[20:58] <airurando> evening
[21:00] <moylan> hi
[21:02] <airurando> how is moylan?
[21:03] <moylan> having fun.  after a few weeks of effort i nearly have a netbook running narwhal.  all hardware problems.  dead disk, iffy touchpad.
[21:03] <airurando> sound like fun........ NOT
[21:04]  * airurando has not taken the plunge yet
[21:04] <moylan> the dying disk was the worst.  i can usually feel the problem from the noise it makes or some other behaviour.  this one just erased the ubuntu partition after 3-4 reboots.  drove me bonkers.
[21:05] <airurando> glad you got it sorted
[21:05] <airurando> moylan has unity grown on you?
[21:05] <airurando> or are you a Xubuntu man now?
[21:06] <moylan> not 100%.  still have an iffy touchpad.  the hp minibook touchpad has no buttons.  a section of the touchpad is devoted to buttons.  however this prevents drag and drop.  at the moment.  there is a work around that i have yet to try.
[21:07] <airurando> hope it works out for you.
[21:07] <airurando> actually you might know this
[21:07] <moylan> hate.  hate unity.  xubuntu fixes 90% of the silliness that is unity.  the snap to full screen and the silly left dock.  still have to fix the scroll bars.
[21:08] <airurando> aye but unity wasn't built for you
[21:08] <airurando> It was built for the masses
[21:08] <moylan> up till narwhal i would recommend ubuntu on a computer to anybody if they could get it preinstalled.  since narwhal, i couldn't make that recommendation.
[21:09] <moylan> it's behaviour is too different to what people expect from a computer interface.  the choices made are wrong.
[21:09] <airurando> I still feel that it can be recommended to people who are not geeks
[21:10] <airurando> moylan, is there any simple way to disable the touchpad while typing other that preferences, mouse, touchpad
[21:10] <moylan> i only recommend what i will use.  i hate unity so much that i could never recommend it as i would go crazy trying to use it for more than a few minutes.
[21:11] <airurando> have you tried gnome 3?
[21:12] <moylan> the problem i'm having is a combination of what's been discussed here.  http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1388164.html
[21:12] <moylan> i hate the trend for the elimination of buttons!
[21:12] <moylan> haven't tried gnome 3 yet.  you?
[21:14] <airurando> no but I saw it on Julies machine.
[21:15] <airurando> my god she could fly around it.
[21:16] <airurando> I'm wondering if your touchpad problem might be fixed in the coming iterations?
[21:16] <airurando> has it been logged as a bug yet?
[21:17] <moylan> it is and it isn't.  only affects touchpads with no buttons.  different touchpads have different hardware so there are a number of fixes.  which changes per version of ubuntu.  so it keeps having to be redocumented.
[21:19] <moylan> the other problem with touchpads is the tap to click option.  as you type into an editor your hand resting on the touchpad clicks were the mouse pointer is so that you typing becomes gobbledygook.  a fix here worked in xubuntu.  http://www.rhyshale.com/blog/archives/47
[21:19] <moylan> i always turn of tap to click in windows as well.  it's a sillly feature.  at least in my opinion.
[21:20] <moylan> sorry for the rant.  2 weeks of solid hardware hell.  nearly over fingers crossed.
[21:22] <moylan> the biggest problem which i now realise with the touchpad with no buttons is that when you move your hand from the moving the cursor part to the button part your hand touching the button part often moves the pointer away from the button that you wished to click.
[21:22] <airurando> In the broader sense I reckon Ubuntu is gearing itself towards normal folk ie. those that don't live and breath computers
[21:22] <airurando> sorry on the phone at the mo
[21:23] <moylan> then the scroll bars are a disaster.  they require more hand to eye co-ordination than a traditional scroll bar.  more troublesome to use.
[21:27] <airurando> sorry about that moylan.... twas the mother outlaw
[21:28] <moylan> no worries.
[21:29] <airurando> just read back, you are in a pickle.
[21:30] <airurando> unfortunately I've no words of wisdom for you.
[21:30] <moylan> the netbooks main use will be my main system.  it will have a mouse attached so that is not a problem.  however if the problem can not be eliminated then the device is condemned to a location were i can use a mouse.  i often use my netbook on my lap.  so it's not mobile.  grrrrrrrr!
[21:31] <airurando> aye
[21:31] <moylan> and it has allegedly a 10hr battery life.  so mobile and yet not...
[21:31] <airurando> in my experience the theoretical battery life is never ever reached.
[21:32] <moylan> just another piece of information i need to remember before i buy/recommend a new system.  'avoid touchpads with no buttons!!'
[21:32] <airurando> good point.
[21:32] <moylan> true!  but even half that at 5 hours is pretty neat!
[21:32] <airurando> still it should fixed
[21:33] <airurando> you should promote it as a bug.
[21:33] <moylan> they have been selling these for 2 years.  they aren't in a hurry.  hate hp with a passion.
[21:33] <airurando> what percentage of netbooks have the no button touchpad?
[21:34] <moylan> quite low.  but it will increase i suspect.  apple leads the way... again...
[21:34] <airurando> is it just HP?
[21:34] <moylan> probably cheaper as fewer parts.
[21:34] <moylan> only hp that i have noticed.
[21:35] <airurando> if it becomes more widespread then your problem becomes a bigger problem and bigger problems get solved.
[21:35] <moylan> that's certainly a theory.  :-)
[21:36] <moylan> 20 years in support.  i suspect otherwise.
[21:36]  * airurando lives in a buttoned touchpad world.
[21:36] <moylan> used to have a person call once a year with the exact same bug for a decade.  could never get it fixed.  had to live with the calls.
[21:36] <moylan> wish i could get a netbook with a trackpoint.
[21:37] <airurando> maybe a small notebook?
[21:38] <moylan> notebooks are too large.  netbooks are fine.  i suspect in a few years there will (fingers crossed) be a standard size tablet that will run ubuntu.  then you can choose from any addon keyboard with the exact features you want.
[21:39] <airurando> you would know better than me.
[21:39] <airurando> sounds good though
[21:40] <airurando> moylan, have you tried mint?
[21:41] <airurando> only on the problem netbook of course.....
[21:41] <airurando> :)
[21:41] <moylan> i tried it once about 1-2 versions ago.  if xubuntu hadn't been ok i would have tried it next.
[21:42] <airurando> it is great having the different options.
[21:45] <airurando> I'm glad Xubuntu fits the bill for you currently.
[21:45] <moylan> it reminds me of win2000.  one my favourite incarnations of windows.
[21:47] <airurando> old school!!!!!
[21:47] <moylan> whenever i hear people describing unity i hear how they did not like it but have gotten used to it.  you should not get used to a computer.  it should get used to you.
[21:48] <airurando> I have to disagree somewhat with that.
[21:49] <airurando> when something changes the natural instinct is to resist.
[21:49] <airurando> that does not mean the change is bad.
[21:49] <moylan> some change is good.  not all change is good.  i would lump unity into the second.
[21:49] <airurando> Unitys value is yet to be determined IMO
[21:49] <moylan> like firmware updates that remove features.  how did that work out for sony? :-D
[21:50] <airurando> lets see it in 11.10 and particularly 12.04
[21:50] <airurando> lets see if it gets into the hands of 200 million users
[21:50] <airurando> and lets see how they rate it.
[21:51] <moylan> pehaps it will be better.  i will judge it again then.  but for the moment i will not recommend ubuntu to replace windows/mac.
[21:51] <airurando> again I stress I don't believe Unity was made for you
[21:51] <airurando> you have buckets of alternative options.
[21:51] <moylan> i'm the one who will have to support it in my family and friends.
[21:51] <airurando> Unity is for folks like me.
[21:52] <moylan> i think unity is so that ubuntu stands out in the distro herd.  my paranoia/scepticism at work.
[21:53] <airurando> take your point about support
[21:53] <airurando> can't argue there
[21:53] <airurando> but on the other suggestion I must disagree
[21:53] <moylan> now support calls will require reexplaining scrollbars.
[21:54] <airurando> Unity is attempting to provide a simple intuitive interface for jane  and joe soap users.
[21:55] <airurando> I may be wrong but thats what I think.
[21:55] <moylan> that is a good aim.  it really is.  but it breaks so many existing conventions that i have to wonder if this effort will succeed.
[21:56] <moylan> and you may well be right!
[21:56] <airurando> but those conventions have gotten linux nowhere in terms of mass market
[21:56] <ShaneM> What's this non-sense about Unity wasn't made for you. I thought it was made for everyone :)
[21:57] <ShaneM> If you don't like it then chances are you just don't like that type of interface. Not that you're too much of an advanced user.
[21:57] <moylan> it owns the server market.  it is beginning to own the mobile market.  it owns the embedded market.  the user space will happen when it happens.
[21:58] <airurando> ShaneM: I still reckon Unitys primary focus is on getting new users comfortable with linus
[21:58] <airurando> *linux
[21:59] <moylan> it's funnier when you meant linus!  :-)
[21:59] <airurando> yeah I laughed a bit when i read back.
[21:59] <ShaneM> I think Unity is a reaction to the direction of gnome-shell. While Unity might also mean trying making it easier for new users, I don't think the "It's not made for you" it's an excuse to why someone don't like it.
[22:00] <airurando> perhaps I shouldn't have said that
[22:00] <airurando> let me try a different way
[22:01] <airurando> Advanced users have already developed their own ideal interface and way of interacting with linux.
[22:01] <ShaneM> I sort of get what you mean. Just saying that way is kind of dangerous IMO, it's can be seen as kind of a simple way to invalidate their comments
[22:01] <ShaneM> airurando: Yeah I understand :)
[22:02] <airurando> yeah I was wrong with that statement and I apologise
[22:02] <moylan> i didn't take it that way.
[22:02] <airurando> but i didn't mean it to come across negatively
[22:02] <airurando> thanks moylan
[22:02] <ShaneM> airurando: I didn't mean to make you say sorry or anything. Just pointing out some people might take it up that way :)
[22:03] <airurando> ShaneM you are absolutely right
[22:03] <airurando> you pointed something out to me and I agreed.  I felt apology was right.
[22:04] <ShaneM> I've been using Unity with about a month and a half now.... only thing I don't like is the indicators in the bar aren't noticeable enough.