[00:00] <hiatus> well, I found them entertaining because they were chaotic ^.^
[00:00] <ali1234> the question is how do you turn a bunch of random rants into something that is useful
[00:00] <ali1234> it needs to be coherent more than anything
[00:00] <nhaines> ali1234: since many of the rants are from people who saw a screenshot and haven't actually used Unity.. they're not that useful.  :)
[00:01] <ali1234> i think they are
[00:01] <nhaines> Not for fixing Unity, anyway.  Maybe that's useful for marketing Unity.
[00:01] <nhaines> ali1234: well they're not.
[00:01] <ali1234> if people don't like the screenshots they'er not going to try it?
[00:01] <nhaines> If someone doesn't understand how Unity works and refuses to try it, they can't offer feedback on how it works.
[00:01] <hiatus> I'm not sure what your experience is, but I would take the outlook similar to when I buy something online. If I want to buy an air purifier. I look at the most negative comments and you will find some link in them. like "Its too loud! while a good products negative comments will have no consistent negative
[00:01] <nhaines> hiatus: I do the same.
[00:02] <Omega> hiatus: I'm sorry but your friend needs to hear this: he's an ignorant idiot.
[00:02] <ali1234> that means someone has to read all the rants and figure out what people don't like :)
[00:02] <Omega> Does he even know what communism is?
[00:02] <nhaines> ali1234: they don't like that it's different.  :)
[00:02] <nhaines> Omega: not helpful or constructive.  :(
[00:02] <ali1234> i don't think that is true
[00:03] <hiatus> nhaines: Not everyone criticizing unity is gathering their information from screenshots. Thats a pretty protective way of speaking
[00:03] <ali1234> ok, maybe a lot don't like it because it is different
[00:03] <ali1234> but there are common threads in the rest that go beyond that
[00:03] <hiatus> hes actually a socialist
[00:03] <nhaines> hiatus: I'm only talking about the ones who start out their rants with "I've never used Unity and I never will because..."  I don't think that's protective.
[00:03] <ali1234> i haven't seen many rants like that
[00:04] <nhaines> ali1234: those might be the ones I'm not talking about.
[00:04] <hiatus> well, naturally. My friends crazy rants has used unity though
[00:04] <Omega> nhaines: I'm hoping that he can be educated.
[00:04] <nhaines> ali1234: don't read omgubuntu.co.uk, eh?  :)
[00:04] <ali1234> god no
[00:04] <ali1234> that whole site is just trolls trolling trolls
[00:05] <Omega> Communism is a post-statist socialist society.
[00:05] <nhaines> Omega: there's a code of conduct that governs this official Ubuntu channel.
[00:05] <nhaines> Don't get me wrong, everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter what I think about it.
[00:05] <ali1234> anyway as you said, it's important for marketing
[00:05] <Omega> nhaines: That is correct, note that I was not attacking hiatus.
[00:05] <nhaines> Omega: I note that you were attacking his friend.
[00:06] <nhaines> And there's definitely no requirement to be constructive while venting on the Internet.
[00:06] <ali1234> just cos you're having a go at someone who isn't here doesn't make it ok... in fact i think that is worse
[00:06] <hiatus> I didn't think omega was. Omega: I know what communism is, and so does he. He was just ranting
[00:06] <Omega> nhaines: Except I wasn't the one venting.
[00:06] <nhaines> Omega: I'm talking about Unity rants.
[00:06] <ali1234> anyway as i was saying... marketing is important for something like unity
[00:07] <ali1234> surely the whole point of it is to get new users, not old ones
[00:07] <hiatus> yeah, marketing means more users, and more users means more drivers
[00:07] <Omega> nhaines: I don't understand then, I commented on his friend as he is commenting on unity.
[00:07] <ali1234> so if the new users look at screenshots and don't like it... that's important
[00:07] <hiatus> well, potentially anyway
[00:08] <nhaines> The funny thing is, every time I've shown Unity to novice computer users, it's always been met with by excitement.  Which surprised me.
[00:08] <nhaines> Omega: calling someone an "ignorant idiot" is not constructive.
[00:08] <hiatus> well nhaines. I will show you otherwise
[00:08] <Omega> That's why I continued to explain why he is ignorant and to explain what communism is.
[00:08] <ali1234> ok, but what about windows users?
[00:09] <nhaines> hiatus: you can't show me otherwise.  You can't show me that every time I've shown Unity to novice users they haven't been excited.
[00:09] <hiatus> also, did you have to explain how to use unity to those people?
[00:09] <nhaines> ali1234: they've all been Windows users.  hiatus: The introduction was showing how Unity worked, on a very basic level.
[00:10] <hiatus> or did those people express interest and excitement all on there own? Because I intend to show people gnome 2 and unity without any prepping and see what people do
[00:10] <nhaines> Omega: none of that makes the name calling constructive or acceptable.  (Or on-topic)
[00:10] <nhaines> hiatus: I can't do that during a presentation with an audience.
[00:10] <hiatus> you cant, I can
[00:11] <ali1234> an important thing to realise is this
[00:11] <nhaines> hiatus: you can have a single computer with a projector and just turn it on and see what people do?  They walk out, I imagine.
[00:11] <ali1234> if you give windows users gnome 2 they will immediately compare it to windows
[00:11] <hiatus> and you want people to know how to use unity immediately. you do not want people to have to explain it to them before they can use it
[00:11] <ali1234> they'll think they know how it works and be disappointed when it differs
[00:11] <hiatus> I intend to do it on a person by person basis
[00:11] <ali1234> because it looks kind of familiar... but some parts are quite different
[00:11] <Omega> I'll just stop here and go do something else.
[00:11] <nhaines> hiatus: that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
[00:11] <hiatus> you have no idea how boring my job is
[00:11] <ali1234> when they hit one, (which may be a week down the line) they'll get mad
[00:12] <ali1234> but with unity, it's immediately different, and it's own thing
[00:12] <ali1234> this will make novice users more open to accepting change
[00:12] <nhaines> hiatus: I'll repeat.  When I give a presentation, wrap up, and then pull up the desktop and say "This is Ubuntu", people are impressed.
[00:12] <hiatus> oh please
[00:12] <nhaines> And while I was really expecting to have to sell people on the different interface, in my experience it hasn't happened.
[00:12] <hiatus> have you ever been to a presentation where people are not impressed?
[00:13] <ali1234> i have lol
[00:13] <nhaines> hiatus: plenty.
[00:13] <Omega> I will direct you to the Code of Conduct though, because I did not go against it. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
[00:13] <hiatus> Its a presentation, the whole thing is to impress people. I have seen people impressed at WebOS conferences
[00:13] <hiatus> and Windows phone 7
[00:13] <ali1234> windows phone 7 is good
[00:13] <nhaines> Omega: "Be respectful."
[00:13] <ali1234> people are right to be impressed by it
[00:13] <Omega> nhaines: To one another.
[00:13] <ali1234> it certainly is miles better than WM6
[00:14] <nhaines> Omega: I assert that name-calling is not respectful.
[00:15] <hiatus> the thing I hear about windows phone 7 from people is how "fluid" it is. Well, it has a minimal requirement of a 1ghz cpu and has no multiple desktops or widgets, or anything. It better be "fluid"
[00:15] <Omega> nhaines: I did not call anyone in here any names.
[00:15] <Omega> And calling an ignorant person ignorant isn't name calling.
[00:16] <ali1234> hiatus: sounds like those people like it though
[00:16] <nhaines> Omega: please do not try to excuse unacceptable behavior by trying to paint the target as an acceptable target. I don't care if he's in here ornot.
[00:16] <hiatus> nhaines: just ignore him
[00:16] <hiatus> Omega: We are moving on, no one cares
[00:17] <nhaines> Omega: My personal recomendation is to leave out the name calling and stick with the interesting comments that followed.  And that's all I have to say about that in this channel.
[00:17] <Omega> Is this acceptable behaviour? ^
[00:17] <hiatus> ali1234: I think when more development is done on wp7. You will see increasingly more problems. Its not selling well as it is either
[00:17] <nhaines> Omega: If you don't believe it is, you can bring it up with the Ubuntu IRC Council.
[00:18] <Omega> nhaines: Not what you said, but what hiatus said.
[00:18] <ali1234> hiatus: perhaps... i don't think it will be a total flop though (zune)
[00:18] <nhaines> What astonishes me about Microsoft is their inabilty to follow through with useful ideas.
[00:18] <ali1234> they are pretty much guaranteed to be the number 3 OS now
[00:19] <ali1234> nhaines: yes, totally... so much good R&D, none of it ever becomes available
[00:19] <ali1234> or when it does it's totally watered down and useless
[00:19] <nhaines> ali1234: or when it does, it's quickly abandoned.
[00:19] <ali1234> that too
[00:19] <Omega> Turning a blind eye?
[00:20] <hiatus> Omega: I am not here to discuss communism, so even if you were to continue the conversation. I would just ignore you anyway. It wasn't even my comment and he is well educated in communism. there is no need to instigate
[00:20] <hiatus> yeah, but they paid a few billion to nokia to nokia for them to adopt it
[00:20] <Omega> "no one cares"
[00:21] <Omega> Is that also part of being respectful?
[00:21] <ali1234> yeah... i actually think that will work out for them
[00:21] <hiatus> so, they better hope it sells well enough to recoup their losses
[00:21] <ali1234> if you compare the symbian SDK(s) and the meego SDK(s) and the maemo SDK(s) and all that vs ... visual studio express
[00:21] <hiatus> I dont think it will. nokia's market has always been the low end. And the 1 ghz cpu minimal requirement means they are losing a lot of their traditional userbase
[00:21] <ali1234> well, visual studio wins hands down
[00:22] <hiatus> ugh, don't get me started on that!
[00:22] <ali1234> nokia still has S40 for low end
[00:22] <ali1234> but, even low end is not so low any more these days
[00:23] <hiatus> Nokia: Develop apps for symbian! us: umm... ok Nokia: No, no, We are moving to gtk! learn how to developer for gtk! us: ugh... i guess... alright" Nokia: Lol, just kidding guys! Its all avbout QT! us: ....... Nokia: WINDOWS PHONE 7!!!! us: shut up nokia
[00:23] <ali1234> yes, that is really bad
[00:23] <ali1234> there's no question that that is a huge mess
[00:23] <ali1234> BUT
[00:24] <ali1234> it was a huge mess when they switched to Qt
[00:24] <ali1234> because they still kept around all the legacy stuff
[00:24] <ali1234> with WP7... it's just .net. nothing else
[00:24] <ali1234> no hundreds of sdks
[00:24] <hiatus> I just dont think that people have any confidence in their brand anymore
[00:24] <ali1234> end users do
[00:24] <ali1234> and they trust microsoft too
[00:25] <hiatus> I don't think they do either. Especially with cheaper android phones
[00:25] <ali1234> they have annoyed a lot of developers no question about that
[00:25] <ali1234> but developers aren't everything
[00:25] <hiatus> and android has been gobbling up what were traditionally nokia markets. i.e. india and china
[00:25] <ali1234> despite what ballmer says
[00:25] <ali1234> hmm... no
[00:25] <ali1234> nokia is still massive in india
[00:27] <hiatus> I think if I was a chinese dude, and I had a choice between a nokia windows phone 7 with a 1ghz cpu and a knock off droid with a 600 mhz cpu. I can probably afford the knock off android phone before I can afford the win7 phone.
[00:27] <hiatus> I cant see india buying 1 ghz phones in mass quanities. I can see them still selling symbian phones, but who would pick symbian over android?
[00:28] <hiatus> and nokia's sales even in india have been going down last time I checked
[00:28] <Omega> hiatus: I am sorry for engaging in namecalling against a friend of yours.
[00:28] <ali1234> i would pick symbian over android, that's why i have a nokia phone
[00:29] <ali1234> but it's because i want a reliable phone, not a shiny gadget that i need to upgrade every year
[00:29] <ali1234> that's the real problem of symbian, no "ecosystem" - all the users just want a phone that works
[00:30] <ali1234> that and the developer mess
[00:30] <ali1234> WP7 addresses both issues
[00:30] <hiatus> it does, but only to markets who can afford them
[00:30] <ali1234> all the existing nokia customers will happily go on using their current phone for the next 5 years
[00:30] <ali1234> so nothing lost by not making new symbian phones
[00:31] <hiatus> ehhh, I don't think so
[00:31] <hiatus> Android is "cooler" then symbian. and even indians fall for the "cool" effect
[00:31] <ali1234> yeah but the point is if they didn't buy symbian by now they're not going to
[00:32] <ali1234> so time to try something different
[00:32] <ali1234> and unfortunately meego is still probably 12 months from being ready
[00:32] <hiatus> well, We'll see. it will be interesting
[00:32] <hiatus> yeah, meego/maemo had so much potential ;.;
[00:33] <hiatus> I even almost bought an n900
[00:33] <ali1234> it's pretty amazing how quickly android was developed
[00:33] <ali1234> i have a n900... symbian is better
[00:33] <hiatus> yeah, its has an interesting life. I am looking forward to icedtea
[00:33] <ali1234> it much faster and more reliable
[00:34] <ali1234> that's purely as a phone though
[00:34] <ali1234> n900 has some killer features like skype integration
[00:34] <hiatus> yes... but I could screw around with it and boot up my little terminal apps...
[00:34] <hiatus> indeed!
[00:35] <Omega> hiatus: Please don't marginalize groups of people: "even indians",
[00:35] <hiatus> and ide's and stuff... it was a real computer os on a phone
[00:35] <ali1234> that has it's downsides though... because "real" computers are buggy and annoying
[00:36] <ali1234> my symbian phone has never crashed or frozen
[00:36] <ali1234> i've never even had to reset it
[00:36] <ali1234> it just works
[00:37] <hiatus> the more expansive the os, the more potential for bugs basically
[00:38] <ali1234> yes
[00:38] <ali1234> so we cut it right down to the bare essentials
[00:38] <hiatus> i wanted expansive phone os ;.;
[00:38] <ali1234> result: you lose some feature... maybe the one you like
[00:38] <ali1234> but on average it's better for most people
[00:39] <hiatus> well, I dunno. I think that depends on how development goes
[00:40] <hiatus> like Blackberry is still a very limited os, but I have seen it produce jvm errors because the code gets ignored
[00:40] <ali1234> well blackberry is another one that's in trouble... let's face it
[00:41] <ali1234> but another thing about nokia... even though they target the low end... their build quality is second to none
[00:41] <hiatus> yeah, I thought they had some potential until they said that QNX on phone's wouldn't come out for yet another year
[00:41] <ali1234> even their cheap phones have better build quality than some HTC android phone
[00:43] <hiatus> I still think people in developing countries are vain enough to be like "zomg! Your widgets are sooo kewllll!!!!! I wanna play bejeweled 2!"
[00:44] <ali1234> it doesn't matter because wp7 will have that
[00:44] <ali1234> even symbian has that if you really want it
[00:44] <hiatus> yeah, but wp7 will cost twice as much
[00:45] <hiatus> seriously, you can do ok on a 600 mhz or 800 mhz phone and the price difference between an 800 mhz processor and a snapdragon is huge
[00:45] <ali1234> today it's huge
[00:46] <ali1234> in a year there will only be 1Ghz+ cpus in smartphones
[00:46] <ali1234> probably dual core too
[00:46] <ali1234> it's only about 3 years since 200Mhz was considered high end
[00:46] <ali1234> maybe a bit more
[00:47] <ali1234> symbian was designed for like 8Mhz phones
[00:47] <ali1234> i guess that's why it runs so fast on modern hardware
[00:48] <hiatus> yeah, but when you start moving towards cores rather then clockspeed, that usually slows cpu development and look at how long its taking these dualcores to ship?
[00:48] <ali1234> they are shipping
[00:48] <ali1234> i can go buy a tablet with dual core 1Ghz tegra 2 for £199
[00:49] <hiatus> very few. Sony and motorola are still betting on the singlecore chip being a selling point for the next few months. It will be at least an year until they reach a level low enough to appeal to developing economies.
[00:50] <ali1234> maybe
[00:50] <ali1234> it will be at least 6 months before you can buy any wp7-nokia
[00:50] <hiatus> in the meantime, android has a year to kill nokia
[00:51] <hiatus> I'm betting they can. That was androids whole purpose anyway. To compete against stuff like brew
[00:53] <hiatus> well, thanks for tollerating my ramblings
[00:54] <hiatus> you were all very cool about it ^.^ and I will make some youtube videos of users experiences. It would be good data in general anyway
[00:54] <ali1234> like i said, i advice trying it for longer
[00:54] <hiatus> laters
[00:55] <ali1234> i had to force myself for the first two weeks
[00:55] <ali1234> cya later
[00:55] <hiatus> I will continue using it. there are things I do like about unity. I just needed to vent about the things I didnt
[00:56] <hiatus> and I think having your own desktop manager is important to make ubuntu distinctive from other distro's
[00:56] <hiatus> but anyhow, laters... again...
[07:54] <didrocks> good morning
[10:30] <Andy80> hi all!
[10:34] <Andy80> nerochiaro: ciao :)
[10:34] <nerochiaro> Andy80: hey :)
[10:44] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I'm trying to make qtest-qml work, but it looks like QtCreator/QMLViewer cannot detect it even after I've installed it :\
[10:45] <nerochiaro> Andy80: how did you install it ? and how are you trying to launch it ?
[10:46] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I installed it using these instructions: http://qt.gitorious.net/qt-labs/qtest-qml/blobs/master/README
[10:46] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I can compile it, I can make install ecc..... when I open the examples from QtCreator I get: module "QtQuickTest" is not installed
[10:47] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I've also created a PPA with qtest-qml package. I don't know if it works or not since it's my first PPA ever :) by the way, neither the manual way works....
[10:47] <nerochiaro> Andy80: maybe it gets installed in the wrong place because qmake uses a certain prefix which is different from the default one in ubuntu. can you check where it goes when you run make install ?
[10:50] <Andy80> nerochiaro: or maybe QtCreator uses the qt libs under ~/QtSDK/... instead of the libs available on the system... but I don't know how to change it.
[10:51] <nerochiaro> Andy80: do you have QT installed in the system (via apt-get) or are you working with a separate download ?
[10:51] <nerochiaro> or both ?
[10:55] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I've both. I was able to compile qtest-qml just using the qmake4 (and the libs of course) installed on my system. I cannot find any other qmlviewer installed in my system, else I would not use QtCreator to do tests....
[10:59] <Andy80> I've also asked on qt-qml mailing list of Nokia, but I'm still waiting for a reply... or better... the one who replied me didn't read my email at all before replying :) he just told me: he just told me to read the instructions here http://qt.gitorious.net/qt-labs/qtest-qml/blobs/master/README :P
[11:05] <nerochiaro> Andy80: you need to install the package qt4-qmlviewer if you want to get it from apt
[11:05] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I try now :)
[11:07] <nerochiaro> Andy80: also qtdemo is packaged in qt4-demos
[11:08] <Andy80> nerochiaro: but... I don't need qtdemo I think... anyway, it doesn't work neither with QmlViewer from repository...
[11:08] <nerochiaro> Andy80: there should be QML demos in there too
[11:09] <nerochiaro> Andy80: can you remind me what you're trying to do exactly ? i mean, the reason why you need to run the qtdemo-qml stuff
[11:10] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I don't need qtdem-qml, I need "qtest-qml". I need to learn how to use this unit test framework for QML
[11:10] <nerochiaro> Andy80: oh sorry, i didn't read correctly in the beginning :(
[11:10] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I followed the presentation here http://agilesoftwaredevelopment.com/blog/artem/test-driving-qml and also watched the video on Vimeo of the presentation... but maybe something is wrong..
[11:13] <nerochiaro> Andy80: try doing this: remove whatever version of Qt you have installed manually (for example from a downloaded SDK). ensure that you only have in your system the Qt version that is from the ubuntu repositories. then try again running qmake in qtest-qml (in a fresh terminal, just to be safe) and make install
[11:14] <nerochiaro> by doing this whatever you build with qmake should end up installed in the right place somewhere under /usr
[11:14] <nerochiaro> or at least that's what i would try first
[11:15] <nerochiaro> (it will probably be a good sign if when you do the make install it fails because you're not running it with sudo :))
[11:15] <Andy80> nerochiaro: the Qt path depends on the qmake you use. I used the system one, so the final destination should be the system one. /QtSDK/ is not added to system path, you can only use t from inside QtCreator
[11:15] <nerochiaro> Andy80: then where does it get installed ?
[11:16] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I run make install again and I copy you the result on pastebin, just a moment :)
[11:16] <nerochiaro> Andy80: good
[11:17] <Andy80> nerochiaro: here you have http://pastebin.com/7Mf5pFPJ
[11:18] <nerochiaro> Andy80: looks like it goes where it should go, inside the right directory
[11:20] <nerochiaro> Andy80: in qtcreator under Tools | Options you have a tab called "Qt4" where you can choose which installation of QT4 you want to use. You may want to make sure that is set to the correct one
[11:21] <nerochiaro> (and i mean the system one)
[11:22] <Andy80> nerochiaro: it's not exact that you can choose. You can define the Qt versions there. Anyway I've the system one (auto detected) and other 3: Qt for Fremantle, Qt Desktop and Simulator
[11:23] <Andy80> nerochiaro: anyway if I use qmlviewer from terminal, it uses the system one and it should detect the qtest-qml installation but it doesn't
[11:28] <nerochiaro> Andy80: hmm, what happens if you try to run /usr/bin/qmltestrunner ?
[11:29] <Andy80> nerochiaro: here is http://pastebin.com/czu7FqMJ
[11:30] <nerochiaro> Andy80: here's what I get: http://pastebin.com/2NRZ3kC6
[11:31] <nerochiaro> Andy80: what does "which qmake" say ?
[11:31] <Andy80> http://pastebin.com/czu7FqMJ
[11:31] <Andy80> sorry...
[11:32] <Andy80> /usr/bin/qmake
[11:33] <Andy80> nerochiaro: if you want I can try to run qmake, make clean, make, make install again...
[11:33] <nerochiaro> Andy80: hmmm, i can't think of anything else then. all i can say is that i suspect all these QT versions are messing up with each other. I recall i had issues in the past when i had both my customized Qt build and the one from packages, but it was quite some time ago and i don't recall how did I fix the problems
[11:34] <nerochiaro> Andy80: try that, perhaps from a new terminal so that you're sure you have clean env variables
[11:34] <Andy80> nerochiaro: but as I already said, Qt versions included in QtSDK are self contained and not added to the system PATH
[11:36] <nerochiaro> Andy80: i am not saying that is not true. but clearly they conflict in some way, or you wouldn't have these issues. here with just the ubuntu's QT i git cloned the repo, qmake, make, sudo make install and things seems to work fine
[11:36] <nerochiaro> Andy80: what about you just try into a VM with only system stuff ? i know it's probably overkill, but it will surely work
[11:36] <Andy80> nerochiaro: which Ubuntu version are you using? I'm making all these tests on a Natty version, running on VirtualBox
[11:36] <nerochiaro> natty too
[11:37] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I can just try to uninstall QtSDK if you want :)
[11:37] <nerochiaro> Andy80: perhaps the best thing would be to try and uninstall qt in apt and reinstall it
[11:38] <nerochiaro> Andy80: it may be that you accidentally installed some libraries from the SDK that overwrote the system ones. i don't really know, but it seems to me that your system in that VM is not clean as if you had just installed ubuntu and simply used apt to install qt4
[11:39] <Andy80> nerochiaro: recompiling and reinstalling qtest-qml didn't work...
[11:39] <Andy80> nerochiaro: the only mess I could have done is that I packaged qtest-qml on that system.... but nothing else
[11:40] <nerochiaro> Andy80: then i don't really know, sorry :( what I personally do, if I had your problem, would be to create a new VM with a fresh natty install, then just install in there qt4 from the repos, then try again with that git repo
[11:40] <nerochiaro> but that's just me
[11:41] <Andy80> nerochiaro: well... I have another pc with Natty installed, I can try that
[11:42] <nerochiaro> Andy80: might work
[11:45] <Andy80> nerochiaro: going to have a quick lunch, I'll be back later
[11:46] <nerochiaro> Andy80: time for a cup of tea for me. ttyl
[11:54] <Andy80> nerochiaro: /usr/bin/burp :P now I try on the other pc!
[12:13] <Andy80> nerochiaro: on the other PC even worse :P Executing /usr/bin/qmltestrunner just keep the disk busy and doesn't show anything on terminal :\ ok it's a netbook, not powerful like a desktop pc, but....
[12:15] <nerochiaro> Andy80: hmm, not really sure what's going on there. can you run your own tests in that other PC ?
[12:16] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I don't have any. If I neither cannot run bundled tests, how can I learn how to use it and write my own :\ ?
[12:17] <nerochiaro> Andy80: then what were you trying to do before on the other machine ? I told you about qmltestrunner, but I understood that before you were trying to run something else.
[12:18] <Andy80> nerochiaro: which machine? The pc who is stalling with disk busy or the virtualbox one?
[12:18] <nerochiaro> the virtualbox
[12:18] <nerochiaro> Andy80: you were trying to run something there that wasn't qmltestrunner, and it wasn't working. what was it ?
[12:20] <Andy80> nerochiaro: oh it was on the virtualbox one... I try that on the netbook too, wait...
[12:21] <Andy80> nerochiaro: (come non detto!) the netbook completed the tests and they ran fine just like on your machine
[12:21] <Andy80> nerochiaro: but... in the netbook I also have QtSDK installed :P
[12:23] <nerochiaro> Andy80: as you said just having the SDK is not a problem. but it looks like you messed up something on your virtual machine. i don't know what. but since it's a VM it's very easy to just make a new one with a fresh install of natty and work there in a 100% clean environment, no ?
[12:25] <nerochiaro> Andy80: interesting fact that it took such a long time to finish the tests on the netbook, by the way
[12:25] <Andy80> nerochiaro: yeah, that's probably what I'll have to do, sigh :(
[12:25] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I prepared it yesterday from scratch -.-
[12:27] <nerochiaro> Andy80: perhaps in making a new one from scratch you will figure out what was the mistake with the first one ;) in any case, make a snapshot of the VM when you just finished installing natty. it will save you a lot of time in case you do any mistakes down the road
[12:35] <Andy80> nerochiaro: f**k the bad written wiki pages!!!
[12:36] <nerochiaro> Andy80: which ones ?
[12:36] <Andy80> nerochiaro: it was because I modified the .pro file of the project since the packaging guide told me to do that!
[12:36] <nerochiaro> Andy80: what page told you that ?
[12:37] <Andy80> nerochiaro: this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/QtApplication
[12:38] <Andy80> nerochiaro: JCastro told us to delete at least 5 wiki pages? well.. this will be the first :P
[12:39] <Andy80> nerochiaro: now the qmltestrunner works also on my virtualbox installation :P
[12:39] <nerochiaro> Andy80: excellent :)
[12:40] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I'll leave the idea of packaging it for the moment... but I want to learn to do it when I've some spare time
[12:40] <nerochiaro> Andy80: maybe try that magic tool that they presented during uds. i don't recall the name, pkgme or something
[12:41] <Andy80> nerochiaro: no pls!
[12:41] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I prefer not packaging that using a tool that does everything for me.
[12:41] <Andy80> nerochiaro: I want full control of what I'm doing
[12:41] <nerochiaro> Andy80: makes sense
[12:41] <nerochiaro> Andy80: there is probably a more up to date packaging guide in the wiki
[12:42] <Andy80> nerochiaro: this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete ?
[12:43] <Andy80> nerochiaro: by the way... I just checked the package I generated... it only contains doc files and readme O_o no libs or bin at all! :(
[12:44] <nerochiaro> Andy80: can't help you much with that right now, sorry. Packaging is a pain for me too, if it's any consolation ;)
[12:45] <Andy80> nerochiaro: don't worry, I hope I'll find someone in the whole community :D let's concentrate on QML stuff for the moment ;)
[12:45] <nerochiaro> Andy80: good idea :)
[13:46] <nerochiaro> JohnLea: during one of the unity sessions at UDS there was some discussion about how global menubars are problematic when the user has an high resolution screen. do you know if there's any bug open to track this ?
[13:51] <agateau_> dbarth_: kaleo: regarding "edge reveal" support in unity-2d (https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-2d/+bug/760537) do we plan to SRU a fix for it? if no I think it does not make much sense to finish the fix since the current code is going to be rebased on a common unity-launcher libraries, do you agree?
[13:51] <agateau_> *library
[14:05] <JohnLea> nerochiaro; if it is not a bug already please report it and ping me the bug number.  I haven't reported it because it is a design requirement feeding into re-design work we are going to do bug reporting it as a bug as well will not do any harm.  Allthough there is prob. a bug about this issue already
[14:58] <kaleo> agateau: how much work is it to finish the fix?
[15:00] <agateau> kaleo: not much I think
[15:01] <agateau> kaleo: but it does not make sense to do it if it's not going to be release
[15:01] <agateau> *released
[15:02] <hicham> hi didrocks
[15:02] <didrocks> hey hicham
[15:03] <nerochiaro> JohnLea: I wasn't able to find any bug regarding that global menubar issue. Maybe you can have a look too, just to make sure, before i open one
[15:03] <hicham> didrocks: I still can't see how to set a unity separate profile
[15:03] <hicham> didrocks: do you patch compizconfig package ?
[15:04] <didrocks> hicham: no, I pointed to the compiz package for that
[15:04] <didrocks> and I pointed you to the needed files as well, what is missing? :/
[15:04] <hicham> didrocks: compizconfig gconf schemas
[15:05] <didrocks> this is generated by compiz itself at build time
[15:06] <kaleo> agateau: well, how sure are you that the edge-reveal behaviour will be 1) in the shared service 2) released in time for Oneiric?
[15:08] <agateau> kaleo: 1) if we implement what we decided (have a service which receives input events and provide scene description) then I am 100% sure it will be in the shared service 2) not sure at all
[15:08] <hicham> didrocks: according to your script, you look for /apps/compizconfig-1/current_profile in gconf
[15:09] <didrocks> hicham: this one has no schema, it's generated by compiz at runtime
[15:09] <didrocks> hicham: do you still have the logs for last time? I was thinking I was quite extensive on the subject with /etc/compizconfig/ file?
[15:09] <didrocks> do you install the file in /etc/compizconfig/ with the additional profile?
[15:10] <hicham> didrocks: yes, I have unity.ini in /etc/compizconfig
[15:10] <JohnLea> nerochiaro; go ahead and open a bug, thx!
[15:10] <didrocks> hicham: but did you change /etc/compizconfig/config ?
[15:10] <kaleo> agateau: 2) and also the various related projects that will use the Natty version make me think that we should do it
[15:11] <hicham> didrocks: yes, I added [general_unity] section
[15:11] <hicham> didrocks: backend = gconf
[15:11] <didrocks> hicham: so you have COMPIZ_CONFIG_PROFILE=unity right?
[15:11] <agateau> kaleo: ok
[15:12] <didrocks> (as an environment variable)
[15:12] <hicham> hicham: yes, in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/65compiz_profile-on-session and /usr/bin/unity
[15:12] <hicham> didrocks: yes, in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/65compiz_profile-on-session and /usr/bin/unity
[15:13] <didrocks> hicham: don't care about /usr/bin/unity, this wrapper is only for running unity manually
[15:13] <didrocks> not needed if autostarted
[15:13] <didrocks> so ok
[15:13] <didrocks> let's try with the ini backend
[15:14] <didrocks> hicham: try that in the config file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/608430/
[15:14] <didrocks> hicham: this should finally use unity.ini, which should start unity
[15:18] <nerochiaro> JohnLea: Done. Bug 783499
[15:19] <hicham> didrocks: no luck, do you want "unity --replace" log ?
[15:19] <didrocks> hicham: that won't give anything, the unity wrapper doesn't use that as I told you. You should logout/login and paste ~/.xsession-errors
[15:20] <hicham> didrocks: so what should I use ? "compiz --relace ccp" ?
[15:21] <didrocks> hicham: You should logout/login and paste ~/.xsession-errors
[15:21] <didrocks> see ^^
[15:21] <hicham> didrocks: unity loads fine, if done by hand
[15:22] <hicham> didrocks: what is the point of logging out /in ?
[15:22] <didrocks> 16:21:53     hicham | didrocks: unity loads fine, if done by hand
[15:22] <didrocks> -> right, because you use the unity wrapper
[15:23] <didrocks> as I told there, it's not used by the compiz profile
[15:23] <didrocks> so, I want to get the normal loading, hence logout/login
[15:23] <hicham> didrocks: I don't use the unity wrapper, I am trying to use it
[15:23] <didrocks> 16:21:53     hicham | didrocks: unity loads fine, if done by hand
[15:23] <didrocks> -> what do you use?
[15:24] <hicham> enabling unityshell in the default profile, then "compiz --replace ccp"
[15:24] <didrocks> and which profile is in use?
[15:24] <didrocks> it's on the output
[15:25] <didrocks> when you start compiz
[15:25] <didrocks> but again, I prefer you to use the profile system and ensuring you are using the right one, as the fact I ask you to logout/login and paste ~/.xsession-errors
[15:31] <didrocks> hicham: did you try that?
[15:45] <hicham> didrocks: ok, one sec ( sorry, I was having lunch )
[15:48] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/3mCc
[15:49] <didrocks> hicham: Profile     : default
[15:49] <didrocks> here is the issue
[15:49] <didrocks> hicham: can you pastebin /etc/compizconfig/config please?
[15:49] <didrocks> and $ env | grep COMPIZ
[15:49] <didrocks> of course :)
[15:52] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/5iN3
[15:52] <hicham> didrocks: "env | grep COMPIZ" returns nothing
[15:52] <didrocks> hicham: should give COMPIZ_CONFIG_PROFILE=unity
[15:53] <didrocks> this is your issue then
[15:53] <didrocks> seem your Xsession.d/ script isn't right
[15:54] <hicham> didrocks: should I have GDMSESSION in env ?
[15:55] <didrocks> if you use gdm yes :)
[15:55] <didrocks> GDMSESSION=gnome for instance
[15:55] <didrocks> it's the name of the .desktop you choosed in gdm
[15:56] <ubuntu_user_31> I need help with reseting unity. If you can help plese do.
[15:56] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/BMOK
[15:56] <hicham> didrocks: I don't have GDMSESSION set in env
[15:57] <hicham> didrocks: and I use gdm
[15:57] <didrocks> hicham: weird, we don't carry a patch for that in ubuntu
[15:57] <didrocks> hicham: maybe something changed in gdm 3, you should check for that
[15:58] <apw> can anyone sched any light on the F10 behaviour in unity, specifically i have moved my F10 since login due to a keyboard layout, and the menu is now on both keys dispite only one being F10
[15:58] <hicham> didrocks: if GDMSESSION isn't exported, is there any other workaround ?
[15:59] <didrocks> hicham: you need to find something to set COMPIZ_CONFIG_PROFILE=unity depending on the .desktop file you choose at gdm login, not sure what gdm upstream did
[16:00] <hicham> didrocks: so then writing a custom launcher seems to be the solution
[16:00] <didrocks> hicham: yeah, if fedora doesn't want to keep a session variable as they did before
[16:01] <hicham> didrocks: ok, now I set COMPIZ_CONFIG_PROFILE manually, then launch "compiz --replace ccp"
[16:01] <hicham> didrocks: but still, no unity
[16:01] <didrocks> can you pastebin the output? what's the profile chosen?
[16:02] <hicham> didrocks: didrocks : ~/.config/compiz-1/compizconfig/unity.ini is empty
[16:02] <didrocks> and it doesn't take /etc/compizconfig/unity.ini then?
[16:02] <hicham> didrocks: chosen profile is unity
[16:03] <didrocks> can you pastebin please?
[16:03] <hicham> didrocks: no
[16:03] <hicham> didrocks: pastebin /etc/compizconfig/unity.ini ?
[16:03] <didrocks> that and the output of your compiz --replace ccp
[16:04] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/mVBC
[16:09] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/H59E
[16:09] <will_> hey guys. does anyone think that the unity launcher/dock disobeys fitt's law? if you put your mouse pointer to the very left of the screen, it will no longer be hovering over any of the buttons
[16:10] <didrocks> hicham: in ccsm, the "unity" profile have unityshell plugin enabled, isn't it?
[16:10] <will_> is there a good reason for this or just an oversight?
[16:11] <didrocks> will_: it does there
[16:11] <hicham> didrocks: "unity" profile isn't listed in ccsm
[16:11] <hicham> didrocks: only "Default" profile
[16:11] <will_> didrocks: it does what? disobey's fitt's law? selects the icon properly (as it should?)?
[16:11] <didrocks> hicham: hum, there is clearly a compiz detection issue then. you should check on #compiz-dev I would say
[16:11] <didrocks> will_: it select the launcher icons next to it
[16:12] <didrocks> hicham: seems you have a compiz profile detection issue, not realy sure why, it works here even if I set the ini backend
[16:12] <hicham> didrocks: maybe you carry a patch to compizconfig
[16:12] <didrocks> hicham: no we don't
[16:12] <will_> didrocks: really? i'm not getting the same behaviour. to clarify when my mouse is over the little white triangles that mean the application is opened - it doesn't select the icon
[16:13] <didrocks> will_: define "select", you don't have the tooltip appearing, right?
[16:13] <will_> didrock: that's right, no tooltip. clicking does nothing either
[16:13] <didrocks> will_: there is a known issue before the first time the launcher is hidden
[16:13] <will_> (it doesn't launch the application if application is not already launched or show the windows in scale mode if applicable)
[16:14] <didrocks> will_: so, if you make the launcher disappearing at least once
[16:14] <didrocks> then let it reapparing
[16:14] <will_> didrocks: i don't ever hide the launcher, which would probably explain it. :) hopefully that's a bug being worked on then?
[16:14] <didrocks> will_: right, it's on my list
[16:14] <didrocks> so yeah, you should be affected by that then :)
[16:14] <will_> excellent, thanks for the explanation :) i'd much rather it was a bug being worked on than an actual feature oversight
[16:15] <will_> didrocks: are you a unity developer, then? or you just keep track of bugs being reported/worked on?
[16:15] <didrocks> will_: yeah, I had no time to debug it yet, it's kind of weird, but definitively reproduceable
[16:15] <didrocks> will_: I'm integrating unity in ubuntu and part time developping it as well
[16:16] <will_> didrocks: i'm a programmer and i've wanted to get into developing code for linux. there's some compiz plugins i want to work on but whilst i can find documentation for building compiz, i couldn't find any info on building compiz specifically for ubuntu
[16:16] <will_> with the unity plugin and so on
[16:17] <will_> is there any documentation?
[16:18] <didrocks> will_: sure, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/InstallationGuideFromSource
[16:18] <didrocks> but for compiz, I would say, start from our package
[16:18] <didrocks> apt-get source compiz
[16:18] <didrocks> and then debuild
[16:18] <will_> didrocks: ah excellent, thanks :)
[16:18] <didrocks> yw :)
[16:18] <Boardinary_> are there plans to combine scale and expo?
[16:19] <hicham> didrocks: ok thanks, I will work on that
[16:19] <hicham> didrocks: I have another question though :)
[16:20] <will_> didrocks: just to clarify, i'm wanting to look into modifying scale to better show window title names. when you've got about 5 or 6 firefox windows in scale on text heavy websites, they're hard to tell apart. maybe i'm being over ambitious, but that's my itch that i want to scratch
[16:20] <didrocks> will_: maybe it's better to see that with compiz upstream on #compiz-dev I would say :)
[16:20] <will_> didrocks: thanks for the heads up - i'll ask around :)
[16:21] <hicham> didrocks: since I can't put the menus on the panel, I had to prevent the window title from fading
[16:21] <hicham> didrocks: so I set "_is_inside = false" in src/PanelMenuView.cpp
[16:21] <hicham> didrocks: is there any better solution ?
[16:21] <didrocks> will_: yw :)
[16:22] <didrocks> hicham: no, I think that's the best you can provide to workaround that, indeed, another solution would be to detect that automatically if an application have a menu exported or not. That better patch can be included upstream I guess
[16:23] <hicham> didrocks: I think that is all
[16:23] <hicham> didrocks: btw, the stack works fine with gtk3
[16:24] <didrocks> hicham: nice to hear! :-)
[16:24] <hicham> didrocks: oh, and would you accept a patch to add a switch to enable/disable utouch stuff ?
[16:24] <didrocks> you mean in cmake?
[16:25] <didrocks> sure, should be on (or autodetected) by default though
[16:25] <hicham> didrocks: yes, i set it to be on by default
[16:26] <didrocks> hicham: so sure, propose a branch for it
[16:27] <hicham> didrocks: http://fpaste.org/qwgL
[16:29] <didrocks> hicham: I don't really have the time to test it right now, but looks good. What would be awesome is that you open a bug with it and attach the patch (or even better, propose a branch for merging so that we don't loose it)
[16:46] <will_> i'm trying to debuild that compiz source i pulled down, but it says it depends on kdebase-workspace-dev
[16:47] <will_> isn't that a bit odd?
[19:06] <Milos_SD> Hi
[19:07] <Milos_SD> Is there a way to add "Alpha Blur" to Unity Launcher?
[19:08] <Milos_SD> or to increase it's opacity
[19:08] <Milos_SD> decrease it's transparency*
[20:08] <tedg> kenvandine, How do you want to package this?  https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/indicator-session/classic-session/+merge/60746
[20:08] <tedg> kenvandine, I was thinking another package like "indicator-session-extra-guests"
[20:08] <tedg> kenvandine, Really, I'm hoping people will contribute more of them, but I wanted to put together a demo.
[20:29] <hicham> tedg: any work towards porting unity stack to gtk3 ?
[20:32] <tedg> hicham, There's been work on bits an pieces, but it's planned.  Do you have something specific you're looking for?
[20:32] <kenvandine> tedg, humm
[20:32] <hicham> tedg: just libunity-misc/unity
[20:33] <hicham> tedg: I tried to build them, but at the end I the notification area is dark
[20:33] <hicham> tedg: though clickable with popup menus showing
[20:33] <tedg> hicham, Ah, interesting.
[20:33] <tedg> hicham, You should ping njpatel when he's here.
[20:35] <hicham> tedg: thanks
[20:36] <hicham> I hope the unity team will have some time to look at bugs with patches pending
[20:36] <tedg> hicham, Sure, it's best to put patches as merge requests though.  They're easier to track that way.
[20:36] <tedg> hicham, Do you know how to do that?
[20:36] <hicham> tedg: no, I am "/dev/null" in bzr :(
[20:37] <tedg> hicham, Basically you need to just "bzr branch lp:unity ; cd unity ; <edit> ; bzr commit ; bzr push lp:~username/unity/mybranch"
[20:37] <tedg> hicham, Then you can go to that branch's page in LP and propose it for merging.
[20:41] <hicham> tedg: thanks a lot
[23:27] <hiatus> is there anyway to add a menu to unity?
[23:35] <hiatus> fuck it, I'm going back to gnome. I am not search for every application. Do you know how often I use my computer drunk?
[23:37] <hiatus> you all suck. I'm not looking at walls of apps, I'm not searching. I don't like the menu bar disappearing. I don't like these windows 7 pinned tabs. Ubuntu was about being for human beings and now you have universal search which was thrown out as a bad idea from the 80's
[23:37] <hiatus> you'll suck