[18:55] <ali1234> compiz is completely invisible choice
[18:55] <MaximLevitsky> these were the good decisions
[18:55] <kklimonda> overlay scrollbar doesn't really work that well on laptops.
[18:55] <nhaines> coz_: I didn't mention compiz at all.  I talked about benefits, not features.
[18:55] <ali1234> you can't demonstrate it because all the good features of compiz are disabled under unity
[18:56] <kklimonda> or actually on any device where you have to use scrollbar to actually scroll..
[18:56] <coz_> kklimonda,   oh  thats a shame ,, I really mean that by the way
[18:56] <MaximLevitsky> that for sure
[18:56] <nhaines> The fanciest I got was the workspace switcher.
[18:56] <coz_> nhaines,   for university crowd .. probably the best approach
[18:56] <ali1234> ah... the workspace switcher
[18:56] <MaximLevitsky> and the mentality of 'eye candy' should be fought with fire
[18:56] <ali1234> so, when i switch to a new workspace, and then click say, firefox
[18:56] <MaximLevitsky> eye candy is what sells the product. period.
[18:56] <ali1234> instead of opening a new firefox window on current workspace i just switched to for this purpose
[18:56] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  well I am kind of predjudiced about eye candy ,, I like it ,,
[18:56] <ali1234> it instead just takes me back to the previous workspace
[18:57] <ali1234> incredibly annoying
[18:57] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: thats for sure
[18:57] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: you can launch a new instance by middle clicking the launcher though
[18:57] <ali1234> i know
[18:57] <coz_> the biggest issue i have with unith is the insistence on using that darn purple pimple icon for the unity plugin
[18:57] <kklimonda> coz_: it has two annoying bugs: invisible buttons are not easy to hit with the mouse, and they don't show up when your mouse is on the right side of the scroll
[18:57] <ali1234> but what if i didn't know that?
[18:57] <MaximLevitsky> but noob will never figure that out!
[18:58] <coz_> unity rather
[18:58] <nhaines> ali1234: that behavior seems logical enough to me.
[18:58] <ali1234> if you think it's logical you are crazy
[18:58] <MaximLevitsky> and launcher is very heavy in unity
[18:58] <coz_> kklimonda,  oh man,, you would think that would have been the first consideration, since most of the devs work on laptops
[18:58] <ali1234> another fun way that this mechanism is broken
[18:58] <nhaines> ali1234: if you have a program running, clicking on the launcher icon focuses the program.  That's not too crazy.
[18:58] <MaximLevitsky> to find any app you have to spend days there
[18:58] <ali1234> is when the only firefox window you have open is the "download manager" window
[18:58] <ali1234> if you don't know about middle click, there is no way to open a new ff window
[18:59] <kklimonda> coz_: I'm pretty sure most devs use external mouse with the wheel
[18:59] <coz_> MaximLevitsky,  that's why i replace the launcher with cairo dock :)
[18:59] <MaximLevitsky> unless you aren't a noob, and type app in the searth, but wait unity is for noobs. that is just illogical
[18:59] <nhaines> I'm not happy that middle-click is such an undiscoverableable feature.  But you'd be surprised how few people actually have multiple instances of things open.
[18:59] <nhaines> ali1234: Firefox menu.
[18:59] <ali1234> nhaines: download manager doesn't have a menu
[18:59] <MaximLevitsky> thats for sure
[18:59] <coz_> kklimonda,  could be ,, most I have come in contact with on projects  are using regular laptops  but ,, what do I know :)
[18:59] <kklimonda> coz_: I guess in this case those new scrollbars really shine as they are small, and unobstructive.
[18:59] <MaximLevitsky> like I said unity targets intersection of 2 foregein users; noobs and power users
[19:00] <ali1234> nhaines: you have to close download manager, wait for firefox to fully exit (or else get that "firefox is alredy running please quit" message) and then click launcher again
[19:00] <coz_> kklimonda,  I really believe that the overlay scrollbar is the most innovative feature on Unity
[19:00] <nhaines> coz_: the only thing I was excited for the overlay scrollbars was the terminal... and that didn't get it, ha.
[19:00] <MaximLevitsky> you have to be noob to like its usablity, you have to be powrr user to make it not suck that much
[19:00] <coz_> nhaines,  for sure ,,  what is that about :)
[19:00] <kklimonda> coz_: that doesn't really say much if the most innovative feature of unity has already been done by Apple a year ago or so ;)
[19:00] <ali1234> overlay scrollbar is the only turnoffable thing i haven't turned off
[19:00] <coz_> kklimonda,  oh the same on apple?
[19:00] <MaximLevitsky> it figures...
[19:01] <coz_> ok then I go back towindows,, i really dislike mac and the trend that ubunt has taken for an outdated looking system ,, my opinion
[19:01] <kklimonda> coz_: I don't know if it's the same, but they did introduce something similar.. or will introduce it with Lion.
[19:01] <nhaines> When the overlay scrollbar was first announced I thought, "This'll be annoying," but then I immediately thought "But I love this feature on Android, so actually maybe it'll be great."
[19:01] <kklimonda> meh, you can just switch to GNOME3
[19:02] <kklimonda> and anyway both unity and gnome-shell are unusable on my laptop anyway - mutter is slooow, and compiz hits some weird issue in nvidia blob tht makes both emacs and gnome-terminal display text really slowly..
[19:02] <MaximLevitsky> we need to set up a riot against removal of gnome2 interface
[19:03] <nhaines> I think GNOME Shell is pretty, but I wasn't impressed with the usability, at least from the live CD.
[19:03] <kklimonda> MaximLevitsky: no, you'd need to gather enough developers to keep it alive, port to gtk+3 and then work on it.
[19:03] <nhaines> kklimonda: +1
[19:03] <MaximLevitsky> kklimonda: that what I more or less mean
[19:03] <kklimonda> usability of gnome-shell is.. weird.
[19:04] <kklimonda> they've written a lot about how are they redesigning virtual desktops, and how easy are they going to be to use
[19:04] <nhaines> We'll see.  I'm really happy with Unity at the moment.
[19:04] <kklimonda> and then it's actually much harder to work with 4 virtal desktops without accessing overlay then it has been in gnome2
[19:04] <nhaines> I think oneiric+1 is going to be great.
[19:04] <MaximLevitsky> so just last question, 11.11 will have gnome 2 ui?
[19:05] <nhaines> MaximLevitsky: not in the default install.
[19:05] <ali1234> workspace switch in unity is unusable for me, i can't keep thing in their own workspace because whenever i click on the launcher i never know which workspace it's going to take me to
[19:05] <ali1234> i pretty much only have firefox and terminal windows open
[19:05] <kklimonda> it's buggy
[19:05] <coz_> kklimonda,  I believe there is still a memory leak   Unity + compiz + nvidia + mesa + libnux   i dont think it has been pinpointed along with the glitches  with those
[19:05] <kklimonda> the idea is sound
[19:05] <ali1234> and i never know which one i'm going to get when i click
[19:05] <MaximLevitsky> nhaines: but if I update, I won't loose it, right?
[19:05] <kklimonda> you don't switch between workspaces, but between applications
[19:05] <ali1234> but i'm only running two applications
[19:06] <kklimonda> then you don't really need virtual desktops anyway
[19:06] <ali1234> i need to switch between windows of the same app in an efficient way
[19:06] <ali1234> unity just can't do it
[19:06] <kklimonda> old good alt-tab should be enough
[19:06] <nhaines> MaximLevitsky: Hard to say.  You probably will, because GNOME3 doesn't offer those features.  But I'd be surprised if you couldn't just choose an option from Ubuntu Software Center and have something similar back.
[19:06] <ali1234> even the expose thing is annoying, cos it always moves the windows around
[19:06] <ali1234> alt tab has always been horrible
[19:07] <nhaines> I sort of miss super-tab, even though I only used it when giving talks.  :)
[19:07] <ali1234> "here's ALL your windows, they're so small you can't tell which is which, deal with it"
[19:07] <kklimonda> MaximLevitsky: I'm pretty sure that there won't be a gnome2 ui anymore in 11.10 as we are updating gnome to gnome3, and it comes with it's own gnome-panel & co
[19:07] <MaximLevitsky> and that panel is sorry for exapression, fucked-up, right?
[19:07] <nhaines> kklimonda: GNOME3 has a pretty familiar "fallback" if GNOME Shell isn't configured, so I'm sure that will be available.
[19:08] <nhaines> MaximLevitsky: Could you be a little more specific?
[19:08] <kklimonda> nhaines: gnome-panel has been redesigned to look closer to how gnome-shell looks like
[19:08] <ali1234> i heard the gnome-panel in gnome3 doesn't support applets, is basically a cut down version of gnome-shell
[19:08] <MaximLevitsky> that what I mean
[19:08] <ali1234> but that could be old information
[19:08] <kklimonda> but afair you can still add random applets to gnome-panel
[19:09] <kklimonda> just not in random positions
[19:09] <nhaines> Everyone's been planning to ditch applets for over a year now.
[19:09] <MaximLevitsky> and why, why?
[19:09] <nhaines> There comes a point where you sort of just have to put the responsibility on the developers.
[19:09] <ali1234> tbh most of those applets are rubbish
[19:09] <MaximLevitsky> these are one of features that linux has and windows doesny
[19:09] <MaximLevitsky> nope, name me one that is rubbish?
[19:09] <ali1234> windows has that applet bar thingy now
[19:10] <MaximLevitsky> even better :-(
[19:10] <ali1234> MaximLevitsky: well for one thing the hw monitoring applet in gnome is rubbish, crashes all the time...
[19:10] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: never did crash here
[19:10] <ali1234> plus there's the "oh your screen resized, we moved all your applets to random positions" thing
[19:10] <nhaines> I think any software that someone wants to run is useful to that person.  But the difference between GNOME applets and the application indicators are night and day for me.  Indicators are far superior.
[19:10] <ali1234> i agree
[19:10] <nhaines> Yeah, GNOME3 fixes that position problem.
[19:10] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: that is gnome-panel bug
[19:11] <kklimonda> nhaines: not really, you can't put text in appindicators
[19:11] <nhaines> kklimonda: they shouldn't have text.  :)
[19:11] <kklimonda> nhaines: unless they should
[19:11] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: and there is elegant solution to that
[19:11] <MaximLevitsky> http://www.sharpenviro.com/wp/
[19:11] <nhaines> kklimonda: don't get me wrong.  Indicators aren't quite as powerful because they're more restricted.  But that restriction is what makes them superior.  They're all standard.
[19:12] <kklimonda> hamster applet is a great example (probably the only good use of applets I've ever seen) of applet that can't be ported to Unity without loss of functionality.
[19:12] <MaximLevitsky> all applets are ether alighed to left or right
[19:12] <nhaines> I think the usability that results is well worth the adjustment period.
[19:12] <MaximLevitsky> works perfect
[19:12] <ali1234> speaking of indicators
[19:12] <nhaines> MaximLevitsky: that's what GNOME3 does except it also has "center" as well.
[19:12] <ali1234> xfce has an indicator applet for it's panel
[19:12] <ali1234> but i'm only allowed one. wtf?
[19:12] <kklimonda> yeah, they have finally fixed alignment issues in gnome-panel, after all these years.
[19:12] <MaximLevitsky> nhaines: but, Gnome3 doesn't have applets I think?
[19:13] <ali1234> MaximLevitsky: it has applets, just not compatible with 2.x applets
[19:13] <kklimonda> gnome-panel (which is a part of gnome-shell fallback) does have applets
[19:13] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: good to know
[19:13] <ali1234> again, that could be old information
[19:13] <kklimonda> dunno if you can add some random applets though
[19:14] <kklimonda> after unity systray whitelist I've started expecting the worst from foss ux engineers
[19:14] <MaximLevitsky> that shartenviron is really cool desktop replacement
[19:14] <MaximLevitsky> everything can be configured
[19:14] <nhaines> Ubuntu's been saying they'd remove applet support in October 2010 since 2009.
[19:14] <ali1234> sounds like KDE?
[19:14] <kklimonda> "everything can be configured" is not really the only good approach
[19:15] <kklimonda> the near-opposite is also valid.
[19:15] <MaximLevitsky> yes it is, you configure it once and forget about it
[19:15] <nhaines> They delayed it six months and made it configurable...  I'm not sure what more what could expect really.
[19:15] <MaximLevitsky> or use defaults if you are a noob
[19:15] <nhaines> The perfect GNOME interface would be just one big button labeled "Do What I Mean".  :D
[19:15] <ali1234> there's only two things i want from unity to make it decent imo
[19:16] <kklimonda> I don't really consider myself a noob, and yet I haven't changed anything in my interface.
[19:16] <kklimonda> I even use the stock wallpaper
[19:16] <ali1234> first, fix the problems with window switching i mentioned above
[19:16] <ali1234> second, make global menu only apply to maximized windows as a config option
[19:16] <ali1234> (like how it only removes the title bar on maximized windows)
[19:16] <nhaines> ali1234: I could get behind that second one.
[19:17] <ali1234> as a fix for the first, a part way fix would be to make unity only switch to an existing window if it's on current workspace
[19:17] <ali1234> no window on current workspace = open new window
[19:17] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: that for sure
[19:17] <ali1234> that could also be a config option, like it is in gnome-panel
[19:18] <ali1234> also if i could have "keep in launcher" on a per workspace basis, that would be awesome :)
[19:19] <MaximLevitsky> in sharpE its possible to have both a normal taskbar, and unity-style appbar btw
[19:19] <MaximLevitsky> thats is really cool
[19:19] <ali1234> you can do that on unity too
[19:19] <MaximLevitsky> how?
[19:19] <ali1234> you can just load up a gnome panel :)
[19:20] <MaximLevitsky> yes, but then unity will show apps from taskbar, no
[19:20] <ali1234> yeah, but you don't need to have a taskbar on the panel
[19:20] <MaximLevitsky> there apps in appbar aren't shown in taskbar
[19:20] <ali1234> you can just have a menu
[19:20] <ali1234> anyway, i don't want that :)
[19:21] <ali1234> i want fix unity, it has potential to be better
[19:21] <MaximLevitsky> if it is forked....
[19:22] <kklimonda> seriously, who would fork it?
[19:22] <MaximLevitsky> the little point is that sharpE runs on windows.... thats why I consider switching back to it
[19:23] <MaximLevitsky> the desktop and panel were for me always the things that suck in wndows
[19:23] <dcordes> hi
[19:23] <MaximLevitsky> because they have little configuration
[19:23] <MaximLevitsky> but now unity is worse and sharpE looks even better that gnome2 and KDE3
[19:24] <MaximLevitsky> KDE4
[19:24] <ali1234> port it to linux
[19:24] <ali1234> btw i doubt it does anything that kde can't do
[19:24] <ali1234> if you can figure out how to configure kde to do it
[19:24] <MaximLevitsky> KDE plasma is very powerfull
[19:25] <MaximLevitsky> Absolutely it has everything I need
[19:25] <MaximLevitsky> but it is somewhat slow
[19:25] <dcordes> I have a machine with a two-finger touchscreen and I'm using ubuntu natty arm with unity-2d . Since unity-2d is configured to only parse three to four finger gestures by default, I can't make use of gestures in unity-2d with my device. Is there a way to reconfigure it for 2-finger use? (directly, without jinn)
[19:25] <ali1234> main problem i have with kde is it just isn't pretty enough
[19:25] <MaximLevitsky> ali1234: that I say is the opposite
[19:26] <MaximLevitsky> but KDE4 is somewhat inconsistent
[19:26] <ali1234> kde font rendering has been broken since forever
[19:26] <MaximLevitsky> yep
[19:26] <ali1234> if they ever manage to get it to render fonts properly in the middle of buttons i'll be flabbergasted
[19:26] <ali1234> oddly Qt does not have this problem
[19:26] <ali1234> so i dunno what kde are up to
[19:27] <MaximLevitsky> to say the truth many KDE4 apps layout is somewhat ugly
[19:27] <ali1234> that too
[19:27] <MaximLevitsky> KDE3 really was the best of the best
[19:27] <MaximLevitsky> I used it, and it is the best of all
[19:30] <dcordes> Bug 782335
[19:33] <ali1234> dcordes: might be better as a question than a bug?
[19:33] <dcordes> ali1234: well it's not usable out of the box. so it's an improvement proposition which is ok for a bug imho.
[19:34] <ali1234> true enough
[19:34] <ali1234> quite a lot isn;t configurable out of the box with unity though
[19:34] <ali1234> so there might be a way, idk
[19:35] <dcordes> ali1234: boulabiar: proposed to make use of unity keyboard shortcuts assignments via jinn but I am worried about perforamnce lost
[19:35] <dcordes> s/lost/loss/
[19:35] <ali1234> dcordes: also, all the people who know are probably travelling home from UDS right now, so you might want to ask again after the weekend :)
[19:36] <dcordes> yeah my timing always sucks
[23:16] <IsmAvatar> Hey guys, ##java sent me to #ubuntu, and #ubuntu sent me here. I have a java program with an icon for its window. The icon, however, is appearing all blurry in Unity's dock, regardless of if I choose a 32x32, 48x48, or 128x128 image.
[23:17] <IsmAvatar> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9975312/lgm-logo48.png is what it's supposed to look like. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9975312/lgm-unity.png is what it ends up looking like.
[23:19] <IsmAvatar> anyone alive in here? lol