[00:01] <ailo_> astraljava, I suppose to offer a system perfectly tuned towards multimedia. And that has been the case with some of the release, but not all
[00:02] <astraljava> ailo_: Yeah, but all the tweaks could be written into packages (via postinsts etc.), such as removing NetworkManager and the like.
[00:02] <ailo_> astraljava, That's true
[00:03] <astraljava> There's only one thing that comes to mind; if the intended machine will not be connected to Internet, so you can download most everything you will need in one file.
[00:03] <astraljava> In exactly how many cases will this materialize?
[00:03] <astraljava> No one knows.
[00:04] <ailo_> It is becoming less and less common for people not to have Internet for sure. But, then there's the live image variant, which can be very useful too
[00:06] <ailo_> I wonder how much resources the awn together with XFCE takes compared to Unity or Gnome3
[00:06] <astraljava> I guess. I have a hard time figuring out a session where you've loaded the whole OS into RAM, and then start recording/processing/whatever. But it might happen, I could just be totally ignorant regarding such incidents.
[00:06] <ailo_> Maybe there should be a multimedia panel, that replaces all other panels :)
[00:07] <astraljava> Not altogether a bad idea. :)
[00:07] <ailo_> astraljava, You would never record on to RAM. You would use the existing hard drive or an external one
[00:07] <ailo_> But, loading apps into RAM is what you do either way
[00:07] <ailo_> And it works just as well, only loading the apps is slower
[00:07] <ailo_> From CD especially, it's slower to load tha apps
[00:08] <astraljava> ailo_: Of course, but the data doesn't go directly to the disk without running through RAM first,  or does it?
[00:08] <astraljava> ailo_: I guess you're right, it shouldn't be any different.
[00:08] <ailo_> astraljava, I believe the OS runs pretty much identically, only that it reads programs from the live image when it loads, so it takes longer time
[00:09] <ailo_> But running them is the same
[00:09] <astraljava> Yep, don't know what I was thinking. :)
[00:09] <ailo_> puredyne has a persistant live image, which you can create users on, and even install programs. 
[00:09] <ailo_> Using usb stick that is
[00:09] <ailo_> It's really handy
[00:10] <ailo_> You can bring your own system to any other machine
[00:10] <astraljava> Yeah, never used but am aware. That's pretty nifty.
[00:12] <ailo_> I used puredyne 911 as a live machine. Installed on hard drive. XFCE. The rt kernel from karmic. A very nice system
[00:12] <ailo_> The live image comes in two sizes. CD and DVD
[00:13] <ailo_> So, you have all the combinations you can think of
[00:16] <ailo_> I would probably use the Puredyne live image creation as the base for an Ubuntu Studio live image
[02:19] <Kokito> howdy
[02:23]  * Kokito is listening to Santana while shredding old useless documents
[02:36] <ScottL> astraljava, one of the benefits of providing an install ISO for ubuntu studio is what we choose to exclude :)
[02:37] <ScottL> oh, i see someone pointed this out
[02:38] <ScottL> holstein, i just read in LXF that even though gnome3 has a fallback option to gnome panel, it is configured to behave like gnome shell
[02:38] <ScottL> so, this means yes, we could try to default to gnome panel that is included with gnome 3 but it will still perform and look like gnome 3 without the 3d acceleration
[04:11] <holstein> ScottL: yeah
[04:11] <holstein> thats what im thinking
[04:11] <holstein> im looking for the option on the live CD i have
[04:11] <holstein> i'll have to get a new live CD though
[15:57] <holstein> ScottL: chkontros?
[15:58] <holstein> ckontros?
[15:59] <astraljava> It's only 11 am, he can't possibly be up yet. *grin*
[15:59] <holstein> hehe
[15:59] <holstein> astraljava: is it chontos?
[16:00] <holstein> chontros
[16:00] <astraljava> ckontros, and he's not even on the channel.
[16:00] <astraljava> holstein: What do you use for IRC?
[16:00] <holstein> astraljava: yeah, thats why i cant remember his nick ;)
[16:00] <holstein> astraljava: i have irssi in screen
[16:01] <astraljava> Okay, so you should have nick completion in tab.
[16:01] <astraljava> Very useful to tell whether someone's on channel or not, as irssi doesn't show joined nicks by default.
[16:03] <holstein> astraljava: yeah
[16:03] <holstein> im not looking for him
[16:03] <holstein> i want to refer to him in an email
[16:03] <holstein> and couldnt remember the nick
[16:03] <astraljava> Ahh... sorry. :)
[16:04] <holstein> no worries
[16:04] <holstein> i wasnt clear about it ;)
[16:04] <astraljava> Yeah it's ckontros, c for Cory.
[16:35] <astraljava> holstein: Trimming is recommended. :)
[16:36] <holstein> trimming?
[16:36] <holstein> i thought maybe i had accidentally sent that long, bitchy email i composed
[16:36] <holstein> to the mailing list ;)
[16:38] <astraljava> No I mean when responding to others' posts, scrap the irrelevant portion.
[16:38] <astraljava> :)
[16:39] <holstein> astraljava: i thought i had
[16:39] <astraljava> When there's 257 lines in the post, it becomes tiresome checking it all for content.
[16:39] <holstein> or, i thought it was not shown
[16:40] <astraljava> gmail?
[16:40] <holstein> it just shows up and 'quoted text' for me
[16:40] <holstein> yeah
[16:40] <astraljava> Yeah.
[16:40] <holstein> that thread is ridiculous anyways
[16:40] <holstein> thats it for me
[16:40] <astraljava> It doesn't show it to you, but it will still be sent.
[16:40] <astraljava> Yeah I agree it got out of hand.
[16:41] <holstein> its just emotional
[16:41] <holstein> which is good in a way
[16:41] <holstein> even that last one
[16:41] <holstein> 'i dont know what XFCE is, but..'
[16:41] <holstein> its like, go Fn look 
[16:41] <astraljava> That's partly true, but...
[16:41] <holstein> theres xubuntu and puredyne
[16:42] <astraljava> Yeah exactly.
[16:42] <holstein> and that other hard-on
[16:42] <holstein> that was like 5 or 6 back and forth threads
[16:42] <holstein> and then, "OH, i thought we were talking about LXDE'
[16:42] <astraljava> Haha! Yeah cracked me up. :D
[16:42] <holstein> its a passionate crowd though
[16:42] <holstein> and thats good
[16:43] <holstein> we just need to get them in here
[16:43] <holstein> and involved
[16:43] <astraljava> Yeah I guess.
[16:43] <holstein> involved in testing
[16:43] <holstein> and fixing, instead of bitching
[16:43] <holstein> *something i have been guilty of
[16:43] <holstein> thats partially why i wanted to get involved with fluxbuntu
[16:43] <holstein> stop bitching and fix it
[16:44] <holstein> so, now that i dont have time
[16:44] <holstein> i cant bitch about it anymore ;)
[16:45] <astraljava> Well of course you can. :) People are allowed to have opinions. :)
[16:45] <holstein> hehe
[17:15] <ScottL> oi, i'm here
[17:16] <ScottL> i find the "we're changing to xfce" thread to be wearing thin on my patience
[17:19] <astraljava> Maybe let it die already? :)
[17:20] <ScottL> yes, you are right astraljava 
[17:21] <astraljava> But in hindsight, maybe Cory should have mentioned Gnome2 going away? Might have dismissed many who now nag about not using that.
[17:21] <astraljava> Or GNOME 2, whatever.
[17:22] <ScottL> yes, that would have helped quite a bit too ;)
[17:22] <ScottL> but it would be helpful if people would read the rest of the thread to see if there is other information
[17:23] <astraljava> Yeah, mailing list etiquette is lost on so many of us.
[17:23] <ScottL> or if they would provide something tangible to argue against using xfce
[17:24] <ScottL> i really welcome ANY information, pro or con
[17:24] <ScottL> it would give us _some_ basis
[17:24] <astraljava> Mostly people are just not comfortable for leaving something they have used for a long time.
[17:26] <astraljava> Oh crap, did we have the meeting soon?!
[17:34] <ScottL> oh....
[17:35] <ScottL> i think we missed it :/
[17:35] <ScottL> lol, i'm a bad lead :(
[17:37] <astraljava> No no, wasn't it 17:00 UTC?
[17:37] <astraljava> In less than half an hour.
[17:43] <ScottL> eh, i thought it was 1.75 hours ago, but either way we don't have a published agenda :(
[17:44] <astraljava> Ahh... true.
[18:10] <holstein> ScottL: dood
[18:10] <holstein> i had a long message like that earlier
[18:10] <holstein> that i deleted
[18:10] <holstein> im *so* glad that went out :)
[18:11] <holstein> astraljava: i agree
[18:11] <holstein> we could have announced it better probably
[18:11] <holstein> however, there are threads with that information in them
[18:29] <astraljava> holstein: True, but most people only see the official statement, and neglect to read the rest of the conversation.
[18:30] <astraljava> Okay I'll be watching hockey for a while now, maybe see ya later.
[19:02] <ScottL> holstein, you mean the post where i explained the reasons again?
[19:06] <Kokito> howdy
[19:09] <ScottL> hi Kokito 
[19:10] <Kokito> sorry that I missed the meeting
[19:10] <ScottL> we didn't really have a meeting, its been overshadowed by the "we're moving to xfce" thread i fear
[19:11] <ScottL> i think it made everyone forget the meeting ;)
[19:11] <ScottL>  
[19:11] <Kokito> ouch
[19:11] <ScottL> i could have handled some of the emails better
[19:12] <ScottL> i realize that i probably should have simply responded by acknowledging their position (xfce=bad) and then ask if they can provide more information
[19:12] <Kokito> I thought you showed a lot of patience
[19:13] <ScottL> lol, Kokito , thank you but i fear you are being gracious with that adjective :P
[19:14] <ScottL> i tend to be very objective orientated with points and conterpoints and very direct engagement
[19:14] <ScottL> i have a point to discussing and i want you to attack my position with logic and reason
[19:14] <ScottL> i score "major" points with my wife you can probably guess ;)
[19:14] <Kokito> :)
[19:18] <ScottL> Kokito, since you are here, how is the website going?
[19:18] <ScottL> oh, i'll probably do an apology email later on about this whole xfce thing, apologizing for not explaining it well originally and how i reacted by getting short with people
[19:20] <ScottL> Stuzz from #opensourcemusicians helped me with some drums:  http://tinyurl.com/Braaiinnzzz
[19:20] <holstein> ScottL: thats nice :)
[19:20] <holstein> * the track
[19:23] <Kokito> hey holstein 
[19:24] <Kokito> ScottL: I don't much of an opinion on the XFCE debate
[19:26] <ScottL> Kokito, and i respect that position
[19:27] <ScottL> i also respect the position that says "it's bad for X reason"...i was looking forward to this actually
[19:27] <Kokito> my only observation would be that, in Ubuntu, of all Unity is most likely to get the most development push/resources and thus seems to me the preferable choice if you consider long term growth.
[19:27] <ScottL> i wanted to understand really how people felt and fully wanted to validate our decision by exploring where people felt it as wrong for a particular reason
[19:28] <ScottL> Kokito, i'm not sure i agree with that argument because xfce is an upstream development, just like gnome was before
[19:28] <Kokito> staying with the mainstream Ubuntu may give you a better chance at cross-polination of resources
[19:28] <ScottL> hmmm, that's an interesting thought though (cross pollination of resources)
[19:29] <ScottL> but development should continue with xfce  without ubuntu's involved (which i imagine was little anyway)
[19:30] <ScottL> i mean development in a general sense for xfce, not our development with xfce
[19:30] <ScottL>  
[19:30] <ScottL> if we were going to use something besides xfce i would prefer gnome3 at this point over unity however
[19:31] <ScottL> simply because i think it is a more refined, stable, and functional base than unity AT THIS POINT
[19:31] <ScottL> i fully expect unity develop to keep up the amazing pace they have demonstrated last cycle
[19:32] <Kokito> ScottL: in my ignorance, adopting XFCE instead of Unity also feels like moving away from Ubuntu/Canonical. This has nothing to do with technical viability, but I am not sure if it may or may not have an (negative?) effect on the relationship with Canonical. Maybe I am just a bit too paranoid :)
[19:48] <ScottL> Kokito, haha, i don't think that's paranoia , just practical sense
[19:48] <ScottL> but my perspective is that canonical views ubuntu studio, not with disdain, but perhaps indifference
[19:49] <ScottL> i don't think, but i may be wrong, that shuttleworth is concerned that a niche derivative moves away from unity
[19:50] <ScottL> at least i am unaware of _any_ correspondence to anyone on the team from anyone in canonical in regards to the DE
[19:54] <Kokito> I never thought there was any disdain towards US. I tend to think, though, that staying on the mainstream Ubuntu (ie., Unity) gives you a better chance of being seen as potentially of value to Ubuntu core
[19:58] <Kokito> if instead of switching to XFCE the US team helps address whatever workflow shortcomings Unity may have, then your value (from a Canonical POV) increases; in contrast, moving to XFCE will most likely result in more indifference
[20:01] <Kokito> perhaps the change to Unity opens an opportunity to become more engaged with the Ubuntu core dev team, which cannot be bad IMHO
[20:05] <Kokito> but what do I know anyway Ñ=
[20:05] <Kokito> oops! that was meant to be a :)
[20:05] <Kokito> bbl
[20:10] <holstein> yeah, i can relate with that opinion
[20:10] <holstein> however, #2 with canonnical is kubuntu
[20:15] <ScottL> that was a good point
[20:37] <holstein> ScottL: did you see robert klaar's email?
[20:38] <holstein> i just responded
[20:38] <holstein> that is a great email
[20:38] <holstein> thats what we need*
[20:38] <holstein> healthy educated debate
[20:38] <holstein> actually, thats what we needed
[20:38] <holstein> its too late now
[20:39] <holstein> back when we had the thread about discussing the UI change
[20:39] <holstein> that would have been a great time for the debate
[20:39] <holstein> but, whatever
[20:55] <ScottL> yeah, that's good stuff, including hartmut and michaels 2nd response
[20:55] <holstein> yeah
[20:56] <holstein> things are much more clear now that you put the hammer down ;)
[20:56] <holstein> i can work with that
[20:56] <ScottL> but still the majority seems to think it will be a good move, including hartmut :)
[20:56] <holstein> michael is the same guy that said twice 'i think theres a compatibility mode' too
[20:57] <holstein> thats quite an improvment from 'i think there might be a way to keep gnome2'
[20:57] <ScottL> oh....well, he's right though, there is one...it's just not probably what he thought it would be :P
[20:57] <ScottL> lol
[20:57] <ScottL> yeah
[20:57] <ScottL> i wonder if we could translate this into more testers, bear with me...
[20:58] <ScottL> what if we said we're still moving with xfce, BUT...
[20:58] <ScottL> you think unity is better, fine, help us develop a way to test this and include it as an install time option
[20:58] <ScottL> edubuntu does this
[20:58] <ScottL> er, but then again, this might just shut people up
[20:59] <holstein> well, it might just chill folks out to know that we are planning on testing apps in unity
[20:59] <holstein> which we will/can
[20:59] <holstein> and that the current vanilla install would render unitystudio
[20:59] <holstein> pretty much
[21:00] <ScottL> ailo__, i'm putting natty on my main rig so i can test the -lowlatency with other hardware now
[21:00] <ailo__> ok