[01:22] <coz_> hey guys
[01:33] <coz_> zniavre,  are you running pinguy 4 ?
[09:10] <zniavre> doctormo, you were right it's 58ligne of .py
[09:10] <zniavre> lines*
[10:25] <zniavre> http://i.imgur.com/xBZgu.png
[19:05] <vish> hmm.. troy_s crashed my system!! ?;
[19:05] <vish> ;)
[19:05] <troy_s> vish: Probably.
[19:05] <troy_s> vish: How you been?
[19:06] <vish> troy_s: just been busy.. was at the UDS last week..
[19:06] <troy_s> vish: How did that go?
[19:06] <troy_s> vish: <EDITED OUT COMMENT>
[19:07] <vish> troy_s: well, wasnt a very productive/exciting one..
[19:07] <troy_s> vish: Why not?
[19:08] <vish> troy_s: nothing new, and the design team has their own pre-UDS sprint so a lot of their stuff gets discussed earlier
[19:08] <troy_s> vish: Sure. And then we end up with the mockeries.
[19:09] <vish> troy_s: one interesting thing was they were interested in getting community folks to take over the community wallpaper task, but i didnt get any takers..
[19:09] <vish> troy_s: ha that too.. ;)
[19:09] <troy_s> vish: Why bother with community wallpapers exactly?
[19:10] <troy_s> vish: I think it is cutting to the crux of the issue.
[19:10] <vish> well, there are people who get worry and do blog posts about them, so wondered if they might have been interested.. ;)
[19:10] <vish> s/get//
[19:10] <troy_s> vish: That the core of the issue is a cultural one. Hard to frame really.
[19:11] <vish> troy_s: well, i'm pretty much at the point of giving up about the culture.. it aint gonna happen, atleast in Ubuntu..
[19:11] <vish> not* in
[19:11] <troy_s> vish: One has to ask oneself if, as a culture, it is a culture worth participating in. Speaking entirely personally, one that establishes zero voice just has zero interest.
[19:11] <troy_s> vish: Exactly.
[19:11] <troy_s> vish: Which is, I believe, a common line.
[19:12] <troy_s> vish: Practically, if the goal is to really ignore the socio / philosophical implications (The very things that _might_ be interesting to a creative), then why not just jump on the wagon of the thing that is making far more progress - Android?
[19:13] <vish> *nod*
[19:13] <troy_s> vish: It's a curious scenario. Android is actually moving ahead with compelling design (see Honeycomb) and has done so in a year. That should be shameful to everyone in Libre.
[19:13] <troy_s> vish: In parallel, even the Playbook delivers a degree of experience that is leagues ahead of Libre. Again, a year.
[19:13] <troy_s> vish:  So something here is broken.
[19:14] <vish> troy_s: i dont think HoneyComb was designed by a Libre/Open Community
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: And all the buzzword drops of 'design' this and 'design' that around these parts cannot escape the brutal reality that they are outclassed in terms of mindforce.
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: It wasn't. But neither was Unity really.
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: But the teams are very small.
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: So there is some similarity there.
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: The difference is in the people.
[19:15] <troy_s> vish: And culture.
[19:15] <troy_s> vish: I have zero doubt that there are talented folks here. Zero.
[19:15] <troy_s> vish: So that begs the inevitable question, what is going wrong?
[19:15] <troy_s> vish: (If in fact one seeks to define it as wrong. Again, this is all models and many don't see anything wrong. So be it.)
[19:16] <troy_s> vish: I don't know. No easy answers as usual. In terms of progress, I suppose the best we could expect is an analysis. Don't see much of that either. Mostly still the same cult of ZOMGAWESOME and DONOTWANT.
[19:17] <troy_s> vish: Which is so infuriating it just drives me to apathy.
[19:17] <vish> troy_s: I've just come to a conclusion that Open design culture can not be brewed.. there seems to be a problem at both ends, people who have the power dont understand and people who have the talent dont settle for seconds
[19:18] <troy_s> vish: I am not so pessimistic. But somewhere, there needs to be analysis. Some sort of examination of things beyond the bloody universals of "Good" "Bad" and that absolutely destructive word "Usability"
[19:18] <vish> "usability" my a$$ ;p , no one really knows exactly what it is, everyone right now is just best guessing stuff..
[19:19] <troy_s> vish: If it were only as easy as "doing good work" the job would be done. The culture and the contextual environment needs to permit it. Need to think of a good example.
[19:19] <troy_s> vish: (It doesn't exist for the love of all things good and pure. It doesn't exist. Not in the universal sense for certain. It is a byproduct, and people chase it as though it is a cause.)
[19:21] <troy_s> vish: (And not the least of which is the experiential side of it, perhaps the biggest and most glaring missing component of Unity. Does Unity do anything _that_ radically offensive? Not quite. Does it bring anything to the table? Not quite. But does it deliver a compelling experience to _any_ audience? I dare say in no uncertain terms, no. Plus one on going about it in their own way though. GNOME3 and the rest need more challenging.)
[19:22] <vish> troy_s: the more annoying thing right now, is the Unity / Shell split.. :/  utter nonsense
[19:22] <troy_s> vish: If you and I were to sit down and say, chat about art, I'd think we can see a good example. (1) We are about to do it and agree to. That is predicated on actually caring about it. (2) The types of things we would bring to the table would be radically different than say, PersonX and Y. Those are concrete differences that cannot be avoided. You cannot simply assume that process will dictate the same results purely on process.
[19:23] <troy_s> vish: I've been reading more and more Foucault and Derrida again. It is shocking how on point they are and relevant.
[19:23] <troy_s> vish: Derrida's challenge that "there is nothing outside of the text" really shows the absurdity of our very situation.
[19:23] <troy_s> vish: Are you familiar with Derrida and that statement?
[19:23] <vish> nope..
[19:24] <troy_s> vish: (From Wikipedia on Deconstructionism) One of the definitions of what is called deconstruction would be the effort to take this limitless context into account, to pay the sharpest and broadest attention possible to context, and thus to an incessant movement of recontextualization.
[19:25] <troy_s> vish: "Everywhere in these texts, the devaluation of writing showed to be "insistent, repetitive, even obscurely compulsive," and "the sign of a whole set of long-standing constraints. These constraints were practised at the price of contradictions, of denials, of dogmatic decrees."
[19:27] <troy_s> vish: The latter portion of that last one is relevant here - that there are accepted beliefs that are being perpetuated unwritten and unsaid.
[19:28] <vish> yea..
[19:28] <troy_s> vish: I find it quite interesting. Practically, there are probably some interesting projects to look at.
[19:29] <troy_s> vish: GIMP versus Blender, for example, in terms of community and cultures.
[19:29] <troy_s> vish: What do you think of the two?
[19:30] <vish> troy_s: i havent looked into those communities, all i have seen are some of the work done by those communities when thorwil posted links
[19:31] <troy_s> vish: What have you found interesting of late? Anything in particular?
[19:31] <vish> troy_s: of late, its more of loosing interest.. :)
[19:32] <troy_s> vish: I didn't say subject. ;) That can't be across the board.
[19:32] <vish> ;)
[19:33] <troy_s> vish: Well?
[19:35] <vish> troy_s: hmm, weird, now that you ask that, i think I've been on a mundane routine.. :s
[19:36]  * vish needs to find something !!
[19:36] <thorwil> routine kills
[19:37] <vish> lol!!
[19:37] <vish> could probably try going the "Dexter" route..
[19:38] <vish> principled killing! ;)
[19:38] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[19:38] <thorwil> hi troy_s
[19:40] <troy_s> Well this is rousing.
[19:40] <thorwil> today i made an offering to a client who really really wanted some fixed numbers, despite my stated problems of too many unknowns. minutes after they said OK, i learned that what i though was set in stone already is to be changed, pulling the carpet from under my estimates :)
[19:40] <troy_s> Egads.
[19:43] <vish> thorwil: fire the client! ;)
[19:43] <thorwil> heh
[19:52] <thorwil> from one the people involved with Sintel: http://www.entoforms.com/
[19:58] <vish> ooh! Sintel was an adorable short.
[19:59] <troy_s> Little corndog for my liking. And not terribly well crafted. A production run amok really.
[20:01]  * vish liked the ending, somehow i seem to be attracted to the tragic ones :D
[20:02] <troy_s> It was just a ... nerdy cliche really.
[20:02] <troy_s> More frustrated with Sintel than any of the others.
[20:03] <troy_s> I can appreciate the potential for two directions... namely one where a voice is presented and another where there isn't really a voice and it is more a show of ability.
[20:03] <troy_s> But it seems to fail on both of those fronts.