[00:04] <Riddell> weird e-mail du jour http://paste.kde.org/71977/
[00:11] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[00:18] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: You know it's funny... Because while there are a few trials with Linux I have had a helluva time with windows on my mothers laptop. There was no drivers dick for it and it took me close to 30 hours to download and install the drivers *just* to get it to work. So, I guess it's a matter of perspective.
[00:18] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: RE to that intereting email
[00:20] <Riddell> DarkwingDuck: Juan.A.Soler @team.telstra.com  if you want to send the guy a reply :)
[00:21] <DarkwingDuck> LOL
[00:21] <DarkwingDuck> I just might.
[00:21] <DarkwingDuck> Because side by side with each installer disk Linux is MUCH more out of the box user friendly
[02:27] <ScottK> apachelogger: ?
[02:52] <c2tarun> I got this error while running cmake. http://paste.kde.org/72019/ can anyone please tell me name of the packages required?
[03:21] <JontheEchidna> that's not a failure
[03:21] <JontheEchidna> if it's failing, the relevant info is elsewhere
[03:33] <DarkwingDuck> Hey guys
[04:10] <ScottK> apachelogger: Reading the packagers list you should be explaining to the kdegames people about phonon.
[04:36] <DarkwingDuck> srr
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck> j
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck>                                                                                                                                                     
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck> jty
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck>  
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> Wow, kids again.
[05:29] <DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: Is there a GUI frontend for meinproc4?
[05:36] <tazz> DarkwingDuck: why would you need that?
[05:37] <DarkwingDuck> tazz: for another project where the people involved are not CLI savvy at all.
[05:38] <tazz> DarkwingDuck: iirc all i use meinproc4 is like "meinproc4 index.docbook"
[05:38] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah, I was looking at that.
[05:38] <tazz> i dont remember ever using meinproc for anything else.
[05:38] <DarkwingDuck> Shouldn't be hard to write a Qt or Python interface for it.
[05:39] <tazz> DarkwingDuck: yes it should not be hard. 
[05:39] <DarkwingDuck> Actually, it would make a good first project for me. :)
[05:39] <tazz> :)
[05:40] <tazz> i think thats why no one has created a gui for it. Maybe because its not needed.
[05:40] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah, i know it's not needed for mainstream but, this project... yeah...
[05:42] <DarkwingDuck> I might take it a couple steps further.
[05:42] <DarkwingDuck> I might incorperate HTML2DocBook with it too
[06:17] <eMyller> yofel_: ping
[06:19] <eMyller> well, i've got some info about the kded-dbus-networking craziness
[06:20] <eMyller> a workaround, actually. maybe this could be helpful for finding a solution, too.
[06:20]  * eMyller finally has his natty usable
[06:20] <eMyller> sad it has to be tricky.
[10:19] <steveire> ScottK: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.core/70072
[10:21] <dpm> hi agateau, Riddell, is any of you guys going to the Qt Contributors Summit (http://is.gd/jwq3Pn)?
[10:21] <Riddell> not me
[10:22] <agateau> dpm: I asked to go, haven't received Nokia answer yet
[10:22] <dpm> agateau, ok, Adam Weinrich, the Nokia guy at UDS was asking who was coming, so I'll let him know you've applied
[10:23] <dpm> let me ask Kaleo too
[10:23] <agateau> dpm: ok, thanks
[10:23] <dpm> no worries :)
[10:37] <padams> moin moin
[10:39] <padams> apachelogger: ping
[10:58] <didrocks> dpm: I'll maybe come as well
[10:59] <dpm> hey didrocks, I didn't even know you were on this channel :) Ok, let me send you an e-mail as well
[11:02] <dpm> thanks for the heads up!
[11:02] <didrocks> dpm: thanks for managing this :)
[11:02] <dpm> no worries :)
[11:03] <dpm> is anyone else from the Kubuntu/Qt community attending the Summit?
[11:07] <jussi> which summit ?
[11:07] <jussi> dpm: ^^
[11:08] <dpm> jussi, [11:21] <dpm> hi agateau, Riddell, is any of you guys going to the Qt Contributors Summit (http://is.gd/jwq3Pn)?
[11:08] <jussi> dpm: Im not, but I do know the Qt guy who was at UDS, ddenis, is going. 
[11:08] <dpm> ok
[11:14] <apachelogger> DarkwingDuck: khc
[11:14] <apachelogger> padams: pong
[11:15] <apachelogger> ScottK: why is that?
[11:16] <padams> apachelogger: hey, got the debugging output from kded4 when disconnecting from the VPn causes 100% cpu use... what do you want me to do with it?
[11:16] <apachelogger> ScottK: and my blueprints complaint was bogus ... it should have been blueprints on kubuntu-devel are the suck
[11:16] <apachelogger> (i.e. blueprints for which kubuntu members is assignee or something)
[11:16] <apachelogger> padams: paste or send it to apachelogger@ubuntu.com
[11:18] <padams> alrighty - will mail it
[11:21] <padams> apachelogger: ok - coming at you. this log starts with me invoking kded4 from the cli and ends with it eating cpu when i disconnected from the VPN
[11:22] <apachelogger> not much usefulness
[11:22] <padams> that's what i figured
[11:22] <apachelogger> perhaps we'll need callgrind or cachegrind to help
[11:23]  * apachelogger is pretty sure applying either on kded4 will not work by default thanks to runtime library loading etc.
[11:24] <didrocks> I'm quite lost in process as there is not anymore ninja team. What's the workflow/process to update something in the stack nowdays? (for instance, let's see I want to give an itch at qtcreator)
[11:25] <apachelogger> sure there are ninjas
[11:25] <didrocks> oh, I was thinking it was not the case anymore, maybe reading blog post too late isn't a good idea :)
[11:26] <didrocks> but for instance, for qt/qtcreator, does that follow the same policy (as it doesn't follow the same schedule than kde)
[11:26] <apachelogger> didrocks: there is no policy behind ninjas, except that coherent products are released as such to the archive :P
[11:27] <apachelogger> didrocks: anyhow, just check if the package has a packaging branch for kubuntu-packagers, use that if there is one
[11:27] <didrocks> apachelogger: is there a wiki page to declare I'm working on <component> ?
[11:27] <didrocks> ok, nice, let me see :)
[11:27] <apachelogger> otherwise completely normal
[11:27] <didrocks> apachelogger: thanks, let me have a look
[11:27] <apachelogger> didrocks: components that tend to have plenty of people work on them have packaging branches for exactly that reason :)
[11:28]  * apachelogger thinks creator doesn't have one
[11:28] <apachelogger> so.... we have todo for accessibility, community, council, defaults, documentation, filesharing 
[11:28] <apachelogger> meh, installer next :S
[11:29] <didrocks> apachelogger: yeah, as we do for ubuntu-desktop :)
[11:29] <didrocks> apachelogger: so, confirmed, nothing for creator, let me do a traditional update then
[11:31] <apachelogger> maco, afiestas: would one of you maybe like to write a todo for/from the kubuntu installer session?
[11:46] <apachelogger> didrocks: are you fixing jono's designer-no-starting bug? ^^
[11:46] <didrocks> apachelogger: I didn't see that bug, can you pastebin the discussion?
[11:47] <apachelogger> oh, he posted it somewhere on identi.ca
[11:47] <didrocks> (is it the grey "design" icon?)
[11:47] <didrocks> let me look, I'm not a twitter/identica addict :)
[11:47] <apachelogger> I believe it just didn't want to start
[11:48] <apachelogger> didrocks: http://identi.ca/notice/73580875
[11:48]  * apachelogger just came to experience that jono is quite the replymaster on identi.ca ^^
[11:49] <didrocks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtcreator/+bug/752713
[11:49] <didrocks> just found it :)
[11:49] <didrocks> apachelogger: right, I found it on page 3… only in one day :)
[11:50] <didrocks> let me dive into the issue, i was thinking it was disable for 2.1 and enabled in 2.2
[11:50]  * apachelogger finishes compiling the mobile todo from uds \\o/
[11:50] <apachelogger> didrocks: depends on the kind of designer
[11:50] <apachelogger> the qml designer was disabled for 2.1 most definitely
[11:51] <didrocks> I think Jono is speaking about the qml one
[11:52] <didrocks> if you are in a qml project, I think that qml designer should be trigger, if you are in a qt project, qt designer should be, isn't it?
[11:52] <apachelogger> no
[11:52] <apachelogger> depends on the file that current has focus
[11:53] <apachelogger> *currently
[11:53] <apachelogger> is it a qt ui file then qt designer kicks in, is it qml you get the qml code and the option to switch into the designer
[11:53] <didrocks> ok, so s/project/file
[11:53] <apachelogger> aye
[11:53] <apachelogger> one can have projects with both :P
[11:53] <didrocks> ok, I'll have a look :)
[11:58] <apachelogger> didrocks: could you work more often on qt/kde stuff, I fear I might get lonely with Riddell around in the mornings ^^
[11:59] <apachelogger> oh, groovy, lightdm session has action items \o/
[12:01] <didrocks> apachelogger: right, that's why I stepped up on this :)
[12:01] <didrocks> apachelogger: I'll try Qt first, one step after another ;)
[12:01] <didrocks> hence my question about policy/process if any :p
[12:02] <apachelogger> awesome :D
[12:05] <didrocks> apachelogger: btw, I remember some years ago about awesome graphics of packages and dependencies for Qt/KDE in the wiki, are they still around?
[12:05] <apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Ninjas/
[12:05] <apachelogger> eh
[12:05] <apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Ninjas/DependencyGraph
[12:06] <didrocks> excellent thanks!
[12:06] <apachelogger> then again, that ninjas page holds all the stuff worth documenting (like kde l10n building and whatnot)
[12:06] <didrocks> nothing similar for Qt?
[12:06] <didrocks> yeah, I'll give them a look again :)
[12:06] <apachelogger> didrocks: no, but feel free to create one ;)
[12:07]  * apachelogger imagines getting the scope right for Qt might be a problem...
[12:07] <apachelogger> then again with Qt 5's modularization we'll need one for sure
[12:07] <didrocks> yeah, maybe best to wait for the Qt5 reorganization, seems it's getting slowly in shape :)
[12:09] <apachelogger> <----------------------------------------- Blame Harald for leaking KDnity screenshots -- blame Jussi for making them.
[12:10] <apachelogger> Quintasan_: might I just say.... jussi leaked them before me!
[12:10] <apachelogger> only he did it to the wrong target audience (twitter)
[12:12] <jussi> BWAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
[12:14] <apachelogger> who want's to write a todo for ballmer's peak?
[12:14] <apachelogger> IMHO we should have some action items to prepare for next UDS
[12:15] <apachelogger> actually valuable research output this time around seems rather low
[12:15] <apachelogger> Martyn's idea of asking random not-so-trivial programming questions seemed jolly useful
[12:16] <jussi> apachelogger: would it not be more awesome to ask people to write something useful and then we can see which one codes the most awesome stuff? :D
[12:17] <apachelogger> awesome != good programming
[12:17] <apachelogger> e.g. plasma :P
[12:17] <apachelogger> just kidding
[12:18] <apachelogger> jussi: the thing is... if you have short but tricky programming questions the time it takes you to think up a sane solution is a good indication about proximity to ballmer's peak
[12:19] <jussi> fair point
[12:20] <apachelogger> I think what we should at least find out next time is: does ballmer's peak actually relate to the amount of alcohol in the blood, or rather the amount in relation with something else
[12:20] <apachelogger> jussi: btw, do you happen to know what the tags at the beginning of the etherpad pages are for?
[12:21] <jussi> apachelogger: so you can see all of the etherpads by group. dont ask me how though
[12:22] <apachelogger> ^^
[12:23] <apachelogger> IMHO someone shoudl hack into etherpad and make it more integrated
[12:26] <jussi> apachelogger: they hack lots already... :P 
[12:26] <apachelogger> jussi: where does one report bugs? ^^
[12:28] <apachelogger> wtf
[12:28] <apachelogger> we still have todos postponed from karmic :O
[12:28] <apachelogger> and one of them is even sorta related to me
[12:28] <apachelogger> SCARY!
[12:29] <jussi> apachelogger: get on it!!!! :D
[12:29] <jussi> btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Xwta_XIJo&feature=player_embedded
[12:29] <jussi> AWESOME!
[12:30] <apachelogger> there was some tricky stuff involved
[12:30] <apachelogger> can't remember what exactly was stopping the show
[12:30] <apachelogger> something with the existing implementation not being cross-desktopy or something
[12:30] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[12:31]  * apachelogger thinks zenity and kdialog should merge into one thing with multiple faces
[12:33] <apachelogger> jussi: do you know whether sunday is claimable btw?
[12:33] <jussi> apachelogger: not sure - they said 3 days were claimable - 2 for us as Riddell paid that one day. 
[12:33] <apachelogger> maybe tuesday
[12:34]  * apachelogger writes mail to marianna
[12:43] <apachelogger> jussi: do we have a python minion at hand?
[12:44] <jussi> apachelogger: dont think so
[12:44] <apachelogger> meh
[12:44] <apachelogger> rgreening: maybe you have time? :)
[12:45] <apachelogger> there were times when you just needed to say python in here and people were jumping at you
[12:47] <jussi> apachelogger: you are a attitude influencer, and your hate of python has driven many of them away. 
[12:48] <apachelogger> I am not saying it is a bad thing :P
[12:48] <apachelogger> just pointing it out
[12:48] <apachelogger> oh amichair!
[12:48] <apachelogger> amichair: pling pling
[12:49] <apachelogger> amichair: mvo would like ot have https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/software-properties/dbusworker for oneiric, but there are still plenty of todos ... basically it is just creating a dbus interface for polkit usage so that software-properties does not need to be run as root
[12:51] <QuintasanDroid> shadeslayer: ping
[12:51] <apachelogger> QuintasanDroid: do you have a pyth0rn minion possibly?
[12:52] <QuintasanDroid> hmmm, I'll ask Matheww later
[12:52] <QuintasanDroid> he expressed intrest in fixing printer magic
[12:53] <QuintasanDroid> shadeslayer: what was the name of the tablet for 100€€€€€€€€€€
[12:53] <Tm_T> agateau: have I told already how much I love you?
[12:53] <QuintasanDroid> with monochromatic display
[12:53] <agateau> Tm_T: I don't think so :)
[12:53] <Tm_T> agateau: plasma-widget-menubar rocks, I
[12:54] <Tm_T> I've been missing that kind of functionality for some time now
[12:55] <apachelogger> !info kde-config-grub2
[12:55] <apachelogger> nice
[12:55] <QuintasanDroid> hmm
[12:56] <QuintasanDroid> we dont want it by defauly, do we?
[13:04] <dpm> hey Kubuntu people, we're testing language packs, and it seems most of the teams are testing the Ubuntu but not the Kubuntu ones. Would anyone be up for testing Kubuntu translations and leave feedback as per the instructions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA ?
[13:05] <apachelogger> QuintasanDroid ^
[13:05] <apachelogger> neversfelde ^
[13:46] <maco> apachelogger: yeah i told scott i'd do it. just havent yet
[13:47] <apachelogger> ok
[14:01] <didrocks> apachelogger: FYI, fabo has an updated qtcreator package, I'll just resync it tomorrow
[14:02] <apachelogger> awesome
[14:05] <keffie_jayx> hello all, I checked some of the sessions for UDS and I must say, you guys rock :)
[14:06] <keffie_jayx> I wanna help out some more with the documentation on the wiki this cycle and probable help out with testing and packaging a bit
[14:06] <jjesse> keffie_jayx you need to talk to DarkwingDuck as he heads up the documentation
[14:08] <keffie_jayx> jjesse: well I have checked out the sessions results and actions, I am unsure if there is a particular mailing list though
[14:08]  * keffie_jayx checks
[14:08] <apachelogger> rbelem, jussi, Quintasan_, ScottK, afiestas: I just asked marianna about per diem ... if you had lunch and/or dinner on sunday you are entitled to claim th per diem for both ... if you did *not* attend the linaro showcase you can claim tuesday dinner ... those who did not join riddell on wednesday for dinner are entitled to claim per diem for that ... everyone is entiteled to claim dinner per diem for thursday (unless someone from 
[14:08] <apachelogger> canonical was buyin and stuff)
[14:09] <jussi> apachelogger: thanks
[14:09] <ScottK> apachelogger: Thanks.
[14:09] <afiestas> well, I will donate my launch to canonical xD
[14:10]  * afiestas is lazy even to do that :p
[14:11]  * rbelem hugs apachelogger 
[14:11] <rbelem> :-)
[14:22] <apachelogger> ScottK: do you have time to prescreen a UDS blog post?
[14:23] <ScottK> apachelogger: No.  I'm actually in a $WORK meeting pretending to pay attention at the moment and I can only take the pretending so far.
[14:23] <apachelogger> ^^
[14:23] <apachelogger> kk
[14:23] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna:  I just asked marianna about per diem ... if you had lunch and/or dinner on sunday you are entitled to claim th per diem for both ... if you did *not* attend the linaro showcase you can claim tuesday dinner ... those who did not join riddell on wednesday for dinner are entitled to claim per diem for that ... everyone is entiteled to claim dinner per diem for thursday (unless someone from canonical was buyin and stuff)
[14:23] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: also, do you have time to prescreen a blog post?
[14:26] <amichair> apachelogger: plong
[14:31] <shadeslayer> Quintasan_: pong
[14:31] <shadeslayer> Quintasan_: you mean 100 USD?
[14:32] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: Android sucks monkey balls
[14:32]  * afiestas never finds how to sign up on kubuntu wiki
[14:33] <shadeslayer> Quintasan_: lol ... i forgot the name
[14:33] <afiestas> aaaaaaaaaaah this little rectangle in the top-left corner
[14:33] <afiestas> now I see :D
[14:34] <apachelogger> #usabilityfail
[14:34] <apachelogger> amichair: whatever I wrote before
[14:35] <QuintasanDroid> dpm: cool, once I get home I can coduct some testing
[14:35] <afiestas> oneiric is going to package 4.7, right?
[14:36] <QuintasanDroid> apachelogger: when approx. todo will be ready?
[14:36] <apachelogger> read yer mail!!!!
[14:36] <dpm> Quintasan, excellent. btw, did everything work with your re-addition to the Polish translation team?
[14:36] <apachelogger> who wants to be nice enough to prescreen a blog post???? :P
[14:36] <apachelogger> afiestas: yes
[14:36] <QuintasanDroid> afiestas: yes, we will merge with Debian and then base 4.7 packaging on that
[14:36] <apachelogger> afiestas: .2 to be precise
[14:37] <QuintasanDroid> dpm: I was added back, I shall blame Launchpad for emails not apparently reaching Tomasz
[14:37] <dpm> Quintasan, why Launchpad? Did you not e-mail him yourself?
[14:37] <apachelogger> lunchpad - mails omnomnom
[14:37] <QuintasanDroid> dpm: thanks, I noted down his email so in case something like that happens again I will email him directly
[14:37] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: Noteslate
[14:37] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: and its 100 USD
[14:38] <QuintasanDroid> shadeslayer: already found it, I know it is USD but my droid is retarded and by longpress on € it thinks I want tons of € signs
[14:38] <shadeslayer> hehe
[14:39] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: i have a very minimal android build and even then it doesn't work like its supposed to
[14:39] <QuintasanDroid> lol
[14:39] <QuintasanDroid> android magic
[14:39] <QuintasanDroid> its good but some nitpicks make it awful to use sometimes
[14:40] <apachelogger> me kernel is not bootin;
[14:40] <QuintasanDroid> fix it
[14:40] <QuintasanDroid> then
[14:40] <apachelogger> Nightrose: ping
[14:40] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: i boot it and i keep seeing the bootsplash ....
[14:40] <Nightrose> apachelogger: pong
[14:41] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: sure
[14:41] <QuintasanDroid> dpm: well, I used Launchpad to email him thinking that mail have to reach him when he is managing our team
[14:41] <apachelogger> Nightrose: do you have time to presecreen a blog post?
[14:41] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: and then i have to turn off the screen and turn it on again ... horrible ...
[14:41] <QuintasanDroid> dpm: But it is Lunchpad as apachelogger pointed out - mails omnomnom
[14:41] <Nightrose> apachelogger: i have a telco in a few mins
[14:41] <QuintasanDroid> shadeslayer: Thats android for you
[14:41] <apachelogger> Nightrose: ok
[14:42] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: indeed ...
[14:42] <QuintasanDroid> lets make sure that Kubuntu Active is better
[14:42] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: a mail was deliviered to your online inbox
[14:42] <JontheEchidna> k
[14:42] <dpm> QuintasanDroid, it should have reached him, I don't know what went on there. But in any case, I always e-mail people directly, since I want to have record in my sent folder on when I e-mailed someone
[14:42]  * apachelogger notes that the name kubuntu active is not yet final
[14:42] <apachelogger> not even close
[14:42] <QuintasanDroid> apachelogger: blog post prescreening?
[14:42] <apachelogger> it actually has a todo item to figure out the name
[14:42] <QuintasanDroid> is it long?
[14:42] <shadeslayer> QuintasanDroid: yeah ...  ARM + Plasma Active + Kubuntu is going to be my focus next cycle hopefully
[14:42] <apachelogger> 711 words
[14:42] <ScottK> apachelogger: We need to schedule a KC meeting to review/approve the specs.  Presumably 5/30 or later.
[14:43] <QuintasanDroid> Cool
[14:43]  * QuintasanDroid is all for Kubuntu Active
[14:43] <QuintasanDroid> sounds more sophisticated than Kubuntu Mobile
[14:43] <shadeslayer> yeah
[14:43] <apachelogger> ScottK: my council membership expires 2011-05-31 :P
[14:43] <QuintasanDroid> lol
[14:43] <shadeslayer> plasma active looks better too :P
[14:44] <ScottK> Right.
[14:44] <QuintasanDroid> apachelogger: you actually get to have a voice in that :P
[14:44] <apachelogger> ScottK: why not before end of may?
[14:44]  * QuintasanDroid just figured out he only has two tests to write
[14:45] <ScottK> I thought it would make sense for the new council to approve stuff, but I'm not wedded to it.
[14:45] <QuintasanDroid> +1 for new council making decisions
[14:45] <apachelogger> ScottK: well, there are arguments for old council and for new council I suppose
[14:46] <apachelogger> + 1/2 of the council doesnt change anyway ^^
[14:46] <QuintasanDroid> brb
[14:46] <ScottK> $SOMEONE should schedule something.
[14:46] <apachelogger> ScottK: let us let the $SOMEONE decide ;)
[14:48] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: I submitted feedback through that feedback submittal thing
[14:50] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: read is good enough, coherent and whatnot?
[14:50] <apachelogger> interesting etc.
[14:50] <apachelogger> magic 
[14:50] <apachelogger> butterflies
[15:11] <ScottK> apachelogger: Looks like Debian is about to upload 4.6.3 to Unstable.
[15:16] <Quintasan_> \o/
[15:16] <Quintasan_> As I expected
[15:18] <Quintasan> apachelogger: oh cool stuff about Sunday lunch
[15:24] <afiestas> where I can find the notes of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-lightdm ?
[15:26] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: yus
[15:26] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: Do you remember how much approx was it for KFC's bucket?
[15:27] <apachelogger> afiestas: eh
[15:27] <apachelogger> afiestas: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/meeting/desktop-o-lightdm/
[15:28] <apachelogger> also... bzr branch lp:kubuntu-web-shortcuts && cd kubuntu-web-shortcuts && sudo make install && kbuildsycoca4
[15:28] <apachelogger> then you can use udesnotes:desktop-o-lightdm in krunner
[15:29] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: 2100?
[15:29] <JontheEchidna> it was a lot of chicken
[15:29] <JontheEchidna> you claim the whole per diem though, no matter what you spent
[15:30] <Quintasan> 2500?
[15:30] <JontheEchidna> yeah, that's the whole per diemd
[15:30] <JontheEchidna> -d
[15:30] <Quintasan> cool
[15:33]  * Quintasan sends fixed Expenses Form
[15:35] <apachelogger> !info libnl-dev
[15:35]  * apachelogger waves fist
[15:35] <apachelogger> !info libnl1
[15:35] <apachelogger> hm
[15:35] <Quintasan> apachelogger: Can I add Project Neon stuff to our main Todo list?
[15:35]  * Quintasan is too lazy to maintain two lists
[15:35] <apachelogger> padams, ScottK: I believe the kded4 load comes from a bug in libnl
[15:36] <ScottK> Oohh.  Nice.
[15:37] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/rP60S.png
[15:37] <apachelogger> 208,820,950 function calls seem way too many
[15:37] <apachelogger> especially considering that qstrcmp only got 1,000,000
[15:38] <padams> yes, that does seem somewhat excessive :)
[15:39] <ScottK> Looks like upstream has no bug tracker.
[15:39] <ScottK> Likely that means the software is perfect.
[15:40] <padams> there are only 2 bugs in launchpad
[15:41] <padams> neither of which "feel" like they are related
[15:41] <Quintasan> 208,820,950
[15:42] <Quintasan> WTF
[15:42] <Quintasan> IT'S A FEATURE
[15:43]  * Quintasan goes to mow the lawn
[15:44]  * padams is not entirely sure what Quintasan is trying to say
[15:44] <Quintasan> padams: 208,820,950 calls to libnl
[15:44] <Quintasan> it's like
[15:44] <Quintasan> WOAH, why so many?
[15:45] <padams> ah
[15:50] <apachelogger> the issue must be in update-connectivity of ntrack-libnl1.so
[15:51] <apachelogger> it is responsible for all calls to the function it would appear
[15:52] <apachelogger> ScottK:  * Copyright (C) 2009,2010  Alexander Sack <asac@jwsdot.com>
[15:52] <apachelogger> I think we might be able to hunt down that developer :P
[15:54] <ScottK> Nice.
[15:55] <apachelogger> it might be a broken iter actually
[15:56] <apachelogger> update_connectivity while loops over an iter 2 times, within those loops the ifindex function gets called
[15:56] <steveire> ScottK: I think the issue with SDO will be fixed by strueg.
[15:57] <ScottK> steveire: I saw the discussion.  Thanks for taking that one.
[15:57] <ScottK> one/on
[15:58] <Quintasan> urgh
[15:58] <Quintasan> looks like anything will have to wait
[15:58] <steveire> Sure. strueg needed a bit of a kick anyway. It's not the first time things break like that.
[16:26] <apachelogger> ScottK, padams: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ntrack/+bug/755608
[16:26]  * apachelogger should have looke dfor a bug before firing up gdb ^^
[16:27] <apachelogger> http://paste.ubuntu.com/609049/
[16:27] <ScottK> Very good.
[16:27] <apachelogger> basically that loop would never ever terminate
[16:27] <apachelogger> ScottK: now you just need to poke asac to SRU this asap :P
[16:27] <ScottK> apachelogger: For asac values of 'P' tend to be very large.
[16:28] <apachelogger> s/asap/right now :P
[16:29] <padams> it would make at least one kubuntu user just that little bit happier :D
[16:29] <ScottK> Could someone who is having this problem please file (or point me to) a bug against Ubuntu libnl with a test case for how to reproduce this?
[16:29] <ScottK> Looking into it, but need the bug.
[16:30] <apachelogger> ScottK: the bug is in ntrack, not libnl
[16:30] <ScottK> Right.
[16:30] <ScottK> Bug against that.
[16:31] <apachelogger> ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ntrack/+bug/755608
[16:31] <ScottK> Thanks.
[16:37] <apachelogger> Added steps to reproduce as comment + a callgrind log with 48 million calls to proof the awfulness ;)
[16:40] <ScottK> ;-)
[16:45] <ScottK> padams: I just uploaded a test package to my PPA.  Once it's built, you can test and verify this fixes it.  If it does, I'll upload it to the archive.
[16:46] <padams> alrighty - let me know when it is ready and i will go right ahead
[16:55] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: maybe I should add pictures to the blog post?
[16:55] <apachelogger> ScottK: do you have time to read yet? :P
[16:55] <ScottK> apachelogger: No.  Meeting is all day.
[16:56] <apachelogger> meetings--
[16:56]  * apachelogger starts writing a blog post about daily wrap up meetings at uds
[17:06] <ScottK> padams: https://launchpad.net/~kitterman/+archive/ppa <-- It's there.  There is also a test Qt package in there, so just take the nettrack update.
[17:09] <padams> alrighty - thanks
[17:11] <apachelogger> who is around and has time to read a blog post before I hit the publish button?
[17:17]  * apachelogger grumps and publishes
[17:17]  * ScottK prepares to flame.
[17:18] <apachelogger> http://apachelog.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/kubuntu-11-10-sneak-peak/
[17:22] <debfx> apachelogger: what are those low fat kde settings?
[17:22] <apachelogger> debfx: down with nepomuk, down with akonadi, down with kded modules for no good reason, down with pointless autostart apps
[17:23] <padams> ScottK: works perfectly! :D
[17:23] <ScottK> padams: Please mark that in the bug.  I'll upload.
[17:23] <padams> alrighty
[17:24] <debfx> apachelogger: for the mobile edition?
[17:24] <bambee> evening
[17:24] <apachelogger> debfx: every edition
[17:24] <apachelogger> the idea is to have an additional package which will allow you to go low fat if you want to
[17:24] <apachelogger> embedded setups of course have most the junk by default
[17:26] <ScottK> padams: Uploaded.
[17:27] <padams> cool
[17:27] <debfx> aha, kubuntu-default-settings-low-fat ^^
[17:28] <jussi> kubuntu-default-settings-apachloggers-diet :P
[17:28] <bambee> or kubuntu-default-settings-light ^^
[17:30] <apachelogger> nah, just call it kubuntu-low-fat and have the settings in there
[17:30]  * jussi prods apachelogger's pm
[17:47]  * micahg likes the idea of slimming down the desktop as an option
[17:48] <apachelogger> also terribly easy to do because it is essentially what we do for mobile anyway
[17:49] <apachelogger> hrw mentioned that he felt the desktop to become fatter all the time and I was thinking, if we can make the system run on a crappy n900 we should be able to make it run decently on a p3 with 512mb or maybe even less ^^
[17:49] <bambee> is there an api in kdelibs to compute changes between two files ? (like diff) :P
[17:50] <apachelogger> bambee: that question is rather fuzzy
[17:50] <apachelogger> though I wouldn't know anything like that off the top of my head
[17:50] <apachelogger> bambee: what are you tryig to do?
[17:54] <bambee> apachelogger: actually all /etc/{passwd,shadow,group} files are entirely read and then entirely wrote. (it's easier like that). I want to compute and apply changes only for shadow, because  read it entirely requires authentication.
[17:54] <bambee> (and it can be avoided)
[17:55] <apachelogger> I think you will have to write your own class for that
[17:55] <bambee> so the idea is to send only changes to the helper, then the helper can read it entirely and compute changes
[17:56] <apachelogger> it depends on how you handle things internally
[17:56] <apachelogger> bambee: so the ui reads shadow once computes changes, sends the changes to helper, helper reads file, inserts changes, writes shadow?
[17:56] <bambee> http://quickgit.kde.org/?p=kcm-userconfig.git&a=blob&h=ad7f0a144d91016b44901720414da0c0c42eb56c&hb=b01cd0d5d73d5c7eb8a82fc7f7f4c843b6fa978b&f=helper/helper.cpp
[17:57] <apachelogger> bambee: btw you might want to talk to jreznik in #fedora-kde, he might be able to help with a cpp port
[17:57] <bambee> apachelogger: actually the gui reads shadow. with my changes it won't read it
[17:58] <bambee> apachelogger: ah ?
[17:59] <apachelogger> bambee: he did seem interested enough ^^
[17:59] <bambee> interesting...
[17:59] <bambee> :)
[17:59] <apachelogger> bambee: so I still do not quite understand what is read where and how it woudl be written
[17:59] <bambee> apachelogger: thanks for your help. at least for your contacts
[18:01] <apachelogger> say you read the shadow, but do not store it internally as text, but instead parse each line into a struct and store that in a qset or qlist or whatever
[18:01] <bambee> apachelogger: actually everything is read from authdb.pwd when the backend is loaded (when the program starts if you prefer), then everything is changed into a global user list and a global group list
[18:01] <bambee> on save : everything is wrote
[18:01] <bambee> the problem: shadow can only be read by root
[18:01] <apachelogger> so how do you solve that right now?
[18:02] <bambee> actually I ask the helper to read shadow
[18:02] <apachelogger> ah, ok, and that is a problem?
[18:02] <bambee> it's ugly because it requires an authentication for that, which could be avoided
[18:02] <apachelogger> not necessarily
[18:02] <apachelogger> you can just have an authless polkit action by default
[18:03] <apachelogger> (for reading!)
[18:03] <bambee> when you start the application the user needs to enter a password... I can move the read when it clicks "apply" (so read shadow before saving it)
[18:03] <bambee> but in this case two passwords will be required o_O
[18:03] <bambee> when he clicks *
[18:03] <apachelogger> no, just make it one polkit action :P
[18:04] <bambee> with a "subaction" , like kcm-kdm does ?
[18:04] <bambee> so org.kde.kcontrol.userconfig.save will read and save files... :P
[18:04] <apachelogger> yeah
[18:04] <apachelogger> I mean, save can do that :P
[18:05] <apachelogger> or you have read but make it authless by default
[18:05] <apachelogger> (admins can then make it require auth if they wish to)
[18:05] <apachelogger> s/auth/password dialog popup stuff
[18:05] <bambee> we're talking about shadow...
[18:05] <bambee> the shadow file
[18:05] <apachelogger> so?
[18:05] <bambee> so no :)
[18:06] <bambee> the shadow file contains all user passwords...
[18:06] <apachelogger> fair enough
[18:06] <bambee> it's only readable by root for a reason, imho
[18:06] <apachelogger> bambee: so how would you compute the changes?
[18:07] <apachelogger> I mean, in order for the frontend to tell the helper what to change it needs to know what is there, no?
[18:07] <bambee> I could compute the changes like kuser. with three lists "add", "del" and "mod"
[18:08] <bambee> mhhh... I am not sure...
[18:08] <apachelogger> ohm
[18:09] <apachelogger> bambee: so you read group and passwd at startup?
[18:09] <bambee> apachelogger: yes
[18:09] <apachelogger> but want to read shadow only at write?
[18:09] <bambee> yes
[18:09] <bambee> it's ugly ? :D
[18:09] <apachelogger> no
[18:09] <apachelogger> but I do not see the problem :P
[18:10] <apachelogger> just have a struct { bool dirty; str passwd };
[18:10] <apachelogger> if dirty is true for a struct user the helper writes the new password
[18:10] <micahg> isn't there a system library that can be used instead?
[18:11] <apachelogger> micahg: for what in particular?
[18:11] <micahg> apachelogger: manipulating the user files
[18:11] <apachelogger> possibly
[18:11] <micahg> s/user/credentials/
[18:11] <kubotu> micahg meant: "apachelogger: manipulating the credentials files"
[18:11] <bambee> micahg: there is. look at putpwent, putgrent, putspent. however you can just add entries :)
[18:12] <bambee> you can also get them
[18:12] <bambee> (fgetspwent for example)
[18:12] <apachelogger> bambee: that would not help the problem at hand though... as what bambee is trying to do is get the necessary data for a change from a user app to a root helper application via polkit
[18:12] <apachelogger> eh
[18:12] <apachelogger> micahg: ^
[18:13] <bambee> exactly the problem is the same
[18:13] <micahg> what's the goal of the app?
[18:13] <apachelogger> micahg: user management
[18:13] <bambee> micahg: users and groups management
[18:15] <micahg> sorry, can't think clearly enough ATM
[18:15]  * apachelogger neither -> high on caffeine :S
[18:16] <apachelogger> bambee: as I see it, you just need some internal structure to track whether the password was changed and an appropriate new password for the helper to write
[18:17]  * apachelogger has 9 blog posts in draft state -.-
[18:17] <jjesse> wow
[18:18] <bambee> mhhh...
[18:18] <jjesse> i don't think i've writtne a post in like 6 months
[18:18]  * apachelogger has drafts older than 6 months! :P
[18:18] <apachelogger> jjesse: mind that the oneiric todo states blogging as todo item :P
[18:18] <apachelogger> multiple times :P
[18:19] <jjesse> nice
[18:23] <apachelogger> bleh
[18:23]  * apachelogger hates it when blog writing on caffeine turns into incoherent yadayada
[18:26] <bambee> apachelogger: wow. A RedHat software engineer. nice :)
[18:26] <bambee> (there are interesting people working on KDE)
[18:35] <yofel> eMyller: very late pong
[18:35] <yofel> let's see if that kded fix helps...
[18:45] <ScottK> apachelogger: What would you think about packaging kmail (4.4) and kmail2 (4.6) for parallel install and only using 4.6 for new installs or if the user explicitly switches?
[18:46] <apachelogger> sounds like a good idea, if 4.6 actually works decent enough to be default for anything
[18:52] <Quintasan> apachelogger: freakin' post something
[18:52] <apachelogger> post
[18:52] <apachelogger> Quintasan: what should I be post0ring?
[18:53] <Quintasan> apachelogger: UDS blog post
[18:53] <apachelogger> Quintasan: I did
[18:54] <Quintasan> oh cool
[18:56]  * Quintasan will write a draft in school tomorrow
[18:57] <bambee> http://bellard.org/jslinux/ wow o_O
[18:57]  * Quintasan never understood idea of using js for something like this
[19:02]  * yofel wonders why we have more blogging 3 times on the community todo list ^^
[19:03] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/BV29p.png :D
[19:03] <davmor2> apachelogger: Do you have proof of that above outrageous claim? ;)
[19:04] <apachelogger> yes
[19:04] <davmor2> haha
[19:04] <apachelogger> not due for publishing in at least 24 hours though :P
[19:04] <davmor2> haha!
[19:08] <bambee> http://bellard.org/jslinux/ <-- this guy has emulated a x86 in javascript ! OMG o_O
[19:08] <eMyller> hi all :)
[19:08] <Quintasan> \o
[19:08] <eMyller> bambee: i had contact with a guy who was trying to do it (i'm not sure if it's the same person)
[19:09] <eMyller> i mentioned it at identica and got bashed :P
[19:09] <bambee> the author is Fabrice Bellard (the qemu leader)
[19:09] <bambee> :)
[19:10] <apachelogger> and apachelogger wonders why the qemu arm emulation is so crappy
[19:13] <eMyller> [14:35:49] <yofel> let's see if that kded fix helps...
[19:13] <eMyller> what fix?
[19:13] <yofel> Scott uploaded a patch for ntrack which should fix my freeze I hope
[19:14] <eMyller> well
[19:14] <eMyller> i came up with a workaround:
[19:14] <yofel> bug 755608
[19:14] <eMyller> whenever it freezes, kill plasma-desktop; kill kded4; start kded4 then plasma-desktop
[19:14] <eMyller> as simple as that
[19:15] <eMyller> restarting plasma is required for avoiding notifications and other update annoyances
[19:16] <eMyller> i tried to mess with modem-manager and dbus first; one of these may have something related, but the workaround doesn't involve them
[19:16] <apachelogger> eMyller: how good is your system?
[19:16] <apachelogger> cpu/memwise
[19:17] <eMyller> apachelogger: maverick was a lot lighter and smoother
[19:17] <apachelogger> that is not why I am asking, you might want to consider turning off desktop effects though 
[19:17] <eMyller> xorg, kwin and kded4 (when it freezes) eat all my cpus
[19:17] <apachelogger> right
[19:17] <apachelogger> step number one deactivate desktop effect
[19:17] <eMyller> mem is okay, nothing special
[19:17] <apachelogger> step number two tell apachelogger what sorta cpu you have and how much ram ^^
[19:19] <yofel> if it matters, kded4 freezes the same on ma atom n270 and my i7 620M
[19:19] <yofel> s/ma/my
[19:19] <apachelogger> question is, does it freeze or does it just cause excessive load?
[19:20] <eMyller> apachelogger: freeze.
[19:20] <yofel> well, hard to say, I usually don't give it more than a minute or two before I kill it
[19:20] <apachelogger> eMyller: step number two! :P
[19:20] <apachelogger> yofel: run it in gdb
[19:20] <eMyller> apachelogger: after disabling effects, xorg went from ~30 to 5~10
[19:20] <apachelogger> instead of killing it cancel and get me a backtrace of all threads
[19:21] <apachelogger> eMyller: yeah, shitty intel graphics driver
[19:21] <yofel> apachelogger: that gave me a trace from libnm / ntrack, so I hope the ntrack patch helps
[19:21] <eMyller> apachelogger: and kwin disappeared the cpu eaters list :P
[19:21] <apachelogger> yofel: most likely same issue then
[19:21] <eMyller> apachelogger: the one builtin with natty was completely unusable; i'm with the xorg-edgers'
[19:22] <bambee> Until jreznik is back, Can I help for something ?
[19:22] <yofel> now I only need someone to fix bug 765516 and I can ditch wvdial
[19:24] <eMyller> yofel: did you try usb-modeswitch?
[19:24] <yofel> why should I need that? or what does it do?
[19:24] <ScottK> apachelogger: Relatively speaking, Intel graphics in Natty is better than Maverick on all systems I've upgraded.
[19:25] <eMyller> yofel: it makes some usb stuff work like expected
[19:25] <yofel> eMyller: *shrug* - wvdial doesn't complain, so someone should fix NM to use usb-modeswitch then
[19:25] <apachelogger> ScottK: broken crap remains broken crap until it becomes usable crap on my scale
[19:25] <ScottK> Crappage reduction is progress.
[19:25] <apachelogger> and since I need to fiddle about with settings that threshold is not quite reached yet
[19:25] <eMyller> yofel: actually, it comes with natty already
[19:26]  * eMyller just noticed it
[19:26]  * ScottK doesn't think a non-crap video driver exists.
[19:26] <yofel> ture
[19:26] <yofel> *true
[19:26] <eMyller> unfortunately. :\
[19:28] <apachelogger> ScottK: by the time crappage is resolved we wil be using wayland
[19:28] <Daskreech> My 3dfx driver is rock solid I don' know what you are talking bout
[19:29] <mgraesslin> apachelogger: my fear is that we will be using Wayland before the crappage is resolved :-P
[19:29] <apachelogger> oh, that is entirely possible
[19:29] <apachelogger> from one crappage into the next one
[19:29]  * micahg didn't know 3dfx still existed :D
[19:30] <mgraesslin> with the advantage that if driver fails on Wayland everything goes *boom* back to login screen
[19:30] <mgraesslin> micahg: there are I think still drivers around
[19:31] <yofel> cool
[19:31]  * yofel wonders if nouveau will be in a usable state for him when we go to wayland...
[19:31] <mgraesslin> well in a better state than the NVIDIA blob
[19:32] <yofel> well, as long as kwin doesn't tell me it can't enable like half of the effects with nouveau and nouveau stops giving me GPU lockups I'm happy
[19:34] <mgraesslin> yofel: I developed the GLES port on nouveau
[19:34] <apachelogger> oh no, we are all doomed!!!!
[19:34] <yofel> lol
[19:34] <apachelogger> someone get this man a panda or a beagle
[19:34]  * yofel trusts mgraesslin in that regard 11
[19:34] <yofel> s/11/^^
[19:50]  * eMyller wonders what's 3dfx
[19:50] <Quintasan> apachelogger: ping
[19:50] <apachelogger> Quintasan: hai
[19:51] <Quintasan> apachelogger: in C
[19:51] <apachelogger> printf("hello\n");
[19:51] <eMyller> apachelogger: xorg stays at 10~15% when i use xrender.
[19:52] <eMyller> open gl has been a pain since maverick :\
[19:52] <Quintasan> if I do a -> char name[50]; strcpy(name, "Michal"); <-- this will also copy \0 to the end of the array, right?
[19:52] <eMyller> (maverick is smooth, but has some bugs like the lazy rendering)
[19:52] <Quintasan> apachelogger: ^ but the rest of the array is just wasted space, isn't it?
[19:52] <eMyller> natty doesn't have it anymore, but is slow as hell :P
[19:52] <apachelogger> eMyller: because the intel driver does not actually do opengl for some stuff I understand
[19:53] <apachelogger> so there is essentially no difference between xrender and opengl for intel as both will render vast amounts of the stuff in the cpu
[19:53] <eMyller> lol, didn't know
[19:53]  * Quintasan will try switching to OpenGL render in KWin tomorrow
[19:53] <apachelogger> Quintasan: yes, "" == { '\0' } and yes, the rest of the space is wasted
[19:53] <Quintasan> bleh
[19:53] <Quintasan> sucks,
[19:54] <Quintasan> how do we deal with all that waste of space?
[19:54] <apachelogger> we strlen("Michael") and then allocate an appropriately sized char array using malloc()
[19:55] <Quintasan> this is still build-time decision
[19:55] <apachelogger> Quintasan: the example there is a bit silly though, as you could simply init the char[] with the value
[19:55] <Quintasan> can array size be decided at run time?
[19:55] <Quintasan> oooh
[19:55] <Quintasan> wit
[19:55] <apachelogger> Quintasan: not in a standard compliant way
[19:56] <apachelogger> if you want runtime size you need to malloc the required size
[19:56] <Quintasan> so like this
[19:56] <apachelogger> which allocates the memory on the heap
[19:56] <apachelogger> whereas what you are doing happen on the stack
[19:56] <Quintasan> 1. user inputs name 2. strlen(name) 3. allocate memory for that with malloc ?
[19:56] <apachelogger> what you do on the stack must (for the better part) be decdiable at build time
[19:56] <apachelogger> Quintasan: would be one option
[19:57] <Quintasan> the thing is, let's say most people have names under 50 characters, if someone has 75 characters in his name then using char[50] would simply crash the application
[19:58] <Quintasan> so we would most likley want to make the array size a runtime decision, or there is another way of doing it?
[19:58] <apachelogger> no, runtime is all there is
[19:58] <Quintasan> oh, so my 3 steps idea is just one way of solving that?
[19:59] <apachelogger> in Qt there is also qvararraylength or something like that, but that does not help you right now :P
[19:59] <apachelogger> Quintasan: there are more ways to do input than operating systems ;)
[19:59] <Quintasan> okay, back to book then
[19:59] <Quintasan> Thanks
[20:02] <apachelogger> Quintasan: http://paste.kde.org/72277/ one way of doing it
[20:02] <Quintasan> oh wait, there is a whole chapter on strings, let's leave that for tomorrow then
[20:02] <apachelogger> you get char by char and add it to a string, which is allways bulk allocated
[20:03] <Quintasan> That's the super-safe method
[20:03] <Quintasan> ?
[20:03] <apachelogger> e.g. the string initially has an allocation of 64, if we run low on space we alloc another 64 and so on
[20:03] <apachelogger> Quintasan: it is one of the most lowlevel approaches
[20:04] <Quintasan> Can one somehow cause overflow with this one?
[20:04] <apachelogger> no
[20:04] <Quintasan> :D
[20:04] <apachelogger> line 21 to 25
[20:04] <apachelogger> if we run out of memory on the heap we error away
[20:05] <Quintasan> running out of memory while inputing a name is not most likely to happen :D
[20:06] <Quintasan> apachelogger: oh gawd, thanks
[20:06]  * Quintasan goes to pack his books for tomorrow
[20:07] <Quintasan> see you tomorrow, most likely I will show up in the morning since we don't have physics tomorrow :P
[20:07] <apachelogger> well, if someone wanted to trigger an overflow to  do evil things they could still do it via the heap, as the stack on most architectures starts at high address and grows downwards, meaning the heap starts at the lowest address and grows upwards, since you'd constantly need to allocate a consistant block of data you might at some point reach the lower end of the stack and if not handled properly the text input could then be written into 
[20:07] <apachelogger> stack memory
[20:08] <apachelogger> (assuming the OS does not detect that and shoots the application in the head)
[20:08] <apachelogger> rather theoretical though as there are multiple factors playing into that
[21:28] <yuriy_work> upgraded to Natty today. everything went smoothly *thumbs up*
[21:37] <shadeslayer> seaLne: around?
[21:50] <Rioting_Pacifist> Where should I voice my oposition to the removing of the altCD ?
[21:50] <shadeslayer> Rioting_Pacifist: on the mailing list i guess
[21:50] <shadeslayer> it's still being built, just not for final releases
[21:50] <ScottK> Rioting_Pacifist: When you do, please explain what your use case is that requires it.
[21:51] <shadeslayer> i was going to say that ;) ^^
[21:51] <ScottK> Rioting_Pacifist: It'd also be nice if you'd volunteer to test it if you want it.
[21:51] <ScottK> shadeslayer: There's lots of stuff you 'were going to do'.
[21:52] <shadeslayer> ScottK: is there anything i can do in the next 10 minutes?
[21:53] <shadeslayer> btw what is the state of our Armel packages ? i mean do we check if they build successfully or not?
[21:53] <apachelogger> triage a bug, translate a couple of strings, write a blog post, write a micro blog post, find out about upstream plans for kmix, find us target devices for kubuntu tablet, 
[21:53] <apachelogger> ...
[21:53] <apachelogger> make your choice
[21:53] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: looking at the sate of armel kde packages right now
[21:54] <shadeslayer> and looks like everything is properly built
[21:54] <shadeslayer> no build failiures i mean
[21:54] <shadeslayer> target device for kubuntu tablet ... hmmm
[21:54] <shadeslayer> i haz a idea ... one sec
[21:55] <apachelogger> ok, let me rephrase that
[21:55] <apachelogger> "find us a sponsor for target devices for kubuntu tablet"
[21:55] <shadeslayer> ah :P
[21:55]  * apachelogger shakes his head
[21:55] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i want to see Kubuntu on this : http://www.notionink.com/design.php
[21:56]  * apachelogger wants to see Kubuntu on the A380
[21:56] <Rioting_Pacifist> ScottK: unless I'm mistaken the liveCD contains no debs, so to install a minimal system one has to mess around with chroots and debootstrap. The alternate installCD contains debs and so can be used to recover systems, it makes an easy minimal install base.
[21:57] <apachelogger> you cannot do minimal installs using the alternate CD, can you?
[21:57] <apachelogger> I mean unless you fiddle with the d-i
[21:57] <apachelogger> in which case you might as well mess with the server d-i
[21:58] <apachelogger> that said you can also mess with the dvd d-i
[21:58] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i'll talk to my prof who might be able to arrange some devices ....
[21:59] <Rioting_Pacifist> again it has been a while since i did a fresh install but i belive the kubuntu alt installer has all the debs that a kubuntu install has so you can install offline/quickly aslong as what you install is a subset of kubuntu
[21:59] <shadeslayer> my dist upgrade is broken :'(
[21:59] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: you can install offline from the livecd
[21:59] <apachelogger> the livcd is nothing more than the extracted debs
[22:00] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: you can only install an image of the livecd, you can't install anything but the whole selection
[22:00] <afiestas> Guys: http://kde.mirror.aussiehq.net.au/stable/kamoso/2.0/src/ :p
[22:01] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: that is why the DVD has the debian-installer on board
[22:01] <apachelogger> afiestas: fake
[22:01] <afiestas> apachelogger: uh?
[22:01] <apachelogger> it is austrian, must be fake ^^
[22:01] <apachelogger> :D :D :D
[22:01] <afiestas> xD
[22:01] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: there, 5 minutes to update kamoso
[22:01] <apachelogger> go!
[22:01] <afiestas> gogo! :p
[22:01] <shadeslayer> what about kamoso?
[22:01] <shadeslayer> oh
[22:02] <yuriy_work> apachelogger: the airplane?
[22:02] <shadeslayer> new version?
[22:02] <shadeslayer> looking
[22:02] <apachelogger> yuriy_work: yes
[22:02] <afiestas> shadeslayer: minor update, from RC to final
[22:02] <shadeslayer> ah thats doable
[22:02] <afiestas> couple of crashes fixed when using kamoso without webcam 
[22:02] <afiestas> xd
[22:04] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: DVD is big, slow and requires a DVD burner and reader. the alternative CD is useful for recovering broken systems as it has all the debs, the liveCD is useless for anything other than installing/testing. As the debs already exist what is the advantage to removing a useful tool and making users looking for a minimal install go to another distro? 
[22:05] <apachelogger> I do not quite get that argument
[22:05] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: what repairs would you be doing?
[22:05] <kubu2> Rioting_Pacifist: if you want minimal and able to select then mini.iso or  netboot is for you 
[22:08] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger:  reinstalling packages due to a broken xorg/kernel/kdm or wifi drivers, It's possible the liveCD is more useful now but I always stick with the alt as I know it has them plug it's been tested for more as a result of using d-i
[22:09] <Rioting_Pacifist> kubu2: I didn't even realise there was a mini.iso or netboot, they arn't mentioned anywhere on the kubuntu site, plus neither of these have the core kubuntu packages on them in order to repair an install
[22:11] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: broken kernel -> you have the old kernel in your grub, xorg is repairable from within the system, so is kdm
[22:16] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: Trust me I know how to break a system, i'm sure if xorg is broken due to a driver conflict (I know the radeon drivers are packaged in such a way this can happen) it can leave you without any CLI making it very difficult to repair or perhaps I'd messed the permissions up on my entire / partition ( I know there are other ways to fix that but most need a second pc)
[22:16] <kubu2> Rioting_Pacifist: bec (I'm guessing) the live cd is  'minimal' to a Kubuntu distro
[22:17] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: fglrx?
[22:18] <kubu2> Rioting_Pacifist: have you heard of the recovery mode boot in grub? It gives you a CLI
[22:19] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: no just radeon, the subdrivers don't depend on the ati driver but do provide drivers to xorg
[22:19] <apachelogger> which for that matter also works when graphics driver is broken
[22:19] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: recovery mode is what will work then
[22:20] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: ati driver has not seen updates in a release since hardy
[22:20] <apachelogger> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-ati
[22:21] <shadeslayer> okay so i have a oneiric package ... do i backport to natty as well?
[22:21] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger:  recovery mode will not fix the broken permissions issue, nor afaik will it reinstall the radeon drivers, both these situations (and many more) are however easily fixed using the alt CD
[22:21] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: sure, why not
[22:21] <shadeslayer> alright
[22:22] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: recovery mode drops you into a root shell, where permission issues are of no concern and gives you the same abilities as you would have with an alternate cd
[22:22] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: where is the annoy-rick package?
[22:22] <shadeslayer> oh
[22:22] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: it doesn't have the debs, so there is no way to reinstall something that is not in your cache
[22:22] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: https://launchpad.net/~rohangarg/+archive/kde-extra/+packages
[22:23] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: and i think i forgot to copy the akunambol package to your ppa
[22:23] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: you do however have network access
[22:24]  * shadeslayer copies akunambol packages
[22:24] <kubu2> Rioting_Pacifist: not sure what you are trying to do but when fixing a broken system everything is done by hand, and you can do it with live cd or in the recovery mode
[22:25] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: only if 1) I have network access 2) I haven't broken my wifi adapters (which if i removed +x from modprobe i certainly did) 3) know how to connect up to a wireless network with just the CLI
[22:26] <apachelogger> so you carry the alternate cd around with you everywhere you go?
[22:26] <apachelogger> if you mess with executability of modeprobe you should know how to get on a network from a terminal.
[22:26] <kubu2> if you have wireless acess point then why don't you use the ethernet?
[22:26] <Rioting_Pacifist> kubu2: I'm trying to point out that having all the debs from a default install of kubuntu avalible on once disk in deb format is useful and removing a well tested installer (d-i) isn't going to benefit users
[22:27] <apachelogger> d-i is not getting removed
[22:27] <apachelogger> it still is on the dvd
[22:27] <apachelogger> and as far as recoverability without intarwebs goes, I'd say that dvd is a way better medium than cd anyway
[22:27] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: yes, well I don't carry it arround but I always have a copy of altCD in my cd wallet as it is much more useful than the liveCD to fix broken systems
[22:28] <kubu2> Rioting_Pacifist: not so as it's easy to get the debs once network is set
[22:28] <apachelogger> as by breaking dependency chains you can rip an even bigger hole in the system
[22:28] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: so why don't you have a usb stick with the dvd?
[22:29] <apachelogger> oh actually
[22:29] <apachelogger> regarding the highlighted cases ... livecd is better to repair if network is available
[22:29] <Rioting_Pacifist> kubu2: downloading 700+ mbs of data isn't always easy, nor is using a DVD as not all PCs have modern hardware. 
[22:29] <apachelogger> because then the executablility of modprobe is not important, nor is knowing how to access the intarwebs from a terminal
[22:29] <apachelogger> as you can connect using the livcd, chroot into the broken install and fix things comfortably
[22:30] <kubu2> why 700+mb? just get the debs you need.  Your altCD would be outdated vs. to waht you have installed
[22:31] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: a liveCD repair requires chrooting and downloading all the packages again, because the files on the liveCD are useless for anything other than an install. Maybe you guys come from the land of free bandwidth but an altCD has always been a useful tool for me and getting rid of it just because it's not required for luks installation anymore doesn't seem like a good idea
[22:32] <apachelogger> that is not the reason we want to get rid of it
[22:32] <apachelogger> we want to get rid of it because no one gives a rats arse about QAing it
[22:32] <apachelogger> and we do not want to release untested distribution media
[22:33] <apachelogger> of course the fact that there is no particularly sensible use case around anymore supports the whole idea rather a lot
[22:33] <apachelogger> to that extent
[22:34] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: nothing is stopping you from getting an alternate daily image at release day, or before that and use that
[22:34] <kubu2> download all pkgs?? looks like you are trying a full install instead of a repair.
[22:34] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: natty backport in the same ppa
[22:37] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: natty backport will have to be filed with ubuntu-backports project
[22:38] <shadeslayer> righto
[22:38] <apachelogger> nothing I can do about that
[22:38] <shadeslayer> looking into that
[22:39] <apachelogger> one-eye-rick package looks good
[22:39] <apachelogger> -- Installing: /build/buildd/kamoso-2.0/debian/kamoso/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/actions/./youtube.png
[22:39] <shadeslayer> hmm?
[22:39] <apachelogger> afiestas: you might want to consider making that kamoso-youtube or youtube-kamoso or move it to oxygen 
[22:40] <apachelogger> as to avoid future conflicts in case someone else decides to install that icon too
[22:42] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: can't i specify that i want to upgrade kamoso and not my entire system?
[22:43] <apachelogger> what?
[22:43] <shadeslayer> upgrade wants to update all the packages, i want to upgrade just kamoso
[22:43] <apachelogger> install kamoso
[22:44] <shadeslayer> oh hmm
[22:51] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: how much QA is really needed? how many bugs were reported against the altCD for any recent release, far less i suspect than the LiveCD. d-i is well tested (much more than ubiquity), the packages are well tested, as long as the cd is being built by the same build system as ubuntu's altCD. The AltCD is still the recomened way to install ubuntu on low end systems, a good recovery tool (imo), a good minimal 
[22:51] <Rioting_Pacifist> installer (imho) and a fallback if for whatever reason the main iso will not work on your system. Obviously a decision has already been made so I will stop arguing with you, but I strongly belive it is the wrong one
[22:52] <apachelogger> no decision was made until the kubuntu council makes a decision
[22:52] <apachelogger> Rioting_Pacifist: also the alternate cd is not the recommended medium for low end systems
[22:53] <apachelogger> even on the lowest possible supported setup by kubuntu ubiquity should work
[22:53] <apachelogger> if it does not, then kubuntu will not work properly either
[22:53] <apachelogger> it certainly isn't minimal as it installs exactly the same software set as the livecd
[22:54] <shadeslayer> ScottK: bug 784296
[22:55] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: not if you use the d-i and select less than the full install (this is like doing a net install but works without the net)
[22:55] <apachelogger> a use case matched by the dvd
[22:56] <shadeslayer> okay i'm off now
[22:56] <shadeslayer> cya
[22:57] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: only if you can afford to use 3.2GB of data, have a DVD burner and have a PC with a DVD drive. DVDs are not ubiquitous and bandwidth is not free
[22:58] <apachelogger> you do not need a dvd, you can use a usb stick
[22:58] <apachelogger> and if bandwith is a concern than you want netinstall anyway
[22:58] <apachelogger> no point in downloading 700mib if you are only installing 500
[23:00] <Rioting_Pacifist> apachelogger: last time i tried doing that it wasn't simple. a CD can be reinstalled/installed multiple times so in low bandwidth situations you are better of with the altCD
[23:01] <apachelogger> in low bandwith situations you are better off with the livecd and remove stuff you do not need
[23:01] <apachelogger> personally I do not see why you would reinstall the same version of a release
[23:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: oh forgot something, should we register a project on pandaboard.org regarding porting of Kubuntu to OMAP 4?
[23:05] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: what for?
[23:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: http://pandaboard.org/content/projects
[23:05] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: what for?
[23:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: to tell people that we might work on it later on?
[23:06] <apachelogger> so we register it when we start working on it
[23:06] <shadeslayer> right, but i've seen projects that haven't been started and yet have registered there
[23:06] <apachelogger> so?
[23:06] <apachelogger> what is the gain for us?
[23:07] <shadeslayer> no gain for us as such :P
[23:07] <apachelogger> then I donotcare(tm)
[23:07] <shadeslayer> ok really gone now
[23:27] <apachelogger> didn't we fix bug 784241 in mav?
[23:29] <DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: I thought so.
[23:29] <apachelogger> burn it, burn it with fire!
[23:29] <apachelogger> probably not applied in natty
[23:30] <DarkwingDuck> Who would it be? :P
[23:31] <apachelogger> oh no
[23:31] <apachelogger> different issue
[23:31] <apachelogger> don't quite sure I understand it though
[23:31] <apachelogger> s/don't/not
[23:31] <apachelogger> shell is made out of ugly
[23:32] <DarkwingDuck> I'm not suite sure I'm following...
[23:33] <DarkwingDuck> Okay, I think what he is saying is that on some netbooks it doesn't auto detect settings.
[23:33] <apachelogger> no
[23:33] <apachelogger> the message is just dash's way of saying screw you
[23:33] <DarkwingDuck> :D
[23:34] <apachelogger> doesn't mean it fails, just that it does not like the code
[23:34] <apachelogger> stupid thing
[23:34] <apachelogger> should be more like java and just don't give a butterfly
[23:34] <DarkwingDuck> Ot like Perl and it doens't even check
[23:35] <DarkwingDuck> It'll "guess"
[23:36]  * apachelogger calls the arrm
[23:37] <apachelogger> ok
[23:38] <apachelogger> I am not sure we actually want to go by the return code of laptop-detect
[23:38] <DarkwingDuck> vvvvvvvvvv                                                                 ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
[23:38] <apachelogger> oh
[23:38] <apachelogger> we do
[23:38] <apachelogger>  Possible return values:
[23:38] <apachelogger>   0  most likely running on a laptop
[23:38] <apachelogger>   1  most likely NOT running on a laptop
[23:38] <apachelogger>   2  called with unknown option, -h, --help, -V or --version
[23:38] <apachelogger> who wrote that code :P
[23:38] <apachelogger> someone did not read the manual ^^
[23:38] <apachelogger> RTFM FTW
[23:45] <apachelogger> seems a bit tricky that change
[23:46] <DarkwingDuck> What manual?
[23:46] <apachelogger> DarkwingDuck: the one of laptop-detect
[23:47]  * DarkwingDuck nods
[23:47] <DarkwingDuck> where are these programming manuals? :P