[02:48] howdy [02:50] Kokito: o/ [02:50] hey holstein [02:56] day of big announcement, eh? :) [02:57] yeah :) [02:57] im stoked [02:57] some silliness though [02:58] like samba support [02:58] that that is somehow connected to the DE [02:58] but, whatever [02:58] im sure we'll win some and lose some [03:05] there is no perfect world :) [03:05] Sakamoto-san does make some valid points, though [03:10] sure [03:10] but, gnome2 is going away [03:10] its just a matter of when [03:11] and *if* we all decide that gnome3 and unity are not appropriate [03:11] which we seem to have decided that [03:11] then, we are really just getting prepared [03:11] for the future [03:13] I just wonder if it would not be worth giving Unity an opportunity to evolve [03:13] sure [03:13] but, we had talked about it [03:13] and decided that we wouldnt really like that either [03:13] assuming it evolved [03:14] I see :) [03:14] Kokito: but, i see what you mean [03:14] i think, in the long term [03:14] going to XFCE keeps things more like they are now [03:15] which is arguably more appropriate for ubuntustudio [03:15] we could always move to unity if we wanted* [03:15] right [03:16] im really enjoying a recent dual monitor setup i got going :) [03:18] nice! [03:18] I read the news that 11.10 will not have a video editor by default [03:19] yeah [03:19] why should it really [03:19] is that a common needed task? [03:19] i think its kinda nice [03:19] it'll save some space on the iso though [03:19] I think a light video editor would not hurt [03:20] what video editors does US include? [03:20] i need to look at openshot [03:20] Kokito: thats a good question [03:20] yeah, I was reading about it myself [03:20] i havent looked at the -video metapackage in a while [03:20] I should install US :) [03:21] i have both [03:21] ok, sorry, but have to go [03:21] will probably be back online later [03:21] Kokito: laterx :) [08:17] just finished dinner past midnight... [13:39] new blog post for those interested: http://dullass.blogspot.com/2011/05/ubuntu-studio-moving-to-xfce.html [13:40] TheMuso: did you manage to talk to andy yet about the -lowlatency kernel or is this too early? [14:44] i sometimes think that kenneth who posts to the mailing list is a troll :/ [15:02] scott-work: is that ralf ? [15:03] nm [15:04] i see kenneth koym's post [15:19] scott-work: see, i think in your blog [15:19] As most reading this blog should be aware, Ubuntu has recently moved from using GNOME 2 [15:19] even that isnt true [15:19] i mean, it is [15:19] but thats not the point [15:20] gnome is moving from using gnome2 [15:20] gnome2 is EOL [15:23] i can understand ralf's post, and you are right, i don't think he knew about gnome2 EOL and ubuntu moving away from it...that's cool :) [15:23] holstein: ^^^ [15:24] but i have a hard time with kenneth because he seems to be slightly "out there" with cryptic statements that border on conspiracy theories and little to base his charged or explosive statements [15:24] granted, i engaged in a little hyperboly when describing kenneth's comments, but that's how i feel it comes across [15:24] scott-work: i asked for clarification [15:25] from kenneth [15:25] i don't expec thim to respond (if he follows previous patterns ) [15:25] i didnt understand his statement at all [15:25] yeah, i didn't either [15:26] but it seems that people who write the way he does, kinda rambling without clear breaks between statements, themes, or concepts, also think that way [15:26] and perhaps his thougths aren't all that logical (or moderted by inhibitions) either [15:26] its challenging [15:26] this is *not* the first post about xfce [15:26] and the move [15:27] the one about samba [15:27] i mean [15:27] that was well thought out [15:27] clear [15:27] to the point [15:27] a decent argument [15:27] but even if it was the first post, most of his statements still do not hold water [15:27] i didt like that either since buntu in general should all have the same samba [15:27] and ability to use samba [15:28] still, i understand that post [15:28] holstein: oh yeah, there have been some great posts in this thread (and not just the one's who say it's a good idea ;P ) and have been backed by solid arguements or descriptive feelings/understandings [15:28] the default applications argument [15:28] its the FUD though [15:29] looks like ralf got home from work [15:29] and just started firing off at each comment ;) [15:29] while i think that certain concerns were valid earlier over kde apps rendering well in gnome and gnome rendering well in xfce might have been true in the past, i do not believe it is the same anymore [15:29] holstein: LOL, yeah [15:30] scott-work: also, the change from KDE to KDE4 is not in any way similar to the change from gnome2 to gnome3 [15:30] some has posited that i might be in terms of usability [15:31] that is, it would lack usability because some (most?) functionality was broken [15:31] but i don't think this will be the case [15:31] LXDE is like gnome-light :) [15:32] my understanding is the kde4 really, really was broken for a majority of items...some accused it of being a developer release rather than a full blown release [15:32] s/the/that [15:32] totally [15:32] im more thinking now [15:32] i've played around with kde4 lately and i think since 4.6 they really have gotten things together [15:32] when its stable [15:32] compating KDE4.6 with KDE3 [15:33] holstein: regarding LXDE...i've tried a few distros with it and i find it ugly [15:33] comparing* [15:33] i think xfce has a very simple elegence compared to lxde [15:33] you could say KDE is a prettier, newer version of KDE [15:33] whereas gnome3 [15:33] thats a workflow change [15:34] from gnome2 [15:34] anyways... [15:34] i know you like lxde and i'm not trying to be mean, but lxde just isn't me :P [15:34] yeah, LXDE is nice and light [15:34] but i think XFCE is much more polished in everyway [15:34] i find gnome3 much closer to supporting an audio workflow than unity [15:34] i simply do not enjoy navigating the desktop with unity....at all [15:34] i heard jono's interview on the linux action show [15:35] in defending unity [15:35] if i kept both hands on the keyboard at all times then it would be as big a deal [15:35] personally, i think unity *is* great [15:35] screw jono, he's got to carry the company line in this [15:35] and i think what the buntu team did in the short amount of time is awesome [15:35] but, i have to agree with lunduke [15:35] now if someone from fedora was defending unity, that would be something :) [15:35] why not just customize gnome3? [15:36] scott-work: hehe [15:36] oh yeah, the team made awesome progress in the short time [15:36] but to me it does seem to be a bit of gnome3-lite [15:36] but i think the important issue is that unity (and ubuntu) will be moving to wayland [15:36] as customizations get added [15:36] i think it will seem more full-featured [15:37] and i don't think gnome3 is ready to do that...perhaps i'm wrong though [15:37] yeah, everybody will eventually go to wayland [15:37] i wouldn't be surprised though, if the delta between gnome3 and unity decreases over time [15:37] gnome3 has some great functionaly that unity doesn't have now and i can't see them not incorporating these things over time [15:39] again, i think gnome3 more closely supports our desired work flow better than unity [15:39] i think, if unity wasnt happening though [15:39] and ubuntu was running gnome3 [15:39] we would still be talking about and moving to XFCE [15:40] qutie possibly [15:40] i've been giving some serious thought to various things: the purpose of ubuntu studio, who we support, how long will i be lead [15:40] i think ubuntu studio shouldn't make ground breaking changes like ubuntu did with unity [15:41] i think our palce is to provide a stable environment for users to create art [15:41] agreed [15:41] i don't even like some of the small, minor changes between each release [15:41] even some of the ML questions [15:41] like samba [15:41] yeah [15:41] im a bit like 'who cares' [15:41] thats not what US is about [15:41] why should i HAVE to relearn my desktop each six months because something stupid changed [15:41] as long as we have the official repos, which we have to do [15:41] but then again, that's why i've been rocking the LTS version mostly [15:42] then, folkds can get whatever they want going on easy enough [15:42] i'm defintely going to do a blog post about my feelings in this regard [15:42] eventually :P [15:42] scott-work: yeah, i thought about responding to that [15:42] since, i am running 10.04 [15:42] as well [15:42] but [15:42] and am still not considering moving my production machine yet [15:43] however, testing and preparing for 12.04 [15:43] thats important [15:43] yeah, me too...i've already backed up stuff and should install natty this weekend [15:43] and we have a lot of work to do [15:43] oh, i misread what you said [15:43] yeah, i have testing boxes [15:43] i thought you said you WERE going to move your production box [15:43] that i'll run 11.10 on [15:43] ASAP [15:44] for what i do i feel comfortable moving to 11.04 [15:44] yeah, thats just my decision [15:44] i dont feel like its 'unstable' really [15:44] i belive 11.04 provides significant improvements although some may be considered trivial [15:44] its more just being comfortable with the packages [15:44] and how it works [15:44] yeah, i understand [15:45] but if we openly declared that each release would be wild and varied and MIGHT NOT WORK and would have the latest, crazy shit... [15:45] BUT, would keep the LTS very, very stable and sane [15:45] hehe [15:45] then i could see people being more open to things [15:45] jono talked about that [15:45] for the main release [15:46] how thats not really clear [15:46] and i wouldn't feel that we needed to be stable, and consistent, and stable for the users [15:46] whats the difference in the LTS's and non LTS's [15:46] they are not really 'testing' releases [15:46] and not reall 'stable' either [15:46] sort of like development relelases i guess [15:46] he was implying that the higher-ups were trying to sort that out [15:46] and make it more clear [15:47] i mean, to a normal user [15:47] where is this interview? i think i'd like to listen to it [15:47] or someone running OSX or win [15:47] its just *not* possible to communicate what these different releases are [15:47] * holstein looking [15:48] but the system of LTS every two years is a bit of a detraction to me [15:48] things change SOOO much during that time [15:48] desktops get sexier, better looking, providing more functionality and performance [15:48] in the corporate world i guess it wouldn't matter as much [15:49] but i stayed with hardy until lucid was ready [15:49] http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/7902/jono-talks-natty/ [15:49] and holy shit it was a change [15:49] yeah, i feel like i need to keep my finger on the pulse [15:49] and see whats changing along the way [15:50] hardy to lucid [15:50] ew, it's an hour long video...i'll save the link and listen to it later since i'm leaving work soon [15:50] thats quite a change [15:50] scott-work: i get the audio version [15:50] on my droid [15:51] jono had better respond to my email soon ;) [15:51] i'll see if i can get it on freedom hating itunes [15:51] call him out in other places :P [15:51] he says a couple times 'i dont care what people use as long as its open' [15:51] i should even blog about it too :) [15:51] im going to keep my eye on the prize though [15:51] i just want him to help US [15:51] however [15:52] downloading it now on my freedome hating iphone [15:52] he's too high profile in music *not* to be talking about US [15:52] i agree wholeheartedly [15:53] breakfast.. BB [15:55] i'm leaving work in five minutes as well :) [17:46] i'm not responding to kenneth anymore regarding this matter [17:47] oh, and thanks holstein for the link to that interview with jono, he should have been doing this sort of thing before [18:11] holstein, maybe we should up the intensity on jono for using non-free applications for audio AND not even offering suggestions to us [18:12] that interview (which i haven't finished) seemed to want to give him a hard time with his mixer and i thought... [18:12] what if many people blogged questioning him about what he does without offering suggestions for improvements [18:12] what if podcasts discussed it too [18:12] what if enough people emailed him asking him about it [18:13] would it build enough momentum to publicly force him to do something? [19:12] ScottL: thats the problem though [19:13] he has been asked about using open solutions for audio production [19:13] and said that its not up to par [19:13] and thats not cool [19:13] i dont necessarily feel like jono does [19:13] where, i dont care as long as people use open tools [19:13] i think folks should use what works for them [19:13] even jono [19:13] BUT, by saying its not up to par [19:13] thats bad [19:14] i equate that to his uphill battle [19:14] selling folks on ubuntu desktop use [19:14] and getting the normal 'its not up to par because of MS integration' [19:14] or whatever [19:14] which, we all know is not true [19:14] BUT [19:14] at the same time [19:15] if you are a desktop user in a community that used .doc's [19:15] you need MS office to have the easiest and most compatible experience [19:15] and thats fine [19:15] but if he would at least offer suggestions where it is deficient then at least he's helping [19:15] BUT, its one of jono's jobs to change that viewpoint [19:15] ScottL: exactly [19:16] a person of his community envolvment [19:16] he could actually get things fixed [19:16] i see he is hiring a developer [19:16] thats all i want [19:16] i want jono to help us get to a higher profile [19:16] right, so we overwhelm him with peer pressure to do _something_ to help [19:16] so we can have a full time cannonical paid studio dev [19:16] ScottL: thats what i wish he had done [19:17] instead of just saying 'this doesnt work' [19:17] i mean, thats what linux desktop was like when he got on the scene [19:17] and he has arguably been one of the bigger players in helping change that public view [19:18] and, for a high profile member like him [19:18] i am thinking strongly, if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem [19:18] by saying linux audio is not up to par [19:18] that directly effects ubuntustudio [19:18] did my friend Jono get in trouble again? :P [19:18] and the public view of it [19:18] Kokito: not yet :) [19:19] oh, so the best is yet to come, eh? :) [19:19] Kokito: we'll see [19:19] i have an email-plea out to him [19:19] Kokito: i have decided we need his help [19:20] in what way? [19:20] building community [19:20] really just what he's good at [19:20] just carry that over to ubuntustudio [19:20] and not help spread the FUD about linux audio not being capable [19:21] ic [19:22] Kokito: if you guys are friends, ask him if he got my email :) [19:22] i tried to catch him in a /query first [19:22] but he was busy [19:22] and then.. UDS [19:22] i know he's a busy guy [19:22] but, we need him [19:22] met him a couple of times, but not really friends [19:22] hi Kokito , do you want to do a ubuntu studio newletter? [19:23] ScottL: i think we handled this XFCE thing wrong [19:23] now that i think about it [19:23] ScottL: could help with the editing, but I do not know about US nor its use cases enough to write anything useful [19:23] holstein, you mean my emails to kenneth :P [19:23] we should have made the fact more clear that gnome2 is EOL [19:23] i think kenneth and others think we are just changing [19:23] Kokito, there really isn't a newsletter at this point [19:23] for the hell of it [19:24] but holstein that's why i pointed out my blog for the reasons [19:24] ScottL: OH, i hear you [19:24] its like theres a carbon-monoxide leak in the ML [19:25] ScottL: if you want to start one, you will need people to write the content; I can't be one of them. [19:25] maybe a blogspot blog [19:25] and we can post to it [19:25] ScottL: I think we should try to use the website as a vehicle for newsletter-like content [19:25] Kokito: yeah [19:26] you're right [19:26] the site should just have that functionality [19:26] Kokito, no, i agree with that...i'm just kinda messing around anyway, i was hoping you would say "yeah, that's what i've always wanted to do and i already started one" [19:26] heh [19:26] i would seriously like other contributors to ubuntu studio to be able to post at the new website in certain areas for updates and thoughts [19:27] ailo_'s testing of the kernels would have been a good deal [19:27] get that infomration out there [19:27] like gnome2 EOL [19:27] yeah [19:27] i mean [19:27] i feel like it was clear [19:27] but, maybe not clear enough [19:27] we should have had it really clear like that [19:27] ScottL: to open up the website for broader collaboration is technically feasible (and desirable IMHO) [19:28] gnome2 is going away [19:28] but i will say that cory could have started the post clearer with some simple facts, but he asked me to proof read it as well and i failed to note that [19:28] period [19:28] SO, we are... [19:28] ScottL: i think, in light of the information [19:28] its clear [19:28] i just assume that folks are in the know [19:28] and they are not [19:28] if you're not in the IRC [19:28] well i thought my blog post clearly outlined the logic behind the move, but perhaps i'm too close, did it make sense to you guys? [19:28] i feel like some of the news slips by [19:29] ScottL: i thought it was crystal [19:29] your post [19:29] but, whatever [19:29] I have a question: since US is moving to XFCE, does that mean that it will be based on XUBUNTU? [19:29] again, we are not going to please everyone [19:29] however [19:29] the comments are like 'keep gnome you idiots' [19:29] Kokito, no, we will just replace the gnome-panel packages with xfce ones [19:29] and the one time i have aske for clarification [19:29] ScottL: I see, thanks [19:29] from ralph [19:30] he didnt know gnome2 was EOL [19:30] or, what gnome3 was [19:31] ScottL: do we have access to the existing website stats? [19:31] holstein, this has been a consistent problem with communication around ubuntu studio [19:31] Kokito, not that i am aware, others might know like ckontros or jussi or themuse or persia [19:32] yeah, its challenging to plan for all the opinions [19:32] holstein, to quesh ignorance or misunderstanding i have had to consistently repeat statements [19:32] and i think, i expect a certain amount of education to occur [19:32] self-education [19:32] but perhaps it's a systemic problem holstein [19:32] ScottL: are these people that you mention (ckontros, jussi, themuse, etc.) MIA? [19:32] and thats not right i suppose [19:32] i mean, the one guy said 'whats XFCE' [19:32] i valid question [19:32] but, i would expect someone to just google it [19:32] and read [19:32] holstein, Kokito , if we had the new website up and going and we consistently post news to it then we could THEN expect our users to dervie information ffrom there [19:33] Kokito, ckontros is cory kontrols who has been around more and more lately, but the others are involved, but peripherally generally [19:33] i think part of this early adoption is that we *could* jump back to unity [19:33] in some cases they get directly involved, but those are special occassions [19:33] in theory [19:33] before 12.04 [19:34] well, not back to unity, but you know... [19:34] holstein, i'm using unity right now and i don't like it, but i force myself to keep using it to become familiar with it (not because i think i've been bad and need to be punished) [19:34] can someone briefly tell e what you want to know so I dont have to read scroll back right now? [19:34] jussi, Kokito was asking about stats for the existing website (ubuntustudion.org) [19:35] jussi, Kokito is helping update to a new website and is doing wonderful things :) [19:35] I think I have made it fairly clear that I am not really active, Im not MIA, but backing off to do other stuff [19:35] hi jussi [19:35] I know not much about the status of the website. [19:40] holstein, but if we make the website with a news section and we keep posting continual information then i would expect the users to keep up with it and be more knowledgeable [19:40] right [19:40] BUT, i dont think we can expect anything [19:41] i mean, im the same way [19:41] or was at least* [19:41] i think folks assume theres a big team somewhere [19:41] yeah, they think that ubuntu studio is an operating unto itself and a well paid and highly mobilized team is working it [19:42] interesting, and not unreleatedly, i found out that the xubuntu team is not quite as robust as i imagined as well, apparently most of the packages come from debian [19:42] other than just the settings, plymouth theme, etc [19:43] which is very similar to us ;) [19:43] yeah [19:43] i think it could be mutually benificial [19:44] ScottL: the fact that US is a volunteer based initiative can be articulated in the new website in a more prominent way [19:44] OR, i get loud [19:44] and get us some funds for a dev [19:44] or dev team :) [19:45] i dont want to lose the control we have though [19:45] ScottL: i wouldnt want it to be taken over [19:45] it would be nice to have someone chewing on backports [19:45] and kernel maintaining [19:45] fixing packages [19:46] or some heavy lifting rewriting packages for US [19:46] it would be great if something died [19:46] and we could fork it [19:46]